...

"It terrifies me to think if Jobs were in Gatesy's position here"

...

Actually, he ~now~ is !

The Euro-Commies in France want iPod divested of it's propritoty format.

Gates should pull Windows out
of Western Europe, and Jobs iTunes
out of stinking France.

Let'em eat cake !
...

The Computer Rodent

...

...

"Communism is fatally flawed. People behave based on incentives - they have since caveman days. Communism only takes root under false promise, and only persists under authoritarianism."

...

~Exactly~ right !

The European anti-Microsoft Taliban wants
Bill Gates to forswear Free Enterprise and
kneel before the altar of Euro-Socialism.
...

The Computer Rodent

...

It's not like MS held a gun to the EU's head and said buy this software.
It terrifies me to think if Jobs were in Gatesy's position here.

Please add me in your google talk

john.new2@gmail.com

Wow here's a story that doesn't shock me one bit. The EU's hobby is to hassle Microsoft and get money out of them.

I think we'd prefer they conduct their business in a seemly and lawful manner, respecting what their customers are asking of them in the EU, rather than some cash. We've got plenty, thanks for asking, given we won't be paying off crushing debts for the next century.

If you want MS to have Windows the way it is in the US, then we've got no problem with that at all. This is solely an EU case. What you do with MS in the US is not of interest to us.

If they're so unruly, why isn't the EU all Mac?

If more companies worked with Microsoft than against them, and if those same companies spent as much money on their own marketing campaigns as they do on lawsuits against others, then there is no doubt that they would be as successful or more-so than Microsoft. Tangible evidence, you ask for? Meh, I don't have any, just my gut instinct as a business man and educator and tech guy.

You may be onto something, and you may not. The problem is that Microsoft often makes it hard for companies to fully utilize the Windows operating system. The EU isn't trying to shut Microsoft down, but force them to "work" with other companies in the EU, and give those companies the latitude they need to create software that works, and functions on Windows like a Microsoft application would. Could you imagine how cool it would be if every application you bought worked as well on Windows as a Windows app?

Maybe an experiment could clear all of this. Why not install Firefox instead of IE with Vista. I'm curious how many people would bother to download IE.

but there is no logical reason that they should have to, if a company decides to make software that will rely on windows and microsoft's hard work you should be at the mercy of whatever microsoft decides to give you. deal with it, when those companies have their own operating system that they have worked hard to make then they can make their programs work well with it and shut up.

This is for Bill Gates, if you reading this here's what you should do. Strip the living daylights out of windows. Just give them the Windows kernel and that's it. Not even a GUI just black console screen with a blinking cursor. And charge them for every addon. Give them that linux experience without the easy of use ;-)

Heck yeah! Give these whiners something to whine about! :)

They couldn't do that - since they've programmed Windows to be monolithic, not modular.

Looks like you missed the entire point.

The UE can't afford to buy Vista our euro is too strong

Who's the UE? =p

The second coming of the Roman Empire and Microsoft will bow in homage to it's mighty currency.the euro.

Ha! Now that cracked me up. Work on your punctuation, Centurion!

I understand the EU and their cause, they look at microsoft as an outsider trying to bring a product into their country and they just want to make sure its something their people can work with, not something thats going to push programs created in europe for windows out the door. just try to remove windows media player completely and replace it with say...winamp. or even better, remove IE completely and replace it with firefox.

Goes for more than just software companies, i'm getting sick of these car company's messing with their stereo setup's, making it impossible to upgrade the deck, with their hidden crappy amp's.(just an example)

Back to the point, i think you should be able to choose weather to install these "extra's" or not when you do the initial install.

All *I* want is an uninstall option for browser, media player programs and some other sections that actually works.

That's not really a lot to ask, given MS charges quite a bit for their OS, which apparently I don't even own once I've bought it. Licensing... pah!

...

"what these EU communist are trying to do is simply stupid"

...

~That's~ exactly it, isn't it ?

The contention ain't over technology, or "anti-competitive behavior".

It's Communism versus free enterprise.

The EU would prefer a government computer operating system a' la the old Soviet Union.

Statist totalitarianism.
...

The Computer Rodent

...

Wow you may actually have something there.. they are still pissed the quakers moved to the USA!

Wow, your right!

I'm really beginning to think you lot don't have the faintest clue as to what goes on in the world outside your own countries borders.

And EU as communists goes to show you have no idea what communism is, except your opinion that it must be the opposite of whatever you believe in.

(Communism is the best polictical system by the way, if people weren't selfish. Unfortunately, they all tend towards selfishness so it's sadly unworkable on a large scale.)

Also, re : the Quaker comment. The Quakers moved to America to escape religious persecution. Shame the US has more religious nutballs now than we ever did.

nibble on some communist french cheese you rat

I hope you are european like me ;nonetheless you stated the truth . there is no communism in the UE

Again, what is the UE?

