Am I missing something? What are laws for? The government is suppose to follow the law. The FCC rules prohibit the actions being done by the major telecom companies. Period. Its a law. That is the issue, not all the BS that you folks are going on about. If the law is not going to be followed then screw it no one follow laws and do away with jails, courts and judges since from what has been happening, they are worthless anyhow.

I find it amazing how many of the same people who are touting the NSA activities as secret are also explaining exactly what is going to be done with this information and how it is so well protected. Fact is people don't have a clue what is going on with their information, if it is properly protected, what it is being compared to or how many agencies are using it. We do know that a military operation (the NSA) is collecting data on American civilians and they are saying "trust me".

So if there is no chance of leaks or misuse of this data then how the hell is it that the whole world knows that this "top secret" program exists? Most likely the leaks about the program came from those inside the very NSA so many want to trust. Since we don't get reports on those hundreds of NSA employees activities or how often they screw up information handling we will likely never know. Whether intentional or not once the cat is out of the bag the damage is done.

We have just witnessed what happened with millions of military records being used at home by an employee who violated the law in taking those records home. Were there any checks and balances in place to prevent this from happening? Hell no. Any indictments? Hell No. And every one of those 201 files has information about veterans security clearances, assignments, military training facilities, personal information about families and so much more - not just about personal info, but strategic info.

There is no doubt the government will rationalize any program some wiz kid dreams up, but anyone who tells me there won't be more leaks, lost information, improper use of information or screw ups obviously hasn't grasped the significance of news headlines for past 20 years.

Can anyone here name one person or terrorist who was ever indicted or eliminated as a result of this massive data collection...or are you going to try to tell me that those prosecutions would be top secret too? I am willing to wager that there will be information leaked with damage to far more innocent civilians than you will ever see terrorists apprehended related to this database collection program.

This program is just another case of some overzealous government projects designed to sooth the paranoid. It imay look like the government is on top of things, but the fact is some terrorist nut will devise a plan and we will be attacked at some point. I'm betting when it happens the NSA will be on the phone *laughs

We do know that a military operation (the NSA)...

Um, the NSA is *not* part of the military.

They were created in 1951 when congress decided we needed a security agency outside of the military.

Previously, the AFSA (Armed Forces Security Agency) was basically a dumping grounds for anything the other serives wouldn't or couldn't do. Which wasn't much. It was basically useless.

The creation of NSA resulted from a December 10, 1951, memo sent by Walter Bedell Smith to James B. Lay, Executive Secretary of the National Security Council. The memo observed that "control over, and coordination of, the collection and processing of Communications Intelligence had proved ineffective" and recommended a survey of communications intelligence activities. The proposal was approved on December 13, 1951, and the study authorized on December 28, 1951. The report was completed by June 13, 1952. Generally known as the "Brownell Committee Report," after committee chairman Herbert Brownell, it surveyed the history of U.S. communications intelligence activities and suggested the need for a much greater degree of coordination and direction at the national level. As the change in the security agency's name indicated, the role of the NSA was to extend beyond the armed forces.

Taken from
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB23/

Helps to know what you're talking about. ;)

Unlike civilian agancies, most NSA/CSS employees, both civilian and military, are headquartered at Fort Meade, Maryland. Although, NSA does have a computer center on Fairfaxe drive, Arlington, VA as well as field operations in major US cities and throughout the world. The NSA is staffed by over 20,000 active duty military personnel worldwide. The NSA has over 11,000 linguists (many trained at the Defense Language Institute)...so they are listening to something. Just like any military organization there are many civilian employees. Between 1990 and 2001 the NSA elimated 30 percent of it's civilians.

Outsourcing is done through "Defense" contractors and the NSA budget is overseen by DOD. Some of this outsourcing is designed to allow the NSA to skirt the law by claiming the NSA holds no restricted data, while contractors store the information, sift through it and report. Check out the NSA "black bag" and TIA programs, which, amoung other things, skirts congressional oversight. It isn't just phone numbers, but incredible amounts of personal information that is being warehoused for those who are "protecting" our freedoms.

DoD Directive 5100.20, dated 23 Dec 1971, authorized and prescribed the authorities, functions, and responsibilities of NSA/CSS. The CSS was officially established by NSA in 1972 to promote full partnership between the NSA and the cryptologic elements of the Forces. Combining NSA and CSS, provided a more unified Department of Defense (DoD) cryptologic effort. The CSS comprises all U.S. military services – Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines, and Coast Guard. To further ensure joint operations, the Director of NSA is also the Chief of the CSS

It is true that the NSA grew out of the military mission of the AFSA and encompases SIGINT and COMSEC activities including all intelligence related cryptologic activities both military and nonmilitary. However, the NSA is ran by the military and answers to the Department of Defense. Outside civilian intelligence and law enforcement agencies are considered customers and have no operational control over the NSA.

Directors of the NSA are 3-star General grade military officers. There has NEVER been and, by law, there will not be a civillian designated as NSA Director.

All requests for "freedom of information act" and "privacy act" information fall under the perview of the Department of Defense and it's regulations.

I think you can find a lot of the above information on the NSA, other government and press websites.

If you have followed the ongoing senate hearings then you well know that concern has been expressed over General Hayden switching from a military role (as Director if NSA) answering to the Department of Defense,and; his becoming Director of the CIA, which is a civillian agency.

I agree... it helps to know what you are talking about!

And........ He is the architect of the program...... and he is willing to open more oversight to the ENtire 33 members of committe to help stop this feeling that they are violating rights......... Look untill there is someine who comes out and says HEY look they violated my rights no crime has been committed. Guys it is phone numbers. There are a lot of other forms of info out there that can be accessed and cause a much greater threat to privacy. What is it that you want? A complete discloser of secret programs? Look eventually everyone here will have to consider this happy medium.... Appropriate oversight to protect liberties AND the darn ability of the gov to perform top secret programs guess what... in SECRET!!!!!!

I guess you told us!!!! Wow ria0001 or are you OO7? Ha ha. People lighten up!! Cmon its going to be OK!!! I surely believe the gov will leak. I surely believe we will have more terrorist attacks. I surely believe there will be conspiracies....ETC Guys there will always also be Americans who will only let s*** go so far. Do you really believe we have crossed that threshhold? Now Im not saying to "trust" the Gov, Im saying this is not worth getting your panties in a crunch...Not yet anyways. Prosecuting usually works better when ther is a crime victim. Now I know also and all my lovely Neo -con friends out there will have to just simply accept this as fact,that sometimes the so called Conspiricy Theorist get it right. Do you truly believe the Gov has no reason to do what it is doing? Or is it just creeping you out what they can do?

Hey Pc tool whos watching the kids while the parents are out? If the FCC is worthless anyways like you said.... I mean I can see why so much power is as much a reason for concern. You know "in the hands of the wrong people" and all that. Let me restate I do not believe for one second that the entire NSA staff has it in for any one person and intends to use this info to ruin an individuals life and all that , but there is a possibility that there may be a few bad apples and abuse could occur.... again is Congress supposed to provide the oversight if the FCC is just an inadequate agency for broadcast complaints?

