"Spyware VS. CounterSpy
CounterSpy Now Decloaks The Sony Rootkit

CounterSpy has just released a new definition set of CounterSpy that decloaks the Sony rootkit. By decloaking we mean that we get rid of the driver called (Aries.sys) that gives the Sony DRM (Digital Rights Management) its hidden rootkit capabilities. This is the same thing that Windows Antispyware is doing. However, it does not remove the Sony DRM files themselves, as doing so can wreak havoc on your computer by causing the CD drive to become inoperable. Sophos and other antispyware developers also just do a decloaking.

We are unaware of any utility that actually removes these DRM files (not just the decloaking thing) due to the danger mentioned above. Microsoft has announced that their Malicious Software Removal tool will remove it, but we suspect it will also just decloak it as well. Sony provides no way for their DRM files to be removed through Add/Remove programs. Instead, one has to go to their website to do a full uninstall or go through a cumbersome manual uninstall. CounterSpy 1.0: Definition 256 is the set that decloaks the rootkit. "

To suggest that SONY shares the concerns of their customers is a load of poo poo. SONY was well aware of the security flaw posed by their rootkit well before they were caught. Where was their "concern" then? Clearly, the only thing they were "concerned" about was getting caught.

If SONY really was "committed to making this situation right", the CD's would be off the shelves and this article would not exist. Their committment only extends to those who happen to be aware of this news and do something about it. They will no doubt do nothing about the number of people who remain unaware their rootkits.

SONY's removal tool is just as bad as the rootkit.

"Going forward, we will continue to identify new ways to meet demands for flexibility in how you and other consumers listen to music. "
^ that's a joke.... hey I got an idea... how bout just get back to making CD's and shut down any little "SONY thinktanks" you have in the works? We only need one thing from you and one thing only... a CD with nothing more on it than the music we bought.

Important to clarify that also Arista is doing the same. The last CD from Santana, "All That I Am" is also causing similar problems. Is there any action/request on this subject also?

A little FYI for everyone here.

CDs are cheaper to make than Cassette Tapes, yet they cost the consumer twice as much to purchase.

Anyone care to tell me why?

Umm...money spent on ensuring they all have rootkits on them? (kidding)

To pay for all the lawyers suing grandma?

Piracy will always happen.. the second i purchase my cd's, i take them home and rip them to MP3, illegal in its self, but i do not care. Big corporations claim to have lost millions due to piracy, but its money they never would have gotten in the 1st place. I wonder how many millions they would have spent in developing DRM and other copy protections, if they didnt spend all that money on them, thats millions they could have saved and kept their wallets nice and fat.

I also do not see the point in copy protections, they come out commercially and that day someone cracks it. Why not save the money in developing it and pay the artist more, or use the money to actually bring out a half decent band. Here in aus its $30 for a CD, its not cheap, so to buy someones album only to get 2 good songs is a waste of money. "get Itunes" you say? Well last time i checked it wasnt available in australia, hence making all of the IPods here irrelevant. Since you cant buy mp3s here, why are they bringing out MP3 players, also as i said above, its illegal to buy a CD and rip it.. When you buy a CD/DVD you only pay for the privelage of watching/listening to it.

So in short i am saying, Get rid of the copy protections they are useless, start paying bands more, and more people wills start buying CDs..

I am ready for all the flames now!

If it wasn't for people like you, there wouldn't be any need for copy protection....

I rip the cds for personal use, not so i can share them, cds scratch very easily, and i am not going to pay $30 again whan my cd dies.

That is understandable, I do the same.

Making an archive copy of legally purchased media content is not illegal. It is actually completely legit, as long as you don't start sharing them out...as you said that you do not.

Once again, making ARCHIVE copies of legally purchased media content is NOT ILLEGAL.

Actually, it's not illegal ;-) As I posted above, making an archive copy for personal use is perfectly legal, even by the RIAA's standards.

Quote Sony BMG:

"November 18, 2005

To Our Valued Customers:

You may be aware of the recent attention given to the XCP content protection software included on some SONY BMG CDs. This software was provided to us by a third-party vendor, First4Internet. Discussion has centered on security concerns raised about the use of CDs containing this software.

We share the concerns of consumers regarding these discs, and we are instituting a mail-in program that will allow consumers to exchange any CD with XCP software for the same CD without copy protection and receive MP3 files of the same title. We also have asked our retail partners to remove all unsold CDs with XCP software from their store shelves and inventory. Please click here for exchange program details.

We deeply regret any inconvenience this may cause our customers and we are committed to making this situation right. It is important to note that the issues regarding these discs exist only when they are played on computers, not on conventional, non-computer-based CD and/or DVD players.

Our new initiatives follow the measures we have already taken, including the voluntary suspension of the manufacture of CDs with the XCP software. In addition, to address security concerns, we provided to major software and anti-virus companies a software update, which also may be downloaded at http://cp.sonybmg.com/xcp/english/updates.html. We will shortly provide a simplified and secure procedure to uninstall the XCP software if it resides on your computer.