Communism is fatally flawed. People behave based on incentives - they have since caveman days. Communism only takes root under false promise, and only persists under authoritarianism.

As for Microsoft, no one is forcing anyone in Europe to not go Mac or Linux. Has MS abused its position before? Yep. But in this case, your unreasonable demands are not consistent with all OS manufacturers.

You can't have it both ways.

If EU has so many issues with Microsoft. Then why is that we dont have any issues with Microsoft in US. It's difficult to understand the EU problem.

You just answered your own question.

MS is an AMERICAN company.. that's their problem..

Everyone jumping all over the I hate the EU bandwagon should probably keep reading the news first.

"He said Kroes' letter to Ballmer came after Microsoft asked regulators to set out any possible antitrust problems with Vista, stressing that it was not the start of any formal probe into the new operating system."

- http://seattletimes.nwso...2002898668_vista30.html

Microsoft ASKED the EU to express any concerns.

Now back to our daily dose of uninformed hate ridden comments by folks with less than 1/2 a clue.

heh

Yeah the same way you ask if there is anything else you can do, after helping them for 3 hours.. its a courtesy, you don't REALLY expect them to have any concerns. Its a way of aquiesing, knowing full well they are still going to complaing given every opportunity.

Its still rediculous. The EU is taking this MS thing too far. Everytime MS does what the EU asks, the EU raises the bar again and again... every time MS gets over one hurdle, the EU finds another hurdle.. they are looking for any excuse to keep MS occupied, because they want to make them jump through hoops.

This isn't a hate EU problem, this is a semantics, the EU needs to get their head out of their ass, and quit being moron's problem.

Really there is absolutely no proof that they have complied other than what Microsoft has told you. They also sent letters to AGs from dead people so they have TONS of credibility. The man that was picked out of a list that Microsoft created says they are not complying.

Why this blind love for a company? If RHAT had acted in this manor you would probably be up in arms over it. I know I'd be pretty irritated, just like I am with this whole Microsoft fiasco. They should just comply with the letter of the ruling and be done with it.

Requesting the EU look at Vista is a step in the right direction since they have been found guilty of monopolizing an industry what THREE times now?

oy vey, should have just broken them up all those years ago when it was still an option on the table.

Actually, fewt, I'd be thrilled to death that another business was capable of generating as much business through marketing as Microsoft does... rather than generating capital through lawsuits... people at this point only sue to get money, not because they have merit.

This whole thing has nothing to do with the way MS is earning their money!!
This hasn't anything to do with a lawsuit because it's a criminal investigation.

Lawsuits in the EU are, unlike in the US, less likely and judges are reluctant to set unproportional high fines for the most stupid things. That a lot of American companies earn money this way that's a pity but don't go telling that's our interest in this case.

Time to through my long time opinion in, its Microsoft's OS, some of it they made themselfs, some of it may have been baught from others, but its still theirs, and they should be able to add in any functionality they want, it shouldn't be illegal for swis army knifes to come with bottle openers.

Someone below posted that windows should include no browser and people should use ftp to gain one. To this I say stop Microsofts monopoly on console-based windows ftp clients! It shouldn't be bundled with windows either.

Seriously though, I can just picture my dad with his glasses hunting and pecking at keys ....one ....key..... slowly... at... a... time... as some manual says or isp tech support guy tells him what to do over the phone. Mistypes one key and starts all over again.

Now it would be very easy to get into what "I" think they should do, but so long as your not forced to use media player, IE, etc, and they're not *preventing* you from using other software, its just customer feedback.

The Law, someplaces or everywhere may not agree with this, I'm just stating my moral opinion. Unless they are decieving, wrongfully taking something from you or directly preventing you from using competitors products I don't see anything wrong with it.
/Rant

that's the way I feel too Jim. It is customer feedback.. but other customerd disagree, so they get angry with MS for giving the majority customers what they want..

If people want to point fingers, they need to start with their neighbors.

I’m myself is from the EU (Pleased to say that I am not living in the EU anymore) and what these EU communist are trying to do is simply stupid.

Who would benefit from Windows without a mediaplayer, anti-spyware and published knowledge of the inner workings of Windws? Not the consumers.
I think EU citizens and corporations need to begin asking questions about why EU tries to limit their computer experience, security and who is sponsoring these attacks on Microsoft and everyone living/Operating in the EU. If there was a real alternative (As in the early 1990) to Windows that Microsoft made unfair business practices against I would say do some thing about it, but as we all known today there is no alternative for the masses.
And for me an OS in 2007 should include all the products that comes bundle with Vista and maybe even more. Why does EU want us to take a step back?

