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CES Trend #1: If the format war is over, what has Blu-ray really won?

By Scott M. Fulton, III, BetaNews

January 12, 2008, 4:11 PM

Scott Fulton, BetaNews: We really didn't have enough stories on the format war this week, only a few dozen. And I figured that perhaps to make it an even thirty (or was it forty?) we should close the gap with one more.

The huge trend we saw this week was the move away from the format war. Well prior to Warner Bros.' announcement, it appeared the major CE manufacturers were working to build the functionality some of them had once planned for their high-definition disc players, into their HDTV displays and set-top boxes instead. A great many of them -- with a few prominent exceptions, such as Sony -- were about ready to write off their losses and move on.

And honestly, who can blame them? This farce has gone on for too long, and the differences about which both sides are still arguing are not only negligible, but growing more insignificant by the day. For instance, the Internet functionality and updated interactivity layer being built into Blu-ray Profile 2.0 are already being superseded by systems-on-a-chip planned now for the HDTVs to which they would connect.

To say Jackie Emigh's been digging into some new angles on this story is to say the New England Patriots are scoring some first downs these days. Jackie

Jacqueline Emigh, BetaNews: Scott, doesn't the timing of Warner's retraction of Blu-ray support -- just days before CES -- seem a bit strange to you? And isn't that about as odd as the seemingly miraculous rebound in Blu-ray sales from November to December?

At this point, it's kind of hard to believe that it was only this past November that Sony CEO Sir Howard Stringer grimly declared the war a stalemate. Industry figures were showing that HD DVD had managed to close its sales gap with Blu-ray in a couple of weeks simply by lowering its prices.

But by December, Stringer was a happy man. Buoyed by an investment estimated at between $500 million and $2.5 billion from Dubai International Capital (DIC)-- a fund controlled by Sheikh Mohammed bin Rashid al-Maktuom, ruler of Dubai -- Sony had cut its own pricing on the Blu-ray-enabled PlayStation, and sales had surged back up again in time for Black Friday.

And oh, by the way, a few days after DIC announced its investment in Sony, DIC named Nobuyki Idei -- former chief executive of Sony's chief advisor board -- to the board of its own Global Strategic Equities Fund.

And here we are around six weeks later, after a horrific experience for HD DVD at CES, with some folks already ready to sound the death knell for Toshiba's format.

But ideally, technology wars should be decided on the sole basis of a product's ability to meet the need of its users. And here, Blu-ray and HD DVD each have their advantages and disadvantages.

Blu-ray, for example, is now in the throes of moving from Profile 1.0 to the incompatible Profile 1.1 to Profile 2.0, a format which is expected to introduce still further incompatibilities.

And although Sony and its partners stand to pick up additional revenues from users who decide to upgrade to newer Blu-ray drives, there's every possibility that some of them might migrate over to the HD DVD side, too.

Moreover, Blu-ray products are reportedly more costly to make than those that follow the HD DVD format -- and in many cases today, the price of a Playstation doesn't even cover Sony's manufacturing costs.

So if Blu-ray is in fact going to win the war, it'd really better happen fast, to prevent the kind of price erosion that might interfere drastically with production and profitability.

Yet from a product standpoint, Blu-ray does hold one clear advantage over HD DVD, and it is this: Essentially, Blu-ray disks can hold more data.

Here, Sony seems to have learned well from experience. If you've heard about the old videotape wars between VMS and Sony's Betamax format, you might know that one of the main reasons why Sony lost that particular war revolved around a one-hour tape time for Betamax, versus two or even three hours for the competing VHS.

So, I say, may the best product win the Blu-ray/HD DVD war -- regardless of financial investments and real or rumored studio defections.

Scott Fulton: Yes, Jackie, and thank you for that lead-in: I'm still wondering whether either product can genuinely remain the best product in its category for too long. To that end, I have a theory I'm working on. But I'd like to try it out first on our CES analyst, Sharon Fisher.

Sharon, we're always hearing about companies pledging to "push" the envelope. An old Chuck Yeager phrase. I've always said that in order to create a new platform, you have to "break" the envelope. You can evolve platforms incrementally, but to justify a new one, there needs to be a complete new reason for its existence.

Sharon Fisher, BetaNews Senior CES Analyst: I'd go along with that.

Scott: Why build a new interstate system, for instance, unless our cars can fly now?

Sharon: Heh. You're going to pull in the Freepers with their talk of a Canada-Mexico highway.

Scott: When Comcast advanced its fat pipes model, and demonstrated the idea of turning on the TV selecting what you want to see as opposed to what's on, that changes everything for me. That deals with the very nature of television itself. That's when I heard an envelope rip.

Sharon: I suppose. On the other hand, I'm a big fan of serendipity. I'll watch a movie on TV when I have the same movie in my rack.

Scott: True, but imagine the peace we would have in our lives if the few hours we do spend watching television were watching the good television we want rather than wasting our time with whatever's on.

Sharon: Part of the reason I don't get cable is that I know I'd watch History Channel all day, just because I could.

Scott: My wife would say my 24-hour channel would feature photon torpoedoes.

But think about it: The structure of many people's lives in America revolve around television. The real reason why evening news ratings have dropped is because people work later. The reason why morning news ratings climb is because they go to work earlier.

Then there's prime-time, a three-hour block for most networks. There's an industry devoted to that.

Sharon: Television used to be a social phenomenon, too. Everyone would get together to watch Uncle Miltie.

Scott: And there's "The Tonight Show." Proof right there, viewing habits revolve around time. Pat Weaver, the great former president of NBC and Sigourney Weaver's dad pretty much invented television around the concept of the clock.