Ultimately, the experience of consumers is our primary concern, and our goal is to help bring our artists' music to as broad an audience as possible. Going forward, we will continue to identify new ways to meet demands for flexibility in how you and other consumers listen to music. "

Created by a third party company? was Sony BMG Fully aware of the problems this software caused? (I'm really asking, have any of you heard of this?)

They knew, here is a tid bit i posted. That press statement is a big fat hot air ballon.

Heres an interesting tid bit thats just hitting the press.
Sony and First 4 Internet were informed of the security vulnerability 28 days before Mark from sysinternals first posted his blog. F-Secure notified them about it, but agreed to keep it quiet.

Here is the article.

http://it.slashdot.org/a...29/1823212&from=rss

bad link...

just go to slashdot and look around the article is there.

I got a senario for you guys.

Before I was a PC Tech. I had to do Odd jobs while I was in college and what not. So before now I was a Mechanic. now I'm gonna tell you alittle story.

A customer came in with a tow truck pulling his 2001 BMW 7 Series. The anti-theft system screwed up and shut down his vehicle. Well, in that process the anti-theft fried his ECU (the cars computer) Now this was an OEM Anti-theft system straight from the factory, SINCE the car was out of warranty, BMW would not cover the damages. So the Customer was stuck paying $2,000 to replace the ECU that BMW's Anti-theft fried.

Hmm Sounds fammilliar eh? I think customers are having the same problem with Sony's DRM/Rootkit (aka..their anti-theft system) atleast sony made an attempt to fix the problem!

This is the exact same situation, just different situations. If Auto Theft wasn't an issue, there would be no need for an Anti-Theft system in that BMW. If Music Piracy/theft wasn't an issue, then there wouldn't have been any need for the DRM/rootkit.

So even though that BMW customer wasn't stealing cars, he payed the price for those people who do steal cars, HENCE, the Good customers of the music idustry are now paying the price of those who steal the music, Again...you all need to see the COMPLETE picture.

BUT Wait! *waaa...CD Prices are too high!!* Then don't buy the CD. No one says you HAVE to own music, listen to the radio if you don't wanna pay "high" prices for CDs, don't steal the music...

If I see a Ferrari I like, I'm not going to steal it because I can't afford, I'm just going to sit there and pout.

Now, before you critize me, I agree that Sony's take on this was wrong. But I'm just looking at the whole picture. I am NOT trying to justify what sony did.

see the problem with the theft is the people who BUY the cds generally dont upload it so everyone else can have it...the theft comes from the cds before they are even released...sony should have put the protection on all cds that were given away as promos, radio, djs etcetc not the people who actually BUY the cd...its basically saying you are guilty with no trial

No its not the same thing. The Music CDs didnt come with your computer. THE SONY DRM IS NOT PART OF MY SYSTEM. If sony planted it there its their fault for being incompentent. They got pay up for their mistakes.

Actually, its not stealing its copying. If you buy all the parts to copy a ferrari, dont you think you have the right to build it?

we're not talking about the people "copying" the music, the ones who are illegally downloading it, and those who make copies and share them for the sole purpose of downloading them.

If you download music from a P2P server, and do not own the CD, or the licence for that MP3, you STOLE it...same as if I were to walk on a ferrarrri lot and steal a ferrari, if I "purchase" all the parts to build one, then so be it, but If I steal all the parts to build one, that's different story. Just like people "stealing" all the mp3's to compile a CD.

I didnt steal the CD, nor did I still the song. I copied the bits of information from one computer to another.

I am saying this, because you cannot compare stealing a car to sharing music.

Furthermore, I didnt agree to any license agreement when I aquired a song through the net. So why am I breaking the law again. Its information which I am aquiring. We can go in circles with this seriously.

> This is the exact same situation...

Anti-theft system in MY car is installed with MY knowledge to protect ME from theft of MY property.

Sony installs IT'S malware on MY computer without MY knowledge to protect IT'S own bottom line and you call it "the exact same situation"?

exactly

I understand your thoughts, but it wasn't comparing apples to apples. Good premise, however. As several have already mentioned, Sony is installing the rootkit (which is the TRUE problem, not DRM) without anyone's knowledge nor permission. The EULA page pops up and asks you if you agree with it or not. If you press No, it still installs the rookit *anyway*. If you want to see this first-hand, go get the Van Zant CD and try it out. Otherwise, I would happily send you screenshots of what it did to my friend's Win2k PC.

"Furthermore, I didnt agree to any license agreement when I aquired a song through the net."

The song is being shared illegally then--agree or no, it is stealing from a theif, even if the person sharing it bought it, giving it away is stealing. If you steal a car that a theif acquired illegally, is it not stealing?

"...I [only] copied the bits of information from one computer to another."

Not according to the Feds, budd. You stole the song, encrypted or no.

