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LimeWire Countersues Record Industry

By Scott M. Fulton, III, BetaNews

September 27, 2006, 12:57 AM

UPDATED The proprietors of the P2P file-sharing program LimeWire, who were sued last August by a coalition of the major names in the recording industry, has filed a countersuit in the U.S. District Court in New York, claiming that the RIAA is using its copyrights over recorded works as a weapon to disable competition from anyone in the Internet distribution business.

But anti-competitive behavior is not the counter-claimant's principal defense. First, Lime Group argues that LimeWire is unlike Napster -- whose original incarnation lost its legal battle and was forced to shutdown -- in that Lime's software does not rely on a centralized server to warehouse its directory of sharable files.

Instead, the directory itself is assembled by each user based on a P2P distributed query of other users' available content. That fact, Lime Group claims, relieves it from being held accountable as a broker for potentially illegal transactions.

"Users who install LimeWire on their computers do so by their own volition," the countersuit reads, "and are only able to install the LimeWire application if they first agree not to use the application to infringe the copyrights of others. Thereafter, those persons make use of LimeWire in the manner that they alone choose."

From that point, the countersuit explains that the original plaintiffs -- Arista Records, Atlantic Recording, BMG Music, Capitol Records, Elektra Entertainment, Interscope, LaFace, Motown, Priority, Sony BMG, UMG, Virgin Records, and Warner Bros. -- "joined together and embarked on a scheme to cartelize [the digital music] market and its financial promise for themselves."

"Their goal was simple: to destroy any online music distribution service they did not own or control, or force such services to do business with them on exclusive and/or other anticompetitive terms so as to limit and ultimately control the distribution and pricing of digital music, all to the detriment of consumers," the suit reads.

It may be a difficult case to make, especially given the abundance of analysts' opinions in recent years that digital music distribution was actually a boat that the music industry didn't see coming.

After technology company MetaMachine, which produced services for file-sharing group eDonkey, settled with the RIAA two weeks ago, RIAA CEO Mitch Bainwol made a public claim that LimeWire would be the next domino to fall.

If LimeWire can't be held accountable for its lack of a centralized file directory, the RIAA made a case that it might be held accountable because it knows who its users are. And if individuals are compelled to use LimeWire because they can trade in illegal materials, then Lime Group may be complicit.

"Defendants have the right and ability to supervise and control the infringing activities of LimeWire users on Defendants' system/network," stated the August RIAA complaint. "For example, Defendants can view searches on LimeWire, and view what is being 'shared' via LimeWire at a given time. Defendants provide the LimeWire software to users, distribute updates and upgrades, and have dictated license terms governing the use of the software."

A 2005 paper by Microsoft Research technicians looking into the relative security of users on P2P file-sharing systems, which the paper termed the "Darknet," alleged that P2P systems built on Gnutella technology (LimeWire is one of them) may be vulnerable due to the fact that its users are not necessarily anonymous.

A malicious user could conceivably trace users' endpoints. Such an argument could end up hurting LimeWire legally, if it can be proven that LimeWire can affectively re-assemble a list of its users at any given time, and perhaps take a look at what files they're sharing. In fact, plaintiffs could allege, if LimeWire fails to do so, it may be condoning file-sharing violations indirectly.

In its countersuit, Lime Group claims it tried to establish a paid subscription model site using a derivative of its technology, called MagnetMix, where subscribers download licensed content. But certain of the original plaintiffs declined to participate, Lime Group said, citing the fact that Lime didn't use the recording companies' preferred method for digital rights management.

It then alleges that the recording industry has colluded to set up a "preferred" P2P service provider called iMesh, which the RIAA then demanded that companies such as Lime make deals with, or else face the threat of lawsuit.

"iMesh is allegedly the only 'authorized' P2P file-sharing company in the U.S.," states Lime Group's countersuit (although there clearly are others). "It claims to have been granted a license by the Major Labels to allow distribution of their content, and also offers a 'one-stop shop' for what iMesh promotes as the only RIAA-approved filtering mechanism."

The countersuit alleges that iMesh's CEO was the former CEO of the RIAA. In fact, Jason Berman, the former RIAA CEO -- which the suit did not name specifically -- stepped down from the RIAA in November 2005, and later was appointed Chairman Emeritus of the International Federation of the Recording Industry, which represents recording companies in international courts. Mr. Berman made that fact clear to us in an e-mail to BetaNews Wednesday afternoon.

Berman did join the board of directors of Wurld Media, which operates a P2P licensed download service, also contradicting the countersuit's claim that iMesh was established to be the only such service. He also serves on the board of directors of Loudeye, which manages a catalog of licensed digital music.

iMesh was reportedly the subject of a British Phonographic Industry investigation in 2004, grouped together at that time with KaZaa, Grokster, and others suspected of facilitating the trade of illegal material. Among those lending their voices in favor of the investigation, at that time, was Jason Berman, acting in his parallel role at the time with the IFRI.

Since then, iMesh has re-established itself as "the first peer-to-peer service to work proactively with the recording industry to transition its offering to an authorized environment."