Well, along comes Comcast. Granted, they're not really the first to suggest this, but they're the first with the know-how and the capital to actually pull this off.

Sharon: On the other hand, look at what the writer's strike has done to TV. All reality shows, all the time.

Scott: "Reality." Glad I don't live there.

Sharon: I know. When I want reality, I turn off the TV.

With Comcast's tru2way, television could become much more participatory. Think of real-time "America's Funniest Home Videos," sponsored by YouTube.

Scott: But the big suggestion is that it may become feasible for programs to become recorded entities waiting for our perusal. And yes, participatory.

But imagine how that changes the entire industry. The business model of entertainment production.

Sharon: How would they promote them?

Scott: If you didn't have to watch CSI any more...why would you???

Sharon: Hey. Some people like CSI.

Scott: So much of network entertainment is placeholder material in-between a few moments of quality. If there were no revenue to be derived from placeholder material, if people could refuse it if it were offered, there would be a huge depression for the entertainment industry.

Sharon: You know, that's not what I'm worried about. I'm worried about the opposite: the few gems out there being overwhelmed with waves of dreck. As I pointed out earlier this week, Comcast's big promotion of HD was...Norbit.

Scott: Waves and waves of dreck....disguised as Eddie Murphy. But wouldn't people reject the waves of dreck out of hand?

Sharon: I don't think people would refuse what was offered, no. It might be a big boon to the sports industry.

Scott: True! A lot of new sports would get new viewers. Softball.

Sharon: Curling!

Scott: Cricket!

Sharon: I shudder to think about the kids' programming, though...as the mother of someone who eats, breathes, and sleeps Hannah Montana. She's put out that I won't spend $3000 and airfare on a Hannah Montana ticket.

Scott: And on that note of nightmare...I bid you good luck with that, Sharon.

Next: Scott Fulton on the lessons of history unlearned.

Continued. . .
1 | 2 | Next >>

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By needforn

posted Mar 24, 2008 - 5:57 AM

urls to the latest world news.needfornews.com

Score: 0

By needforn

edited Mar 24, 2008 - 5:23 AM

urls to the latest world news.
needfornews.com

Score: 0

By siryak

posted Jun 26, 2008 - 9:59 PM

Just for spamming I will be sure to avoid it.

Score: 0

By wellnow1101

edited Jan 15, 2008 - 11:47 AM

I personaly will not spend one penny on Blu-Ray anything. The movies are 50% too expensive and the players are 6000% too expensive. I'll stick with HD DVD / DVD.

The guys with all those dollar signs glittering in thier eyes(and trust me, they see only the huge profits they can make) will push, cajole and grease the palms of studio exec's etc, etc... to make this happen. It almost succeeded with BETA. I held my ground then, I'll hold my ground now. If I want HD movies I'll pay the cable company. Hollywood and Sony can go pound sand. I refused to buy BETA. I refuse to buy Blu-Ray. I work too hard to squander my salary on overpriced and over hyped electronics to make others rich and allow them to dictate what I watch and track what I watch.

Now, if I could only get a chance to Taser the Sony CEO in the testicles ...... MANNN ....I'd feeel SOOOOO much better.

Score: 0

By codeaero

edited Jan 15, 2008 - 10:32 AM

My god this is a HD DVD biased article.. Blu-ray is the future whether you like it or not. Not only for movies but as the next storage media after DVD.

Score: 0

By Hocuspokus

edited Jan 14, 2008 - 1:52 PM

The short answer is 'nothing'.

Blu-ray movie & hardware sales remain deeply unimpressive.

With Blu-ray's (supposedly) final spec profile 2.0 players months (if not years) off
(we all know how long profile 1.1 was delayed)
who knows when they will ever have a range of affordable decently spec'd players appealing to the mass-market.

Time's run out.

The truth is that Blu-ray will not just be 'the next DVD'.
It's already too late for that.

HD TV services offering HD all the time are the real winners here, followed by SD DVD staying the huge seller it is & downloads will be the next largest segment.

Blu-ray will not escape the niche.

Score: 0

By forgie

posted Jan 14, 2008 - 1:31 PM

Don't care if Bluray has "won". I won't touch either format until I can get all titles I want in that format and can buy a player for less than $200.

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By dvferret

posted Jan 15, 2008 - 8:30 AM

and movies cheaper than 25 to 30 bucks a peice.

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By nt300

edited Jan 14, 2008 - 9:20 AM

Everybody BUY & Recommending HD DVD players & movies. We all can further contribute to HD DVD's succeess.

The last thing I am going to do is recommend an obsolete profile plagued Blu-Ray format. Sony can keep their Blu-Ray, I'll stick with HD DVD thank U.

Sony is using the PS3 and its gamers to keep Blu-Ray alive. So, don't expect the PS3 to be a good game system, Sony does not care, all they care about is the PS3 as a movie player.

Blu-Ray hopefully will die a terrible death. This is not for the consumer but rather for the money hungry CE manufacturers. Buy Blu-Ray now and suffer the incompatibilities that "WILL" come with it.
What kind of business are Sony & the BDA running here? Ripping people off without any options to upgrade? This is why HD DVD should & will win the Hi Def war. HD DVD stands for Consumers where as Blu-Ray stands to RIP YOU OFF...

Score: 0

By GadgetPig

posted Jan 14, 2008 - 4:23 PM

The new HD-A3 prices are INDEED a sweet deal! For less than the cost of an Oppo (or slightly more than run-of-the-mill sd upscalers), you get a GREAT upscaling dvd player with bonus ability to play hd-dvd moves (which btw are currently selling at 14.99 at amaz_n)!.

Ok, if the hd-dvd group can get movies to stay at 14.99-19.99, and standalones creep down to 99.00 again, format war is not quite done yet!

