I wonder...

So many here seem to think that Apple is the one who cannot face reality.

But here is another view...

Almost in the same breath, many are want to tell us that Apple is no longer a "computer" company; they tell us that Apple has morphed into an electronic accessory company - as evidenced by the self-proclaimed announcement of this change by Apple of both their name and their focus.

So, if what Apple has told us, and what others keep repeating, is true, then who are the ones who can't face the truth?

If Apple's focus has indeed s***ed away from the computer as a core technology and moved toward accessories such as the iPhone or the iPod, then a delay is not a big deal. After all, the OSX upgrade is simply that - it is not a major new release on the scale of Vista. Apple already has their 'equivalent' of Vista. Leopard will simply complete the transition of the OS to a FULL 64 bit environment, something already implemented in large form in OSX, and something Vista hasn't even begun.

So what it sounds like is that many want to tell us that Apple is now first and foremost an electronics accessory company. And Apple is telling us that.

And if that is true, and if we listen to what Apple and we keep telling ourselves, the fundamental problem of expectations is not with Apple.

{BTW, I love the comment that "Let us all remember that music phones in general have so far been flops." Heck, I don't have one! But let us remember that since 2001 in a saturated cell phone market, convergence has driven almost ALL cell phone sales based upon their converged features! Such is the nature of a saturated market. They are not adding to the net customer base, they are selling NEW PHONES and seeing customer churn. So the comment ignores market reality.}

Unfortunately, both Apple and the media have developed a 'cult of personality' around Jobs. And that simply gets in the way. Screw Jobs.

The fundamental problem is with the many folks here who schizophrenically who want it "both" ways.

On the one hand they want to tell us that Apple is now an accessory company - all while they are still try to hold onto an outdated conceptual identity and to try to continue to hold them accountable to the old model of being a computer company.

You can't have it both ways. Pick one.

Instead, I might posit that it is the schizoid market public who can't face the truth. And that makes the real problem OUR hypocrisy!

nah, easier than that, lol
Apple does not want to outright admit to what it is doing and from a business end it is smart, shareholders, values and contracts...etc.
So it sounds odd when attend the various symposiums. You are left sort of wondering what they are doing...a part of you knows what they are doing...but you scratch your head wondering why they don't actually say it.

"FULL 64 bit environment, something already implemented in large form in OSX, and something Vista hasn't even begun"

WinXP 64-bit edition has been around for 2 years or so.

You miss the point.

OSX will be unified 32/64-bit environment such as what AIX has been for 10 years now, without having separate 'incompatible' versions like MS.

And just like AIX and other systems, the 32bit and 64-bit distinctions will cease to have meaning. It will run 64-bit appls and 32-bit appls without your having to make a distinction.

I could have *sworn* Vista and XPO 64-bit could run 32-bit apps.

Huh...

but who cares about the phone anyways??? I DONT NEED A PHONE THAT HAS MANY FUNCTIONALITIES, I JUST NEED TO TALK FOR GOD SAKE AND IF YOU WANT MUSIC AND VIDEOS THEN BUY AN iPod man, now at least all the cellphones comes with rebate and on the other hand the iPhone wont have a rebate and i dont wanna throw $500 for a phone that sucks, i would rather buy a new gaming pc and install Windows XP or VISTA to play MANY GAMES THAT MAC DOESNT HAVE!! for me that's the whole point of having windows on my computer because MAC SUCKS AT GAMES

...and you suck at constructing a coherent response.

Judging from your rant, I would think a Gameboy would be more suitable for you.

YEAH!Why on EARTH WOULD anyone WANT to be able TO TALK and WATCH VIDEOS on the saME DEViCE??? They should be happy SPENDING MORE ON TWO devices than spending MUCH LESS ON a device that does the JOB OF BOTH of them???!?!!!1oneoneone

There, thought he might be able to understand that better.

Gotta speak their language to get through to them, right?

According to Microsoft you would be correct,

Windows XP Pro x64 is a natural progression from existing 32-bit Windows XP Pro, and the vast majority of programs written for Windows XP Pro will run in Windows XP Pro x64 without any change or modification. The mechanism that Windows XP Pro x64 uses to run 32-bit applications is called Windows on Windows 64-bit, better known as WOW64.
WOW64 provides each 32-bit application with its own protected environment that fully supports 32-bit applications. The application runs at full speed because of the underlying hardware compatibility.

I can only assume vista is the same way

So Redmond is snickering because Apple is a few months late with their highly anticipated new version when Microsoft themselves were years late with huge bloated mess that no one wants.

I wish I had some of what they're smoking in the Rainy State.

Hmmm.. Lets check the stats shall we? Marketshare-wise im still Microsoft is still light-years ahead of where Apples market share is. I think Microsoft is laughing all the way to the bank on that comment. Put down your durry, de-stone, and take a look at that very pretty, but delapidated machine you're using and come over to the light side my friend. PC is the way forward. Always has been, always will be.

Market share indicates where you are NOW. But instead, try look at the rate of change of Apple's market share, and indeed rate of the rate of change of market share (2nd derivative).

My sense is that Microsoft will be losing marketshare both to Apple and to Linux.

"Put down your durry, de-stone, and take a look at that very pretty, but delapidated machine you're using and come over to the light side my friend. PC is the way forward."

Cute comment fanboy.

But NO ONE with more than 10 functioning brain cells and familiar with both platforms would make such an asinine comment BUT a fanboy. But I am being redundant.

What, did Windows finally get interface transparency eye candy? Whoopee! You must be in heaven.

Ignorance is bliss.

hey hommie!!!, i use Mac OS X on my PC and itz sweet you know, i also have vista and xp running on it and i think that they all have their pros and conts and you should know that better than these "fan" boys

from a business standpoint, the amount of software available for osx vs xp/vista leaves much to be desired. it is hard to run macs when your financial software runs on dos and only dos, along with a million other programs that dont function well on other platforms.

LOL!

Yes, the fundamental advantage of the Apple machine is the ability to run ALL of the major OSes (Windows, OSX, Linux, BSD, etc.) concurrently. OLD news. But still valid. Unfortunately our DOS friend hasn't gotten the news...but then he Is running DOS!!!

And if you are STILL dependent upon DOS software, I would question just what you are doing!? Must be cutting edge!

Even Windows no longer includes DOS!

But I guess that I could claim that my library of CPM software renders anything other than, well, CPM, inadequate!

I think its becoming quite clear in the recent years that Apple is a much more of a monopoly company than Microsoft is. But its gonna take some time before the general public sees this.

I think it's quite clear that your post was the weakest and most obvious troll attempt ever, unless you are actually dumb enough to think Apple has a monopoly in anything. You fail.

no, come on, DS is right....Apple is a monopoly, it just has no solid power or lead as MS. Who is more a monopoly I ask you...a company that makes an OS or a company that makes an OS for their OWN hardware? Come on, I hope even an apple supporter could admit to us what is what. Sure no power...but still a monopoly.

The real questions here is who cares and why does Beta News even bother to report this? How many programs listed on here even run on a Apple OS anyway? Just get Bootcamp and XP or Vista, it’s the only OS a Mac will ever NEED.

So I want to install XP on a Mac so I can claim that my Mac is now on the BotNet?

SWEET! Where do I sign up?

I don't even own or use a Mac on a daily basis, yet I have spent more time (on the order of 80% more) repairing/maintaining the Windows machines at work then I have the Macs (or Linux) boxes, and we are split 50/50 on Windows and *nix.

And let the 'ego wars' roll on, shall we?!

A few people here seem to have missed the point of this article. The article does not say it is NOT okay for Apple to delay Leopard.

The main contention is Apple's seeming hypocrisy in this matter. They think they are too cool to admit that they can screw up.

Let's not forget the iPod virus incident. Instead of admitting fair and square about the mishap, they chose to take a dig at MS.

