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Dialog: The final format war

By Scott M. Fulton, III, BetaNews

February 21, 2008, 5:33 PM

Has the end of one of the most embarrassing disputes in the history of consumer technology come too late? Has Blu-ray won one war only to find itself facing a new competitor: video-on-demand?

The historic battle between VHS and Beta ended decisively at the dawn of the era of home-recordable video. VHS had plenty of time to enjoy the spoils of its success. A format war might have erupted at the dawn of the compact video disc era between two groups of vendors led by Philips and Matsushita, though they were able to come to terms in time for the sunrise of DVD's window of opportunity.

Today, it is the video-on-demand era that appears to be on the horizon, and yet it is here when the collision between the interests of two sets of intellectual property holders has finally come to a gruesome, though decisive, resolution. Will Blu-ray have time enough to enjoy its place in the sun? Or will Sony and its allies revive a classic scene from a Chuck Jones cartoon, where the coyote finally clutches onto what appears to be a live bird, and just before beginning his victory dance, comes to realize slowly, carefully, that there's no more cliff to prevent him from falling victim to gravity?

It's a topic that we discussed at length with our regular source of insight on such matters, technology analyst Carmi Levy. We began with the obvious question: Who benefits from the demise of HD DVD?


AR Communications Senior Vice President Carmi Levy
AR Communications Senior Vice President Carmi Levy
CARMI LEVY, Senior Vice President, AR Communications: I think it benefits everybody, really, with the obvious exception of Toshiba, which now has to eat a multi-billion-dollar investment and also has to take the hit to its prestige. But certainly some of [its competitors] learned that lesson in the '80s with [Sony] Beta, so I'm sure that they can seek some advice from Sony in getting over it.

This really is a good news story for pretty much everyone who isn't Toshiba. Obviously, from a consumer perspective, now we have a winner. It's much easier for companies to introduce products and related services, third-party products, to the market, knowing that there will be a market for Blu-ray going forward. More hardware vendors will be motivated to get into the market, and start introducing players and other value-added devices. With more studios introducing content, obviously, the number of titles that are in-market will go up dramatically in the months to come, and then that will exert downward pressure on prices for both hardware as well as content, so that price differential between high-def Blu-ray discs and standard-def DVDs will start to come down as well. Within a year, a year and a half, those differences will be fairly minuscule.

So now that we have the disc-based medium question answered, all of the other pieces can fall into place such that high-def will now more rapidly become the standard for viewing video-based content.

SCOTT FULTON, BetaNews: Well, you say, "now that it will more rapidly become..." Three years ago, we saw a path toward high-def when things looked a little clearer, and we thought, "This is an intellectual property spat; they'll solve this because they're not going to repeat VHS v. Betamax, good heavens!" We predicted that, as time goes on, there would naturally be downward pressure on prices for the standard DVD format, and that would encourage its rapid obsolescence surely by 2007, and then we'd be moving into 2008 with happy consumers having been successfully migrated onto this new island of high definition.

"The vast majority of the market...deliberately stayed on the sidelines and watched this format war play out, and it's given them three extra years to look at what they have, and confirm to themselves that standard-def DVD really is good enough."

Carmi Levy, Senior Vice President, AR Communications

But since the existence of the format war, I detect a bit of reticence among general consumers, the people who would not have been the first adopters anyway, people who are now today more likely to say, "I've got my standard def and I'm stickin' with it no matter what you do." You could put downward pressure on prices, but that downward pressure isn't as likely today to force standard DVD into planned obsolescence the way it was going to three years ago.

CARMI LEVY: Absolutely, because the vast majority of the market, including pretty much everybody in that middle demographic -- the average Joe who wants to buy an inexpensive movie and watch it on date night on Saturday, or bring home movies for the kids -- deliberately stayed on the sidelines and watched this format war play out, and it's given them three extra years to look at what they have, and confirm to themselves that standard-def DVD really is good enough. So I think you're absolutely right, there will be a fairly large percentage of people out there who will now be later adopters to high-def than might have otherwise been the case, and they'll hold onto their DVDs as long as they possibly can because they just don't see the value in upgrading.

