Apple's software is very impressive. Their style, features and software engineering is second to none to anyone in the industry including Microsoft. Their problem has to do more with keeping everything locked down, until they open up more add more hardware support. Let people build their own macs etc will they ever gain more market share with their os.

It's too bad Apple can't get more of a grip on the market. They seem to be some kind of bottom feeder. I am not sure exactly what the problem is, I mean they do offer a superior product to windows Xp. Unlike Linux, Apple is known for ease of use. I guess that tends to make people think Apple is still a kitty OS meant for newbies and not power users. Schools especially elementary schools used/use them. That has changed though most to windows and the PC.

I think they would be smart to open the os to any x86 computer not just their own Intel apple machines. But they would then open up the os from a very narrow hardware support, what they want in it and supported. They write the drivers they develop and test and polish. They sell it. That eliminates system instability. So you are forced to buy a apple machine and software together. Therefore keeping that proprietary frame of mind going strong. Which also keeps their adoption rate down as well. The ability to dual boot with xp is interesting and does help but in the end they are supporting MS. Even though another Mac is sold.

I hope their market share does go up, I also hope to see them open up the os, maybe make a free version of os x for any pc, then have the more extensive features mac pc only.

OS X 10.5 looks great and they seem to implement the features a lot better then Microsoft does either because Microsoft lacks talent/imagination or they fear anti-trust lawsuits.

I'm currently using Windows XP and it could be the last Windows version I use. I tried the beta 2 Vista and it was slow, bloated and buggy. I mean going from 550 MiB to 3.2 GiB is shocking and installed it took 8 GiB of space. I will try once again when RC1 comes out.

I've heard that Windows Vista Ultimate Edition will cost $500 that could drive a lot of people to Apple since it will drive the cost of PC's up.

Of course Linux gets better and better.

Vista beta 2 was not good in terms of performance, but keep in mind that more recent builds have improved speed. If you have Beta 2 supposedly you'll get access to Release Candidate 1... I'm going to try it out (it should be significantly faster) and you should too, since it'll be free. :)

Also Vista Ultimate probably won't come packaged with most PCs, manufacturers realize most people won't know or care about the differences between the 7 or so versions and will bundle the cheapest one with the new lower-end PCs.

Not the cheapest.

I'd imagine most new systems will ship with Vista Home Premium since most are now shipping with MCE and they wouldn't want to ship with *less* features.

The next step up for Home systems would be Ultimate. Not too much of a stretch, really. And since OEMs will likely be getting Vista at a large discount over the prices we've been told....ya never know.

I would not be suprised to see many systems shipping with Ultimate. If only for the sensationalistic factors.

I use both XP and OSX on a daily basis (on the same iMac ;)

XP just doesn't compare anymore to OS X. Will Vista fix that? I've yet to see an impressive build. Theres just no innovation on Microsoft's part. It's like, they *want* to innovate, and they at least try to innovate, but they've just no style whatsoever. No personality.

$500 for Vista Ultimate. Where the hell did you hear that?
MS wouldn't be so stupid to charge $500 for a glorified version of what is esentially just a professional version with media centre functionality tacked on.
Granted, the Ultimate version will be more, and we won't see the price drops we have currently with XP till its replacement is near.
But $500. I assume you are talking USD. That would cost me AUD $650. It won't sell in this country at that sort of pricing. XP Pro currently sells for around AUD $100 here.
Best not to speculate on pricing till it is announced. It causes to much BS discussion.

you can always buy the Windows Vista Basic

I am sure it fits your budget perfectly well!

Steve Jobs is a moron!

Somehow, I doubt the head of a *very* successful organization such as Apple could be a moron having reached to his current position.

Sounds more like a senseless bash to me.

He happens to be probably the MOST PERSUASIVE AND CONVINCING person in the world. Noone can sell like he does.

And why would that be? ;-)

You're a Moron for calling Jobs a moron. But he is scared I will tell you that. The only way he can feel better about his competition is to talk down on it because he knows he CAN'T take microsoft down...Hell, he used to work for M$, he of all people should know...

Agreed. I don't know anyone else can sell products in 2 for 1 format. That's it, sell a product with less functions for twice the price of a competitor.

Agreed

I don't lile jobs, but is is not a moron. He is a good speaker.
He is scared, negitive advertising shows that.

He thought his market shared was going to jump, but it has not moved

What product is he selling that has less functions? Are you talking about his computers or about the iPod? If the latter, consider all the companies that are successful due to branding (Nike, for example).
If his stuff was no good, do you really think millions of people would be fooled?

If his stuff was no good, do you really think millions of people would be fooled?
AOL subscribers have been for years.

uh huh - he sure looked scared

apple market share has gone up, did you actually watch the presentation?

bahahahahahaha, excellent point!

The later versions of OSX are quite good, from what I've seen. But XP (and hopefully Vista?) does all that I require.
But it doesn't matter how good an OS is if it's low market share is stagnant or worse, goes south. Without the success of the iPod, Apple would be dire about now, and there is no guarantee that their success with the iPod will last.
Apple have made a smart move moving to the technically superior Intel platform. But to have any chance to increase their market share anything greater than the odd point or two, they will need to code their OS so it loads on any "IBM compatible" PC that meets their system requirements. Which should be anything that XP is happy on.
Hell, even I (not your greatest Apple fan thanks mostly to fanatics in the Apple community) would purchase a copy to dual boot with Windows.

