RSSEchoStar Wins Stay of TiVo Injunction
By Ed Oswald | Published August 18, 2006, 12:53 PM
After suffering a major court defeat that required EchoStar to disable DVR functionality used by millions of its subscribers, the satellite TV company has won a temporary reprieve. The Federal Circuit Court of Appeals in Washington, D.C. has temporarily stayed the injunction won by TiVo.
"As a result of the stay EchoStar can continue to sell, and provide to consumers, all of its digital video recorder models," the company said in a statement. "We continue to believe the Texas decision was wrong, and should be reversed on appeal. We also continue to work on modifications to our new DVRs, and to our DVRs in the field, intended to avoid future alleged infringement."
The stay is not permanent, however, and the injunction could still stand upon further review by the Court of Appeals.
TiVo downplayed the significance of the stay, saying that it was a routine action to give a court sufficient time to decide if the injunction should take effect during the appeal. "We are very pleased by recent developments involving the issuance of a permanent injunction in our patent case against EchoStar by the United States District Court, Eastern District of Texas," the company said in a statement.
"The court of appeals temporarily stayed the district court injunction only until it decides whether a stay should or should not be in effect for the duration of the appeals process. The court stated that the temporary stay is not based on a consideration of the merits of EchoStar’s request," TiVo added.
TiVo had earlier won the critical victory as part of a patent infringement case against EchoStar, the parent company of DISH Network. A federal judge in Texas ruled Friday that the satellite company must immediately stop the production, sale and use of its digital video recorders within 30 days.
U.S. District Judge David Folsom also forced EchoStar to pay TiVo nearly $74 million in damages as awarded by jury, although he denied TiVo's motion to increase the damages. The final penalty would increase to $90 million based on $5.4 million in interest payments and $10.3 million in supplemental damages however, he ruled.
The ruling means that millions of EchoStar customers will lose DVR capabilities capabilities within a month. The issue now puts EchoStar in a precarious position: either negotiate with TiVo, or risk losing subscribers.
"TiVo is pleased that Judge Folsom has granted a permanent injunction against EchoStar's DVR products along with supplemental damages and interest," the company said in a statement. "This decision recognizes that our intellectual property is valuable and will ensure that moving forward EchoStar will be unable to use our patented technology without our authorization."
A federal jury ruled against EchoStar in April, saying the company willfully infringed on TiVo's patent surrounding the ability to play one television show while recording another, in addition to various DVR functions including the pausing of live television. TiVo filed for an injunction in May.
Folsom agreed with both sides that DVR technologies are "sticky," or that once the customer signs on to the technology, they usually do not migrate to another provider. Thus, TiVo would be losing customers to DISH's solution, and the only way to prevent further damage would be through an injunction.
EchoStar tried to defend itself by saying the suit's timing showed TiVo was not suffering financial harm. Folsom disagreed, noting TiVo had attempted to negotiate with the company during that time.
In an early morning statement, EchoStar disagreed with much of TiVo's position, and said it expected to win on appeal. "We believe that, for a number of reasons, the Texas Court should be reversed in all other respects on appeal. We also continue to work on modifications to our new DVRs, and to our DVRs in the field, intended to avoid future infringement," it said in a statement.
I'm an Echostar (Dish) subscriber with the DVR and I love the DVR...after having about 90 hours of programs on it. I hope Echostar is able to fight TiVo to keep the DVR. I would hate to loose my DVR functionality, as I watch shows on it more than live TV!!!
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|I have one question about this whole deal. Why is this lawsuit only against DISH, does direct TV have a license with TIVO to market their DVR's? To my knowledge direct TV's DVR is essentially identical to dish's. Or is their some fundamental difference that makes direct TV's equipment novel enough to not infringe on TIVO's patent.
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|"does direct TV have a license with TIVO to market their DVR's?"
Yup!!!
And Tivo tried to negotiate a deal with Echostar too, but Echostar refused - hence the lawsuit! Blame Echostar!
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|RAMBUS tried to collect money from all of the memory makers because they claimed they had the patent on SDRAM. Several of the makers caved in and started paying them, like DirecTV is paying Tivo. A few others stood up to them in court and RAMBUS got their rear end handed to them. Same will happen here.
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|Really!
