wtf is norway doing? i totally agree with apple in this. if anyone ever says apple is forcing people into their format im going to say: "pull ur head out ur a$$!!!"

first off apple isnt forcing consumers to go to their local walmart to fork out the cash for an ipod. they choose to. because ipods are great players. and owning an ipod doesnt mean u have to use itunes. u can buy CDs, use limewire, or other download services. the conversion from others formats is as easy a drag and drop in ur itunes window. the average 6 year old mentally challeneged kid can do it.

so apple isnt forcing u to use a locked out format. people CHOOSE to download from itunes. so if u in fact choose to use their format then ur doing it to urself.

and another thing about this argument makes it really really stupid. they say if u use itunes ur locked out from other formats: true. BUT if ur using itunes in the first place it means u have an ipod.(correct me if im wrong but most people dont buy an mp3 then try and use itunes with it, LMAO to anyone who does that!) so therefor most people dont go buy an ipod then buy another mp3 player. thats stupid. and truely people. ipods are one of the most reliable products out there when taken take of. (u cant use that bulls*** excuse of dropping in the tiolet and it not working so the product sucks) i have never EVER heard of an ipod just one day not working like pretty much all other products seem to do eventaully.

so basically im saying go ahead norway. who gives a sh!t???? its free market. it IS legal competition. if people thought apple was doing them wrong then the ipod would be so popular and itunes wouldnt dominate like it does.

once again the consumer is CHOOSING all of this. so this whole argument isnt even newsworthy.

Oh yeah. Also Holland, Finland, Germany and France joined in on this...

Right on Norway! iTunes and DRM and the fact you can't listen to music you own on other than Apple devices sucks. Once iTunes songs work on other devices and DRM is gone, I will start buying music online (if I get rights to the uncompressed files also)

I don't see why people are so upset by Apple linking their iPods to their store.

Nobody is forcing people to purchase anything Apple. There are PLENTY of other sources for people to purchase music from. It's not like you can only get certain albums at iTunes and nowhere else.

If you do not want to support DRM - do not BUY DRM.

Apple's customer was never advise that song purchased from iTune will only works for iPod.

Customers are more powerful than DRM, not only in Norway. They have the last say about what survives or not in the bussiness world. Big corporations forget it very easily, in the belief that they may sell anything they want using the appropiate advertising campaigns.

I don't understand why are so many people supporting Apple. An open format will benefit everyone. If I buy music online, I want it to play on all the mp3 players I have. Not just 1 player. In the case of itune and Ipod, if my ipod broke, I will lose all my songs. I will have to buy another ipod in order to lise to it. Of course, I can always listen it on my computer.

I am not really supporting or not supporting Apple. But I do wonder why digital music should get special treatment and be forced to an open format. No one is suing Microsoft because Office documents don't use an open format. No one is suing Quicken because TurboTax won't run on my LINUX system. No one is suing Nintendo because I can't play my Nintendo CD on my PS3.

To use your analogy, if I buy software, I want to run it on all the OSs I have, not just 1. If my Windows PC breaks, I would lose all my software and would have to buy another Windows PC in order to use.

When I buy software, it will works on all PC. Not just Dell or HP. It will works. The software developer has the option to port it to other OS. It's their decision. You see, the thing with Apple's FairPlay is Apple does not own the artists or the songs. They just a middleman.

So basicly you like being raped up the bum by apple? Is that what I hear you saying?

I'd like to see apple simply stop servicing Norway. Then they would not be subject to their laws.

Why do business with a country that is trying to dictate to you in this manner?

prof·it
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/profit

Oslo is the most expensive city in the world, there's an awful lot of money to be had there.

Meh. They get tons of business from the US - they can afford to take a stand against Norway and the EU if they wish. I'd like to see them do it.

Yeah, Apple!
You 'd better watch out or the world financial superpower Norway will stop buying your stuff.

But then only the Norwegian government would, wouldn't it!?

Better yet, I WANT to see Norway try to stop individuals from making online purchases/downloads of Apples stuff!

That should be interesting!

Apple should just say "OK, we're out of here." And Norway loses the tax revenue from sales and individuals can still order whatever hardware or software they want online.

Final score: Norway 0, Apple 1

I'm saying they could, but they won't.

Profit reigns over morals and standing for 99.9% of companies.

"Apple should just say "OK, we're out of here." And Norway loses the tax revenue from sales and individuals can still order whatever hardware or software they want online."

Import tax isn't something you understand is it. They don't have to stop them from buying it, they just take a stand against Apple selling products that are of dubious legality in Norway; they still get all the tax and possibly more from import taxes.

I'm saying they could, but they won't.
Just like Microsoft could stop selling products to the EU, but they won't.