Yes, then I read the real numbers. 1/10 of 1% is a huge jump

No one except Bill Gates. The numbers prove that =\

I'm not going to say either OS is better than the other; it's really up to personal preference.

The one item that I do have an issue with is when reviews and articles (as well as Apple's commercials) talk about features or applications that Windows does not include "aka bundle".

Unlike Apple, when Microsoft includes an application with the OS, it's called bundling. If Apple adds applications to the the OS (iLife, iChat, and whatever other iApps) it's called an OS feature.

Given that, I think every reputable reviewer should not consider add-on apps as OS features when comparing products.

AHB

Agree. It's unfair to MS. But from consumer's point of view, more equals better. Most of the time, anyway.

Correction: iLife is bundled with Mac hardware, not with the OS. :)

"Unlike Apple, when Microsoft includes an application with the OS, it's called bundling. If Apple adds applications to the the OS (iLife, iChat, and whatever other iApps) it's called an OS feature."

The Internet Explorer lawsuit was an aberration. However, I do recall a lot of internet-based support for that lawsuit, and a lot of internet-based whining and crying about it when the Bush administration did their best to minimize penalties since the bulk of the case had already been decided.

Your analogy doesn't hold water, because it cites an extreme example.

Your analogy doesn't hold water, because it cites an extreme example.

Unless he edited it out of his post, he didn't mention the extreme example, you did. And I wouldn't call it an analogy, it is really more a comparison of how differently Windows and OSX are viewed. Mainly, that it seems that OSX "features" are welcomed, and MS "bundling" anything with Windows is seen as bad. I am sure you can find a large number of European legislators to support my claims ;)

Correction: iLife is bundled with Mac hardware, not with the OS. :)

Can you get iLife's updates and new features without buying Leopard?

"Unless he edited it out of his post, he didn't mention the extreme example, you did."

What? Are you serious? The entire point of his post is that Microsoft gets flak for bundling software, and Apple doesn't. What is the one example everyone cites of Microsoft getting flak? Internet Explorer. Though I suppose a more recent case would be Windows Media Player in Europe.

Point is, he's complaining about a double standard that does not exist.

Yes. iLife debuted in 2005.

Yeah...

All that hullabaloo over WMP, IE, Widnows defender...all abberrations.

Funny Mac hasn't had *any* abberrations of that kind...

...just sayin'.

Wow. You are absolutely clueless.

Considering everything included in Windows, two major allegations over, what, a 20 year history... that kind of fits the definition.

And let's not forget, IE is still bundled with Windows, so the only charge that's stuck is the EU's case against WMP.

It's actually not funny that Apple hasn't had the same problems as Microsoft. The Clinton Justice Department just wanted to be seen doing something high-profile and supposedly important, especially after various screw-ups in Clinton's first term. So they sued Microsoft. If Clinton was still president/Reno still Attorney General, we might well see a case against Apple building. But adults are running the Justice Department again, so we won't. Thankfully.

Really not seeing this supposed double standard.

Yes, because two cases constitute a lifetime of persecution over product bundling for Microsoft while Apple gets off scot-free. It has nothing to do with Microsoft's profile, and certainly the two cases brought against MS are proven to be airtight, right?

Bogus action against Microsoft does not constitute a pro-Apple double standard.

And I can get the new features without buying Leopard?

Bogus action against Microsoft does not constitute a pro-Apple double standard.

I don't think anyone was claiming that. But it definitely constitutes an anti-MS double standard.

Actually, anything that MSFT throws into the OS that has a 3rd party counterpart is usually considered bundling, especially in light of the IE/WMP problems. Also, let's not forget, we are not seeing Apple or Linux acting like the 90's juggernaut that was MSFT when they bundled IE in the OS to kill Netscape and other competing browsers.

The possible other reason that other operating systems (Apple, *nix, BeOS, etc) don't get the same flak over including products and services into the core operating system is because there is less 3rd party, commercial development that would be hampered by the bundled product or service. (There are more 3rd party Windows development shops that rely on a particular need within Windows to be there for them to exist. If MSFT were to bundle the solution to that need right into the core operating system, guess what, there goes a few development shops.

Granted, a lot of 3rd party products do exist that are superior to what MSFT puts into place, the trick is that with that bundled service right in the OS, how is the common (and unexperienced) user to know that a better product exists? Again, this is much to the chagrin of the development shop in question.

~dnc

And Apple does not have an almost monopolistic position in the marketplace

how is the common (and unexperienced) user to know that a better product exists?
Um. Advertising? Word of mouth?

So, if a company is insanely successful (for whatever reason) they should have to intentionally avoid integrating new ideas and features in order to give the little guy a chance?

Alright, I don't really care about the new "interfaces" that mac has... Time Machine? Windows has had System restore for over 6 years now. On top of that, I wouldn't TOUCH a mac unless I got into heavy hardcore graphics design even tho my PC can preform those functions just as well, but my PC has games games games! What does mac have? Super breakout? I'll stick with windows, hasn't done me wrong since 3.1

Mac sucks unless your a graphics designer...period

TimeMachine is not really system restore. It's more like the new versioning thing that's built into Vista.

Mac sucks unless your a graphics designer...period

Even then, in my opinion, they admitted defeat in the graphics arena when they started using third party graphics cards.

No...you are retarded. Photoshop and many other programs are just easier to use on an apple computer. It's not just about the hardware. The software just flat out runs better on an apple.

No...you are retarded.
Good way to start out, insulting the person you are replying to instead of providing a good argument.