Now if you think about last month's rumor about the delay, they probably considered using Vista compatibility as a possible reason although in the end they chose the iPhone reason instead.

isn't hypocrisy and denial a part of the Apple/Mac and mac user charm? :)

Of course it's not charming, just assinine...but that's what they want to call it.

For example, MS/Windows...just a company that makes software and an OS. People buy and put on their computers or their computers to sell.

Apple/Mac communistic true monopoly that makes and sells their own hardware...and noone else (sure they allowed some to make "clones") They may be changing now of course, afterall, using PC hardware now. :)

But I wonder if it's an oxymoron? Apple/Mac/MacUser (most) are hyporcrites and living in denial. hehe

Where is the hypocrisy exactly?

I don't remember where Microsoft were saying "Sorry, Vista won't ship on time because we've had all our engineers off on this other amazing product"

It was "Vista won't ship until we carve out more of its brain"

This whole discussion is chalk and cheese.

There have been so many lies to the media (and therefore to the people) on issues so much more important than a delayed OS that this article is just meaningless.

---->Apple DID lie to the media about....

...9/11

The reason for delaying Desktop OS X in order to get the iPhone out is simple.

Contracts.

When you deal with a provider like Cingular, you sign on to ship by a certain date. Miss the date, pay stiff penalties for every week you miss by.

Delaying desktop Leopard is a lot cheaper. It might lose a few sales, it will probably delay a whole bunch of sales -- so the quarter numbers take a hit, but it should still boost FY07.

For those suggesting the iPhone's OS will be incomplete because it's Leopard-based -- chances are the stuff that won't be polished by June is the desktop components -- the stuff that Leopard won't need.

Remember, the iPhone is a closed system, so QA is a LOT easier than on the many and varied Mac systems -- and no, it's not "just 6 models" -- there's far more Intel systems been launched than that and a hell of a lot of PPC-based G4 systems that it will also support).

Beyond that, the iPhone might be unproven, but look at the hype it's generated. It's been front-paged on every mainstream news site you can think of. Delaying it would hurt far more than that of the relatively small Mac userbase.

Of course, that's assuming that Apple told the truth about the delay... but that's a whole other can of worms.

Good point, I agree.

I don't agree with that view. I work in a large internet company and I know how difficult it is to focus on a launch and priorities. I think it was a good move by Apple to focus on the iPhone.

IF and WHEN Leopard gets delayed approaching 5 years then you can start talking hypocrisies. Also Apple is going to deliver Leopard with more than it has already promised, not strip out the majority of enhancements that happened to Vista.

You can't really say that. Apple has been very secretive about Leopard's features, which is probably a smart move although not developer friendly.

BETANEWS IS TEH AWESOM!

BETANEWS SUCKS HARD!

Apple did bash M$ when Vista was delayed. But when you think about it, the Vista delays were understandable, since Vista had to be compatible with thousands of different hardware and hundreds of thousands of different software. OSX doesn't really have that problem. OSX only needs to be compatible with the 5 or 6 Mac models and a hand full of software.

At least M$ had the balls to say they couldn't finish by the target date. If M$ said they had to pull people from Vista to finish the Zune on time Apple would have had one hell of a bashfest.

plus remember all the setbacks caused to vista by third party companies ??
Symantec with the security issues, the EU with their fines .....
Who's attacking Leopard ??
nobody, yet they still delay it ...

Good points. And don't forget, Microsoft forced Vista to miss the holiday season sales, which rippled and cost the hardware industry, too, not that anyone had written any drivers by then, the jerks.

Setbacks to Vista was in Microsoft's hands to begin with. Microsoft is a monopoly through and through. Their legal department knows darn well that when they seal up a proprietary protocol to stop interoperability and integration from third party products, they are asking to get fined from Governments. On the other hand, being fined from the EU didn't stop Microsoft at all from developing Vista at the source code level. What the EU wanted was documentation and pricing for the protocols. Nothing to do with development.

Symantec also did not delay Vista. It is Microsoft's own fault for trying to monopolize the software market even more by locking out third party vendors, and in this case with anti-virus software. Ever wonder why Microsoft's OneCare worked (before the api change) and Symantec did not?

Now, what would you say if Microsoft said Vista was delayed because of the Xbox360? Nothing, because Microsoft (for example) had 20 people working for nine months just to develop the shutdown menu....that still had bugs in it.

I don't completely agree with Apple's business practices concerning the Mac and OSX, but you cannot compare the delays in OSX with Vista that is "actively" trying to lock out third party vendors. Sure OSX might be delayed because of a bug and not because of the iPhone, but at least it isn't delayed because they had to rewrite code to allow other software to be installed.

The article was presented in a very unprofessional manner that was designed to hype up a number of responses - not to elicit intelligent discussion.

Don't try to claim otherwise and sound all high and mighty.

You don't sit on some ivory tower - you are simply muck raking, and that is pretty pathetic.

Don't try to pretened to be anything other than what you were in this instance. It makes you look even worse by being a hypocrite.

If you had wanted a serious discussion, you should have written the article in a more professional, respectful manner.

By taking cheap shots at Apple and Jobs, you set the tone for the whole discussion.

yes. exactly.

You can criticize Betanews for making an article like this, but you stay silent when they have articles they bash Vista's security as well as the vista release date?

Thats cute, you try to sound intelligent, but all you are, is a hypocrite.

Hey, I can't keep track of every Vista bashing article out there. :)

Honestly, I don't come to BetaNews for the articles, I come for the files, so it's not something I come here looking for.

I just happened to see it on the front page after I got an update notice about a new release and thought I'd comment.

Funny how Ed suddenly wants to "elevate" the discussion, while writing zingers like "What's wrong with admitting the truth, Steve?" - implying that Jobs is lying.

The only point of this article is to take potshots at Apple. Why not admit the truth, Ed? Apple and Steve Jobs just pisses you off, and you feel like gloating.

Because the reality is, a 4 month delay is only 120 days. And it's not as if Apple is dropping any features at the same time.

Ed, you just need to get off your self-righteous high horse. Stop invoking people to act all rational and logical while you go off with your thinly veiled gloating. Just admit you detest Apple and stop trying to pass that off as news.

It's also funny how other companies can spin up the wazoo (Vista "selling" 20 million copies in the first month? Gee, I wonder how many copies of XP would have also "sold" if Vista weren't around....) yet somehow when Apple tries to put the best face on things, it's tantamount to Stalinist propoganda. That's called hypocritical, Ed.

I've been reading these comments since we've posted this article last night, and for the most part, people got the point. However, there seems to be a group of people commenting here who seem to want to devolve the discussion (which this was meant to promote) into a flame war.

I can hear some of you already saying "Well Ed, you started this with a title designed for flame bait." My response to that is this: If anyone got that upset over the title, it shows a) he/she didn’t read the article at all, or b) he/she got so upset that any reasoned argument wouldn't even had an effect.

This commentary was a perspective, and is my opinion only. It may have rubbed some of you the wrong way, but it is not reasoning for attacks on either myself, other users, or the site. We allow you to have a public vehicle to voice your opinion here, but from the looks of it, we're not afforded the same liberty. That's a shame.

Some have called us "BetaSpin" and "BetaOpinion," yet all I'm seeing is biased commentary from a lot of users, not reasoned opinion. The funny thing is, a lot of you call me biased against Apple, but I'm pretty sure a lot of you don't realize I'm typing this from a MacBook Pro, or written so many positive articles about Apple products that I've lost count. :) If anything, BetaNews is guilty of not being more balanced on Apple.

I'd like to see some discussion on why I, as a Mac user, shouldn't be upset that I've been relegated to second-class while Apple chases a yet unproven market? Or why some here think that opinion needs to be the majority opinion and all others should be suppressed, and everything else is bias? How about the "life presents tradeoffs comment" If Microsoft said this, oh my would there be a tidal wave of commentary. You'd all probably crash the site. Apple's supposed to get a pass?

