Hi everyone!

I am just letting all fo you know that the NEW and may I say NEW (as of last night) version 0.725 Trillian works with AIM.(for the time being)

By the way you can get it at:

www.trillian.cc

That should be the latest headline!

Chess game is on, and it's AOL's turn on the clock.

You use an I.M client because people you know use that client. It really never had anything to do with functionality or branding- it's not because people LOVE AOL that they choose AIM.

Sheer volume of users is the main attraction because there's more of a chance you can find others to talk with (I'm sure there are several smaller chat clients with a community of about 20 out there but then who wants to join one of those?). AIM from what I can see has such a monopoly in the US, but in countries where AOL hasn't got much of a presence (for instance it really doesn't get much consideration in Australia where I am regardless of how much money they pump into advertising) it's considered to be 3rd rate crap.

What AIM (and any I.M for that matter) should be doing is trying to attract as many users as possible- whether they use 3rd party software or not. In this day and age, especially with the fickle nature of users (look at how Netscape went) it's important to give users a REASON to stick with your software- and in I.M, it's all about "who you know". If all my friends are on AIM, then I'm less likely to stop using it will I?

People also resent being forced to do things against their will (duh). if the only way I can access my AIM friends, sure I'll use AIM over trillian. but only for a few weeks perhaps, till I can discuss it with my friends and then organise a mass exodus for them all to move to another IM (assuming they WANT to talk to me!hehe) so AIM's short term gain can result in a long term loss.

The fact many of us have multiple accounts with various different IM clients, programs like Trillian allow people to use all of them rather than having to choose- which in a way helps everyone. If I had to choose one, I definitely wouldn't be choosing AIM, and in an IM community, losing one person often involves losing many (they tell their friends to switch too).

Bottom line is AIM shouldn't fear Trillian, it should embrace it because Trillian generates appeal with people who wouldn't normally touch AOL's crap client;)

Come on we all Know Microsoft = #1
If trillian just DROPS AIM we all happy

Hell they even can support devil.com messenger

Hahaha... just have AOL bleed to death.... just do NOT use it.

I don't myself...if it does come down to it, Trillian should drop AOL. All the other IM's should just team up and leave AOL out in the cold to freeze.

Long Live Trillian

Trillian Made CNET News Again

For the whole story, goto.....

http://news.com.com/2100-1023-840981.html

Long Live Trillian

aim has ads? I never noticed,Oh I use gaim. you have choices stop crying about it. Switch to linux and gaim and stick it to the man or men I don't know. or just keep complaining you have that right too.

I use AIM on Linux, and I don't ever see the ads either. I see them on my XP system at work, they consist of one little window of advertisements that pops up when you first sign on. OH POOR BABIES! ;-)

FEWT,

The window that pops up is not an ad, it's AIM Today.

Look here:

http://www.aol.com/aim/gr/buddy.gif

An ad at the top for Talk Back Live (CNN Show) and there's a smaller ad at the bottom.

Those are the ads that everyone is complaining about, but, with as little as 5 steps, they can all go away. :)

What's the big deal? There's a little ad in the "AIM console" big whoop. ;-)

I guess, the big deal would be the wasted bandwidth by the rotating ads.

I don't really care, I made them go away.

Ok, since when is everyone complaining only about the advertisements?

Ok, no one is really only complaining about the advertisements, from what I can see, and my own use, people LIKE trillian because, wow, behold, it allows you to use all of your nice little IM programs at one time.
I myself find that very helpful, except when Trillian doesnt let me recieve ICQ messages, which made it hard for me to talk to my girlfriend that is over 3 thousand miles away, but hey, what's a phone for?
So right now I am running Trillian and ICQ, which some people can use Trillian and AIM, no big deal, it is just the fact that AOL is booting the AIM users from Trillian, which they have a right to do, it just sucks that they are doing it.
Call Microsoft!! lol
--SubFreeze

Cause AOL/Yahoo/MSN to lose at their own game...

Open Source developers, here is another day to rule!!!

Someone needs to create a new IM server, without the AOL Ads. Part of the popularity of the AOL IM is that the port is considered secure and can easily travel through the current firewall configs - so, make a new client that passes on the same port. Make it go to a new server location. Allow users of AOL Client to access the new, faster, add0-less server, etc. You could even open it up to the MSN messenger and Yahoo client, and then slowly kill them, the way that they want to fight over us...

AOL said it's concerned that programs such as Trillian and the security gaps they exploit could lead to unwanted instant messages--spam--being sent to AOL members. But there's another issue: money. AOL sells advertising on its instant-messaging client, and Trillian blocks those ads.

Unwanted SPAM?....That's funny!
How do we (Trillian) block there ads??

You can read the whole write up at.....

http://zdnet.com.com/2100-1107-827672.html

LONG LIVE Trillian

Goto this site.....

http://www.cnet.com/radi...pref....31trill,sid=rdo

It's a broadcast...Scott is talking about Trillian.

LONG LIVE Trillian

Do your think AOL is listening? Tell you the truth, I think this did it for them this time...they might be BIG & BAD but they can't keep this up...the people will win this one.

Plus having AOL block Trillian...isn't that a freedon of speech?....also tell me this...it's NOT going through AOL servers....it's just client to clinet comunicating just like IRC is? I'm I right or not?

Not exactly. AIM is not a completely decentralized network. Offline messages and user authentification are controls at the server, afaik.

But, as we've seen in the past, Trillian will jump around this just as easily as MS did. Trillian doesn't have to use the exact same code. All they have to do is run a copy of AIM and a current copy of Trillian, monitor all packets coming and going from each, and find a response that differentiates, then correct the response. Essentially, unless AOL plans on changing it's AIM code with hourly updates, they can't block trillian or anyone else for that matter, as long as the network response traffic is mimicked.

Theoretically, they could go with some type of server key encryption authentification, but who seriously thinks it would last even a week before it got cracked?

Trillian will win! :D

That would be a violation of the DMCA, it's not that simple.

RIGHT ON!!!!!!

LONG LIVE Trillian

Just a simple question, that I'm wondering if anyone has a plausible answer to:

Why does AOL block Windows programs like Trillian, Odigo, MSN and whatever others and not GAIM on *nix?

Which, brings up another question: Since GAIM is open source, and is not being blocked by AOL, why not "copy and paste" the important portions of code (that is, the protocols for communicating w/ the AOL servers). If the communications going back and forth between AOL & trillian was the same as AOL & GAIM, then if my deductive reasoning holds, then they'd have to block GAIM as well, in order to get Trillian. Am I right? Or am I just full of B.S.? I trully, don't know, it's just a random thought roaming through my mind. My thoughts are, if we could at least get GAIM blocked, too, then we'd get the portions of the open source community using GAIM on our side as well. Maybe AOL would listen to them instead of us?

Hmm....anyway, in the mean time until this is fixed (and I am NOT going to install AIM one way or another, I refuse to contaminate my computer with that FILTH), F*** O**, AOL!!! Stick your problems with AIM so far up that the sun don't shine no more and you've round a corner or two. Sorry, murderous feelings rising again....Good 'nite, all (er...morning as it would now seem)!

exactly. i've been wondering the same thing since the blocking started.

Simple, if they cut and paste code from GAIM they will be required to open their application's source code.

And thus the communist nature of Linux

I'm sure there's a way around this. i.e. Write the AIM portion in an external module, and open up the module source.

What a crock. First, gaim is NOY LINUX (idiot). Second, SO WHAT! If you wrote code, would you want someone else to make money off of *YOUR WORK*? I thought not. It's not communist. You have no idea what communism is.

Only if the parts they use are licensed LGPL. I don't believe they are. Besides, they are more than capable of writing their code on their own, they shouldn't take it from someone else.

What I meant when I said was Linux was Linux's license, and if you're only making it free to others in your community and all that, it is mirroring communism.

Bull.

Maybe because there are not enough GAIM users to make it worth the trouble? :) I think Trillian is quite popular so the loss in ads could be a big enough reason.

My money would ride on gaim having more users.

cause gaim and the other clients connect through TOC, trillian connects through more advanced OSCAR, which allows for file transfers and such, TOC can only do basic messages....

Since when were binaries and sources released under the GPL (the "linux license" as you call it) only availible to the "communist" linux community? Last I heard, things released under the GPL were availible to the *cough* -general public- (hence the license's name).

Actually, apparently it was much more simple than that from what I understand.

GAIM evidently used the older 3.x version of the OSCAR protocol. Trillian, in order to pick up the server-side buddy list support, was using 4.3(?)... as a result, the block (which affected the newer OSCAR versions) hit Trillian but not GAIM.

