RSSClass action lawsuit charges President, NSA with illegal surveillance
By Scott M. Fulton, III | Published September 19, 2008, 7:21 PM
There's been no dispute that the National Security Agency cooperated with AT&T in a surveillance operation from its West Coast office. But its legal basis has been a Presidential order, and a new lawsuit questions whether that is enough.
In a lawsuit that would most likely convene after President Bush has left office next year, a number of AT&T phone and Internet customers have sued the President personally, along with the National Security Agency and members of the President's intelligence community since 2001. Citing evidence brought to light last year by former AT&T network technician Mark Klein, the suit alleges that AT&T was ordered by the President to cooperate with the NSA in illegal warrantless surveillance operations, in what has often been described as "the secret room on Folsom Street" in San Francisco.
The lawsuit was filed yesterday in US District Court for the Northern District of California. The Electronic Frontier Foundation is providing the legal resources for the case, and AT&T is not named as a defendant.
"The contents of communications to which Plaintiffs and class members were a party, and dialing, routing, addressing, and/or signaling information pertaining to those communications, were and are acquired by Defendants in cooperation with AT&T by using the nationwide network of Surveillance Configurations, and/or by other means," the lawsuit reads. "Defendants' above-described acquisition in cooperation with AT&T of Plaintiffs' and class members' communications contents and non-content information is done without judicial, statutory, or other lawful authorization, in violation of statutory and constitutional limitations, and in excess of statutory and constitutional authority."
The complaint goes into fairly explicit detail about the layout and engineering of the Folsom Street facility, coinciding in large part with Klein's November 2007 testimony before the Senate Judiciary Committee. Among Klein's counsel were some of the EFF attorneys backing this latest lawsuit, including legal director Cindy Cohn.
The suit does not explicitly specify whether any communications on the part of the plaintiffs were specifically known to have been intercepted by the NSA, though it assumes that plaintiffs' communications were just as likely to be intercepted as any other AT&T subscriber's, and it enables other parties to sign onto the class action.
The President's order enabling such surveillance programs to take place, dates back to October 2001, though Mr. Bush has renewed that order on schedule every 45 days since then. During the intervening period between the tenure of Attorneys-General John Ashcroft and Alberto Gonzales -- on March 9, 2004, the complaint notes -- Acting Attorney-General James Comey advised Mr. Bush that it was his opinion that the surveillance program had no legal basis. Two days later, the suit states, the President renewed the order for another 45-day term anyway, on the basis of having been approved by then-White House counsel Gonzales, prior to his appointment as Ashcroft's successor.
This is the second class-action lawsuit on this matter to be backed by the EFF; the first was filed in 2006, but remains stalled in a legal quagmire over whether AT&T should receive immunity.
In a statement released yesterday, the EFF's Cohn said, "Demanding personal accountability from President Bush, Vice President Cheney, and others responsible for the NSA's dragnet surveillance of ordinary Americans' communications is the best way to guarantee that such blatantly illegal spying will not be authorized in the future. Our lawsuit today should sound a clear warning to future occupants of the White House: If you break the law and violate Americans' privacy, there will be consequences."
In one of his most recent statements on the matter last June, in support of legislation that would enable intelligence reform while enabling immunity for AT&T and other telcos, President Bush said, "The enemy who attacked us on September the 11th is determined to strike this country again. It's vital that our intelligence community has the ability to learn who the terrorists are talking to, what they're saying, and what they are planning."
"The enemy who attacked us on September the 11th is determined to strike this country again. It's vital that our intelligence community has the ability to learn who the terrorists are talking to, what they're saying, and what they are planning."
- BULLs***!!!!!!!!!!!
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|please post some links to backup what you're saying.
For example :)
Houston Police Chief Wants Surveillance Cameras In Private Homes
http://www.prisonplanet..../160206privatehomes.htm
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|Let's feel some emotions. Why argue? Who can argue with what you experience?
FBI records audio from cell phone when phone is off
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jb6UCKTXL9Y
Excellent film on government sponsored terror
http://video.google.com/...ocid=786048453686176230
Houston Police Chief Wants Surveillance Cameras In Private Homes
http://www.prisonplanet..../160206privatehomes.htm
Here are some other far out films...
Endgame
http://video.google.com/...cid=1070329053600562261
9/11 Martial Law
http://video.google.com/...id=-6495462761605341661
And now, let us awaken the divine.
Entheogenesis
http://video.google.com/...uAg&q=entheogenesis
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|While they're at it, include ALL presidents since Harry Truman. Things like ECHELON have been around forever. Anyone who thinks Bush and the NSA just invented this kind of surveillance is naive (and probably a member of the 9-11 truth movement too).
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|I might be wrong but I thought the rules only applied to Domestic-to-Domestic calls. Domestic-to-International calls with those on a list of suspects were ok to tap. Just curious if I understood the problem correctly.
The members of terrorist groups are well versed in the art of filing lawsuits using their intermediaries.