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By Steve Austin

posted Jan 14, 2008 - 2:45 PM

Do you want to wipe that foam away from your mouth...

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By Adrian79

posted Jan 14, 2008 - 4:10 PM

lol, that guy up there is pissed! cracks me up, i love my ps3.. watch movies on it? nah.. i bought it ONLY to play games, thanks!!

hd-dvd players just dropped in price! so no format war in my head.. i just buy the new hddvd player and then if i ever have an urge to play a movie (which i never do) i have the choice of bluray(ps3) or the new toshiba :-)

if i didnt already own the ps3, then i would buy a hybrid player.

there are pros/cons on each format.. deal with them!

Score: 0

By GadgetPig

edited Jan 14, 2008 - 8:50 PM

Hybrid players will eventually be affordable and common on all standalone or console players. May take 1 or 2 more years. Every "new" DVD player today plays DVD-R and DVD+R. BD and HD-DVD will be no different. Time and technology eventually heals and unites all formats.

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By yountmj

posted Jan 14, 2008 - 11:02 PM

Sadly, it didn't do much for SACD and DVD-Audio... though several universal DVD players handle both formats (and many others) quite nicely.

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By zapped

edited Jan 14, 2008 - 9:04 AM

To me the only that loses is the customer if Blu-Ray wins the format war. Why would I buy a Blu-Ray player that cannot be upgraded? Sure put your stickers on the boxes, but for how long if ever. Even at that I smell a rat with Sony and the Blu-Ray. I mean an upgradable ps3 for $399 with only movies and no games? So why would I buy any other device to play Blu-Ray movies at this time? Even Blu-Ray movies cost more by as much as $10. I know Sony is supposed to be taking a loss on the ps3 but not 1 game in the box just movies. At that we should all boycott the whole mess. I know I am and hope the people who can return their players do. We should let them know how wrong this is. I mean let everyone who buys know up front that either the HD DVD may go away like the beta or the Blu-Ray may not work so well in the near future.

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By mjm01010101

posted Jan 14, 2008 - 10:13 AM

I'll continue to buy...neither. Too expensive. Not that I don't have money, I just don't see investing in a format that might not be around 5 years from now as worth my time/money.

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By PC_Tool

posted Jan 14, 2008 - 10:46 AM

^^ Point.

Score: 0

By asarius

posted Jan 14, 2008 - 6:34 AM

On top of that, consumers should expect punishment for tinkering with their Blu-ray players, as many have done with current DVD players, for instance to remove regional coding. The new, Internet-connected and secure players will report any "hack" and the device can be disabled remotely. See also here http://loadingvault.com/search.php?q=Blu-ray

Score: 0

By pridewalker

posted Jan 14, 2008 - 2:18 PM

The short answer to this is BULLSH!T.

Regardless of the studios attitude that you don't buy the media, you lease it, you OWN the player. For them to spy on you, and dictate the terms for how you use your property, is crap...plain and simple.

The majority of the hacks for standard DVD players are nothing more than unlocking the region coding; it's only real use is to play movies from other countries. If you're importing movies, that means you're paying for them, and you're increasing the studios cash flow.

Score: 0

By SlapShot

posted Jan 14, 2008 - 6:10 AM

question: If the format war is over, what has Blu-ray really won?

answer: a niche market

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By yountmj

posted Jan 14, 2008 - 9:14 AM

Best answer yet.

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By slinkys_delsol

posted Jan 14, 2008 - 2:15 AM

If they are backing out I see Paramount and Dreamworks continuing to support (Not push) HD-DVD, but I would imagine that you will see them getting their hands into BLU-Ray as well and eventually after "Fore filling their Obligation" pushing into the BLU-Ray Market.

I still think HD-DVD can have a purpose (Storage Media, Games for XBOX 360, Etc. Verbatim just announced the release of HD-DVD-R AND RW Discs, 15GB in 30 Minutes) things of that nature. But with that Microsoft even stated that they woudl put a BR Drive in the 360. Lets remember, Microsoft is a software compnay, not Hardware. It may have thier name on it, but they would rather have soemone else build the XBOX360 and they will just deal with the games. They lose $$$ on every 360 they product, but the game is almost entirely profit.

I own a PS3, but own no BLU-Ray movies. I really wanted to see what was going to happen before I started spending $$$ on something that was either going to be the next wave or a Collectors Item.

I would think by XMAS 2008 their current library of BLU-Ray Titles which is small in both the Movie and Game Genre's will be expansive with what has happened.

BLU-Ray is still an expensive media market overall (Players, Recordable Drives, Media). And now that a decision has more or less been made, BLU-Ray will be in Demand and when there is a Demand, the prices will stay High.

The $399 PS3 is still the Value Item in the BLU-Ray player market when you think of it, and this will push that as well.

The PS3's 1.2 Million in Sales over the 2007 Holiday Season helped make this decision for the Movie Studios. The WII can't play BLU-Ray / HD-DVD or Regular DVDs. XBOX needs an accessory to play HD-DVD's. PS3 is ready to go on all fronts and is updateable when new Firmware comes out unlike most Home Player Units.

Overall, Media failures on one front do find homes on others. When the DVD came out we all wrote off CD's when in fact it was not DVD at all that is making CD's go away, Broadband is what is making CD's go away.

BLU-Ray can take one less on from HD-DVD, soem HD-DVD Sets comes with the HD Version on one side of the Disc and the Standard DVD on the other. BLU-Ray should consider this as well rather then making 35 Editions of each movie.