I agree with a lot of people who say that the products that are bundled with Windows is limited in features (some products are even bad) and could be done better but this means that there are markets for others to exploit, which should be the only thing that EU cares about. And even if MS Windows was perfect why complain about it. As I see it why don’t IBM, Google or some of the other big corporations make a real alternative to Windows as according to Microsoft it only takes about 50 million lines of code which should be possible to do for about 3-5 billion USD and probably even less if you have no legacy to implement.

I find it some what questionable that all of these anti-thrust cases started up because they claimed that Microsoft was hurting innovation because of their monopoly. Today everything that comes out of the EU trade commission will only stop innovation by killing new good products that puts pressure on old products to renew them self if they want to exists.
What have really changed over the last 10 years in the virus killer/anti-spyware products?
I would say almost nothing and this is because the marked is divided and probably fixed between other mega corporations like Symantec, F-secure, Mcafee and etc.

What about MAC just because they have a product that **cks and now runs on Intel should they not be forced to allow the competition to run on their hardware?
I would say no, if they want to continue to develop nice looking hardware and not being able to sell it because they only allow crappy software to run directly on it so be it. I haven’t heard anything from EU about this, probably because this subject is not in the interest of their sponsors or maybe Apple can not be fined as much as Microsoft and still pay.

Regarding the Media Player:

Since no media player on windows today runs without DirectShow(and the filters) all media players running on Winodws are just GUI’s and I think most people’s needs are covered by the MS Media-Player GUI. More then that if someone out there really makes a GUI that makes a difference they will have a market and be able to beat the MS media player no matter if this is bundle with Windows or not.

I think the answer from Microsoft should be to change its strategy and bundle DirectShow with Media player and simply say no Media Player no DirectShow.
Then anyone developing a Media Player would learn what it means to develop a Media player and properly fail. And within 2 days EU would be suing MS to get MS Media-Player back and the consumers will get what they want.
Of cause Media players in 2006 also offers sync with other devices but is this a threat to anyone, I think that a lot of small companies that want to take up the competition with Apple will see this as a gift. Because they do not need to invest much in sync as they can plug into MS Media player. And for those who wants an IPod install the software which runs even if the media player is installed.
In the end I thing the only ones who will gain from Windows without a media player is REAL,Apple and Google. Do we really need to support these mega corporations at the cost of simplicity for the average user?

As for Microsoft integrating MSN search into the browser, I don’t care as their search engine **cks and I will still be using Google. Maybe for some users this is a problem because they are used to the Google search bar and can not figure out how to write www.google.com but this was a choice Google made not Microsoft. If they had made no search bar people would have had to use the browser directly and anyway Microsoft will still allow other software to integrate into IE.

In the end MS Windows has giving us so much and I for one want to have so much more then what is in Windows including the next version, but all of this anti-thrust **it is not getting me any closer to getting what I want.
To be honest I do not care if MS gets my money or some else as longer as I’m getting closer to what I want. And if it takes a pseudo monopoly to get a streamlined system that integrates with all the other technologies that surrounds me I have no problem with that.

Sony, HP, Dell, Lenovo, and the white box retailer around the corner would all like to work towards providing the streamlined multi media computer system of your dreams.

They just need to be free to take the best of the best toss the rest(IE) and deliver the systems their customer really want, without Microsoft telling them what they have to bundle.

If what you really want is 100% Microsoft I am sure you will always be able to find that. But real competition means you could also choose from PC's with other software configurations.

I am sorry but Sony has been trying for so many years but never succeeded and they never will because they have lost their innovation and talent.

HP could maybe do it but they will have to gamble their existence on it. And why is it exactly that I should suffer to make it easier for HP?

Lenovo will be loosing enough money with their laptops and on top they are only stupid Box movers. The future is in software not hardware.

I think that you can choose a PC with the configuration you like and if you choose Windows you will get IE. I have never seen anywhere where is says that you most buy Microsoft.
Why should it not be Microsoft’s decision to decide what is shipped with their products?

Is it Microsofts fault that they made the best OS and everyone wanted it?

Microsoft's OS was never the best. It was good enough and cheap enough that PC builders used it. It was open enough that developer's wrote software for it. When became ubiquitous and a monopoly, Microsoft decided it could bully PC builders and tell them what software they could and could not install on their own brand of PCs. Next Microsoft raised the price, and used dirty tricks to disadvantage other software companies. It was wrong and it injured other companies and their customers. That is why so many PC bulders and software developers are struggling and looking for relief, and why Microsoft has multiple criminal convictions around the world.

If Microsoft pulls out of the EU or Korea we will finally get a real international standard for PC hardware and software. Then we will really see who can make the best software. If they had not abused their advantage Microsoft could have owned the de facto standard forever.