Photoshop and many other programs are just easier to use on an apple computer.
How are they easier to use? Perhaps because you are more used to the Mac interface conventions?

The software just flat out runs better on an apple.
Can you show me benchmarks that show significant difference in performance and that don't make excuses for results not matching claims?

(Note: I'll restrain myself from being a smarta** and noting you called it an "apple". Oh, damn, I already did. Must be the retardation from using a microsoft setting in.)

Now is not a good time for a graphic designer to own a Mac.

There's no universal binary version of Photoshop yet. So if you run Photoshop on a new Intel-Mac, it would be running under emulation.

Gotta wait till next year; probably around Leopard's timeframe.

ahh I didn't know that. I used CS2 on a Macbook G4, and honestly my PC processed faster and cleaner than it did on the mac, I myself was actually suprised. But hey, maybe next year it'll be better for the mac guys

Good Argument Grazer. you are right too, Mac's are overpriced and overestimated. The only reason Apple didn't go out of business is because of the iPod and iTunes. Mac had a horrible reputation until Mac OS X, all previous versions were very unstable. (this is talking from experience, I have used all versions from Mac OS 6 up to 9 and they were all horrible) Mac OS X I would have to admit is actually not a bad OS, very stable just no one supports it.

umm dude, Time Machine is for Mac, System Restore is for PC. Obviously you didn't read the article.....

...maybe next year...

...maybe next processor...

...maybe next verision...

Yeah, maybe. ;)

When did he say otherwise?

Looks to me like he was defending TimeMachine for the Mac saying it was less like System Restore (A feature that's been in windows for years) and more like the 'new' versioning in Vista.

Actually, from what I have been reading in other articles, the newer macs are not really that overpriced. Overestimated? Probably by mac zealots; but given that you are now actually getting what you pay for when you buy a Mac and paying quite a bit, they should be pretty powerful.

There the same program on both platforms. How can one be easier to use than the other? Is it easier because you don't have to learn the left *and* right clicks on a mouse?

He never said Time Machine wasn't for the Mac. He was just comparing the two. Odviously you didn't read his post.....

Yeah, windows has had System Restore for the past 6 years and sometimes it has come in handy for me. As a mac user, it's kinda nice to have it but at the same time it's not.

As far as your games comment goes, some people don't use a Personal Computer (PC) for games. I know PCs have the games (and I wish they ported Half Life over to the mac) but some people use their computer for more than just games. I, personally, use mine for graphics (on a G5), internet, email, file sharing and chatting. It works great for what I do.

A lot of people do use macs for graphics but it can do so much more than that.

As far as your games comment goes, some people don't use a Personal Computer (PC) for games.
And having the games availible is bad how?

You obviously don't know much about what Time Machine does. XP's system restore does not offer 'ala carte' restoration like Time Machine does.

Note the operative word "System" in system restore. System restore monitors the registry and some DLLs and a user has to fool around with restore points.

It doesn't come even close to what Time Machine has to offer.

Mac just has breakout? Uhm, lets see what the survey says:

World of Warcraft
Doom 3
Call of Duty 2
Age of Empires 3
Quake 4...

I could go on and on, those are today's most popular games hands down. So don't give me that breakout crap. Oh, and with the intel imacs, if theres a game thats XP only, all you have to do is pop on boot camp and install XP. Fully automated, takes very little time.

You also forget to mention that Microsoft did put some money in apple a few years ago.

Why would Jobs even mention his competition (Vista) at all. Obviously it must be on his mind.

Because at the moment, they have very little else. Whatever Apple is hiding, it had better be good. What I've seen so far is a fix pack, not an upgrade.

Besides mentioning Vista is a good ploy; it stirs up the more vocal parts of the Mac community so they can help with the anti-Vista campaign, and also diverts attention away from the fact that so far, this is little more than a fix pack.

The entire point of mentioning Vista was to justify not showing more features at WWDC as was widely expected. Leopard may not be ready yet for a full public unveiling, so they got two for one by ribbing Microsoft and avoiding the unveiling of more significant features.

That said, I really don't see why people are complaining about Time Machine, Core Animation, Universal Access, and the features added to the various system programs. For what was billed as a "sneak peek," what we were shown was pretty damn impressive.

Why not? Nothing wrong with mentioning the competition or poking fun at them... after all, it's just that; competition. Some people don't seem to understand that.

there a lot of trolls here, esp Mr. PC_Tool

Heh...

Only in Mac topics. And seriously, what have I said that isn't true, eh?

Trolls seek to cause chaos in a forum. To misdirect the topic.

All I did was state some simple facts and comparisons.

statement of fact!==trolling.

Just ignore PC_TOOL and his Bill Gates fetish...LOL@PCHOMO

He is just that: a pc TOOL

And the whole purpose of that post was what again?

Ahh...flaming.

Right.

The mods are really on the ball today, folks.

u got one extra '=' there. lol.

uh...

It was for effect...

Yeah, that's it. ;)

hahahaha ha ha.... facts eh :-p

Mac users (incl. Apple itself) have been calling Vista a copycat. Now it seems like Leopard itself is a big copycat:
- Time Machine --> Shadow Copy
- Spaces --> Virtual Desktop Manager
- Core Animation --> Avalon
- a few features in iChat --> Windows Live Messenger
- a few features in Mail --> Outlook Express

Does anyone think the excitement over Leopard is blown way out of proportion?

Your comparisons are not all that great. I am not a Mac user but even I see their new features are great.