But technology moves in only one direction -- forward -- and it only moves at one speed -- fast. And at some point, the studios will reach a tipping point where the majority of their income is being derived from high-def media and not from standard-def media. And when that happens, when these late adopters and the draft dodgers [come to] represent the minority of the market, eventually new content will stop being released in standard-def. The world will leave them behind. And they'll have no choice but to either upgrade to Blu-ray or simply transition from standard-def DVDs to what comes after Blu-ray, which is essentially universal delivery of content via the Internet.

I think we can all easily conclude that this is likely going to be the last standards war for a physical-based medium, and Blu-ray is likely going to be the last player of a physical media type that we're going to buy for our homes. After this, it's fat pipes that connect into our homes and deliver content. We're not there yet because the pipes aren't big or fast enough yet, but when they become big and fast enough to deliver full-length, high-def films in a reasonable amount of time, in a manner that's easy enough for the average consumer to manage, even Blu-ray will be obsolete.

So conceivably, we may in fact have a small minority of the market that will never transition to Blu-ray, and will simply use their DVDs until the Internet becomes a stable enough platform to deliver high-def content reliably. And I doubt that'll affect uptake for Blu-ray; right now, all brakes are off, we're going to see a flood of new products and new content in the year to come, and basically not even consumers who are satisfied with standard-def DVD will be sufficient to slow that down.

Next: Blu-ray vs. fat pipes...vs. the consumer

Continued. . .
1 | 2 | Next >>

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By Aires

edited Feb 26, 2008 - 5:48 AM

Physical media won't disappear to be replaced by downloads, because why would you pay to download something that others are offering for free. This is not a nut that can be cracked - I'm not advocating piracy but free copies of films are always going to be around on torrents and p2p. The studios have control over physical media but don't seem to have any strategy to control downloads - DRM isn't working and never has.

"How many customers are going to spend $300+ more for Blu-ray when they can spend $65 and get a 1080p upconverting DVD player with HDMI output?"

Never a truer word said.

Score: 0

By MikeTechno

edited Feb 25, 2008 - 7:32 PM

VOD isn't the next threat to Blu-ray. VOD is only a very small niche player and will never grow beyond that because it is really just another form of movie rental, not movie ownership. Big difference there. When you buy a disc, you own it. That matters to consumers because the media is portable and you can take it with you and play it anywere, or easily loan it to your mom.

The real threat to Blu-ray, and the "new" format war now will likely be between Blu-ray and the very capable, but FAR less expensive standard, up-converting DVD players.

Now consumers buying a new DVD player are primarily choosing between a $399+ Blu-ray player or a $65 up-converting 1080p standare DVD player. Right now, standard DVD players own about 99% or the disc player market here.

How many customers are going to spend $300+ more for Blu-ray when they can spend $65 and get a 1080p upconverting DVD player with HDMI output?

Sure, Blu-ray looks better and sounds better than upconverting standard DVD, no question about it....but does it look $300+ better to the average US consumer? Hmmm.....

Maybe the "real" format war wasn't between Blu-ray and HD DVD at all.

Maybe the real format war is just now begining?

Score: 0

By Kayne314

edited Feb 23, 2008 - 7:16 PM

VOD needs to kill Blu-ray if it EVER wants to be seen as viable. If Blu-ray takes off and more and more people have it in their homes, VOD will find itself a losing proposition.

VOD isn't here yet in any meaningful way. When it is ready to be seen in the home(say 2 years) its image quality will be little better than an upconverted DVD, perhaps less. When compared with Blu-ray it will seem extremely poor, and no-where near good enough.

VOD must kill Blu-ray NOW, and keep the majority of customers from seeing what real High Definition can be. An educated customer is VODs biggest obstacle to adoption.

VOD will not have the quality due to limits in bandwidth and storage. VODs will be highly compressed, and lacking any kind of meaningful features. If the customer has come to expect the quality and features Blu-ray offers, VOD will fail.

Seen on a 46" HDTV, flaws become immediately apparent. Blu-ray is custom made for HDTVs and boasts excellent image for screens up to 150". VOD cannot compete with this type of quality. Their only hope is to kill it before too many people come to understand what quality is.