Score: 0

By Setian^Stalker

posted Jan 14, 2008 - 6:33 PM

"If they are backing out I see Paramount and Dreamworks continuing to support (Not push) HD-DVD, but I would imagine that you will see them getting their hands into BLU-Ray as well and eventually after "Fore filling their Obligation" pushing into the BLU-Ray Market."

A sensible thought :)
Time will tell I guess

Score: 0

By the artist

posted Jan 14, 2008 - 12:33 AM

MAKE YOUR ARTICLES SHORTER, BETANEWS!

I CAN'T SPEND SO MUCH TIME READING YOUR FUNNY CHATS.

BE MORE CONCISE.

Score: 0

By Hellcat_M

posted Jan 13, 2008 - 5:56 PM

None of my friends,family or I have bought either format yet. Until the war is 100% over I probably won't. 1) BR players are still way to expensive to buy and if what was said is true that its more expensive to make a BR player than an HD-DVD player then it'll take a LONG while before BR players get as cheap as DVD players are now. 2) You may be able to hold more on a BR disk than an HD-DVD disk but who know what may happen in the coming weeks. Maybe someone will come up with a disk that can play on HD-DVD and hold twice as much info. Technology is always changing. 3)The war isn't over until one company backs down and it looks like Toshiba and MS aren't backing down quite yet. HD-DVD does have one thing going for it and thats price. If something happened and suddenly HD-DVD won the war I could go out and buy an HD-DVD, but if its true and BR won the war I still wouldn't be able to afford the over priced player. No matter which side wins I'd probably wait a while to make sure all the updates are compatible with with all the disks I'd want to buy. I feel sorry for the people who bought early BR players and now have to buy new ones because the old ones can't play newer disks. I never buy into new tech because I know changes are going to be made and things need to be ironed out, I guess when you're rich you can afford to do stupid things. It took me a while to get a flat panel monitor because I wanted one that had a quick response time for video games. I haven't bought an HDTV yet because I know the closer it gets to 2009 (when all analog signals are going to be turned off), the cheaper HDTV's will get and by then also they'll have better picture quality than they do even now, plus maybe big screen OLED's will come out around that time or at least hear more about them. See I'm more of the thought its better to wait and see what happens. Right now I'm happy with my Standard DVD's and tube set. Yes I'd like an HDTV and some sort of HD DVD (weather it be BF or HD-DVD), but I know things are likely to change and me and millons of other people can't afford to put money down that they won't change. So I wait, and all in all I'm ok with that because I see how trends were in the past and I see how things will probably end up in the future. So all of you can talk about who won and who lost and I'll just sit back and read and if things change in a major way I'll just laugh because I waited.

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By fewt

posted Jan 13, 2008 - 3:31 PM

As long as you can still get these:

http://www.amazon.com/To...d=1200256215&sr=8-1
(Toshiba A3 @ $139)

The war won't be over. Sorry folks.

Score: 0

By Steve Austin

posted Jan 13, 2008 - 5:25 PM

The only problem is, you soon won't have anything to play on it :-(

Score: 0

By fewt

posted Jan 13, 2008 - 6:31 PM

You mean it doesn't play DVDs? WTF, why in the hell did I buy this thing?

Oh, yeah it does. My bad.

My local blockbuster: HD-DVDs, AND DVDs. Netflix: HD-DVDs and DVDs. I think I'm ok, but thanks for the concern.

Score: 0

By Steve Austin

posted Jan 14, 2008 - 3:13 AM

Wow that's alot of money for a DVD player...

Score: 0

By SGD

posted Jan 14, 2008 - 3:57 PM

For you it is, we all saw your cheap as$ system.

Score: 0

By PC_Tool

posted Jan 14, 2008 - 10:08 AM

You mean for an upconverting, HDMI, HD-DVD capable DVD player?

Nah, pretty good price, actually. Though many got it for $99.

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By foxfyre

edited Jan 13, 2008 - 2:06 PM

So the fanboys rejoice and the public sits on their wallets and says "Who Cares?" and holds onto their DVDs and $59 1080p upscaling DVD players.

Neither BR (nor HD-DVD) present a compelling reason to invest in a format with such a limited catalog for a marginal improvement in quality - especially as it is AUDIO that makes the home theater experience 'theater'.

Fanboys can rejoice, but they remind me of the same SACD vs DVD-A debates as they debated over which was better as they stand oh so proudly in front of their 5ft of shelf space - as folks try to move around them on their way to the 300ft of standard DVD shelf space next to them.

Yup. You won.
Now let's hear the whine begin as to why you remain a tiny niche product. Oh yeah....as Sony said as to why they released an immature incompatible profile 1.0 product: "It's HD-DVD's fault."
ROFLMAO

Yawn.

Score: 0

By aredo

posted Jan 14, 2008 - 3:27 AM

"marginal improvement in quality" ?! What are you talking about ? Did you ever watch a BD-50 AVC H.264 movie on a PS3 connected to a 1080p plasma or LCD panel?
Probably not, otherwise you wouldn't be writing such silly statements. Anyone can see the huge quality difference between upscaled SDTV content and native 1080p HDTV one.

Score: 0

By yountmj

posted Jan 14, 2008 - 9:17 AM

Huge?

*laughs*

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By BobWang

posted Jan 13, 2008 - 2:14 PM

Precisely.
I can easily afford to replace my entire collection with HD-DVD, OR Blu-ray.
In fact, I started to; then I realized "That's STUPID!"

http://i159.photobucket..../BobWangPhotos/Amex.jpg

http://i159.photobucket....ngPhotos/CapitalOne.jpg

Score: 0

By treworld

posted Jan 14, 2008 - 3:26 PM

You sure like to show off your income, huh, BobWang. Can you show off your credit card numbers next time? Infact, just scan your credit cards and show us an image of each one of them. Thnx.

