internetworld7,

Nobody can make a $500 PC or notebook that's not junk. Look at Dell, everything they make from top to bottom is complete horse s***.

I won't sit here and say Apple computers are junk because I've never owned one, but I do know unless is running Windows, I have no use for it because none of the software I use every day will run on OS/X without some crazy Windows emulation software.

I own two apple products and I'm not crazy about either one, they are nothing special.

Owned a Dell, bought for $649, five years ago, and it has run just fine. Not a problem one. I am using XP, without the added trialware and Dell assistant stuff. I take it Dell no longer supplies a separate disk with just Windows, but they did back when. Anyway, I put lots of hours on the computer and this one is quiet and has run without fail. Is it an exception to the rule, perhaps it is, or perhaps not. I have not seen the current data on repair rates.

Current data? And confuse you more than you have already demonstrated that you are?

If a ~$600 Dell(5 years ago!!! - what, does it have about a single 1GHz cpu? ...and you can't even run games released in the last 3-4 years!) can satisfy you, stick with it. You do NOT have the need for a more powerful unit.

Graphics processing huh? And to think some of us were silly enough to think that this might be more than copying pics from their point and shoot camera and sending them to grandma.

An iMac would be overkill for you! And you control the reflection by controlling the orientation of the lighting in your room! Can you handle THAT? Of course, have you burned out many quality monitors with that Dell? No? Well then, why do you think you will with the iMac???? Oh... sorry to confuse you with your inconsistent set of worries.

Whoever gets your business will definitely pay for it in asinine support calls.

Please relax -- take a deep breath and just chill out. I think this forum is upsetting you. Why, I do not know, as it is just talk about computers. A simple question seems to upset you, so I have nothing further to ask of you. Just have a pleasant week, and cheer up. Apple is fine, the world is fine -- good night!

One last thing. You don't make poor people richer by selling them low quality merchandise that serves them little and is worthless in little time. You make them richer by providing a social infrastructure that returns enough wealth to its citizens to be able to afford quality made products that retain value.

Steve is right.

For you "Apple computers are made of the same components" dudes...

You have likely never owned one...period.

"Put the same cut of wood in the hands of an amateur and a master and you'll see that the wood matters the least."
- Jinky

What brand of motherboard, RAM, CPU, cables, soundboard, video card, and such are in your Mac?

As for a cut of wood, that myrtlewood, IMHO is one of the most beautiful woods to behold. And I get your point, that using parts correctly is essential, as is the software working in harmony. To that end, Apple should work well. The current O/S did have some serious issues. I take it most of the kinks are worked out by now??? Apple software engineers are only human, ya know ;-)

And in the end, there is good to say about all three of the more common used O/S.

Just like most of the World, I too have never owned one -- Mac that is.

Give it up.

What brand mother board,etc is in your Mac? You still think they just assempble them of generic off the shelf parts, don't you?

Go learn what the word commodity means in the business world. And discover what the Intell Roadmap is. And then do some homework and discover the various processes for sourcing components that adhere to an objective standard.

Sadly, you don't understand the distinctions and how similar parts that satisfy the same basic functional requirements can still have differeing reliability and failure and performance ratings - even when they are stated to you.

You have become a fly.

Steve is right. The neg-boys need to think just-a-bit before they post [I know that's a lot to ask]. When you reduce the cost on a computer to under 500$, your cutting into much more than just build. Performance, Durability, Recyclability, Supportability, and Profitability all suffer. This all translates into a computer that ends up as a toxic landfill, useless, frustrating piece of junk with bad service and high early-life mortality rate. In the end, the poor just get poorer - they wind up buying two or more crappy computers over the same period of time for the same lousy short-lived experience. The people who make them get little profit and suffer from the lack of profit available to go generate a safe working environment. The environment suffers - more plastic toxic landfill crap - less thoughtful wasteful packaging. And finally, the industry as a whole suffers for a lot of reasons. I'll leave you Einsteins to figure them out. The long and short of it is - QUALITY rather than QUANTITY makes the world a better place to live - on almost every level.

I appreciate Steve's intelligence and honesty on the matter. You should too. It shows up in many Apple products where you tend to get "years" of "enjoyable" user experience. I have friends still happy with their 9 year old apple laptops!

Sorry, but you might as well be speaking Klingon to these guys. They have no concept of high quality computers that haven't been glued together that also have a long life cycle and have a much higher resell value.

These are but a few of the reasons that compelled me to stop using PCs and get a Mac. The only thing I regret is that I didn't switch sooner. PCs are horrible junkware machines.

High resale value? I thought the Mac lasted forever? Are we talking about selling say a 5 year old machine then? People buy 5 year old Macs? Do you sell them with the hard drive still in the machine. Just curious. As for a Windows PC, it is true that you can buy a cheapo one, while it is also true you can buy a good solid one for a couple to three hundred more. They have a range of qualities.

Wonder if Apple will ever consider building an iMac with a non-glare monitor, since many people could use a non-mirror finish. I find the bathroom mirror adequate. Only other option is the Mini, while it is still being produced, or all the way up to the Pro, which is a bit overkill.

"High resale value? I thought the Mac lasted forever?"

Yes, dimwit, high resale value, just like a BMW or an Acura retains its value longer than does a Yugo.

But simply display your stupidity, as eviddenced over the past posts, you are far beyond simply ignorant.

Yup, they last forever, and they use unique components never before seen in this galaxy.

One can only hope that you are as unigue in your stupidity as the lack of intelligence you display. But, like computer parts, unfortunately you have many competitors for that prize on this forum.

And if a single cpu MacPro is overkill for you, stick with your ~$700 Dell or Gateway or HP. Theyare obviously far too much machine for you to handle - or understand! - as it is.

Before I leave the forum tonight....

You are right BMW and Acura have a very good resale value history. Poor ol' Yugo I am afraid to say, never had a good sale value, let along worring about its resale value. Never considered the resale value on a computer, as it was not that high a ticket item. I did however sell one, or was that two of them. Sometimes you can sell parts or heck give them away. It is not like you bought a car for 20 to 30 grand.

The idea that Mac hardware is special and higher quality is crazy. They are made in the same Chinese factories as everything else. The only reason it is more reliable is because having fewer models and customization choices means they can test them more thoroughly than a company like Dell which has thousands more possible combinations. Yes, you get a better supported, better tested product, but the quality of the components is no better.

Oh, and that's all it is . So it must simply be the way the operator holds the mouse of tilts his head that accounts for the differing hardware failure rates?

Again, the fact that each platform may employ a particular functional component, does NOT mean that every source of that component is identical and has the same reliability figures.

But then, overgeneralization is fun, isn't it.