You must be talking about on 4.24.06 when Rambus WON their $306M suit against Hynex that was more than twice their 2005 earnings!!!
http://news.com.com/Ramb...100-1006_3-6064340.html
If that is "getting their rear end handed to them", I sure wish I could have my posterior handed to me like that!
GET YOUR FACTS STAIGHT!
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|LOL, good job posting OLD outdated news!
"Earlier this month (July 2006), a federal judge in California tossed out a $307 million jury award to Rambus"
http://news.com.com/Ramb...110-1006_3-6099626.html
"On August 2, 2006, the Federal Trade Commission stated that Rambus illegally monopolized the memory industry"
http://www.internetnews....ews/article.php/3624206
Nice try though Tivo boy.
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|Except in the case of RAMBUS, they were the ones gaming the system. TiVo showed that DISH was well aware that they were copying TiVos designs, after TiVo approached them to enter a license agreement.
DirecTV agreed to use TiVo's technology from the start, and only introduced their own DVR when the original license agreement expired. (And they recently renewed that agreement to keep supporting existing DirectTV Tivo units).
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|When TiVo applied for this patent, something
like 16 years ago, it was not obvious that you
could build a _digital_ tv recorder using disk
drive technology. I proposed a digital TV set
in the mid-1980s, and all during that time none
of the people I talked to suggested building a
TiVo kind of device. So, no, the original
patent does not fail the "obviousness test".
After ten years of TiVo being widely available,
and with today's college students not being
able to remember a time before TiVo was out,
there is a danger of applying today's standards
of obviousness to the early 1990's.
It looks to me like EchoStar are just a bunch
of ripoffs. They blatantly copied TiVo's stuff
and more-or-less challenged them to sue, and
then used their ill-gotten gains to hire a
bunch of lawyers and PR types to stop TiVo
from getting justice. Oh, yeah, they almost
put TiVo out of business with their low-cost
competition. (Nothing like stealing your tech
to cut your costs: R&D is expensive. . .)
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|What about Microsoft's Media Center? It has the same functionality and I haven't heard anything about TiVo suing them, and there is nothing about Microsoft licensing their technology. EchoStar must have done something very specific.
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|They know Microsoft would crush them like a bug if they tried to pull this ridiculous nonsense on them.
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|In the earlier court case, Tivo showed that specific (and unique) parts of thier designs were copied by DISH. Parts that allowed the Tivo to work work without needing as much CPU power as a standard PC.
The Media Center PC did not need to copy those designs because MS based it on using the power of the CPU that was there in the PC in the first place.
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|So TiVo has patented fast-forwarding? Holy crapzilla. Only a Texas court could rule for this idiocy. Go EchoStar!
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|You know, I usually don't get too perturbed over some comments on this site, but I must express amazement at some of the comments in this thread! Seldom have I heard such idiotic comments from some of the folks here! And that is saying alot on THIS site!
So you think the patent is simply over "fast forwarding"? And others think their VCR can do it, huh?
Get your head out of your posterior and find out what you are carping about!
I have NO problem with someone issuing an informed dissent or complaint, as long as they have some BASIC understanding of what they are talking about. But the degree of ignorance displayed here is ridiculous! And a few of you have only demonstrated your complete and utter ignorance.
The specific patent is patent #6233389
A multimedia time warping system. The invention allows the user to store selected television broadcast programs while the user is simultaneously watching or reviewing another program.
If your VCR can do this, I'll eat it!
And if you developed it and patented it, then YOU could sue!
Echostar didn't, and instead of negotiating the rights to use the technology, they simply went ahead and used it anyway! Tivo attemtpted to negotiate licensing with Echostar as they did with DirestTV, but Echostar refused, essentially telling them to take the issue to court!
The ruling is correct. Tivo played by the rules and won.
So evidently some "good ol' boy" (or girl) judge in Texas is just a little smarter then you!
Am I a TIVO fan? Heck no! As I, quite frankly, desire the ability to skip the commercials too- in effect taking the time warp capability one step further!
"Fast forwarding" and "my VCR can do it"...
Evidently your VCR & a Texas judge can do another thing that you can't..."think"!
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|"A multimedia time warping system. The invention allows the user to store selected television broadcast programs while the user is simultaneously watching or reviewing another program. If your VCR can do this, I'll eat it!