"iMesh's and the RIAA's goal is to have these P2P companies concede, under the threat of expensive litigation, to sell their assets for essentially nothing, with the promise of a 'get out of jail free' card from the RIAA," the countersuit continues. "In return, the P2P company must simply turn over its user base (which is the single largest asset typically) to iMesh so they can then force a conversion to the iMesh platform which, in turn, will lead to huge profits to iMesh and, of course, the Major Labels."

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By batteryfast

posted Nov 9, 2008 - 11:34 PM

Berman did join the board of directors of Wurld Media, which operates a P2P licensed download service, also contradicting the countersuit's claim that iMesh was established to be the only such service. He also serves on the board of directors of Loudeye, which manages a catalog of licensed digital music.

iMesh was reportedly the subject of a British Phonographic Industry investigation in 2004, grouped together at that time with KaZaa, Grokster, and others suspected of facilitating the trade of illegal material. Among those lending their voices in favor of the investigation, at that time, was Jason Berman, acting in his parallel role at the time with the IFRI.

Since then, iMesh has re-established itself as "the first peer-to-peer service to work proactively with the recording industry to transition its offering to an authorized environment."

"iMesh's and the RIAA's goal is to have these P2P companies concede, under the threat of expensive litigation, to sell their assets for essentially nothing, with the promise of a 'get out of jail free' card from the RIAA," the countersuit continues. "In return, the P2P company must simply turn over its user base (which is the single largest asset typically) to iMesh so they can then force a conversion to the iMesh platform compaq e500s battery compaq v300 battery compaq v500 battery which, in turn, will lead to huge profits to iMesh and, of course, the Major Labels."

Score: 0

By roguechild

edited Dec 2, 2006 - 12:50 PM

Who holds telephone companies liable for someone conducting illegal business over the lines? Who holds automobile companies liable if I buy a car, drink then drive and kill someone? Do we tell gun companies to sell bullets that only shoot animals and not harm people? Of course not...this is absurd...people should be held accountable for their actions...How can we hold a company accountable for the actions of individuals. If one student harms another with an pencil or a pen supplied by a teacher, is the school accountable? The concept is simple...if there's a legal need for a product, service, etc and someone chooses to do something illegal with it, blame the individual and hold them accountable for their actions...if not, what kind of society do we live in where I can do something with a product it was not origianlly intended for and, when I get in trouble, say "i didn't know i wasn't supposed to do that, it was the makers who didn't tell me"...either we, as a society, are very stupid, or our judicial systems are even more stupid...please start labeling shoestrings to ensure I don't try to hang myself as that's not what they are intended for!!!

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By NOELECTORAL COLLEGE

edited Oct 5, 2006 - 2:58 AM

WE AS A NATION NEED TO BAN THE RIAA, SPREAD THE WORD TO AS MANY PEOPLE AS YOU CAN (YES YOU), DO NOT BUY THEIR MUSIC OR PRODUCTS THIS UPCOMING HOLIDAY SEASON, IT IS DUE TIME FOR THIS CORRUPT, BRIANWASHING INDUSTRY TO GO DOWN, IN ORDER TO INSPIRE/PROMOTE NEW, ACTUALLY TALENTED, NON-COMMERCIALIZED TRUE ARTISTS. RAISE YOUR VOICE!!! Limewire may go down but many more free P2Ps still exist and many more are to come check out the tvuplayer download www.viidoo.com (free TV)

Score: 0

By pbarrett

posted Oct 2, 2006 - 2:56 PM

I believe that these art forms should be shared with everyone, if an artist says its hurting them they are just hurting themselves, for they are not truly artists. There are millions of artists out there whom nobody knows of and they would be honored to have just a few hundred people experience there art.

This is why P2P sharing is good and always will be good, ideas should be free not sold and locked in a plastic forcefield imposible to open.

Give the artist credit where credit is due.
Go to a concert/show, buy an album/copy, or even just donate.

Now if I were to make copies and go out the street corner and sell copies that would be wrong and then it would be just to sue me for stealing.

Screw the system, oops I was supposted to say sue.

Score: 0

By hellrazor238

posted Sep 29, 2006 - 4:55 PM

RIAA is crap they wont due nothing to limewire
long live limewire the most honest and best p2p out there

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By GordieT

posted Sep 28, 2006 - 9:38 AM

I'm confused as to why the RIAA didn't sue SONY? When I was 14 I used to use my stereo made by SONY to record songs from the radio? Damn that SONY for enabling me to do something illegal.

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By huttman

posted Sep 28, 2006 - 10:57 AM

i just recorded that and am going to make that my sig on another forum. you gonna sue me? :P

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By GordieT

posted Sep 28, 2006 - 12:14 PM

It's a public forum. Knock youself out.

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By Pegusis2

posted Sep 28, 2006 - 8:47 AM

Limewire is a piece of Crap that invites all kinds of problems to your computer. If you want computer problems Use Limewire. I've fixed enough computers in the last 5 years to know that a computer repair person could make a living just off of Limewire Computer Repairs.

