Interesting thread.
My linux box never crashes & never gets viruses, I have lost count of the number of times, I have had the above in windows! As for driver support, I`ve built my pc around linux and not the other way about.You will generaly find that cheep hardware isn`t supported by linux, because coders wont waste time writing drivers for second rate stuff! I must say that Nvidias GFX drivers are second to none (last time I looked Nvidia was a commercial company, with more than a passing interest in linux).
Using Transgamings winex/cedega I can run all my favorite 3d games, including the newer releases. On the Unreal tournament cd`s (again made by a commercial games company) there are linux installers.
Using cross over office I can run microsoft office on my desktop. I can even run Internet Explorer, for those awful sites which demand it.
The latest release of Xine will play movies using all the current codecs.

and "Linux will *never* be a desktop OS" ?

I beg to differ.

Feh.

Linux will *never* be a desktop OS. Not for the mindless sheep.

Lack of standardization, plain and simple. 1300 distros, each installing 1300 text-editors. One installs KDE, the other GNOME. Neither are compatible, and neither accept user input the same way. But amazingly, both are called Linux.

In a world where the desktop *is* the OS, the sheep will not use an OS that can't decide what it is and how it works.

Pure and simple. App support has nothing to do with it...the sheep will use anything you give them, which explains Outlook (to 2003) and AOL.

Flame on, friends.

Linux IS a desktop OS, plain and simple.

"In a world where the desktop *is* the OS, the sheep will not use an OS that can't decide what it is and how it works."

My parents are "mindless sheep", and they use Mandriva Linux 2005. I explained to them how it worked and off they went.

I dunno about the US, but over here, if Apple, Mandriva, Red hat, etc, selled PC OSes in the computer stores, it would boost the number of Linux users.

"But amazingly, both are called Linux."
Linux is not KDE. It's not X Windows. It's the kernal. Nothing more.

Bulls***

"E-mail was rated as the most critical application to computer users regardless of platform, followed by office productivity tools and the Web browser."
What's wrong with Kmail, OpenOffice and Firefox?

"Some suggested a Mac-like interface for Linux, which would make the operating system less intimidating to novice computer users."
*cough*
KDE is already explorer like, and can be customized to be similar to finder.

"Less frequently mentioned reasons for desktop Linux not taking off were lack of OEM support for hardware, difficulty in playing multimedia Web content, and no native Windows application support."
I dunno about other distros, but Mandriva supports almost every hardware Windows does, NATIVELY.

"no native Windows application support"
Don't want it.

"Ranked highest among the reasons for deploying Linux were total cost of ownership and a reduction in licensing costs. OSDL said that security appears to no longer be a top reason for switching to the Linux platform."
Unix based Operating systems are the most secure (mac included?)...

"Linux is not that hard to use, but it is very clunky to set up if you have “exotic” hardware."
If you have special hardware, you can often find special software called "Drivers" on the internet :)

[/endofrant]

"What's wrong with Kmail, OpenOffice and Firefox?"
Firefox is OK, but OpenOffice and KMail is not really a good software compared to let say Microsoft Office or Outlook. And Evolution kicks KMail a** all over the court anyway.

"KDE is already explorer like, and can be customized to be similar to finder."
KDE latest version is light-years behind OS X offering. I wonder if you ever use both side-by-side.

"I dunno about other distros, but Mandriva supports almost every hardware Windows does, NATIVELY."
Hahahaha, but you and I know it is not true. I can give you a list of exotic hardware that works on Windows but not on Linux. Just because Mandriva is good doesn't mean Linux is good. Hardware detection should be uniform across all Linux distros. The fact that it isn't shows how immature Linux still is.

"Don't want it."
Then Linux users missed out a lot of important Windows applications, such as CAD applications, tax accounting software, video games etc. Now ownder people are not switching.

"Unix based Operating systems are the most secure (mac included?)..."
And WIndows can be make secure too. If you know what you are doing.

"If you have special hardware, you can often find special software called "Drivers" on the internet :)"
And it doesn't always works.

"Firefox is OK, but OpenOffice and KMail is not really a good software compared to let say Microsoft Office or Outlook. And Evolution kicks KMail a** all over the court anyway."
I find Outlook is too bulky. It offers too much.

Evolution is good, but not as good as Kmail. Any app that has a system tray icon automaticly gains a point with me, but Kmail is also intergrated into my desktop enviroment.

Open Office is slow on my system, but Koffice works ^_^

"KDE latest version is light-years behind OS X offering. I wonder if you ever use both side-by-side."
I don't use Mac, but I know that KDE is ahead as it (and Explorer in Windows) are far more advanced.

"Hahahaha, but you and I know it is not true. I can give you a list of exotic hardware that works on Windows but not on Linux. Just because Mandriva is good doesn't mean Linux is good. Hardware detection should be uniform across all Linux distros. The fact that it isn't shows how immature Linux still is."
I did say natively. Linux isn't immature, it's mature. Mandriva, Fedora, Suse, etc, is "the linux" that people see, not the bare kernal. So what these distros do and support determines what it can do.

"Then Linux users missed out a lot of important Windows applications, such as CAD applications, tax accounting software, video games etc. Now ownder people are not switching."
Did you hear about Doom3 for Linux? Did you hear about Open office or Koffice? Did you know that you can find apps of any type for KDE or Gnome?

""Unix based Operating systems are the most secure (mac included?)..."
And WIndows can be make secure too. If you know what you are doing."
Yeah, I know. Pull that network cable out and you have a secure Windows.

"And it doesn't always works."
Most of the time it does. I know the ATI drivers didn't install for me... but then again, they didn't on Windows either :(

"Evolution is good, but not as good as Kmail. Any app that has a system tray icon automaticly gains a point with me, but Kmail is also intergrated into my desktop enviroment."