Score: 0

By yountmj

edited Jan 14, 2008 - 11:19 PM

I'm sure that was intended to be a humorous response. At any rate, I'm hoping his point rang loud and clear...

Money does not seem to be a problem for him. He clearly has a passion for movies. Yet, he is somewhat reluctant to blindly take the plunge and invest heavily into either one of these formats for very valid reasons. I would imagine those very same reasons are why the adoption rates of both formats have been relatively unimpressive among millions of other consumers worldwide.

Sure, they are selling... but not nearly at the rate they could have been 1½ years ago had there not been a ridiculous format war to begin with.

Tonight, I saw first-hand the evidence of the decreasing demand for physical media at my local FYE store. Walking by the front of the store in the mall, I could not help but notice the 50% off sales prices on most all of their DVD box sets and single film releases, CD music, etc. I purchased the entire Star Trek motion picture 'Special Collector's Edition' DVD box set for half price ($45 instead of $90). I asked the clerk why such low prices, and he stated that retail sales have been rather dismal, and the demand is simply nowhere near what it used to be.

Face it... the days of digital downloads and streaming are closer than we all realize.

Score: 0

By BobWang

posted Jan 14, 2008 - 4:35 PM

Wonder if people would rather be rich like me, or bitter like you?

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By pitdingo2

posted Jan 13, 2008 - 8:18 AM

Yet another story about this and you have the same HD-DVD fanbois posting their rants about Blu-Ray and making up things to try and make Blu-Ray look bad.

Blu-Ray won. It has been selling more than HD-DVD since day one; it owns around 66% of the worldwide market.

Comcast can talk all they want about the future of television but i would not hold my breath waiting for it. Their VOD service is a joke. Oh boy 6000 titles per month...i can go to netflix and see over 80,000 to rent.

And the Docsis 3.0 stuff is going to be available to about 20% of homes by the end of 2008. Imagine how much that is going to cost, and how much filtering they are going to be doing to slow it down, not to mention their artificial caps.

I would say, Blu_ray is going to have a nice life. After Blu-Ray, in about 8-10 years, maybe all this streaming stuff will be the thing.

Score: 0

By PC_Tool

posted Jan 14, 2008 - 10:45 AM

it owns around 66% of the worldwide market.

66% of a virtually non-existant market.

Definitely cause for celebration....

Score: 0

By preinterpost

posted Jan 14, 2008 - 10:11 AM

You clown.

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By aredo

edited Jan 14, 2008 - 3:32 AM

After Blu-Ray there is the holographic disc 1000GB+ capable multi-layer media. By 2012-2014 the next standard UHDV will appear on the market as a replacement for HDTV and by that time OLED panels should be capable of at least 16Megapixel (half UHDV maximum resolution). The next codec H.265 should be finalized by 2011-2012.
By 2015-2022 the UHDV standard should have already replaced older HDTV hardware.

Score: 0

By Danno

edited Jan 13, 2008 - 4:39 AM

"3. this will take years, all the while dvd profiles will be released on a yearly to every 2 years or so basis where they'll 'trickle' in features that can/could be added all at once, but that they will get more money from strangling and sucking every last bit of 'early adopter' juice they can find - after all, "you knew what you were getting into", right? So they'll release profile 2.5 that requires an easy firmware upgrade, but then profile 2.7 will be pivotal and can't be handled by 2.5 and less, so you'll need a new player. Profile 2.8 and 2.9 will be easy peasy firmware updates, but 3.0 will be 'hardware driven' and you'll require a new player"

ahh too true.. just wait Steve Aka Metfanant aka Joey will put his two cents in then add how the POS3 will allow for all this plus voice comm etc.

The point is we shouldn't be forced to buy an inferior product. Blo ray is an unfinished format I congratulate Warner for robbing 500 million of invested money out of Sony before the whole idea of High Def home video is laid to rest (all thanks to Sony) just so they can try and grasp a victory somewhere in the tech market. I know they must be looking for funds to give those execs raises after all those fuel prices are high and the Bentleys do need fuel.

Score: 0

By Neoprimal

posted Jan 13, 2008 - 4:05 AM

BR has won the ability to slowly start reaming anyone interested in 'next gen' dvd products. Eventually, here's what I predict if HD DVD sinks...

1. just like videos, dvd's will slowly but surely be phased out. that's a given, and most of you have to admit this.

2. the key point will be rental stores conversions...blockbuster, hollywood video etc. will have to pick a format, they obviously can't house dvds AND blu rays forever, there's just no space

3. this will take years, all the while dvd profiles will be released on a yearly to every 2 years or so basis where they'll 'trickle' in features that can/could be added all at once, but that they will get more money from strangling and sucking every last bit of 'early adopter' juice they can find - after all, "you knew what you were getting into", right? So they'll release profile 2.5 that requires an easy firmware upgrade, but then profile 2.7 will be pivotal and can't be handled by 2.5 and less, so you'll need a new player. Profile 2.8 and 2.9 will be easy peasy firmware updates, but 3.0 will be 'hardware driven' and you'll require a new player...

so on...

and so forth...

and you get my drift.

Once they're able to get a hold of stuff and start squeezing the market, there'll be no stopping them.

I'm so sorry for those of us who aren't streaming HD content over the net or through comcast by then....or those of us who just want to go rent or buy and enjoy our DVDs on our $200 dvd player that we'd think would last a few years.

Score: 0

By Steve Austin

posted Jan 13, 2008 - 4:24 AM

Please show us where you saw about Profile 2.5, 2.7 and 3.0.