Again you are not stealing anything from anyone. You are making carbon copies of their information.

Sorry to be a smart a** but ppl need to understand exactly what is going on. When you steal something you take something from a person and that person no longer has it, also that person did not want you to take it.

STEALING IS THE INCORRECT WORD TO USE.So is theft. Come up with a better word, because neither falls into this situation.

Btw. Someone show me were in the law it states that I cannot copy bits of data from a network when the owner of the machine that data resides allows me to. The law prohibits redistribution of copyrighted material, however it does not punish those who aquire said material.

When has the goverment ever put someone who bought a bootleg DVD in jail?

Actually has the goverment even tried to prosecute someone who has dloaded music from the net?

I tried telling everybody years ago that Sony's bad. I can't think of a better time to say "I told you so!"

With the RIAA suing 78 year old grand parents for the rest of there lives worth of Social Security checks cause there 7yo grand kid illegally downloaded a Sony BMG song, why shouldn’t us users expect say a million or so in compensation each if all data on our computers is destroyed due to being illegally infected by the Sony BMG root kit? It’s only fair the Music industry is hurt as bad financially as the families they are destroying for downloading music off of the internet.

After all why is the record industry entitled to 600,000 Dollars if you illegally download a 99 Cent song, but its okay to destroy 4 years work on some collage kids computer?

Also why aren’t the stores that still have the “recalled” merchandise on there shelves also being sued?

What goes around comes around I always say!!!

I can answer the recall question for you.

When a retail-level recall is initiated, it is the responsibility of the company issuing the recall to make sure the product is being returned to them, not the company that stocks and sells the product. Based on what I know about recalls (I work for a pharmaceutical company...recalls are closely watched by the FDA, so we have procedures in place to keep ourselves clean of violations), if the company in question is serious about its recall, they will first issue the notice of recall, then supply the retailer with replacement product so that the company will not only be obligated to replace said product, but also that it won't affect their bottom-line because the product is never missing from the shelves, just a quick swap. My opinion on this (I'm no expert and I don't know how Sony's handled this) is that Sony either made it a voluntary recall (basically told retailers to send the product back on their own accord and their stocks would be replinished accordingly), or only "press-released" a recall when in fact they did nothing. I'm gonna go with the former.

So, can we sue Wal-Mart because they left the affected CDs on the shelf? No. In the end, its Sony's responsibility to get the product out of circulation as quickly as possible, and if they make it easy for a retailer to do it without hurting their revenues, then it would be a flawless, quick fix.

Heres an interesting tid bit thats just hitting the press.
Sony and First 4 Internet were informed of the security vulnerability 28 days before Mark from sysinternals first posted his blog. F-Secure notified them about it, but agreed to keep it quiet.

Here is the article.

http://it.slashdot.org/a...29/1823212&from=rss

Sony hired an outside company to create the DRM.

That company as the 'expert' contractor is fully responsible and should be sued by Sony for any money's that Sony expends on defending itself.

Sony itself is also fully responsible for not implementing checks, or fully understanding what they were getting from the contracted company and because they distributed the illegal software they should be sued by those affected.

Why is nobody talking about that idiot company that made this stuff for Sony ?????????????

1 line says it all.

SONYBGM VP: "Most ppl dont know what a rootkit is, why should they care about it?"

They knew exactly what those CDs had, and we have yet seen no action on Sonys part against First 4 internet.

Oh dont worry about F4I , the lawsuits over GPL license breaches are surely comming.

nobody cares about that company, just those that use it. Those that use it may end up caring about that company. Similarly like i don't care who makes guns, just care about those that use them illegally.

How much money do you reckon the contractor has?

How much money do you reckon Sony has?

Any lawyer will tell you: You can't squeeze blood from a turnip. Always sue the party with the deepest pockets, no matter how small its role was.

"Now, it is also the cunsumer who pushed sony to do what they did"

Baloney. The consumers were the people actually paying them money.

Yeah, and then ripping the music off of the CD and sharing it to 1 Million other people....

Good attitude dude you get screwed over by Sony and thats acceptable to you? WOW

Boycott Sony ALL of their products. Make them think twice before they screw the people that made there company... the customer.

Some people at Sony need to lose their jobs over this, lose sales, pay law suites and try to come up with a story to explain this to their investors. BAD SONY!

Like I said in another post. I am willing to bet a large amount of money that no more than 20% of the US population is active in the share to a million ppl community. Heck not even 10 percent.

Sony and for that matter MPAA and RIAA werent going ape#@#$ with ppl sharing music through tapes or movies through VHS.

So lets say that 20% of the US population is actively sharing music. You are going to hold 10 ppl accountable for the actions of 2?

I am on everyones side as far as Sony's DRM/Rootkit deal.

I agree with what sony did was WRONG and they did break the law, and them doing so, they produced alot of harm to the consumer.