Evolution can intergrate with Microsoft Exchange Server flawlessly, of which any other open-source client can't do. If Evolution is ported to Windows (of which Novell should do), Thunderbird and Outlook will bite the dust. KMail can at best only be compared to OE.

"I don't use Mac, but I know that KDE is ahead as it (and Explorer in Windows) are far more advanced."
You should try OS X then for some time. The interface is so much better than KDE as of today. KDE is far ahead of Windows Explorer, but far behind OS X windows manager (if you want to call it that).

"I did say natively. Linux isn't immature, it's mature. Mandriva, Fedora, Suse, etc, is "the linux" that people see, not the bare kernal. So what these distros do and support determines what it can do."
Maybe I should have said 'distros" instead of Linux. There are just so many cases where drivers that works with Fedora will not work with SuSe, also there are also drivers that works with 2.4 that doesn't work with 2.6. This circumstances are what prevents wider adoptions of Linux. Linux should have the equivalent of Microsoft's WHQL mechanism so that drivers that works with Distro A with Linux kernel 2.4 will also work with Distro B with Linux kernel 2.6 without recompilations etc.

"Did you hear about Doom3 for Linux? Did you hear about Open office or Koffice? Did you know that you can find apps of any type for KDE or Gnome?"
I have heard of them of course. Then can you get me Linux versions of AutoCAD, Quicken, Serious Sam 2, Photoshop, Microsoft Office etc.
Saying that you can run those programs with WINE will not cut it for me because WINE will not give 100% performamnce and will be no support from the vendors of the software above.

"Yeah, I know. Pull that network cable out and you have a secure Windows."
Nope, it is easy to get network-connected WIndows safe and secure. No matter how you want top deny it, it will always be a fact.

"Most of the time it does. I know the ATI drivers didn't install for me... but then again, they didn't on Windows either :("
Yes, most of the time it does work. But still lower than Windows drivers that works "almost all the time".

Sure try telling that to hardware manufacturers, I'm sure that they'll listen!!!!
Ask belkin please... cause I really need the drivers!

"Evolution can intergrate with Microsoft Exchange Server flawlessly, of which any other open-source client can't do. If Evolution is ported to Windows (of which Novell should do), Thunderbird and Outlook will bite the dust. KMail can at best only be compared to OE."
KMail or Kontact, can be compared with Outlook and is ten times better :)

BTW: I use pop3 or IMAP, and most servers do too.
Naturally, Microstuffed servers will be for Microsoft programs only :P

"You should try OS X then for some time. The interface is so much better than KDE as of today. KDE is far ahead of Windows Explorer, but far behind OS X windows manager (if you want to call it that)."
No thanks. It doesn't work on a Pentium
(yet)

"Maybe I should have said 'distros" instead of Linux. There are just so many cases where drivers that works with Fedora will not work with SuSe, also there are also drivers that works with 2.4 that doesn't work with 2.6. This circumstances are what prevents wider adoptions of Linux. Linux should have the equivalent of Microsoft's WHQL mechanism so that drivers that works with Distro A with Linux kernel 2.4 will also work with Distro B with Linux kernel 2.6 without recompilations etc."

I have no idea what WHQL is, so I can't really comment.
But I know that it is rare to find something that doesn't work in Linux.

"I have heard of them of course. Then can you get me Linux versions of AutoCAD, Quicken, Serious Sam 2, Photoshop, Microsoft Office etc.
Saying that you can run those programs with WINE will not cut it for me because WINE will not give 100% performamnce and will be no support from the vendors of the software above"
I dunno about the game, but I can give you Gimp. I can give you KOffice. I can give you similar native programs.

BTW, Try Cross Over Office. I find it gives 200% better proformance with IE then Windows does.

"Nope, it is easy to get network-connected WIndows safe and secure. No matter how you want top deny it, it will always be a fact."
Okay, tell me how... without saying "Virus scanner" or "Security suite" or something similar. How can I prevert viruses on Windoze?

"Yes, most of the time it does work. But still lower than Windows drivers that works "almost all the time"."
Thats cause Linux has a better driver database then Windows.

Unless and until Linux puts some teeth in LSB it is going nowhere on the desktop. It has some really wonderful apps and is extremely flexable, but it needs to be Linux. It's currently 500 different flavors and none of them is entirely acceptable.
I run Mandriva 2006 on an old Gateway PC and it installed very easily with no difficulties whatsoever. Updating is a nightmare. The old Mandrake system allowed me to choose my updates, so I knew exactly what I was getting. The current setup gives me not a clue.
SuSE has become a lost cause, and that is a shame, because I once considered it the best.

Ok guys... settle down... I’m a WinXP and Linux user, I use WinXP Pro in the Office and a mix of WinXP / Mandriva at home, I use MSOffice 2003 in the office and Openoffice 2.0 at home. I like Linux, but I also have to admit that WinXP is a good OS, there’s no doubt about it… Let’s just say that first hardware vendors, don’t even care about making drivers for Linux, which a shame, because I had a hell of a hard time setting up a Belkin wireless usb module, no such headache in WinXP.
Hardware manufacturer have a hard time already getting good driver to the market, without having to make 13456 different versions for the Linux distros out there.
Roadmap for Linux should be:
1) create a common platform aka only one common distro, all the vendors can tweak the GUI develop applications, new resources what ever…
2) get the hardware manufacturers to make ONE driver compatible with the common platform
3) continue from there, everything else will fall into place

Get people to work together like in OpenOffice, and then the Linux base will be a little more attractive for the “regular Joe” as mentioned before.
Linux is not that hard to use, but it is very clunky to set up if you have “exotic” hardware.

They have done that today with everything except the kernel.

They call it LSB. ;-)

Which is sett o not install by default on many distro's...oddly enough. Mandrive being the latest one I tried that had it set to not install by default.

bas****s.

