Point taken. Don't upgrade the firmware and your fine... Seems logical to me. when the upgrade is out there and only a hand full of people use it is it really an upgrade? Probably not...

Point is Apple knew this was going to happen from the beginning... they suckered people into a licence with At&T when in all reality it was not needed. But Apple needed the extra revenue to justify it. In the end. Its just a phone toy... And if Apple wants to continue to sell them in the future they will eventually have to make it more universal. Maybe a cheap version with AT&T and a somewhat more expensive version that works on whatever you want. In the end they will not have a choice. Otherwise anything they have planned for the phone will basically not be generally accepted by those that demand said choice for their purchased product. BTW WTF with eh whole refund BS... I would have gladly let apple keep that if they would have provided a legitimate way to choose your own provider. I'm sure almost the entire consumer pool would have done the same...

With any sort of firmware hacking, you take a risk and it really isn't the responsibility of the manufacturer to help you. But it's nice when they do :) Funny part is i hear that users who hack their iPods firmware are still covered under the warranty if that bricks (which appears to be very hard to do!) As long as they don't physically open the unit itself, they're fine. Anyone verify this?

ok look beyond you Apple/MS fan/hate boys, and look at something more important then Apple/AT&T locking the phone. "Among our other outstanding questions is whether either party would concede that an iPhone purchaser constitutes a rightful iPhone owner under US law." That's just wrong. If the purchaser constitutes a rightful owner? What is this world coming to?

I would contend that they own the device, but not the connectivity or software that comes with it.

Thus, if they alter either of the latter two, any updates to them, and the consequences of applying those updates, are on their own heads and that they have no rightful claim against Apple should they apply them and brick their phone. :)

So they violate the warranty, but it should stop there. Apple doesn't have an more right to turn a $600 phone into a $600 paper weight because some kid altered it then MS has a right to turn my computer into a paper weight because I 'enhance' the registry

If they try that kind of thing here in the UK, they will be breaking the law. It is illegal for a company NOT to unlock a phone if the subscriber has had an account with the mobile phone company for twelve months.

In the UK, it doesn't matter how long you have had the phone, just that you have been a customer for twelve months.

Toolie defends Microsoft, no matter how much they lie and cheat. Now he's the 'great defender' of Apple. I hope you're not shilling for free, toolie, because every word you write is a gutbusting belly laugh for all the dishonest folks out there pushing specious arguments. Corporations are always right in toolie's mind.

Toolie's arguments are actually the defining belief of the shill, and it is as intellectually corrupt as an argument can ever get.

How cute.

He really likes me...

Did you actually have anything to add tot he topic and simply forgot in your gushing, or were you just trying to brighten my day?

It's like having a virtual puppy, only more pointless and annoying.

The real reasons they're giving:

You'll go blind.
You'll grow hair on your knuckles.
You'll cause your parents to have heart attacks.
You'll marry a goat.

Reason number one why ill stick with Nokia...

Gah.

To each their own, I suppose. :p

This may be legal, but it's absolutely anti-consumer. It creates a monopoly where none need exist. The model works in Europe. Let's force openness in the market.

I have little sympathy for those who hack and then brick; if you hack, you know what you're in for, and at least Apple warned everyone. It shouldn't be legal to brick, but they have the right to block you from updates. So be it.

Let's see Congress do something FOR consumers once, and open up mobile phone usage!

Let's see Congress do something FOR consumers once, and open up mobile phone usage!

???

Does this really affect you that much? I can walk into any Verizon store and get a decent phone, Or...I can walk into any AT&T store and get a decent phone. Or...on and on.

Monopoly??? What are you smoking, man?

Don't forget Al Gore is a board member at Apple. Also, Apple might not replace the battery for $80 if you hack it.

A monopoly???

Phones should be portable across providers assuming that the protocols are compatible.

But a monopoly???

I can just see it now. Toyota charged with monopolistic practices as you can only buy Toyota models from a Toyota dealer! Oh my!

I think they would, considering they'd still be making money off of you.

True enough. Still not a problem. Send 'em back the borked phone and a sign with a note:

"You paid $600 for a product you didn't like, broke it, and voided your warranty.

Here's your sign."

I foresee a severe shortage in signage materials...

Sad but true...

If Apple sold good versions of every type of software that people might want/need to use on their iPhone at a reasonable price and if AT&T had perfect coverage everywhere, I might buy an iPhone.Neither is true so I won't.

Buying a iPhone and complaining about being locked into AT&T when you knew that would be the case before buying it is asinine.

Apple has no responsibility to make sure their upgrades work with any hacks. Now if it could be proven that they went out of their way to make an upgrade brick a hacked phone then you might have a legitimate gripe but I don't see anyone ever being able to prove it.

Am I the only person who automatically thought 'Ah ****, they're releasing another ****ing update to iTunes'?

Apple doesn't like you to open ANY of their products. They want you to pay a tech instead. Plus, most of their products are disposable now anyways. Send your iPod in to get repaired and they will send you back a new one.

Do you think it's funny that Apple takes the stance of DO NOT ALTER THE FIRMWARE yet they are so willing to allow Mac users to install Windows XP on their macs with BootCamp.
Also anyone else wonder why Apple encrypted the firmware in their new 6G iPods and 2G/3G Nanos?

Locked phones in the US is just one reason why Cell Phones service in Europe is so much damn better. If i'm not mistaken all cell phones in Europe are unlocked so a user can choose whatever service they want. Just like Broadband and DSL here. Most cases any modem will do.