Who the hell do you call? How could it be misused and how could you be hurt? You could post your phone bill on every corner in your town and no one would even give a s***. Answer this with something other than the 4th amendment... how does this hurt you. You let the phone company use it to better serve you, why not let the govt do the same?

No one here could name a terrorist who was indicted or eliminated by this program... You know what? No one here is even certain that it exists.

This program is just another case of some overzealous government projects designed to sooth the paranoid. It imay look like the government is on top of things, but the fact is some terrorist nut will devise a plan and we will be attacked at some point. I'm betting when it happens the NSA will be on the phone *laughs

Yeah right, so why even bother trying to stop them... I'm glad everyone isn't as optimistic as you are.

Now Waterman the fourth is pretty important to some people......but agree that the sky is not falling ...yet!

I didn't mean to discount the 4th amendment... I want to know what damage I should expect based on his opinion... aside from the proposed invasion of privacy.

The damage done or not done is extremely unimportant to the point many of us are making. If we measured how correct actions were based upon damage done then we would have no doctors and we would have many more con-men.

Whether anyone gives a s*** isn't the point. I give a s*** about my information and ought to have some clue of what is being done with it. Someone obviously does give a s*** at the NSA.

We are not talking about investigations initiated based on even reasonable suspicion and this issue goes far beyond phone records. How 'bout your medical records, credit card and bank account records and more? There have been verified programs, discussed in congreesional hearings, that include issues related to the collection of a wide range of personal information and there are currently data mining companies under contract who specialize in providing this data. Why so many citizens can't connect the dots is incredible.

If you are confident that there is no harm that can be done with records of all your phone calls then feel free to post about 12 months of phone records and I bet it wouldn't take much of a rocket scientest to determine quite a bit of information about you.

In the mean time the real terrorist wannabees are probably using a pay phone on the other side of town.

I am glad everyone doesn't wear blinders.

I like that,maybe Im wrong in this case perhaps there doesnt need to be a victim for a crime to exist/taking place. Started thinking that if this is the new standard then oversight will slowly slide into oblivion. When do we protest, Ill bring Pizza!!!!

I didn't expect much of an answer about the actual harm, but thank you. I respect your fears and convictions on the subject, but I personally fear the threat that terrorism poses much, much more.

Twelve months of my phone records would create a profile that probably matches the majority of the rest of the people in this country... in most situations the information is basically useless.

If the terrorists use payphones there may still be a call pattern leaving something to be investigated.

FCC was never intended to be oversight for the NSA.

I do not see why them not commenting on it is an issue. They really don't have anything to do with it.

Besides, you're concerned about privacy...so you want to give the data to *more* people?

Hell, let's just let any old congresscritter in there...they're all trustworthy, right?

I give a s*** about my information and ought to have some clue of what is being done with it

To calm your fears:

This applies to everyone here.

If you are not associated with terorists, absolutely nothing is being done with it.

Just thought I'd put that out there.

No, I can't prove that, but neither can you prove it isn't, which pretty much makes it pointless, ya?

Ya'll want more oversight to protect your privacy and oddly all fail to account for the fact that more oversight = more people watching = greater possiblity of misuse or leak.

It's not blinders, it's logic. Right now, one Agency has the data, and they're not even looking at it (Computers are). Add oversight, security firms, a congresscritter or two, and the whole damn thing falls apart.

(BTW: Payphones are *very* easy to track and 90% of them do not allow payphone to payphone calling. Most terrorists are much more likely using the pay-as-you go phones and disposing them after each use.)

I think the government's record will speak to the harm issues. Certainly you have a different opinion than mine. I do believe that freedoms are generally not taken through brute force, but are eroded bit by bit and angle by angle.

Time will tell how this plays out, but there is plenty of history concerning the mishandling and improper use of information. In the abscense of oversite those in power will untimately manage actions that will require both laws and oversite. However, they are never unable to undo what has been done.

Point taken, more eyes and ears!!! Ive just never heard of such an undertaking (collection of 10's of millions of phone records) ever taking place although I see the genius in the program, anyways I like Hayden and I do to a much higher degree trust him. Hes already providing more wiggle room for abuse prevention so Im ok with it anyways.

Yeah dont believe the spy movies pay phones are very easily tracked!

Why dont they get rid of that type of phone (pay as you go) I wonder, seems like a massive loophole !

Public phones are easy to track, if only you can find one that works. I personally bugged the one on my block to keep abreast of what the neighbors were up to. I had to remove the NSA, the FBI, the CIA and my wife's bugs before I could get mine to operate because they were draining the signal.

Heh...

While it might be in *our* best interests, it is making the companies that offer them a boatload of money.

...and while we'd likely be safer as a nation, they aren't breaking laws by offering them. (And the US Gov isn't about to outlaw something that makes the companies that line their pockets so much money)

Oh! I get It!!! Oh and please wipe the phone with an antibacterial wipe.....before use!!!

Nevermind

Uhh..

Okay?

Hey Pc tool you sound like my boss.....Uhhhh?

Inside joke Haha. God bless America!!!!

Compare me to Bush again, and I'll have to hunt you down and slap you.

Don't ask how I'll find you. It's Top Secret. ;)

All the pro-terrorism '68s and no-global neo-commies should just shut up. Always trying to help their terrorist friends by attacking agencies like NSA,FBI,CIA and the Right Wing in order to have the population against needed controls to prevent terrorists actions. If agencies can't spy on people to seek and destroy the enemies, what's their purpose ? They are needed as a countermeasure to potential terrorists and criminals attacks of any kind.

The Left Wing is always against law enforcement unless the Left Wing itself is controlling everything and everyone, in that case '68 Left Wing gurus are always claiming that they are not spying or creating a regime, and so Fidel Castro and Cuba are good friends and North Korea it's a great country and China is a democracy.. yeah, sure ! Well, whoever listens to these Left Wing lies must be out of mind or really really naive.

1. Trolling? (if so go away)
2. High/drunk? (cool, sober up and come back)
3. Sarcastic (see trolling above...not that I won't still argue with you...I just can't stop myself)
4. Really feel that way? (OMG I don't know where to start - I won't bother...you think that you can dismiss the opinion of anyone you can fit into some premade ideological box, have a nice day)

Edit: I will go this far. I would bet lunch that I am further to the right than you are...but unlike you I have opened my mind to consider facts and ideas that threaten my deeply held beliefs...if they have merit, I may entertain them, but at least I consider them long enough to find out instead of throwing them out becuase I think the source was a "neo-commie" whatever that is. Loyalty to party and ideal is noble, but blind loyalty is stupid. Oh and the terrorists can only kill me once. The US government can oppress us for the rest of our lives if we let it (not saying we are there yet, but I don't like what I am seeing). Labels like you use are easy to type and very innaccurate. Left wing always... As for purpose, the highest purpose of all of the 3 branches of our government is to: Protect the constitution primarily. There is much less emphasis on the other roles (common defense, common good, etc...).

Yeah, sure. You Left-Wing people are always right and "open minded". You have the truth in your hands and you are the truth. Whoever doesn't join you and your ideas has to be an evil guy, right ?

And then Left-Wing people even dare to claim to be against racism and such... geez !