Time for a stupid question from a non geek how does the live cd work tried a couple searches but no real info come up for the questions i have such as
Does it just load onto my ram or does it use the hard drive as well.

Will it harm my windows installation this is very important to me since it tried duel booting back when mandrake 10(mandiva or whatever f**gy name it goes by now) first come out and it hosed my windows a few times and after sitting threw a couple windows installations vowed never again tried with a couple different duel booters but only with mandrake since it was suposed to have one of the smallest learning curves.

Will i have access to my mp3s on my hard drive not nesesary but i like my tunes on when surfing.

Last for now but what would be a good one to try out with a small learning curve no comand line i forget most of the comands never did realy care for them which is why i like windows my systems not to outdated yet 2800xp processor and a gig of ram.

A Live CD will not do anything to your Windows system or computer. Nothing is installed on your hard drive, at all. You merely put the Live CD in the CD drive and boot the computer, making sure the CD is the first boot device in BIOS. The system will boot up on the Live CD....play around all you want...then remove the Live CD and reboot...back to your Windows environment. Just remember, that the Linux distro will run slow, as it is running entirely off the CD.

I'm sure everyone has a different opinion or suggestion, but I'd suggest you try a Live CD from Mandriva or Ubuntu. You really won't need to use the command line, in most cases, at least with Mandriva. I don't have a good answer on you rmp3 access, however, as I really haven't played much with Live CD's.

email software? thunderbird?
productivity suite? openoffice?

i do agree that lack of quality software is holding back linux but i find that the user friendliness is the real issue. there are too many different setups and software installation if a big hold back.

Openoffice is going to be good when verion 2 gets air underits wings

Thunderbird is still one of the worst e-mail clients out there. If it hadent been for it partnership with the brilliant Firefox, noone would know of it, and much less use it.

Email software means something that can compete head to head with Outlook, and Thunderbird is not there...

Be realistic... email tools for Linux are more Outlook Express-like.

That's the thing... "Openoffice is going..." but it is not right now... and Microsoft Office IS the one.

Again, give me a mail client for Linux as rich as Microsoft Outlook, then we can talk about Desktop Linux.

The title of the article is "App Support Holds Back Desktop Linux".
I recently installed an Ubuntu Hoary Hedghog DVD on a new computer. First of all why is it that Linux distros have such geeky names? Anyways, installation was easy and automatic... BUT it did not detect my modem. Did not detect my sound card. Video was poor. And no easy way to look for updates or drivers. Documentation was non-existent. Their idea of a control panel is a joke.
Should all computer users be Unix programmers?

Until Linux is unified into one professional distro and has adaquate support for hardware, it will remain a niche OS.

Please no flames from the usual idiot(s).

It's not really just about the email-- it's about interfacing w/ what's already out there & established, as well as getting away from the command prompt totally. Take multimedia: i work on the web with sites containing embedded / live streaming Real & WMP content-- i can't access most content while on linux, even with Real properly installed. So forget me, i'm in the minority-- but this also means folks are going to have trouble with their video news clips, music videos, porn, etc.
And let's not even get into the Herculean command line efforts needed to just add, install, and update apps.
From a pure performance standpoint, to wit re multitasking & 64 bit-- Linux kicks Windows' butt-- similar to how supercomputer/workstations far outpace desktops; but it will likely never be ready for mainstream.
Its only chance would be if the cell processor rescues it, IBM's spearheading a project to port Linux to it. The cell processor developed by ibm/toshiba/sony will go into the next sony game console-- is many times faster than the fastest current 64bit processor. The current competition: amd's dual core vs intel's hyper-threaded single core-- pales next to the cell's combo multi-core(8) AND multithread, and it's just the initial release. It only needs an OS created for it in order to make it to the desktop, but again--if that OS requires substantial command line work & cannot interface with most web content seamlessly-- it will not reach mainstream either.
Sun has been in possession of an even better technology for a while now-- it can grid dozens of processors & memory sticks together with no need for a bus...that likely won't reach us either.

I don't think I've used the command line for installing, removing nor updating more than perhaps one or two applications with Linux. Most distributions have some sort of GUI program to handle that. I have found YAST in SUSE to do the job very well, after merely adding five or six sources to the Installation Sources and having them refresh regularly.

Likewise, with WMP content and live streaming Real...seems to work fine if one merely adds a source to YAST for the commercial programs which cannot be packaged with Linux, due for legal reasons.

I won't argue that working from a command line is a pain, as it is. I'm just pointing out that if one adds a few Installation Sources to their Linux distro, everything plays quite well, really.

Tell me how to kill `ps -fu fewt | awk '{print $2}' | grep [0-9]` on Windows.

How about for item in *; do cat $item | sed s#fewt#twef#g >$item_new;mv $item_new $item; gzip $item; done

The command line is the most useful thing ever created. Many folks pay hundreds sometimes thousands of dollars for products to do what I can do in less than one minte with a good shell + the GNU toolkit.

They will never know, and you know what I'm ok with that because *WE* that know how to use the command line are *MUCH* more valuable to employers and those that bash the command line with complete disregard for it's power are just jealous.

Typing has ALWAY been faster than a mouse. I agree 100% that command lines are much faster than most anything in a GUI. And for those who will want to dissagree, so be it. Even in Windows! Once you have learned how to do it, (and it really isn't that hard if you spend the time to do it) you would wonder why you did it any other way.

I don't know how to install anything in Linux other than in a command line.

EDIT: So what, I am not perfect.

Yes, I agree and to somewhat contradict my own comment if you put cygwin on Windows it is nearly as powerful as a native Unix command line although it is not nearly as fast for some odd reason (in my experience anyway).