Time Machine is similar to Volume Shadow Copy but more user friendly. The interface is simple to use, Microsoft need something similar for VSC.

Virtual Desktop is a joke. Its slow, glunky and horrible to use. Spaces looks very nice, I really like the way I can create a "Music Space" and with one click have it load up several apps, etc. for me.

You are correct about Core Animation and Avalon. They are very similar. Infact I would probably say Avalon looks better.

WLM vs iChat? Please tell me that was a joke? All of the new video features can't be done with WLM. You can share your desktop but it isn't as nicely integrated as iChat looked in the demo.

Since when does Outlook Express have Todo and Notes? It has stationary but it is old and ugly. Microsoft's default tools are a joke compared to Apples. Not that it is a big deal to me as I do not use any of the default tools however I understand a lot of people do, this is an area where Microsoft get let down.

Also I know you did not start on about having to pay for new versions of apps in the OS but I want to say something about that and dont want two posts. You have to look at the apps as part of the OS. If you dont want them then dont pay for the new version. Its pretty simple. For users who do use iChat, Mail, etc they want new versions and paying £100 for that is fine to them. Infact it seems fair to me.

Perhaps I didn't make it clear in my post. I wasn't trying to compare the products per se. The Leopard version of these apps are generally much better, especially in the UI department.

My only issue is the name calling by Mac fans & Apple. They say Windows has been copying features & ideas from Mac. I see nothing wrong with it if it means better user experience. Just because Mac has it first and Windows has it later, doesn't mean that it's bad.

Now Leopard is implementing (and improving upon) many features that Windows already has. If they call Windows (and Vista) copycat, then I guess Leopard is itself a copycat too.

I just can't stand the hypocrisy.

I agree, But will wait until I play with the OS

Nah. The hate for Leopard is blown out of proportion, though.

1. Time machine is nothing like Shadow Copy. Do some research before making comparisons.

2. VDM is a lame powertoy. It has very poor integration compared to what we see with Spaces which is seemless. Besides, Linux had virtual desktops before NT (which is where VDM came from).

3. Core animation and avalon are similar as far as this: they are both graphics APIs. Wow, they are some serious copycats....

4. iChat: Backdrops (both photos and videos), Photobooth integration to make funny video effects, > 2 simultaneous video chats. ALL things Messenger does not have. Oh, does Messenger have tabs?

5. Mail.app blows OE out of the water in both UI (naturally), security, IMAP, .MAC integration, calendar integration, and plenty more.

So I don't think these are even comparable in some cases. For those of us using OS X, these are some great new features that will be fun and useful. What were vista's new features again? I forgot. Oh, Aero.

"...enabling a fully native 64-bit UI carbon application."

Not to be picky, but that applies to both Carbon (extra pickyness: capital C) *and* Cocoa applications. Both are frameworks that allow development of OS X applications, most of which probably use Cocoa (Carbon is mostly for OS 9 compatibility) ... which is the only reason I'm bringing this up.

Regardless, this is good news, as I've previously heard people say it would be impossible to make such a smooth transition (and makes me wonder, why can't Windows handle this transition so smoothly?).

"(and makes me wonder, why can't Windows handle this transition so smoothly?)."

My guess would be an institutional/managerial reluctance at Microsoft to tamper with anything that might have to do with backwards compatibility. Personally, I think that's the albatross around Windows' neck, and they need to seriously consider deprioritizing (not dumping completely) backwards compatibility in the post-Vista OS.

Nothing like an apple news post on betanews. All the M$ homers come out of the woodwork like termites.

I, for one, am not an "M$ homer."

But I can smell PR BS a mile away no matter who it comes from; Microsoft, or Apple.

Isn't PR BS kind of the norm on a site like this? After all, it's a site focusing on new software.

WTF is a "homer"? I do not consider myself a MS follower/fanboy/whatever (although I am sure many Mac Zealots would disagree), I am just allergic to BS this blatantly obvious.

You can promote your product without BS'ing.

Google, for the most part, does a good job of this (IMO). They don't try to say their software or services are something they aren't.

Nah, they all BS; that's what they hire PR firms for. Google has done it, too.

"WTF is a "homer"?"

A person who roots for their home team and out of blind fandom elevates them above all other competition. You do follow sports, right?

While the term is being used improperly in this case, the point being made is that the people complaining in these replies are all Windows users insulting a non-Windows OS.

You do follow sports, right?

Nope, can't say I do, never seen the point in watching a game where I don't know any of the players personally.

...the point being made is that the people complaining in these replies are all Windows users insulting a non-Windows OS.
I'd say we're insulting the Apple marketing and snideness more than the Mac OS itself.

Wait -- I thought Leopard was going to be delievered by the end of the year. Now it is "slated" to ship in final form next spring?

No acknowledgement on that score in this article...hmmm

You would be wrong. Leopard was never given a release date--Jobs only said that it would be "out in time to compete with Vista." Spring is about right.

He could be right.

He could be wrong.

You may be right.

I may be crazy.

I am *not* the lunatic you're looking for. ;)

(Sorry, couldn't resist. Billy Joel playing in the background.)

Jokingly calling it Vista 2.0, Jobs said he couldn't reveal all of the new features or else they would be "photocopied."

Or there just aren't anymore...

What a load of BS.

"Ooooh... Look! I have a Notes folder in my Inbox now."

You're just kind of a grouch, huh? Not getting any lately?

That was mature. Anything to say about the *article*?

Nope, the article was fine, it's YOU I was concerned about. Cheer up!