It's nice to know that a component is a component is a component - regardless of who makes it. Sometimes it is pretty close, other times its not. And the hardware service frequencies would tend to indicate a distinct diverence among many 'identical' parts. And the blanket notion that there is absolutely no differences in sourced components is "crazy" - to coin a phrase.

Are you then saying that an Intel XYZ is made differently than another Intel XYZ, or an ASUS motherboard model XYZ is somehow different because it is in a Mac box?

I am not knocking the Mac product performance and they may well indeed last a long - long time, but then again, people using a Windows PC may have the same experience.

All I am trying to get at is if it is not unique, has the same specs, and model number from the manufacturer, most of which is now China and other offshore countries of origin, how then can it not be as good? Are you saying Dell and HP are not pre-testing their computers with the sourced parts to make sure it is proper?

You aren't very familiar with the sourcing of components are you?

Apple does not take an off the shelf Asus MoBo and stick it in a MAC.

Asus OEMS for many, but their product mix for all of their cusotmers is not necessarily the same as what they retail.

That is true with almost every vendor!

So while you run about trying to figure out how to distinguishe between off the shelf retail components and what is inside a named manufacturers boxes.

The designs adhere to the Intel Roadmap - an set of specs.

For several years, Apple used slot loading DVD units that you could not source on the retail market.

I am sorry if you fail to grasp the distinction between off the shelf, retail, proprietary or limited availability designs, or superior MTBF components in the overall marketplace and seem to insist that since all are identical that they are all the same.

And now you suggest that I assert that other manaufacturers do not test their equipment for functionality. Damn you are dense. Sure they work, But they also build units to cetain price points, meaning they may not pay extra for a more robust component design that functions similarly but perhaps not for as long a lifecycle!

Your problem is not that you miss the subtileties at step 27, but you fail to understand basic manufacturing, OEM and sourcing methodologies, period. And obviously you have never been involved with the military and how a design for the same item can deviate radically if a more robust or greater lifecycle performace may be required - for the same identically functioning part.

There is more to understanding the sourcing game than your semantics exercise and your one or two terms that are near meaningless in the procurement process.

Ooo, and article I haven't commented on.

Comment, comment, comment.

There, that's fixed that.

Wondered where you were...

Glad you were able to get a few thoughts posted... ;-)

You numbnuts are pure comedy. hahahahahahaha

Can you imagine how crazy this board could be if they talked politics here? ;-)) Perhaps Mac is religion and politics, all rolled into one. Simple little discussion going on, and some people here start attacking people in vile ways. They don't answer a question one, but rather go off in some insane fashion.

Come time to replace my Dell, be it after these 5 yrs of good service, or in another year or two from now, I will look at what Apple has to offer at the time, while also considering another Windows or even a Linux PC. As for Macs, all I ask of Mac users is to give me reasons for paying a premium, other than Apple told me the parts and software all work better together. Just some facts please, without the attacks, thank you!

The first thing you can do is to stop looking for UNIQUE components. The Mac is simply the latest incarnation of the Intel Roadmap.

And unfortunately it is the only mainstream platform that also runs OSX in addition to all of the other x86 compliant environments.

Beyond that, good luck finding a machine that matches your needs, as aside from the 'desktop' MacPro in the high end, the line is contrained both in the low end and in the high end.

And considering it has been ~3 years since the last significant design change, the new models are a disappointment, bith in that they either eliminate heretofore present functionality, or fail to implement more current higher end technology. An excellent example of the latter being their kludged use of the NVidia graphics switching technology where Apple requires that the user log off and on to switch (where there is no such fundamental requirement by the technology) - and wondering why they just didn't include multiple graphics processors and utilize the new HydraGraphics solution from Lucid Logix to simply load balance the two graphics cards and utilize them both concurrently.

Not to mention that Apple doesn't even provide the option of new low power Quadcore CPUs, 4GB DIMMS, nor expanded RAM capacity in order to support eother graphics or additional VMs in their portable lines. Welcome to 2005.

Unfortunately it appears as if they are allocating too many resources to the iPhone instead of to their computer design.

Its unfortunate that OSX is not available for the wider x86 marketspace - as Apple's fears would be justified with the new lineup of mediocre image oriented machines. Most would take the OS and go elsewhere!

But if you want to compare, the Mac is a PC that uses reliable commodity x86 components...NOT unique components.

What would be unique for a site that proportendly serves as a portal for developers would be just a basic awareness of the both the the larger world of IT business and enterprise computing instead of those whose exposure to IT is limited to swapping MP3 file and having played a computer game in their bedroom in their mom's house.

So we agree, there is nothing unique about the MAC inside vs. the PC inside components. Since there is no unique parts, how then does one know that the motherboard, tested to work well in an Apple, doesn't work well, as tested in a Dell? And if you dislike Dell, then say Velocity, or a Gateway, if they have tested that board out to work as it should. Are you assuming that all other brands use the cheapest components, other than Apple branded products? I am not saying that what is inside the Mac is not good product, as price would indicate they can afford to put good stuff in there. But alas, and Intel is an Intel, and an NVida graphic card is good, be it inside one or the other.

Now the O/S. What do you see as the best elements which separate it from the rest, be it Windows or Linux. And what do you think of Ubuntu Linux?

CPU and monitor as one is good for less space and the appearance, though it means you risk one or the other failing and thus taking down both, if the repair is expensive or keeps your computer out of service too long. Perhaps a three year standard warranty is in order here, based on cost. I could easily afford the Mac Pro, but it is more than I need for Internet use and basic photo manipulation. Sort of an overkill.

Where did they find you? ;-)

First, your fantasy that there are "unique" parts was your invented red herring.

Two, now you want to make the illogical leap and say all commodity parts are equally reliable and function equally well.

If that were the case, all computers would be equal and the failure rates would be identical - a fact that is is utterly ridiculous.

Thus Apple's historical hardware quality service records must simply confuse the hell out of you.

As far as the OS, I don't care what you use!
If you are satisfied with a kludgy Windows and routine corruption issues and its lack of robust error handling doesn't bother you, by all means use it.

If you think Linux is OK, and you don't mind trying to figure out a bunch of programmers work who have spent their time rearranging UNIX's monolithic file structure to the point where neither Windows nor UNIX folk can find anything; and the lack of applications other than OpenOffice floats your boat on a GUI where the claim to fame is that it looks like Windows (so much for innovation!) but can't 'talk' natively to Windows, great! Enjoy your robust little print server that looks like Windows without the apps.

If you want a fundamentally more secure and robust OS which talks natively with all UNIXes and Windows without the need for terminal eminulation, and you want the power of a full blown command line as well as a best of breed elegant GUI, and you also want your choice of the best of ALL the applications (as well as their OSes) that run on x86, regardless of OS, while also having access to the best of breed VMWare Fusion andd can run ALL of the OSes concurrently, for a fraction of the price of VMWare Workstation - where you surrender NO functional deficiencies while having the choice of an additional elegant environment, well, they you might want to choose OSX.