Even VBScript is cake though 10 times more lines of code to do simple things such as opening a text file (using FSO), or sending an email (using CDOSYS or CDONTS on legacy Windows).

;-)

I was commenting on the statement that you can't do anything except from the command line, as was stated in the prior post. While you can, it's really not a necessity with most current distros. I've worked in places where we did virtually everything from the command line in Unix and it wasn't a problem, for sure. Likewise, when I used to use DOS, it was natural to do as you did everything there. YAST is quite user friendly for updates, installs and uninstalls though and really contradicts the idea that the command line is necessary for performing those functions.

Its pretty ridiculous some of your comments.. I use Windows 2003 Server.. I use Linux.. If a company wants to pitch out a couple thousand in software I install Windows... If they want something that works well for no cost.. I install Linux. Linux has an easy to use interface.. I run America's Army on mine just fine. There are some excellent email programs on Linux.. Lets see... Thunderbird? etc.. I Samba replaces anything 2003 server does.. Setting it up as a workstation works perfectly also.. OpenOffice... Firefox.. etc... Plenty of software support just people that aren't willing to try something new... Ignorance is no excuse.. I got tired of reading your posts about half way through.. If you don't know or understand something please keep your opinions to yourself.. It gives some of us headaches.

If the Linux distro developers were serious about getting users to switch they would aproach Microsoft for help to develop a version that can be installed to a partition or other drive that can be installed using windows.

Microsoft loves good PR and this would be enough for microsoft to claim they are not a monopoly(i don't think they are there are lots of other alternatives out there)plus it might help sales since you would need windows to do it and get some of the Linux users back to atleast trying windows again a good tactic if they allowed this starting with Vista so you would have to upgrade to do it plus add to the features of upgrading.

Have any Linux distro developers even tried talking with microsoft i haven't heard of any?

Before you flame Microsoft loves money and by doing this all you would have to do is show them this could easily make money by making more software available to this version of linux lets face it some people would want the windows and Linux versions so double sales anyone or charge more for a version that runs on both it would open the door back up to microsoft to some of the people who would not normaly run windows in the first place the more costomers the better right.

"Have any Linux distro developers even tried talking with microsoft i haven't heard of any?"

YEP, and Microsoft has even hired a few of them. Read some of the news on distrowatch.com. Every so often MS hires a well-known Linux distro developer (and/or distro founder). So, talking certainly occurs, just perhaps not what you had in mind :)

If I'm understanding you correctly, you're talking about having Linux running alongside Windows using a boot manager, correct? That's already a standard part of many distributions, it's probably not advertised or explained that well as a selling point on the Linux Distro websites.

You kinda sorta got what i meant but instead of duel booting software like lilo(i think thats what it's called been a while since i used it)have them work with windows so you just log into windows insert Linux disk and hit install and configure right in windows familiar UI to the partition or disk of choice very simplified you got to remember theres lots of people out there that don't even know how to format their drives to do a fresh install without all the other junk on there.(almost pissed myself laughing when i even seen a clasified add for someone asking for that)

Ya not the kind of talking i had in mind i wouldn't want them working for microsoft more of a give and take type thing such as microsoft helps them with things like drivers porting software over to the linux and of course making duel booting make easy using windows maybe a little code they wouldn't have access to before in return they don't bundle things like open office with the distro.

Of course i would only prefer this type of partnership with only one or two linux distros just keep it kind of simple because it's easier to deal with one or two groups than how many different linux groups are out there plus any code microsoft gives them they can control by not allowing it to be shared with the other groups kind of puts a dent in the open source nature of linux but as i said before it would have to be a give and take on both sides type partnership but it would be benifitial to both parties.

So... a Windows-based installer for Linux? That wouldn't be a bad idea... although, to be successful, you'd definately want to combine the ability to repartition or resize the active partition, which can get hairy without rebooting the system (i.e. PartitionMagic)

I definately think that you're thinking is correct and positive - and I think that you probably know that your views are a bit idealistic as Microsoft aren't going to help unless it's something like their opening up some of their proprietary formats by court-order.

Would you advocate MS-Linux? =-)

I don't think microsoft woould need a court order to hand over some things since they make more that OSs but they like any other company have enough trouble makeing sure that their software works on enough hardware software combinations that they are not going to be making sure it runs hundreds of versions of linux as well that are constantly changing hell even the spyware/virus makers consider it a waste of their time.

As i said it would have to be kept simple pick one or two distros that would be willing to work with microsoft and willing to stop making tons of changes every six months or so and do what microsoft does just a patch now and then(if you don't count security updates) and go by service packs every few years so the profits from software sales are not wasted on man power constantly having to change code to fix problems that arise every time the distro changes things around.

Stability is the key for a couple reasons first is not wasting profit on man power working against a moving target plus theres the matter of customers if the apps are not functioning properly a lot the time and need constant updates it makes the app look bad and thats bad PR thats why i suggested going with a system like service packs every other year it would bring stability and allow for things to be made and fixed with minimal manpower and improved customer experience and also allow these companies to plan their next version to sell and make more profit can't realy do that with a moving target now can you.

I think a windows based installer would be the best way to entice microsoft into helping out because that would mean they already got your money for the OS but then they get a chance to douple dip your wallet because theres plenty of people out there who would buy microsoft office(for example) for windows and linux OSs or charge more for a version that runs on both speak profit and they will listen.

Exactly what I have been saying. Everyone believes Linux is the future.. of what? You have to HAVE something to BE something. Linux is an upstart, it has no support, a la, applications and the gaming community hasn't even come close to adopting it. I se no mention of ANY commercial games planning to port to Linux. I find it amazing people continue to support a platform that is only comprised of a small OS footprint, and nothing to run on it...