What? Are you nuts? Look around you man, its the biggest single selling OS in the world. Its not the best? Get the F#$K out of here, goob.

XP is way better than any unix, linux, or whatever crap you can put on a desktop, with maybe the exception of Apple. XP is excellent, you wanker. I don't know what kind of machines you work on, but you don't know anything if you think Windows is simply some over rated software that does nothing more than a task launcher. You need to learn to actually use a product, and quit whining.

Maybe your OS sucks, because you have no idea what you are doing.. so you will experience crashes, because you don't know how to support it.

If I had an armored Hummer, a case of hand grenades, and my buddy crazy Steve riding shotgun I could win any NASCAR race even though I didn't have "the best" race car. Of course then I would face criminal prosecution and have to pay billions in fines and civil judgments.

I've read a lot of comments in the "MS-EU topics" about the EU only being after MS because it's an American company and if it was an European company it would be left alone. I refuse to believe that! That's just plain silly.

On the other way around i believe that it would be a lot quieter over here if MS was an European company. It's WW3 in the making over here...

Vista isn't even out yet and they are already pseudo-threatning them with another suit. Here's my advice to the EU...go to hell. use linux and shutup.

That's a stupid advice: Linux is not usable, so they cannot use linux. Linux is for masturbating geeks that have nothing else to do but tinkering with their amateur OS.
I have a better advice: Use OSX! OSX is good, windows is bad. Now go away.

The EU is really starting to piss mi off. They might as well merge with RIAA. If you don't like the damn product don't ****ing buy it. I don't use windows media player, I never did. But it never prevented me from installing other media players. So what's the ****ing problem? Are the people in the EU so ****ing retarded they can't set their files to open to a specific programm???

Here's a thought, since the EU is being such a pain in the ass. They should be banned from using Vista. Anyone in the EU caught using Vista will have to pay a hefty fine or prison time. But that's just my opinion, I could be wrong. (but i'm not) heheh

"The EU is really starting to piss mi off. They might as well merge with RIAA."

LMAO!!! Funniest thing I've heard all day!

PUll out! Pull out! Pull out of europe.

F.U. EU

Just curious, but if they just offered two different installers to EU customers, wouldn't that work? I mean, why not have XPEU, which like I said would have the holy hell stripped out, a full install, and the ability to add stuff that consumers want? Maybe it'd be a more complex install program, but why wouldn't that solve the whole thing?

Browser ability within windows - check
Third party media players - check
Windows Media player - uncheck
MSN preinstall - uncheck
AOL preinstall - grayed out for sanity

I don't get it though -- people install crap all the time. MS has never disallowed an installation, right?

You are trying to infuse common sense to a group that wants to create havoc.

That would be WAaay to easy. I mean they are basically stating that people in Europe are too stupid to figure out how to do a custom install, and ONLY install features they want. If they leave it, and don't complain, gee that must mean it doesn't bother them.

This comes down to 1 guy in Europe with a hard on for MS. That's it. This is some guy with clout throwing his weight around, because he can...

"Just curious, but if they just offered two different installers to EU customers, wouldn't that work?"

I asked someone very close to MS about this (useful euphemism for "ex-employee) because it's a pet peeve of mine. I LIKE choices. I was given the following eminently plausible explanation:

It's a lot easiery to support a single standard build rather than permutations of that build. Doing it this way keeps support costs down as opposed to the alternative."

I work in an environment where I'm responsible for the Corporate Condom (anti-virus / anti-spam / anti-malware) on 12K desktops.

I see his point - it's a purely business decision.

Sadly, many programs rely on WMP and IE. I've been looking at the StopIE site, and apparently many Virus scanners use IE to download their updates.

Microsoft offered customized setups since Windows 3.0 (the first I used) upto 2000, I think. In 1990 you could choose if you want to install which components, flawless. They REMOVED from setup such options and that's a bad behavior.
I'm far away from EU court but I understand their worries.
For example: Windows media player is spyware and shouldn't be bundled at all. Internet Exploited is a risk for any living soul, M$N me$$enger is a pest. We should be able to, not uninstall but *NEVER* install such components.
European court seems to worry about their citizens and their rights, north-american seems to have another worries, don't you?

"Windows media player is spyware and shouldn't be bundled at all"

Spyware? You must have the wrong definition of spyware. Quicktime...now that might be spyware.

"Internet Exploited is a risk for any living soul"

So with the next version of windows MS should not include IE...then you can go and download any browser you like. Oh wait...you don't have IE how would you download another browser...I guess it's off to Best Buy to buy pay for a browser...

"M$N me$$enger is a pest"

You're entitled to your opinion...but if everything about windows sucks so bad...why are you using it??

"European court seems to worry about their citizens and their rights, north-american seems to have another worries, don't you?"