Look for more and more articles boasting the convenience of VOD over Blu-ray, despite VOD not yet existing or being ready for mass adoption. VOD MUST create a customer demand for itself, and create a bias against Blu-ray, and it must do it now.

In two years if they haven't halted Blu-ray's growth, it will already be too late.

Score: 0

By labomba

edited Feb 25, 2008 - 10:48 AM

Agree. It's like choosing a BMW (BD) over a Honda (VOD) for luxury and comfort. Even though that both can deliver its core purpose to get you from point A to pint B, BMW is waay more far better than Honda. Given all the time that Honda needs, it will never be close to the quality of a BMW. Same concept for VOD. I'm just using this as an analogy.

Score: 0

By yourcat

posted Feb 24, 2008 - 11:10 PM

Oh, I'm already biased against sony themselves.

Score: 0

By Kayne314

edited Feb 25, 2008 - 7:48 AM

As many are against Microsoft. And Microsoft is one of the biggest groups pushing for HD Downlaods to hopefully try and force HDi down our throats a second time.

Seriously, is brand bias the biggest reason to dismiss a quality product? There are loads of other companies in the BDA. Panasonic even owns more patents for Blu-ray than Sony does.

Who cares?

Score: 0

By testman

posted Feb 25, 2008 - 6:39 PM

Precisely. Some people like to act like sheep.

Score: 0

By yountmj

posted Feb 23, 2008 - 10:44 PM

"VOD needs to kill Blu-ray if it EVER wants to be seen as viable. If Blu-ray takes off and more and more people have it in their homes, VOD will find itself a losing proposition."

I would suggest the exact opposite to that entire statement.

Blu-ray has won over HD DVD, but now the real battle takes place... a battle that Sony and the BDA need to wage on two fronts now: against the incredibly massive installed base of low-cost DVD players and media, and against streaming technologies gaining an ever-increasing foothold in more and more homes.

Blu-ray's battle with HD DVD was incredibly short-lived and relatively uncomplicated. Now, they have their work cut out for them. They proved themselves viable amongst a fairly small group of consumers worldwide showing an above average interest in high-definition entertainment. Now, they have to prove themselves to the rest of the consumers... and that is no easy task.

Score: 0

By Kayne314

posted Feb 23, 2008 - 11:52 PM

Blu-ray has the advantage here. It is a growing format, and gaining in adoption rate. DVD is slowing in its growth, and is expected to begin to drop. HD VOD is an untested alternative, and not yet in the market in any way meaningful to the average consumer.

Blu-ray adoption by the average consumer is much closer than that of downloads or VOD. Now that HDTVs are in more and more homes, and combined with the death of HD DVD, Blu-ray is poised for massive adoption in the coming months and years.

As VOD has a 0% adoption to present, Blu-ray's lead is extremely daunting. VOD will require an adoption rate many times greater than Blu-ray if it is to stand a chance.

DVD's days are already numbered.

Score: 0

By Pixelsmack

posted Feb 22, 2008 - 11:25 PM

As I said, VOD is in it's infant stages. So of course it's not desirable for purists or even avid content seekers.

And as I stated new generations of users will get that same experience of knowing quality media is in their hands and in their control from having it stored on their local system.

That will be the new era of "owning". You get it via VOD and opt to store it for the long term, forever even. Possibly in a better quality than the VOD version.

VOD will be as good as Bluray and beyond one day, soon even. It only takes time. Media distributed on physical hardware will see it's end. It just won't be until our generation is long gone and any remnants of our concepts have been long superseded.

Score: 0

By Hall9000

posted Feb 22, 2008 - 10:09 PM

This might not be the right place to ask this but what IF DVDs simply weren't used anymore? Lets say we used only small memory sticks? After all, having, oh lets say 20gig on them, would make them more than suitable to have high definition movies on them, right? Would that solve this damn format war?

Score: 0

By testman

posted Feb 25, 2008 - 6:41 PM

The format war is already solved though. But in any case, have you seen the price of 8GB memory cards right now? And this is when it's empty, let alone putting a movie on it.

Not workable AT ALL.

