I especially like the phrase "unsubstantiated statements." it's not exactly a resounding no we didn't.

apparently there is a 1934 law, never reversed that prohibits e.g. telco's to do what they supposedly did. From the outside in view, i still think the merkens gave up their civil rights / rights on privacy with the Bush II administration....he's outperforming tricky d*** (Richard Nixon) in overstepping his executive powers and flagrantly ignoring the US laws. No US president has ever had such a low support in your history....sitting in front of a kindergarden class with a book upside down not moving after he got the 9/11 news

BTW, i think the Betanews forum needs some moderator that knocks off complete rampant off-topic comments, else it becomes impossible to develop a discussion on the subject!

So on the subject, there are more skeletons in the closet....counterattack is best defence, except, these NSA ONLY access rooms with COMMERCIAL equipment that can analyse data at 10GB per second....how easy would it be to pump the whole database across without the Telco's officially knowing, but then look at Lay / Fastow / Skilling. They claim the little soldiers did it without their knowledge. So who's in charge..... )>]

...what should the moderators do about unfounded ignorant opinions?

I think that the media as a whole needs to be more responsible in their reporting. It has become too competitive and over zealous.

"sitting in front of a kindergarden class with a book upside down not moving after he got the 9/11 news"

That was a chopped photo. If you need to base your rediculous ideas on faked photos and outlandish remarks, then perhaps the mods should take you to task?

Execute Order 66 - Declaration of a New Order

"...The United States will be reorganized into the first NEW WORLD EMPIRE, for a safe and secure society!"

The corporate world sucks.

The Government sucks less.

I wrote complaining to AT&T and there response was not a denial verbatim below.

Response:

"AT&T has a long history of vigorously protecting customer privacy.
Our
customers expect, deserve and receive nothing less than our fullest
commitment to their privacy."

"We also have an obligation to assist law enforcement and other
government agencies responsible for protecting the public welfare,
whether it be an individual or the security interests of the entire
nation."

"We prize the trust our customers place in us. If and when AT&T is
asked
to help, we do so strictly within the law and under the most stringent
conditions. Beyond that, we don't comment on matters of national
security."

AT&T Corporate Resolution Group.

What right have we lost? We have lost the right of CHOICE. We have a diminished right to privacy and the right of unresonable search and seizure. Just as the courts have said that the government is forbidden to use advanced thermal scanning on private residences without a court order they should not allow spying on millions of US citizen's without a court order. Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness are don't include spying on our own citzens without cause. Too many people have fought and died for these principles to have short sightedness trample on our rights. I have lived in countries where you had no rights and I will not sit by silently while others say "no big deal". When you deny one person his rights you dimish the rights of all men. Non-citizens should have no expectation of sharing the full rights we enjoy, but citizens should demand it. That includes the Telcoms. If they did not share data they should demand a retraction. A dollar amount for supposed loss of business would be impossible to prove but clearing their reputation should be in big bold print on page one.

The telecoms do not know where they stand in the PUBLIC EYE. The records that they have are phone numbers. When they find a pattern they then pursue. The real problem here is secrecy. However secrecy is needed in SECRET OPS.The issue now is is there appropriate oversight to prevent abuses. I would also say when you are dead you have no rights!!!! So as long as there is proven oversight let them do their job. God knows they havent in the past so I understand the distrust believe me I really do.Just be patient.A good man General Hayden is taking the post. Even though he was an archtect of the NSA plan he is very flexible and is willing to prove that they have done nothing illegal or wrong to the American people. So now that all 33 members of the comm. have access I say just wait and see. If thereare any abuses they will be accounted for.

you talk about rights,and say non us citizen should not have any look at your own words, in Europe we have the human rights directive it covers all people of all nationals who come here,you need to get your thinking cap on and realise that all people of this earth should have all the rights ,we had 2 world ,wars, we don't want a 3rd one this whole earth needs to work towards a total federated earth and all be as one. time is ruining out for resources, global warming stupid wars we need to address famine ,disease ,and this is to every one on this planent,including you

What about the abuse of the SSN and our driver licenses, as they track to much and they can take away the licenses for little to no reason. In the 50's you could only lose your licenses if you lost it by a traffic violation, now you lose it for pissing in your neighbors pot. Your SSN is used to track everything, not just your taxes as it was meant for. These are out of control and this Telecom crap will go the same way. As everything our gov does. This is NOT another terrorist fighting tool, but another way to DICTATE us. We are no longer the land of the free and the home of the brave, but the land of the blind and the home of the fat kids.