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By zridling

posted Sep 28, 2006 - 2:33 AM

Exactly what music am I suspected of downloading — britney, christina, bing crosby, hip-hop? PUH-LEEAZE, I wouldn't touch this corporate crap with your computer. The RIAA is taking the old SCO lawsuit strategy to the nth degree — sue 'em until they beg for mercy, whether you have a case or not. If only the Mafia had practiced this methodical violence over the centuries it could have saved a lot of money on bullets and hammers.

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By Murphmeister

posted Sep 27, 2006 - 11:01 PM

I'm gonna go download a Metallica album in protest!

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By joeshmoe7

edited Sep 28, 2006 - 4:48 AM

As long as you remember to make copies for all your friends and family. Remember, sharing is caring :)

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By Dickens Cider

edited Sep 27, 2006 - 10:09 PM

Somebody mentioned earlier about selling albums for $5. I've been thinking since the Napster debacle, that this was a viable alternative to the RIAA's current way of operating. Most reasonably successful bands have the ability to create their own albums. They could sell them for direct download for a small price (say $5). People could then legally download and listen to the music in whatever format they choose. This would cut out all the lawyers, producers, distribution leeches, and assorted middlemen. The bands would sell more albums. The profit per sale would be considerably more (currently, the profit the band gets, if any, is pennies per album). Fans wouldn't feel ripped off (unless the album sucked), and all this RIAA "Let's sue the competition out of exsistence" crap would be obsolete. So Metallica (and others on that bandwagon) listen up, embrace the technology and use it to your benefit, don't try to 'control' it. - BTW I am a fan of Metallica's music, but NOT the politics....

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By wildmann59

edited Sep 27, 2006 - 5:15 PM

For Years ,since the advent of recorded music fans have listened and shared music. I personally Have paid for about 1600 albums since I was 17 and then I had to rebuy about a third of that amount to keep my
library in the appropiate format(cd's). I do not sell my music to people.
I have a deep respect for the artists who created it. But sharing is another idea, that's how listeners expand their horizons open themselves to alternate trains of thought. Bottom Line I like it ,I'll buy it.
It's not about personal gain, it's about exchange of ideas.

Score: 0

By Pegusis2

posted Sep 28, 2006 - 8:51 AM

100% Agree.

I too have a large collection that I paid for, starting back in about 1978. And yes I've changed my format 3 times... from LP's to Cassettes and now CD. What I've done is made my own personal collection of MP3's and now I've a few CD's that has about 300 songs per and it's like having a Jukebox in my car, press random play and I'm good for quite awhile.

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By TurningWorm

edited Sep 27, 2006 - 2:50 PM

I don't use LimeWire, and don't download mp3 in general, so this doesn't affect me much. It does raise any interesting point though.
No matter which side prevails it seems like this case would have an impact in other industries. The gun lobby comes to mind immediately. They have been fighting for years (and recently finally got legislation passed) that specifically says they are not responsible for the the actions taken by its customers. How can any judge POSSIBLY find this to be a very different scenario?

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By Silentmaster101

posted Sep 28, 2006 - 8:13 AM

what i have a problem with is the company getting pegged for what users are doing. i mean does microsoft or apple(but really only microsoft) get pinned for letting users create and exploit botnets through their os? no. does dodge get pinned when someone runs somebody over with one of their trucks? no. does the maker of twinkies get pinned when some dumba** gorges himself until he cant move anymore? no. Does berretta get pinned when one of their guns is used to murder someone? no. it is dumb as **** to hold the company responsable for the actions of their customers. and there arent stickers on guns saying dont kill someone with this illegally, so why should the company have to go out of their way to say, "dont download music illegally." very simply it is not their problem, or shouldnt be at least, what their customers use their product for. the riaa is killing inovation. nobody else is subject to these standards so why make one little company that made a program.

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By maniakmx3

posted Sep 27, 2006 - 1:32 PM

I hope limewire wins this one! This is majior BS that the RIAA is doing. I use Limewire constantly for one sole purpose. Downloading songs in mp3 format so i can listen to them when I am on my computer. Now I just don't download ANY Songs. For example I just bought the new Rick Ross and Bone Thugs-n-Harmony CDs. I usually leave my CDs in my car since that is where I spend most of my time. I hear a bunch of songs on my cds that I like so I download them onto my computer so I don't have to keep running back n forth between my car n my computer and swapping cds and what not. According to the RIAA I AM allowed to do that. I am allowed to take multiple cds that I own and take several tracks from each cd and complile them onto 1 so I don't have to go through the songs I DO NOT like.

Also, when I heard the new Bone Thugs CD came out I went around everywhere on the web trying to listen to previews, couldn't find anything!!!! So I went to Limewire...Downloaded a few songs from the new CD, Listened, Liked and then went out the next day and bought the CD. I would never have even considered purchasing the CD if I couldn't listen to the songs first. I hate buying a CD Blind and then sticking it in your CD Player and there only be 1 good song on the whole damn thing, and I just spend $20 on it. So yeah...But if you shut limewire down then I won't have any way of Previewing songs on CDs (yeah I might be able to preview the ONLY GOOD SONG ON THE ENTIRE CD on the radio) But I wanna know if the CD is good before I buy it. Same goes for a car, I goto the car lot I'm not just gonna say "Put me in this one" I say "let me test drive it first" exact same thing.