"
I hope you have a healthy appetite then because there are VCRs that can do that. They have two tuners so you can record and watch another channel at the same time. Of course since TVs all have tuners too, anyone with a VCR can do this already. They also make dual deck VCRs where you can record on one tape while watching another. Then there are all the set top DVD recorders that have these features for YEARS. Get off your high horse and get back on your nerve medication.
"The ruling is correct".
The Federal Circuit Court of Appeals in Washington, D.C. says your wrong.
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|Great post foxfyre, Spot on!
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|Ok let me go in depth on my anger here. Am I angry at TIVO? yes. Why? Because they are sueing Echostar for the patents? NO! I don't give a crap to be honest. What is ticking me off is TIVO having Echostar turn off my dam DVR. Punish Echostar all you want see if I care. But when they go trying to punish me I start getting PO'd!!! Because last time I checked I didn't infringe on TIVO's patents. So can you kinda see where Im going with this? Im not trying to be rude just kinda trying to better explain myself.
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|I'm guessing you never had a VCR back when? Don't forget a large part of Tivo's case was the 30-second skip function. God forbid the fools populating the Texas courts can't figure that that is not a protected innovation. Tivo maybe be PO'd, but the Court of Appeals was right on this one.
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|"a large part of Tivo's case was the 30-second skip function. God forbid the fools populating the Texas courts can't figure that that is not a protected innovation."
Fascinating point...but Tivo did not win on the basis of this, so your point is moot! God forbid fools like you figure this out!
And I LOVE the Echostar reply:
"We also continue to work on modifications to our new DVRs, and to our DVRs in the field, intended to avoid future infringement."
Compliant systems do not need "further modifications...to avoid ...infringement".
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|Your recourse is to sue Echostar for the damages THEY have caused you your problems!! You could have bought a Tivo unit! Echostar could have licensed the technology!
You are like the fool who buys hot merchandise, as it is 'such a great deal', and then whines that when discovered, the cops seize it, and you blame the rightful owner rather than the thief who stole it and fenced it to you!
And as for the idiots who want to claim that there were dual tuner VCRs "for years"...then they should have applied for the patent! Or were those geniuses just too stupid to recognize how innovative they were? Just think, if they had, both Echostar and Tivo would be kissing their posteriors! But they are NOT!
And was Echostar and their lawyers not as smart as YOU, that they could not cite your brilliant fantasy?
And, by all means, Name the dual tuner VCR that did exactly what Tivo does prior to July 30, 1998! And then answer the real question, WHY DIDN'T THEY PATENT IT?
Fast forward button, my @ss! How old are you? Why is my guess 19-23? Go down to the bottom of the page to discover that you actually mean the "rewind" button! You can't fast forward a VCR and see ANYTHING while it is dealing with a real time signal! Or is your proposal for actual time s***ing!? :-S
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|Yes excuse me for not looking up all the copyrights on a system before I buy it. EXCUSE ME!!!! I guess this means Im a fool. Hey everyone Im a fool I didn't check out Echostars' copyrights!!!! You are right I could have bought a TIVO. But I don't want a TIVO. This way I can have 1 reviever instead of 2. Also there is no monthly bill and I didn't haft to shell out several hundred for it. So give me one good dam reason why I should have bought a TIVO.
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|Funny, you sound EXACTLY like the Echostar lawyer!!! They thought that they could get something for nothing too! :))
You got what you paid for! Enjoy!
If you have a b!tch, b!tch to Echostar!
Sorry, we didn't catch the brand of the dual tuner, concurrent VCR that could fast forward (ahead of the program material) and time s***. Could you repeat it a bit louder?
You sound like one of the wackos on Jerry Springer whose partner has had an affair with another person, and instead of holding their 'partner' accountable for their cheating behavior, places all of the blame on the 'other' person!
Here's an idea sure to confuse you: Grow up! Go complain to Echostar and tell them to be responsible and license the technology! DUH!
"So give me one good dam reason why I should have bought a TIVO"
Well,
One, you would have a DVR that won't become disabled, and
Two, we wouldn't have to listen to you whine so!
:)) :)) :)) :)) :))
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|Ok you sir are an idiot. I am talking about when I bought my DVR. When I did there wasn't any lawsuits around and there was no reason at all for me to buy a TIVO. Also I have every right to get mad at TIVO. Also I never said I wasn't mad at Echostar!!! But I am mad at TIVO for punishing me for Echostars wrong doings. TIVO is not doing themselfs any good at all by having Echostar turn off the DVR's. All they are doing is pissing us/the consumer off.