Doubtful, he's probably just propositioning you.

lol, probebly right on that one.

"Not getting any lately?"
NOT GETTING ANY WHAT? You need some sleep.

Wince can do far better than that on his own, he doesn't need your lame idea of help.

Not doing it for him, just getting brought down to your level.

Never argue with an idiot. They'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

Never argue with me. I'll drag you down to my level and beat you with a bat. ;)

Never argue with an idiot. They'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
Yeah, I got trolled; but sometimes its fun, like a FPS. Doesn't require alot of thought, gets your adrenaline pumping, and is a productive way to vent seeing as on a rare occasion they actually realize they cannot win.

Never argue with me. I'll drag you down to my level and beat you with a bat. ;)
Poor flying rodent, I am calling PETA on you.

"Or there just aren't anymore..."

Yes, an unreleased OS whose planned feature set was never made public has suffered serious setbacks and is now being dramatically pared down to the point where its vendor is promoting a marginal featureset in non-OS applications as a major selling point.

So either you have a secret source and obtained the design documents for Leopard prior to your post, or you're just spouting nonsense enabled by the relative anonymity of the internet.

Go away.

ROFL! Way to come in the backdoor after the fray big man. Weak!

ROFLMAO!

Dude, it was a joke. Deal. It was directed at no-one.

Someone run over your puppy this morning?

Um...
Er....

The wooden, 'Lousiville Slugger' kind, not the flying vampyric kind. :p

Umm... in case you didn't notice, my post was a *speculation*. I thought that was pretty clear since no one assumed that I KNEW that for a fact. That would be absolutely absurd to assert that, as you yourself said.

Settle down there, sparky. Try to enjoy life.

Go away.

Even though you are very persuasive with your non-biased viewpoint, I think I'll stay. Thanks anyway.

The wooden, 'Lousiville Slugger' kind, not the flying vampyric kind. :p
Sure, sure, if you say so, I think you just don't want me to call PETA.

lmao..

Reminds me of a game I ran across a while ago.

Star Warped.

One of the challenges was to knock an Ewok off a bridge with a swinging log. The guys in the background, if you got a decent score, would threaten to report you to the PETFC (People For The Ethical Treatment of Fictional Characters).

I just read that now...

...perhaps you had to be there. It was funny as hell at the time.

Trust me. ;)

"in case you didn't notice, my post was a *speculation*."

So "what a load of BS" is now speculative? Seems pretty declarative to me.

Oh excuse me. I forgot to add the all important universal I-have-to-spell-this-out-to-everyone-because-they're-too-dumb-to-comprehend-implication disclaimer: In my opinion.

Since everyone on here knows I must know EVERYTHING for a fact right? The comment was a speculation and opinion about what I thought the PR crap really meant. No. I don't know it for a fact. I think we've established that. Can we move on now? Allllrighty then.

Leopard shows us what life will look like in the Vista timeframe and once again, Apple has taken a leap over what Microsoft will deliver,"

Please, do tell. What is this 'leap' you speak of?

iChat? Meet any other chat program in existance. Nice to see you catch up with us.

TimeMachine? Meet Shadow Copy. Only took you a few "updates" to reach what we had back when 2k3 was released.

Can't wait to see what else they've got in store for us in the coming weeks.

A striking innovation in the use of flash media to speed up the system, perhaps? Support for next-gen games, maybe? Oh! I know! They're going to introduce an animated helper that looks like a paper-clip!

Too rich.

*dons flameproof suit*

This oughtta be good...

ahHAHah Sarcasm at its finest ....

great post Mr. PC_Tool - it outta shut some mac fanboys up

That's no fun. I don't want 'em to shut up. I wanna get 'em going and watch 'em spin.

Mac forums are probably my one true vice. it'sd just so damned entertaining to watch 'em get all flustered and uppity. Absolutely irresistable.

Much as how I'd imagine a pile of tribbles might react when faced with a commercial air-horn set off within inches of them.

Oh! I know! They're going to introduce an animated helper that looks like a paper-clip!

ROFL

Nice one. I remember that stupid paperclip.

"I wanna get 'em going and watch 'em spin."

Kinda like you get all pissed when someone talks bad about Micro$oft?

yeah, kinda like that.

It's even better watching you, you get yourself 'going' to get in a 'spin' all by yourself. Quite comical.

Yup, I love reading PC_Tool's posts. Always interesting and true.(usually)

Heh.. If you say so.

lmao.

I don't think I've ever gotten "pissed" here.

I do tend to vehemently defend copyright and avail would-be pirates of their misinformation and lame-ass justifications, but MS?

Nah. Just the facts. Nothing there to get "pissed" about.

I love pc_tool as well. He's usually talks nonsense, which gives me the opportunity to flame away at will. Especially on MacOSX topics, because he is blissfully unaware of the inferiority of windows compared to OSX.
I'm a true Mac fanboy, but I must say that Leopard is not revolutionary. HTML mail is way overdue, outlook express has had mail templates since windows 98, OSX should have had a backup program since it came out. I would rather some improvements in Spotlight.
And now for pc_tool: Get a way st*p*d m*r*n, windows is inferior, OSX is better and you know it. Now go away! :)

Ahh... I see my plan worked.

Nice to see ya. Gotta lure you out from under that rock once in a while. ;)

the inferiority of windows compared to OSX. ...HTML mail is way overdue, outlook express has had mail templates since windows 98, OSX should have had a backup program since it came out...OSX is better...