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By huttman

posted Sep 27, 2006 - 1:46 PM

im not against what your doing, im just responding to part of your comment.

You say you want to test drive the car, fine. you want to hear some songs from a full cd, fine.

you downloaded full length songs to your hard drive that you did not pay for.

Are you going to take the steering wheel, the seats, and maybe the gas thats in the tank of that car? maybe place them in your current car?

you downloaded 3 sons from a full cd, added them to your personal collection. Unless you delete them (even if you like them) your stealing, just as you would be taking the steering wheel, seats, and gas.

but hey, like i said, im not bashing what you or anyone else does. tthe only people i will dis are the ones downloading, making cd's and selling them for profit.

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By maniakmx3

posted Sep 27, 2006 - 6:03 PM

Well, I dunno what kind of dealerships you have in your area. But dealerships around here actually let you take the car home for a week and drive it around how you want with it to help further your desision. I can then take the car back if I deside I don't like it, drop it off and take another model of their lot and drive it around for a week, and if I like it I buy it.

Best buy, I can walk alllll around that damn store and play with and try just about anything I want! why can't I do the same with music?

Yes, I do delete the songs from my hard drive when I'm done listening to them, if I don't like them why would I keep them? the way I look at it. It's like a friend of mine buying the CD, I borrow it from him and listen to it, and If I like it I'm going to go buy it.

I'm the kind of person, I hate buying s*** that I don't like or will never use. Plain and simple.

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By huttman

posted Sep 28, 2006 - 2:13 AM

yes but they dont let you keep it. If you did, thats stealing. why is that so hard to understand?

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By Silentmaster101

posted Sep 28, 2006 - 8:16 AM

well lets see he owns the cd so he owns rights to have the mp3, what dont you understand? technically, i could go out and buy an old van halen record for $.50 and download the mp3's legally. and i could keep them as long as i want. the riaa couldnt do anything about it.

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By huttman

edited Sep 28, 2006 - 10:53 AM

you missed the conversation. he is talking about songs he wants to listen to before he buys the cd, please re-read and look at what i am addressing. others understood it so i know im not being too complicated here.

another point to be maid, unless you keep records (i mean receipts) of your downloads for the rest of your life, you would always need to proove you bought that one song. proof that you bought it is taken lightly also.

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By Silentmaster101

posted Sep 28, 2006 - 11:24 AM

sorry missed that part.

on to the second part. i dont need to keep records of anything, just need to keep my original lp's. in america you are innocent until proven guilty, therefor they have to prove that i got my music illegally, not the other way around. if it came to a court case all i have to do is bring my computer and my record collection in to court to prove my innocence. oddly enough, alot of new artists that put out cd's will still put out lp's as well, which cost a good deal less than the cd, like half price or less.

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By Murphmeister

posted Sep 27, 2006 - 10:57 PM

Amen.

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By ds0934

posted Sep 27, 2006 - 3:02 PM

Theft and unauthorized duplication are treated by law very similarly. Just as unauthorized photographs can be (sometimes). In reality however, they are entirely different. One removes the original. The other leaves it intact without any modification whatsoever. This is the dilemna that will last for eternity in the morality arguments over "piracy". It's like arguing over abortion or gun control. It will never be settled to anyone's satisfaction, except, mabye, the RIAA.

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By Silentmaster101

posted Sep 28, 2006 - 11:39 AM

funny thing is that piracy is what the riaa wants us to think of it, cause pirates are bad right? well the truth is it is ip infringement, not piracy. you want to know what piracy is? go down to the carribean and find some real pirates, they will steal your stuff, shoot you, maybye rape you , and sink your ship. they are worse then some dumb kid who is too much of an a** to actualy pay for the stuff he downloads.

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By IceyKola

posted Sep 27, 2006 - 2:23 PM

Blockbuster Music was cool. Where you could listen to CDs before you buy them.

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By maniakmx3

posted Sep 27, 2006 - 6:06 PM

What's a Blockbuster music? lol I've been to blockbusters website and all I see are DVD and games lol.

I've been to sam goody's website and a couple others. Some of them offer only a small clip (like 20 Seconds) of only a few songs. So you can't really get a good sample of the CD.

The only two ways I've found to sample music before you buy it is either P2P like Limewire or goto a Big CD store where they have like their entire sales library on record for listening.

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By AaronDobbins

posted Sep 27, 2006 - 2:14 PM

Your analogy made me laugh out loud, even though it seems extreme it is the same concept, well done!

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By huttman

posted Sep 27, 2006 - 3:32 PM

*bows*

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By imafurby

posted Sep 27, 2006 - 2:32 PM

What made me laugh is the concept of there being even one good song on a Bone Thugs CD.