Score: 0

By yountmj

posted Feb 22, 2008 - 11:21 PM

I don't believe so. They're charging enough as it is for the discs. The cost of 20+ GB of flash memory would be completely unreasonable.

Score: 0

By rbrown84

posted Feb 22, 2008 - 7:29 PM

ok people don't count Toshiba/HD-DVD out just yet. I'm betting they have another trick up their sleeve and are just making it seem like they've lost..don't jump to conclusions.

Score: 0

By testman

posted Feb 25, 2008 - 6:33 PM

I'm betting they haven't. Especially as HD-DVD was announced as dead, so I think we can count Toshiba/HD-DVD out. Now Toshiba on its own on the other hand...

Score: 0

By cranbers

edited Feb 22, 2008 - 4:02 PM

Video on demand may take over eventually, although not for a long time. Netflix, comcast and tivo are all offering video on demand services. Netflix is pc only for now, but that is just fine for someone who has a pc hooked up to their HD tv via VGA connection. Works great for me.

I do however still like to get movies on disc, because internet is not available everywhere.

Score: 0

By Adrian79

posted Feb 22, 2008 - 7:49 PM

why vga? I have mine hooked up HDMI :)

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By MikeTechno

edited Feb 22, 2008 - 1:32 PM

No, I don't see VOD taking over at all actually, for a number of reasons.

Video on Demand is a good idea but it will never replace movies being distributed on physical media. Why? Because when a person purchases a movie on a physical media (be that disc, solid state memory card, or whatever) they have something tangible that they know was professionally produced (stamped on a $100,000+ machine, not burnt on a $60 CD/DVD burner) and that has value to the customer.

Plus, it makes the content entirely portable from the get go. If I buy a DVD, from the moment I buy it, I can play it anywhere. My home, my laptop, my car, my friends house, etc. That isn't the case with VOD.

I do use VOD occassionally to watch a streaming videos over Netflix using my cable modem but mentally, that is still renting a movie. Not the same thing as actually owning a DVD of that film where you can watch it anywhere and drill down into all the special features content whenever you like and whenever you are in the mood. Most VOD movies are just the feature, none of the special features that were released with the film.

VOD is very nice, no question about it, but the idea of VOD ever replacing movies distributed on phyical media (of one form or another) just will never happen, at least not in this country.

You will always have a substantial portion of the public that wants to have 100% control over what it is they are paying their hard earned dollars for. VOD just can't offer that. Without that and without true play-anywhere portablity, VOD will only play a very limited, niche role in the future of the movie distribution business.

Oh, and as for this being the "last standards war"....hardly. As long as there are lawyers and egos in corporate ivory towers, there will be format wars. If we didn't learn our lesson on this by 2006, I can assure you that we never will.

Blu-ray will be bested very soon, but it won't be by VOD. It will be by another optical disc technology that leap-frogs over Blu-ray with capacities from 250 to 500GB per disc at the same price point as Blu-ray, if not lower. These disc technologies are just over the horizon now we are told and will be here soon. Some day, when costs come down enough, optical disc will go away and be replaced by solid state memory cards, similar to the Compact Flash cards of today, but that will be quite a long while.

Score: 0

By testman

posted Feb 25, 2008 - 6:33 PM

Good post. Fully agree.

Score: 0

By ukcn001XYZ

posted Feb 22, 2008 - 10:58 AM

Ieee.... Just when you think the war is over and controversy at last dies down a little, betanews tosses another batch of grease onto the fire and starts fanning the flames more...

Feels more and more like Jerry Springer on here every day... *sigh*

This site is getting to be so bloated with bs.

Score: 0

By Galway

posted Feb 22, 2008 - 12:41 PM

Why not help to sort it then, if you dont like it, dont come back !

The articles in question have been the most popular and most posted on for a while. I find the majority of posts here to be informative and based on sound personal opinion. If you object to anything, or have a different view then post your gripe.

But don't try to turn this forum into the same anal fanboy stuff of other forums.

Score: 0

By ukcn001XYZ

posted Feb 22, 2008 - 5:04 PM

fanboys.... yeah def none here to be seen... good point.