Oh they sure do...

MS: We've included a free media player in windows, you can always download and install a 3rd party one if you like.

EU: NO!!! Make our citizens pay for a media player! Do not give them one for free!!

MS: We've given you a free internet browser in windows, you can always download and installa 3rd party one if you like.

EU: Unacceptable!! Make them pay for an internet browser! We will not allow our citizens to have any sort of free browser!

Yea I can see where they are looking out for the interest of it's citizens...I'm definetly going to have to move there asap!

"Oh wait...you don't have IE how would you download another browser...I guess it's off to Best Buy to buy pay for a browser..."

um, no. ever heard of file transfer protocol? before IE was bundled you could choose to install it seperately or FTP to ftp.netscape.com and download and install their browser.

"EU: NO!!! Make our citizens pay for a media player! Do not give them one for free!!"

once again, playing the FUD line I see. there are many free media player choices. you dont have to BUY anything

"EU: Unacceptable!! Make them pay for an internet browser! We will not allow our citizens to have any sort of free browser!"

what delusional world you live in? firefox is free, there are shareware browsers such as opera and others that you can use forever without paying a licensing feee - all that fee does is show support and unlock extra features.

Opera is a free browser, its not shareware anymore.

I mean that IE and Media player and M$N me$$enger should not be MANDATORY. Now you can't choose if you want them on your computer installed or not. In fact, if you go to control panel (after the OS finished loading alll their crap) to uninstall, for example the msn messenger, the control panel announce: Ok, is not there anymore. Now go to your program files folder and guess what? M$N me$$enger is still there! The only thing Microsoft removed is the shorcut. It's hard to believe that's just for compatibility reasons, no way! And also you can't uninstall IE without downloading a separate 3rd party software, got it?
After all, I was writing about we to CHOOSE what to install without have to build your own windows (nlite and such). That was already implemented many years ago, and was removed, WHY?
It's ok if MS wants to Offer windows spy player, internet exploited and every byte of crap they want, but give us, at least, the choice to avoid such crap to fall in our hard disks, choices, not give or not to give.
They have the right to include every single bit of dark software they want to, We should have the right to install them or not, or better, not install "problematic" components by default.

Pardon me eunichman, but clearly you do not know many computer users. While YOU may be able to easily fire up command line FTP to get to ftp.netscape.com and download the browser, my grandmother/grandfather, aunts & uncles, and most of the people I know that use the internet daily could not. Hell, I implement systems designed to be as simple as possible and we still get what sound like silly questions. In short, not everyone is an expert computer user such as yourself.

And just a question, since you are such an avid supporter of FireFox and its usage...did you use IE to download FireFox or did you yourself go out and ftp download it? How did you know how to ftp download it? Did you go to Best Buy and get instructions or did you use IE to go to Google and figure it out?

FTP.exe is MICROSOFT's software for using ftp via internet/intranet. So in a perfect EU, ftp.exe will not exist either.

Where do we draw the line? Should telnet.exe be mandatory? How about chkdsk? Or how about winnt256.bmp? DEL.EXE? Should they allow removal of Recycle Bin? Apple needs to get the EU to sue MS for stealing their trash can idea, right?

The line should be drawed exactly where we want to draw it, not where they want to drive us, that's the point, don't be fool.
About Apple, they should sue MS for so many things that I couldn't count them.
But Apple *could* sue MS if they don't make dark agreements like they do from time to time: Last I read here sounded like: We release more (buggy) Mac Office versions and you don't open your system to everybody... Of course it should be far more complex, but don't want to write a book here...

when i first got my foirst computer I was as clueless as most of todays pc users. I however like to be able to know what I am using and how to use it - in all walks of life. my appliances, my vehicles and my computers. I found ftp back in the old days of dos/win 3.1 (what my system came with) and os/2 warp connect (what a friend loaded on my computer at that time). laziness is no excuse for not knowing how to use your computer. I dont support anyone who is lazy in any way. You want something in this world you have to go out and work for it and get it. Lazy people shouldnt be permitted computers :)

and fyi? I downloaded firefox using my linux box :) no IE :) I used konquerer :)

When will legislators learn to shut up and leave companies and the market to do what they do best? I'm SO tired of this "mother hen school marm" syndrome.

Business isn't fair.

Some competitors will fail.

That's life.

Deal with it.

If MS wants to put everything in the OS, LET THEM. If it's good, it will endure. If it isn't then someone will build something better and try and sell it or open source will produce it. We don't need Mommy or so-called "professional do-gooders" stepping in at every turn.

The Market Will Decide if it's left alone to do so instead of being subject to incessant meddling by government.

The Market Will Decide if it's left alone to do so instead of being subject to incessant meddling by government.