Good job at supporting your arguments, no wonder you use a Mac.

lmao...

dang...

Got to agree with you on this one. The pirates that use lame excuses to try to justify it are just about the only thing that get me angry on here.

"Braille and closed caption support has been added"

Braille? How?

3D computer screens, well I never...

And yes, Time Machine is going to be a waste of space since Macs don't crash *hohoho* why would you need to have backups? Isn't the key thing about computers 'Don't delete what you want to keep'? Do you really want a 4 gig backup file just to find one little mp3 you accidently deleted?

And yeah, it does sound like they copied Microsoft, but I'll need more detail on it before making that assumption.

"Braille? How?"

I think they mean Braille translation for people who want to make Braille signs.

"why would you need to have backups?"

Hard disk failure, perhaps? Happens to everyone. Macs don't use special failure-resistant hard drives.

"Do you really want a 4 gig backup file just to find one little mp3 you accidently deleted?"

Why not? It IS a backup feature. This feature, with more or less the exact same implementation, will start appearing in other OSes, and it will be a damn good thing. It's about time someone figured out a way to use skyrocketing storage space for things besides more porn.

Hard disk failure, perhaps? Happens to everyone. Macs don't use special failure-resistant hard drives.
And how exactly a backup ON a failed harddrive helpful?

This feature, with more or less the exact same implementation, will start appearing in other OSes
Because we know Windows XP has nothing at all similar to this, and hasn't for years, right?

It's about time someone figured out a way to use skyrocketing storage space for things besides more porn.
Nooooo, porn is the internet's jello, there must always be room for more.

"And how exactly a backup ON a failed harddrive helpful?"

Perhaps by including a second hard drive by default on systems that have the room, or allowing backups to be made to a network server via wireless? Perhaps Apple will even start selling wireless storage boxes priced for home users around the time of Leopard's release. There are quite a few options here.

"Because we know Windows XP has nothing at all similar to this, and hasn't for years, right?"

XP will perform backup of the scale and type Leopard will? Since WHEN?

"Nooooo, porn is the internet's jello, there must always be room for more."

I don't know, lately the internet has been for memes, not porn...

"Perhaps by including a second hard drive..."

By Golly, thats an ingenious idea. I dont think Grazer has ever heard of that idea before.

Perhaps... Perhaps... There are quite a few option here. I would call them more possiblities, not options.

XP will perform backup of the scale and type Leopard will? Since WHEN?
I'm not sure if there is anything bundled with XP that would do that; but there are third party solutions; and I would rather "simply drag files and folders to another drive" where I know they are safe (actually I use high compression archival formats; but that is besides the point).

I don't know, lately the internet has been for memes, not porn...
Well then, someone needs to do something about that :)

P.S. I know cables can be a hassle, but what is the obsession with wireless everything. (Yes, apple could offer external storage devices...or we could just use the external storage devices already in stores, many of which come with backup software.)

No, a person like myself with 3 internal hard drives, a couple externals, and network storage has isn't likely to have heard of "second" hard drives. Have anything to contribute, or just trolling?

LMAO! Okay, okay. Dude, we get it. The argument to end all arguments; anyone who disagrees with you is a troll. Stop acting like you invented something new.

LMAO! Okay, okay. Dude, we get it. The argument to end all arguments; anyone who disagrees with you is a troll. Stop acting like you invented something new.

Actually, originally I was going to liken him to you, but I figured trolling was less of an insult, especially when I figured he was just being a smarta$$.

I am acting like I invented something? Really? Where?

Notice how I do not call others that constructivly disagree with me trolls? I have even been known to admit when I am wrong.
But if you feel like giving up because you cannot actually participate in an intelligent and coherent discussion like I ask of people who respond to my posts I won't be offended.

"I am acting like I invented something? Really? Where?"

Yes. Here. Now.

Calling someone a troll doesn't make your argument right or theirs wrong. Nor does using $ instead of s. That really is so last century! Catch up, man. You want to discount an argument with an ad hominem, at least use the new standard: fanboy!

I can't discount your argument and call you a troll at the same time? As for "fanboy", I could only use that if I knew for sure your were one. So far, you've just shown yourself to be looking to argue, not to actually favor a particular side.

I don't use words like those to back up my argument, I just call 'em like I see 'em. '$' is cheese when someone uses it for non-filtered/censored words. I think it is still perfectly legitimate when used as personal sensorship.

And you still haven't said what you think I think I am inventing, but then again I didn't ask. So kudos to you for still not contributing anything.

You got one thing right, I don't favor either product. I find both useful and see that both have shortcomings. That's why I so joyously jumped on your one-sided claims. And no, I wasn't looking to argue; we aren't arguing really, are we?

Seriously, though, the whole "$" thing just makes you look silly and desperate. I'd avoid it. As far as what you invented, your last comment seemed to indicate that you got that. Go ahead, review. It will come to you.

That's why I so joyously jumped on your one-sided claims.

I made claims? I was just expressing my opinions and my own admittedly limited experience, and you jump on my back for providing an honest description of my background as it relates to the stated opinion. Apparently, you think that unless someone has thorough experience, that their experiences and opinions are worthless? If you were familiar with my posts in other threads since I have been here you would know that I actually agree with you that most major OSes have there strengths and weaknesses, making them better or worse for particular purposes.

we aren't arguing really, are we?
You know, the word "argue" has to be one of the most misunderstood words. Most people seem to think it automatically implies fighting, when it doesn't.