Here is why AOL IM blocks Trillian Users, just so you know...

AOL makes MILLIONS of dollars per day off advertising with their AIM client software in the ad window. Now if everyone dumps AOL IM and uses trillion, AOL loses money in a major way. That's the bottom line.

So of course AOL is going to do what it has to do to keep anyone and everyone strictly using their product.

Keep in mind I am a avid Trillion user and AOL blocking trillion very much annoys me.

You're 100% right. Unforutnately for both companies, a lot of people like me hate AOL in the first place, nor think Trillian is really all that great. So, if I did use Trillian, the loss of my AIM access wouldn't break my heart. I might actually enjoy the fact that they don't want me. I'll stick to straight ICQ for IMs and Klient for IRC, with the occasional use of Yahoo Messenger to contact those certain people not quite sophisticated enough for ICQ. Mind you, my normal chat buddies are at irc.cyberarmy.com... not AOL Chat:Communites:Soccer Mommies. ;)

To the notion that trillian is hacking into AOLs servers.
This can in no way be the case, users enter the user name and password issued by the aim service, if trillian allowed users to take over other peoples accounts on AIM then trillian would be hacking but this is not the case. In fact You are required to obtain a user name and password from each of the services before you can connect with trillian. Trillian itself is just the message boy.

On the point that we are utilizing their servers.
Yes trillian utilizes the AIM servers but no more than any one else that has a user name and password with AIM, they issue us a password for free in order to acces the AIM servers for purposes of using the AIM chat service.

On the point that they are losing revenue from not using the official AIM client.
This is also not the case, indeed trillian does not show advertisements but the same thing can be done on AIM by replacing the advert.ocm file with the admin.ocm file and renaming it back to advert.ocm and boom no advertisements, the fact that AIM supplies their own "crack" with their software to block their advertisements is ammusing if they tried to say that they are losing revenue from other programs that do not display these ads. So far no AOL representative has stated that they are blocking trillian for not displaying advertisements.

On the point of AOL having a monopoly on instant messaging services.
First go to their website and look at all of the companies they now own as well as all of the subsidaries of those companies...(http://www.aoltimewarner.com/about/companies/)
They are nowhere near just a simple isp anymore and they are growing...
I tend to be close to agreement that AOL is monopolizing the IM industry. 90% of instant messaging services are being run by AOL any company that gets close to competing with them is bought out by them (i.e Miriables (sp?) and their ICQ program) AIM's blocking of trillian is simply to try and silence the competition. AOL can not buy out cerulean studios (owners of trillian) without going against their own claims. (They would have a program capable of accessing services other than their own). AOLs way of fighting against this type of competition would be to block them from accessing their servers.

I find i humorous as well that a couple years ago AOL were the ones whining that they were getting picked on because Microsoft had control of internet explorer and that it wouldn't let AOL customers use it. (So they filed lawsuits against microsoft and bought out Netscape in retalliation) Now that the tables are turned on AOL they shut out others from using their services.
Funny, isnt it?
-Serial007

Dear Goliath,
In case you didn't know, AOL *owns* ICQ, so after f**king up the aim access, it will do the same to ICQ. So there's no escape in trying to talk everyone into using ICQ.
Also, I think what AOL does is right, because we *are* using their computers for something they give us for free. If they can give it for free, they can take it away, they can choose whatever they want to do with it. Until you pay something, quit whining.
Use yahoo, until they decide to kick you out.

Excuse me? Whining? No, the simple fact is that ICQ wasn't created by AOL. So far, they haven't tampered too much with the format that works. But, give them time, and they will.

And just because something is free and I shouldn't be able to complain about it? I don't think so. FYI, there are dozens of other messaging services, and 99.999999% of them are free. Besides, it's not AIM I have so much against, is the majority of AOL users. But then, I can't say too much bad against them. They're the people I making a killing on doing in-home computer repair for. As soon as I see they have AOL on their computers, I know that I'll be taking home at least $50 just doing software fixes because of all the crap those types of users screw up, not to mention what can be made for following months upgrading all their hardware for the next version of AOL... and the next... and the next. It's almost, but not quite as bad as Microsoft. It's funny that those two alone probably account for 90% of all my computer repair and upgrade calls. The other 10% results from either over use of GoBack and or a pet that's chewed on or pull on a cord.

I'm curious to see what AOL is going to say when I call them tonight and ask why they kicked me off when I'm a paying customer to AOL. (I know, it sucks, but I haven't gotten cable internet yet cuz I only had a 166). I use trillian at work to connect so that I don't tie up so much of my memory, since I also connect to the other services.
If I'm a paying customer, why do they care if I get their advertisements? Who reads them anyway?

I was looking at the legal stuff on www.aim.com, and as near as I can tell they want people to use AIM because they have to sign their legal agreement. Trillian users don't have to. Oh, and the web page didn't say ANYthing about connecting with another service. It's not in the user agreement.

I hope that Trillian will have a linux version soon. They may be able to use GAIM like many have suggested, and I can say b-bye to AOL, Microsoft, and all those programs that I hate to have on my computer, and run a real OS.

Goto this site......

http://www.geocities.com/trillianupdate/

This site has updates on what's going on between Trillian and AOL.

LONG LIVE Trillian

[08:57:06] *** Creating connection "########"
[08:57:07] *** Error logging into AIM: Error code 29: We think this means the AIM/ICQ servers are sick of seeing connections from your IP address. Wait a few minutes and try again.
[08:57:07] *** See http://www.aol.com for more information

When they made AIM Open source in Luinx they open there own Can of worms ...all other Lunix and other 3rParty Aim Clients work they are singling out Trillian only becasue is more popular ....just like the Record company did to Napster ... Napster aint the only one but because it the biggest its attacked just to prove a point..

Hope Trillian still fights on!! PLEASE DO!!

I don't see the differents between sending e-mail to AOL servers and using a instant messenger to chat with AOL users? It's all the same to me...it's just instant e-mail.

Trillian LIVES!!!

That's the GOOD point I've made throughtout this discussion, since its inception. :) More than that, instant messanging is SEVERAL ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE less of a burden on a server than email (that allows "cute" attachments).

The difference is that sending email to an AOL account is a universal thing. You can't "abuse" email in the way you can an IM server.

They want people to use their clients, therefore directing traffic to their site, and they want the advertising $ from the ads they smatter on the AIM client. I'm sure that's the main reason why they are upset when Trillian comes out with a nicer client with no ads ;)

It's more of a whiny thing.. "It's our server/port. Why should we have to let others use it?"

Your mail client does not make a direct connection to their servers, you connect to your providers SMTP and your providers SMTP server transfers the message to it's destination. I'd guess that AOL and Cerulean Studios could work out a bridge to allow Cerulean Studios users to send messages between Cerulean Studios servers and AOL's servers in a very SMTP like manor. Cerulean Studios would have to put up their own IM server farm though.

You can't "abuse email", can you actually say that with a straight face?

lol another silly post by fewt.
what has sending email through a provider got to do with directly connecting to aols IM servers? are u trying to claim that every single person that runs an smtp server has to have an agreement with every other person with an smtp server?! hmmm it must be an interesting life on planet fewt.

What was that all about? I simply replied to the following.

"I don't see the differents between sending e-mail to AOL servers and using a instant messenger to chat with AOL users?"

I have an SMTP server, and if someone sends an e-mail to someone @AOL.com, you can bet that my server connects directly to an AOL server....and it uses a heck of a lot more resources than a little IM conversation. I never had to get permission from AOL to do that.

Yes, but AOL opens its SMTP servers to specifically allow any MTA to connect that follows the RFC for mail transmission. There is no open protocol or standard behind AIM at the moment and AOL did not specifically design their system to let anyone in. If AOL created a custom SMTP server that only worked for AOL's other servers and you figured out a way to circumvent that protection and use it anyways, you better believe it could be considered hacking. While I think "hacking" is an an absurd term to categorize what Trillian is doing, your argument needs some work.

I don't mean abuse as in mail-bombs or spamming.. I mean it in a hardware and monetary sense. Hard to explain what I mean ;)

I don't care whether their protocol is open or not. Me using trillian is actually SAVING aol costs in bandwidth!! Really the people who use trillian aren't dumb enough to buy real AOL & most are smart enough to take the ads out of the regular AIM client if that's what they use, so really AOL is not losing out by letting trillian continue. By acting like the money-hogging corporation that they are, they're only going to lose public support. (And, thanks to me, several customers)

Well..Yes..It is hacking..but Trillian is way better than AIM....Cooler graphix...better things..IT IS JUST BETTER. I dont get y they have to block Trillian users...

Here is why they block Trillian Users, just so you know...