Actually, I agree than there are some folks that can be closed minded but it is certainly not limited to left wing. Be careful of attributing negative motives to those who disagree with you. The problem with your comments is that they don't make any sense. Who are these left wing people? In order to be "left-wing" do you just have to vote for one liberal? How about 2? maybe you have to be a union member. You can't even tell me who they are and yet you argue against them. What an easy target. You use a label and condemn than as closeminded but who the heck knows who you refer to.

You and I may even agree on several issues but who can tell when you don't stick to the issues, you instead attack an entire undefined social group. Can you even articulate what they believe since you can't tell me who the left-wing is? If you can't how do you know you don't agree with them? I can tell you what they believe but even that is almost useless because they all don't believe the same thing. The Left Wing as you call it is made up politically of a hodgepodge of special interest groups who have banded together out of similar ideologies. Many of these ideologies are not all that antithetical to your own but you will never know that if you don't open up your mind to accepting information. Of course they have their nuts, their socialsist, rabid environmentalists, ecoterrorists and such but you will find that the majority of their supporters are just Americans that hear some resonance with some of their own beliefs. Could be they were misled, sometimes they are, but it is arrogant to assume that they are closeminded without any evidence.

You just demonstrated by yourself of being a Left Wing guy. You tried to insult me with the usual pathetic "everything is relative" way and "you insult others" way of replying that Left Wing people started using heavily since the infamous '68 and managed to conquer the world over time, unfortunately for our society.

Here you are the only one attacking and insulting. I commented the article about the attacks that still Left Wing people started against Bush and the Right Wing because they didn't and can't accept how the population voted in democracy(=against the Left Wing).

Your attempt at trying to make me look racist and bad and evil it's just what it is, a pathetic attempt. As Left Wing people like you usually do, you think to be a little god and you don't accept others point of view. Your words show just voidness and general lack of sincerity, you seem programmed to just attack and destroy whoever is not part of your Left Wing gang. If this isn't racism, then what is it ?

I understand these posts should not be politically orientated? Whats with the left wing right wing stuff?

I can't wait until the headline reads "Phone Records of 26 Million Americans Stolen From NSA Employee Home Computer".

Would only be like 1TB->2TB of data. With HD capacities over 750GB it's totaly possible.

In 100 years it would be good to request that information under the Freedom of Information Act. It would be pretty cool to see a world map with lines indicating phone calls.

LOL

Right, that's gonna happen.

"the classified nature of the program prevents the agency from doing so"

How many times have I said this now?

'nuff said

so where are our wonderful checks and balances now?

Doing what they should be, there's nothing wrong with this.

They are being denied due to secrecy! I was chewed up and spit out when I voiced my opinion last time. I thought you agreed with the NSA program Silent Master!

to a degree i do, but there should be oversight.

sorry if i was overly harsh before.

i really argue both sides more to bring up the good and bad points of each argument, and argue strongly for things i do support. but my purpose on these forums is more to show both sides of the argument and let people make their own more educated decisions, and more frequently rant.

really i dont like the idea of being infringed on by the government, but i guess i can see how they justify it, whether they are right or not to do so. i cant stand to have any form of government without proper checks and balances and controls.

You're right. Go back to sleep America. The state has every right to lack transparency and accountability, especially under the auspice of protecting you from those durn terrists! You shouldn't question things like these; the Government is just making sure you're safe! And besides, what is there to worry about if you have nothing to hide?

Im totally in agreement to that!

I am reading all of this discussion. Good stuff really. Well thought out for the most part. Even the stuff I don't agree with is honest and heartfelt.

My point on this post is that we are not talking much about beta software. Yes I know that the news story is not really about that, but there have been several stories that have had discussion threads that have wandered far afield from technology.

I am not complaining really, I just wonder why.

Maybe it is that because we are of similar mind in perusing the betanews site we find discussions on any topic to be stimulating and rewarding because for the most part we are all fairly well informed and intelligent. I think that some discussion threads are worthy of continuing but maybe not here. I am not complaining or recommending that they be taken elsewhere, i am simply observing and wondering.

I maintain a vbulletin forum (AX!S - and don't bother searching, this thing is WAY off the radar - alot of security related stuff was discussed - notice I am not posting link, maybe sometime though, but not now) that does not get much use anymore and we had a specific forum for those with lots of opinions and fast fingers. It was called the RANT ROOM and topics of the day were discussed.

The only problem was we had one member that was so incensed that he could not convince others of his point that he began an abusive reign of virtual terror that climaxed with his making threats of physical violence on other posters and getting banned for life. Sad that it came to that. I am glad we dont have that here.

Do you remember when tech was young? I think the reason this topic is important is because tech is beginning to be used in a way that it was never used before. Who better to debate and discuss the implications than individuals who live breathe and eat tech. The nsa use of the telecomms to compilate the largest data base on record is pretty amazing.To do it for years without detection is certainly a testament to the gov and its covert abilities. Not even the techno hackers and "geeks" had any idea of what was happening. My point is that it does have aspects of technology and its use in this era.

Funny, that is what Robert Oppenheimer said, too.

"It's not necessary to investigate, because we (the ones being investigated) say so." What?

Ya know, come to think of it, that sounds like it has a lot more of a German accent to it. Say, about 1940.

Americans need to start READING the DECLARATION of INDEPENDENCE and THE US CONSTITUTION!!! STOP WATCHING American Idol and all the stupid retarded other things on TV.. When a Government has become opressive, it's time for that government to be changed drastically or better yet ABOLISHED!!! What you see going now is nothing more than prepping this country for Martial Law and the One World Government types to have their New World Order... It's time to stop them!!!! By any means neccessary!!!

The Tree of Liberty is often watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots... which will you be???

I don't think it is time for violence yet. We can still fix this if we elect the right people and start demanding accountability from Judges and elected Representatives, Senators, and Executives. Violating the oath of office to uphold the constitution is an impeachable offense. We should be seeing more of these.

I believe violence has been well over due. The current administration has flat out lied about the Iraq war, lied about protecting the southern border, and most certainly lied about the real events of 9/11. Lou Dobbs said it best on today's CNN. The President and Congress to us normal folk..`Go F**K Yourselves!!!" Were going to do whatever the hell we want and you can't stop us!!! The only fix would be to dissolve the government and replace it with a new one that's made of common people.. NOT career politicians... Voting currently doesn't work due to the electronic voting scams... Jospeh Stalin said it best, It matters not how many votes are cast... It's who counts those votes that matters...

Careful Patriot!!

One mans terrorist is another mans patriot>

Is that how it goes?

We are not in a constitutional crisis, not yet anyways. Remember that the records are only phone numbers. Only phone numbers used to track a pattern. Remember that the real issue if there is one would be who is in charge of oversight? I understand the fear of such a magmanimus operation that entails the compilation of so many phone records but remember there have not been any civil rights abuses yet! So please lets not get out and revolt yet!!! PEACE

Altenat8,
Its going to be allright!