Kudos to those who have resisted taking pot shots at the site, and have used the comment area to stir discussion on Apple, the iPhone, and the implications. To those who have either attacked the site, each other or myself, this is surely disappointing. Let's be mature here, and discuss the POINTS of the article, and not criticize one another.

I don't see how someone can claim you are anti-apple, if anything is true, you swing towards apple's favor in many of your stories. I was shocked when I saw the title of this article.

I'd like to see some discussion on why I, as a Mac user, shouldn't be upset that I've been relegated to second-class while Apple chases a yet unproven market?

I believe that they intended more than just a change in name when they became Apple, Inc. instead of Apple Computers, Inc. I believe it signified a s*** on focus on their part, and ultimately the demise of the Mac Computer.

Here's how I see it (and this is only my opinion, totally not based on anything concrete):

The switched to Intel for 2 reasons, the obvious being an immediate boost in price/performance, the not so obvious (and where reality slips away) would be the moving of the Apple community towards WINtel systems to help soften the blow/backlash when they simply drop the platform entirely. I believe BootCamp is another indicator of this progression.

Apple, I believe, has realized over the years that while they can compete with the WINtel market, they cannot hope to ever come out on top (in terms of pure market-share). I think they realized the amount of money and resources they were pouring into it could be better utilized in other, similar markets.

I believe this to be their intent and would not be the least bit surprised to see them drop the Mac's and go 100% into the other market's they've set their sights on.

So... yes, you've been relegated to second-class because, business-wise, their main focus needs to be elsewhere, where there is much more room to grow, profit, and succeed.

(checks flame-retardant suit for holes)

wow, im actually impressed to read such a concrete and accurate view of how things on apple are going...
and i couldnt agree more ....
thats the reazon why apple has focused lately on audio devices and now more broad electronics such as a phone ....
and it completely explains why "bootcamp" has also been in continuous development ...

Spot on tool, spot on

lol, i always thought ED was a mac fanboy ....
reading this article was a wake up pimp slap in the face ....

Ed,
OK since you want to analyze the previous comments as hostile, let point out a few of your own words, and ask you to reserve your angst for a bit.

"This commentary was a perspective, and is my opinion only."
Correct. Your opinion. I see no mention of any facts. Considering this is an opinionated post/article, you should have been prepared to recieve other opinions that may or may not be in line with what you want to tell this community.

"We allow you to have a public vehicle to voice your opinion here, but from the looks of it, we're not afforded the same liberty. That's a shame."
Incorrect. This comment itself is an attack on this supposedly public vehicle you wish to describe for everyone else here to discuss your opinionated article.
There maybe comments that are down right hostile, and that is their opinion. I am sure they appreciate their freedom to voice their opinions as much as you enjoy yours. Just because they are hostile, does not mean they have stopped you in any fashion to express your opinion. That only occurs if you stop your own discussion.

"I'm seeing is biased commentary from a lot of users, not reasoned opinion."
Sir, Have you looked up the definition of opinion lately? Here is one I've just located using google search "Define Opinion" -- a personal belief or judgment that is not founded on proof or certainty; "my opinion differs from yours"
No where does it state opinions need to reasoned out. However, I strongly believe most people have an opinion for a reason, not just to have one. The fact that you may not understand that reasoning, doesn't mean it lacks it.

"I'd like to see some discussion on why I, as a Mac user, shouldn't be upset that I've been relegated to second-class while Apple chases a yet unproven market?"
I'll give you a reason. The OS market Apple has a solid grasp on. The phone market it does not. Each and every company must increase its income sources to provide more capital to grow. That growth could be redistributed within the company to grow its capabilities to provide new services.
Having one product defered for now that already has a good user community and expected purchases does not give Apple more incentive to dedicate its time to develop it faster to market than a new product that will provide a new source of income by obtaining a new crowd of buyers.
Quite simply in my humble perspecitive, its a cash driven incentive. All that I've ever known of Steve Jobs, he could care less about you or I. He cares about money, and it does a damn good job making it. Not that I ever want to be him, either.

"Let's be mature here, and discuss the POINTS of the article, and not criticize one another."
Understandable. So when will you stop?

VR,
Robin Watt

Thank you, PC_Tool, for a well-reasoned and informative response. I think you have some very valid opinions, here: If Apple isn't intentionally planning to render Mac OS X obsolete, then it certainly still appears the company is leaving open for itself some back doors for an exit strategy. While it's hard for me to believe Apple would ever "quit" the Macintosh, part of me wonders whether the company is leaving open the possibility of relegating Mac OS to the realm of small, portable devices - a kind of "Mac-Pod."

True, I too have no concrete proof that any of this is happening, but this is the opinion section of the article after all, and that's my observation.

Now, permit me to cite the entire Apple comment from yesterday in its entirety:

iPhone has already passed several of its required certification tests and is on schedule to ship in late June as planned. We can't wait until customers get their hands (and fingers) on it and experience what a revolutionary and magical product it is. However, iPhone contains the most sophisticated software ever shipped on a mobile device, and finishing it on time has not come without a price -- we had to borrow some key software engineering and QA resources from our Mac OS(R) X team, and as a result we will not be able to release Leopard at our Worldwide Developers Conference in early June as planned. While Leopard's features will be complete by then, we cannot deliver the quality release that we and our customers expect from us. We now plan to show our developers a near final version of Leopard at the conference, give them a beta copy to take home so they can do their final testing, and ship Leopard in October. We think it will be well worth the wait. Life often presents tradeoffs, and in this case we're sure we've made the right ones.

The delay is not the problem here, in my view, but the attitude. By taunting Vista's delays throughout 2006, Apple set themselves up to take a beating with a delay of its own. Its people should not have adopted such a self-righteous attitude knowing full well that a resource s*** was not only likely, but as history may yet reveal, may have already happened at that time.

But the second part of the one-two punch here, in my view, has to do with what a reasonable person can infer from this statement. This is the first time to my memory that Apple has ever issued a statement that implied that Macintosh was somehow a lower-order project in the company playbook. The decision to s*** the QA team temporarily from Leopard to iPhone may actually be a sensible one. But to tell the public that this was done because the iPhone is "revolutionary and magical" and then close with "Life often presents tradeoffs," is to directly state (not even indirectly imply) that Leopard is less magical, not revolutionary, and second-class.

This may not even be what Apple truly believes - I certainly hope not. But in any event, this was a terribly botched press release that is uncharacteristic of anything else I've ever read from Apple, which generally gets these things spot on.

-SF "Wishing Ed's Piece Could Be Read Aloud by Jack Nicholson" 3

Tool,

This is a very mature post. I'm impressed that you have presented a moddest opinion without attacking apple; something I have rarely seen from some of your other posts over the year(s). Not trying to call you out or embarrass you, just giving kudos for the good post!

yeah, tool is usually an *ssHole about everything :) .....

Lovely.

-SF "Wishing Ed's Piece Could Be Read Aloud by Jack Nicholson" 3

roflmao...

I'm going to have top re-read that now, with my best Jack impersonation.

lol ......

hurling around "hypocrisy," "hypocrite" and bold assertions like "What's wrong with admitting the truth, Steve?" and "Apple can't face the truth" certainly are sarcasm-free and objective.

lets top it off by calling your critics immature. yeah that's real mature Ed. good job.

whatever point you were trying to make didn't come across so clearly though so maybe, just maybe, there was a problem with the way you wrote it.

and i couldnt agree more ....

Of course you could.

I expect the offerings of burnt chicken on my doorstep by 8am. Preferably with some russet potatoes.

....Mmmmm. Tasty.

Thank you.