Now, it is also the cunsumer who pushed sony to do what they did, so the question is, Who should really be blamed for this? Sony? or the people who are pirating music, movies, and software, and creating software to help people break the law.

In short hand, sony broke the law, and so did the consumer, we broke the law first, sony was trying to prevent theft, in which they screwed up.

So if we, The consumer, didn't break the law in the first place, this would never have happend. So in my eyes, we, the consumer, are to blame for sony's actions, not sony itself.

So I do belive that we need to stop with this whole anti-sony ordeal and get over it! Just think, if sony wanted to, they could come to each, and everyone of your homes and have you arrested, and I'm sure there aren't many of you that wouldn't be arrested....

...if we, The consumer, didn't break the law in the first place, this would never have happend. So in my eyes, we, the consumer, are to blame for sony's actions, not sony itself.

I didn't break any law. Why should my computer be infected for your offense? Spitzer is a hero.

so acording to your thinking everyone should pay the price for the mistakes of 1 person? So should the entire Police force be punished when 1 officer over steps his bounds and abuses his power? Should the goverment issue arrest warrants for an entire nieghborhood because 1 person was killed there and they cant find who did it?

This is a flawed view of how things should be handled. In this country ppl are innocent until proven guilty, and citizens have a right to privacy as well as a right against false prosecution.

Sony basically says that eventhough I legally purchased this CD I am considered a pirate therefore they can treat me as one.

How about this, lets extend Sonys thinking to traffic violations. Too many ppl speed on the highway, so lets make a chip that controls the maximum velocity a vehicle can move, therefore we punish all law abiding citizens for the mistakes of a few ppl on a hurry.

you all aren't understanding my point. All I am saying is this...everyone makes mistakes and breaks the law at one point and time. The consumers are pretty much paying the price of stealing.

What sony has done is wrong.
What the consumer has done is wrong.

Those are my points...

like I replied to the last.

Now as far as what else you said....

"I didn't break any law. Why should my computer be infected for your offense?"

I never said I committed the crime, I am not placing blame on ONE single person, I am placing blame on consumers as a group.

All my point was, If the consumer never overstepped their boundries, this would NEVER have happend.

End of story.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

The point of that post is to make everyone realise one very important thing.

If the consumer never betrayed Sony's trust.

The DRM/Rootkit would never have been created

So, THIS would NEVER have happend...

In an ideal world, you are correct. However, the resposibility falls solely on Sony BMG's shoulders. They had the choice, and they chose to stick it to consumers. It blew up in their faces, time to pay the piper.

Again, it was SOLELY Sony BMG's decision, solely their fault for all the havoc, and therefore solely THEIR responsibility to appropriately resolve the issues that THEY caused. End of story. Debate all you want, but that's all there is to it.

It's like saying that it's gun-maker's fault for murders committed using their products. That doesn't make any sense. If I killed you with a BIC pen, would you go after BIC? Get real, let's stop playing 'tiddley-winks' over the stupid crap and get on with life.

Actually, you can't honestly say that the DRM/rootkit would NEVER have been created if it wasn't for consumers. You just can't, unless you have a time machine (and I'm not talking about the 'magical white dust' in your bong.

I admit, I do not care for your opinion 1 bit because it lacks logic entirely. However, your opinion has every right to be heard as does everyone else's.

That being said, you are incorrect in your analysis. Sony directly targeted those that have legally purchased their media and have (on average) legally used the software. This will not affect most of those who download via P2P because, by nature, most P2P users are somewhat savvy and can rip the DRM off of the songs and create MP3/Ogg/etc files that won't pose ANY threat to downloaders.

However, don't worry...you're still *special*.

Wow, can you flame anymore? you're right, it's an opinion, relax. Wether or not there is any truth to it or not, it doesn't matter, if you don't like my opinion, then ignore it, read over it. no reason to comment on how you think I'm stupid or however you think of me

it's
an
opinion

relax.

And again, you are incorrect. You are simply making the assumption that illegal file sharing has *SOLELY* contributed to the creation of DRM and the rootkit. You simply cannot make this assertion without any amount of certainty. Unless, of course, you are the head honcho of Sony BMG that made the call... ;-) Even then I would be willing to bet it would be a lie simply designed to cover up alterior motives.

That was stated as a fact ;-)

::Thought we both agree on 1 basic principle: just get over it :-) ::

Sorry to have offended you, but I never called you stupid. Quite frankly, I would have NO clue on how intelligent you are simply by reading a bit of text on the 'net. I simply stated that your opinion lacked logic. Logic is the pattern of knowledge that can be ascertained from a given statement/set of points. That may not be Webster's definition, but I think it's probably pretty close. Following your logic, it just seems unfathomable to come to any rational conclusion. Aren't you sick of hearing how obese kids want to blame McDonald's and Wendy's? Where is the personal accountability? So what if consumers/P2P users want to deny illegal sharing of files...big deal. Shouldn't a corporation as power as Sony BMG be 'bigger' than that? Shouldn't *WE* be bigger than that?