Exactly if any one is to be blamed blame Apple and the Linux comunities the other OS choices for not providing better competition for Microsoft.

mother hen.. that's funny..

I like it.

There's no way anyone bringing out a OS better than Windows would succeed as Microsoft would use their billions and existing market influences to put it out of business.

Great business sense, but a shame for us consumers who might have benefited.

...and if they did, THAT'S BUSINESS.

This is not a school dance. It's dog - eat - dog.

BeOS was great. It died. Next...

Microsoft put Linux out of buiness thats the funniest thing yet considering most distros are free even Microsoft with all it's money and power could not kill Linux if they wanted to.

So again blame the other OSes for not providing better competition for Microsoft.

BeOS lacked features IMO... It had nothing preinstalled.

If Windows was like BeOS, it would die too. The EU is trying to kill Windows. Personally, I think the EU is breaking the law.

get used to government meddling. this is just one area of many the government sticks their nose in because they can and there is nothing you can do about it :)

agreed

LOL the EU is breaking the law. that's funny. Like MS never broke the law? who's law? US law? who cares, the EU isnt the US and they have a right to have their own laws seperate of US laws

Since this is an EU thing only, why are all you Americans so upset about it?

You can still have XP and Vista just the way you like it - with a monolithic OS where Microsoft decide what tools you'll use.

eunichman

I posted my replay before you agreed so how about you try to atleast try to put up a proper arguement about how the othe OSes are to blame.

Or could it be that i am right and your just too anti-MS to admit it.

First i'm not american.

Second how about you go to the top of the page and click on where it says FileForum look at all those nice programs Microsoft is not deciding what i use at all other than the ones i choose to.

Made the mistake of commenting. I should learn to stay away from these stories.

How is this asinine? Maybe if they chose a legit path instead of gaining their monopoly illegally then there would still be competition and governments wouldn't have to force them to behave.

I agree with that statement, but I don't buy it for a second that the EU thinks this is the best way to do it.

I'm getting out of here before I get too involved. My first comment was a knee-jerk reaction. My apologies. Bah. It's a Wednesday. I never could get the hang of Wednesdays. =p

"Still, the Commission is giving Microsoft the benefit of the doubt, spokesperson Jonathan Todd told reporters. "We assume Microsoft has its own interest at heart and it wants to launch another product without having to worry about the Commission instituting various actions under antitrust law because of this product," he said.

In a response, Microsoft assured European regulators it would open the door to third parties in Vista."

There is no problem. ;-)

It's hard not to post your opinion on stories like this. Everyone's opinion is so different that it makes for interesting "conversation".

heh

Yup, that was the first thing i thought but i never seem to be able not to reply when a lot of bulls*** is posted. Everyone is entitled to have an own opinion but a lot of the comments are just crap.

I'll drink to that

Have another drink on me

lol

windws media player is wayyy better than alot of other crap....they can remove it from there OS..i'll still download it for free from there wesite....damn haters!

I can't say it is a lie, but on the other hand having Media Player Clasic for Video, and foobar2000 for Music, Windows Media Player seems to be a crap :|

I'm from Poland And I don't see why would WMP be anti competitive? The people are just stupid don't trying to get info about the alternative. M$ may look like "evil" company, but only becouse most of computer users are half-brained :(

MS isn't evil cause their dominant. Their evil cause their software is hell buggy.

But personally, I'd use WMP over Real Player and IE over Netscape any day :( :P

You said it yourself. Most computer users are half-brained. This is where MS profits from. So there should be some clearly understandable setup routine where users can choose the programs they want.

Sounds like the EU is doing their job and MSFT is trying to work with them to satisfy their concerns.

I don't see a problem here.

...you wouldn't

Perhaps because there isn't a problem.

LOL

There isn't.

Allright then.

Fair competition fair competition wha wha wha

As long as Microsoft allows third party software there is fair competition just because it runs faster and better because it's built into the OS so what they earned that advantage because they made the OS and if you don't like it build your own Linux and Apple ring a bell.

Ah, let 'em invent their very own EUROTRASH O/S they can use that. Who give a crap?

And another...

So, wats the poin with the acid comentaries around here? EU want COMPETITION and not MONOPOL. I total agree with the EU point of view! Im from Europe. When is monopol, we need someoane ore somewhat to reestablish the eguality of choices. And Im sore EU have this tratement around microsoft not beacouse is an EU company. Recently the same EU comission has asked the EU mobilephone companies why they have unjustified werry big prices for minut of conversation. Werry soon they will make attitude whith this companies who AR EUs. (Vodafone, etc.). So, in conclusion, microsoft dont have an special tratement beacouse isnt from EU. WE WANT FAIR COMPETITION!

exactly who is stopping you from buying a mac or a linux powered machine?