Ed, I give you credit in that you're willing — and able — to defend your writings and your argument here. It's a simple point, clearly stated, accurately labeled (as perspective), and simply titled. Why so many respondents hit the "emotion" button rather than rationally responding is telling.

As I stated earlier, at least Ed is critically honest in his views. And BetaNews sets an example by articles like this. There are some topics — like Apple, like browsers, and such that ignite a flame in many people's brains.

Paradise, your reasoning eludes me, my friend. Objective? Its a PERSPECTIVE article. And yes, there have been some immature posts on here.

I wonder what would happen to half of the commenters on here if we stripped you of your anonymity. We are one of the few sites on the internet today that lets a user basically have a user name and that's it. I think, frankly, that many would be a little more reasoned if people could find out more about that poster.

What I've realized here is my point wasn't clearly understood by those who honestly have no objective view to begin with when it comes to Apple. For them, they can do no wrong.

This is the same for those who are the same way about Microsoft, Sun, Linux, or whatever company or idea you can think of.

I'm sorry you disagree with it. But devolving the discussion into personal attacks on this site, myself, or other users is unacceptable to me, period.

Apple DID lie to the media about there being no delay. This was only two weeks ago. Problems this serious to delay an OS do not crop up in 14 days. They knew then they wouldn't have Leopard out in time.

I invite you to visit the Mac boards, where they are talking about how buggy Leopard is. This wasn't about iPhone, Paradise. Anybody who believes that is not thinking straight. This was due to Leopard itself. The iPhone was merely a scapegoat.

Das,

He's not always an *$$hole... sometimes he's prick and that's always refreshing... ;-)

(Sorry Tool, so could not resist that one... lol)

~dnc

Where's my Chicken?

Not exactly 5.5 years late but whos counting!
heheheheehhee

don't get me wrong i totally like windows more than os x but what the hell is the point of this?

why do we care so much about what another person uses that we take every misstep as a reason to (in a serious manner) attack the other side?

this is childish and immature Ed and you've really lowered the bar here. I would think betanews prides itself on its articles being more than fanatical blog entries but obviously that's not the case anymore.

"Let us all remember that music phones in general have so far been flops."

Yeah, Apple really screwed it up on the iPod--everyone knew digital music players would never take off, either. :)

Plus, there's a huge difference between delaying something by a few months versus by a few YEARS. Especially since the iPhone includes a special version of OS X, I really don't think Apple's story is all that unbelievable.

Nice to see this is now "BETASPIN" where facts are secondary to biased opinions.

You are making your site look very unprofessional by writing complete nonsense opinion rants...

Sorry BetaNOOBS or BetaSPIN, AnandTech owns you and will always own you because they actually are professional and not a bunch of biased kids.

Grow up.

I have to agree. Articles like this just don't do the site any favors.

My thoughts exactly. This site is going down the drain FAST.

PERSPECTIVE

Ya know...in case you missed the very first word after the headline and lead.

You do know what that word means, do you not?

Umm - I just looked at Anandtech and I see review of hardware. That would make it different than BetaNews since this site doesn't do a lot of hardware reviewing.

Do I care if it is a nonsensical rant by a betanews writer throwing a temper tantrum only calling it a "perspective" so slow people would be tricked into thinking that it is something that its not? You do know what deception means, do you not?

There are many others, AnandTech is just one example. Please think.

LOL.

Here comes PC tool again to fanboy it up again. OMG just give the obnoxiousness a rest. Let your frustrations go bro.

How would labeling an item as a perspective peice make anyone believe it is anything *but*?

Find the troll knob, turn it down a bit.

Thanks.

God forbid anyone try to bring a level of maturity in a forum full of people like *you*.

Ouch, the stupid, it burns! as tool goes on another predictable, imus-like rampage.

Now it's "imus-like".

You get more and more like the Rat every day. A little more stupid, a little more childish, and you'll have it nailed.

Ahhh I see, this site has now been renamed BetaOpinion. This explains the tripe above.

The reason why though is Steve knocked Vista for being late and said unlike vista leopard will arrive on time...

It doesn't matter Vista took years to finish and its still quite not finished the fact is Steve made a joke saying there would be NO delay plus isnt' iphone supposed to use leopard as the OS?

So, its ok if Steve changed his mind and delayed the OS but Microsoft does it its cause to put them under a microscope.

Again, yes Vista was delayed the point being is Steve said there would be NO delay

Blah blah blah. Personally, I think Apple releases a "new" version of their OS way too often. Do they make you pay for each v0.1 upgrade? Honest question.

What's the big deal with the gap between XP and Vista? I'd prefer they held off Vista to keep working on that file system they pulled and kept it in beta for more and more security fixes before release. But then, that's just not financially good for them.

When Avie was with Apple he said that 10.4 would be the last OS they would release on such an agressive timeframe. OSX has matured and while Apple shouldn't sit on their laurels they will be releasing their OS upgrades not so often. That's fine with me I would rather save a buck and have a stable OS then something rush so often.
Yes but the difference between 10.1 and 10.2, etc. are major upgrades like going from Win95, Win98, XP, XP Service Pack V, er I mean VISTA.
Apple seems to like holding onto the X (10) moniker instead of moving onto 11, 12, etc. like with pre-OSX systems (6, 7, 8, 9).

Opinions shouldn't be trolls.

This lowers betanews overall site quality.

Used to *love* you guys, but this is fairly depressing that you've sunk this low.

Request: please provide links to supplementary content with quotes in articles. Especially when editorializing. Is this all Ed, or are others in the industry expressing legitimate concerns? Is Microsoft really gloating?

Lame.

I don't understand why apple wouldn't admit that their new OS is going to be a little late, after all better late than never.

As far as all of the ranting about which OS is better, I see no point in it... I use both a MAC and a Windows based PC everyday. The MAC has its strong points such as ease of use, where the Windows based PC has its familiarity. I'm not going to say that one is better than the other because they both have their strong points and their weak ones.

I've had the chance to work on every version of windows including Server 2003. The only bad thing i see throughout ever version of windows is the fact that it "crashes", some more often than others. As far as Mac goes, well... the only thing i can think of with the ones i work on is the fact that every time someone goes to open up Google Earth the whole system locks up. Now I've only had the chance of working on the "Tiger" Mac's but i can say i like the simplicity involved.

So i guess i'm trying to say given the chance, i would own both a Windows based PC and a Mac. I find one no better than the other, but both are great in their own way.

"they both have their strong points and their weak ones."

Be careful saying that. The fanboys will have you tarred and feathered in no time around here!

And whatever you do, don't wake up the Linux folks. They still think they are taking over the desktop. Its best to just let them continue hallucinating.

foxfyre, YOU are warning us all of fanboys???

Yup, I don't care what platform suits your needs. Use it.

I ROFL'd... Seriously!

Why do I not have Any trouble imagining this wacko rolling and writhing on his back like a toy dog trying to scratch his back?

Seriously.

Huh?

"So i guess i'm trying to say given the chance, i would own both a Windows based PC and a Mac. I find one no better than the other, but both are great in their own way."

Which is why all you'll ever need is a Intel Mac running either Boot Camp or Parallels with the WinOS of your choice. You can now kill 2 birds with one stone. I've used both side by side professionally since 1986 and it's never been better to own a Mac. Besides before OSX my Macs use to crash often, though I was pushing them to their limits with huge graphic files in Photoshop.

Google Earth may be crashing because you are running an ap that requires a 256 Mg of VRAM on the Video Card. Otherwise, it might not crash, but it sure will seem that it did, since it will take an iternity to do anything....

I'm on a Dual 1Gig G4 and could not use it. Upgraded to a 256 InVidia and it rocks. Never crashes.

OK, I am not sure why Apple is afraid to simply say that they are running several months behind where they thought they would be.