AOL makes MILLIONS of dollars per day off advertising with their AIM client software. Now if every dumps that and uses trillion, AOL loses money in a major way. That's the bottom line.

Keep in mind I am a avid Trillion user and AOL blocking trillion very much annoys me.

T.

my arse is it about that. most adverts in aim are for aols own products (most of which are also free) so they make no money from most of the adverts.

Also, in todays ad marketplace, I doubt they're making "millions a day".

Especially, when most users now know how to disable the little ads.

There you go assuming again. Most AOL/AIM users barely know how to turn their computers on. They do *NOT* know how to turn ads off, nor do they care. ;-)

95% of the advertising in AIM is promotional for AOL ISP, and other AOL/TW products. I have been forced to use AIM during this latest round of battle, so all I did was eliminate the ads... and the thing still works. So if it were strictly advertising, AOL would be detecting and removing AIM users that aren't showing ads. I am radio broadcaster and I can assure you that the promos don't make us money. Maybe in the future AOL will actually sell the ad space, but for now its almost entirely AOL/TW products, and mostly the main AOL service thats being promoted.

As for why many of us want to use Trillian with our AUTHORIZED AIM accounts is that we are also AUTHORIZED on the other services and don't want to have 4 different clients open and hogging resources. Trillian is lean, trim and easy to use. They, despite what others have stated are not a "service" or a "system" like Yahoo, AIM or MSN. The software is simply a PROGRAM which has the capability to connect to all 4. There is no direct interoperability, so AOL/TW isn't really breaking any rules of its merger agreement with the FCC. They are just being mean.

It's about time that the IM companies (AOL especially) realised what is needed:

- All IM clients should be able to speak to all IM servers.
- All IM servers should be able to speak to each other (is such a user on here, and sending messages back and forth)
- This should all be done through a standard protocol

To have this argument, over non-standard proprietry protocols is like going back to the dark old days of the Internet, were very few things were standard.

If AOL doesn't wan't to let non AOL clients on its server, then fair enough, that's its right, but they must allow a way for non AIM users to communicate (using all features) with those users who are connected to its server.

If this was an issue of AOL just not wanting to share its network, then why do my unix AIM hacks still work, this is Aol Vs Trillian. it has nothing to do with unauthorized users using their network, otherwise, why not get rid of ALL clients except AIM itself?

Can you receive an mp3 from a PC AIM user?

If not, then that's the answer. Your unix hacks use TOC protocol, not OSCAR. Trillian MUST support file xfer to/from AIM users otherwise no AIM user would even spit in their direction...

and odigo? it still connects to AIM

and what does that have to do with my origional argument, which is that AOL is going after trilian specifically, this has nothing to do with them not wanting unauthorized users on their network.

What?? Answer my question please.

If the answer is: "I can't" then the point is that AOL isn't going after Trillian personally, but after all OSCAR-based clients.

Wha??? I use Trillian and never use it to transfer files between myself and an AIM user. Most of the AIM/AOL users I know don't even know how to do that in the first place nor do they feel compelled to do so. Just because you use the service that way doesn't mean that the rest of us do. I know probably twenty people using Trillian right now and the only reason most of them use it for is to communicate with the one or two friends they have left on AOL that are just too ignorant, stupid, or stubborn to get off.

I don't want to spit in Trillian's direction anyway I'm saving all my spit for Steve Case. :)

So perhaps Trillian should consider adding support for TOC. In fact, I change my mind. I personally WOULD use Trillian with "only" TOC support (no file xfers and other stuff) as long as I can do a very simple thing: send a text msg to an AIM user and get a text msg back from him.

Hmmm while pondering the situation I'm thinking of a method for Trillian to SCREW AOL. Once TOC support is added, Trillian could add a little feature to their client that will do a very basic thing: it'll open an http or ftp server for ONE FILE ONLY - the one you're trying to send/receive. So you click on "Send file", navigate My Computer and double click on "hotporn.mpg". At this point the original-AIM user gets a msg with a nice url: "http://33.11.45.55:1337/hotporn.mpg". He clicks on it and get this: He gets the file REAL FAST using GetRight! As for RECEIVING a file from the orig-AIM user, you click on "Receive file" button on Trillian (which appears only for AIM users) which will, again, send the orig-AIM user a nice url "http://33.11.45.55:1337" (the IP of the Trillian user). Yes, you've guessed right. When the user goes to that url he gets an empty text box that's marked "Filename" with a "Browse.." and "Upload" buttons next to it.

Problem solved ;)

It seems Odigo made an agreement with AOL.

This whole discussion is ridiculous. I mean sure AOL has the right to protect their servers, but who the hell connects to AIM anyway? The only time you need to connect to AIM under Trillian is when you need to talk to someone thats an AOL member. So in reality, AOL is blocking their members from chatting with non-AOL netizens. For example, if one of your family member or friend who is too retarded to use regular ISP and has to use AOL and wants to chat with you through AIM, well now he/she can't do that since you're not allow on the AOL network with your Trillian IM client because you're not an AOL member. Let AOL build their retarded community. Just dont use AIM and tell your retarded friends/family members to use Trillian if they want to chat with you through ICQ, MSN or Yahoo. And let AOL and Cerulean studios battle it out in court.

I agree, plus a little correction: NO ICQ. If they wanna talk to you, make 'em install MSN Messenger (or Trillian using MSN), or Yahoo. Both will be "open" to third-party clients for the next few years we can assume (if MSN one day has 70% of the market you can bet your pants they will try to close them off just like AOL tries now).

AOL's current interests are pretty clear and contradict the interests of all non-AOL users. If those users can get a faster client with no ads and more features, they should damn right be able to get it. The government should see to it to happen. Set a clear timetable for IM Unified that all the "big guys" (AOL, MS, Y) will be forced to support on all current and future clients. That's about the greatest positive thing to come out from this continued fist-fight with Trillian. (Without it, the status quo would have remained much longer than it absolutley must.)

That's not true, we have over 30 developers on my team. None of my developers are AOL users, yet we all use AIM.

Stop complaining AOL has every right to throw you off its network for using software that hacks itself into AOL's network without its premission. AOL is paying for those servers that Trillian hacks into its there right to kick you off and you can't blame AOL for doing that. How would you like it if some piece of software suddenly started connecting to one of your servers without them asking you if they could? I understand why you people are upset because AOL blocked you, but don't blame AOL its there right. Trillian doesn't even have its own server it just hacks into everyone elses and gets the benefits. I would like to see it last as a stand alone client without the use of servers owned by other companies.

So, perhaps Netscape should exist as a browser that only connects to their proprietary servers, instead of 'hacking' into other webservers? Or perhaps Eudora should only be able to connect to Qualcomm's mailservers...you don't really need to use that mail client on your ISP, right? ;)

Those are extreme examples...but valid, nonetheless. Yahoo and MSN have actually said they have no problem with Trillian. And AOL seems too busy toying with AIM to care about ICQ.

The whole strength of Trillian is that it provides a standard client. Imagine if to connect to one website you had to have IE, while to connect to another you had to have Netscape, while to connect to another you had to have Opera. It would be irritating, to say the least, to have to switch between the three browsers constantly, wouldn't it?

I have friends on AIM, and I need AIM for communication between people who are a part of a project I am part of. We use MSN to communicate between teams and sites at work. And I have friends on ICQ, the system I used to use as my 'primary' system, ages ago. Opening three clients sucks RAM and CPU horribly, and it was horribly inconvenient having to go and set away messages on /three/ clients whenever I wanted to leave the keys, etc.

I pray so hard that I'm within those 5% of special Trillian users. hhahahaha

Yeah, Trillian "hacks" into AOL's just like when I send an email to an AOL user, then my ISP's SMTP server "hacks" into AOL's mail servers to deliver that mail. There is NO difference between email and instant messaging, except that email creates about 50x more load (which means much more costly) on AOL's side... Email contaning one series of pics that you scanned from your grandma's 97th birthday will generate more load than IMing to ALL your buddies will create for ETERNITY.

AOL is WRONG. They should ALLOW the interim solution until THEY start to actually support a unified IM protocol. When they DO (IF they do and they're not playing games), then they can kill the direct-to-server protocol from being used by third party.

In other words, I don't trust AOL to want to support a unified IM protocol any time soon. "Sometimes in the next 500 years" is probably their "set in stone" deadline.