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|This type of outrageous lawsuit is why I won't ever own any products with the Tivo brand stamped on them. I guess I'll be sticking with my superior media center PC.
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|The ULTIMATE victim!
Yes, and its never the fault of the burglar - just ask any criminal - it is ALWAYS the fault of the cops and the courts!
It would make more sense to declare "I won't ever own any products with the (Echostar) brand stamped on them."
I can certainly understand your frustration! But you are directing it at the WRONG party!
Grow up and hold those responsible for the infringement responsible! Echostar is the one you want to complain to! They are the ones who infringed upon TIVOS patent! And their irresponsible bahavior is the source of your problems!
Gee, and just because I bought hot merchandise, the mean old policeman made me give it back!
Your recourse is to sue Echostar! Don't worry, if you are smart, you will get on board what is sure to be a very big train headed in that direction!
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|I don't recall that being a large part of Tivos case, as much as it was a point in how specific parts of the Tivos design allowed for manipulation of the video buffer in ways where the process behind the function was different from other video recording devices.
A larger part of Tivos case was how the media chip which they designed for that process was unique to Tivo branded and created devices, and not as obvious as fast-forward or 30-second skip.
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|>> But I am mad at TIVO for punishing me for Echostars wrong doings.
Tivo's only other choice would be to allow Echostar to continue doing what they have been doing while stalling the case in the appeals courts for years to come. They have already spent years getting to this decision, you are asking for them to continue to be punished for trying to play straight with DISH in the first place.
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|"I hope you have a healthy appetite then because there are VCRs that can do that."
No, this would be the equivalent of a VCR that could do so on a single tape. What you describe is a duplication of the hardware involved for recording, which is little more than stuffing two VCRs into the same box.
The number of tuners is a moot point, because the tuner in itself does not offer the additional functionality of direct control of the video stream.
"The Federal Circuit Court of Appeals in Washington, D.C. says your wrong."
No the Federal Circuit Court of Appeals in Washington, D.C. only spoke on the immediate injunction. The overall ruling still holds,
the appeal has yet to be heard, and AFAIK they did not place a stay on the monetary damages.
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|Because they came up with the idea. What'd you do before TIVO came out with it?
I'm sure they'll license their patents if EchoStar wants to use them.
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|My VCR had a fast forward button long before Tivo. It's not exactly a new concept. This should be thrown out of court.
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|Tivo tried to negotiate the use of their tecnology with Echostar just as they did with DirectTV, but Echostar refused and effectively told them to take it to court...
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|OH REALLY ALEX??? That's a pretty impressive VCR you have. I've never heard of a VCR that can be recording a TV show while you are watching/pausing/fast forwarding/rewinding your recording at the same time.
And does your VCR also record 24/7 keeping a 30 minute buffer of whatever you watch? Of course I'm sure it does because you have the greatest VCR ever.
TIVO didn't copyright the FF button. There technology is a little more complicated than that.
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|This is so stupid. I am rooting for yah Echostar
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|Tivo can die in a fire. Why should they have a monopoly on DVR equipment?
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|i agree,
the idea is too simple, should not be patentable.
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|If it was so easy then you should have patented it. You'd be a millionaire and this technology would have been around in the early 90s.
Thanks for holding out on us. I could have used one of these a long time ago.
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|He said that such a basic concept should not be able to be patented. As for being able to use one a long time ago, hello? Ever hear of the video cassette recorder? They let you record one program while watching another, skip through commercials, etc. Tivo is full of crap.
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|harkens back to the time when Fox tried to copywrite "Fair and Balanced". An idea is not technology. I didn't read anything that even suggested that Echostar reversed engineered any technology. Technology isn't ideas, it is inspired by ideas.
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|I guess that is why Tivo was granted the patent for their technological application!
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|"Ever hear of the video cassette recorder? They let you record one program while watching another, skip through commercials, etc."
Nope, all they did was record a program! And after it was finished recording, you could use your incredibly sophisticated REWIND button to view what you had recorded! Your fast forward button would have simply advanced the tape to a position ahead of any recorded information (assuming it had not be recorded on before - scary how you need to qualify this for some folks!) ONLY by virtue of you having another playback device with a tuner called a TV, you could watch another channel! The VCR itself NEVER did that! ALL THE VCR DID WAS RECORD! Tivo was the one who consolidated the idea that required multiple pieces of equipment into a single unit along with the control system to manage the system. And THEY patented it!