I know this is a dead horse but "IF" USA Today cannot prove their allegations, they should be held financially accountable. I'm sick of the media reporting rumor as fact without verifying their sources - it happens MUCH too often.

OK, now we are getting somewhere.

USA Today, is media, yes they should be held accountable. They were obviously wrong, or their source was. I agree, they should pay.

Accusing someone of doing something (even if it wasn't wrong) is still reprehensible.

Can't disagree with that, so long as it applies to ALL media. FOX would go broke in a week.

and the new york times wouldn't last a day :)

i dunno, them watch dog groups are there for a reason, i'd like these situations ot be reviewed somehow

complacency and ignorance only means higher taxes be it the actual taxes or anything else you buy passed down to you, mmm

"They were obviously wrong, or their source was. I agree, they should pay."

We don't know that yet. I am sure it will be some time before we hear if it is true or not. Right now it is a he said/she said argument.

On a side note, yes, I think if they got it wrong and KNEW they were wrong they should be held responsible. Hell, if every story that was wrong resulted in financial implications there probably wouldn't be many media outlets left. It wasn't too long ago that Rathergate was making headlines.

It is impossible to prove what someone KNOWS unless they have acted on that knowledge...or cracked. For that reason, I believe that whether they knew it was wrong or not, they must be held responsible. Now, if they can prove that one of their "credible" sources misled them or gave them false information, that may s*** the blame...

-sigh- Well, I think we had enough of the NSA stuff.

One last thing of note, for those of you that have a problem with privacy.

Tell me one liberty you have lost as a result of this "inquisition". Just one.

Because I can tell you right now, NOTHING has changed. Looking at phone records isn't a problem, they aren't a spammer looking to sell you stuff, this the NSA trying to find holes in the security. That's IT!

Why is it so hard to believe?

And take a look at the government, you don't think they already DON'T know who you are? you pay taxes, you pay rent, you pay into FICA, SS, and you probably have Credit Cards, and a mortgage. They already HAVE the info they need, IF they were trying to sell your privacy, but they aren't.

ALL they want is the phone records to show who you are making contact with. ITs everyone! Another last thing, if you aren't hiding anything then there shouldn't be a problem. This can ALSO protect you, ask for a copy of the phone records they submit.. so for those of you that are paranoid, if they alter them (for what reason, only delusional people can say) you will have undisputable proof to the contrary.

This isn't some 3rd party agency looking to sell you life insurance, or invite you to some local charity event, this is the GOVERNMENT agency in charge of SECURITY, HELLO!?!?!?!

'If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear'.

As a principle, it's reasonable. In practice, abuses take place, and the above quote is the clarion call of many an oppressive regime, including McCarthyism.

If you believe the government genuinely has your interests at heart, support it (I know you mostly do in these forums). But when just badmouthing The Prez can get you a visit from the Feds (it can), things aren't looking good as regards a government that wants the right to know more and more about what its citizens are saying and who they're saying it to. I'm personally very encouraged that people want to know MUCH more about this kind of creeping surveillance before ratifying it with their silence.

This is a long way from merely accusing someone of being a communist, and that person has to appear in court to defend their citizenship. That was another paranoid era, and it is passed. Abuse takes place, yes, but if you want to assume that everytime you fart in Prez Bush direction, it can land you jail, you are sadly mistaken, and like the other poor denizens, you think they are looking up every crevice you have.

Its a phone record. Nothing more, you are looking for something that just isn't there to see. Its not even conceivable to think that phone records are private, especially when there are so many other ways I can find out who you are.

Let's illustrate one right now.

I can call someone at Betanews, tell me who is logged in, and their last IP address. From that IP address, I can determine your ISP, and where you are located in the country, at least that last place you logged in. I can then back track, and find that if you are at home, I can then find out (each IP address is unique) where you live. I can then find out from there, anything I want about your account. At this point I don't give a s*** about your phone number, because I have the other information I need to find you and therefore make your life hell.