And the reason there is NO operating system option, is because that's how manufacturers make their money, by signing deals with Big Software companies to package software. They did this once before, and a machine actually costs MORE to configure, usually 2-3 hundred dollars, since you are NOT taking the default APPS.

The thing that is perpetually stupid, and what people don't realize is, just take the damn OS. You are going to format and delete it anyway, so WHO CARES what OS is on it, most of us will start fresh anyway.

People that buy machines preconfigured, are interested in being productive right away, and are not concerned with WHAT OS they have, as long as they have applications they can run, that's why there are so many apps pre-installed.

I was once on the Linux "bandwagon". I even went out and got my Linux + after using Linux for about a year.

Since 2003 I have heard tons and tons of promises that have never happened. By 2005 Linux was to have been able to have a really easy to configure and well working desktop. Didn't happen.

Linux sucks point blank. There are too many distro's and they are flung all over the place. It is so decentralized that it hurts them.

I can configure some stuff in linux but still have trouble with certain things. I usually ran Slackware or Redhat. Average Joe's are not going to be able to ever run Linux. Linux is junk and it's days are over.

I'd rather run an NT4 server than anything Linux these days.

Per your comment: "Average Joe's are not going to be able to ever run Linux. Linux is junk and it's days are over."....

WOW, if you read my earlier posts, I talk about how even my 60+ aged parents are able to run Linux, as is my daughter, (and some of her teenage and younger cousins). So, your statement is obviously an OVER-GENERALIZATION AND FALSE -- some "average joes" WILL run Linux, just not all, and perhaps not many.

And, I think if you are the betting type, there are plenty that would bet against you and WIN. Linux will not be going away anytime soon. Find a lawyer to draw up the contract for a five-year time frame, and I'll take the bet - whatever you want to lose.

I will agree with the part about too many distros and how that hurts their cause. NO DOUBT. Seems like hardly a week goes by without a new distro being announced.

If people would funnel their time and effort into improving one of a few good already existing distros instead, Linux would be way further ahead. The same goes for all the Linux APPLICATIONS that do darn near the same thing. I think too many Linux developers feel the only way to make their mark in development is to create something NEW instead of assisting the progress of existing projects. Certainly some apps/distros merit a ground-up approach, but that should be a rare thing -- not what we see now.

I'm sorry, but it seems you personally have a beef against Linux in general that prevents you from seeing ANY good in it. I can admit Windows is better for some things, as is Linux. And, each has their issues. But, Linux is certainly not just "junk".

I was wondering if another thing that holds back Desktop Linux is the fact that with new computers from Dell, HP, Gateway, etc, you have NO OPTION to get a new computer with NO OPERATING SYSTEM installed, and likewise no discount for not choosing Microsoft, and thus no "savings" for getting a computer with a bare hard-drive on which to install Linux.

I find that QUITE sad and frustrating. I want to buy a new notebook, but I do not want Windows on it! Whether the hardware vendor says "Windows included for free" or not, they are paying something for it and including it in the cost. I want that amount as a discount, even if it is $20.00, since I do not want Windows. And, better yet, you can not sell the OEM Windows CDs you get with your system per the licensing OEMs have with MS. So, no way to get any money back for Windows - perhaps this is PART (maybe small part) of why many just stick with Windows??

The reason for this, is because Dell, Hp, Gateway etc. Gets a Discount for ONLY using windows Operating systems.

Hence the reason why Dell only features Intel processors when the consumer knows AMD bests Intel by far.

Yes, I am well aware of the reasons.
I just find it rather annoying for the few of us that want to install our own, already owned, operating system - be it Linux or the WinXP we already have.

waaaah waaaaah I want a brand name car with no wind shield wipers. I like Bosch wipers, I'm gonna put them on anyway so why should I have to pay for lexus wipers? When are these auto maufacturers gonna get it? Quit whining and build your own PC if you don't want an OS pre-installed. Do you think it is worth it for HP to not install an OS for the .1% of people who use linux and would actually buy their pre-configured no choice in MS, Mem or anything computers?

I bet you $1 you can get a car without windshield wipers.

You'll just need to bring some when you pick it up.

TRY IT.

Oh I know, that's why I custom build. It's not very hard if you don't know how to do it. Goto tigerdirect, they actually sell "barebones" computers without a HDD or OS. Pick one of those suckers up, slap a HDD of your choice in it, and you can install WHATEVER OS you want :)

You build your own laptop! Sure, building a custom PC is an option, but that's not a solve-all retort - it's certainly one that is null and voided with the fact that building a laptop isn't very feasible.

I think that providing a computer without software i.e. a computer with a blank HD is just as difficult as offering different size HDs as options. It's a legitimate idea, especially for users who may want to use the version of Windows that they legally own from their former computer that they may A) have 'died', B) want to try Linux on, C) have misplaced, D) Any reason -- it's a legitimate idea.

Laptops too? :)

You can get the laptops on eBay.

You can also find laptops without an O/S available on PriceWatch.

Try these as obvious deficiencies:

- An out-of-box installation experience that needs to rival that of Windows for ease of installation. A sixty year old grandmother who has never used a computer before has to be able to get it.
- MUCH better support for multimedia hardware needed (TV Tuner cards, remote control devices, quality audio card support, etc.). that support has to be painfully simple to configure a la Windows.
- Linux needs to be able to spell multimedia in general, not just pay it lip service. As an example, that means niceties like 7.1 sound card support for audio cards other than run-of-the-mill Creative Labs dreck, and support for ALL the features of a given piece of hardware, matching those found in comparable Windows drivers (little things like audio presets, custom video control panels, etc.). What, the vendor didn't expose all those interfaces and all you have is a reference design? To bad. Reverse engineered half-assed solutions ain't gonna get you there.
- dvd and video editing in the class of the Pinnacle stuff, image editing programs in the class of Pain Shop Pro, players in the league of PowerDVD XP, audio manipulation tools a la GoldWave, etc.
- better and more mature application user interfaces for those apps - the whole "designed by geeks for geeks" mindset of most Linux apps doesn't cut it. You're in the REAL world now - consumers expect finesse, help files, wizards, etc..