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By maniakmx3

posted Sep 27, 2006 - 5:59 PM

no, the whole bone thugs CD is good, that's why I bought it. I was saying 1 song on other CDs.

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By IceyKola

posted Sep 27, 2006 - 2:46 PM

I find that very offensive.

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By Silentmaster101

posted Sep 28, 2006 - 3:30 PM

then what are you doing on a public forum?

really, the fact that you take offense to someone saying a "musical group"(cause they really dont play their own music or have any skill so they cant be called a band.)sucks is really dumb, he isnt insulting you, he is insulting them, i dont think anyone short of that "musical group" has any right to be offended by that. Unless of course you were joking, then right on.

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By midfingr

posted Sep 27, 2006 - 12:45 PM

In two countries, the US and Canada, both recording industries commissioned their own studies. In both cases it was found that the people who download music are the ones that go to the stores to buy the CDs. Essentially they are suing the fans. I hope LimeWire makes some noise and wakes up these crusty old farts.

RIAA - here's a good place to start thinking about the 21st century http://www.musiccreators.ca/

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By IceyKola

posted Sep 27, 2006 - 2:16 PM

I would be one of them. I have a subscription to Yahoo! I listen to albums there, and if I like them enough I'll go buy the CD so I can listen in my car at the highest quality I can.

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By The Man

edited Sep 27, 2006 - 1:28 PM

-edit-
damn posting errors

need a critical update for betanews
lol

Score: 0

By PC_Tool

posted Sep 27, 2006 - 2:18 PM

Next article:

Critical Flaw Left Unpatched In Betanews Comment System.

I'd *really* like them to at least address it to us at some point. At least tell us they're aware of it and working on it or something.

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By IceyKola

posted Sep 27, 2006 - 11:55 AM

Here's an idea. I don't know how valid it would be, but it would be a cool experiment.

Sell full albums for $5. That way, many more people will be able to afford them, and not rely on stealing. Would the added number of sales make the companies more money than they are making now with piracy everywhere. OR make better music that's worth buying instead of the same old crap that's everywhere, and it's meaningless, and adds no value by listening to it, just spreading corruption.

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By bobthegoat2001

posted Sep 28, 2006 - 12:58 AM

I know a place where you can buy 'new' albums for $6 and free shipping. The selection is kind of limited, but they still have a decent amount of music there. Email me at 6dollarcds@dodgeit.com and I'll tell you where it's at. (I get a free cd if you do:-)

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By ds0934

posted Sep 27, 2006 - 2:58 PM

I'd vote for cheaper unit pricing. The number of units sold would more than make up for it. The 99 cents-per-song concept proved that.

MPAA shoots themselves in the foot everytime they publish "record" box office earnings. Those are skewed horribly by not converting cost per year, so in many cases, the number of tickets is actually flat compared to a movie 10 years prior, but the revenue is 3x due to higher ticket prices.

RIAA is smart enough to keep their sales figures quiet. However, MTV Cribs is shooting their feet for them. :)

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By DotNet_Coder

posted Sep 27, 2006 - 7:20 PM

The only problem with the whole "lower prices on CDs" thing is this: We are living in and are very much used to the "I want it now" age. People are much more inclined to purchase anything online (music, movies, etc) that they can have in their hands right now. If I have to actually go to a store to buy a CD, it's not worth my time (imho) when I can buy and download the exact content that I am looking for at that moment. Also, what one poster said earlier about liking only one or two songs on a CD makes perfect sense.

IMHO, the whole CD era needs to be done and over with. We have every piece of electronic equipment available now to facilitate electronically stored music and we can broadcast that music to virtually any device. So what is the point of having to buy a CD anymore besides nostalgia (maybe cost of equipment, but prices continually fall as is)?

While I don't agree with DRM as it has been executed up until now, I do agree with the idea of DRM if there could only be a standard (waiting for the sony fanboys to start chiming in about now...)

~dnc

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By Tenoq

posted Sep 27, 2006 - 10:03 PM

Because not enough providers are offering full-quality music digitally. You certainly can't get CD-quality audio from iTunes! Moreover, lossless digital music is quite large in file size - that's a problem in Aus with our pissweak broadband with serious download restrictions. The most common DSL plan here is $30/month - and on that plan, it would take 6-7 hours per album to download, and the first album would cost you $60 in excess usage charges, followed by $90 for each album after that.

Sounds like a good reason to keep CDs around for a bit longer... and that's not even getting into the extra costs for all those hi-fi fans switching to digital. :)

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By mesiex

posted Sep 27, 2006 - 10:34 AM

"Google to Digitize Madrid Library". Books sharing, My God!!!! What a danger!!!!

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By Silentmaster101

posted Sep 28, 2006 - 3:34 PM

huh? las i heard thats what libraries were for. heck i go into my library and ask for them to order a certain cd and they will then i can listen to it to see if i like it, then buy it if i do. if i dont, then heck someone else wont have to ask for it.