And then you get to figure out what machine best suits your needs.

If you are satisfied with mediocre mid range laptop catering to image over robust performance and functionality, well the MacBook and MacBook Pro will suit you fine. If you need more, either for VMs, graphics, RAM, or processing power, you are out of luck and we can only hope that the next iteration of upgrades will incorporate robust technologies currently available.

Oh, and all in one monitor repair, be it a laptop of an all in one is not very expensive. But if you want it repaired by the manufacturer, you are best to buy the warranty.

Besides, debate over aditional cost aside, IF you are so concerned about the intergrated screen longevity, nothing precludes you from running one or multiple low cost external monitors. Personally, I think that is being far too anal. They DON'T have a history of probems. But you are welcome to manufacture perceived issues wherever you like.

Quite frankly, if you don't need portability, it is hard to find a nicer more cost effective machine thatn the Mac Pro - especially one that you can actually grow into, rather than almost immediately begin to grow out of. Its a best buy for whatever OS environment you want to run. And having the added power and functionality of OSX 'built in', and the availability of VMWare Fusion so you can run any or all of the others AT THE SAME TIME, is a bonus.

Back to Windows versus OSX, I think its a rather tired argument. The Windows folks like to complain about it, much as they always have - touting 40000000 spreadsheets,etc. available for Windows - not to mention that the one origninally developed for the MAC, you know, Excel, is now the standard. Nor do they ever say much about Office having more functioanity in OSX than it does in Windows - not that anyone has actually every figured out the bloated confused monstrosity anyway. But what it really comes down to is games. And tha MACc runs Windows too - natively - no more emulations nonsense. After all, the Mac is simply the latest incarnation of the Intel Roadmap - with Intel's newest 64 bit native BIOS developed for Itanium included.

But if you live in the graphics world, or audio, etc, the Mac does offer a greater wealth of tools - in addition to whatever you like in Windows or Linux. But then, it all depends on what you want to do.

So for all of the fanboys here that push one or the other to the exclusion of the other, i think that is a bit lame.

On the other hand, if you want a machine you can grow into, and environments that are limited only by YOUR choice and not the limitations of the hardware, you are currently stuck looking at the Macs - and you also have the benefit of their exceptional service records.

I would suggest the Mac simply for the flexibility and power that those choices afford. But ultimately you decide what limitations you are comfortable with.

"...and seamless integration which they have personally experienced and become accustomed to with Apple's products."

Whooo, hoooo...riot.....now that's the funniest thing I've heard all week.

Anyone that's tried to Package iTunes in a secure way, (because it's reqired to sync your board of directors shinny iPhones,) buy removing some of the non-enterprise features (Bonjor, Apple TV features,) should know what I'm talking about.

What works for personal or consumer enviornments does NOT nessessarly work for enterprise class enviornments.

THAT is where Apple misses the mark in just about every product they produce.

"they're unlikely to abandon the quality and seamless integration which they have personally experienced and become accustomed to with Apple's products"

LOL :)) As soon as I outgrew my student sneakers and started to get real business done I switched to XP, the logical choice if you want to seamlessly integrate with 95% of the rest of the world. I do however use top hardware so maybe that makes a difference.

Good for you.

Clearly you're misled on this one. I also integrate with 95% of the rest of the world on my Mac. I take care of business on it and it's a great machine for leisure. Every time I go from a Mac to a PC it feels like I've just stepped into a time machine and went to some unknown prehistoric land.

i.e. We only serve rich people.

Typical Apple arrogance.

There are some customers we choose not to serve well such as those outside the US, for them we have special highly overpriced products.

Absolutely true!

"We don't know how to make a $500 computer that's not a piece of junk. And our DNA will not let us ship that."

So does that mean that the Mac mini was junk?

Its a shame Apple couldn't simply add an additional RAM slot, include a 16x PCI-E slot and extend the case several inches to accomodate a full length card and they would have had a unit sufficient for customers to add sufficient resources. For the cost of literally a few bucks, they would have had a perfectly acceptable $600 computer which allowed for customer expansion.

Its a sad fact that Steve allows the exclusion of literally I/O capabilities costing pennies to cripple his machines...as evidenced by such pennywise, dollar foolish steps such as eliminating IEE1394/FW in the MacBook, an Ethernet port in the MacBook Air, and no eSata port.

Include those features and you shift the discussion from Apple determining which machines are suitable for your tasks and you place it with customers who can determine what level of performance capability they demand.

The sad thing is that a large part of Steve's problem is his LACK of vision.

I have felt that Steve is lacking in vision lately.
Not completely, but there have been slight hints among the disappointments lately I've personally experienced...

No trolling intended.

"We don't know how to make a $500 computer that's not a piece of junk. And our DNA will not let us ship that."

'So does that mean that the Mac mini was junk?'

Nope. The Mac mini starts at $599. :)

I owned both versions of the mini...not junk - but ummm yeah...decent however for the home user who doesn't need big performance and just wants a home machine re-using existing monitor, keyboard and mouse.

As for your comment about moding the mini, you are the type of user they were not targeting for that device - plain and simple (and yes, I wanted to mod both of mine too...they are now doorstops).

With regards to your comments about I/O capabilities...if the model your looking at doesn't have the features you want, look at another model. It is really that simple. The idea is not to give you all the apples (pardon the pun) in one basket - you have to make a choice as a consumer wich model you want that has the features you need - of course your going to pay more - that is the idea.

Note on the Macbook Air - I looked at these, and I was afraid I would break the silly thing...scary.

Preaching to the choir, hallelujah!

I was not talking about a user modding anything.

I was referring to the miniscule changes needed by Apple in order to effectively address the low end market with a machine that was actually capable of addressing the OSX and Windows marketplace for a given pricepoint.

Apple stands to gain significant marketshare by attracting Windows users, many of whom are curious about OSX, but these users are not about to run out and spend $1000+ on a machine just to try OSX - which they still view as a risky proposition. Thus, a basic functional machine is needed as a bridge to allow for a migration path that does not simply result in a wothless machine - no - it won't be a workstation, but it can at least run Windows if they for some reason decide not to move.

Despite their limited successes, Apple is still loosing big time in the crossover market by making the price of conversion so steep.

Just like Blu-Ray, the cost of entry into what is considered by many to be a niche market is unnecessarily prohibitive.

Of course, if ole Steve knew what a basic SWOT/TOWS analysis was, he would address that niche.

And sorry i7, the Mac mini as it has been underconfigured, is junk at any price.

And with insufficient RAM capacity and lack of appreciable video support, it was junk.