Those are just a few things that are missing.

They're not there now and they never will be. I've heard the claims and promises - for YEARS. None have materialized.

That's why Linux has been, is and will continue to be an "also-ran" on the desktop.

I will only object strongly to ONE of your assertions: "- An out-of-box installation experience that needs to rival that of Windows for ease of installation. A sixty year old grandmother who has never used a computer before has to be able to get it."

Well, my father is nearly 70 and my mother is mid-60's. Both have TRIED to install/operate Windows XP on modern equipment and failed. I was sick of the phonecalls to support their Windows troubles, and sick of reinstalling stuff when it was messed up... so, I've given them Kanotix 2005-03 bootable/LiveCD Linux to use.

And, both have loved how simple it is to use for things like web-surfing, Email, playing a DVD, and typing up a letter in OpenOffice and exporting a PDF. They don't care what is "installed" on their computer so long as it works and they can do a few basic things. And, they (and I) no longer worry about viruses on their hard-drive. What little they need to save goes on a USB key-drive.

Your other points are well taken. Linux suffers from many problems yet, and may forever. But, I have personally been mega-impressed by how it solves both my personal and corporate needs with ease.

One thing is for certain, Linux is well ahead in the LiveCD/bootable-CD area. I challenge Microsoft to make a version of Windows that can boot from CD and have all common apps installed already... and boot in under a minute. Good luck!

The thing is, most in the linux community could care less if it replaces a windows box. They like it for linux's sake. Sure some evangelize it, other's berate even the thought of use of a windows box, still others (like me) use both platforms for their strengths (in linux it's networking, control over every aspect of the PC, and customization,) and in windows it's gaming, compatibility, administration of other windows boxen. I spend 80% of my time on Windows to do my job, but I gleefully like using Linux just because of the cool new things coming on board and that I am learning more about a network stack from it. I love not having an AV on it and knowing I never will need one.

As for Grandma, she could install Ubuntu if she could install windows. Windows XP asks more questions, two reboots, and has an annoying key you must enter, ubuntu on a desktop has maybe 5 prompts and one reboot.

Both have a lot of ways to go. The security on both still takes hours to update to current standards (although ubuntu has a head start,) and XP has the beginnings of DRM while linux doesn't have full mobility and hardware support.

To each their own.

"- An out-of-box installation experience that needs to rival that of Windows for ease of installation. A sixty year old grandmother who has never used a computer before has to be able to get it."

Did your grandmother install Windows? Does she know where to get the driver for "Unknown Device"?

"- MUCH better support for multimedia hardware needed (TV Tuner cards, remote control devices, quality audio card support, etc.). that support has to be painfully simple to configure a la Windows."

Most of these are ahehehem uhh "supported", but yeah they should be 100% supported by the manufacturer. Maybe that would happen if Linux had a real driver model.

"- Linux needs to be able to spell multimedia in general, not just pay it lip service. As an example, that means niceties like 7.1 sound card support for audio cards other than run-of-the-mill Creative Labs dreck, and support for ALL the features of a given piece of hardware, matching those found in comparable Windows drivers (little things like audio presets, custom video control panels, etc.). What, the vendor didn't expose all those interfaces and all you have is a reference design? To bad. Reverse engineered half-assed solutions ain't gonna get you there."

Not Linux's problem, but it's Linux's problem since their driver model sucks. You addressed this one before though.

"- dvd and video editing in the class of the Pinnacle stuff, image editing programs in the class of Pain Shop Pro, players in the league of PowerDVD XP, audio manipulation tools a la GoldWave, etc."

Maya, Blender, Xine & Mplayer etc. It's there, and there are multiple award winning moves created with Linux render farms to prove it.

"- better and more mature application user interfaces for those apps - the whole "designed by geeks for geeks" mindset of most Linux apps doesn't cut it. You're in the REAL world now - consumers expect finesse, help files, wizards, etc.."

This is changing, in the past it was a MESS and desktops looked like crap. Now, if there were a few real talented GUI guys working on themes (other than myself, as my themes aren't so good but are rated very high) then this could change overnight. The framework to support it is there and has been for some time.

"Those are just a few things that are missing."

The Linux driver model sucks, and Linux will suck until it changes. As much as I hate to say it.

"They're not there now and they never will be."

They are close, with a 180 in a few areas they could be there the day after tomorrow. The problem is that they don't want to be or they would fix the obvious weanesses in the kernel.

" I've heard the claims and promises - for YEARS. None have materialized."

In my opinion, for the reason stated above.

"That's why Linux has been, is and will continue to be an "also-ran" on the desktop."

On the desktop, perhaps.

The fact that my Grandmother can't install Windows is irrelevant, the part you are missing is, USING the OS.

Can people who have never seen a computer before be up and running with an OS that has ALL the applications they need, with minimal effort, and go to a local software store and get what they need?

The answer is *NO*. That's why we can't condone Linux.

You want to use it, go ahead, nothing is preventing you from using it. But 50 bucks says your parents, your teachers, your uncles, and aunts with *NO* experience using ANY OS, will *NOT* be functional or happy with Linux. Period.

APPLE is the most intuitive and user friendly interface. Windows is easy because there are many people around that know how to use it if you get stuck.

What does Linux have? Nothing, Zip, Nil.. you can't even buy the CD's for many Linux OS'es in the store, they sell what RedHat and Suse. That's great. If its the same as what's installed, but you can download, but ONLY if you currently have an OS that can use to get on the Internet in the first place.