Hmmm... Apple seems to be making a lot of friends with its iPhone these days. Imagine how many friends they'll make if their firmware update this week does turn their legitimate customers' phones into $400-$600 paperweights.

All unlocking the phone does is alter the firmware to overlook the SIM lock. There is no way that should interfere with any capabilities whatsoever, much less kill the phone, unless it's just a bad hack. And in that case, I hope no one actually paid for that unlocking hack.

I can't imagine why anyone would want to unlock it for another network anyway. Do even half of the functions work on other services?

Heh...

Once they've messed with it in direct violation of the terms under which it was sold, they are no longer "legitimate customers".

I guess. I wonder also: Will the unlocked phones even receive the firmware update if they're not on AT&T? I mean, is Apple going to push the update on all the other services too, just in case someone unlocked their phone and is on it? That would just be out of spite.

Suppose you want to travel from the US to Europe where GSM is the main service ---- you'd like to still have phone service without paying roaming charges....and the email will still work if you're near a wifi connection.

--->Do even half of the functions work on other services?

I think you have to connect to iTune to get the update.

Here's a suggestion sure to confuse you:

If you do not like the product with its stipulated usage policies, DON'T BUY IT.

On the other hand, why is there SUCH A LACK of support for making all cell phones open? The silence is deafening. But then they are probably still whining over how they have the right to steal MP3s...

Bingo.

But then they are probably still whining over how they have the right to steal MP3s...

*laughing*

That was awesome. Thank you.

Good.

You bought a product tied to a specific service. If you don't like the service, you could have chosen to purchase a product that works with that service. You messed with it, and now Apple is telling you that it's updates may very well render it unusable.

Gee, perhaps you'll remember this the next time you spend $600 on a product you don't like...

Flame on.

this is the thing, i just can't understand how is it leagly possible to lock a product to service like apple did. somehow i was under impression that there is law against bundling unwanted services.
i guess with enough money everything is possible.

but anyways, from the numbers iphone (and the rest i___ fill in the blank) is selling though it looks that people are actually enjoying being abused.

They designed the hardware, they can do whatever they want, they do it with their pcs already, so why not the phones.

Absolutely.

Personally I think Everyone should dump their providers until all phones are available in unlocked form.

And I am rather shocked that this has not happened in the last 20 years by all of the 'oh so bothered' folks who continuously whine and complain!

But hey, if you still choose to buy them in the current form, you am agreeing to the current policies and procedures.

Enjoy.

It is not just Apple and AT&T. Can you go into a Verizon Wireless store, buy a phone, and run it on AT&T's network?

I don't think they will even let you out of the store without activating it

well, when you buy a car , the manufacturer cannot obligate you to use only one fuel brand even though they built the "hardware" as you say.
same here, i don't see how phone manufacturer can dictate (legaly, not technically) what network their device is on.

Because of the simple fact that it was designed for AT&T's service. Several functions will not work with any service other than AT&T.

Sure, they could probably have worked around that with some additional dev, but that increases cost and decreases reliability/stability (they can't test every situation and every network).

Look, I don't like the AT&T lock-in. For that reason, I will not be buying an iPhone. It's that simple. When I can get the MiniOne with Verizon, I'll be set.

They can do it because that is what it was designed for. It's less like the car/gas analogy and more like the outlook/exchange situation. Microsoft *could* have legally limited Outlook to operate in only exchange environments so that it would never function in the reduced functionality mode you get on a POP3 or IMAP connection.

But then they have a commercial interest that the iPhone is not unlocked, we can't trust them to be impartial on this.

Apple seems to be forgetting who are their customers.
This is quite disturbing.

Yeah AT&T is their number 1 customer. They have paid Apple more then me or you.

I think this is a perfect example of why Apple will never be more than a niche market provider. They just don't seem to get it.

There is a whole world of people out there that don't like having to be pigeonholed into any one solution. IBM learned that the hard way with their PS/2 systems. Compaq finally saw the light and started using off the shelf products for the desktops.

They say that those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

except Apple is selling products like hot cakes. They own the MP3 player market. The iPhone continues to sell very well and is poised to enter the European market.

Even their computers have seen growth. I am going to be getting a Macbook Pro when Leopard comes out.

It's commonplace for phone manufacturers to lock their phones into certain carriers. This is nothing new.

Gee, my unlocked, application unlocked Blackjack, running Windows Mobile 5, doesn't seem to have any issues, even with the plethora of 3rd party apps that I have installed on it.

Apple's biggest failing has always been their desire to lock down their software and hardware, stifiling the ability for anyone other than Apple itself and its hand-picked circle of other vendors to make their products more useful. Sad to see they just never seem to learn.

Indeed -- doing this is the equivalent of {insert major PC manufacturer} rendering a computer inoperable for installing something like LabVIEW, MATLAB, or some other specialty program you need for your profession. This is more ammunition for me to say that the iPhone is defective by design -- Apple and AT&T are intentionally preventing users from making the iPhone fit the users' needs. I, for one, do not buy stuff that actively keeps me from making it useful to me.

I have been using apple for years . And am now using an unlocked apple phone and love it . But if apple attempt to lock the phone with an upgrape they are going to start loosing there core audience . I will never buy another apple product .They are just getting rediculous and arrogant . They shouldnt underestimate the power of the consumer .Im ready to accept that my warranty is invalid that should be the punishment of unlocking an iphone and thats it.

"But if apple attempt to lock the phone with an upgrape they are going to start loosing there core audience...."

They're not locking the phone upon upgrade, they're warning that the firmware change MAY brick your phone due to the modified software you put on there. They could have just stayed quiet if they wanted to be pricks about it...