Profile 1.0 was always the preliminary profile, and 1.1 and 2.0 were always the final versions, they have been finalised for over a year, and any consumer buying standalone blu-ray should have make themselves familiar with them. the fact is, there are no more profiles, 1.1 and 2.0 are the final specs, (Contary to what idiots here seem to think, 2.0 will not replace 1.1)

Score: 0

By Neoprimal

posted Jan 14, 2008 - 9:37 AM

"Please show us where you saw about Profile 2.5, 2.7 and 3.0.

Profile 1.0 was always the preliminary profile, and 1.1 and 2.0 were always the final versions, they have been finalised for over a year, and any consumer buying standalone blu-ray should have make themselves familiar with them. the fact is, there are no more profiles, 1.1 and 2.0 are the final specs, (Contary to what idiots here seem to think, 2.0 will not replace 1.1)"

I was speaking hypothetically on what would happen if HD DVD ceases to exist and Blu Ray has no competition. Anyhow, we'll see what you say when the profiles start pouring out. But I'm sure you'll have an excuse then as well, and it will be the idiotic consumers fault, the one stupid enough to think that the device they purchased for $900 would last for more than a year, God, they're SO dumb. Should have done their homework and figured out that profile 1 could not be upgraded to the 'final' profile 2.0. Stupid people..pshh.

Score: 0

By Tenoq

posted Jan 13, 2008 - 8:44 PM

"...and any consumer buying standalone blu-ray should have make themselves familiar with them..."

You can't be serious. Most consumers have trouble finding the bloody 'On' button, let alone understanding the most obscure technical details regarding a particular format. Even today, the vast majority of consumers don't know what CSS encryption is, and many still puzzle of region coding when they order a DVD from Amazon (I'm in Aus).

Perhaps you expected the salesperson to make them aware of the fact their player would be obsolete in a few months? Seems a little unlikely given it's his job to _sell_, don't you think?

Score: 0

By Danno

posted Jan 13, 2008 - 3:23 AM

More problems with 2.0?!?!

Oh my perhaps Sony needs another investment!!
Oh what are they going to do.. expect people to upgrade further!?!? Perhaps go out and buy a 3rd player or perhaps at that time they will offer a 120G POS3 with Expresso maker.

Score: 0

By jugganutz

posted Jan 12, 2008 - 10:35 PM

Does anyone know if this is still true with the 2.0 spec coming out and all?

Of course the looming next-gen optical format war about to go down between Blu-ray and HD-DVD might be kind of interesting if it weren't taking place, well, in your very livingroom. But with talks broken down and devices starting to crop up, it looks like the first blows will soon be felt—but aren't they supposed to be hitting one another and not the end user? Because this little bit in a Reuters piece this morning left us a little unsettled:

On top of that, consumers should expect punishment for tinkering with their Blu-ray players, as many have done with current DVD players, for instance to remove regional coding. The new, Internet-connected and secure players will report any "hack" and the device can be disabled remotely.

Are they talking about PVP-OPM techniques and rejected HDMI keys, or something else far more sinister? Because apparently "A hacked player is any player that is doing something it's not supposed to do," which open to a pretty fair amount of interpretation—most of which egregious.

http://www.engadget.com/...ers-who-hack-their-gear

Score: 0

By yountmj

posted Jan 12, 2008 - 10:47 PM

To quote one particular user's comment on that article:

"What an interesting way for a manufacturer to ensure that I will NOT buy their products(s)"

Score: 0

By BobWang

posted Jan 12, 2008 - 9:21 PM

My collection, doesn't include many foreign disks and operas.
I gave up contributing profiles a few years ago, took too much time.
If somebody like me isn't buying either format, there's not much hope.
I DID start numbering my High Definition DVDs, all 7 of them ;-)

http://www.invelos.com/dvdcollection.aspx/BobWang

Score: 0

By Steve Austin

edited Jan 12, 2008 - 6:34 PM

I stopped reading, when the got to this nonsense "At this point, it's kind of hard to believe that it was only this past November that Sony CEO Sir Howard Stringer grimly declared the war a stalemate."

It's been discredited in many places, that this is a misquote, from the only reporter (and HD DVD fanatic) at the show.

As for suggestions that Warner were paid, what a load of tripe, Warner moved, because of Blu-ray's superior performance.. (NOTE: North American numbers only)
http://www.usatoday.com/...vd-sales-slippage_N.htm

Blu-ray Disc vs. HD DVD

No. of discs sold in 2007:

Blu-ray: 5.7 million (64% or $172.8 million)
HD DVD: 3.2 million (36% or $97.2 million)

Discs sold since inception:

Blu-ray: 6.1 million (62%)
HD DVD: 3.7 million (38%)

Source: Redhill Group

Top-selling high-definition discs of 2007 (through 12/30/07)

1. 300 (Blu-ray/Warner): 472,400
2. Planet Earth: The Complete Series (both formats/BBC Video): 294,300
3. Transformers (HD DVD/Paramount/DreamWorks): 239,100
4. Pirates of the Caribbean: At World's End (Blu-ray/Disney): 219,300
5. Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix (both/Warner): 179,500
6. The Departed (both/Warner): 171,800
7. Casino Royale (Blu-ray/Sony): 169,800
8. Bourne Ultimatum (HD DVD/Universal): 162,300
9. Spider-Man 3 (Blu-ray/Sony): 145,300
10. Ratatouille (Blu-ray/Disney): 117,500

Source: Redhill Group

On the other side of the atlantic, the same story:

http://technology.timeso...tech/article3174761.ece

DISCS:
- Blu-ray: 470,000
- HD DVD: 200,000

PLAYERS:
- Blu-ray: 7,000 standalone
754,000 PS3
- HD DVD: 15,000 standalone
40,000 X360 add-ons

Score: 0

By SGD

posted Jan 14, 2008 - 4:05 PM

What the hell is your point? Is it something like all the titles in one year combined did not sell what Transformers did on DVD in one week on SD DVD. I thought so.