A few other examples would be China, Japan, France, Germany, oh heck, everyone. So no matter where you live, everyone else is violating your local laws. You have to deal with it in order to keep world trade humming along. Without it, most businesses would whither and die.

They are part of the EU. It is easy to source such products in say...Sweden or Denmark or Finland! And you think that no one can buy them by proxy and have them sent over the border as a personal item? Duh!

Hell, in the 70's we took Levis to the Soviet Union for friends by wearing 4 pairs that were strategically sized! Sure we were like the Michelin man and could barely bend to sit, but we passed the import regulations and customs that said we could only carry so many in our luggage! So we wore the damned things! Gee, but the rules said we couldn't! Duh!

And you can't figure out how to get iPods into Norway because of an import tax!

And I guess they are going to start inspecting EVERY package to see if it is a commercially sourced iPod and not simply someone's already owned property being returned from a proxy 'friend'?

Amazing, folks just like you sit there and tell us that no DRM schema is foolproof, but that a blackmarket, if you will, of goods cannot exist - or that the Norwegians are too stupid to be able to go to, say Sweden or Denmark or Finland for the afternoon and buy one?

Sorry Dufus!

YOU are evidently too stupid to figure out a way around this, but millions of Norwegians aren't!

If people want 'em, they can get 'em.

So, when are they sued for selling software that does not run on my pc?

And now they are also starting to sell a phone that can be used with any operator.

Of course, it's not the same thing. In some ways, it is more comparable to a website that will only work on one browser, not because other browsers can't display it, but because a particular company decides they only want their own browser displaying it. Microsoft are partly guilty of that, but I digress.

Other players could play music from iTunes just fine, if it wasn't for the DRM.

First let it be known i would never own an ipod.

I think Apple should be able to sell the ipod and itunes music as is because it will help make people smarter after spending hard earned money on the player and music to fill it up and when it breaks relize that they are stuck buying a new one and can't use anything else maybe next time they will actualy look at the alternatives instead of just going that looks cute or listening to the sales person going this models popular and buy it instead of asking questions.

People rely on the government too much to protect them from their own stupididty or laziness to look into products before buying.

"Apple hopes that European governments will encourage a competitive environment"

You can't say that if you're the people that aren't competing, but utterly dominating.

The Norwegians *are* encouraging a competitive environment by questioning Apple's right to have a closed system when it comes to music; taking the money for the player and the music because the music can't be played on any other system. Thus having a Monopoly when it comes to the music side of things (you *have* to buy their player).

Well said.

The Norwegians *are* encouraging a competitive environment by questioning Apple's right to have a closed system when it comes to music;

No, they're not.

They're saying, they don't want anyone to be forced to compete with the end-to-end package that is iTunes/iPod. If they actually wanted competition in the end-to-end market, they'd leave it alone.

Instead, they are taking the socialist route and trying to force apple to adhere to some fancy notion of "Information wants to be Open."

It's a nice idea, but it's going to have the opposite effect. It won't bolster competition, it will stagnate it. No-one will be forced to compete with iTunes and it will then become "just another player".

Yeah, I don't see them getting fired up over Sony and UMD.

Hm. So if Sony suddenly decided that it wanted to add something to its CDs that meant they'd only play on certain systems, including their entire range of hardware, you'd support them? ;)

I would not buy them, but I would fight to the death their right to do so.

Sure, it'd be corporate suicide, but I have no problem with that, though their shareholders might.

Apple created their own protected format with it's own benefits and deficits. Why should they *not* be able to reap the rewards or consequences of that product?

Honestly, If you want the song, buy the CD. They are selling a format and a medium. The song is a bonus and restricted by the format/medium through which it was sold.

Point.

Of course they're not. It isn't actually all that popular.

iTunes, however, generates enormous revenue and market share. Perfect target for any money-hungry socialist government.

I've always said, that the way to judge which country is the "best" to live in is by watching the direction of the refugee boats. Last time I checked, not too many were setting sail for Norway. :)

"could mean much to Apple's future in Europe"...maybe... BUT Norway is NOT part of the European Union. Norway opted out of the union(clever move given the massive amount of bureaucracy the EU is implementing). The case will be interesting.

You have a point, but when it comes to it each country still does what they want to do if they are in the EU or not, frankly. There's just more red tape surrounding any decisions they make.

What has to be taken into account is that Apple created the iTMS to make the iPod more attractive to it's customers and to provide a legal means of obtaining music. It is a service for iPod owners.

If there had been no iTMS, Apple would have probably gotten sued for aiding music piracy.

There are plenty of alternative music stores and players. It's not like the customer has no choice. And even if you decide you might want to change to some other kind of device, you could always burn your music to CD and rip it back into your desired format.