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By notta

edited Sep 27, 2006 - 10:26 AM

Watch Cribs on MTV. Does it look like the artists are hurting? I mean Kid Rock has a tractor with a gold plow for pete sake ;;; Sorry for dupe

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By notta

posted Sep 27, 2006 - 10:23 AM

Watch Cribs on MTV. Does it look like the artists are hurting?

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By IceyKola

posted Sep 27, 2006 - 10:20 AM

Why don't they just sue AIM, MSN, and all the other file sharing capable IM programs for providing a platform for users to share files, including copyrighted material?

Go Lime Group! (I still won't use your program though, because I don't want to risk getting an infected file from someone) But I hope someone finally sets the RIAA straight.

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By Rageweaver

posted Sep 27, 2006 - 5:37 PM

I totaly agree.

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By delasteve

edited Sep 27, 2006 - 3:23 PM

At the root of most of this debate is our societal "agreement" on intellectual property; what is its value, should it be protected (how and for how long) and critically who controls the distribution and commerce of that property? To argue against major record labels and the industry taking too much of a share of that property's value is totally legitimate (and welcome in my book) however, to use the excuse of sticking it to "the man" to download or share files illegally seems conveniently self-serving.

check out this video that sets up all sorts of these arguments...

http://law.richmond.edu/ipi/whatdoyouthink.htm

Score: 0

By The Man

edited Sep 27, 2006 - 11:22 AM

"sticking it to "the man""

WHAT!!!!!
:-o

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By delasteve

edited Sep 27, 2006 - 3:29 PM

My apologies...should have written "sticking it to [Kid rock's Golden Shovel of crap]" there I go illegally using your name in my post - the irony.

;-)

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By Rageweaver

edited Sep 27, 2006 - 9:14 AM

Wow. I use LimeWire..And this is retarded. I mean seriously, what will the Record Companies lose buy letting me download a song? I'm poor! I can't afford a CD that I will only listen to for a little while and then put it away. If I want the song, and like the band, and download the song, and still like the band, I might go see a concert! They make money off of that as well. Jesus get over it Record labels, sharable music will never be stopped.

Really though. Think of the people who actually work for a living.

Score: 0

By dhjdhj

posted Sep 27, 2006 - 10:00 AM

If you're poor and you can't afford the CD, then you can't have it! Your inability to pay for something doesn't give you the right to steal it.

The people who created the song, marketed it, performed it, etc... also "actually work for a living".

Score: 0

By Tenoq

posted Sep 27, 2006 - 10:06 PM

But he is not stealing it. He is making a copy of it. Completely different.

If I steal your car instead of buying it, you don't have it anymore. If I copy your car instead of buying the right to copy it, then you're not really inconvenienced, are you?

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By dwaterman

posted Sep 28, 2006 - 12:10 PM

Unless the car is for sale and you continually make free copies... that would reduce the value of the original product.

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By Silentmaster101

posted Sep 28, 2006 - 3:37 PM

but still not stealing now is it? or for that matter, not piracy either. wow it is JUST patent infringement. although that of course isnt any better. they are both on about the same level, but they are NOT the same thing.

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By dwaterman

posted Sep 28, 2006 - 4:33 PM

I was responding to the "inconvenienced" part of his comment. I am aware of the differences...

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By The Man

edited Sep 27, 2006 - 11:25 AM

just because you're poor, doesn't mean you don't work for a living. it just means you haven't learned to take advantage of everyone else, like rich people have.

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By dwaterman

posted Sep 27, 2006 - 9:26 AM

Wow, interesting post... do you like your neighbor's car?

Record companies make money from record sales, the artist makes money from concert ticket sales.

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By The Man

posted Sep 27, 2006 - 11:26 AM

"Wow, interesting post... do you like your neighbor's car?"

and if i did?
maybe i could copy it eh? (wink,wink)

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By dwaterman

posted Sep 27, 2006 - 12:18 PM

That was my fault for using that analogy, but I think the point was clear...

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By The Man

posted Sep 27, 2006 - 1:21 PM

i'd bet you couldn't find an analogy that fits. which leaves the point unclear.

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By dwaterman

posted Sep 27, 2006 - 2:27 PM

So my point wasn't clear? Or do you feel that it was a victory for you because you discredited my analogy? Taking/copying something that doesn't belong to you physical or intellectual does deprive someone somewhere along the lines. That was the point...

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By Tenoq

posted Sep 27, 2006 - 10:08 PM

Taking and copying are not the same thing. I'm not sure why so many of you can't see that.

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By dwaterman

posted Sep 28, 2006 - 11:03 AM

and you point is?

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By Silentmaster101

posted Sep 28, 2006 - 3:39 PM

it has a much smaller impact then stealing. hell if i want an album from now on im just going to go sail my boat up to the studio, steal the original pressing and then sink the studio. then i will sail off into the sunset, so they can really call it piracy.

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By dwaterman

edited Sep 28, 2006 - 5:11 PM

How do you measure the impact?

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By Silentmaster101

posted Oct 2, 2006 - 2:05 PM

ah thats the real question now isnt it?