I just find this all too ironic. First, AOL tries to sue MS over IE controling the browser "market" and then they throw a hissy fit because they want to control one of the most used IM'ing market. Now, a valid argument against my statement is that the internet isn't Microsoft's but AOLIM's service is AOL's. OK, that's just fine and dandy. AOL seems not to know how to listen to consumers or even ideas from other people. Personally, I don't see what their problem is, keeping a so called "free" service all to themselves. It's like putting something out for sale at a garage sale, marking "free" on it, then when someone iquires about it, saying "No, that's mine." and greedily clutching it back. AOL's maturity level and intent is only that of an untrusting 3 year-old. I used to use their "fully featured client" until all of the bloat, unneeded ads (they make enough money off their clients), and "helpful" (annoying) popups finally pissed me off to the extent of terminiating the use of their service all together. Trillian is also bloatware, but in a different matter, just poor coding and memory leaks is what keeps me from using it, but I'll admit that it's better than AOL's "fully featured" client. I suppose AOL's idea of being "fully featured" is to add a whole bunch of poorly coded bloat that no one wants. Look at ICQ, Netscape, and even WinAmp (2.65 was the last good version, before AOL took over the coding).

In short, AOL needs to grow up, start learning how to share their toys, and become an active player.

I'm done.

For my fellow Trillian users, would you pay a yearly fee (assuming that you thought it was reasonable) if AOL made such a deal with Cerulean Studios? Not that I think that it would happen (AOL would probably rather squash Trillian), but it seems like a good compromise to me. For all the features that Trillian gives us, and all the stuff that I'm sure that Cerulean Studios will add, I'd be willing to pay $10 a year. Maybe more. I'm already starting to feel disconnected not being able to have my AIM buddies on my Trillian list, and running AIM now seems like drinking contaminated water in a desert...Sure, I'll get over it eventually, but I still won't be able to IM my family members who use AOL because of the parental control features for their children...

Sure - I already paid them $15 - why people expect everything on the Internet to be free forever is beyond me. It won't last forever.

I already donated $10 a few weeks ago for the next 6months of service and client enhancements. If I find that I still use Trillian in 6 months, I'll donate $10 more.

But you have to realize that you and me are a tiny minority. 95%+ of the users will not pay for something they can get for free and they just don't give a crap about the added benefits of a competing client.

I don't have anyone on AIM so it doesn't matter to me at this point. However, if they start blocking ICQ I'll get pissed off royally. I'll STILL not run ICQ unless I could store the logs in pure txt. (May sound like a silly reason but that's my only problem with ICQ - everyone has their reason for hating to use that "one of the 4 biggies" client.) The most important users on my list will have no problem running a second IM proggie - say MSN Messenger (foreign users LOVE IT) or Yahoo (for domestics).

True. The last time Scott posted something on the website about how many people were donating to Trillian, only about 1/1000 were...and I think that was being generous. More people might if they start feeling too disconnected. The question then becomes, "How many paying users would pacify AOL?"

No they won't, trust me. I had a server go down (One in my TW actually.) due to a drive failure, I ran a donation drive to get the drive replaced, and I had one donation out of 1,500 users. (All 1,500 were active mind you.)

I agree. People don't pay when you ask them for donations, but they do pay if you FORCE them to and they ARE getting some benefit. If the price is right (between $5 to $10 per 6 months), people will pay (not now with the AIM saga). This is the future model of software services and it's EXTREMELY pro-competition (you can jump ship quickly every few months so your solution provider had better get it right on a continuous basis). I've changed text editors (TextPad to UltraEdit32), bookmark managers (carious to Powermarks), email readers (Eudora to OE6), browsers (Netscape to IE6), multimedia viewers (ACDSee to Vueprint), ftp client/servers (BPFTP to FlashFXP, Serv-U to BPFTP Server), download managers (FlashGet to Getright), burning programs (EZCD to Nero), compression programs (PowerArchiver to WinRAR), Antivirus (McAfee to Norton), Voice over IP (Iphone to Pal Talk), AND IM programs (ICQ+MSN to Trillian) -- so paying a big sum for a multi-year license ("forever" in some cases) that I don't use simply sucks. Make me pay less and in increments and prove to me I should remain loyal while you remain loyal to me (keep improving).

But anyways, what I do believe is going to happen is that Trillian will CONTINUE to be the most feature-full IM program in the world, and in a few months the gap between them and the competition will only get bigger to a point it cannot be so easily bridged. The only problem (temporarily) will be compatibility. This will be a non-issue sooner or later (IM Unified). At that point, Trillian will be worth a few billion dollars and probably be sold to AOL, Yahoo, or Microsoft.

As for features vs. bloatware - I bet the Trillian team will be wise enough to work together with their customers and determine in a very scientific way what are the features that are necessary for all, and what should NOT be part of the lite version. Their anonymous statistic monitoring will help with that.

Regardless of Trillian's fate, I do believe the current war will only help accelerate the ratification of a unified protocol. The stronger the measures AOL takes against Trillian users, the faster they need to show progress on the unified protocol. Hopefully the government will step in and impose a timetable for the process. God knows AOL has no incentive to do anything in that regard.

Once you force them to "donate" they will no longer be "donating". ;-)

I work for a large company with a few hundred users. Most of the employees in the building have been using Trillian.

I came up with an idea and from talking to many of the upset folks from around the office I came up with the following idea.

If AOL can block us, whats stopping us from Blocking AOL from us? I am going to put a block on my routers blocking anything from *.aol.com

Two can play at the game, I hope others do the same. I even sent a message at http://www.aol.com/info/feedback.html to let them know 2 can play the game.

I know everyone is pissed off at AOL for doing this, I am myself but this isn't the way to go about it...we don't want to start a war. I think the BEST way is just stop using anything related to AOL and let them die a slow and lonely death.

LONG LIVE Trillian

Quote: I think the BEST way is just stop using anything related to AOL and let them die a slow and lonely death.

I might not "die a slow and lonely death" if I stopped watching HBO, CNN, Comedy Central but I think my girlfriend would kill me if I told her we couldn't see Keanu and Matrix 2 when it came out. It would also suck to have to avoid every book published by Warner Books. Even thinking about a world without Bugs and Daffy, Fred and Barney, et al. is depressing.

Moral of the story - Good Luck to you and say hi to Sancho Panza while you're at it.

15 February 2002 - Update

Just wanted to update and let everyone know that we are aware of the latest AIM block and are actively working on a solution.

Also, please note that if you're receiving "Not supported by client" errors on ICQ to make sure both ends are using patch "C".

- The Cerulean Studios Team

So, now they are totally aware, and AOL will sue them. LOL What's wrong with just asking for permission?

Maybe they will... did it say they won't? It says they are "working on a solution".

Speculation is such a wonderful toy.

Absolutely ;-)

When the fools at aol force you to use AIM again along side Trillian (because ICQ and rest of the messengers suck so bad as well one MUST use trillian), block thier vile ads with your host file:

# death to aim ads
0.0.0.0 ads.web.aol.com
0.0.0.0 todayvip6.aim.com
0.0.0.0 ads.msn.com
0.0.0.0 aim.com
0.0.0.0 affiliate.aol.com
0.0.0.0 bucp-r01.blue.aol.com
0.0.0.0 bucp-r02.blue.aol.com
0.0.0.0 bucp-r03.blue.aol.com
0.0.0.0 bucp-r04.blue.aol.com
0.0.0.0 free.aol.com
0.0.0.0 hometown-art.aol.com
0.0.0.0 ads.icq.com
0.0.0.0 aimtoday.aol.com
# 0.0.0.0 bucp1-vip-m.blue.aol.com

http://www.smartin-designs.com/downloads.htm

This site above has loads of blacklisted ad servers. Please be sure to check it out, its free, and it stops spamming ads.

Death to proprietism. http://, ftp://, gopher:// now
MESSAGE://

Proprietary sucks.

The Instant Messenger service is their innovation, their backbone it runs off of. It is their responsibility to provide security for it.. They provide at no charge, the ability to use their service with their software(also free of charge) AOL is a business and a service, they make the software for customers to use their service with. Customers are Members and advertisers...it does take Money to run a business... if you think that AOL should give away use of its resources without any benifit to the company.. You are a COMMIE bas****! This is America! for those of you that Hate AOL, you are all idiots and have nothing but stupidity to base your claims against!
Read old Betanews posts... count the number of MSN Security Holes and how long it took to fix them... then count the number of AIM secuirty holes and how long it took to fix them... AIM has had fewer security vulnerabilities and is repaired faster than MSNn Messenger service..

If another company wants to use the AOL AIM service and software they can get it... There is an Earthlink Branded version of AIM... Various Cell Phone companies have an AIM service available..

The AOL Mobile comminicator is a bit different as it uses the AOL Email and AIM service...

I love AOL... it is a hub of social activity, people meet people(I even met my girlfriend on AOL) Feel free to flame and call me names... I love a good argument!