Score: 0

By TarrantM

edited Feb 22, 2008 - 10:40 AM

Internet access speeds in America have stagnated compared to europe and asia. I don't see HD content delivery making too many inroads in the US until ISPs decide to upgrade their lines, and with the recent reticence on the part of ISPs to do so despite their expansions being subsidized by our taxes, it seems even less likely to happen. Heck, American ISPs apparently can't even handle P2P traffic, how on earth are they planning on handling HD over their lines?

Edit: hah, http://www.theregister.c...2/20/iplayer_isps_broke/
Even UK ISPs can't handle the traffic from non-HD BBC video streaming. The intertubes as media delivery is a long long, oligarchically controled pipe dream away from being viable.

Score: 0

By Danno

posted Feb 22, 2008 - 1:59 PM

There is a difference between ON Demand where the information is already cached at the local node and information that isn't cached.

"Can't handle P2P traffic."

WTH are you talking about everytime i open Utorrent to download i get a connection no problem and i recieve packets from the swarm.

Score: 0

By testman

posted Feb 25, 2008 - 6:39 PM

And how long do you wait? When I have a disc, I just pop it in my drive and there you go, instant playback. CD, DVD, Blu-ray, whatever. Video over the internet has a LONG way to go. In fact it won't ever replace discs, especially when ISPs are traffic-shaping left, right and centre.

Score: 0

By TarrantM

posted Feb 23, 2008 - 7:33 PM

Listen to all the whining from ISPs about blocking torrent traffic. They're saying their networks can't handle torrent traffic. Are you *gasp* saying they're lying?

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By Pixelsmack

posted Feb 22, 2008 - 4:07 AM

Streaming online IS the future. It's here now in it's infant form. And that is just how it's going to be, period. It's cheaper for the studios and easier for the customer.

Is BR the last "hold in your hands" format we will deal with? That I am not so sure on. I would say most likely but I would not wager on it.

The fact is right now all the media providers are pushing forward with online distribution and streaming. Cable, phone, sat all are wanting you to get their content from a web connection instead of a dish or feed.

Granted they still give you the content over a cable line or phone line but in a different fashion.

These next years are going to be very interesting in the delivery and distribution of media. Sure BR is going to be around giving us all that comfortable "hold in your hands" blanket we cherish. But our children and our children's children are going to be getting their entertainment in a far different fashion.

I used to mock my dad for his records and laser discs...now I see my kids mocking me for wasting space with 'discs'.

"You mean it only held ONE movie dad? And you had to put it in a player? LAME!"

Score: 0

By bolaris

edited Feb 22, 2008 - 2:57 AM

.....standard-def DVD really is good enough."
Carmi Levy did you do science in school??? I bet you still listen to tapes and whisper to yourself ..ouuhhyeah tape def is good enough.

The Larger TV's get ie + 46" the WORSE standard def will be. Have you seen the blotchy upsampling and s***ty resolution of SD on these TV's??? Something that in a few years time everyone will have in their living rooms.

Score: 0

By yourcat

posted Feb 24, 2008 - 11:19 PM

Calm down! Tape is worse than SD! Ugh... don't FORCE HD on people...

Score: 0

By Danno

posted Feb 22, 2008 - 9:49 AM

To some like myself standard dvds played in upscaled dvd players LOOK FINE!

Score: 0

By PC_Tool

posted Feb 22, 2008 - 12:52 PM

Exactly. A cheap upscaling DVD player works fine for most.

..until HD player prices come down to a more sane level.

Score: 0

By Danno

posted Feb 22, 2008 - 1:46 PM

I agree but by the time they normalize (and for sony not to look like pretentious a**H**** expecially when they have openly stated that Bloray costs this much to manufacture) I think Mike Techno may have an idea of what disk technology has instore but i also disagree because i do believe that Cable companies will hop on the bandwagon when they see how much money they can make with HDOn Demand. Expecially with the speeds available. Look at MS they are already offering OnDemand to their XBlive customers and continue to INK deals with studios to provide content for ON Demand.

Score: 0

By reptile168

posted Feb 22, 2008 - 1:06 AM

"Blu-ray Discs were consistently outselling HD DVDs, and the studios tipped toward Blu-ray, which increased the flow of Blu-ray and decreased the flow of HD DVD content, and eventually HD DVD could not compete simply because consumers said, this is what we want, the market responded by providing that, and eventually it became un-economic to continue to support the loser."