The problem is that you are saying 1 bad apple = an orchard full of bad apples.

THE CONSUMER HAS DONE NOTHING WRONG.
however a few consumers have done some shady things.

Get over it, are you nuts? BOYCOTT SONY! They have to pay for this one.

WOW I can't believe you would say something so stupid. BOYCOTT SONY!

Everyone is entitled to there opinion, even when it's wrong!

Dude do you work for Sony?

oh, I agree! all I was stating that.

The people who pirated the music pushed sony to this.

Do you honestly think, if piracy wasn't a problem, would this have happend??

Sony stated that the reason this was created was because of Piracy...

"THE CONSUMER HAS DONE NOTHING WRONG"

Piracy is a crime...

if it was only 1 person pirating then I'm sure they could care less, but we're talking about 40% of the WORLD pirating music...

Sure, but like i said. Should the goverment hold all drivers accountable for a few speeders? Should the goverment give all drivers a ticket because they werent able to catch a few speeders? because they werent able to catch a murderer?

Its the same thing. You cant hold a group of ppl liable for the actions of a small portion.

and were did you come up with this gross number? I asure you that in the US is not even close to 10% of the population.. 1 in 10.

Europe is the worst for piracy,I forgot which european nation was dubbed a "Piracy Haven" or whatnot..

no they shouldn't, and I said what sony did was WRONG.

I'll save you time, India leads the world in bootlegging and piracy. Amersterdam follows closely behind, while Japan is up next. A few other countries toll up, then US tops the charts at number 8.

Good conjecture. However implausible it may be, it is *possible* that DRM software and this rootkit may have been created in the absence of piracy. That is undeniable. Even at that, the audience Sony was attempting to target with this 'malware' were those participating in the illegal side. However, their methods, as they played out, hit largely (approximately 90%) of their legit audience and very little of the illegal users.

High-level view:
Sony = great company with great products
Sony BMG is not Sony
Sony BMG engaged in illegal practices in order to deal a direct blow to consumers, both illegal and legal.

Is Sony BMG any less liable for shoddy code designed by a 3rd party and placed onto their media? No. XCP needs to be brought more to light, and with GPL infringements, I'm sure they will.

I sub-contracted for a software development company that sold web-based solutions to large clients (Eli Lilly for one...). If I had developed code that affected users in this manner, then Eli Lilly would have sued those that contracted me. When Eli Lilly was done, my contracting agent would have sued me unless I had done it under the guise of a corporation or had it written into my contract that I couldn't be held liable. Either way...it still sucks for all parties involved, intentional or not.

I understand your position, and Sony's. It is easily possible and plausible that the rootkit and DRM were both created to reduce piracy in the world. However, just because my shotgun killed the fly sitting on top of grandma's head, and I just make her head disappear, was it really the *right* way to resolve the problem?

Besides, was the fly the only reason why I used the shotgun? Or did I just not like dear-old grandma? But that's more of a conspiracy-theorist question.

According to Sony; yes, the shotgun was the right tool for the job, and no, I had nothing against grandma.

Just the average consumer has done nothing wrong ;-)

> So if we, The consumer, didn't break the law in
> the first place, this would never have happend.
> So in my eyes, we, the consumer, are to blame
> for sony's actions, not sony itself.

Great game, can I play too?

If Sony didn't set ridiculously high prices for CDs people wouldn't have to make free copies.

Here is the next one for Sony:

If new models Mercedes releases every year (and Sony executives like so much) didn't cost an arm and a leg, Sony wouldn't have to charge so much for CDs.

Mercedes is to blame!

Two wrongs don't make it right. It's illegal to take revenge on the thieves; who broke into your house and stole the TV. You can beat up these suspects and go to jail next for battery.

SONY is in the same boat. Sue them...

YOU ARE DENSE...

and he's running for governor in new york next year...

$13.95 For a CD is ridiculously high? Cassette tapes used to cost more than that...

In Europe we pay more 20-25 Euro, that's $30 to you. Screw Sony, hope they die.

> $13.95 For a CD is ridiculously high?

Yes, considering manufacturing costs a few cents and artists get less then a dollar per CD from Sony BMG and other RIAA members.

> Cassette tapes used to cost more than that...

And that tells us what? That tape prices were even more ridiculously high?

OH! Ok...I see...

So if I went to a Ferrari Dealer, Saw a Ferrari Enzo I liked, but WOW $600,000!!!! I can't afford that! and I felt that it was overpriced, so it's ok if I just walked up to the key box, grabbed the keys and just drove off with it?

Your ethics are horrible...

"Mercedes is to blame!"

Hell, maybe Sony should just go out of business and "steal" the mercedes then!

Just like people who can't afford original Sony CDs make themselves copies, you are welcome to make yourself a copy of the Ferrari you can't afford.

Terminologically, legally, or morally, stealing the original and making a copy of it is not the same thing.