-MikeGroovy

I DON'T want to flame u , but your a slave to AOL. Do you like the idea that you can't comunicate with Trillian users and would you goto another messenger to comunicate with them?

There Is No Trillian service to use, they piggyback on other services.. I use AOL and AIM, I use a Mobile Communicator when I am not at a computer, I use Yahoo Messenger for Video and Voice chatrooms(I can see and talk to my brother, Mom and sister-in-law for free) It is a fine SERVICE and Client.
Trillian hijacks the service of legitimate companies.. just as MSN Messenger has tried in the past.
If Trillian made a Legal agreement to utilize the services(assets) of these companies then it would be a whole different story.

-MikeGroovy

Microsoft is fine with Trillian. Personally I don't see a problem with it at all. If they're gonna make a better client, that keeps me from having to install 4 different bloated pieces of software on my machine, then more power to them.

MSN is a Monopoly and have tons of money... they don't need more money... they need/want more Market Share...
I have no problem installing other applications such as Yahoo. However, I do disable their automatic startup..
-MikeGroovy

So, by your argument, Microsoft would be perfectly justified in blocking Netscape/AOL users from all their webservers (hotmail, etc.) if they felt they could somehow put a spin on it and claim Netscape was a security threat to the security of Hotmail users? Or detecting and blocking anyone using ad-buster software?

Playing devil's advocate here, I'm not trying to flame...just start a thread. AOL /was/ told to open their IM network by the government, as part of the AOL/TW merger. They found a loophole. They are perhaps not as prolific as Microsoft yet, but they /are/ a monopolistic corporation who are employing the same legal abuses and tricks that Microsoft did. You can't condemn one without condemning the other, really...and that's why I use Microsoft as my example in all these analogies. :)

Funny you should mention that. Anytime you run AIM on a windows box, it automatically adds itself to the list of startup programs. (Not the one in your start menu, but in your registry) It's like it's gotta keep saying "Hey, remember me? I'm still here"

>

Hotmail does not require software, it is web based email, it uses standard HTML or XML code any browser that supports those standards will work.

>

Please read the following link for accurate information about the above statement:
http://zdnet.com.com/210...527161.html?legacy=zdnn

"An author of the FCC's IM conditions countered that the agency had to be concerned not with the present state of the IM market, but with the potential effects of the companies in combination."

They didn't believe that it was Big Brother's(Gov't) authority to divy up the company's valuable asset... as it could have a negative affect on that company(Communist gov'ts would have no problem ripping away personal assets and freedoms) Money is what capitalist nations such as the United States of America need to be able to function properly. Whether its Money made by commercials(advertisements) or charged for premium(like those Cable channels that have no commercials)

Free things do rock..They come in a few flavors.. Television stations for instance are Free to watch, but in order for them to stay broadcasting, they must make money.. they sell advertisements... What about PBS? They have to pay too... they ask for donations... but don't have Comercials... and Gov't Money... Our Tax Money is spent providing all sorts of "free" services(NPR, Food Stamps, Social Security, $100 Screws and the sort...)

Even LINUX ... Bravely coded by Various Individuals, Organizations, Companies and other Caffiene-Modulated-lifeforms.
but the indivduals that make up all of these entities must eat and have a place to live. They must have a source of income to do it! Which means the bottom line is that something somewhere cost Money!

now really I'd love to live in a Star Trek World(especially if I got a Star Ship, and phasers and Quantum torpedoes and all) and perhaps it is noble endevour...

Anyways I am through rambling for a while. I have to go home, I live way out in the country where the only broadband is Satellite and I have the affordable AOL Satellite :)
it is a long drive, I wish you all a great weekend.
Speaking for Free... I really like the idea of a Wireless WAN like the one in Seatle...
http://seattlewireless.net/
Those are some pretty cool fellows!

-MikeGroovy

There's a checkbox for that. :-P

You can also whack it here..

HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Microsoft\Windows\Run
or
HKEY_lOCAL_MACHINE\Software\Microsoft\Windows\Run

Awww, you thought I was just some dumb Linux guy I'll bet. :-P (Tongue in cheek ;-)

What about AOL? Why did AOL buy ICQ if it wasn't for monopolizing the market? AOL hasn't done anything with ICQ or Netscape for that matter. Why do you think people were believing the rumors of AOL buying Redhat? Because everyone knows what type of company they are. AOL is damaging the industry with their propietary ways.

OMG, yeah uhh CurrentVersion\Run

I don't disagree that people deserve to make an income. It's not even the banner ads I object to, though if you try to tell me AIM is actually making money off of those when all of them are for AOL/TW products, I will laugh until I cry. ;)

But really where AOL makes their income is from their online service and the 8 million subsidiary services (AOL Credit Report, AOL Shopping, AOL Mail-By-Phone, AOL Does-Your-Dishes or whatever they're adding next) which require additional fees. I /do/ have an AOL account I pay for, simply because when I travel they're the easiest place to find dialups for. They /get/ money from me, and I dislike that I have to connect via their client. I have friends on ICQ, people on a project with me on AIM, and my co-workers on MSN. If I have to leave three clients open, I lose my mind (not to mention a significant portion of my computer's resources).

And while I agree that the difference between web-based e-mail and AIM /technically/ is there, I disagree that it is /morally/ there.

Here's a better example, though. Instead of 'blocking Netscape clients', imagine this as the situation. Hotmail provides a protocol called HTTPMail, which can downloaded from Hotmail into a normal mail client. Because of that, you can use features (like PGP signatures, or Secure/MIME) which you cannot in Hotmail's web interface. Outlook and Outlook Express, of course, support HTTPMail...but other clients have developed some support for it.

Now, imagine if Microsoft started blocking HTTPMail users. Saying, in effect, 'if you want to use PGP or S/MIME on a Hotmail account, you have to use Outlook Express...otherwise just use the web interface.' They could do it; legally they have grounds for it...they own the Hotmail servers. People who are connecting via that protocol without the MS client could be justified as 'hacking' by Microsoft...and Microsoft could do something like return a single mail message which says 'You are accessing Hotmail with an unauthorized client...please download a FREE! Internet Explorer browser to obtain Outlook Express, an authorized and full-featured client!'

But people would be angry.

Ironically, I think /more/ people would be angry at that kind of an action, because they would point fingers as it being Microsoft taking another heavy-handed monopolistic action to ensure that their mail client controls the market. THAT's what bothers me; when Microsoft does something like this, it's a sign that they're the devil. When AOL does it, they're just defending their servers.

Can't have it both ways! Either the 'net community needs to grant Microsoft the same courtesy and stop calling them the devil, or point fingers at AOL with the same vehemence. Otherwise, /we're/ the hypocrites. ;)

--Rachel

Thanks for the NFO. I don't use AOL's IM client on any of my computers now anyways. I just don't like software that behaves that way.

dosen;t happen to me ... :)

Nicely said!

"This is America"????
'looking out my door'
Looks like Australia to me

???

He's just correcting a typo in the registry keys he posted previously.

Any HACKERS out there? I'm not saying hack Trillian to get on AOL, that want solve anything. If anyone can HACK the AOL site...please do!! Let them sue me...F*ck, let them sure the WHOLE WORLD.

AOL leave Trillian alone!!

This is DUMB!! Instead of fighting with everyone...why don't you work on making your software better.

STOP USING AOL and show them we aren't going to lie down and die....Trillian LIVES ON!!!

I agree - but there's just one problem with this, those 60+ people that use AIM and nothing else that I like to keep in touch with (although, some, I don't know why...). I wish I could dump AIM completely (service and all), but can't....

I just refuse to use a client (last time I actually used the AIM client was 2+ years ago), it was using at least twice as many resources as MSN. And, that was before they added crap like map services and calender stuff (I don't know if they've since removed that stuff, because, like I said, I haven't used it in several years). I like the fact that I can use a single client to connect to up to 5 different services (although, I am currently only using aim, icq and msnm with any regularity). It means 2 less programs to have running, and than many more resources that are left available for other programs.....DEATH TO AOL.

Does the same apply to other clients that connect to AOL?
eg, Odigo.
Or is the usage on other clients so small that it doesn't matter?

Most other clients use the TOC protocol. AOL doesn't seem to mind these clients, because the TOC protocol has limited functionality. (If you wanted to do file transfers or something you'd still have to use the standard AIM client)
Trillian uses the OSCAR protocol, which supports the same features that the standard AIM client does.

Honestly I can't see why AOL doesn't just take the same position as Microsoft. They should be concerned about making the internet a better place for users, not about monopolizing everything.