Interesting that the problem occurred in a city known for harboring anyone that hates the U.S. and also is a sanctuary city for illegal aliens of all types. What a place San Fransisco is.
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|This is the least of their crimes, but if it puts them away, it'll be as good as Al Capone going to prison for tax evasion!
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|You cannot sue a sitting President. All that can happen is congress can impeach and the Senate can impose the penalty. Pointless law suits
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|funny.
people don't seem to understand that the president is exempted from civil lawsuits. at best the president can be removed by an act of congress.
also congress has provided protection from lawsuits to these companies which is the "law".
even if the president and the nsa seemed to superceed the authority given by congress, the fact of the matter is that congress did not initially limit the power given to them, that is if congress wanted to.
people forget that the courts only interpret and enforce the laws made by congress and those that are re affirmed by the supreme court.
so the lower courts will not be expected re write the law and the lawsuit will be a waste of time and money.
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|But one would expect that lawyers at the EFF would know this too....so what's their angle?
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|I've done some research on President Privilege of Immunity, there just isn't any law or caselaw that protects the president in this situation. On the contrary the right to sue the government is established in caselaw that is derived from the First Amendment ("the right of the people...to petition the Government for a redress of grievances")
The President is seen to be immune from criminal proceedings in so far as they aren't impeached first. But this isn't a criminal proceedings. Even if the impeachment framework could shelter the President in this situation, the First Amendment would trump it (since impeachment is dictated in Article II and Amendments amend the constitution).
President Privilege of Immunity provide for two major protections:
1) Can't be sued to stop him from doing his job as dictated by law.
2) Limited protection from subpoena's on grounds of national security.
The premise of this suit is that the President was not doing his job as dictated by law. There definitely was an opportunity here for the court to issue a "writ of mandamus" prior to this.
Here are a couple articles on the topic, I strongly recommend you review them:
http://law.onecle.com/co...sidential-immunity.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_privilege
“neither the doctrine of separation of powers, nor the need for confidentiality of high-level communications, without more, can sustain an absolute, unqualified Presidential privilege of immunity from judicial process under all circumstances.”
United States v. Nixon, 418 U.S. 683 (1974)
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|the argument you posed is interesting but it won't play out in the federal courts, eventhough i do admire it.
at best any new and unique argument against holding the president liable would ulitmately be reviewed by the supreme court, since the lawsuit won't be against the president but the presidential branch of government.
if the case for sueing the president became a right, then the president would be sued by every citizen affected by his line item veto.
whereas any citizen would argue that the pork belly funding for his or her business or project like a tea pot antique store was vital for their livelihood and community butd the president vetoed it via the line item veto powers eventhough congress had approved it.
citizens would then argue that the president was responsible for financial hardships and emotional distress. and who knows, perhaps the president approved pork belly funding for his favorite states and vetoed those that voted against him.
if one precident is established like that of your argument, then it will lead to opening the door for others like it. and frankly the supreme court won't open that door.
the first amendment is a valid argument but it seems to be more applicable to local and state governments rather than a branch of the federal government.
redress, if any would simply be a challenge for the feds to alter their behaviors that the courts rule to be contrary to the laws passed by congress. and though i would like to say that there would be no financial restitution.
i do recall that when the federal government had secretly used citizens and prisoners as guinea pigs for analzing infectous deseases, the feds were ordered to pay restitution. also, i beleive that african americans descended from slaves were also paid restitution. but none were paid to the american japanese for being imprisoned during ww2 or to the american indians who had the land aquisitioned / stolen.
but the above are extreme cases and unlike the one involving the nsa, the president and the undeclared war on terrorism.
if the first amendment was fairly applied as we citizens would like it to be, then the sub governments like the fda should be sued for the mistakes that caused deaths from bad medicine or the usda for those deaths caused from contaminated produce and meats because they failed to properly inspect and insure the safety of our food.
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|Get a lunny judge that will agree with them. It also gives them news coverage like this article so they can raise money. I mean they can't even prove that one of their clients had a call spied on.
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|What line-item veto?
http://www.cnn.com/ALLPO...8/06/25/scotus.lineitem/
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|I don't think you have grasped my argument, current caselaw gives the President limited Privilege of Immunity. I'm not arguing that it should be removed or changed. My argument is to point out that the Immunity granted to the President does not protect him if the his actions are outside of sphere authority granted him by the Constitution or a task required of him by law.
Don't get me wrong, the President is immune and should remain immune as long as his actions are within those dictated by law. The Veto is like taxation, "The power to tax is the power to destroy." (John Marshall, McCulloch v. Maryland). If destruction by such an indirect method as taxation is permissible, then destruction by Veto is equally protected.
The goal is simple, if you do something illegal, be you President or burger flipper, you must be answerable to the justice system and the people. Arguing otherwise is dangerous.
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|very interesting. thanks to both of you for the enlightenment.
i suppose that 20 million dollars for the tea pot meseum will be resubmitted for approval.
