Now *that* is "Apple Hardware" in action. ;)

Seriously, Apple needs to stop selling cheap crap! There's a report somewhere (I don't have a link to it) that shows Apple mark up all of their products by 300% of the actual manufacturing cost. Three-hundred percent, people; that's 3 times the actual cost to make the product! Apple doesn't seem to allow their retailers to put any of their products on sale either. So, if you go to Best Buy or try to buy it online from other stores (other than the Apple store), the prices will be exactly the same as on Apple's site.

I understand that they're trying to make products to target the rich and wealthy, but come on... At least, make quality products...

300% is the typical markup over total manufacturing and marketing costs for ALL electronics and has been for years!

Yeah, Apple has let itself down in so many ways with the iPhone. Don't let me hear complaints about MS bloatware now Apple needs 237Mb to update an iPhone and can't deal with a broken download. Design is a wonderful thing but devices that work are actually more important.

I was in our local Apple store no less than two or three hours ago. It was filled with the saddest bunch of losers you could imagine who looked like they barely had enough gas money to pick up thier own paychecks.

I also found out the new Nano will not work with some existing direct connect / control devices, namely Alpine and Kenwood stereos. Nice.

What's an inbred die hard M$ fanboy like yourself doing in an Apple store? You've stated numerous times how much you hate Apple products like your iPod and yet where were you "no less than two or three hours ago."? An Apple store! LOL.

You also claim California is the armpit of America yet you go by the username of the most famous city in California!

You've lost all credibility. This is exactly the reason why incest should stop being practiced, it's produces retards like yourself.

First of all, I had no credibility to lose. Second of all, my little daughter wanted to go in because she saw Lego Star Wars on one of the gargantuan, overpriced monitors.

The funny part is, after we left, I promptly went to Game Stop and bought the game for the 360.

Your desperation and frustration is showing in the new MS commercial thread.

I got this nickname because I was working for a company a while back when I was offered a trip to Hollywood to be interviewed as a software subcontractor.

I made up some story why I suddenly had to leave town for three days. When I got back, I put in my two weeks and told everyone where I was.

The name stuck and now everyone calls me Hollywood. What an honor. I prefer being called douchebag myself.

Perhaps he was looking at a MAC.

"First of all, I had no credibility to lose."

Truer words were never printed.

"First of all, I had no credibility to lose."

Truer words were never printed.

neat! A double post where one is listed as original and the other as edited...

How did you drive your car into the store to test the stereo with the new iPod nano?

How shocking!

Awwwww... It didnt just work?

something that cute can shock you?? and only 3 weeks to get a new one shipped out.. the shock is that they used USB and didn't invent something else and call it better....

Ironically they did (along with TI) - its called Firewire, and unlike USB where you have no bandwidth management and you cannot determine what resource gets frozen out in high bandwidth environments, it can.

But then you are easily amazed.

BSU, just to take the piss.

3 weeks is a reasonable timeframe to save their arses if it's delivered late.

At least they recalled them without needing to be sued first.

Though it doesn't deliver enough power itself, and has a crappier connector.

USB is the best connector I have come across thus far in computing for actually staying in its socket (other than power cords - thankfully).

Anyway, Firewire is Apple's brand name, but they didn't exactly invent it. It was made by a conglomerate of: Texas Instruments, Sony, Digital Equipment Corporation, IBM and another couple of smaller companies with (mainly) Apple's funding.

The fact that it can't deliver renough power itself is what holds it up as useless for me, anyway.

That and you can't BUS them (or tree them or whatever the phrase is).

Doesn't IEEE 1394 support up to 30 some odd devices chained together?

And USB something like 128 devices?

lol yet almost no one or any device uses firewire. how funny.

So 45 watts and 30 volts are not enough to power devices? That is the fault of the device design.

Firewire supports up to 63 devices, and it absolutely DOES support bus level tree topologies! Its fundamental!

And Firewire 800 runs significantly faster than USB2. And it can actually maintain a sustained throughput near its (actual 786Mbps) rating! Compare that to the more typical ~280Mbps of USB2! Add to that that the bus admins the interface and not the CPU and you have less overhead that results in USB seldom ever achieving much more than one half its rated capacity throughput.

And you can add as many devises as you like to USB up to its rated limit, but DON'T expect them to all work!