Not likely. It's made by Apple and it runs OS X. Not junk in my book.

In your book? What book might that be? How to spend more money on the same hardware? How to be incompatible with a large portion of software? How to have weak gaming hardware?

In what book?

"How to act retarded online and make people laugh."

Why do you ask? Would you like a copy?

I don't need one. All I haft to do is copy you. :)

Lol....he says that "Apple products typically sell to Apple customers"...but then later he talks about getting new customers. Hmm...how are you going to get new customers when you're aiming at selling to your current ones.

LOL...inded!

So tell us, what is so confusing about the word "typically"...aside from the fact that you don't understand it?

Agreed

Steve Jobs pisses me off more and more everyday... First, he called Blu-Ray "a bag of hurt" when someone asked him why the new MacBook Pro didn't have it. Then, he decided to get rid of the Mac Mini. Then, decided to name the new version of OSX "Snow Leopard." And then, saying HDMI is "limited" in resolution when comparing with DisplayPort? Now, he's saying he doesn't want to sell his products to the middle-income Americans??? Who the fudge does he think he is??? Besides, the CEO of Apple, that is.

I hope he will come to his senses soon and realize that Macs were nothing (marketshare-wise) before the iPod era. PC's have dominated Macs because the technology used to create them are getting cheaper and cheaper everyday. Macs uses the same technology but it costs more because Steve Jobs is an a$$hole.

Apple needs to stop being so damn greedy and appease the majority of the world instead of just the rich. I understand that they want to set themselves apart from the middle and lower class. That is why all of their stores are located in rich neighborhoods. Even though that their products probably cost ($500 to $1000 less than their retail price) to make, they seem to think that they're making "high quality" products.

In conclusion, Steve Jobs is a nutcase and needs some old woman to cuddle him til he goes to sleep.

Yup, naming the new OSX version Snow Leopard is certainly reason to hate Steve Jobs.

"Now, he's saying he doesn't want to sell his products to the middle-income Americans??? Who the fudge does he think he is???"

Really? And he says that where, exactly...

You are an idiot.

Get some counseling.

"Steve Jobs pisses me off more and more everyday."

LOL. I think you should see a psychiatrist about that.

Well Bently isn't exactly expecting middle-income americans to buy their cars. let apple be a "luxury" PC maker if they want to be.

ROFL! internetworld telling someone they should see a psychiatrist...Now that is FUNNY! I think he was looking in the mirror when he said that!

It's always entertaining to hear from the little whining M$ fanboy troll.

Lol! internetworld calling someone a troll. Keep the laughs coming!

So did you ever get Jobs to go out on a date with you or how's that coming?

Sorry but I'll leave the f**got stuff to you. That's more of your forte. :)

I'm not the one with a man crush on Jobs...=0

internetworld7 and foxfyre: Both of you need to see a psychiatrist because the both of you are spending WAY too much time on this site bashing people!!! You two needs to just shut your hole and admit to yourselves that there are some people who are right about certain things.

They tend to avoid customers with any math ability or common sense. They can calculate how badly Apple is screwing them. =0

Apple states they have superior parts in their machines. OK then, what are those superior parts. I have a 5 year old Dell which has run without fail. It has an Intel processor, which I have always preferred. And the Apple has.... well it has an Intel. And the hard drive on a Mac is what? Never heard of an Apple brand hard drive. So far, the only fact I have seen which indicates any superior outcome in using an Apple is not having to run an antivirus app. while connected to the Net. Of course this is also true of Linux. And for those sites setup to look or even work with only ie7, what option will you have with Mac --- to use Windows in Mac? What is the deal with the monitor and computer all in one, as one may fail before the other and thus adding to replacement cost? Please someone explain the goodness which is Apple over Linux and Windows, because it is very - very hard to understand based on data, or experience I have had in playing with the machines in the store to compare them.

Yet another wacko rant.

So you admit that based upon your playing with machines in stores that you can't determine what are the sources of the internal components.

And what to do "for those sites setup to look or even work with only ie7, what option will you have with Mac"?
Probably the same that you have if you run Firefox.

You are clueless. You DO deserve a Dell! And you can't blame Apple or the Mac for that!

To address this rather hostile young man, I assume you to be. My post was not a wacho rant, though it seems to ignited one to follow.

Now you tell me, exactly, piece by piece, what are those superior components found within your Apple.

I use Firefox or Opera for most viewing, but in fact some sites do not work with those two options.

Ya know, "foxfyre" it takes no more effort to be considerate of others posting here, than it does to be obnoxious.

I agree

Genius, superior components means that they are not necessarily the cheapest available!

Not sure what that means? Of course not, as you have already indicated that! It means that you can source components from reliable OEMs with a proven track record of having higher MTBF rates instead of sinmply going to China and buying whosever components are cheapest and figuring that once you sell the machine that you don't care about the reliability of the machines.

And if that still confuses you, witness Apple's customer sat figures for hardware and find another PC manufacturer who comes even close.

Sorry to confuse you and those others who can't seem to get a grasp regarding the quality of commodity components.

So then, you still can not find one part in that Apple computer which is truly unique, now can you! You actually believe that say Western Digital is making special hard drives in a place other than China, just for Apple? If an Apple computer never fails, or should we say is so superior, it rarely fails, why then not a 3 year warranty without having to pay for that warranty? As for people not complaining about problems, that is the old psychology theory put into use. Tell a person their BMW is not going break due to perfect German engineering, and they feel like they are one of the few when they need repairs in short time. The Mac people never seem to crack open a case to change anything - not even a hard drive, so how do they know what the heck Apple put in there. Since the middle priced Macs all come as one piece, they better last forever, or you will have an expensive repair bill for either the computer or the monitor.

Still waiting for an explanation on how ATI graphics card is better in an Apple and less so in a PC. And that Intel processor only works when in a Mac -- how strange for it to be magically better inside a Mac box. Look, if I wanted to spend $2800 and get a Mac Pro, I am sure it is a wonderful machine. Worth the price? Could be, but I doubt most people are looking for that much power to do the basics of daily computing at home and small office. Why is there not one in say the $1,200 range without a monitor attached, so you could pay for the computing power and decide on a monitor of your choosing? Perhaps the $200 to $400 difference would then make more sense.

ROFLMAO!

Unique???? You ARE an idiot!

Apple converted to the commodity x86 platform precisely to AVOID having to source limited volume "unique" parts.

Superior parts refer to failure rates and basic functionality. The same difference one might realize by using a Western Digital hard drive over a low end Maxtor hard drive!

They draw a distinction between the quality of sourced commodity components and you are sitting here with your head up your posterior still trying to argue that the Mac is other than a privately branded x86 PC!