Fair competition is not about dictating what feature the OS should have. Fair competition is about letting MS to innovate without abusing it monopoly power.

What EU is doing now is protecting MS's competitors, not ensuring fair competition.

I remember when an OS was just an OS, no protocol stacks, no GUI, no applications, just a platform to build on.

Isn't there an old proverb about building your home on s***ing sands? Windows is more like quicksand. If you build anything good it will be swallowed up.

Microsoft should let the people that build and support the computers decide what to install.

Yeah, progress sucks, eh?

Back when an OS was "just a kernel", no-one used computers. It wasn't until MS, IBM, and others started making them useful that they became popular.

A kernel isn't going to do my parents 1 bit of good. An OS with a media player, a browser, an email app, and a decent interface just might.

Want a stable platform to develop from? Great, any nixish OS will do. Apparently, the consumer wants something else...

Untrue, back in the C64 days computers were as popular as ever. Now, MS IBM and others revolutionized the industry for sure but computers were popular long before Microsoft was a household name. (Though, they created the BASIC OS on most of those computers including the C64)

There is no fair competition if you are allowed to stamp out all of your competitors.

Go read up on the anti-trust act for example.

Capitalism doesn't work in an anarchist society. Capitalism works in America (and elsewhere in the world) because there are laws that provide checks and balances. Without them Capitalism would fail.

"the consumer wants something else..."

As if the average consumer actually had a choice.

I look for the day my parents can choose to buy a new computer from brand A, B, or C each with a different software stack. If choices scare you, just stick with brand M, they will keep you locked in, safe and snug.

I agree with your statements again--that's twice in one week! Man this is freaky...

heh

The C64 was not anywhere near as popular. Just about every home in america has a PC or Mac. How many of those houses had a C64 or Tandy?

Sheesh...

Enough for it to make the guiness book of world records.

The C64 was the most popular computer of all time

I don't disagree that NOW almost every home in
America has a PC or a Mac but the C64 revolutionized the PC industry being among the first "easy to use" and "inexpensive" home computers. They made the record by selling over 30M (err 17M) of them, what other company has done that?

None of them have. ;-)

(digging for a link)

"Recently the Commodore 64 made a listing in the Guiness Book of World Records for "The most units sold of a single model of computer." Over the 10 years the Commodore 64 sold over 17million units all sporting the same features it originally had back in 1982."

http://www.commodore.ca/...ology_portcommodore.htm

"Over the 10 years the Commodore 64 sold over 17million units all sporting the same features it originally had back in 1982."

Yeah, now I'm really worried. Not only do I agree, but I was about to tell him the same thing!

Probably the same person who stops things that don't go exactly the way I want them to go: GWB!

heh

...and lest we forget, IBM wrote the book on monopoly and so-called "unfair practices".

NO ONE does FUD as well as IBM.

No one at all.

Okay, they made the record books.

Goody.

Compare that 17mil to the number of current PC users int he US. I agree Comodore was an awesome system, and even ran my 1st BBS off of one. (300 baud...yeeeouch.)

I simply disagree that they had anywhere near the impact modern computing has had.

1 company compared to the billions of PCs out there now doesn't cut it.

Yes, the commodore rocked. Yes, I used one for quite some time (karateka and some BBS I can't remember the name of....oh...and Legacy of the Ancients....awesome game, btw)

I still don't think it had anywhere near the impact on the world that modern OSes have had in bringing the PC into the home by average users.

They were definately ahead of their time, but then again...so was Amiga...look where it got them.

I absolutely respect that, and I agree in a lot of ways. They both were revolutionary in their own right in my opinion.

:-)

mmm 300baud, the good old days. Did your BBS have an LT Kernel? We upgraded from the 1350 (300bps) to the 1650 (1200bps Hayes) pretty darned quickly.

Our BBS started on a 286 though.

haha

MS made the PC more accessible (and popular) for a larger group of people by developing GUI's, easy to install programms, easy to add hardware, etc.

That this accessibility comes at a price (i.e. security risks) is the downside. But most people just wouldn't know what to do with Linux (some distributions are improving but aren't quite there yet).

I think my 1st 286 BBS started on a 2800, with a 40MB Hard Drive.

That was actually the first computer I ever started taking apart and seeing "how it worked".

Heh...

Also where I learned magnets + Hard Drive = Really cool, multi-colored, strobe-light.

The trip to the store to replace that one cost me a 400MB Hard Drive, enhanced IDE controller, and a super-fast 14.4 modem.

ah....life was simpler back then.

How many times do we have to read the same crap here on Beta News? How many times is enough?

wish i could rate some betanews articles a -1 :P

You, sir, are a waste of time.

I'm sure if Microsoft was a European company there wouldn't be this amount of bureaucracy. What about Apples explorer and search? Think the EU’s miffed due to Microsoft saying the EU was in collusion with other companies. Where does the money go from the fines the EU enforce?