Microsoft's more concerned with making the Internet

Microsoft's more concerned with making the Internet a better place instead of monopolizing it? OMG I can't believe you said that!

Microsoft does not have a problem with Trillian connecting to their servers. They believe that in the end, it's the end users who benefit from that. AOL doesn't care...if they had it their way everyone would use their software and that's it, even if doing that meant the consumer being at a disadvantage.

That's not what you said though.

You said "Honestly I can't see why AOL doesn't just take the same position as Microsoft. They should be concerned about making the internet a better place for users, not about monopolizing everything."

Again, Microsoft has never attempted to monopolize anything?

Fewt said - "Again, Microsoft has never attempted to monopolize anything?"

Don't put words in my mouth. I never said that Microsoft has never attempted to monopolize anything. When I said that AOL should take the same position as Microsoft, I am referring to their attitudes towards instant messaging, which is what we are discussing here.

That I can agree with, but Microsoft's***ory makes me feel leary about their intentions.

Well I can't speak for what anyone's intentions are, but I'm far more comfortable with Microsoft than I am with AOL.

I'm not comfortable with either of them, least of all one that's been found guilty in a court of law.

Found guilty of what? It's surprising that someone who is not comfortable with AOL speaks so highly of them.

I haven't spoken highly of them. I've simply stated that they have every right to do what they are doing. YOU DECIDED that I am an AOL shill. I am defending their rights as IP owners.

I never said that you were "AOL Shill". Again you go about putting words in my mouth.

If it's not about you liking AOL, then you must have something personal against Cerulean Studios, Trillian, or the people who use it, because no matter what happens that's who you attack.

It shouldn't matter to aol what client is used. Trillian actually uses LESS bandwidth than regular AIM. It doesn't "hack" into the AOL servers, like they would have us believe, and it's not a security issue. Microsoft has realized this already. AOL is just too stubborn I guess.

I have nothing against Cerulean Studios or Trillian. I simply think that they should get AOL's permission before they write an application that uses their servers. It's really as simple as that IMHO. ;-)

Permission? I like Trillian and I could care less if they got permission from AOL or not. It's a better client than AIM, and maybe if AOL would spend their time designing a better client, instead of BLOCKING the better client, they wouldn't have this problem.

fewt - You're right, and you're wrong. :)

First of all, from what I understand, the Cerulean folks /did/ try to open a dialogue with AOL at one point and instead got a 'that's nice, we don't care about you' brush-off. I may be wrong, but I do dimly remember a chat with Scott about this in the beta channel one sleep-deprived night.

Second...in some ways, that's like writing a web browser to connect to Hotmail or your Yahoo! Mail - both accounts you've signed up for - and having to go ask Hotmail or Yahoo! 'do you mind if I have my new web browser I'm writing connect to your site.' I realize AOL owns the servers for AIM, and I'm not going to go over my analogy again about Microsoft owning webservers.

I would agree wholeheartedly with you /if/ the government had not told AOL to open up their instant messaging network as part of the AOL/Time Warner merger, and then had AOL find a loophole and thumb their nose at the government regulators. For a company which complained so long and bitterly about Microsoft's 'underhanded tactics' and 'cheap legal tricks to get out of consequences', that is not only hypocritical but morally reprehensible.

AOL has as much legal right to block Trillian users as Microsoft would have to block Netscape/AOL users from Hotmail...and about as weak a case to do it morally, and about as much chance as it standing up in court, I think. :)

I can definately see your point, however Cerulean Studios is free to use TOC as per the merger agreement. AOL never agreed to open OSCAR. (That I'm aware of.) :-)

They agreed to open OSCAR or a 'comparably featured protocol'. TOC sure as heck isn't comparably-featured. I understand that it was supposed to be a limited first-step into opening it wider; they were going to release TOC while they re-worked OSCAR to be cleaner. Or so they had said. :)

Of course, then they pulled the bait-and-switch, said OSCAR wasn't going to ever open, and removed support for a bunch of features TOC already had (like away messages) to try and force folks back to the real AIM client. Rather Microsoftian, really. :P

Oh, I did not know that. :-)

So I suppose you don't go to aol.com with your web browser unless you've asked their permission?

There's a EULA at the bottom of their site, yes I read it.

But if you visit the site to read it, you're visiting without first asking permission. Cerulean studios doesn't have to ask AOL for permission. Under the terms of the AIM license agreement, unless it's prohibited in the agreement, then it's legal. What Cerulean does & the way Trillian connects is perfectly legal. If AOL doesn't like it then they can change their license agreement. (They won't because that wouldn't look so good to Uncle Sam, who told them to open up their protocol)

I know you guys care because AIM is popular in north america, but here in south america MSN is the popular one, because ms is all over the place and the name "aol" is only known to leet people.

I hardly give credit to microsoft because their medicine causes more pain than pain itself, but i have to credit msn messenger. Sure, the protocol itself sucks, it cannot send files and such under nat connections, the allowed/blocked contact list design is flawed, but it's a small program and a simple program that "works" for messages and chat, just like icq (96?) used to be. And the msn protocol is "open" unlike oscar.

So, i don't care. As we know, it is not illegal for aol to block trillian. It's mean, it's inmoral but they have their rights. I will keep using add-free msn and add-free icq from trillian (minus the icq spam)

It boils down to this... They can't spam you with Ads! That's all this is about. Plus the back door trojans they install into your system to track what you do and where you go.

I had so much traffic on my connection that I had to put in a firewall and it logged everything and guess who was putting the traffic on my system? AOL!

The internet is turning into ADS! that's all and AOL is pissed off because 3rd party software doesn't allow them to spy on you and send you ads.

Go Trillian!

What ads? I keep hearing this. There's just one page of them that pops up when you connect. ICQ does it too. It's no big deal.

There are ads on the AIM client as well. That page that pops up when you sign on is easily switched off in your preferences. (But I didn't need to tell you that, cause you're smarter than me, right?)

Absolutely correct.

LOL - See the "AOL SUCKS" thread for evidence to the contrary.

It's a simple reg tweak, and off they go.

Um....actually you don't have to even touch the registry to remove the ads from AIM. Trust me I've done this for people more than once.

I don't have that problem anyway, the Linux AIM client doesn't have ads.

Good then I guess it doesn't matter that you don't know how to do it on Windows machines.

Did I say that I didn't know how to do it on Windows machines?

You didn't say that, I'm the one saying you don't know how to do that on Windows machines.

Fewt said "It's a simple reg tweak, and off they go."

Nope. You're wrong. (Shocking, huh?) I have disabled advertisements on people's AIM before, without ever having to touch the registry. Instructions for doing so are readily available all over the internet. (I've seen them posted to Betanews comments before)

Can it be done with a reg tweak?

or filesystem object?

There aren't any reg tweaks that I know of that will give the same result.

File system object? Are we talking about ASP now?

Removing the AIM ads is as simple as editing one text file & deleting another. You don't do anything in the registry. (I have no clue where you were going with the talk about File System Objects, that's got nothing to do with this.)

Regardless, it's a 2 second search on the web to find the fix. If the ads bugged me (I use XP at work) I would eliminate them, even if I had to get out the trusty 'ole hex editor to do so.

No, we aren't talking ASP. To me, a file is an object.

Removing the ads is done by editing a file, not the registry. I don't think I can get any more direct than that.

Cool

You don't need a hex editor :) You delete one file, remove a few lines from another and that's it. Takes about 45 seconds.

Wasn't the point. ;-)

Instead of going on and on about it like you're some kind of elite hacker that knows so much but won't share it, why not just post a link and be done with it:
http://www.observers.net/aimadfix.html

Whatever happened to the idea of CLOAKING?

Just get trillian to fake its appearance as the current AOL client.. If this could be done it would be really hillarious to see AOL try and fix it.. forcing all theyre real users to update 30 times a day too..

I/O

No kidding - that's what they're trying to do! But the protocol is not public and AOL continues to find ways of detecting whether it is an AOL client or not. Trillian then discovers what this is, makes an adjustment and things work again. Then AOL finds another way, etc...

But thanks for your amazing obvervation. I'm sure the Trillian folks had never thought of that.

Just click here and get reminded how Micrsoft was fighting AOL...

AOL lost and thus it tries it's luck on smaller groups first. Warming up before fighting the big elephant again.

http://www.betanews.com/article.php3?sid=932782591

I can see AOL blocking non-aol chat clients, but what I *DON'T* get, is why ONLY block AIM from Trillian? ICQ is an AOL owned product, so why aren't they screaming about that also? And why are they only singling out Trillian for AIM, when there are many others that do the same?