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By AaronDobbins

posted Sep 27, 2006 - 2:25 PM

No, I think it is pretty clear. By the first comment about being poor so it is okay to download a song and not pay for it, does that mean the person can go rob a liquor store for some money?

The car analogy fits because that's like saying you stole your neighbors car because you can't afford to buy one but you had to have it. Either way it is a crime.

I think people confuse illegal downloads with stealing because it is easy to do and only takes a couple of clicks. You don't walk into a record store and steal a CD because you can't afford to buy it. The fact that MP3s are digital is irrelevant.

That being said, I think the RIAA is ridiculous and CDs are overpriced and most CDs only have a few good songs. I just wanted to make the point that stealing is stealing.

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By The Man

posted Sep 27, 2006 - 3:17 PM

"The fact that MP3s are digital is irrelevant."

no, it isn't.
in fact, that's the root of the problem. anyone can make them now.
why would i go to the store for a loaf of bread when i can make my own? (yet i still do!)

if i produce or reproduce something by myself, for myself, it's my business. nobody elses.
if i reproduce my neighbors car for my own personal use, with my own tools and supplies, i didn't steal the damn car.

RIAA is going the way of the dinasaur. anyone can record now. they are no longer needed.

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By dwaterman

posted Sep 27, 2006 - 4:40 PM

...and you took a shot at my analogy?

You would go to the store to buy bread in order to save time and effort... you copy music to avoid paying for it, no comparison.

When you make a duplicate copy of intellectual property that you don't own, it becomes someone else's business. You don't have a divine right to copy music, it isn't free.

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By Tenoq

posted Sep 27, 2006 - 10:10 PM

Ah, but should music be free? Is it fair to put a price on 'intellectual property'? If so, I'd like royalties from BetaNews everytime someone reads one of my comments.

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By dwaterman

posted Sep 28, 2006 - 11:02 AM

Nice try, you posted your comments in a public forum...

When you you own the rights to intellectual property it is yours to distribute as you wish at whatever price you choose.

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By The Man

edited Sep 27, 2006 - 9:49 PM

"You don't have a divine right to copy music"

yes i do, i have a cd burner.
and a will of my own.

it's ok though, you keep doing what the rich and greedy tell you to, just pretend those of us who share music don't exist. no lost revenue that way.

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By dwaterman

posted Sep 27, 2006 - 10:05 PM

Thanks for clearing that up... I didn't realize that you were entitled to whatever you want without regards to payment or compensation. Let everyone else will pay for what you are doing... those zealots should just leave you alone.

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By AaronDobbins

edited Sep 27, 2006 - 3:58 PM

Weird, bug in the system....been seeing that a lot lately.

I agree with you that if you have created it, share away. We aren't talking about that above. We are talking about taking a new store bought CD, ripping it to MP3, and giving it to all of your friends. That is stealing, just as if you were to steal your neighbors car because you liked it and couldn't afford it.

And your comment about the RIAA is sort of silly, considering there are still many artists who go through labels so they can get themselves out there and have someone else put up the money to have a million copies of their CD out on store shelves in the first week (they still rate the billboard by sales, so clearly people are still buying like crazy, ie the new Justin Timberlake CD). Show me an unknown artist that can do that, get themselves advertised on MTV and TRL and all of that, and then front the money to throw blockbuster concerts at your local stadium.

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By PC_Tool

edited Sep 27, 2006 - 2:17 PM

Damn hosed up comment system!!!

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By ds0934

posted Sep 27, 2006 - 8:35 AM

From a purely (U.S.) legal perspective, Lime Group has a viable claim here. However, from a political/pr perspective, they don't stand much of a chance here. The courts will likely go with RIAA again or they will see themselves as opening a door to yet more cases they don't want to sit through.

If proven true, and Limewire indeed has no viable means to manage traffic between users, it would be no different than assigning blame to the phone company for not monitoring what two people discuss over their lines. Unless it is "specifically" stated that the sole, or primary intent of Limewire is for sharing "music" or "copyrighted" works, any such claims are subjective and speculative in nature. The court would then rely on a battery of "expert" witness testimony to assess the primary intent, which is where RIAA will most likely come out on top. Free legal mumbo-jumbo from a dumbo-mumbo.

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By joeshmoe7

posted Sep 27, 2006 - 8:55 AM

very well put

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By ds0934

posted Sep 27, 2006 - 2:53 PM

thank you :)

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By tipsyboy

edited Sep 27, 2006 - 6:43 AM

Why does the RIAA not sue those companies that developped digital copy routines, too? Those are to be held responsible in the first place for the possibility of copying any kind of digitized material. But, no - they won't do it, because this whole affair is simplified to an extent that a black and white world seems to be real. In the real world this is a complex and sophisticated matter, involving social, jurisdictional, moral, ethical, political, economical and even philosophical or religious aspects. The various groups and individuals throughout the world have their standpoints. It would take a Solomon to deal with all aspects and thus come to just judgements. But, alas, they decide cases in a most simplified manner, and the most powerful groups will reach their aims anyway.