Driver support is another issue. Linux doesn't support my SATA driver natively, I have download a driver, to get it to work. All I need in Windows is an internet connection, and Windows Updates takes care of the rest.

I hate to agree with such cynical statements, but you're absolutely right on all points, roj. Linux is abysmally lacking in many areas of multimedia support and this is what turns most people off. Even though I'm a geek, I don't have the time or the patience to futz around for days trying to install equipment that hooks up almost instantly in a Mac or Windows environment.

One of the most important things to me is an integrated color-managed workspace. I've tried several distros of Linux and none of them met my needs when it came to color management. That is a critical flaw. I can't stress how important it is for someone who works with graphics or video all day long to have a properly color-managed workflow. Since Linux doesn't even have many of the drivers for the equipment I use, much less the software I rely on to make my living, it will never be a viable solution for digital artists, photographers, graphic designers, etc.

People are used to a certain standard now and they're not about to go backwards for Linux or any other company, no matter how good the cause.

>>"But 50 bucks says your parents, your teachers, your uncles, and aunts with *NO* experience using ANY OS, will *NOT* be functional or happy with Linux. Period."

Perhaps so. But, that same $50bucks says those people will NOT be functional with ANY O.S., be it Windows or something else.

If a person's "being functional with" an O.S. involves the many people that are around to assist them with it, then it is mainly going to be an experience based on the quality of their tutors. So, I'll pit my ability to tutor one NEWBIE to use apps in a friendly Linux desktop (perhaps Linspire, Kanotix, or similar) against another tutor's ability to get another newbie up on Windows. In the end, there may be a difference in learning curve, but I suspect it will not be dramatic, and depending on the newbies, the outcome could favor either O.S.

Is that why my mother-in-law has no problem with it and wants it on her computer?

Every time I see her she asks about it.

She didn't use her PC for a YEAR because she was afraid of getting a Windows virus. I kept telling her that she couldn't update if it wasn't on and well she just wanted no part of it.

I did it for her over a holiday in order to get her back online.

Yeah, windows is so much better.

sure it is.

I think you made a good point...."to each his own." Certainly, Linux is not the recommendation I'd make for gamers...it's not there. I'm not a gamer, but I've often thought if I were, I'd probably buy a game console of some sort.

I'm not Grandma, but I qualify as Grandpa, at 60 years of age and after some fourteen years of using DOS and Windows, I switched to Linux about a year ago. I've not found anything I use or need not available in Linux. Thinking back to before I made the switch, I had stopped using MS Office in favor of OpenOffice. I had stopped using IE in favor of Firefox. I'd switched to Thunderbird for email and now use Evolution, which I don't find to be all that different in my usage than Outlook....still syncs with my PDA, etc.

What I do like is not messing with antivirus, spyware programs, defragging the hard drive and the quite common corrupted files I encountered on a regular basis...cause unknown to me. It has not occurred with Linux.

Currently, I use SUSE 10.0 and have probably installed a maximum of four or five programs from outside sources. That's about all I need or use. I can run my DVD's, all my hardware works without reconfiguration...that's about it.

I build my own systems, so start out with Linux, but just bought a notebook computer which came with Windows XP. I didn't even boot it the first time with Windows...just did the first book with the SUSE install and wiped out the Windows partitions.

It's not a matter of one being better than the other to me, as much as it is that Linux works for me, does what I want has been completely trouble-free. So, why would I change that?

If you got corrupted files in 2K/XP you probably should run MemTest86 3.x to check for RAM issues...it's highly likely to be defective.

I was getting the same issues on 3 different computers I have here and I did change RAM modules. Everything would be fine for perhaps 2 months to three months, then the same old problem. I've had a few customers with the same sort of issues. In my mind, I sort of think it has something possibly to do with other installed applications conflicting with Windows. I'm not sure. What I do know, is with the same hardware in three different systems, there has not been a single problem in a bit over a year of running Linux.

I'm running AMD XP3000 processors, 1GB of PC2700 RAM and MSI KT6/V motherboards in all three systems. The only difference is that in my own personal system, I run SATA RAID0. The other two are straight IDE hard drives. Video cards are Nvidia FX5200-256M video RAM.

Linux ... was this RedHat? Yellow Dog? Linspire? Knoppix?

I would rank MacOSX as the best operating system for home users based on inclusion of bundled applications that are useful and desirable to users. I would rate most desktop Linux systems second as Windows XP's bundled offerings are laughable. And I'm not TROLLing - an out of the box PC is lacking many essential applications for the end-level user who wants his or her computer to fly them to the moon.

OSX + iLife (which come bundled together) vs. Windows XP + Plus ... hmm...

With most Linux distros, I find that too many applications are bundled and that the level of redundancy is a little silly. I also think that they lack proper branding as a suite and that Linspire has the best ideas as far as making Linux look cohesive.

What distro of Linux was this survey addressing if any?

*applause*.

I don't blame Linux for this. Look at America's Army, They have a version for Linux, it's just really dated. It's not that they can't make the apps, it's that they won't.

EDIT: There is a new version of AAO for Linux, I just checked. I stopped checking a while ago.

Who can blame them when we don't even have stable video drivers because we need a new version every time there is a minor number kernel revision!

Case in point, ATI 8.19.10 was released in part to support kernel 2.6.14.

How can these companies build stable drivers for a moving target?

Answer: They can't.

Whatever, Windows does a good job.. So they CAN, if you have a REAL company backing a REAL product.

Who runs Linux? The user community, hell they can't even decide on what flavor of Linux to use...

Did you even read my comment?

LOL

Did someone crack your password? I have never seen you type anything that could be confused for "bad mouthing" Linux, let a lone something like this. I don't think that you meant this in a bad way, it just sounds like it.