And "snickers from Redmond"?!?! Right!
Its always insightful to see an author attempt to elevate HIS own editorial diatribe above simply reporting the news. But it is always interesting to see where their baggage lies.

I get a kick out of MS folks saying Anything lest they simply bring the spotlight back on themselves. Let's see: Several months late versus several YEARS late - and then still lacking the fundamental features promised 12 years ago that are now officially dead (read "Cairo").

But "YEARS" versus "months", gee, its just a few letters different. The meaning must be pretty close then... Yeah, right... Its funny the Windows camp would even notice.

But, it is rather interesting that Apple feels the need to spin this other than just saying its delayed.

And if its for the iPhone!? Well, evidently the 14 year old market is alive and well. But then I guess it was the XBox or Zune that delayed MS. ;-)

I don't care if the reason is that they all went to the beach or that they were all busy trying to find functional drivers for their home Vista machines, or that they have been preoccupied trying to find a Linux app worth running that their wife could also figure out on their 15 year old 386SX PC-AT.

And what is even more fascinating is to listen to the pent up ire of so many fanboys from so many camps all trying to make a story out of something that None of them possess the moral high ground to do.

Oh, and as far as the comment below that "Mac hardware and software win hands down". It doesn't matter if their platform does or doesn't.

What IS significant is that you don't hear a groundswell of Mac users complaining about the fundamental shortcomings of their machines or their environment. Something the other camps CAN'T claim.

And THAT may be the one real truth that far too many can't face.

"What IS significant is that you don't hear Mac users complaining about the fundamental shortcomings of their machines or their environment. Something the other camps CAN'T claim."
ummmm...
www.macfixitforums.com .... you lose.

and yes redmond did take a long time, because they are the biggest company with more users then apple and yet they didnt make excuses like apple is.

So Vista was delayed years "because they are the biggest company with MORE USERS."
That is perhaps the most asinine comment I have read on this forum. And that takes some doing. Take a bow!

And MS didn't make excuses? Hell, they ran out of them!

And I didn't say that some Mac users do not have problems, you ditz! Their overall customer sat ratings bury the other platforms! Deal with it!

Neat site. Lots of technical questions and answers there. Great resource.

I'd say Mac Users win by having such a great resource. I don't see that forum as being a b**** forum about Macs.

MS cut planned features (some which will make it into "Server") to rush the launch of Vista so it would still be years behind schedule. Given the state of the hardware market and requirements for premium versions of Vista the delay wasn't such a bad thing after all.

"Apple feels the need to spin this other than just saying its delayed."

It is hard to put a good PR spin on failures. Every company does this, making this article a boring read.

"And if its for the iPhone!?"

Really something that could be easily added with a single download and install. Not even worth calling a "patch" when it is added.

"find a Linux app worth running that their wife could also figure out"

Just because your Mom or Sister is computer illiterate does not mean every woman is. Your sexist arguments are pointless and prove your lack of ability to make a solid argument.

"It doesn't matter if their platform does or doesn't."

Ahh, finally something we agree on. Windows fans more often hate windows more than they hate the Mac. They just don't want to spend the time learning the ins and outs of the choice they have before them. Same reason people will still drive a Ford and the learning curve to drive a Toyota isn't as steep as the switch from Windows.

An interesting post I saw recently from Microsoft's own development team was that Vista was delayed because of internal tension within the company.

It seems that there were a number of features that were to be put in the OS, but for whatever reason, they decided after having spent a long time going down that road to get rid of them, or that they had found better ways of doing things.

So they pretty much moth balled all they had done and started over again.

I think it's funny that just a few weeks ago, Steve Jobs was crowing about how Mac OSX would ship on time and now they're doing the soft shoe and coming up with lame excuses as to why it's not ready.

What I want to know is why would you pull a developer of an OS off of that product to work on something like a phone?

I'd be willing to bet that MS doesn't grab their OS developers or even dev tool developers and throw them onto their CE device OS team. That just doesn't make sense. The ramp up time to get these people up to speed would cause a bigger delay than just extending your deadline.

And who cares if it's late. I have always commented that I'd rather them be late and they get rid of all of the glaring bugs before shipping, rather than shipping something that doesn't work.

Yes, I know there will be bugs, it's the nature of the beast, but it's the show stoppers that will make or break a product, and those are usually hammered out before shipping.

I don't even want to think about how much testing goes on for an OS to make sure that the last two lines of code that "Fred" entered didn't cause the IP stack to fritz away whenever you right click the Start button. :)

"Just because your Mom or Sister is computer illiterate does not mean every woman is. Your sexist arguments are pointless and prove your lack of ability to make a solid argument."

You know, you just proved how sexist YOU are. You are like Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson decrying Don Imus using the oh so popular street vernacular when you yourself are not so busy being sexist! You might want to look at your own references and assumptions!

First, YOU are the one extending any image to all women! And I NEVER said nor implied that all WOMEN are "computer illiterate". In fact, I never implied that ANY women are "computer illiterate". Only you did.

My mom is quite computer literate with Windows, but she is not intimate with the internals of a Linux box!
And as a straight male I am not going to apologize for referring to the common partner of a straight male. Sorry if I offended your gay sensibilities! My first inclination is just not to imagine a scenario inside a wimpy bar.

And dare I try to make reference to some imaginary person likely to not be a computer engineer? Gee, perhaps I should have referred to "a nameless faceless generic human being not intimate with the internal structures of a computer operating structure" and then listened to you rail about my reference to a depersonalized automatron!

At least I was not generalizing about ALL women as you did you idiot!

And my point stands - the AVERAGE casual user familiar with a common Windows or Mac and who is not intimate with the internal structures of an OS or OS theory is lost when presented with Linux...and that includes many who are familiar with the Mac or a Windows box.

I am tired of all of the 'cults of personality' surrounding both MS and Apple. Especially Apple!

I would like to think that both companies are more than some media darling making political statements.

And it would be nice to see Both companies standing on their products and not on the emotionally based spin.

It certainly appears that both companies are spending more time and effort in promoting their associated entertainment based products than their computer products.

I looks like ol' Steve tried to postpone the inevitable spin regarding Leopard's delay, while MS has NO grounds upon which to stand in regards to delays; except perhaps in that they are in a good position to claim ownership to the concept.

"to rush the launch of Vista"

now there is an oxymoron...

And to say they "cut planned features" is such an understatement as to be almost meaningless.

Wow.....well said!

Yeah, no complaints from Mac users. That's rich. The sound of one man screaming is never as loud as a thousand of them screaming. People will always find something to complain about, but it's easier to hear it when PC users do it. If roles were reversed and the PC/Microsoft were the niche market, I'm sure we'd hear the complaints about Macs much more clearly.

Well thought out articles.

http://daringfireball.net/2007/04/bottleneck

Sexist arguments??, hmm I didn't read that in his comment. Someones overly sensitive.
By the way there are many articles written BY women who comment about the ratio of men to women in grasping technology and gadgets. Most men are tinkerers and most women don't want to be bothered with it. There's nothing sexist about it, it's just what interests a person.

I've converted many people to Macs and haven't found that much of a learning curve issue.

You would be surprised at how often I agree with some of your viewpoints. I keep trying to show you that your point is being missed by your discriminatory personal attacks on others in these discussions.

What does the wife of a guy working for Apple have to do with the discussion? Nothing!

You only even triggered in on that one of many points because I made it a personal attack against your family. You missed another generalization I leveled against you. That you are a kid. Mom and Sister aren't the same as saying your wife. If you were older you may understand that and have picked up on it.

You are full of knowledge, opinions and a willingness to share it. You lack the capacity to deliver your message in a way it will be received by those you target.

So by going off into your personal attack on me you just proved my point once again. Some guys on these forums may find your post funny and enjoy the digs you got in but it didn't get them to see your original point of view objectively.