Seriously, though, the whole "$" thing just makes you look silly and desperate
Apparently, either you still are unable to distinguish between the commonly used filter circumvention of substituting '$' for 's', or I have failed to see how much anti-MS fanboy's have tainted the '$' into infamy.

As far as what you invented, your last comment seemed to indicate that you got that. Go ahead, review. It will come to you.
So, is this you admitting you were just saying whatever came to mind with nothing to back it up and nothing really to say? Because it seems like you either don't know what you thought I thought I invented, or had that assumption completely disproven in one of my responses and are now afraid to eat your words. Don't worry, no one whose opinion you should care about will think less of you for admitting you're wrong; in fact, it might improve some people's opinions of you.

Wow, you were still at this? Sorry man, I found something better to do.

I found something better to do.
Apparently not...and you still have added nothing.

"Actually, originally I was going to liken him to you, but I figured trolling was less of an insult, especially when I figured he was just being a smarta$$."

Yes I was. ;p

Hard disk failure, perhaps? Happens to everyone. Macs don't use special failure-resistant hard drives.

If that's the case, then why didn't Apple build a backup program into the OS from day 1, instead of trying to gouge $99 a year from their loyal users?

So, Betanews doesn't like a preview of end user-oriented features in an operating system none of them use anyway.

Why am I not surprised?

It is not the preview we mind, it is the always present undeserved smugness of the article, and its false claims that bug us.

What exactly is false, smug, and undeserved about anything in this article?

The smugness is undeserved, and you got me, technically there are probably no fallacies in the article...just plenty misleading statements like the recent mac ads. You know, like Windows not having iLife is an attempt to imply Windows has no messaging software and no media playback software, and how they try to imply Macs have more compatible hardware by saying they work with a new camera only avaiible in Japan. Or implying Windows crashes so often it is impossible to get anything done. I swear, WinME didn't crash on me as much as they try to imply WinXP does with those commercials...and WinME was worse than Win95.

"just plenty misleading statements like the recent mac ads. You know, like Windows not having iLife is an attempt to imply Windows has no messaging software and no media playback software"

This article isn't about Apple's advertising, it's about Jobs' presentation at WWDC. If you're ticked at the Mac ads, that's fine--but why allow that to influence your opinion of a factual writeup of a presentation?

"and how they try to imply Macs have more compatible hardware by saying they work with a new camera only avaiible in Japan."

The point of that commercial was showing off OS X's largely seamless device connectivity, be it to another computer or with a new piece of hardware that supports OS X. That's one of the only commercials I liked--mainly because I went through an utterly ridiculous installation process on XP just to get a Nikon digicam recognized. So I might be biased here.

"Or implying Windows crashes so often it is impossible to get anything done."

They were implying that Windows crashes at inopportune times, not all the time. And I don't think there's anyone here who hasn't had Windows crash at critical momemnts for them.

So, again; how does your dislike of the Mac ads relate to a supposedly bad article on Betanews?

So, again; how does your dislike of the Mac ads relate to a supposedly bad article on Betanews?
You asked what I thought was smug, underserving, and false about the article. Basically what I disliked about it, and I answered. It is in many ways like the Mac commercials, that is why I dislike it and how my previous post relates to this article.

I don't have a whole lot of experience with digital cameras, but all I had to do to "set up" my parents' in WinXP when I was visiting them was to plug it into the usb port. It really was that simple.

Huh? Where do you get these "implications" from? The Mac commercials make no more outrageous claims than any other company, including Microsoft, however, some of what you are getting from them appears to have germinated in some dark remote (possibly abandoned) corner of your mind. Must be that sensitive "softie" part.

"you got me, technically there are probably no fallacies in the article"

and

"I don't have a whole lot of experience with digital cameras"

Okay, so based on your vast experience and careful reading of the article, we should take WHAT away from your comments???

That other posters, especially those that have nothing of their own to contribute, like quoting me out of context :)

But we can't really expect much from trolls whose screen names describe oddly textured excrement.

I think you may be misusing "out of context." Oh, and if you don't want people to comment on your comments, you may want to avoid forums, especially this one. ;o)

The words pouring out of mr. jobs mouth.

I think need a better understanding of what "out of context" means. Because, technically, even if omitting parts of my post didn't change the overall meaning, it would still be out of context. I have no problem with people responding to my comments, when they are responding to my comments and not just a few sentences out of context.

The Mac commercials make no more outrageous claims than any other company, including Microsoft...
The problem is that Mac commercials make very few direct claims at all, it is how they avoid getting in trouble for false advertisement. I really haven't seen that many different MS commercials, most just show you what you can do with the software availible for a Windows based machine. They do not try to imply you cannot do the same on a Mac. In fact, they make no mention of Macs at all. MS doesn't have the desperate need to compare Windows to MacOS, like Apple seems to have. If you don't perceive the implications made by the Mac commercials perhaps you should try to hone the part of your brain responsible for reading between the lines, well already know you have difficulties with context.

Okay, first of all, you mentioned an implication that was never made in any Mac commercial, only imagined by you. And of course Apple is going to make more agressive comparisons; duh, they have the lower user base and are trying to convince people to switch to their prodcut. That doesn't make their claims outrageous or unfounded and only a diehard fanboy would think they were.

BTW, if you are going to try to insult me, at least try to be clever about it. Makes it more fun for everyone.

The quoted text was intended to use your own words to demonstrate a lack of accuracy and experience related to areas on which you commented. This was done precisely, surgically and, apparently, painfully. You'll get over it, really, you will.