Politics war and lies go hand in hand and always will. Listen I am a career soldier,and I want to tell you that I am sad that I have lost some of my friends because of "bad intelligence" isnt that the mother of all oxymorons? That lie you mention cost my cousins left eye, ear and arm last month. I have seen such horrible things. I have done what I was ordered to do because I believe in you guys at home. I believe you will make sure that if the Gov is wrong you will expose it. However if the gov is doing the right thing support them and let me do the job I have do.Violence is so terrible. above all people it is the soldier who desires peace for it is the soldier who must sacrifice greatest" I dont remember who said that but it made sense to me. You should always think before you act out of anger. I always think that it is you normal folk that Im risking it all for. I have way more faith in the people than the Gov. Lou Dobbs is a reporter who wants ratings! Dont base your ideals on media. What a waste. Think for yourself. Listen to others and feel what your people are saying. You can not trust the MEDIA.

"Lou Dobbs said it best on today's CNN."

Hey, wait! Are you saying CNN is encouraging violence?!? If they are, they need to have their own "Checks and balances" in place. If not--which is what I am guessing--then perhaps you are listening to too much commentary and not enough fact. What people say and what people do are to different things. Bush has said some thing that he has not yet done, but there are truckloads of things he has said that he has done.

If you are getting all of this information from CNN, that only backs up my personal thoughts regarding that "news" station.

DITTO>>>>>

I really don't believe that oversight is the answer as it would not stop what is happening today. It is very widespread and any that were appointed to oversight positions would be picked so that they would not interfere.

Remember that an oversight of criminal acts is not oversight at all, it is actually an Accomplice.

Who is to say that there have been no rights violations. Is there some bar that must be risen above before this kind of abuse of power and unconstitutional behavior becomes a rights violation (civil or otherwise)? There is none. We don't measure an acts constitutionality by the harm that is done or may be done, we measure it by the only supreme law of the land...the constitution. In that analysis these events and several others I fear are clearly a violation of our rights on a massive scale.

The problem is the PEOPLE are so dumbed down they have no idea what's going on.. The Media has purposely aided in dumbing down the population. It's not news anymore, it's one-sided propaganda that's on all the major networks. I support the military and I want them home protecting this nation, not some craphole country like Israel... Let that zionist state take of it's own battles.. Anger is a good thing.. and violence solves everything as the great talk show host Hal Turner says.. He should know, he's a ex-marine, and has made open remarks about killing congressmen, corrupt federal judges, and those that stand with the illegal aliens.. This nation is going down the road to becoming a communist nation which is a jewish creation. Study up on the Bosheviks of the Russian Revolution that killed tens of millions of white christians.. This nation needs to be returned to a constitutional republic.. As a soldier you took an oath to uphold and protect that concept. America's military needs to be pulled back in to America and do the job that it's suppose to do.. Protect this country from enemies, foreign and domestic.. Currently the enemies are domestic and occupy a 10 mile square known as Washington, D.C.

The threshold that must be passed before we can rise up has not been met. We still (many of us) have our guns and the last step before we are truly slaves to a tyrant is when they try to take all of those away. That, my friend, is when the time to take arms has come. The founders of this nation did not take arms lightly. They tried all legal means to get their greivances heard within the legal framework that they lived in. We must do the same.

It takes a very thick mantle indeed of legitimacy to cover acts of violence and even killing. A mantle deep enough to turn a guerilla into a patriot. The only one that has been found that strings together any coherent argument is based upon Natural Law and the rights of man (and we can argue this topic for a month) and a recognition that all peaceful means have been exhausted to escape subjugation and oppression.

Vent your spleen but leave the guns in the closet until they come for them...then it will be time to make them take it.

How terrible!

History is filled with sad stories of good men dying for unjust reasons. I am glad some people still regard history as a lesson to help guide us through an uncertain future.

Altern8 there is a time and a place for everything. I know what you are saying and believe me Im sad when Im away from my family friends and people. I know most Americans will forget Iraq in 10 years and no one I know will ever see Iraq. My commander n chief said I must fight here. If you dont like and the majority of my American people dont want it than raise hell and shake the capital steps till I come home!!! Just make sure its the right thing to do..... I actually take an oath to protect the Constitution . I have and always will defend it even when I finally cant wear the stripes anymore. Try not to be angry. I know it is difficult to trust sometimes but there are people still out there who believe for the most part that there is more good in the world than bad.....we can all make a difference for it is each and everyone of us who defines the soul of our great country, God bless you.

I don't blame any monolithic conspiracy or specific group like Jews. I think they have enough on their plate right now. As for them, they can take care of themselves if the world would just leave them alone to do it.

The real culprit is an elitist and socialistic worldview that is beginning to invade our society. It is almost unthinkable to have the situation we have now if it were not for an incremental s*** in the thinking that has driven us to this point. The idea that some kinds of thinking are not ok and must be suppressed (political correctness). The idea that an entire racial group is so inept that they need special treatment in order for them to have a fair chance. The idea that individualism and excellence are actually negative things which must be discouraged so as not to embarass the mediocrity that surrounds them. The most dangerous thinking is that there is no longer any absolute truth. There is no absolute right or wrong. Everything may now be defined as right or wrong by societal context or the mood of the day. There lies chaos. If we let those in power decide that right is wrong and truth is not then they will. What standing do we have to oppose them if there is no right or wrong? Why is it then wrong for the strong to rule over the weak?

It is this philosopy of relativism, elitism, and socialism that has pervaded our country. At its root is the belief that there are those that are more fit to rule than others (of course those that hold that view think that they know just the ones).

The ideas that drove our independence were learned in a hard school. Maybe we need to go back there before we remember what they knew.

No but usually a crime must be committed before we "hang em high"!!!!

No one knows and oversight will provide some measure of protection over violations. I truly appreciate the "accomplice" comment. I never saw it that way. Reap_r the only problem is that I believe in this extremely partisan atmosphere that we live in that if you had substantial BI-Partisan oversight the weaker party would just be an itching for a reason to "expose" any violations . Now if you are saying that ther lust for power supercedes there partisaness, well than oh my GOD we are ****ED. I just do not belive it has gone that far. Where are the victims? I am for all practical purposes a person who questions my government but wont condenm without proof.....Thats following the "sky is falling crowd" . Right now there is some clouds in the sky in my opinion but the skys not falling because the gov is searching phone records to try and track terrorists.

This country was founded as a result of tyranny of peoples in another country. HOWEVER, America became a nation BEFORE even considering taking any force. They also did not attack the Royal Family, nor did they threaten King George III's life. You are going about this all wrong. We should NEVER use force against our leaders--it is not our place.

Warning: The following is off-topic and represents a worst-case scenario. I am not encouraging, but rather discouraging, any "revolt" against America. If you are unable to read things objectively, please do not continue to read my next statements.

If it gets to that point, we must first break away from the United States completely. Then we must become independant. If--and this is a HUGE if--USA Politics threaten our lives or take military action against us at that point (which I am VERY FAR from implying will EVER happen), then there might be war.

I am giving this extreme outlandish scenario, because this is how America was started: NOT by warring against Great Britian, but by breaking away and forming our own leaders. Get it together, man! You are openly encouraging violence against Government officials, and even under the original US Constitution, that could be considered "unlawful", using the "nicest" terminology I can use.

no but the fact that the nsa is not accountalbe for anything is crap, and pretty sad IMO. others may think different, but i think the fcc should have authority to control things like this.

yeah but how is the military protecting my intrests and freedom in iraq? its protecting the iraqis freedoms, not mine.