I have no problem hitting Linux's weak spots. Problem is most people that bash Linux bash it for the wrong reasons (because they haven't ever used it). ;-)

I did mean it in a bad way, drivers have been a problem for as long as anyone can remember and obviously the kernel team is a bunch of amateurs if they can't figure out how to fix it.

ACPI support is just as bad.

Decide? Just like those silly people that drive Hondas, Nissans, or Fords... My toyota is so much better..they can't even decide which car to drive. Silly Humans... Look at your argument.. you are an idiot..

I know what you mean, now tha tI think about it. I can't run Linux on the box. My PNY Nvidia FX 5700 "Personal Cinema" doesn't work with any of the versions of Linux I have tried. It will install and I work for siple 2d, but 3d. It doesn't work much better in Windows. LOL Just poorly written software and drivers, with a hint of sound problems. I would like to buy a new card, but gifts for the kids and other family members come first this time of year.

Yea video drivers and Linux do not mesh well, I use windows for all that is 3d because I get fed up with messing around for an hour to get something to work. Fix that and then you will be onto something. And updating is hell.

"Well"? They don't mesh at all. The video card companies are working very hard trying to make their drivers work with Linux and every other kernel release they have to fix something allowed to be checked into into the kernel source that breaks them again.

"arch" changed recently didn't it? That broke the fgrlx kernel module.

Linux's fault hands down.

They don't mesh well because Linux *SUCKS* as far as drivers are concerned and no one on earth can make an argument otherwise. (unfortunately)

I have been a long time user and proponent of Microsoft technologies. But, I finally reached a point where I was sick of the constant $upgrades$ to the OS and all the related software. So, I tried Linux a few times starting about 5 years ago. I decided it was not yet ready to replace my desktop until THIS YEAR.

I use Ubuntu and Kanotix now. I run these SAME APPS on Linux as I do on Windows: OpenOffice 2.0 for word/excel/etc replacement, GAIM for instant-messaging, Firefox for browsing, Acrobat Reader for PDFs, etc. Evolution has also made a fine Email client for me. And, under Kanotix, installing apps can't be simpler -- just use the "klik" abilities to install many apps directly from Web. It is so simple.

I think people just fear the unknown. Linux is foreign to them, and they ASSUME it is so vastly different. I had my concerns about hardware and peripheral support, but have not had issues aside from a Windows-only cheapie Minolta 1350 printer. My Xerox printer works fine. My networking, including access to Windows domain is fine - better than fine (oddly enough, my Linux boxes authenticate to my Win2003 Server NEARLY INSTANT and much much faster than WinXP clients doing the same; and the network connections to the server remain connected much better than XP). I play DVDs and Music CDs just fine on Linux too (that was a requirement for my daughter, who I made use a Kanotix box for college, and though she was worried about how hard it'd be to learn to use, she quickly mastered everything needed to run her "required" applications).

And, Linux is so EASY TO TRY using LIVE CD technology. Just check out distrowatch.com for links to various Linux distributions and download a Live (bootable) CD and try it out before installing. That is what finally got me to switch. I tried Kanotix live and could not believe how EASY it was to get everything running.

And, when I read how people think Linux would be better with a Mac-type interface, perhaps, but first TRY what is available for linux now... KDE is like Windows, Gnome is sorta Mac-like. Both are relatively simple to pick up. Problem is, for "newbies" in general, there is a learning curve with ANY O.S. I have seen many a person struggle with Windows, Mac OS-X, and Linux interfaces. The interface is not the complete problem, since ANY interface requires one to invest a bit of time familiarizing themselves with it. I personally found KDE to be nearly the same thing as WinXP.

Hi mikeeberhart - great post. I wanted to add a silly comment on the topic of a mac-type interface. One of the reasons that I really enjoy Windows XP is that I have installed StyleXP and have a Panther theme and have my start bar moved to the top of the screen ... my icons, menus, scrollbars, etc are all very Mac-Like. I haven't done my research, but if I can have a Linux-based desktop environment that looks just like my windows environment (which looks like OSX), I would definately consider switching.

I'm not an end-level user by any means, but I cannot express how attached I've become to my setup.

Thanks. Glad you liked my post.

I don't do much with themes, but I know what you are talking about. I know there are tons of themes out there for KDE (and Gnome too). I'd just check kde.org (KDE-Look.org perhaps) for themes that may be a fit.

I was VERY attached to my Windows XP desktop, which is why I can not emphasize enough how great I think the "LiveCD" versions of Linux are so you can try BEFORE you install to hard-drive.

Another nice way to try an "install" is to use VMWare Workstation. They had a free v5.5 Beta out recently you could use to setup and test BEFORE switching your main O.S. I think they offer 30-day trialware too (since I see they just released final of 5.5).
And, a bit off-point is how cool VMWare's FREE "PLAYER" is ... if someone created a Virtual Machine with a flavor of Linux installed that you wanted to try, you just run the VM they create using the Player. How cool. :)

Haha "If you dont take your Linux you cant go to school"

Well duh... This is the reason Linux isn't up there with Windows and Macintosh as a competitor. The OS is rarly supported by manufacturers.

I think gaming support is a definite issue, for Linux use at home. I know that most likely my Dell DJ would not work correctly with Linux.

Games won't come until drivers for those games come.

The core problem is in the driver model.

The reason for that is simple. Manufacturers aren't going to condone a product that isn't ready for general use.

No support. no apps. Not enough native drivers, therefore manufacturers aren't going to waste their time.

You also don't realize when a manufacturer pre-installs an OS, its called an OEM version. That means the manufacturer is the FIRST to support it, not Microsoft. Convince the manufacturers that Linux will be there 10 years from now, or least show them where there is support for a product.

You don't own a business or have a business sense, otherwise you wouldn't bring this up.

"No support. no apps."

Why do you always post this when you can't back it up?