The phone number, is the LEAST of your problems. Whenever they investigate a crime and someone is murdered, a witness says they saw someone using a phone to call 911, but they didn't identify themself.. Now, they have to research ALL the phone records at that phone booth or that mobile phone, or every call that was made from towers in that area to 911 in a certain time period.

Its the SAME thing. NSA is investigating crime (which as we all know, 9/11 still is unresolved). you don't think its just a remote possibility that maybe (acting on a tip or recent technology changes) that MAYBE they can track down people that are otherwise hidden?

Illegal aliens don't have a SSN, therefore some backtracking is necessary to find these people. How do we do that.. well duh, PHONE records would be a good place to start.

Let's see who they are calling, who is calling them, and where they are calling from.

I still ask the question.

WHAT LIBERTY or PRIVACY have you forfeited, you STILL have yet to answer a simple, basic, damn QUESTION.

All I hear is rhetoric, waaa... the government did this, waaaaa.. the goverment wants right to do that..

WHAT?!?.. *WHAT* LIBERTY - PRIVACY - OR FREEDOM have you *LOST*.

Quit damn stalling, ANSWER the damn question.

Thank you for finally pointing out that sitting on your ass, acting like Britney Spears ("we should all just trust our president") is NOT a sign of true genius.

Abuse does take place, our history is full of tragic incidents. I'm not saying there is any abuse taking place, but I'm damned sure not going to close my eyes and wait for it. As for the oft cited checks and balances, they don't work when one ideology rules and completely tunes out opposing ideas.

I do like the way market principles are working out here, tho. Don't like what a company does, spank their bottomline and see how they like it.

What liberty, privacy or freedom have I lost?

What, you mean today?

Rijp, if this was an isolated event rather than a series of creeping measures being rolled out to keep the American public 'safely monitored at all times', you'd have a reasonable point. But it's just this week's tightening of the screw. It's just this week's Patriot Act-driven intrusion. And it is an intrusion, since even the government used to need injunctions to OFFICIALLY get this info.

From USA today (http://www.usatoday.com/..._x.htm?csp=34&ord=2):

"...the public's tolerance for this sort of invasion of privacy may be topping out. It may be people are starting to say: 'When is the other shoe going to drop? What else are they doing?' "

About two-thirds say they're concerned that the federal government might be gathering other information about the public, such as bank records and data on Internet use, or listening in on domestic phone conversations without obtaining a warrant.

Two-thirds are concerned that the database will identify innocent Americans as possible terrorism suspects."

Rhetoric, BTW? Here are some people proving the old adage about paranoia....

http://www.progressive.org/mag_mcgym
http://alexander.gnn.tv/...vestigated_for_sedition
http://www.smirkingchimp...forum=4&topic=19538

Yes, maybe you're right, this NSA stuff is just a pebble, but unfortunately for your POV, it seems to be part of an avalanche. And FYI 51% of Americans feel as I do on the matter, just a tad more that got your favorite Prez elected in the first place; see:

http://www.usatoday.com/..._x.htm?csp=34&ord=2

I'm sorry, but the RIAA has more time spent in privacy tapping then the damn government does!

You're quoting a poll from the magazine that published a story that was full of lies and half truth's.......ok, 51% it is then.

Plus or minus 4%...

Oh right. Since when has any government agency actually done anything efficently and productively? FEMA anyone?

Its not about them selling this information. Its about having this information somewhere that, *gasp* can be hacked into and then sold. These contracts end up going to the cheapest bidder. Does that make anyone feel safer?

A copy of the phone records they submit? That would be great had we *actually* known they were sending the info in the first place! How can I request something I had no idea they were doing in the first place?

Oh and the one liberty we lost, right to privacy.

how exactly can they abuse records of who you called and when?

you know traditionally if you are innocent it works out that the more data they have on you the more innocent you will look, not the other way around. i mean if they just have that you called xx in germany at 4 pm they may not know whats up, but say if they knew that you had a sister in that part of germany and you just got back from say the hospital after having aa kid, you wont look as bad now would you? i dont see how you think that them having information on you is going to make you look guilty, as most wrongly sentanced people are sentanced because of a lack of data, not becausee of an abundance of damning evidence.