James Wheat
http://belprecomputerwizard.com

I'd like to know that answer as well. I think AOL realizes that it's too late for ICQ. (I get 10-20 ICQ spam messages a day!)

Several reasons.

1) ICQ already has different protocols in use on the system. ICQ99 (before AOL bought them out) and ICQ2000 (after the AOL buyout) use different protocols. This makes it difficult for the ICQ servers to track small client differences and block them.

2) AOL released a protocol called 'TOC' which is supposedly open, for AIM; third-party clients are allowed to use TOC. However, they've systematically crippled TOC as time goes on...it can do a limited buddy list and send/receive unformatted messages, but you can't even do away messages on TOC anymore. In order to do formatted text, buddy icons, away messages, server-side buddy lists, file transfer, etc... you need to use the OSCAR protocol. OSCAR is the full AIM protocol, and AOL jealously guards OSCAR. It is because Trillian uses OSCAR (in order to have file transfer and whatnot) that AOL blocks them. I.e. people who use third-party AIM clients and find they can't file transfer or use most of the features because they're on TOC are thus 'subtly pressured' to transfer to the real AIM client. Because Trillian provides all the same features, by using OSCAR... well, AOL doesn't like that.

To make an analogy...imagine Microsoft took the IIS webserver and made two protocols for it. If you used any normal web-browser, you could get just plain text and links to other pages...nothing more. Like using the 'Lynx' text-mode web browser. That would be the 'TOC" equivalent in this situation. But then if you used IE, you could get graphics and sound and fonts and tables and formatting... that would be the OSCAR equivalent. Now imagine someone looks at IE and says 'well, I want my browser to do that'...and Microsoft then blocks that browser from connecting to IIS servers, saying 'nope, you have to use the text-only one, because you're not an authorized client.'

AOL has a legal right to block us Trillianites...but Microsoft has a legal right to do the above example. For that matter, Microsoft has a legal right to block Netscape from Hotmail.com if they choose; they own the servers.

Legality and morality are not necessarily the same thing...

Nobody said they shouldn't be doing it 'cause it is illegal. They're complaining as users saying "we don't like this." And that's a valid user response.

not sure I fully understand, nor totally agree. I do believe under Linux's "Licq" client you can transfer files, and although I haven't used the "GAIM" Linux client for AIM, the one I used a while back with BeOS was a full AIM client, signing in to oscar, and doing file transfers. I remember a couple other "multi-client" programs I have played with that signed in to Oscar to chat with AIM users.

James Wheat
http://belprecomputerwizard.com

And AOL has blocked many OSCAR clients other than Trillian in the past. I'm pretty sure GAIM's been blocked before on the OSCAR side; they have a fallback to TOC, as far as I know. In addition, EveryBuddy and a number of other third-party ones I've encountered use TOC and have their own file-transfer extensions (i.e. sending a message like 'EB_FILEREQUEST:' as a chat message or something) which aren't compatible with AIM (or even each other). Jabber's been blocked off the AIM servers before.

As for why Trillian's a specific target? The 1 million download mark. When Scott and Kevin got 0.70 out with file transfer and buddy icons and basically all the day-to-day features of the AIM client, and then 0.71 with encrypted chatting (something AIM /didn't/ have), a lot of people started looking at it seriously as a way to save resources instead of having AIM, ICQ, MSN and Y! all open at once. Trillian made a lot of news reports...and so it came to the attention of AOL. I.e. Cerulean woke the sleeping giant.

No, but many people respond to the 'we don't like this message' with the counter that AOL has the legal right to block. I just figured I would cover that ahead of time. :)

Believe me... I have to use MSN for work, AIM for a project I'm part of, and I have a lot of ICQ contacts too. Without Trillian, my little system tray gets clogged fast...I am a diehard Trillian supporter for that reason, and I'm one of the beta team.

I just choose to recognize AOL has a legal (but not moral) right to block us if they choose...just as Microsoft has a legal (but not moral) right to block all Netscape/AOL or Opera users from Hotmail if they choose. And given that AOL already thumbed their nose at the FCC by finding a loophole in the 'open your IM network' term of the AOL/TW deal, I reaaaaally doubt that AOL's legal right to do this would hold up in court anymore than Microsoft's legal right to block all non-IE users from Hotmail would.

Because you know someone out there is waiting to pounce on AOL after their legal trickery with the AOL/TW merger terms. :)

Addendum...note that 'login.toc.aol.com' and 'login.oscar.aol.com' both accept both protocols, as far as I know. I.e. it's possible to connect via OSCAR through login.toc.aol.com, and via TOC through login.oscar.aol.com.

Most of the TOC stuff I've seen logs in through login.oscar.aol.com 'cause that server is a heck of a lot faster for the authentication and dispatch. So that can be confusing. :)

What is their loophole? That they provide the TOC?

No. They laid down future plans for AIM, saying 'here are the features we plan to add, and when.' The ruling was 'okay. TOC sucks and is not really opening your network...you need to have to open before you add these features, here.' The features on the timeline chosen - video chat and other broadband features - were something AIM had said they wanted to have in like a year; the ruling was that they had to have the network opened before they worked on adding those.

Of course, as soon as the ink was dry, AOL turned around and announced...gosh, we decided we're not going to add video chat or broadband options. So since we're going to add them never, we have to open up AIM...ah, just before never?

Who was right? :-P

Everyone, I think that we should all send complaints at:

http://www.aol.com/info/feedback.html !!! I have had this happen to me many times just this morning!

Hopefully the people at Cerulean Studios can make another patch for Trillian!!! If you haven't already you should donate some money to Trillian!

It's too late for that now, it just became illegal for Cerulean Studios to work on it.

What do you mean it became illegal for Cerulean Studios??? I have not heard about that! What is the deal???

-- Michael

AOL is telling users that it is an unauthorized client. Someone at Cerulean Studios has gotten the message. That's all it takes.

Oh, That is definately bad!!!

I hope that Trillian will create its own network! Then all of us can get all of our buddies to get on Trillian! We can sort of Boycott AOL. Maybe they will change their minds. If they don't they might just loose tons of AOL IM people!

-- Michael

AOL won't lose my business. I believe they have every right. ;-)

Fewt - Just because Cerulean studios is doing something that AOL doesn't want, doesn't make it illegal. (At least not in America)

Yeah you sound like a typical AOL user.

DMCA guy, go read it.

Don't go there. I'm smarter than you.

LOL
Remember what I said about you sounding like an AOL user? You've just proved me right. haha.

FYI, that was said tounge in cheek.

Yeah I've read it. Trillian hasn't reverse-engineered the AIM client if that's what you're implying. They're just smart enough to make their own client that is, in fact, better.

The way I understand DMCA, they have created a client that bypasses AOL's security and attaches to AOL's AIM servers. That's a direct violation of DMCA. Unfortunately that also makes anyone that uses it guilty of violating DMCA. Look at the news rticles from yesterday about a SERIAL CABLE. ;-) I think the DMCA SUCKS, but until we defeat it, it's the law.

The Trillian client does not bypass any of AOL's security. Spokespeople from AOL are saying that but there is absolutely no truth to it. The truth is that they want AIM to themselves, but they're gonna get left behind unless they start working for inter-operability.

Posted by fewt on 2002-02-15 13:16:10
"The way I understand DMCA, they have created a client that bypasses AOL's security and attaches to AOL's AIM servers. That's a direct violation of DMCA. Unfortunately that also makes anyone that uses it guilty of violating DMCA. Look at the news rticles from yesterday about a SERIAL CABLE. ;-) I think the DMCA SUCKS, but until we defeat it, it's the law. "

Enough said.

Didn't hope it would come to this. Seems like a shame. I guess if it means that much to them to have people using their client.

I'm wodnering where this is coming from because .724 is still logging in and working fine with AIM servers for me. I wonder if Nate is running Trillian and is just having problems all his own. :) I dunno, maybe it just hasn't hit the server I'm on now. Oh well, anyone else still working fine with .724?

It'll happen pretty randomly and is not version specific, they just detect if you're running a non-AOL client. With the number of users they have connected at one time it may not affect everyone, at least not yet.

It does for a few mins until AOL detect that trillian is unauthorised. Then you get a messge and get disconnected. I think trillian is a really great client. All it is trying to do is to provide a unified instant messaging service for users. Companies like aol should be working with and not against companies like trillian. The current actions of AOL leave me with no faith in their large coporation anymore.

Why? Why is it wrong for someone to protect their own property?

They do have every -right-. Unfortunately for AOL, it's proven to be a silly and immature move. Look how quickly Trillian has released patches to circumvent them.

Now AOL can do something about it legally though.