Yes it was an oxymoron. That was my point. Glad you got it. So it wasn't meaningless! :)

I relate the learning curve of PC to Mac to getting someone driving a Ford to drive a Toyota. If you have ever driven more than one car you understand what I'm talking about. The learning curve is harder from Mac to PC to be sure and users of the Mac tend to stay more productive and enjoy more of their time using the computer in sharp contrast to the PC users.

Kudos to Ed for calling a spade a spade. He didn't spare Microsoft the same critical honesty he offers here toward Apple. What if Microsoft had said they were delaying Vista until Fall '07 to upgrade XBox, or worse, Zune? Apple might be better served by splitting itself into two divisions (or companies) now that they are the de facto portable music hardware supplier for the planet. Such a move would certainly serve their customers.

Oh wait, as I've learned over and over, customers suck! and don't matter anymore, unless you're suing them. Because of licensing, activation, and DRM issues, I've already dropped Adobe and Corel from my software stack, despite having used their products since the early 90s. Microsoft is next, but it will take a little longer.

Don't know how you can praise the author of this lame little rant.

same way you can praise apple for every little thing they do.

Maybe you should ask the author if he is a regular Mac user. He is.

I have had my share of pc's and macs over the years, and I find it hard to understand the rationale behind mac haters. Unless you have used a mac, you don't know what you are talking about. Mac hardware and OS wins hands down!

"Mac hardware and OS wins hands down! "

Wins in what?? I have a mac laptop that was handed down to me from my manager just to play around with...but I gotta tell you, after playing around with it for a little while, I've never felt any kind of urge to turn of my pc and open up that laptop...

Apple people sure spend a lot of time trolling news articles. Maybe because that's all a mac is good for... surfing the web.

"Mac hardware and OS wins hands down!"

Mac hardware and OS wins at nothing. Now that they switched to x86 processors from Intel, the hardware is pretty much the same. I mean, they just added a nice little hardware "lock" so that only Apple approved processors work with it. Just so they can pretend to be original. Guess who makes the other hardware like video cards, etc for the Mac? You guessed it, it's nVIDIA, ATI and the rest of the PC hardware manufacturers.

That leaves us with the Mac OS. It's great and all, except for one tiny little problem. The fact that it doesn't run 95% of the major applications or games that are out there. Major application developers like Adobe/Macromedia take the Mac about as seriously as they take Linux. Given the choice, I'd rather run Linux on PC hardware and not have to pay the outrageous premiums Steve Jobs is charging all the suckers for a shiny white box.

Only fanboys like you and the others find ANY topic of discussion in the basic hardware (as distinct from design issues).

Both camps still seem stuck in the 90's thinking the Mac is anything other than the latest incarnation of the Intel Roadmap - complete with a native version of the extensible firmware interface developed for the 64-bit Itanium - just one more feature cut from Vista.

Outrageous premiums huh? Compare the Mac Pro with its dual quad core Xeons with an Alienware game rig for twice the price with a couple of Duo extremes. Whatever.

Go play with Linux. And marvel at the plethora of native Linux world class applications that dominate the IT world.

UNIX? Sure! But a 'real' Unix...

Suckers? I think that would be defined as the mom that someone, in a warped moment, gives a Linux desktop.

"The fact that it doesn't run 95% of the major applications or games that are out there. Major application developers like Adobe/Macromedia take the Mac about as seriously as they take Linux. Given the choice, I'd rather run Linux on PC hardware"

And that dysfunctional MacOs you deride...it runs your puny library of Linux appls in addition to its own!

So Adobe is taking Linux seriously? Really!?

And your only rant is that you want to run your 'little OS that wanted to' on "PC hardware". The irony is that OSX can be run on late generation 'PC hardware' with a bit of tweaking - about the same that it takes to get Linux running. And when you do, Linux is 'what compatible' with Windows? Oh, none at all. It can neither read Windows files nor talk to a Windows machine except through terminal emulation. Soooo advanced!

Nice functional mid range servers, and after 15+ years of open source design, that is where they seem destined to stay.

But Linux taking over the desktop...Not.

But by all means have fun with your little Linux PC. And troll the Linux threads for a change and preach your 'Linux is taking over the desktop' rant to the choir.

All that comment does is show an incredible lack of knowledge on your part.

"Major application developers like Adobe/Macromedia take the Mac about as seriously as they take Linux."

That's about the dumbest statement made in the whole thread. THAT company probably take the Mac platform more seriously than any other. The main drawback to a Mac is and has been gaming.

Now I don't give a damn which platform anyone uses, since I use them both. However, as for the "shiny white box" I have to give the Mac credit for one thing; you don't need anywhere near the horsepower to get a job done on a Mac that you do on a PC and the OS is the reason. I've got a nearly two year old Mac Mini that can actually render a movie in a decent amount of time without crashing. I could never get that done on a bargain basement Windows machine. It's the dirty little secret of the Mac/PC fight, that you can do more with less hardware because of the OS. It's kind of like the difference between running Norton A/V 2005 and NOD32; it's the drag on the resources that kills you.

Am I the only one who skips over anything foxfyre says in his pointless 20+ replies per article? Reminds me of this kid we used to have on our most popular BBS back in the early 90's. He'd have an opinion on everything and he would reply to every message posted just to voice his opinion. If people said the sky was blue, he'd argue it was green. If they said the sky was green, he'd argue it was blue.

...bargain basement Windows machine...
Exactly why their performance was so different. So many people expect to buy the cheapest Windows machine they can find and have it run like the best thing out there.

"Am I the only one who skips over anything foxfyre says in his pointless 20+ replies per article?"

You mean I respond to replies unlike you who simply prove that you are a liar as stated in your own terms?

Just out of curiosity, when are you going to START ignoring them and start walking your inane talk instead of simply making noise?

Kashin,

I've been trying to clue him in on how to effectively get his points across. It's not working yet, but I'm not giving up yet. :) He actually has some good points to make if he knew how.

EDIT: and better yet is to say something he's already said and have him attack it. :)

See...as new versions come out, you need better hardware. Try running OSX on a 5 year old mac...you can probably make coffee, drink it, wait for it to get out of your system, and probably still wait for OSX to finish booting.

And you wouldn't be running a 5 year old basement bargain machine with XP on it...I love how apple people come out and say how much faster botton of the line apple machines are 5 years ago, running a different version of mac os and comparint it to XP...it's hillarious.

What's hilarious is that I never said anything about a 5 year old machine.

What? I compared a cheap Mac to a cheap PC.

What a silly article --- So what if Leopard is "late" --- Tiger runs very nicely, I get everything done that I need to get done, and I don't see how switching to Leopard will make a SIGNIFICANT difference to my productivity.

It's not as if Tiger is out of date or anything.

The point is the hypocrisy. Apple couldn't stop itself from criticizing Microsoft at every turn over Vista. Now, they're late themselves, and use the iPhone as a scapegoat? Come on now.

So let me get this straight, you call it hypocrisy when Apple has ONE product delay while Vista had, oh, about 4.

Not to mention workforce. Microsoft is supposed to have 10 times as many employees with skill. Yet, what we got, was Vista. Yeah, thanks Microsoft, why use awesome things you promised, such as WinFS and Faster Boot Times, when you can just deliver a RAM hog that still can't process graphics as well as Quartz with HALF the RAM.

As far as I'm concerned, Apple could release JUST Time Machine as the next OS and still have delivered a more stable and complete product.

To not be critical of Vista if you are even somewhat technologically competent is to be downright irresponsible and damaging to the future of computing. If you can sit there and call Vista an true advancement in computing, then you might as well stay in 2003, when all of the features available in Vista first appeared elsewhere.

>> To not be critical of Vista if you are even somewhat technologically competent is to be downright irresponsible and damaging to the future of computing. If you can sit there and call Vista an true advancement in computing, then you might as well stay in 2003, when all of the features available in Vista first appeared elsewhere.