Name the dual tuner VCR that did exactly what Tivo does prior to July 30, 1998!! And then answer the real question, WHY DIDN'T THEY PATENT IT?
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|Because you can't patent an idea. Tivo is full of it on this one and they are going to lose. Sorry to break it to you but it's true.
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|I am sure you think you have made some point...
And patent #6233389 does not exist...whatever you say!
Tivo didn't patent an idea! They patented their implementation of the idea! Am I going to fast?
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|Patents can and have been thrown out. By all means though have fun, until Tivo loses this case.
Wow, an actual Tivo FANBOY.
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|"Name the dual tuner VCR that did exactly what Tivo does prior to July 30, 1998!! And then answer the real question, WHY DIDN'T THEY PATENT IT?"
They did.
'In 1987, while he was still at Go-Video, [Richard] Lang became the patented inventor of the world's first dual-deck VCR.'
Allows you to record two programs at once, watch one while recording another. And yes, (if you have a little imagination), you could use it to 'time-s***'.
http://www.burst.com/new...%20Law&Business.htm
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|A Tivo fanboy? I couldn't care less about Tivo OR Echostar OR Dish OR DirectTV!
But I do tire of the victim mentality and your whining!
Patents have been thrown out...wow! Well, thus far this one hasn't, and TIVO patented a functional application of a concept - especially as you geniuses have failed to mention ONE brand of 'dual tuner' VCR that you geniuses claim could time s***!
After all, YOU folks are the ones who maintain that they existented as a viable product!
Thus far Echosar has lost in court, and the temporary stay is typical in an appeal. And contrary to your incorrect claim above, a temporary stay is NOT a ruling that the prior ruling was incorrect!
Personally I don't lose either way as I don't pay for a Tivo license and I dont have to whine about Echostar - but the folks locked into Dish do!
Echostars case as mentioned above is aburd. They don't even debate the technical aspects of the patent infringment! Instead they rely on claims that Tivo didn't lose momey as a result of their infringment, and that they will " also continue to work on modifications to our new DVRs, and to our DVRs in the field, intended to avoid future infringement".
If Tivo lost business due to Echostars infringement on their patent, Tivo has a case.
And regardless of who ultimately wins, I don't lose, as I am not so dependent upon TV that I need Tivo or Echostar!
And if echostar ultimately loses, complain to Echostar for their misdeed!
But I bought an echostar DVR...Tivo is SOOO mean! Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
But you poor little victim, your purely selfish emotional whine has become very old.
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|"Patents have been thrown out...wow! Well, thus far this one hasn't, and TIVO patented a functional application of a concept - especially as you geniuses have failed to mention ONE brand of 'dual tuner' VCR that you geniuses claim could time s***!"
Go-Video - Dual-Deck VCR, (USA only).
Time-s***ing isn't new, I've been doing it since early 1990's with two VCR's.
All TiVo did was remove the exercise, (puting down one remote to pick up the other).
I couldn't care less about TiVo, EchoStar, etc, etc - since we have none of that stuff here in Oz.
We do have Dual-Tuner (P/D)VRs imported from China - just thank (insert deity) we just don't have TiVo here to screw them out of business.
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|Imagination? You can't time s*** with it!
It offered not more ability to do that then a TV and a VCR with a tv/vcr source button!
Just a TV and ONE vcr allowed you to watch one program while taping another! All you did was add a splitter!
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|TiVo had the rights, Earthstar coppied it without the rights to it. Simple case, they thought TiVo would run out of money, they didn't and won the case.
Earthstart was wrong, plain and simple and now they must pay. I suspect they will come out with a new version and will have to give it free to all current DVR owners.
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|Do you even know what the patents cover?
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|Except there is more than one patent involved, and if it was a case of challenging the patents themselves, Echostar would have done that long ago.
This case is because Echostar had prior access to the designs from Tivo and tried to get around paying a license to them while building their DVRs on the same designs. If Echostar had simply perfected thier own early designs there would have been now case for Tivo to present, but the DISH DVRs would also have remained a generation behind the Tivo units.
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|