As soon as the bandwidth is reached - ie just add a scanner or web cam! - and watch the number of devices and processes that become starved - with no ability to define a hierarchy of which have greater priority! So paper specs look great for USB - reality is a far harsher mistress!

The only thing that put IEEE1394 at a disadvantage relative to USB was the initial stupid desire to charge a licensing fee. There is no licensing fee for Firewire.

And Firewire connectors are every bit as robust as USB connectors! Plus you can't inadvertently install them upside down like you can with USB connectors!

Where do you guys get this crap? Do you just make it up?

"Firewire supports up to 63 devices..."

Yep... all 63 of them!

"Plus you can't inadvertently install them upside down like you can with USB connectors!

Where do you guys get this crap? Do you just make it up?"

Crap indeed. I don't suppose you ever took the time to actually look inside one of those connectors.

Then again, I would guess not, since AIX USB support isn't what one would necessarily consider to be robust. ;)

"And Firewire 800 runs significantly faster than USB2"

Not for long. USB3 is much faster.

"And Firewire connectors are every bit as robust as USB connectors! Plus you can't inadvertently install them upside down like you can with USB connectors!"

If you managed to ham-fistedly put a USB connector in upside down (despite the fact it has a lug inside the connector that prevents it from going in the wrong way round), well done to you, but I think you need specialist help.

USB also has the amazing thing called backwards compatibility. That is a rare and brilliant thing.

16 daisy-chained is what I believe to be the number.

USB is 5 hubs worth, with a maximum cable distance of 25 metres, I think.

Firewire is impractical. Its also more expensive than USB. Its power requirements are higher than that of USB's.

Even Apple itself is ditching firewire in favor of USB.

16???

Yup, you've discovered the fountainhead of knowledge!

LOL!

LOL!

Have you ever attempted to attach 63 USB devices? Or for that matter, more than 5 or 6 concurrently? Of course not! One or more of the devices and processes will become starved for bandwidth! So aren't theoretical limits amazing - and worthless?

And BOTH buses are backwards compatible! So what? (aside from the fact that you didn't know that as you tried to make is a distinguishing feature!). But I guess your ignorance leads you to think that this is a point that adds to your credibility? Instead it simply adds to the list of issues about which you are clueless.

But you would know that if you actually ever tried it instead of your guessing here...of course some authorities think the max number of Firewire devices are 16...

And debating the internals of the connectors? LOL! Yes I am familiar with them, and neither are more or less robust! And NEITHER are intended to be torqued. But one can only imagine what someone here who complains about them is doing with them! ...But then those personal toys are usually battery powered if I am not mistaken...

And I have encountered quite a few problems where folks have inserted the larger format USB connectors upside down! And it is easy to do! So much for symmetrical connectors!

And AIX USB support??? What are you talking about? Oh, of course you have no clue! As both Firewire and USB are small small desktop buses totally out of their league in such complexes, not buses suitable for massively parallel or large scale server installations - but so much for your ignorant attempt to make some point that only succeeds in making it apparent that you haven't a clue!

At the 'higher' levels, If you had a clue, you would know that the Converged Enhanced Ethernet(CEE) standards (or you may have heard of it as Data Center Ethernet from the Cisco variant) will enable iSCSI to supplant FiberChannel (FCoE). Now why would they want to use an unreliable (look up how the word is used in networking peeps), contentious and slow technology like either Firewire or USB for critical data paths?

And pray tell, as the real world max sustained throughput that can be obtained in USB2 is ~280Mbps - and not the 480Mbps claimed, one can only guess what USB3's actual performance will be! But I am sure that you don't now that either. Its still slow and unreliable compared to more advanced available technology. And it has only taken them how many years to come up with a competitive USB format after Firewire800 was introduced commercially (by Apple ironically) in the spring of 2003? Almost 6 years????

And as to the cost issue that some have mentioned, the difference betwen FW and USB is pennies- just like the difference in cost between IDE and Sata.

Considering that almost all of your 'factual' information has been incorrect, and your emotional issues spurious - come back when you acquire a clue as to what you are talking about.

And both USB and Firewire are platform agnostic, with Firewire dominating installed integrated audio-video interfaces and USB dominating small scale peripheral devices. But it is hilarious to watch you idiots turn USB and Firewire into a fanboy debate instead of simple alternatives with their various merits complimenting each other on the big world of desktops and games - of which you so ignorant - as displayed by your repeated erroneous statements.