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By Galway

posted Sep 27, 2006 - 7:03 AM

"Why does the RIAA not sue those companies that developped digital copy routines, too?

Because in the UK, our laws says that we are allowed to make a backup.

"Those are to be held responsible in the first place for the possibility of copying any kind of digitized material."

NO ...users need to take responsibility.

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By IceyKola

posted Sep 27, 2006 - 11:44 AM

There was a point in time where I remember making back-up copies part of fair-use in the US, too.

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By Paul Skinner

posted Sep 27, 2006 - 5:10 AM

I think the biggest point here is the basic license agreement you have to agree to (I will *not* share data that is under copyright) before you are allowed to download Limewire.
In effect they have distanced themselves from what the consumers do with their product as they have denied any affiliation with what the consumers are doing.

They from that point no longer have to police their networks as they should be able to presume that anyone using it for that purpose would be stuck at the license agreement.

Plus they have no centralized server so at no point do they have any music themselves, it's entirely the users who trade the music.

Obviously, with no qualifications in Law this is speculation, but if I were to be on the jury for this case I would carefully consider those points before jumping to the 'obvious' conclusion that they're guilty.

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By mesiex

posted Sep 27, 2006 - 10:22 AM

Let us forbid public libraries. No one should be allowed to read a book without buying it before. Everyone who lends a book must go to jail.

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By huttman

posted Sep 27, 2006 - 11:21 AM

you cant "lend" a file wrong analogy

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By Tenoq

posted Sep 27, 2006 - 10:12 PM

Actually, with DRM, you can lend a file. :P Limited play system for the lose. :P

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By The Man

edited Sep 27, 2006 - 11:30 AM

why not?
-edit-
oops, borrow. ;-)

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By huttman

posted Sep 27, 2006 - 1:27 PM

you plan on giving the file back and deleting your copy? you cant "borrow, or "lend" without using a cop. UNLESS of course you borrow a cd and dont copy it. their beef is pulling a copy off that cd, then sending it to the world via the web.

I went into a record store the other day that used to be piled with people. It also served as a place to meet people. Now its barely surviving and it was forced to relocate. Stores like these could look for other things to sell such as shirts, stickers, posters and other memorabilia to make up for the loss of not selling the music, but even then that is hard with ebay in the mix (no pun)

imo i think the RIAA should spend all tha tmoney their using to sew peopl and assist coming up with a way to please all. imesh isnt the answer. True no one shold have to pay for everyone else being non responsible, but its just the way it is. As long as there is a way, they will. If you really want to take it a step further back, if people made enough money to pay for all the music they want, this wouldnt be an issue (for most) even the rich steal music because they want the feeling of getting something for free.

Im glad i am just a bystander, an observer if you will. Its like that one Sci-fi channel commercial, it shows two asian ping pong players going at it then suddenly they grow a few extra arms just to keep up...

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By cannie

posted Sep 27, 2006 - 12:10 PM

"Google to Digitize Madrid Library". Public Libraries lend books for free. It means book sharing. But you don't borrow knowledge, you keep it for yourself.

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By The Man

posted Sep 27, 2006 - 1:28 PM

books and files both contain knowledge. one's written, the others digital. any other differences?

"But you don't borrow knowledge, you keep it for yourself."

not me, i try not to be selfish. i share with others.
:-p

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By mesiex

posted Sep 27, 2006 - 5:49 PM

All we have comes from others, even our own lives, and I believe it would be a crime against humanity to restraint knowledge sharing on any of his ways. Let people buy and let people share, and if it is no bussiness to sell records please invest on anything else, not being a Ralentless Investigator of Alien Activities.

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By x-ray

posted Sep 27, 2006 - 4:58 AM

i want to share a song i have made my self

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By ds0934

posted Sep 27, 2006 - 8:44 AM

RIAA would probably try to sue you for ripping yourself off. Then they would collect the proceeds of the suit and use them to pad their own accounts.

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By PC_Tool

posted Sep 27, 2006 - 12:27 PM

Good for you.

Why is it everyone expects everyone else to do all this sh1t for them? For free, no less...

I'm glad you're creative. I'm happy you're interested in sharing that creativity with others. I'm perplexed as to how you think you are entitled to *free* distribution on a medium (The internet) other "legitimate" artists must pay for.

Yes, free distribution (file-sharing) clients and networks exist. If you depend solely on those for your distribution, you must accept that the channel you have chosen is not in any way, shape, or form, predictable, reliable, or guaranteed available.

You want a reliable way to get your music out? Build a website. Yeah, you gotta pay for it. Boo-hoo.

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By ds0934

posted Sep 27, 2006 - 2:54 PM

Were you replying to my post or did BN pull another snafu reply bug? Just making sure because it didnt' seem to fit with what i posted.

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By Paul Skinner

posted Sep 27, 2006 - 5:13 AM

Get yourself a myspace account like all the others.

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By Galway

posted Sep 27, 2006 - 7:04 AM

Thats one option ... limewire is another.