LOL imaraginasian. That statement just goes to show how ignorant you are about what is in Vista. You obviously haven't looked beyond what you can see in front of you (i.e. the Vista UI) and what's in the brochures. Even with the dropped features that you quoted there are so many significant enhancements under the hood that don't necessarily show as features in the UI, e.g. ASLR (Address Space Layout Randomization), UAC (User Account Control), improved software DEP (Data Execution Prevention) with it's integration with UAC, etc. At that's just scratching the surface.

Each of these companies have displayed arrogance and hypocrisy over the years. Each of them have made lame excuses about delays and each of them bash each other whenever the opportunity arises.

Your article reads like a rant from a fanboy who finally gets a chance to lash out. And, that's okay. Heck, we get to rant off in these forums all the time, why shouldn't you?

So let me get this straight, you call it hypocrisy when Apple has ONE product delay while Vista had, oh, about 4.
Perhaps you should look up the meaning of "hypocrisy"?

Websters: http://www.m-w.com/cgi-b...search&va=hypocrisy

Entry for "hypocrisy"
1 : a feigning to be what one is not or to believe what one does not; especially : the false assumption of an appearance of virtue or religion
2 : Grazer asking me the definition of hypocrisy

Look, you can throw acronyms around all day, it doesn't make you any more intelligent and it doesn't make Vista crash any less. Besides, if it's an acronym war you want, I promise the UNIX based systems have plenty more to go around, and the things they represent work properly.

And I don't mean that ASLR in Vista doesn't work properly, I'm saying that it doesn't matter how many sub-systems you have working correctly if the thing as a whole cannot operate.

Feel free to scratch a little farther, maybe we'll look at some other things that don't matter to the overall fact that Vista is an improvement, but NOT what was promised or even close to what is deserved for the amount of time put in.

3. Apple making fun of MS for not being able to meet self set deadlines, when Apple itself is not above delays of its own.
4. A person not knowing a definition thinking they understand it enough to add to it.

Apple didn't start making fun Microsoft's inability to meet deadlines until it become apparent that the company was unable to make them, which is why your claim is flawed. Apple would have to delay THREE more times before it even came close being an act of hypocrisy.

At least it's an OS upgrade worth waiting for, unlike Vista.

This "OS upgrade" you speak of must not be this service pack named Leopard that everyone else is talking about...

Apple "service packs" are free updates such as 10.4.1, 10.4.2, etc. This is an actual OS upgrade, not a service pack. Happy trolling anyway though.

An over priced upgrade is more like it. We got our moneys worth with XP, free upgrades SP2 anyone.

Pay for an over priced and poorly written software. If iTunes and Quicktime are any indication no wounder their OS was delay and still has sooooo many bugs.

iTunes and Quicktime perform flawlessly with OS X, why would they even consider making a 100% bug free version for Windows?

I wouldn't call it our moneys worth considering all the money consumers spent protecting their OS from Microsofts poorly written software.

Symantec: $50
Perimeter firewall: would have one either way
Windows Firewall: Free
Security updates: Free

Yes...I spent SO MUCH money protecting myself from this poorly written software that you could have obviously written better yourself!

Uh...because Ipod sales didn't take off until they made it compatible with Windows?

You do know that the mac user base is the MINORITY, right?

"iTunes and Quicktime perform flawlessly with OS X, why would they even consider making a 100% bug free version for Windows?"

You're saying that Apple is capable of making a 100% bug free version of their crappy software for Windows, but they choose not to? Hilarious. Go enjoy your reassuringly expensive iMac and its flawless pieces of software. Both of them.

So I guess what you're saying is your time is worth nothing.

Can I interest you in a job?

How long does it take to install an anti-virus program? five minutes? How much do you get paid per minute on your job?

My time for what...setting up windows update and having it download and install patches automatically for me at 3am while I sleep? Yea that was a tough one, took me a good 30 seconds, I should charge MS back for that time...

LOL! worth waiting for? all your getting is a better slide show and a overglorified undelete feature that XP already has.

And with Vista you get bugs, massive compatibilities, increased costs, and the very latest in DRM technology. Oh, and a prettier GUI.

Neither of them sound great to me.

and the very latest in DRM technology.

God, you people are idiots...

That's it???

C'mon back after coffee and some breakfast, because I know you can do better than that.

Need anything more be said? I've only explained the difference between DRM and support for DRM protected content several times here already.

If Linux or Mac want to have the same media play on their pcs, drm support will be either integrated or offered via download, either way if they want to play they will have to follow the rules just MS did it built in, does it affect media that sint built with drm tech, no it doesn't its only support for drm media.

XP had this as well except it was offered as a download to play protected content.

my mistake, glanced at yours and flake's post at the same time and thought it was the same person

No it doesn't take me 5 minutes personally. I was responding to flake's post where he seems to imply that it takes hours or even days to secure a Windows PC. It was an expression. Did you even read what I was replying to or did you just glance at my post and start typing a response?

I was defending Windows in my post, I did not say Macs or infallible, in fact I did not even mention them. I swear the reading comprehension of some people here is terrible. You are just so eager to jump in and start flaming someone you do not even take the time to really read what they actually said.

Yes you have, and we all thank you for your time an effort.

How very mature of you...

It takes a min or so and you can run to the kitchen grab a drink and be done with it.

You don't have to put anti virus on a pc because viruses don;t materialize out of thin air, many people run their pcs without it and have never had any problems.

As has been discussed over and over again if Mac or Linux ever gets a much bigger market share you honestly think they are bulletproof? Seriousily, you are living in a dream world if you believe Linux or Max is infallable.

They issue security updates just like everyone else does which means patching a vulnerability which means it is possible to do; will it happen now? Probably, not as its a pointless endeavor but let either become real competition for MS and it would be a different story.

Why don't you get your facts straight? MS literally stole code from quicktime as they tried to kill it. The placed code in it to make it crash and blamed it on apple.

Quicktime runs circles around that useless Media Player!

You know, it's freaking funny, our office is full of Dell laptops with DVD roms in them and the freaking thing can't play a DVD. You litterally have to go out and download VLC or some other 3rd party software to user it!

and that my friends is WINDOWS! It is junk! Get it JUNK!

Yeah, that's why 80% of the market wants an iPod that runs with iTunes!

People choose to purchase the iPod and iTunes combo. People buy a computer and are FORCED FED WINDOWS!

There is a difference!

MS has taken much longer to issue patches than Apple has and many of the people that write this stuff do it for a name, that means that with all the press about Apple being more secure, they would have done it if they could. When OSX gets to 25% of the market, it will still be WAY more secure than Win.

Yeah, and the CPU cicles that are waisted as your virus scan shreds thru your drive is not a cost? Your pc is garbage. Get it garbage.... lol

Well SP2 was a necessity or the entire world would have just gone out and cut Bills throat!

Because it was such a freaking mess.

This anyone say WINME? What a pile of junk! lol

Overglorified? lol ajajajajajajajajajajaja you freaks, if MS would have done this you would have been screeming like monkeys all over the place! lol jajajajajajajajajaja

You are jealous freak!!!! jajajajajajajajaja

I want to think this guy was trying to be sarcastic somehow...but I dunno, he sounds like he really doesn't know what he's talking about.

You understand why MS releases patches on tuesdays right? System Admins need to plan for patches, so they complain to MS about patch releases, and MS gives them a concrete patch day to work with.

The rest of your post doesn't make any sense so I'm not going to bother trying to argue it....for one thing apple will never have 25% market share, and for another if they ever do you can kiss your perceived security goodbye.

Thank you again...you're so kind.

Yes, Microsoft has messed up Quicktime, especially when you download it off of Apple's site, so because it crashes from downloading it off of Apple's site Microsoft did it?