I hope that Apple can continue doing business as is. Losing this battle would open the door to a bunch of other crazy lawsuits.

I wish people think twice about DMR... DMR is bad for you, I'll post some thoughts here that summarizes what i think :

"Let's say you use iTunes to buy and download lots of music for your iPod. All goes swimmingly for a year or so until your iPod dies, or is lost, or the dog ate it. Around that time Creative (or Archos or iRiver) introduce a new machine that is a must have alternative that blows the iPod out of the water. Just one catch, it doesn't play iTunes encrypted AAC. What are you going to do?"

source: http://www.voidstar.com/node.php?id=2346

and for mheavin, about the fourth option: Apple thought about it, but France and other nations supported Norway in his petition, so they backed up ;)which I think is great, i hope other companies get the message.

I agree man. thats why I download all my music using ares.

What the hell is DMR?

Digital Management Rights
(grin)

About time, in my opinion. I should be able to buy music from any online store and use it on any portable media player. This applies to all companies who practice this kind of thing, not just Apple.

If I buy a CD produced by Universal music, I don't want to be restricted to only having it work on a portable CD player licensed by them. Online music shouldn't be any different, right?

DRM has given rise to these ways of pushing an individual's product, when portable media players and buying music online are two completely different things.

Essentially, this boils down to drawing a line in the sand that dictates you cannot make a product such that it can only be enhanced or used by your own (other) products and nobody else's. Socialism creeps in.

So, does that mean in Norway that I will also soon be able to run Microsoft Office on LINUX, SONY Playstation games on my Nintendo, etc?

Aren't they omitting a fourth option...stop selling iPods in Norway?

And France, and Germany.

Twazzock.

Go pick on Sony instead, they are even worse when it comes to these things.

Atleast iTunes is usable.

I agree dmr is bad, but atrac is 200%dmr, whilst fairplay only 99%.

Appart from that SonicStage sux.
Just sold my nw-hd5 because of that, (in bad shape, and for $250). Waiting for iPhone now:)

Bottom line, atleast apples dmr infected music can be used, for those who actually pay for their tunes. And who sais you cant use music from other online stores on the ipod, (ma-b not wma) as long as it is fairplay or dmr free it works.

Make others abandon dmr to work with itunes:)

This is a stupid lawsuit. It is the same as asking vacuum cleaners to make one standard dustbin bag that is exchangable between all brands. I can imagine thousand of stupid lawsuits like this. This sounds more like a conspiracy to go after successful new products. Let the market decide waht iis right or not. By the way the iPod is able to play open standards as well AAC, mp3, aiff. Also don't forget that fairplay AAC gives the possibility to burn a CD from it.

so, you're comparing music with vacuum cleaner bags ?

even though I'm certain certain music producers share your opinion about what an album is worth, I think your comparison is invalid.

Music, before being a product (and certainly not an industrial product) is a work of art and culture, therefore it's the song that has a value, and not the medium (computer file or cd...).
So, if you buy a song, it is expected to be playable in the most universal possible way.
Isn't it why the CD was invented in the first place ? It's a standard format accepted by most of the hardware nowadays.

DRM by itself is a non-sense. It's just the wrong-doing of companies who refuse to play fair (pun intended) because of the fear that people not buying from them (understand people borrowing a CD from you, for instance) would hurt their sacred business.

Hmm, interesting theory.... let me see, I remember buying a cassette tape once but darned if my vinyl record player could handle it!

--->So, if you buy a song, it is expected to be playable in the most universal possible way.
Isn't it why the CD was invented in the first place ? It's a standard format accepted by most of the hardware nowadays.

Music used to be art and culture.

It *is* a product.

The only reason people are trying to reclassify it now is because they can easily duplicate it.

You've never been easily able to buy the rights to a song, and just because it's easy now to usurp those rights does not in any way make it your right to do so.

Since ease has made people lax in their views of the owner's rights, DRM has been created to re-assert those rights.

Sucks for those of us who are responsible, but hey, if it bites you guys in the ass, I'm all for it.

I've stated many times that while copyright is broken and needs to be fixed I in no way support it's being relegated to being inconsequential.

Dead right - to put it another way - people are stealing intellectual property and are consquently trying to JUSTIFY what they're doing with bogus arguments (i.e. it's too expensive, they wouldn't buy it anyway, they're "only" making a copy, not taking the original, blah blah blah)

I definitely want the right to play my music anywhere (privately, that is). I don't want (or need) the right to distribute it to others. If the copyright owner charges too much, I'll do without (and if everyone feels that way, the price WILL come down) and if people would stop stealing music, the music industry wouldn't have a leg to stand on wrt DRM