BTW, if you are going to try to insult me, at least try to be clever about it. Makes it more fun for everyone.

I am doing my best; but your intelligent, well thought out, impeccably structured arguments are just too much for me to compete with.

Well, I've worked with one camera before too. Surely that makes me better than a PC, after all I am just as good as a Mac.

Thanks. Now, you're catching on.

Thanks. Now, you're catching on.
Apparently...you aren't.

You have a good evening now, okay. ;o)

{-1}

Prove it!

Humm, TimeMachine.... Sounds just like Shadow Copy, which made its first apperance in Windows Server 2003 and will be fully intergated into Vista.

As for iChat, oh yay yet another thing to distract me while I try to type in IM.

As for iChat, oh yay yet another thing to distract me while I try to type in IM.

this is pretty much the type of people that buy Macs ... users that dont know any better than to be chatting all day ....
they NEED these improvements in the software ...
trust me ... the last thing you want is your mac crashing while talking to the hot blonde across the world ....

"this is pretty much the type of people that buy Macs ... users that dont know any better than to be chatting all day .... "

You could not be more wrong if you tried. You might as well say that OS X only appeals to alien beings.

Very cool - I must tell all my friends who have been running XP Home that they made a mistake and they really should have been running Windows Server 2003

Sigh.

--->Sounds just like Shadow Copy, which made its first apperance in Windows Server 2003

Before you dismiss the Mac, go read a copy of "Mac OS X Internals: A Systems Approach" by Singh. Independent of the eye-candy (which is how many people make decisions as Jobs well knows), OS X is an extremely sophisticated engine....in some sense it has the best of Linux, MS Windows and Mac UI in one package.

I think you replied to the wrong person.

You're right, though--it seems not many people here understand the value of the G part of the GUI.

Everyone that I know who owns a mac is always uses it for chatting purposes.

So, if Microsoft invents something with Windows Server 2003, and later includes it in the next consumer OS, and in between Apple implements the same thing into Leopard (though a bit pimped up), that's okay for you? You're not crying "copycat" here?
double standards!

Sounds like.... but have you seen it (Time Machine) or are you making assumptions?

for time machine, god knows how much disk space will it need, and several years late than win XP's system restore, maybe in leopard, its more fashion, and easy to use, but, lol, not that nice

Comparing a backup solution to System Restore..... no comment!
As for Time Machine, have you seen it in action? because I do not understand how you can say "not that nice", are you saying System Restore looks nicer? ...

sounds more like a bloated patch rather than a OS upgrade .....
but i guess it goes to show what kind of people buy macs ....
they'll believe anything

"sounds more like a bloated patch rather than a OS upgrade ....."

Awww....now you're just copying the Vista comments.

Yah LOL. Very true.

And you would know? Have you ever used a Mac? Do you have a listing of all the "under-the-hood" OS improvements and fixes? Have you seen videos of some of the new features in action such as Spaces and Time Machine? And technically aren't all upgrades "patches"? Do you expect the OS to be rewritten from scratch each time? Also, the usability and user interface of Time Machine is a lot better than anything Microsoft currently offers (for all of you saying that "Windows has this feature already", and sadly I have used Vista and the graphical effects and colour scheme do look similiar which is what Apple said. *waits for flames*

I only have one comment: Any time s***ing application that I use does not NEED to have a pretty Mac or Vista interface. What it NEEDS to do is work properly, which not a single OS has truly gotten right yet. I don't care if it's a listbox on a property sheet in windows or of Time Machine on Mac. When there is finally a true, OS level snapshot application in place, someone let me know.

The only thing that I have seen come close is Drive Snapshot (http://www.drivesnapshot.de/en/) which takes a snapshot of my partition, creates a hash of it and makes a nice diff image of my partition.

~dnc

"Lots of features like iChat and TimeMachine that simply won't be something you can get in Vista," Gartenberg added

Man, this guy must be the biggest shill. Perhaps MS should start advertising how Mac's don't have Windows Messenger and System Restore.

I completely agree. I read through the article and said "so what?" There's nothing new or innovative here. You can send html in Apple Mail now? WTF? How crappy is this software currently? iChat has animated icons? Are you serious?

I like Macs but this update is pathedic. As Grazer pointed out, this Gartenberg fellow is a complete tool.

uh....

What's wrong with being a tool? ;)

lol, talking behind a tool's back and he found out...

This update is pathetic? You have researched all the changes to the OS have you? You have seen the videos of Time Machine, Spaces and iChat in action I take it? There will never be a shortage of Queens :-)
I never quite understood this b****ing mentality myself!

Very poor upgrade, imho.

The only one new thing is Time Machine but it's the same that Vista already had for a long time (Apple should stop to blame MS for copying since there are acting the same).

Vista already had for a long time

Neat trick since it's not even *out* yet...

TimeMachine screenshot from 2003.

http://picasaweb.google....oto#4960654449326096402

lmao...

Virus, spyware, trojan ...

I rest my case.

And one more thing ...

I'm reading all this debate about vista has this, osx has that, vista is better is this, osx is worse in that ...

The only thing i'm not getting in all this discussion is:

Where is Vista? Somewhere lost in a TimeMachine?

What case would that be?

Uh..

Where's Leopard?

K, thanks. Bye!

Oh dear what a shame so now I am expected to go out and buy a Mac? Can a Mac run my extensive games collection :P no, "photocopied", those arrogant ****s need to be sorted out...........