As much as I want accountability, I think that the FCC is useless. Who gave them the right to control what is broadcast? These are the same folks that want to tell me that I can't put certain things on the air (or soon even on your blog) when it is too close to an election. Probably half of the federal regulatory agencies could just disappear and we would be better off for it. Do we really need someone to tell us which words are ok?

You need to talk to my Boss Silent master, His name is Bush. Aside from going AWOL what can I do. The power of protest is at home, with you young lions. I am trying not to get blowed up my friend. I am told killing "terrorists" is a good thing. For who I dont know at this point because the word terrorist can obviously mean anyone at this juncture!~!!

The never ending question, how much Government!!! In the end though remember it is us the populus that are the last "check and balance" No matter what Gov officials are sitting in office. The people must demand accountability if they want it, but again we must temper this trasparency we want out of the Gov especially if the programs we are refering to are COVERT guys!!!

Have folks here not seen the documents released to the internet by the former AT&T employee? Phone call records taken without probable cause and court approval are bad enough. It appears that they are sniffing ALL internet traffic as well. Surprise, surprise ... Verizon and others didn't need to provide access ... all their traffic is available at major AT&T sites (peering). This behavior is blatantly criminal and how is it defended? Well, they don't have to defend it. It's not happening and if it was it couldn't be litigated because it's a matter of natioanl security.

So the FCC says that it cant investigate claims of privacy violation because investigating would violate the privacy and classification of certain documents.

WTF!?? Hello?

Is anyone else sick and tired of the government hiding behind "govenment privacy" laws when they have shown ABSOLUTELY NO REGARD for peoples personal privacy.

That would be a yes.

The next question is: What do we do?

I believe in the system. We should vote, we should correspond with our elected leaders. We should share our concerns with others and not ignore this. We should demand accountability from those we elect to lead us. If we have to run ourselves we should do it. Heck, I would run myself if I was not such a troll.

We are not powerless when we act in unison, but act we must. We cannot afford to let someone else fix this for us.

I completely agree. I tried to get as many people as possible to vote. I encourage others to do the same. If we stand up together they cannot ignore us.

problem is we have to put up with this kind of injustice until then, where as just protests and such get mor imediate results.

raising your voices in protest at the grass root level is the only way. Vote? Vote in whom to power? Who is providing an alternate solution?
Take a lesson from the immigrants, if you put the laptop down, stop playing games, and organize and march the lawmakers get real jittery. I mean who can argue with results.

Now what is it where marching for? Anger becuase the Gov secretly compiled phone numbers for a secret program?
Or do you march because you feel there are no checks now that the FCC has said we hear no evil,speak no evil, see no evil?
If you think this will be the first time or the last time well thats up to the people becuase if we just sit here talking they will keep on pushing the envelope. If we clammer they will stop or at least slow down out of fear of reprecussions.
Again though what is the crime that has been committed or are we saying we can never know because of the status quo?

"Massachusetts Democratic Representative Edward Markey..."

Stopped reading right there. Not worth getting into...

EDIT: As this statement has made my intentions so unclear on this issue, please read my comment directly below...

"Chairman Kevin Martin, a Republican, said that the FCC..."

Well then by your post, that makes sense that the republican chair of the FCC would decline to look into a republican administrations policy that may have actually been criminal, not because of what they were doing, but because the phone companies said they would not violate your privacy in such a way.

What if they wanted to start monitoring credit transactions and then all the sudden you bought some stuff and the NSA came knocking at your door with your kids at home wondering why you had some "suspicious" credit usage.

Again, I go back to Gonzalez saying that tapping reporters phone-lines after leaks isn't out of the question and that civil liberties don't mean squat when it comes to national security. If that isn't a hint as to how this administration feels about the bill of rights, and that doesn't upset you, then you are hardly American my friend.

I am with you on this but be careful of labeling someone un-american by the fact that they don't agree with you. Our culture has drifted far. The public schools and the media do not do a very good job of keeping faith with the important points of history and the basis for the liberty we enjoy.

How many here could understand what motivated someone to join the Son's of Liberty hundereds of years ago?

I don't blame any for being ingorant. It is when you are not and still don't care that you begin to enter the real of criminally complicit.

The problem with these tools that are being used unconstitutionally now is not the current use to which they will be put. It is a noble thing to protect us. The problem is that these tools will still be there and in other's hands someday. After all, who cans say who the president will be after Bush. Can those who seek power over others really be trusted with it....no that is why we must guard our liberty.

Agreed!!! Stop name calling! What do we do? That is the question. Who is supposed to provide the oversight, Congress , supreme court? How you going to get Republicans to investigate/provide true oversight on other republicans? My mind draws a BLANK !!!!

I was joking about that very specific Democratic Representative (the Massachusetts one too--great state, just it happens to have a few that have fallen off the EDGE of the Left :). I guess it was something only I get the meaning behind, so I apologise that I portrayed it that way. I do need to be more careful of what I say when it comes to politics.

Ah my bad :) Yea, this stupid internet thing makes it difficult to convey tone :) It is especially difficult when engaging in heated discussion about a sensitive subject.

Not to worry the govt has plans for the NSA...

(2006-05-12) — Concerned that the National Security Agency (NSA) may have violated the civil liberties of Americans by analyzing records of millions of phone calls to detect patterns that might indicate terrorist activity, a bipartisan coalition in Congress today will unveil legislation to scrap the NSA and replace it with a more ‘transparent’ spy agency.

According to language in the measure, the new intelligence unit, dubbed Open-Source Intelligence (OSI), will “harness the power of the internet to protect the right of the American people to know how their spy dollar is spent.”

“There’s nothing like sunshine to ensure accountability,” said an unnamed Congressional aide who spoke in exchange for a lobster dinner, a fine chianti and a $12 Macanudo cigar. “Just because the enemy is among us, using our telecommunications infrastructure to plot the next major attack, doesn’t mean the government can sneak around doing secret stuff simply to save a few thousand, or million, lives. We have rights.”

Under the terms of the bill, the OSI website will include a list of all covert agents, with photos, home addresses, email links and IM screennames. As the OSI gathers data, it will be accessible in real-time through the website to “premium subscribers,” but even non-members will be able to view the aggregated data, and listen to brief, sample clips of legally intercepted phone calls.”

http://www.scrappleface.com/?p=2257

What is this Dwaterman? NEO_CON sarcasm!! I love it!!! Politics!!

How bout this, Police may search anyone anytime anywhere they want!!

No actually, it is a joke. Follow the link. It's *highly* amusing.

Hi PC_Tool

It was amusing!! Thanks!

There’s nothing like sunshine to ensure accountability,” said an unnamed Congressional aide who spoke in exchange for a lobster dinner, a fine chianti and a $12 Macanudo cigar.

Heh...gotta love it.

I noticed you stayed out of the fray on this one!
I particularly liked the coverts being in a listed directory!!!
Dont be too hard on the conspiracy theorists you know you love it when you get all flustered!!!

Meh..

Got better things to do than restate the obvious over and over.