Stick a fork in you, as you are an idiot arguing a position that was nonsensical when the PC fanboys still thought the Mac was not a PC!

You need to seek therapy, as you seem to have some real problems. We are in a discussion about the computers, and you are ranting and raving away, while calling people idiots. What part of the rules for using this forum don't you understand. It states, no personal attacks. Just the thought of someone coming un-glued about debating the value of Apple vs. PC is beyond the norm.

Once again, what is unique about the parts? Simple question, which I would assume has an answer. Oh wait, now you say that they are not unique, but somehow superior! How do you know that a Windows PC doesn't have the exact same Western Digital hard drive and exact same Intel CPU inside? They may be using a better power supply, fan, motherboard and such in a good PC. Have you ever heard of an ASUS motherboard? Of course you have, and they make some of the Worlds best boards for PC's.

You ARE an idiot, as you attempt to differentiate a Mac from a PC.

And to paraphrase General Honore, "You are stuck on stupid."

Somehow you have found the word "unique" and seek to differentiate the Mac form any other PC on the basis that they use "unique" parts, which is precisely what they ELIMINATED by their adopting the x856 COMMODITY platform. Now, go Google the word "commodity".

Apple does NOT source UNIQUE parts! They attempt to source superior parts - as compared to less reliable parts!

And that fact IS supported by over 20 years of customer sat/hardware reliability reports!

And then you might want to figure out the diferentiation between superior parts - those which are more reliable - and simply adequate components of the same function.

I know this is pretty complicated for you.

But then, I guess a BMW or an Acura are equivalent to a Yugo for you too. Gee, they are all cars...

"Unique"! ROFLMAO!

What an a** you are.

He needs his own TV show. His website could be www.asscrankwithmanyopinions.com He often makes good points, but they are often overshadowed with his hostile manner and lack of maturity. He is supposedly some old guy, but acts more like a middle schooler. We're waiting for him to get past the age of 13 before we mention the possibility of going for a GED in 10 years.

Cetainly not like you as you advertise your 'personality'...aye?

Yup.

LOL. ^_^

"Now you tell me, exactly, piece by piece, what are those superior components found within your Apple."

You are an idiot!

Your repeated questions reflecting the same exact ignorant assumption, simply stated again and again ad nauseum gets old.

Research the hardware customer sat and frequency of repair. Access Consumer Reports, Trade sources, whatever. THEY will tell you that the machines function longer with fewer repairs than their competitors.

So, genius, YOU tell us whatis responsible for this objective measure?

YOU are the one who wants to know which component is magical. You are the only one that doesn't get sourcing more reliable commodity components that comprise a suprior component mix. Not us!

Youwant a conversation? That requires that you impart a modicum of common sense, as well the ability to read for meaning and not simply restating the same asinine objection again and again.

I'm sorry the concept of sourcing the more robust and reliable components among commodity components is SOOOO komplekated to you.

Your repeaed asinine questions are obnoxious!

The apparent fact that you belong to some guy named Morris who consistently makes personal attacks as well as well as fails to add insight and then laments that others aren't nicer in response grows lamer by the post.

You want a discussion?...Then contribute something other than attacks and recurrant whining.

The irony is that a lot of that applies to you. Except for the "then laments that others aren't nicer in response" bit. And your name probably isn't Morris. Rather than making a few civil comments, you acted like he was a heathen and God had given you authority to cast/chew him out. You come across as bitter and intolerant, so why should we listen to you?

I like Unix and Linux. I even like Windows somewhat. I would like Macs more if they were easier to tinker with and had a lot more in the way of games and decent software. I really don't like Microsoft's business practices, but Apple isn't much better and they're not willing to let their operating system be used on other people's computers (not to mention the higher price).

And with my computer, I know I could upgrade any component I choose to. I can purchase a part from anywhere. I have much more in the way of choice than I would with a Mac and that's very important to me.

This is a silly comment by Steve Jobs. I have an $800 PC that is a quality PC by anyone's standards. An intel Quad Core, 2 Gigs of Ram and a modern dedicated graphics card, 500 GB hard drive. If I look at Macs with those same specifications they are typically at a much higher price point.

Granted OSX is a quality piece of software, but what you're really paying for is the 'Mac experience'...and I have better things to pay for than a 'Mac experience'...like gas, food and video games.

Why stop there?

Why not conclude that every car priced higher than your used Kia is also a waste.

Have fun with your BB or Office Depot Gateway or HP.

If the used car is the same in all respects and your used Kia, then yes, no real need to pay more for the other car.

Then compare their hardware customer sat and repair rates with other manufacturers.

There is no comparison.

But we won't confuse you and the other dweeb who has no idea about the difference between "unique" and the relative quality of various commodity components above with objective fact.

Apple chooses to stay out of the low-end junk market which is about 90% of the PC market. A Mac is a high quality machine for people with taste.

Care to post any backup for that 90% number or did you just pull it out of your rear end.

Yes it is high quality because it has the same hardware with an Apple logo slapped on it. Good argument there chump. *wink*

Cute but stupid.

As Apple chooses not to compete in the sub $1000 market, that leaes only Windows PCs and Linux.

So how about YOU listing who the additional 10+% are in that market niche?

Mac Mini. Well not a mini price the price, but nonetheless, it is below $600. I do believe that to be sub $1000. And just because a computer cost more than $1000, you can not assume that it is better than one costing say $800. Simply charging $200, $400, or more than the competition, in itself, doesn't make it that much better. A simple question has to be, just what is better. I am NOT saying it is not possible to have some component in there which is better, but I see NO evidence that the Intel Mac is in fact superior.

Just because a Mac may have the same video chip or processor or perhaps hard drive or ram does not make it the same as a dell or other pc like say HP.

I have a macbook and an iMac - as well as a Dell XPS and our company uses Dell exclusively...

When I look at the design of my macs vs pc - I see several major differences and frankly the macbook is downright slick in the way it is designed and assembled (try looking at how the ram or hd in a macbook is housed or how well the heat management is handled etc).

They are well designed and well put together - they are NOT designed for the mod or pc enthusiast who has the savvy to upgrade or fiddle with his/her hardware - that is not Apples target market.

In the end it comes down to the OS for most of you folks, lets face it, OSX is sexy and a very solid OS (BSD based mind you). If Apple chooses not to release OSX for use on non Apple hardware that is there choice and right as the owners of the software. Get over it and buy a mac or go play with a different OS.

You are right for once. Apple is releasing 'decent' enough products.

I am still for customer choice however. My PCs are higher end than whatever Apple produces - However, it is very important to enable *everybody* on this planet to have access to IT.