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|What most forget is that that is what the NSA is for in the first place.... To spy on America. The NSA is to freedom like rape is to virginity.
The NSA is yet another result of the paranoia and fear of the Cold War that is trying to justify its continued existence.
BTW, the NSA is so not suppose to be answerable to anyone, and that includes the president.
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|Guess what! The CIA has spied on Britons from their secret monitoring post in the UK for decades. MI-6 spies on Americans, with a siniliar facility loced in the USA. Both national espionage agencies monitor each others' foreigners, so they can't be charged with spying on their own citizens!
The EFF is just another name for the old San Francisco Haight-Ashbury anti-government hippie crowd. Do a little research on some of their people and see where it takes you...
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|You're kidding me right...the NSA is a Foreign Intelligence Agency...which translates into something like this....
They don't care about your communications or the fact that you even exist...if you still think that they are watching you personally, then just keep the tinfoil hat on your head a little longer, I'm sure it will protect you.
On the serious side...you should probably read a bit about the NSA before you randomly throw stupidly untrue facts around.
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|Their job is to monitor ALL communications coming in and go out of the USA, retard. 60 Minutes did a very good story on it a number of years ago. You should watch it. You apologists are your on worse enemy. No wonder your country is so screwed up now. With people like you who needs enemies.
http://online.wsj.com/ar...120511973377523845.html
BTW, Sh*t for brains, the N stands for National. What an idiot you truly are. I feel sorry for you.
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|So?
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|Your understanding of the intelligence community is pathetic.
The Russians and the US listens into EVERY electronic communication and has been doing so for 'a long time' now! And the Russians continue to do it from Cuba. ...And no, genius, I am not referring to the FBI's Predator system...
You might want to do a bit more research in the EMI free zone in West Virginia and the 'big dish' located there!
But like I said, you see some TV show and now you are an authority. But your ignorance so overshadows what little you have heard that it simply makes your histrionic Chicken Little impersonation second rate.
Instead of posting and demonstrating your ignorance here for all to see - spend the time learning something.
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|"BTW Sh*t for brains, the N stands for National. What n idiot you truly are."
Interesting that he would post a note to himself for us to read. The real irony? We already knew it...
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|Wow. The N stands for National...good job. The Name has nothing to do with their mission, which is Foreign Intelligence. Just because they can monitor domestic communications as a part of that mission, still doesn't mean they care about you, unless you have Osama on speed dial.
As for the other comment about being an apologist....I'm not an apologist, that would mean that I think there's something wrong with the practice...on the contrary, I think it's a good program.
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|It was pretty funny of him. :P
I love when people makes fools of themselves.
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|The "S" stands for security, put them together and you get...
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|Oh please. This is just another lawsuit that will eventually get swept under the carpet. In case anyone hasn't already noticed, George W. Hitler acts like he's God himself and thinks he's untouchable. And guess what, he is untouchable. When you're so high up and so connected with an army of lawyers, senators, congressmen, etc. a silly little lawsuit like this isn't going to touch you. My guess is that this new lawsuit will either drag on for years until it fizzles out or Bush and his cronies will pull a few strings to get the whole thing dismissed. Next.
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|Kashin, you must be somewhat bothered with all the name calling. Those that are afraid are those that have something to hide. Are you afraid?
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|No, I'm not afraid, because I live in a country that isn't hated by the whole world, doesn't get attacked by terrorists, and doesn't have a president who cannot be held liable no matter how many laws he violates. Nice try though. Time for you to go buy a copy of Trolling for Dummies, because you just failed miserably.
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|So tell us about your country, monkeyboy.
You know, the one that spawns terrorists and the one where folks clamor to get out, rather than to get in like the US - and where the family goats and sheep and chickens are welcome in the family living room and where the entire family sleeps together in one bed.
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|Troll!!
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|Which country? Antarctica? Canada? Can't be anywhere in Europe. Just curious.
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|What a load of crap. You must live on some rock or a country that isn't worth a hill of beans. The Hitler part is the best what an other load of crap.
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|This whole sordid affair is such a tragedy and stain on this country and its elected politicians including Nancy Pelosi, who seems adamant at acquiescing to the herd mentality. These people are so unaccountable and even the Federal Judiciary is complicit in these illegal acts. This administration and entire affair is begging for more blatant action by the citizens of this country.
http://www.bccmeteorites...sconduct-planetary.html
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|see below
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|We all in deep doodoo but the level of discourse could be of orangutans- such egos in primal clash and meltdown. That we could have a fundamentalist clone like Palin in such a position reveals that we hardly know which end is up. This country ambles ever closer to a pseudo-Christian fascism where thought police are everywhere- we are ever closer to it thanks to the divisions in this nation that are exploited shamelessly by the crypto-fascists. Wake up. Stop fighting amongst yourselves. The enemy is within, not abroad.
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|Well, if the Christo-fascists frighten you, there's a demand for English teachers in China and other countries. Just be a can-do person, not a cry-baby, and you'll do OK.
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