*grins*

Im on leave. I love to hear what everybodys b****in about though!
What do you think though about the Fcc claming up? I did a little research and apart from congress they are supposed to answer to grievences!' Just a little strange or new business as usual I wonder? Maybe there are no real grievences?

FCC handles broadcast complaints, and even those it handles poorly. Outmoded, outdated, underfunded, and operating on proceedures decades old.

The FCC's thoughts regarding the NSA collection of data would be about as useful to me as a pile of cards, a hangar, 2 matches, and a bottle of fabreeze while I'm trying to troubleshoot the latest compatibility issue with Axiant.

I mean, sure, you can disarm a nuclear missle and take out an entire platoon with 'em, but...

(Sorry, to much MacGyver lately)

...

"When a government continually
hides the truth from the citizens
you can bet it is hiding something
shady if not illegal"

...

This is typical naive liberal stupidity !

Shall the police publish day-by-day details of
their ongoing investigations so criminals can
keep informed by reading the newspapers ?

Or an army publish it's battle plans so the enemy
can learn what they are on the evening news ?

Same thing with anti-terrorism measures !

If we don't want the stinking terrorists flying
planes into our buildings, setting off car bombs
in front of grocery stores, and shooting into
crowds, we got to keep the details of our
counter-measures secret.

Anybody except a Leftist ideologue America-hater
can see THAT !
...

The Computer Rodent

...

Hi PC RAT !!
Police should be able to do their jobs. There are conspiracy theorist out there , well because government hasnt always been forthright with the people(what gov has!)
The truth is always in the middle.
It is not left or right to question the government, man. Its the American duty to always be on watch. I mean we should all help our gov,. fight the enemy but also make sure the gov isnt doing something crooked, you know? There is a hoopla because of two reasons<

POLITICS and NO Serious OVERSIGHT.

Oversight does not require "spilling the beans" . It requires an alternate agency to make sure no funny stuff is happening, thats all.

None of your comments ever make any sense.

Glad it wasn't just me, lol.

Ultimately we have to trust someone... who would check the agency that checks the agency?

Ultimately we have to trust someone... who would check the agency that checks the agency?

If everyone would shut up about this issue Id get three agencies!!

No I think General Hayden has agreed to increase congressional oversight, Im ok with that. But some would then say hey Hayden is the architect of the program and then yada yada yada it will never end.
I ultimately trust some more than others but no one completely.Secret programs need to be secret!!! Secret programs need to be audited and have substantial oversight due to the ability of severe abuse.NO LEAKS/NO ABUSES I ultimately believe in compromise!!! Its how we used to get things done but hey what do I know?

First of all a wise person never completely trusts the government. Second history has shown that no matter how well intentioned, all forms of government eventually succumb corruption abuse of power. There is not a single instance that I can think of that this has not been true. Usually it happens because the people trust the government and do not insist on proper oversight. When a government continually hides the truth from the citizens you can bet it is hiding something shady if not illegal. Was that a simple enough explanation?

Well no, it doesn't jump right out as an explanation to any of the posts in this thread, so maybe you could point us in the right direct...

"When a government continually hides the truth from the citizens you can bet it is hiding something shady if not illegal"

...OR...security related.

Hmmm...which shall I go with? Paranoid Conspiracy Theory or reasonable parsimony?

...

"What freedom was/is sacrificed?"

...

The answer, of course is: None !

The U.S. Supreme Court ruled over 20 years ago
that there is no "expectation of privacy" regarding
phone numbers. And all the NSA collected was
phone numbers.

People have an inflated and unrealistic theory of
what their "rights" are !
...

The Computer Rodent

...

The supreme court once ruled that Black people were not human and were thus not entitled to human rights. That did not make it correct then, just as it is incorrect now. The supreme court is just that, a court, fallable and limited.

The minimum information collected that we know of was phone numbers called to/from (who people talked to), but there is much more information in the very same databases. Do we just blindly trust them? The state secret argument is just too convenient

The application of a filter on rights that are spelled out in the constitution (filtering due process with a ridiculous expectation of privacy argument) is the same as outright abrogation of that right. Any law or interpretation that runs counter to the constitution is no law at all. It may as well never be written. The passing of years does not affect this.

If the british government knew who the commitees of correspondence were communicating with there would have been no revolution. The right to be private in the exercise of your free speech rights is inviolate. The fact that some are too shortsighted to see the harm in giving up that right makes no difference. I in no way give up my 4th ammendment rights because I use a phone. There is no contract I signed to give up my rights when I push buttons on a phone. The government has no right to know who I talk with unless they obtain a warrant. My expectations of privacy are only that and are plainly irrelevant to whether the government has a right to the data. If I publish my phone bill in the paper and they read it, then I could not complain. I have not done that as they would have to try not to see that.

The biggest reason that the government has no right to this information is that no-where in the constitution are they given it. No law, precedent, war power, or prevailing opinion can change this bedrock fact. Any power not specifically granted is therefore explicitly prohibited to the government. Any law to the contrary is unconstitional and therefore invalid.

As for an inflated idea of rights, I beg to differ. It is in fact the opposite. People have accepted a poor substitute for the rights they should enjoy in exchange for the government taking care of bothersome things they don't want to be hassled with...or perhaps in the name of security. Perhaps soon the government may tell you what medical care you can have or what your doctor can prescribe to you. If they control the money, then they control the care. They already tell you how much you can save for retirement by taxing the heck out of you if you deviate from their rules. They take money from you in the name of social security and treat it like their personal piggy bank, then dribble out a pittance to you when you reach an ever increasing age. Oh there are some injustices that have been dealt with but the government gave us no rights. The people are the holders of rights the fact that some have been recognized (slavery abolished) and others not any longer has no bearing on that.

Where is it in the constitution that the government has the right to take my property (part of my wages that I earn) and hand it to someone else because they are more deserving of it than me? Why can I be arrested and held for an extended time with no proof simply by the mention of terrorist? Why do they get to listen in with no warrant when I call my Brother who lives in Italy. What is to stop them from labeling me an enemy combatant (after all, I have a gun in my house) and shipping me to gitmo with no due process. They have no need to furnish proof? Only their goodwill prevents this in the country we now have.

Well said. There must be oversight and oversight is being denied. The people are the last check and balance. It doesnt matter what info it is , its ours. Someone told me that regular people can get ahold of just about any info to lead them to your door, IE data/ ID thieves, but one thing they fail to mention is that if Joe Smoe comes to your house ,well you can defend yourself,but government? Well I do not believe the Gov is After regular people it is this steady "creeping feeling" that they are pushing the envelope. Government needs warrants. I agree that if a court upholds a law or renders a decision that violates the Constitution , well the court would be in error. No Gov is perfect so its up to regular people to keep a constant vigil.

what do you people think the NSA is after that you feel so threatened?

They feel that it is more of the "principle" of the issue than the issue itself. It is good to have convictions, but it is also good to periodically question them. I can understand how people are upset with this. Watching CNN the other day on someone elses TV (NEVER on mine) they could have convinced me of a Government conspiracy, but I know better. There is a conspiracy here--and I fear that it is the people and not as much the politicians. Here's why:

1. USA is a government "Of the people, by the people, and for the people"
2. Politicians are people (that's debatable I suppose :)
3. Politicians are corrupt

THEREFORE: People are corrupt.