Apple doesn't give a d*** - which wouldn't be such an issue if they wouldn't be too cowardly to open their system and give other manufacturers the opportunity to serve lower end markets. A very intelligent person in India for example might make as much per month as a mediocre slob in the western hemisphere per week. There is no way they will go for a mediocre overpriced system that limits their choice of extension products to mediocre overpriced components and software.

Yeah not so much...

http://gizmodo.com/50665...-says-to-expect-no-more

What?

It is a PC with limited resources.

"I am NOT saying it is not possible to have some component in there which is better, but I see NO evidence that the Intel Mac is in fact superior." This is a vapid statment with little meaning aside from your emotional response.

And no one ever stated that simple price was a determininate of quality or 'superiority' that you provide absolutely no criterion by which to substantiate and validate the term.

Nor do you provide a objective metric by which to determine which is 'better'.

But please continue with your emotional nonsense. At least you are in touch with your feelings, as irrational and amorphous as they are.

"I think what we want to do is deliver an increasing level of value to these customers," Jobs told one analyst. "There are some customers which we choose not to serve. We don't know how to make a $500 computer that's not a piece of junk."

No, you'll build it for $500 and sell it for $1500. If Apple customers are smart and tech-saavy, then don't put forward the unmitigated gall to make comments like this, because they know why THEY are buying Apple products. There's already a crap ton of comparisons done that price Apple built and PC competetors for up to 400 less than the Apple product. So, just say that Apple customers are paying for the 'premium', ie: great Apple service and the ability to run OSX, because that is the reality of it.

Well, PCs that are sold at like $500 usually (I'm excluding the exceptions like when it's a campaign or something), built at a price much cheaper, if it's something like $500, I'd guess the actual price of the raw parts are something like $150-$200

The really smart people know Apple products while great, are overpriced to hell and the company price-gouges.

Good point. These M$ fanboys act like PC's sold for $500 cost $499.00 to make. Get real guys.

I personally think you're ignorant Internetworld7, because you've apparently established yourself as an Apple fanboy. You may be the reason why some people don't own Macs, because they cannot handle the 'community' they join.

Everybody knows that a company needs to make a profit off from the products they sell. Companies like HP, Dell and Gateway have a wide variety of products for every aspect of the market. Whether it's high profile PC's or lower end market PCs.

The problem with Apple is that they practically own their own niche market, and they have no one else to compete with. They are able to rise the prices of their products just by putting some extra gloss on their devices. What customers are really paying for is marketing and perception, where they drink the kool aid that is handed to them. They pay for the art designers and the factories that put the extra spitshine on their stuff.

That's fine and dandy Internetworld7, but just remember that what you pay for and what I pay for have different ramifications. I'd just rather pay less.

So name a PC manufacturer who markets a dual QuadCore XEON for less than the MacPro?

We're waiting....

Obviously you aren't part of that "really smart" crowd...

One can only imagine the "ramifications" of your reasoning(sic).

And it is hilarious to watch as so many speculate regarding electronics markups, which have historically hovered at 300% over total (NOT just component) costs.

And as far as buying a machine to join a community? You are wacked. Who cares who else uses one? The fact is that Apple fanboys like i7 are as stupid as PC fanboys like yourself who give a sh!t about communities and other social aspects of computing.

Maybe its time you and the others like you start focusing on and make decisions based upon what YOU need to do with a machine and less on what others are doing.

Enjoy your Yugo. After all, you don't want to pay for design.

foxfyre, you seem to get angrier with each post. I'm concerned about your health. A new study confirms this is the best way to blow steam and experience instant happiness:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6DBuk91phkI

Seriously, try it and tell me how you feel afterward. I hear it works like a charm. ^_-

Yet another moronic rant with no substance. I think your problem is very conspicuous:

http://img.photobucket.c...1/head_up_your_ass2.jpg

Ahh, because we're all interested in Dual Quad Core Xeon computers, well anyway I won't argue, hopefully you won't come back with some absolutely ridiculous argument defending the Mac, but I'm 99% sure you will.

http://www.avadirect.com...igurator.asp?PRID=11176

I can't link it exactly configured, but if you configure it like the Mac Pro with a video card that is twice as good (the minimum they offer), it's still 200 dollars cheaper, including the $50 shipping charge.

Enjoy...and enjoy being a part of the 'really smart' crowd.

I'll stick with what I have.

Apple is charging what the market will pay for the product - plain and simple. Dont like it? Dont buy it.

As for these comparison pricing on similar hardware - yeah you can do it cheaper with the same 'spec' but your not getting the integration, function nor OS (lets not forget the real reason behind the hatred). Everyone seems to also forget that Apple is not interested in the pc mod enthusiast nor are they interested in the backyard pc techs who want to build a better mouse trap. They focus on a slightly different user base and it is working for them.

What in the devil are you talking about? Who's disputing integration/functionality/etc. Read my comment again. I have no issue with why Mac users love Apple, I have an issue with Steve clamoring on with his almighty complex, all this BS that Apple can't build a $500 computer, when OBVIOUSLY if Dell has (and this is my point) a similarly speced $1200 dollar computer, it blows Apples offerings out of the water - and we're talking about Dell here...imagine a well thought out custom built computer, or even something from a mid sized company that's been in it for years.

He needs to stop spewing this BS....granted, it's a free country - but this is the kind of thing that peeves non-Apple users off. And I'm not speaking in terms of Apple vs. non-Apple here - I don't consider myself a fanboy, I like the PC and MS, and I can respect Apple products perfectly fine, but it's little things like this that he does that ticks me off. Will I pop a blood veseel? No way - but this IS a tech site, and I felt like voicing my opinion.

Just come out with the simple truth and reality of it. Apple creates markets for products that are simply over-priced no matter how you look at it, but especially when compared to it's similarly specced competitors products. Don't make excuses and patronize people....and stop taking jabs at non-Apple products.

I experianced instant happiness once. But then it wore off and i had to buy another six pack.

which $1200 Dell blows Apples offerings out of the water? Pretty bold statement. A 1200 Dell blows any computer Apple makes out of the water....right. Put down the pipe please.

Are you two different people?

ON one apple topic you talk about how great a pc is and that Apple has nothing like it in the price range but now we are back to Apple is better? Which is it?

Yet another post that has nothing to do with the above topic, you offer nothing but fanboy rage, you really need help...

Did you try this new remedy in the video? I hear it is long lasting. :)

Gee whiz! So I think Apple has some fine aspects to ther product mix, but on the other hand find that some (lots) of their strategic planning sucks?

I want Apple to produce a machine that is as good as can be produced for the money - not because Apple is a religion, but because some want to use OSX on the best hardware platform, regardless of the price niche or brand, that can be had.

Barring that, I want OSX released to the larger market and for Apple to get off their image is all @ss and compete - which they are not currently doing.