LOL!

It's obvious you simply like to hear yourself talk, as you've now resorted to replying to yourself. Insecure much?

Blah blah blah...

So, you're a FireWire fanboy now? Jeez! Naturally, watching you try to spin this into a situation where *we* turn it into a fanboy debate was expected, as usual. You're the one who brought up FireWire in the first place... and the way you've proceeded to fanatically describe in great length its superiority over USB fits every commonly-accepted definition of the term "fanboy" out there, champ.

For someone who claims so fervently not to care about any of the products discussed in any of these articles, you sure do go through a lot of trouble to contradict yourself.

"Have you ever attempted to attach 63 USB devices? Or for that matter, more than 5 or 6 concurrently? Of course not! One or more of the devices and processes will become starved for bandwidth! So aren't theoretical limits amazing - and worthless?"

Have you ever attempted to attach 63 FireWire devices at the same time? Of course not! Aren't theoretical 63 FireWire consumer devices amazing? LOL!

Pretend all you like that FireWire has this magical supply of limitless bandwidth, unlike USB. Regardless of how bandwidth and devices are managed between the two, total available bandwidth is total available bandwidth... unless Steve Jobs has Leprechauns locked away in the bowels of Apple forcing them to make FireWire devices consume less bandwidth.

"And it has only taken them how many years to come up with a competitive USB format after Firewire800 was introduced commercially (by Apple ironically) in the spring of 2003? Almost 6 years????"

Nice. How about the 3 years it took for Apple to come up with a competitive FireWire standard after USB 2.0 was released in the Spring of 2000?

The way you choose to argue the differences between FireWire and USB is remarkably similar to the iPod vs Zune fanboy tripe that you claim to despise... you know, those insignificant little devices that utilize and rely on those very same small desktop buses.

"And debating the internals of the connectors? ...one can only imagine what someone here who complains about them is doing with them!"

Debating? Complaining? That would be you. So what exactly are you doing with them?

You're the one who brought up the "fact" that you could insert USB connectors upside down, "Professor", unlike FireWire. Perhaps you forgot that when you were arguing with your Mom while she was trying to fix your bib. If you've actually done that yourself, or known others who have, you obviously are accustomed to dealing with a completely different class of moron users than I am accustomed to (which would possibly help to explain your malignant narcissistic cynicism).

It sure is easy to get you going... LOL

I'll let you get back to your tapioca.

Wow, that seems like a very... wiki-esque description. Your supply of hypocrisy is virtually unlimited. LOL

I wish you'd make up your mind. FireWire is clearly the obvious choice... except for attaching portable devices which you claim are useless... oh, and transferring "critical" data. What does that leave for it? Digital video cameras! Wait... no, the majority of them now utilize USB instead.

Hmm... enjoy your FireWire keyboard, I suppose! That should offer plenty of maximum sustained bandwidth for people that type 800 WPM. ;)

You're an odd individual. You cheerlead the benefits of one desktop bus over another, yet jump at the opportunity to chastise anyone and everyone for their choice of devices they choose to use with it. What exactly does foxfyre's ideal world look like? What would you recommend for its uses (assuming everyone had a desk large enough for an ideal 63 devices living in Total Harmony™)? We'll compare that world to the one the rest of us lives in.

Have you seen a camcorder recently. They all have firewire (or whatever the company selling the camera wants to call it). Also hard drives work better with firewire.

You are indeed a complete idiot.

I merely mentioned IEEE1394 in response to an idiot who tried to make an interconnect format into a fanboy issue...despite the fact that Apple was instrumental in developing Firewire. And now you think that I champion one protocol over another?

Who cares, use the one that works - but USB DOES have a serious bandwidth issue where more than several devices (who cares about your absurd theoretical limit!) saturate the bandwidth and devies are frozen. Just add a scanner or digital camera or webcam or DAW I/O device! And you have no way to establish a priority hierarchy to say which device has priority! And Firewire is less subject to this. Deal with it!

And critical data would be that which cannot be easily replicated or recovered - not simple queries of data already gathered and archived!

They are both OK if your needs are low. If the needs are higher Firewire is often the better choice - as is obvious when you see that almost all A/V workstations and devices employ it.

And you complain that I correctly identified the number of attachable devices while your other fanboys cite the wrong figures multiple times and cite USB's theoretical capacity as an advantage! What a fool!