Following his logic, it's definitely no reason to steal the car..regardless of the cost.

Truthfully, there is no excuse for illegal downloading/sharing of media content. Just as there is no excuse for the stealing of property that belongs to others. There does need to be some peaceable alternative to this to reduce the cost of media to end users. It's far better to simply boycott over-priced media, than to go out and steal it.

rijp, you need to get in touch with reality. Sony hid files on peoples computers without permission, they issued a fix that does NOT work. They said only 23 albums were affected (later changed the number after caught lying). Showed no remorse over infecting peoples computers. Many people still don't know if their computers are infected. They created another avenue for hackers to infect computers. And they still have made no serious effort to insure all these recording have been recalled and destroyed. When toy makers find a problem they have a widespread announcement of the problem and recall all over the media. They have broken the law many times. It is about time they paid for it. Not just for the damage done, but to make sure they don't repeat the offenses. These companies are not really losing millions of dollars. This is only company (industry) generated statisics. If they were really losing anywhere near this kind of money they would stop making CDs and go into another line. $20 is an enormous amount over the price of the plastic for a CD. They could also lessen the millions they pay the artists. Do you really think Britany's singing ability is worth all they have paid her?

Double post?

And we noticed that none of the tv networks or cable news channels have even mentioned the Sony story. A serious recall would include press releases and an advertising campaign on tv. They're in no hurry to get rid of these CDs...

rijp, you need to get in touch with reality. Sony hid files on peoples computers without permission, they issued a fix that does NOT work. They said only 23 albums were affected (later changed the number after caught lying). Showed no remorse over infecting peoples computers. Many people still don't know if their computers are infected. They created another avenue for hackers to infect computers. And they still have made no serious effort to insure all these recording have been recalled and destroyed. When toy makers find a problem they have a widespread announcement of the problem and recall all over the media. They have broken the law many times. It is about time they paid for it. Not just for the damage done, but to make sure they don't repeat the offenses. These companies are not really losing millions of dollars. This is only company (industry) generated statisics. If they were really losing anywhere near this kind of money they would stop making CDs and go into another line. $20 is an enormous amount over the price of the plastic for a CD. They could also lessen the millions they pay the artists. Do you really think Britany's singing ability is worth all they have paid her?

Right here...I own my own business. We are an onsite computer repair company, and while it may not be physical theft, it's still theft. Customers call me all the time saying they didn't do anything but it's broke again. And here's the key...I have a choice. I can tell them to go take a hike, or I can offer to help them for free knowing full well I shouldn't. If I tell them to take a hike, he tells more people that and more learn of my 'evil' ways and soon I'm out of a lot of clients. If I decide to help for free, well I might waste some time that I could have spent doing something else...but if they are happy when I'm done then they spread the word, and now I have more clients.

It's simple business practices...something you obviously don't get. You are never going to get rid of theft or stupid people. But there are ways to limit them without alienating everyone else.

You say it's theft that causes the CD price to be so high...well, that's been debated for ever and day. Some would say the reason of theft is because they are so costly that you can't actually buy them, so you're left with stealing. And we all know that more than 80% of the profits don't go to who it should.

And what, we should let Sony skate on everything, just cause they made a mistake. Mistakes are necessary, and it sucks when they happen to you. But if you don't get enough incentive to not make the mistake twice...well, then happens again. You make them, learn why you made them and how you can not make them again, then you own up to whatever damage you made because of it. Opps! I mistakenly jabbed my pencil into your eye...I'm sorry, please don't arrest me! Yeah...right.

It's ideas like this that allow corporations to continue to piss on everyone and get away with it. I'm not saying we need to dismemeber Sony, but hell yeah lets get some money from them and make them think twice before they try something stupid again. And how long until the next company makes a mistake that does effect you...wouldn't you rather circumvent that by facing the issue early on instead of when it's at your front door?

Oh, and don't forget that VHS was a "pirate's heaven" back in the 80's. Funny thing was that VHS gave the movie industry the biggest boost in history.

Same thing with cassettes. Look out, they said, because people can copy tapes! Yep. The world crumbled.

It's crying wolf. I have no problem with them going after servers of stuff, but it's out-of-bounds when they penalize paying customers. It always will be. You sell the ownership of the product, not a license to listen to it. Licenses to listen = DRM, and that's why it doesn't sell.

Just a good example when things go over the top.

OK. Well, I can see everyone is blaming one division at Sony for making a mistake. I love how there is so much hate. Sony trying to protect its ASS-ets, decides to invoke a protection scheme, because people find ways to circumvent copy protection. In doing so, Sony makes a mistake, and the scheme turns out to be a virus, and it makes machines vulernable. Sony then comes out with an IMMEDIATE fix and solution for the problem, only its not 100%. now the whole world is jumping on the anti-Sony bandwagon.