Studios supported Blueray BEFORE the format launched, and even though they outsold HD DVD 60/40 during 2007, they actually lost Paramount and Dreamworks. The Tipping point was Warner's defection to Bluray. (of course, just like paramount, incentive was present, but to a much larger amount for Warner). Back to 60/40. It could be explained that Blueray released more movies in 2007, and starting October, they were VERY aggressive with their pricing (2 for 1, 20$, etc.).

Honestly, consumer didn't really choose blu-ray, but more like they didn't have much choice. You've got instant PS3 owners with Blue-ray inside. If I had a PS3, I would have picked up The Simpsons Movie on Blueray.

Score: 0

By Danno

posted Feb 22, 2008 - 1:47 PM

If I had a PS3, I would have picked up The Simpsons Movie on Blueray. "

Why what difference in resolution would there be IMO anime can only look so good. Try viewing that movie on an upconverting dvd player. I bet you will be impressed and saved yourself some $$ as the dvd version is less expensive than the blodisk version.

Score: 0

By reptile168

edited Feb 24, 2008 - 11:20 PM

Dude, it was an example. The only movie available on Blue-ray that I actually would buy is Simpsons movie. I could have said Pirates of the Caribbeans and stuffs like this, but I do NOT want to buy those movies (Not even on DVDs)

Score: 0

By Hollywood__

posted Feb 21, 2008 - 9:44 PM

HD-DVD has something up it's sleeve for CES 2009.

Score: 0

By testman

posted Feb 25, 2008 - 6:37 PM

Why, is it going to be exhumed? LOL

Score: 0

By Adrian79

posted Feb 21, 2008 - 8:16 PM

no, vod will have its own competition.. physical media will always have a place.

Score: 0

By pridewalker

posted Feb 21, 2008 - 10:35 PM

I agree. Unless there's a means to purchase a license for continued and repeated viewing, VOD's main competition will be the disc rental market.

I'm not going to hold my breath, in anticipation of Comcast performing the needed overhaul to the network anytime soon. Hell, I'm still waiting for them to offer a decent quality digital box.

Personally, I'm getting a bit tired of the constant crowing about physical media's demise. Sure, there's some truth to be found in the 'disc vs. digital content' debate; but it almost sounds like they're trying to head off another (potential) format war, before the infrastructure is even in place.

Score: 0

By labomba

posted Feb 21, 2008 - 9:24 PM

Totally agree. Consumer demand on owning and collecting physical hidef media will always be a separate market. VOD does not even come near hidef media content (special features, commentaries, select different audio, subtitles, etc. etc.). If you look at it VOD has been out for some years now. The only addition is thru the internet and hidef but even that, you question the bandwidth, size of download, etc. Hidef VOD has TONS of grounds to cover. Yeah you can VOD movies now for a fraction of a price of an actual media disc but the quality of it is not there yet. I, for one, am not part of the regular consumer group. I have to have my special features, etc. and I need to hear it in uncompress audio. These are just a couple of my niche. Until HD VOD is about as equal as of physical hidef media quality, I will stick with physical media and so does the majority of the consumer.

Score: 0

By mjm01010101

posted Feb 21, 2008 - 7:03 PM

Count me in to passing on this format and waiting for VOD elsewhere. Guess I'm just one of those luddites that don't want slightly better tech for an enormous price difference.

Score: 0

By preinterpost

posted Feb 21, 2008 - 6:17 PM

Whawwww... He is scary.

Score: 0

By lvthunder

posted Feb 21, 2008 - 6:17 PM

Oh please. Consumers didn't pick Blu-Ray. Consumers looked at both sides and said which side has more movies that I like. I bet it would of been different if all the studios were neutral.

Score: 0

By mathoda

posted Feb 21, 2008 - 5:53 PM

I wrote a blog post on this topic called "Skating to where the DVD player will go", which you can find here: http://www.mathoda.com/archives/168

Score: 0

By pridewalker

posted Feb 21, 2008 - 6:43 PM

...and you've been spamming this link for months.

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