That's basic Philisophical reasoning for you. We're the loons, we're the lying cheating SOBs. It goes back to the (in)famous quote "America is great because she is good. When she ceases to be great, she will lose her goodness." -- Alexis de Tocqueville*

*If it wasn't him that's fine--it is a good quote regardless of who truly said it. Just speaking to the "de Tocqueville fraudians" out there.

Bourgeoisdude,

Most americans are good hardworking people. True the media gets its ratings from glorifing BS. However people are beginning to run from the direction, or at least not support the direction of this gov. Now it is true the philosophical reasoning you state but you fail to mention that maybe all this discourse is a result of good people not trusting the direction the gov is going in and they want it changed. Maybe the die hard supporters of Bush and his foreign policy are pretty much all thats left telling everyone else with a different view that they are lets see, crazy, wackos, twits,,you name it, but that doesnt mean that the other 65% of America is wrong does it? Maybe it just says that the people have lost confidence and this gov has failed to win the hearts and minds of its own people.(majority) There doesnt need to be a conspiracy for there to be distrust! I keep hearing "the people voted Bush in office. This is a democracy' Well hell that doesnt mean the people cant change their minds and say this isnt right or we dont agree anymore, right?

Wow--I expected an uncivilized response. Those are so much easier to argue against. DARN YOU :-)

"Most americans are good hardworking people."

Yeah, that's a pretty accurate statement.

"True the media gets its ratings from glorifing BS."

Amen to that!

"However people are beginning to run from the direction, or at least not support the direction of this gov. Now it is true the philosophical reasoning you state but you fail to mention that maybe all this discourse is a result of good people not trusting the direction the gov is going in and they want it changed. Maybe the die hard supporters of Bush and his foreign policy are pretty much all thats left telling everyone else with a different view that they are lets see, crazy, wackos, twits,,you name it, but that doesnt mean that the other 65% of America is wrong does it?"

Very reasonable, very accurate. Now, just to clarify--I do not blindley support Bush. He does not even defend his own views while they are constantly attacked. I voted for the "John Wayne" Texan type--a "get'er done!" President I believed. He has recently broken my trust in him--starting with the issue over the Dubai Ports issue.

To me--this NSA thing isn't about whether we agree with Bush or not. I'm sure he played a significant role in allowing the NSA to do what they are doing. However--he could not do it by himself IMO, no matter how evil he is. I mean, just look at the Republican party. They are even against his stance on immigration for the most part. I think maybe the system itself is still sane--to say that one evil man can corrupt an entire government would prove that the checks and balances truly don't work.

To clarify: I do not believe Bush is evil. I think he has let the polls affect him and he has been a poor leader since. Whatever we think about him, the truth is that the public has lost confidence in him. In many ways I have. I believed he would be the answer to prayer--that somehow he would fix all the corruption in the White House. That was dumb on my part. I refuse to believe America has elected an evil traitor twice in this country, and there are so many things he has done in the past that I applaud. I think he has lost his purpose. He was losing in the polls, so he compromised in order to "win over" a tiny group of moderate Democratic Senaters\Representatives. By doing so, he has now lost the hearts of the American people on both sides.

I went WAAYY off topic, but reading your post made me realise we are not nearly as different in opinion as I thought we were. This makes me believe more in America...maybe we can get through this triumphantly. Thanks for the intelligent discussion :)

Who wants to really believe our leaders are EVIL? Thats so sad. I just dont believe evry word they say!! America will not only get through this we will learn and we will win. We must Identify our enemy and attack. We must help those who cant help themselves. We must support our leaders who demonstrate leadership and condemn those who dishonor our principles..... I am proud to fight in Iraq for people like you. I am proud to possibly die for my Americans who dont agree with me also.... Please keep your heads about each other and keep an eye on our GOVERNMENT!!!!

Not to pick a nit:

Because you refuse to believe it is not the answer as to why it is false. That was the final response Germans gave, too. I know I've said it earlier, but I believe the similarities are startling. You have an underling that creates an interruption of civil rights, and Constitutional guarantees. We surmise, but have not seen corroborative evidence as to the initial (or ongoing) purpose, yet we "hear" about it nonstop. It is an illusion, wrapped in an enigma. 260+ no bid contracts, answerable to one person, for companies whose only marketable product is data mining and storage. The government gets plausible deniability, and the companies are protected from prosecution. Who owns the information (whatever that information may be) that is mined, trolled, and stored? Yes, all are happening. Not occasionally. There is no laser beam approach here, and there has not been because the government considered it to be cost-prohibitive. The response was "get it all and we will figure out what we want." Not need, not what the warrant allows. And, that's why no FISA. The government, the client, owns the data. Who are the victims. Ask the organizations who are targeted for their verbal disagreement with the Government, the Administration, and the plan to completely eliminate the middle class from the American landscape. The latest victim ? The Veteran Administration's Small Business program. Now, I gotta ask ya. Is that supporting our heros, er whut?

The program was the brainchild of Hayden, who has used the executive privilege, National Security, and "Need To Know" arguments ad nauseum. Why is it legal? Because he says it is. Why is the FCC not investigating? Because they were told, in no uncertain terms, not to. The same reason Senators who were totally outraged have become nothing more that completely incompetent, fetid puppets. Why? Because the simple reality is that we, the American People, are not only buying this outrageous, traitorous, and felonious conduct; hell, we're not even looking the liars in the face while they tell the newest tall tale!

The right of the governed is not, has not, and never should be granted autonomy to those who govern. From the origins of this country, there was, if nothing else, a silent agreement of honor, trust, and service. Now, they take and disassemble Constitutional guarantees.

And, just to bring up one more time:
The President does not have the Contstitutional Authority to declare war. That is solely retained by Congress. There was a Authorization (limited to 90 days, by the way)for Use of Military Force, but no war declaration. This Napoleonic, empire-building, megalomaniacal misfit has brought us, as a nation, to the complete and utter contempt of the entire civilized world. You know, the one we used to be a proud leader of.

When is enough enough, exactly?

About ten months ago, I say.

Enough!

America is a joke these days. All this preaching about freedom and democracy as an excuse to invade other nations and impose sanctions while at the same time p*ssing all over their own citizens rights. Don't even get me started on the "Patriot" Act...

...

"America is a joke
these days"

...

Then move to a different country ! ( And don't
let the door hit you on the butt on your way out. )

Just be warned: Whatever country you move to,
we ~may~ have to invade it.
...

The Computer Rodent

...

Cmon, America is NOT a joke!

We are suffering growing pains. When have we had to overhaul our CIA, NSA,ETC..... because of terrorism. It will take awhile to get the appropriate balance between National security and Civil Libs. Even when we do, not everyone will probably be happy anyways, so be patient!

The rat has teeth!!!!!

Amazing. You managed to hit the reply button but not actually reply to the points made in my post but spout some arrogant, sarcastic tripe. Well done!

Dont take the rats comments personally! You are entitled to your opinion. I think he got mad because you said America is a joke, some people would rather say The Government running blah blah blah or the agency in charge is a joke, know what Im saying? Americas your country friend and its as good as the people who live in it and belive in it. Dont let a few bad apples make you lose faith in everyone and evrything in America>... take care

"the classified nature of the program prevents the agency from doing so."