And just what exactly is the problem here? How many of you complaining or laughing at Sony's apparent predicament, ACTUALLY are affected by this? I bet NONE of you people have anything done to your computer, but because its now a good old fashioned witch hunt, you decide you will join in and play the "shame on you sony" for making a mistake, and they wanted to keep people from stealing from them.

So by show of mouse clicks, how many of you actually own your business? Because I want to come over and take your merchandise and see how you like people just using your stuff for free, and see how far you would go to prevent piracy.

Walk a mile in Sony's shoes and actually pretend you have some common sense. Sony is at least trying to protect a copyright. They just went about it the wrong way. I bet other companies may adopt Sony's philosophy, they may not use a root kit, but they will try to come up with better ways to prevent piracy.

Why do you suppose we pay 15 and 20 dollars for a CD? How about why inflation goes up so much each year? I know why, its theft. Theft prevention costs as much if not more than the actual theft itself, but only if companies don't come up with better ways to stop it. So what's the problem? You don't think theft is a problem, or you think Sony should just ask everyone nicely to STOP pirating their stuff?

there isn't a 100% conversion rate. just because someone pirates a cd doesn't mean they'd buy it if they had no alternative.

we don't pay 15 to 20 dollars because of theft. we pay 15 to 20 dollars because the recording industry has determined that as a breaking point for purchases. i wouldn't pay 20-25 dollars for a cd ... i would pay 15 though.

you're making it sound like sony is out on the street with a cup in hand collecting dimes. which executive do you think is hurting financially because of piracy?

a little more testing and thought in to what they were doing would have prevented this. i'm not blaming sony for trying to protect its property ... i'm blaming it for creating an exploit waiting to happen. when a company haphazardly puts honest consumers at risk the deserve to get their balls put in a vice.

All your points don't matter at all. All that matters is that sony illegaly installs software on your machine without telling you. That's ILLEGAL, it's not a mistake. Sony didn't accidentaly put this software on its cd's and it didnt' accidentaly install it on your machine. It was DESIGNED to install on your machine without you knowing, and it was DESIGNED to hide from the user and they intentionally made it so you can't even remove it. Not even their own fix can remove it properly!

That's ILLEGAL and completely unacceptable for such a huge and "trusted" company to do to its customers. Just because they're trying to protect their assets doesn't mean they can break the law doing it. Can a police officer come into your house and look through all your stuff just because maybe you stole something somewhere? Can he do it while your sleeping without you knowing about it?

Wow, i mean wow.

Look, if they had trully taken immediate action instead of denial then maybe they would have some of my sympathy but they didnt.

What sony has done:

1. Installed Malicious software without a users consent.

2. Denied on all fronts that said software was a liability and that it phoned home

3. Released a removal tool, that requieres registration, and also has security holes in it.

4. The software installed contains OPEN SOURCE code, which means that the software is breaking the GPL on which that open source code was released.

5. Announced a recall, and 2 weeks after the announcement we still see these CDs in almost every major retailer. ( I went to a walmart, kmart and specs here where I live and as of last night they were still carrying the CDs)

6. Total and complete disregard for the consumer, and their privacy.(the now infamous phrase "Most ppl dont know what a rootkit is, so why should they care about it?"

7. Makes ppl sign an EULA that strips every single right a consumer would have under normal circumstances. Heres a little example, if you own these cds and go bankrupt you must destroy the CD because the EULA demands it.

Anyone who tries to defend sony is nothing more than another sheep who has grown complasant of being manhandled by corporations and allowing them to take your rights away.

NO ONE SHOULD STAND FOR THIS.. This is serious stuff, we are talking about your rights. Its your computer stand up and defend it.

The problem isn't protection of IP. The problem is that Sony was willing to compromise the integrity of a purchaser's computer without notification. In addition, the remedy left a user with a more vulnerable computer.

If you need an analogy, think back to the Pinto. They knew the car blew up. However, they didn't announce that the car blew up until it had become sufficiently well known that it was a rolling firebomb. Then and only then was there a half-ass fix. Thus, the reputation of the Pinto was forged.

The egregious part of what Sony did was to alter the state of someone else's product, and claim that no one would care.

If cd labels want to get high and mighty about DRM, then let them sell DRM'd tracks only. Until they stop selling on an open digital platform such as Audio CD, how can you sympathize?

You can't sell new tires to someone with pinhole leaks. Most likely they have to come back for service. Maybe they'll have a blowout. But either way, you cannot sell a "crippled" product to a consumer without clearly stating how it is less effective. Without any question, Sony did that, and by doing so, they violated consumer protection laws all over the world.

If you sold CD's as a business, I would not have any sympathy for you, either. Sony chose to assume that the customers who already paid $20 for their CD's were not to be trusted. The funny part about it is that anyone who is going to pirate their CD --WILL NOT BUY THE CD-- whatever the cost. rijp, I do see what you're trying to say, but no matter how you spin this, Sony screwed its paying customers.