Vista EU edition. Strip the holy hell out of it.

@Drumcat
LOL....here you go EU! Here's the Kernel, no source. Have fun!

Ha ha, you have best idea. Vista EU edition = Kernel only, no graphical user interface, EU users have to activate every features they want to use. Let's EU consumers pay for EU commision's stupidity.

Or may be no Vista for EU at all, let them use WindowsXP and loss their productivity.

Users wouldn't have to install their own software, unless they wanted to. More likely the system builders, retailers, and corporate IT departments would get to choose what software ran on their computers. Manufacturers would love to be able to produce machines that are unique, but still compatible.

Diversity is healthier than mono-culture. Choice is better than monopoly.

I know it's unrealistic, but I would love to see MS just pull out of EU entirely. Leave them and let them go find their own replacement products. I'm sure that would be cheap and easy to do (not!). All this pi$$ing and moaning from both sides is like listening to toddlers fighting over toys. Stupid.

wow, I had this same idea. I would let the customers complain to the EU, and let them battle it out.

That's was my thought too, MS should just say FU to the EU, and see how far they get. They are big enough, if people in Europe can't get MS software, you can bet they would raise holy hell.

I agree with your points, but MS has done nothing but comply with EU orders, they aren't complaining at all, they have been very agreeable... Ever since the feds brought suit with the Anti-trust, MS isn't about to have a pissing contest with another government.

I don't know why Microsoft don't just say bye bye EU, and pull out of the market. I know its a big market, but realistically, I'd give them 2 weeks before they allow Microsoft back without conditions.

Also, Microsoft IS appealing the ruling by the EU Commission in Court, and that is scheduled to be heard this April, so will see where that goes. Hopefully the Court reverses the Commission's decision. I have no clue how their legal system works though.

Tech

To be honest i think it would be amazing if Microsoft pulled out of the EU. I'm from the UK and i don't really want the computer industry run by a company which has been proven to be untrustworthy. Plus the less of America in Europe the better.

Jesus... where do you people come from?

MS is never pulling out of EU... The fine they'll get imposed would be reduced from 2mil to 1mil per day just because obviously MS has made SOME attempt to comply. Then MS will fully comply to whatever the hell the EU wants, as unfair as they may feel they're being treated.

Personally I feel it's going to be great for consumers in the US to see how deep MS can get castrated. This also means MS will be forced to lower prices to some "fair" amount the EU dictates in the next few years, once MS totally eradicates software piracy by means of hardware encryption chips. Naturally, this low amount will soon be what American customers would demand to pay as well. It'll probably end up being $20/yr for Windows, $10/yr for Office for the first 3 years. If MS doesn't produce a new OS/Office in 3 years, obviously they lose, since if you bought a PC that has a 3yr old OS, you'll pay $0 for the OS and Office. MS is a monopoly, so doing this to them lawfully is actually pretty easy/feasible. Otherwise, as you know, they have no incentive to produce in a timely manner.

Let me guess your american and think Linux must be crap because it's free.

Troll!

Linux has nothing to do with this discussion, please troll it elsewhere.

As far as being american and thinking the EU is screwing the MS thing up royally, the two are unrelated. Trust me. We got 'em for Anti-trust once as well, remember?

Let me guess you make hastey generalizations so much that soon everyone will be just like Saddam and Hitler.

"We got 'em for Anti-trust once as well, remember?"

You tried. At the end of the day you blew it. Rightly so, too.

I recall one pundit up here in Canada saying "Come on up, Billy. We appreciate our winners here and don't have this idiotic mindset that once you become successful, you're the anti-christ. Leave the wannabes and whiners to what they deserve."

Too true.

Tried?

Wow... Did you miss that one?

http://www.justice.gov/atr/cases/f4400/4469.htm

Found Guilty of using their Monopoly position to engage in illegal anti-competitive business practices.

We didn't try, we did. And *that* is how we blew it. By proving beyond all reasonable doubt our Justice system should be the *last* people asked to consider such cases.

I agree with you on the lameness of persecuting the successful, but just wanted to correct ya on the anti-trust thing.

Less of America in Europe, Huh. Maybe we shouldn't have bothered going to Europe in the 1940's. Of course then MS would have been facing the Nazi EU and you all would have been hailing the fueher Hitler the II.

So by paying a fine MS can just go on doing what they've been doing for years.

The EU is doing the same but doesn't crumble under the pressure. I hope the punishment, if MS found "guilty", will be severe.

Just thought the same the other way around.

What else could they have done? The case was in reference to Windows 95. By the time it ended, win95 had come and gone.

So all MS has to do is pouring out new OS' and they're safe. Good job.