Score: 0

By Setian^Stalker

edited Jan 14, 2008 - 9:04 AM

"3. Transformers (HD DVD/Paramount/DreamWorks): 239,100"

Considering the amount of hd-dvd players out there compaired to blu-rays (including ps3 as you guys always like to say) - thats awesome for hd-dvd.
That really puts a cloud over the whole affair :|

Score: 0

By pridewalker

edited Jan 13, 2008 - 3:20 AM

Regardless of the veracity of the Stringer quote, the information actually illustrates one of the main points of the commentary: What has BR really won?

You posted quite a bit of information (thanks for digging that up BTW). While it does show the higher sales of BR, it also illustrates the niche market that is HDM overall.

According to a story in USA Today (http://www.usatoday.com/...vd-sales-slippage_N.htm) 1.7 billion DVD's were shipped (yes, I know we've argued over shipped vs. sold, but it's the best sales figure I could locate:))
Compare that to the 11 million high def discs sold (rough estimate from your numbers), and well Blu has won a resounding...nothing. Even with the slippage in sales, DVD has ultimately won again.

Blu does have the advantage of more studios, and if they intend to do anything remotely worth mentioning with it, they'd better do it now. Until HD DVD actually declares defeat, there are STILL two formats, and honestly, I don't see either of them remaining viable (outside of the niche market) if this continues much longer.

Score: 0

By fewt

posted Jan 13, 2008 - 9:38 AM

These guys that quote these blu vs hd stats absolutely refuse to take into account the number of studios making disks for each respective platform. Of course blu-ray is ahead it has 8 studios stamping discs where HD has 2.

Score: 0

By jugganutz

edited Jan 12, 2008 - 10:18 PM

It's true the president of sony did call a stalemate back in novemeber look it up. If you go to the avs forum you will see how many blu-ray bogof sales there was. If you look at it from a money prespective it's not that far in between since thos bogof's count towards numbers. If sony did not do BogoF's sales those numbers would be sitting right next to each other.

Blu-ray BOGOF sales comprised from AVS

12/06 First BOGO for Blu-Ray movies

1/12/07
BOGO @ Best Buy
House of Flying Daggers
Kung Fu Hustle
Black Hawk Down
Monster House
Click
Talladega Nights: Ballad Of Ricky Bobby
Underworld: Evolution

2/4/07 – 2/10/07
BOGO @ Best Buy
CLICK
UNDERWORLD: EVOLUTION
MONSTER HOUSE
HOUSE OF FLYING DAGGERS
INTO THE BLUE
THE FIFTH ELEMENT

2/9/07 – 2/13/07
BOGO @ Fry’s
For $24.99
Click
Silent Hill
Underworld Evolution
Little Man
Monster House
The Benchwarmers
For $19.99
50 First Date
The Big Hit
House of Flying Dagger
THe Fifth Element
Hitch
A Knight's Tale
Into the Blue
Memento
Stealth
XXX
Black Hawk Down
Tears of the Sun*
SWAT
Resident Evil: Apocalypse

3/6/07
50% Off @ Amazon
47 Titles Including:
Alien vs Predator
The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen
Resident Evil - Apocalypse
50 First Dates
Kingdom Of Heaven
Memento
Speed
Fifth Element
Entrapment
Phone
Behind Enemy Lines
Chain Reaction
The Marine
Hitch
One Last Thing

7/6/07 – 7/10/07
2/$25 @ Fry’s
Curse of the Golden Flower
Black Hawk Down
House of Flying Daggers
Hellboy
Layer Cake
Kung Fu Hustle
Resident Evil: Apocalypse
Tears of the Sun
Identity
Stealth
Into the Blue
XXX
Big Fish
Memento
Donnie Brasco
Closer
Revenge
Hitch
Seven Years in Tibet
Cruel Intentions
Blazing Saddles
Full Metal Jacket
Unforgiven

10/01/07 – 10/20/07
BOGO @ FYE
Pirates of the Caribbean 1+2
Prestige
Apocalypto
Wild Hogs
Reign of Fire
Bridge to Terabithia
Déjà vu
GI Jane
Glory Road
Goal
Jay & Silent Bob Strike Back
King Arthur
The Queen
The Wild
Annapolis
The Lookout
Brothers Grimm
Casanova
The Great Raid

10/15 – 10/21
$9.99 @ Fry’s
Bram Stoker's Dracula
Fifth Element
Replacement Killers
A Few Good Men
Memoirs of a Geisha
Underworld
Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within
House of Flying Daggers
Hitch
Immortal Beloved
King Fu Hustle
Resident Evil: Apocalypse
Tears of the Sun
Layer Cake
Curse of the Golden Flower
Donnie Brasco
Blackjawk Down
Hellboy
Wild Things
The Patriot

10/15/07 – 10/22/07
BOGO @ Deepdiscountdvd.com
Disney titles including:
Annapolis
Apocalypto
Bridge to Terabithia
Chicago
Chicken Little
Déjà vu
…and many more