Boycott Sony.
http://boycottsony.us

What you are missing is that by failing to make a 'simple' uninstaller, that was basically provided by Dr. Mark Russinovich @ SysInternals, Sony showed us that it really didn't want consumers to be rid of the XCP software entirely. Why would you not want to help loyal consumers get rid of software that could easily compromise their privacy as well as become a back door to virii? Granted it's a bit of a guess, but it would *appear* that all of it was intentional and that Sony wants to have more elusive methods to gather demographics and *other* information about consumers.

What's bad is Sony denied it at first then they lied about how many cd's had the rootkit then they lied about pulling them off the shelves. They knew exactly what they were doing they cloaked it in your computer so no one would discover it.
And don't think for a second Sony Corp had no knowledge of this, no division makes this kind of call on there own.

Boycott Sony ALL of it!

Well put.

If COSTCO sells blank CDs for about 50 cents each; where do they get 15-20 bucks? And you thought that only the big oil companies were gouging the customers...

So by show of mouse clicks, how many of you actually own your business? Because I want to come over and take your merchandise and see how you like people just using your stuff for free, and see how far you would go to prevent piracy.

Using that logic does that mean after your costumers leave the cash register do you make your costomers get in line for a cavity search/tracking device implantation(or do you own an alien costume and wait for them to be on a lonley country road) don't forget this software also called home.

Out of all the people who actualy bought the disks what percent actualy ripped them to their shared folder to share with the world not very many so why go to the extreme and punish everyone.

They made a mistake a very very big mistake but they knew what they were doing and should be punished very harshly.

Another way to look at it is if i wrote a rootkit and it messed up peoples computers and i got caught odds are i would see jail time plus fines and compensate people and companies and on top of that i would more than likely be banned from using computers for while. Will that happen to anyone at sony or the company who make the rootkit for them no it will not and don't say it was just sony bmg because for something like this i would love to hear sony the parent company explain why something this big did not need their aproval first.

Very well put indeed.

Excellent point. I have been emailing local, state, and federal representatives to argue against the RIAA's claims of loss based on this basic principle for YEARS.

RIAA assumes: 100% of people who participate in piracy would have purchased the FULL VOLUME of content had piracy not been a possibility. What I mean by full volume is that when the offender downloaded the latest 'Van Zant' hit, that same offender would have purchased the $16 CD if piracy had not been an option. They compare that total figure against the growth trend from 2001 throught 2005 against their projections to determine total loss. This is about as inaccurate as you could get.

I'm not exactly sure what they were trying to prove with a stunt like this. I was planning to buy a few CD's for the holidays, but now I'm somewhat nervous about what I throw on the old CDROM, who knows what virus Sony has now opened me up to.

Shame on you Sony, hope you lose your s*** for this.

good they deserve it. what they did was wrong on every level. hope that they will learn from this but most likly not. Im just glad i dont own anything sony. so 5 million cd's at about $15 a cd so thats about $75 million. i think thats reasonable. But thats nothing to a company like sony. Have to hit them where it hurts.

hmmm... I'm a musician, and a business owner, and I'm calling Sony out. Their 'ethics' are inexcusable, yet, this is nothing new to Sony and the like - it would seem to be business as usual for an abominable industry.

I just love the ads showcasing janitors cleaning up the recording studios and turning to the viewer to say that piracy is costing 'the working man' his job - it's an unethical fallacy presented by an unethical money machine that's been cashing it in for FAR too long.

Instead, that janitor (whose job will be there tomorrow rest-assured) should turn to the consumers (who are now ALL ASSumed to be guilty; nice way to treat your paying customers, eh?) and plea for them to stop piracy on the grounds that his boss's boss's boss's BOSS can't afford AC in his Mclaren F1 until his/her next pay check.

I make the music that you want (roll with me here =P) but who do you give your money too? Granted you have little choice because of the massive snow-ball that's been rolling down-hill, getting bigger, picking up speed for many years, but... your money goes to Sony (and the like).

In the end it's a two-way street, I make the music (providing the means for the corporate cash-cow to exist in the first place), and the "Sonys" of the world provide the massive distribution (which had become necessary because the musician's see such a small percentage of the profits).

But here's the catch, they've got twelve lanes of highway and the musicians get an un-paved bicycle path - it's horendously lopsided. So-much-so that you are seeing more and more successful indies out there. Because we're coming to find that by circumventing these corporate wh***s, we can actually make MORE money while at the same time making it much easier for you (financially) to listen to our music. Thanks to the internet, reliance on the wh***'s broad distribution channels is becoming less and less of an obstacle.

As a musician, piracy is touchy. If the wh***s were on the up-and-up, I'd say that it's absolutely wrong!! But they're not, and haven't been for decades, and by all acounts, there's no indication that they're changing they're ways.

By that same token, because we love you and you love us, PLEASE SUPPORT THE INDY MUSICIANS!!!

(dreadfully sry for this long post)