Hi Rjjp and Silentmaster!!!

I did some thinking about what rjjp said since the last time I wrote, and I think there is nothing to fear about the phone records since Pat Robertson has ordered all 33 members of the committee to be allowed unfettered oversight. My problem per say is not giving the Gov what they want and need, it is when they get it without proper oversight. I feel better with 6 times more congressmen watching, case closed. CONFIRM HAYDEN he is a real patriot.

If there was appropriate oversight would you think differently?
Actually it would be the 4rth that is under "attack". The country is concerned because it has never had to go through this type of scenario. There will have to be a compromise between total privacy and total monitoring. I think Rjjp is smart but does not take into effect the human element of "past indiscretions" of government. There is a problem with loose lips at the CIA , and a problem of an inability to grievance. This is a problem. I think Hayden even though he is a Bush a** kisser is a pro. Time will tell. He has already addressed the desire for more oversight and has put the hammer down that if confirmed leaks stop. Thats what Im talking about, compromise!!!

Rjjp, you can do all that but you can not wield the power of law enforcement! IE You get all the info then come to my house and bang you Dead!!! NSA agents? Well lets see some a****** has it in for you abuses his authority and gives "bad intelligence" (I say that as an oxymoron) Agents kick down your door in front of your wife and kids dog gets shot neihbors think you are some kind of serial killer. Then as long as they dont plant something to cover their asses, you get an apology and are told you have no legal recourse . Of course this IS a EXTREME scenario except it happens in real life to real people. Oversight and warrants help prevent this situation. If they need every record in the world they should get it as long as they can prove to a seperate agency that it does not infringe, on any right.

'If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear'.

So by that logic, the police can search anywhere anytime, anyplace, for any reason.

Are you willing to live with that?

I didn't think so.

By twosheds
"Rijp, if this was an isolated event rather than a series of creeping measures being rolled out to keep the American public 'safely monitored at all times', you'd have a reasonable point. But it's just this week's tightening of the screw. It's just this week's Patriot Act-driven intrusion."

I really don't need to add anything as you have said it well.

Each of the "intrusions" the Bush II administration has shoved through, masquerading as being 'for our safety', is quite small. A little offensive, but ya, it's for national security. So we shouldn't mind, OK.

But the problem is that there have been so many of these small 'intrusions over the last 5 years it looks like we are being prepared for a new America. An America run by a creeping totalitarian style regime.

Remember, they only need to infringe our rights by a little each day, or week, or month, but soon we find we have none at all. Every journey starts with just one step. Followed by the next, and the next .. . .

I have read your essay with dismay, and you beleave, you can do it with out ending up in heap load of sxx your self that's not what America stands for read you constitutions.

Oh goody. Here we go again.

I'ma gonna sit this one out, guys. Ya'll know my stance on the NSA bit.

Have fun!

Awwwwww...c'mon, the water's fine and the sharks are circling.

Uhhh....

My flame-retardent suit is at the cleaners?

Mommy, my bottomline hurts!

Only idiots would drop Verizon and Bellsouth, under a simply implication they did wrong. A couple of people on other message boards claimed to have "dropped" verizon, only because they THOUGHT they collaborated.

Verizon, even when they denied it, STILL lost customers, so who are these idiots? If Verizon is hiding something, I don't think they would care if it was over something as trivial as a phone record.

If they volunteer the information now, its better than to wait and have the NSA subpoena the records, because THEN it would look suspicious. Why people don't take this vantage point, that is retarded.

So yes, their bottom line probably was hurt, because people and their fickle behavior need an overhaul.

I'd never drop Verizon JUST because they gave it up. I dropped Verizon because Vonage was a better deal and Verizon's service, support and corporate attitude suck. Opposing net neutrality and shilling off their records just added to the attractiveness of the transaction. Actually, Verizon provides enough reasons to drop them to make it a very smart decision.

Now, on to more important things. Have you gotten treatment for your erectile dysfunction yet?