Unlike you and so many here who are slaves to Windows or a label, I don't give a rat's @ss!. I want the tools I need available on the best platform available. And I don't care who makes it.

So looky here, someone confused that someone can find both strengths and weakenesses in one vendor. Confuses you knee-jerk fanboys all to hell, doesn't it?

Not even a close comparison.

But I love your rebutal that all are not interested in a dual quad-core XEON. Well, gee, not all are interested in a $499 BestBuy special either.

Bottomline, your Apple is ALWAYS more expensive and a bad deal is garbage, like the rest of the usual fanboy rants about this place.

Apple, like the other manufacturers here, has some very good producs, and some that I think are utter wastes of energy.

And it makes sense to hold them accountable for theor shortcomings just like it makes sense to acknowledge their strengths.

Something that confuses you head up your posterior fanboys to no end.

The irony is that your wacked crap simply alienates more from your supposed goal than it attracts.

You want to more effectively proselytize for Apple. Shut the F#$@ up.

Why exactly isn't it a close comparison? Give me examples, please. Configure it the exact same way with a BETTER video card and a BETTER motherboard and it's $2600 ($200 cheaper), so I need some reasons as to why it doesn't compare to your untouchable Mac Pro for $2800.

Thanks.

And to continue, no...I realize that not everyone is interested in $499 computers, but that's not the point of the matter (remember, YOU'RE the one that brought up finding a PC specced the same way for less than the Mac Pro, and I did), my point is, and remains that Mr. Jobs is talking $hit and needs to be less about the antagonistic and more about the reality of Apples products and marketing schemes. Simple - his comment about not being able to create a 500 PC that isn't junk is just a hot load of bs, because if Dell/HP/Gateway/Custom builts/etc (all the inferior products in Appleite eyes) can make computers with the SAME specs as JUST as an Eg, a $1200 Mac, but for $700, then obviously, so can Apple - they just CHOOSE to sell them for way more money. Nothing WRONG with that...just dont go talking crap, is all I am, and have been saying.

Anyway, I'm done with this. I think I've made my point crystal clear and don't care to deal with rabid Apple fanboys that are blinded by that signature superiority/everything Apple does is good, complex. I've said already that I respect and view Apple products and services as good.

To add a tad more perspective, I think Sony computers are the 'Apples' of the PC market - they're way, way overpriced, and they don't have any excuses. They run the same hardware and same exact OS of their 'cheaper' competitors...but many people love the brand and buy them too.

Take Care.

Google it. I've done the work for fox already. I'm sure you can find pretty much anything....doesn't have to be Dell. HP, Gateway, Acer, etc.

Bullsh!t you have.

You provide a limited machine that does not feature the same dual quad core Xeons (there max i slower), features substantially slower RAM, and totally lacks the design aplomb of the MacPro case and you declare it equivalent?

It takes more than Googling a component name. You have to have a clue as to how they are used and configured!

And you miss the boat. So, now you can try Googling the word "boat".

Let's see, the closest we can come is $4209 for a stripped down barebones box from a no-name white box configurator.

And the Mac price of 4099 is still cheaper, even using an additional 2GB ($500!!!) of their faster obscenely priced RAM (Note: whoever buys Apple peripherals from Apple, instead of from 3rd parties, IS an ABSOLUTE idiot)

And they don't even source the higher speed Quadcore Xeons Apple uses and the RAM is substantially slower!

And compare cases? Oh, you must mean their high end generic mid-tower case. I wonder, does it have the thermal design and LOW NOISE required by the MANY PEOPLE WHO DO NEED THE POWER the MacPro affords?

And on top of all that, your no-name clone still can't run OSX, a major reason for buying the MacPro.

Not everyone who uses a computer is a student whose power tasks are using Word, accessing YouTube and playing a game. But then, how would you know?

Yup, you call me a rabid Apple fanboy while the other guy above wants to know if I am the same guy trashing Apple's MacBook Pros.

But then, like the rest of your b!tch, facts don't mean nearly as much as your emotional anti-Apple fanboy rant.

And compared the the fancy high-end rigs pushed by the NAMED PC companies, the MacPro is an EXCELLENT machine at an EXCELLENT price whose design creams the competition.

Now come back and tell us about what your Uncle Vinny made in his garage with parts sourced at the local swap meet, fanboy.

I don't exactly understand what I did to make you angry Mr. Foxfyre. You seem to come off as a snob on BetaNews for one thing...after all 'it's hilarious to watch so many people speculate'...as you observe from your mighty tower of awesomeness.

I'm not wacked, but thank you.

As for caring about the social aspects of computing, both you and I are posting at betanews...and you certainly are a vocal little guy.

Nothing wrong with a Yugo. Though anyone can argue that a design of a computer has much less value than the design of a car. Considering your car is always outside and many people see it on a daily basis.

Me and my PC homeboys, fanboys, and freaks are too cool for you good sir.

By foxfyre edited Oct 14, 2008 - 9:43 PM
Gee, with your lead "In addition to being a crappy PC" I thought you WERE talking about the new macs!

Interpreted:

Apple WON'T make a PC (as that is ALL the Mac is NOW!) that runs OSX at a competitive price point.

In other words, Apple won't or can't compete.

But if you want a machine sure to impress your friends as they look at their reflection in the glossy screen, look at what this i7 idiot is pushing.

Apple, the PC that can't compete with Windows units. Sad testimony, isn't it.

Emphasis added.

There are plenty of other examples of his arguments about how Apple desktops are the best and the worst. He does seem to be relatively stable on the laptop side of things though. Hates the MBPs most of the time.

You won't.

PC users wanting that kind of power will generally build their own.

I've gotten quotes off of MWave for comparable systems (including top of the line, name brand hardware) for a good deal less than you'd be able to buy a mac (and the Antec Sonata II case is *very* nice), but when you add in bundled apps, support options (The Genius Bar will fix many problems for free the "geek squad" would charge you $70 for), that extra $1000 dwindles to nothing.

It amounts to option and choice. Apple provides the *entire* package, bundled, with exceptional support which is *great* for those who want it all taken care of. You can get the same (or better) package for cheaper if you *cut* the support and app bundles, which is great for folks who are more willing to put forth their own efforts in support than pay someone else to do it.

Sadly, while such a package *could* be marketed for the "PC crowd", they'd have to fight Apple for the customers....Apple would win, hands down (PC wouldn't support MAC OSX).

Now if Apple would just loosen their grip on OSX....problem solved.

Lol, fair enough Neoprimal - in re-reading my post it was probably a bit terse ;-)

I don't know why I'm back, but I am - and I'm still not seeing this 'no comparison' on the $2800 vs. $2600 'crap pc'....so I'm going to break it down.