10/15 – 10/21
BOGO @ Circuit City
INCLUDES:
Black Hawk Down
Finding Neverland
G.I. Jane
Haunted Mansion
House of Flying Daggers
Into the Blue
Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back
King Arthur
Knights Tale, A
Kung Fu Hustle
Layer Cake
Memento
Remember the Titans
Resident Evil: Apocalypse
Stealth
Tears of the Sun
Annapolis
Apocalypto
Bridge to Terabithia
Brothers Grimm
Casanova
Casino Royale
Chicago
Chicken Little
Click
Dark Water
Deja Vu
Dinosaur
Eight Below
Enemy of the State
Flightplan
Glory Road
Gone in 60 Seconds
Great Raid, The
Guardian, The
Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
Invincible
Ladder 49
Lookout
Open Season
Pearl Harbor
Pirates of the Carribean: Curse of the Black Pearl
Pirates of the Carribean: Dead Man's Chest
Prestige, The
Primevil
Pursuit of Happyness
Queen, The
Reign of Fire
Rocky Balboa
Silent Hill
Sky High
Stranger than Fiction
Talladega Nights
Ultraviolet
Underworld Evolution
Wild Hogs
Wild, The

10/15 – 10/21
50% Off @ Best Buy
Invincible
Chicken Little
Wild Hogs
Eight Below
POTC 1 and 2
Gone in 60 Seconds
The Lookout
Pearl Harbor
Apocolypto
Deja Vu
Guardian
The Prestige
Enemy of the State

10/15 – 10/21
BOGO @ Amazon.com
Enemy of the State
The Queen
The Lookout
Pearl Harbor
Wild Hogs
Reign of Fire
Dark Water
Primeval
Dinosaur
The Wild
Eight Below
POTC: DMC
POTC: BP
Invincible
POTC: DMC
POTC: BP
…and more

10/15 – 10/21
BOGO @ TARGET
Wild Hogs
Apocalypto
Wild Hogs
Pirates 1 & 2
…and many more

11/9 – 11/15
BOGO @ Futureshop
20 Disney titles
Includes:
Ladder 49
Apocolypto
Déjà vu
Pirates 1&2
The Prestige
…and more

11/11/07
BOGO @ Fry’s
20 Disney titles
Includes:
Apocalypto
Deju Vu
Pirates of the Caribbean (both volumes)
The Prestige
Wild Hogs
…and many more

11/11/07
BOGO @ Amazon
72 Sony titles (including Casino Royale, Rocky Balboa)
40 Disney titles (including Apocalypto, The Prestige, Pirates 1 & 2)

11/15/07
BOGO + $10 Off @ FYE
40 Disney titles (including Chicago, Brothers Grimm, Apocalypto)

11/16 - 11/25/07
55% Off @ Fry’s
FOX titles
Day After Tomorrow
28 Weeks Later
Kingdom Of Heaven
28 Days Later
Night At the Museum
X-Men: Last Stand
Alien vs. Predator
Ice Age: The Meltdown
The Fly
Eragon
Fantastic 4
Transporter
Transporter 2
Flyboys
Mr. Brooks
From Hell
Hills Have Eyes 2
(All $13.98 each)

11/16/07
$9.99 @ Fry’s
Bram Stoker's Dracula
Hollow Man
The Fifth Element (REMASTERED)
The Replacement Killers
A Few Good Men
Underworld
Memoirs Of A Geisha
Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within
The Patriot
Wild Things
Hellboy
Donnie Brasco
Curse Of The Golden Flower
Layer Cake
Tears Of The Sun
Black Hawk Down
Resident Evil: Apocolypse
The House Of Flying Daggers
Kung Fu Hustle
Stealth

11/19/07
55% Off @ Amazon

12/16
BOGO @ Best Buy
BOGO @ amazon

12/26
Up to 50% Off Blu-Ray
on many titles including
Ratatouille, Cars, Pirates

1/1/08 BOGO@amazon
96 Fox & Warner titles
including Harry Potters,
Die Hards, 300, 28 Weeks Later

HD-DVD didn't start doing there's since december 07 wait i think there was one other that year :-/

Score: 0

By SGD

posted Jan 14, 2008 - 4:05 PM

Now that is a FIRE SALE.

Score: 0

By yountmj

edited Jan 14, 2008 - 11:24 PM

Practically a Towering Inferno (good movie, by the way).

Score: 0

By yountmj

posted Jan 12, 2008 - 10:40 PM

Wow! That sure is a lot of BOGOus 'sales'.

Score: 0

By yountmj

edited Jan 12, 2008 - 11:08 PM

"I stopped reading, when the got to this nonsense..."

I'm sure almost everyone else on this forum feels exactly the same way regarding most of your comments. :)

Warner did not move because of Blu-ray's "superior performance". That is tripe, plain and simple. Blu-ray players and titles have been plagued with sporadic playback issues since day one.

The BDA had one thing that was superior... marketing and deception. They have practically shoved Blu-ray down as many consumer's throats as possible. They force Blu-ray on people that simply wanted a new game console. They manipulated consumers into thinking they were getting a good deal while hiding the incompatibility issues of future titles. They manipulated industry and studio support by their market penetration tactics of vast numbers of give-away sales, giving the illusion of consumers wanting and buying more titles than they really were.

Whatever... any one of those movies you mentioned probably sold at least twice that number on DVD in one major U.S. city than their HD counterparts sold world-wide.

Blu-ray has won nothing.

Score: 0

By BobWang

posted Jan 12, 2008 - 8:35 PM

I think the stats make Scott's point for him.
I own >2,000 SD DVDs, 5 HD-DVDs, 2 Blu-rays.

Game over for hard media no matter which format wins.

Score: 0

By Steve Austin

posted Jan 13, 2008 - 4:20 AM

And you have been building that SD collection for how long now...

Score: 0

By yountmj

posted Jan 12, 2008 - 9:17 PM

Your short and sweet couple of lines spoke almost infinitely more loudly than Steve's page-long regurgitation of useless stats when compared to the big picture.

Thank you for that.

Score: 0