My ideal world? One devoid of idiot fanboys like you and the others that think an interface is important and who can't even get basic facts straight and who think whining about Apple is the answer - aside from demonstrating that you all act like you are in high school.

I don't care which format you use! I just wish you and the other idiots would stop misrepresenting things simply to make your emotional fanboy rant. And if you have still higher requirements - which I can't imagine you would, there are other more reliable higher speed formats.

But then you folks are so stupid that you are not even familiar with the technical aspects of something so basic as USB or IEEE1394!

And you think this is fanboy topic! You haven't a clue! LOL!

So much noise and not one single fact.

Go back to high school.

Dimwit Firewire400 was introduced in 1993!!!!!!!!!!! USB2's real world max transfer is around 280Mbps! The fact is it took the USB folks 7 years to come up with a format that came close to delivering throughputs theoretically close to IEEE1394. LOL!

You haven't a clue as to what you are talking about!

You haven't a clue. And I am very used to morons who use Windows and seem to think it is the greatest OS in the history of computing - which only tells us that you have experienced very few computing environments!

So much talk, so little knowledge! Its time for you to sit down HSboy.

"Dimwit Firewire400 was introduced in 1993!!!!!!!!!!!"

So Apple brought FireWire to the Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers (IEEE), hoping to make it a standard for Macintosh- and Windows-based PCs. In December 1995, the IEEE released an official FireWire specification called IEEE 1394, which describes data-transfer speeds of 100 Mbps, 200 Mbps, and 400 Mbps.

http://www.faculty.iu-br.../13firewire/history.htm

The date of creation (1995) is even mentioned on the FireWire Wikipedia entry (imagine that!), which the FireWire Trade Association feels more than adequate to reference as a reliable source of information!

Idiot...

"So much talk, so little knowledge!"

Indeed! ;)

He merely made a comment about an alternative to USB (as to why, who knows, as neither addresses the issue of the faulty electrical prongs)... and you took it and ran with it. It was you (as usual) who turned this into a debate (in this case, FireWire vs USB) over multiple responses, and had nothing to do (as usual) with the related article. Deal with it!

If he really were a fanboy as you claim, he most likely would have already known about Apple's very own FireWire... wouldn't ya think?

Haven't a clue... your typical response to everyone. People, for the most part, don't have a clue. They don't want one or need one. On the flip side, I can see that the alternative has made you a much better person! LOL

You sure are fun to poke!

Your immature and over-emotional responses to most on this forum lead me to believe that they serve as nothing more than extra credit for your high school debate club.

No dimwit.

First, your only purpose here is to debate me - as your knowledge of both formats is limited at best.

The original fanboy's purpose was to try to slam Apple - as they could indeed have used Firewire instead of USB! But he was too stupid to know this! So his attempt to denigrate Apple only displayed his ignorance!

And then the other usual fanboys jump in and simply displayed their complete lack of understanding of both formats!

Personally, I don't give a damn which format they use.

But the fact remains that USB has a few additional limitations compared to IEE1394 - a fact you and the other fanboys fail to understand. Does that constitute being a fanboy to simply point that out or to state real performance characteristics regarding both formats?

Obviously to someone as oblivious as yourself and the other fanboys who are only here to bash Apple at every opportunity - yet have little understanding of the technology.

And yet your learned colleagues b!tch about breaking prongs off a hard plastic receptacle as they complain about the integrity of other format connectors? LOL! All will break if inserted incorrectly or torqued during use! Duh!

I recall being told that this was a 'technical' site as opposed to one where folks had any understanding of business issues. But the truth is that, except for a few, most here haven't a clue regarding either! They are just here to champion their favorite MP3 player or game platform.

At least I base my opinion on an understanding of both, as opposed to you - whose only purpose is to complain about others who post while offering no information regarding the topic at hand.

But go back and revel in you and your friends needing, and displaying the fact that they haven't a clue. Quite a fact to revel in, isn't it!

Oh my! I said 1993 instead of 1995 - 5years before the 1.5Mbps USB1 was increased to USB2 - which is still slower than Firewire400 due to its architecture.
And to think many of us were using SCSI back in 1985.

That's the best you can do? And you need to look it up instead of simply recalling it?

LOL!

Look up "computer" while you are at it!

"AIX USB support"

You really have no idea what you are talking about, do you? LOL!