"Meaning that they knew about it all along" says a friend of mine.

I happen to think it's just the NSA hiding behind the banner of "national security" which is just as moronic as "for the children". If it means more restriction on our freedoms... excuse my language but *explitive deleted* the both of them and *explitive deleted* the FCC for not doing their job.

What was that Ben Franklin said again? "Those who sacrifice freedom for security deserve neither"

What freedom was/is sacrificed? That is the second time I have seen that quoted in reference to this and I am curious.

...NSA hiding behind the banner of "national security"...

Do you know what NSA stands for Idiot!!!!

Deleted...*sigh* I will not become what I despise, I will not become what I despise, I will not...

Nice quote. How about this one?

"Anger is never without Reason, but seldom with a good One. " -- Ben Franklin

"Meaning that they knew about it all along" says a friend of mine."

That proves that there were checks and balances, right? If the FCC knew all along--then perhaps THEY SECRETLY APPROVED IT before the Government proceeded to gather the data. I could be wrong--but so could you. We don't know the half of it, and in order to secure this country, I pray it remains that way.

Ha ha ha thats funny BOGUNCH!!!!!

NSA, is it No such agency?

Just kiddin man!

"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither--and lose both." ~Benjamin Franklin

Sad to think that there are no checks and balances anymore.

You're right--in the news media, there are no checks and balances. Now, in GOVERNMENT there are--but CNN would (heat of the moment comment deleted)...needless to say they would never explain how it really works.

In government there ARE a lot of checks and balances, you are correct. But when three congressmen know about a spy program collecting phone numbers from all calls in the United States, that is hardly oversight.

There has to be a point where civil liberties and security can coexist. Ruling by fear and trampling civil liberties is what some other people in power have done in the past. Are we going to a government where people will start turning over their friends as terrorists just so they don't get into trouble a-la-McCarthy?

Whats next? I say if we have video cameras in every home and on every street then there will be no crime because you will get caught instantly. We better start filtering the internet then so you can't learn how to make a bomb. The list goes on...

We are reaching a critical mass on what we as citizens should tolerate, and the Bush administration has been trampling rights and abusing his power under the guise of "national security" and "nine-eleven".

If you don't mind the NSA collecting phone numbers then what is your limit as to what you would accept?

Hi Bourgeoisdude!!

TRUE!! but whos the oversight for the NSA, 5 congressmen? Right?

I dont care if they have all the phone records in the whole WORLD, if thats what they need, just a little oversight though would be nice. You remember WARANTS dont you? Can you say, a nuetral magistrate?

Whats Up AaronDobbins,

Well said. Here is another, "if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear' Have ya heard that one. Some people would let police search anyone, anywhere, anytime, whats so free in that? Be careful though you will be branded a Democrat skunk b**** liberal if you try to think. I wish everyone could remember when government was Republican and democrat and regulkar people where well just AMERICANS..... oh those where the days....

Warrants can be tracked by insiders. The whole point is by approving it using alternative means that are NOT REVEALED in order to ensure that terrorists can't predict every single move we make days in advance. They are "hiding the truth" from terrorists, but unfortunately, the media is so insane that they must hide it from them as well to prevent the media from broadcasting it to the world. Oops--the bas****s did it anyway.

Now, I really truely see your point about this. Allowing a small step above the law will be the first step to anarchy, I absolutely understand that. The problem here is that we don't truly know if they stepped over the line or not. Do we know there wasn't any oversight? Do we know that the President just "decided" one day to "steal American's private information" just out of spite? Maybe he's a psychopath who wants to see how evil he can become before America impeaches him? That very well could be the case--if so, then after all of this is done I will repent of my ways :)

However, that is only one of many possibilities. I have presented you with another, the one I happen to believe. If I am right and there is a "check and balance", is this still an issue? Ah--another discussion, perhaps.

If there is a proper oversight commitee on this than I do not see any problem. They are Phone numbers after all. I can also see the genius in the program . By using call patterns one may locate potential threats. Wonderful. Who could possibly argue with that!!! I wish we could go back like everyone and save all the innocent people who where killed on 9-11. Hell I wish I could have first slap at Saddams head!! My friend we must not ever lose our heads. America is bigger than us. More important than us only, you know! The bill of rights must never be thrown in the backseat, ever. I keep hearing the dems view about rights being viol;ated. I still am fuzzy about what rights are violated,however can you or anyone for that matter see the power of such a machine in the wrong hands? I mean I seriously doubt an entire agency could go bad, but there are always some d***s who think for WHATWEVER REASON THAT THE RULE DONT APPLY TO THEM. Wow I would sure hope somebody is watching. I understand that Hayden has agreed to allow the full 33 members to provide oversight but that has not happened yet.

Yea, I used to be in the mindset of "if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear" in terms of random drug testing and the like. Funny how things change as you get older and start to realize that this sort of ideal leads to a big brother 1984 style of governing. No thanks!

I'd also like to point out that people are Democrat fanboys just because they don't like Bush. Hell, a lot of his own party do not like the administration. I live in Indiana and voted for the newly elected republican governor over his old same-ol, same-ol democrat opponent even though I'd consider myself a democrat.

Being a swing voter is so much fun, I highly recommend it. It is a great way to irritate your friends and family when they find out!

Point taken!

I am just the crusty american marine type. I remember the drug testing dilemma!! Bet we they wish it was just weed now dont they!!!! They got stuff now out there that I cant even pronounce.

Cant label myself democrat if I hate Bush, just in as much that I cant call myself republican if I liked him. I am 100 % American and I dont care what anyone thinks about it baby!!! I am on the side of least Bull s***!!! Take care friend

Look, this discussion is very interesting, but very hypothetical. I was brought up in Europe and when the East German governement fell, it became very clear what a government surveillance syste, run in a rational manner and based on the full compliance and feat of the people could produce.

I went to the archives in a small community just outsid of Berlin, the level of detail was enormous. All that information was collected from ordinary citizens without the benefit of electronic measures. They only came in later mostly for data trolling and creating links.

My friend's file, which we borrowed permanently, inculded almost every conversation he had with an Auslander (myself) I was identified by Passport #, Social security#, piecdes written with examples, hotle records, who I visited not only in East Germany, but also in the West, including Belgium, France, the UK and Luxembourg (a notorious money laundering site in those days).

What is frightening is that we had done nothing illegal, but it was all recorded just in case, one day, they might need to detain me, blackmail me or just need information on my friends or I.

By the way, for those of you who think we can "trust" any governemnt with that kind of information, all those records became available for looters in the weeks following the downfall of the communist regime.

Just the simple fact of writing on this blog could be enough to get you noticed and under surveillance. If you are a muslim, you could end up in an FBI investigation, or renditioned to Egypt or Cuba.

Please make sure that whenever possible, push for LESS government surveillance, we do not want to be East Germany.
Sorry, lonng note.

You know if it was not the NSA and say another Corporation the FCC would be all over this. You can bet the FCC recieved a stand down order on this from higher up. Thus you get the cop-out message from the FCC.