Seriousily?

Quicktime is still a bloated mess on the pc and when you have to install quicktime with itunes even though you don't need it, thats a Microsoft problem too hmm?

There's a joke in here somewhere or maybe a belated april fools?

Actually, no. There is no advertising for other companies, no flashy ads, no big billboards in NY of other mp3 player companies.

Apple gets bought because of name recognition and it works with every accessory you can think of. (like Microsoft, it runs everything there is no need to worry it won't work with something)

There are many many players out there that perform much better but everyone knows about Ipod.

Itunes as an application sucks,
- There is no quick easy way to remove songs that are no longer in your library.
- You can't even highlight a certain amt of songs to delete its either all or one.
- There is no cd text (granted this may be a problem for the individual companies not itunes)
- You can't remove duplicates in an easy manner again no highlighting the songs you want to get rid of you have to select each one or all
- Even if you close Itunes it still has several processes still running that don't need to be

If they could fix this and give it a better color scheme or option to skin it, it would be a lot easier to manage.

Ipod would have bottomed out if they hadn't released it to those Windows users you keep insulting.

you do realize the only difference between a mac computer and a windows computer is a bios setting, right?

You don't have to run a/v on a pc, you just have to be a smart user and not download everything in sight.

Again when Mac reaches the same market share and is still virus free then you can reign yourself champion as Mac has had numermous flaws in their software as well.

seek help, immediately please...

cicles that are waisted

O.

M.

G.

See kids? This is why you shouldn't sniff glue.

Wow.

It's like....

....Foxfyre's Evil Twin. Only dumber...and more immature.

Hey!

Thanks for creating more advertising for Apple! The more you either write negatively or positively, the more people become interested and curious about this company called Apple and their cutting edge products. There's a lot of switchers out there and news like this makes them more interested on the product they have learnt to love. Keep the news coming Media!!

hey! That applies to everything out there...thanks for this lack of logic...thanks!! lol

You're welcome, lol.

Right, because there are lots of people out there who have never heard of Apple. lmao

What's so cutting edge about a pc wanna be that doesn't work with any of my applications? It does come in a pretty little white box though...

Oh yea...and that AppleTV! Now THAT's cutting edge! It's like a huge ipod with no screen, brilliant!

"The more you either write negatively or positively, the more people become interested and curious about this company called Apple and their cutting edge products."

You're joking, right? Cutting edge products. Hahahaha. They only thing Apple's products cut are wallets.

"There's a lot of switchers out there and news like this makes them more interested on the product they have learnt to love."

A lot of switchers? Yeah, so they're up to what now.. 2% market share? Yes, products from Apple are definitely something you have to "learn" to love. I'm guessing you fell for those dumba** commercials Apple keeps running. You know those PC vs. iMac skits, where the PC is represented by this short, aging, balding "techie" wearing earth tone colors and looking dumb, against the hip, young kid who looks like he stepped out of a Matrix movie. All the points they make are so valid. Like how you don't have to buy a webcam for the iMac, because it comes with one! That's so amazing! When I see that, I always get the urge to run out and buy an iMac. Wait, no. I lied.

"Like how you don't have to buy a webcam for the iMac, because it comes with one! That's so amazing! "

LOL yea I love that one!

"we charge at least 25% more for a less compatible machine, but you get a free webcam with it!!"

Yeah.. my HP laptop has a webcam built in with stereo mics...

"What's so cutting edge about a pc wanna be that doesn't work with any of my applications?"

Parallels and Boot Camp have made that a pretty weak argument. No offense intended, just pointing out that that one might not be so valid anymore.

Ok...but why would I buy a more expensive machine that I will end up running Windows on 99% of the time anyway?

A lot of people are buying Macs because they like the Mac OS better and they like that they still have the option of running Windows when they have to.

Is this going to lead to an immediate change in market share? Heck no. People get used to something and basically don't like change. However, Microsoft has managed to irritate enough people that there are folks out there who are looking in Apple's direction, especially since the "it can't run Windows" obstacle is gone.

And, you can keep parroting the "cost" factor all you want, but that gap is closing, too. If you pay a "premium" price for a Mac these days, you are getting as good if not better hardware. Spend $5000 on a PC right now and you get a quad core. Spend the same $5000 on a Mac and you can get eight cores! The whole cost thing has always been a little overblown anyway, since most Macs came with a high-end monitor included.

Yeah and the mic is so big, that my grandma has no problem finding it... and she's blind.... lol

It is amazing! and if you can't see that then you need to check you eyes, the machine rocks, but you might not make enough to afford it. and that's saying alot when you can get one for less than a grand. I guess working at MacDonals dosen't pay.... lol ****ing a....

Less compatible than what? You can run windows apps and so can an Apple user, you can run Linux apps and so can an Apple user, you can't run apple apps and apple users can.

What are you talking about?

Your pc has as much class as you do. Windows is a freaking joke and you're to blind to see it. Vista is bearly playing catch-up and in 5 months they'll be left in the dust.

The day I purchase a computer that boots into a 1000 commercials and is preloaded with malware, that will be the day I'll call it quits.

We are cutting edge, and you just get to wish you could afford one!

Wow...this is the ULTIMATE fanboy right here! :)

Now I know what to tell people when they ask me what a fanboy is...look up dorianbetanews. Enjoy your mac...you can keep telling yourself you're better then me if it makes you feel better...unlike you I personally don't need to compare d*ck sizes on the internet, LOL.

I like it!!! IMHO, it's a good product. Mine has 70 ripped movies, 120GB of digital music, 6GB of family pictures, 16 podcasts of the Sunday news shows, all available at the click of a remote. BTW, I am writing this on a MBP, running Vista in Parallels. Both operating systems are up, running simultaneously, and are rock solid. Sounds like alot of "green-eyed monsters" flame here and are full of crap. Be informed about the possible, and look to the future. Here is some free advice provided by A. Lincoln, "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt."

First of all price points are now about equal. Secondly, why rule out the ability to run OSX as a foundation OS since it it the more solid of the two. Thirdly, you can easily switch between both Vista & OS X apps simply by launching them. If you work in PC applications at work, but happen to prefer Adobe products running on a Mac, it's easily done. Also anything app that runs in XP will pretty much work here. Peripherials are easily recognized. Any game with a x86 OS will run native. So you get the best of both worlds. Putting all this aside, I personally think we will see this OS argument fade in the near future as OS builds merge. Also, since we are talking about OS market share, I believe since OS X has now been hacked to run on non-apple X86, we will soon see an official release of OS X for these machines. That would pretty much wipe away the "who does what for whom" argument. The position I don't understand is why so many people diss Apple outright. Their current hardware reasonably priced and their intel boards are cutting edge. So what exactly is the problem?

come on give apple a break, they don't really sell computing devices any more...now it's music devices and phones. It'll be like Sega...hehe and I loved Sega, but never really Apple.

smug apple-ites rejoice in your smugness :D

Pathetic attempt to generate traffic with an inflammatory title.

That said, the delay is unfortunate. It doesn't seem like such a massive upgrade. It should have been out earlier.

Pathetic enough to get your traffic here I see.

"What's wrong with admitting the truth, Steve?" Oh for ****s sake.

I really hope you don't get paid much.

Wow, now even the article titles here are flame bait.

four months is a lot different than five years.

as Vin Diesel said it

"It don't matter if you win by an inch or a mile, winning's winning"

so it goes to Apple ....

Be it a day or a year, late is late

That Vin Diesel...he's a wise man that man.

Not his original quote...

Quoteable quotes should be quoted with quoter reference, and I quote : " Credit where credit is due "

Latz, SB

Latz?

what makes them look more like hypocrites is the fact that the iPhone itself will come loaded with Leopard ....

Will they be delivering devices with an unfinished OS ???

lol, nice approach.

yawn

sorry.