SUPERMICRO, X7DCA-L, LGA771 /2, Intel® 5100, 1333MHz FSB, DDR2-667 ECC 48GB /6, PCIe x16, SATA 3.0 Gbit/s RAID 5 /6, HDA, GbLAN /2, mATX, Retail board on PC

Don't know what the board is on the Mac Pro, but "Mac Pro systems support up to 32GB of 800MHz"

2.83 GHZ Harpertown - same on both (I can't find a 'higher speed' 2.83ghz Harpertown you're talking about)

2GB ECC Mem, 667 on PC, 800 on Mac

500GB 7200rpm Sata on PC, 320GB 7200rpm Sata on Mac.

Radeon HD 4670 512mb on PC, Radeon HD 2600 XT on Mac

20x DL Burner on PC, 16x DL Burner on Mac

Added a $200 fan to the PC to cool the 2 Processors.

2600 for PC, 2800 for Mac.

Obviously, everything else is set to none/blank except for the keyboard and mouse which I had to add to the PC.

So, where are you getting these numbers?

And P.S, Lian Li cases aren't cheap or 'white box' by any means.

Running OSX isn't a part of this argument, nor is noise, etc - though the case on the PC IS rated well for being quiet...as a matter of fact, one reviewer found it more quiet than an old Tivo.

Round 50? Or are you going to take your loss like a man instead of come up silly childish jabs at me (and my uncle, smarts, etc.) or with 100,000 other totally non-related reasons that the PC I've sourced is STILL somehow not configured the same, and 200 cheaper than your Apple?

Nyaaaa! it's no named white box crap, with a
'high end' generic mid tower case!
Nyaaaa! the memory on the mac is WAAAAY faster!
Nyaaaa! um um um, ohhhhh it can't run OsX! (yes, yes, you have a point there, dumba** - read my original comment regarding OSX).
Nyaaaa! something moronic about powertasking word and games, etc.
Nyaaaa! it's probably not as quiet as the Mac
Nyaaaa! you're oh so anti-apple emo!, your uncle made something in his garage from parts sourced at the local swap meet, nanny nanny boo boo stick your head in poo poo...etc. etc.

lol...grow the fu^& up, boss man.

The fact is, NOISE levels are important in audio processing!
Your mid-tower case still lacks sufficent or equivalent expansion.
The difference in the speed of ECC registered RAM is significant! As well as the cost!
And I don't vcare if yu care about OSX, it is a factor, as MANY high end vertical audio and vidoe processing apps do not run in Windows. Oh...but but but - its doesn't matter cause I say it doesn't is not a sufficient excuse dimwit.
And the price of an additional .1GHZ in a quad core XEON IS significant! And your source doesn't even offer it!

So selectively chose your no-name sourced online only box and compare it to a hybrid brick and mortar and online company who offers significantly better service options in addition to a computer with higher end CPUs and ECC registered RAM as you selectively choose what OS and apps and noise characteristics are important - after all, if your's doesn't have it - its not important! Coincidental, huh????

Your example is a no-name builder of generic PCs. And they do source white boxes. And the case on Mac blows a Lian Li away - a case that doesn't even have the edges buffed to prevent cuts!

And YOU conveniently cite lower end component selections for the Mac than are available as if that proves something - except that your box cannot source the same higher speed CPUs or RAM!

So, genius, why not compare one of the other equivalent manufacturer's boxes with the MacPro. But then your single quad core Pentium class extreme processor boxes are going for in excess of $6K! Sure are competitive.

So tell us, how many here have ever heard of your no-name source? Pretty amazing that you have to seek some no-name company to try to compete and you can't find a unit from an equivalent tier company that even comes close to the MacPro.

You're a really sore loser. This all came about because you asked to specifically source one that beats the 2799 Mac Pro...and that is what I did. You didn't say max it all out and see what's cheaper, you said....$2799 - don't change the rules because you lose. Spec for spec it MATCHES the Mac Pro. But now you're carrying on about noise, and a whole bunch of BS.

Cheap, white box, whatever you want to call it - it's sourced. You said it couldn't be, and I did. And if anyone wanted a machine like that, they'd find a place that will sell it to them for a good price (unless you're an Apple user).
I can't source the machine for 2799 at Dell because they don't sell it without a monitor or with crap a** video cards, so the price is bumped up.

But, I'm determined...so, go to Dell and configure them the same. There it's easy, The Mac Pro is ~ $200 more expensive :). Have Fun.

Dell = 7668 (I added a 24 inch monitor to the Dell system vs. the 22 inch because you'd b**** about it *you'd say "waaaaah! you sourced a 22 inch monitor and the mac pro offers a 23 inch!!!", so the Dell has a 24 inch and the Mac Pro has a 23 inch, and I won't b**** about it - because I'm not a punk.*)

Apple 7947, with TWENTY THREE inch Monitor. ;)

Dual Quad Core 3.00ghz Harpertown Proc. (1600mhz FSB) X5472, amirite?

2gb {800mhz] Mhz Ram on both machines

320gb Sata 7200 rpm Hard Drive

1.5gb Nvidia Quadro FX 5600 (the only video card that is the same on both sites)

16x DVD/RW

Dell doesn't offer a 'no monitor' option, so a 24inch monitor, I chose a 23 inch for the Apple Mac Pro (again, because you're a very sore loser and will proceed to make excuses and b**** about how 1 inch makes ALLLLLL the difference).

Enjoy.

Please go ahead and find something wrong now...I'm sure you will, lol.

Now for some more truth to detail, since you want to scrutinize.

I priced the Mac without OSX Server, I'm assuming that it comes with OSX by default, but if it doesn't then that's $499 for the OS.

The PC comes with a 3 year limited service warranty by default. The Mac Pro doesn't seem to come with service...it's *none* or Applecare for Mac Pro, which is $249.

So, I leave it to you to decide if you'd like to tack that on to the price of the Mac Pro or not....your rules, after all.

Ohhhhhh...as for the OSX thing, don't start, unless you completely missed it in my ORIGINAL comment to the article, which has degenerated into this mess. Here is my comment:

{"I think what we want to do is deliver an increasing level of value to these customers," Jobs told one analyst. "There are some customers which we choose not to serve. We don't know how to make a $500 computer that's not a piece of junk."

No, you'll build it for $500 and sell it for $1500. If Apple customers are smart and tech-saavy, then don't put forward the unmitigated gall to make comments like this, because they know why THEY are buying Apple products. There's already a crap ton of comparisons done that price Apple built and PC competetors for up to 400 less than the Apple product. So, just say that Apple customers are paying for the 'premium', ie: great Apple service and the ability to run OSX, because that is the reality of it.}

Now, just in case you missed it AGAIN, here you go...

"So, just say that Apple customers are paying for the 'premium', ie: great Apple service and the ability to run OSX, because that is the reality of it."