Yeah, good for them. Woo-hoo, the multibillion dollar corp. won against the small freeware startup!

I think this is going to be a pyrrhic victory though. There are plenty of IM alternatives; MSN Messenger for example is getting better and better, and it's installed by default with Windows XP.

It's getting better and better as long as you like worms, and viral infections. :-P

I suspect this is just a generic "micro$$$oft sux0rz" troll.

BUT, if you can find me two major worms that hit Messenger over the past year, and were not easily solved with an earlier patch, I'll personally apologize to you.

They can protect their own property all they want. But if Trillian is hurting their userbase badly enough that they have to release new blocks for Trillian users every day or so, then you have to wonder if maybe they ought to be attempting to improve their own property instead.

Obviously there's SOME reason everybody keeps switching to Trillian, and I seriously doubt it's only the lack of ads.

Uhh, I was kidding. I suppose I should have said that in the post. I love how you likened me to an "M$ SUXORS TROLL" though. ;-)

I didn't liken you to a troll, I called your previous post a troll. Maybe I jumped the gun, but you have to admit it fits the canonical definition.

Regardless, I don't care. I use what works, and right now it ain't the AIM network.

Oh yeah.. btw... it did finally start doing it to me. Sucks ass.

The people should say Goodbye AOL !!!!!

Who wants to use you crappy and ugly client anyway.
I think if AOL wants to continue with it's actions then eventually it will find itself with a 10 Users DB because all will leave AIM and move to MSN or Yahoo.

These action taken by AOL only indicates that this company is about to crack down and fall.
I think I smell chapter 11.

Session Start (AIM - ajohnson1200:AOL Instant Messenger): Fri Feb 15 09:33:05 2002
AOL Instant Messenger: You have been disconnected from the AOL Instant Message Service (SM) for accessing the AOL network using unauthorized software. You can download a FREE, fully featured, and authorized client, here (Link: http://www.aol.com/aim/d....com/aim/download2.html .
ajohnson1200: course, your version sucks
ajohnson1200: big corporate bas****s! have a great day crushing the small guy!
ajohnson1200: I hope you go to bed feeling better about yourselves...
ajohnson1200: do you get good vibes from killing small puppies too?
ajohnson1200: maybe you should spend some time making your own software as good as theirs... see, then you wouldn't have this problem.
ajohnson1200: I guess you're just jealous because someone did something better than you did.
ajohnson1200: well, thanks for being d***s!
ajohnson1200: bye!
ajohnson1200: oh wait, do you have the link to get MSN Messenger? I think I'm going to download theirs first...
ajohnson1200: oh wait... you're so big that you don't even have someone listening to this IM...
ajohnson1200: maybe, just maybe, if you LISTENED to your own damn customers... maybe then YOUR AIM client would be better than everyone else's...
ajohnson1200: but then you're so big and mighty that you don't have to listen to your own customers
ajohnson1200: but I'm rambling now.
ajohnson1200: Thanks for listening!

I'm actually glad they have done this. If they don't, the next thing you know I'll be getting 10-20 spam messages a day asking me to link out to {insert porn site of the day here}

Understand that people could still send SPAM messages through AIM even thought AIM is blocking trillian.

Had you read earlier posts you would realize that Trillian uses the OSCAR protocol, but there are some other clients that use the TOC protocol (which AOL is not blocking).

If AIM or ICQ looked or worked as nice as Trillian did, had as good support as Trillian does, and let me have one buddy list for all messengers, I'd use them.

I use Trillian because it provides better service. I actually donated money for Trillian, twice. I would pay a yearly service fee for better service (and no ads!) from one of AOL's clients. As it is, I'm going to stop using AIM just as soon as I've convinced my friends on AIM to switch to MSN...

I have read earlier posts, I understand the difference between OSCAR and TOC. Hell I could write a client if I wanted to. Trillian should use TOC and just get over themselves.

So because Trillian is using the OSCAR protocol, you're gonna get 10-20 Spam messages a day which you won't get if they switch to TOC?

Fewt said - "I'm actually glad they have done this. If they don't, the next thing you know I'll be getting 10-20 spam messages a day asking me to link out to {insert porn site of the day here}"

No, if AOL doesn't take control of their protocol it will happen. TOC is limited, it's crap, it's not good enough to be used as a spam tool like OSCAR likely is.

If you're talking about those messages that are just hyperlinked to a porn site, then TOC would work just fine. OSCAR supports things like file transfer, I've not yet gotten a spam on IRC that required a file transfer. AOL actually lets other clients connect to AIM using TOC.

Fewt said - "No, if AOL doesn't take control of their protocol it will happen. TOC is limited, it's crap, it's not good enough to be used as a spam tool like OSCAR likely is."

Whoops....in my last post it should say "I've never gotten a spam from ICQ that required a file transfer" (Not IRC)

TOC supported limited userlists, unless the spammer came up with something to compensate it would be difficult. I think it would be easier to spam with TOC. I may have this backwards though. Regardless I have never gottan an AIM spam message, there has to be a good reason for it.

Fewt - I'm confused....you've just directly contradicted yourself. Care to clarify?

In an earlier post you said:
"TOC is limited, it's crap, it's not good enough to be used as a spam tool like OSCAR likely is"

Then 2 posts later you say:
"I think it would be easier to spam with TOC"

i got an aim spam message this morning. it said:

AOL Instant Messenger: You have been disconnected from the AOL Instant Message Service (SM) for accessing the AOL network using unauthorized software. You can download a FREE, fully featured, and authorized client, here http://www.aol.com/aim/download2.html

i sure as hell didn't request that.

I don't get spam under AIM, but that's only because I don't use it, hehe....last time I tried, ZoneAlarm had 50 hits in less than 5 minutes. That ended my AIM usage.

James Wheat
http://belprecomputerwizard.com

Then I said that I may be mistaken and have them backwards, back off.

That's not spam, it's a message from your service provider.

I only use AIM at work because that's what everyone else on the team uses. I haven't ever gotten any spam messages using it. I prefer ICQ.

Wow, what a surprise message coming from an obvious AOL/TW shill.
Where do they find people like you ? Of course, using AOL. Guess you now know why *all* mails from AOL accounts get filed under WPB.
The number of credulous fools in the world never ceases to amaze me. When it comes to human stupidity, Einstein had it right.

How am I a AOL/TW shill? I'll be the first to speak out against them if I feel they have done wrong.

Yeah I think he knew that. It's called being sarcastic.

Really?

NO. It's a good thing you corrected him because I'm sure he really thought it was spam.

they haven't been providing me with any service today.

AMEN!

Chapter 11? LMAO!!!

As much as I can't stand AOL, AOL is long from filing for Chapter 11... The company is "AOL TIME WARNER" as in, THAT TIME WARNER.

Time Warner cable, Warner Brothers Studios, Time Magazine...

Nope, no chapter 11 in the forseeable future.

Having just done an idle test using a TOC library and my two AIM accounts, you don't have to have someone in your buddy list in TOC to send a message to them. So it's perfectly possible to spam using TOC as opposed to OSCAR. Neither has a way of randomly discovering usernams to spam...

About the only way I can see which OSCAR could be used to spam 'more efficiently' and so would be a security risk would be to have a bot which joined whatever group chats it could to harvest names. Whoo-ha. It'd be easy enough for a spammer just to take all the @aol.com addresses off of a CD, strip everything after the '@' symbol and use those nicknames for a TOC-based IM spam...you'd at least get some hits.

I had friends who worked at an e-mail server company, and I've sat down to brainstorm spam methods as a 'how would you stop this' exercise with them before. Can you tell? :)

Anyway, all legality aside...if Trillian connecting to the AIM servers is a serious security concern, then AOL needs to seriously re-examine their protocol design. :)

--Rachel

I see. I was somewhat unsure how it would be possible. It's easy to create a dictionary based bot though. AOL's ISP service used name/number pairs I'm sure many of those accounts are still active.

for (;;} {
$address=$user.$number
sendaim($message,$address);
if ($number eq "9999") {
last;
}
++$number;

Just too easy.. ;-)

I find this oddly funny, though.

Back when Trillian used basically a TOC-like level of service, people were flaming in the Trillian forums, 'what kind of crappy IM software doesn't have file transfer? Dammit, why can't I have all the features I do in AIM? I want my file transfer/buddy icons/etc etc etc'. So Scott and Kevin worked really hard to implement all those things and now people say 'dammit, why aren't you just using TOC?'

Sometimes a software developer who actually listens to their customer base just can't win. ;P

OMG, I hit 100 typos per minute! (haha)

SAVE TRILLIAN!
http://www.petitiononline.com/openIM/

No, lets not.