It kind of upsets me when they post something like this. They don't quote a source for their news, and I can't verify it with anywhere else. I'm not saying it's not true, I just wish they could at least say what their source is. For some reason I seriously doubt David Worthington was on the scene in Prague at this software developers forum. :)

"...according to reports by Reuters."

FYI: "Reuters (www.about.reuters.com) premier position as a global information, news and technology group is founded on its reputation for speed, accuracy, integrity and impartiality combined with continuous technological innovation. Reuters strength is based on its unique ability to offer customers around the world a combination of content, technology and connectivity."

Did you happen to read the article, or just the headline?

WAIT!! You mean there's an article?! Damn, I knew I was missing something. *DOH* ;-)

hmm.. yeah... You know, nobody will probably even read this because I'm so late to reply, but the reuters part wasn't in there... It was obviously revised after I b****ed. :)

http://msdn.microsoft.co...udio/launch/default.asp

The article was posted at 1:30 PM, and you made your comment at 7:30 PM. I responded to your comment 4 minutes after you made it. I seriously doubt David was watching the article constantly for 6 hours and happened to fix it before I made my response. I also took the time to visit Reuters.com to get that quote for you :)

...while I churn out Java code that runs on any of dozens of different application servers on any of a multitude of different machines. Including free combinations like JBoss and Linux.

And none of it is Microsoft version 1.0...

You can go ahead and do that while other, smarter, programmers start programming on the new, quite superior platform.

OMFG, I can't believe you just said that outloud! That statement is as bad as Chris with his "Perl sucks" attitude LOL!

ROTFLMFAO

oi...no personal stabs! And perl does suck, it's a scripting language not a programming language.

Java is dead as soon as .NET comes out. Face it.

When you screw with Microsoft, they screw you over. Its nice to see Sun get their anal cavaties reamed after they got a judge to rule a Java Runtime Environment out of XP.

I wasn't attacking CPUGuy.. ;-)

If perl sucks, and is nothing but a scripting language, then why can I compile it on a handful of platforms, and hand out closed source binaries with link libraries? That *USED* to be true, but it isn't anymore. Besides, if you are working on a project for your company, what does compiling matter? Perl compiles nearly instantly into memory when an application is executed anyway. ;-)

You should take a look at it sometime, 5.6.x is impressive. ;-)

I disagree, java is not going anywhere anytime soon. It's too entrenched in the market. .Net is a day late, and a dollar short. There are millions of Java programmers out there, they aren't just going to relearn another language, and not eat for months in the process. I think .Net is a cool concept, but unless it's adopted by a real standards body, and no patents are attached to it, I hope it sinks. I would hope the same of Java if it was created by a Felony Monopolist. ;-)

While I agree that Java isn't going anywhere soon, unless Sun get their act together it will be going!

As for relearning another language - there really isn't a huge transition from Java to C# and with J# plus all the tools MS is going to release to aid developers in moving from Java to .NET, it's going to be very tempting for those developers who like the Java language (i.e syntax) but only care about writing applications for Windows.

I guess we'll see what will happen, but I can't see MS doing anything less then what's required to get as many developers as possible on their side.

oooh smart ass.

You don't need to compile perl scripts, the fact you can in a nice feature i guess =) And let's really be honest here, the one thing perl has going for it is Regular Expressions. I think I'll stick with C/C++ and Java (depending on my needs). There's a reason why perl is mainly used for small scripts and not full-blown applications.

I've designed several "full blown applications" in perl, I'm on the road to C++ now, but I must say that it is a very capable programming language. It was a scripting language in 1995 yes, 2001 no. :-P I like that fact that in less than 20 lines of code create a posix compliant memory monitor complete with email pager functions. (mind you I use a lot of shell commands mixed with my perl, but that's why they are there in the first place ;-) It's array subsystem is SWEET, it doesn't get much better when you are working with data. IMHO.. Funny, the curve from perl to C++ isn't all that bad either. :-)

The curve from perl -> c++ is much worst than the curve from pascal -> c++ and it is/will be? a hell of a lot worse than the curve from java -> j#/c# with the tools I'm sure MS will release - after all it's in their best interests to do so.

Look in the end, we can get into a similar argument between programming languages that we do over operating systems. You should use the best tool for the job. Therefore if you need to monitor something on a server or things like that the absolute easiest way it to write a perl or shell script, once agin depending on your needs. On the other hand if you're writing a complete OO application which may or may not have a GUI, perl may not be the best tool for the job - in fact it most likely won't be =)

Agreed :-)

I'm not trying to argue that Java will die, but if .NET is the superior platform that I believe it will be from playing around with the betas, Java will be doing all it can just to hold on to the developers it has today.

For a good (IMO) article on the subject check out the PBS site:

http://www.pbs.org/cring...pit/pulpit20011101.html

You can compile .bat-files into binaries, but that doesn't make batch-file scripting into programming...

Who are these smart programmers that switch programming languages at the drop of a hat that you speak of? I don't know many developers that are so keen to switch languages - even if the differences are minute.

LOL PERL is far from a simple batch language. You are comparing Apples to Oranges. One can technically do anything in PERL that one could do in C++ (Anyone care to duspute that?).

*me sticks his hand up*

1. Speed wise, there's no comparison, whilst perl scripts are indeed much faster to write they do not execute/run at the same speed as a C program.
2. Inline assembler.
3. Threading and Unicode support for Perl lags behind.
4. Client-Side applications - most? people do not have a perl interpreter installed on their system.

Also worth noting:
1. The language itself does not enforce any strict OOP rules although modules are available to enforce OO.

>*me sticks his hand up*

cool, knew you would. :-)

>1. Speed wise, there's no comparison, whilst perl scripts
>are indeed much faster to write they do not execute/run
>at the same speed as a C program.

perlcc converts perl into C code, then compiles it, SO when compiled it will run at the same speed as a C program will. When

>2. Inline assembler.

True, but it is not a necessary to have one.

>3. Threading and Unicode support for Perl lags behind.

Threading? PERL 5.6.1 supports threads. Sure it's not as mature as C, but then again C has been around a lot longer ;-)

>4. Client-Side applications - most? people do not have a
>perl interpreter installed on their system.

Agreed, but most people don't have msvc libs either. If it's compiled, all that is required along with the binary is the perl dll.

>Also worth noting:
>1. The language itself does not enforce any strict OOP
>rules although modules are available to enforce OO.

I haven't done any OO stuff, so I can't comment, but you still haven't told me that I can't do the same task in perl that you can do in C. (We can take this off forum if you'd like, I think it'll be a very interesting conversation :-)

I just got back from a week long training on ASP.NET and a .NET overview, and from what I have gathered, the .NET framework is going to support all languages. I mean, common people, there is a COBOL.NET out! So, yeah, there is going to be a learning curve to be able to use 'your' language with the VS.NET, but I imagine that it will not only speed up development, but with the Web Services they are touting, you can write/use a Web Service in your App (web or otherwise) that was/is written in an entirely different language. I have to admit I am looking forward to writting code in C++, and referencing a Web Service written in PERL.NET or J#. Thank god for Microsoft for not using COM anymore, and going the route of XML/SOAP.

C# is being submitted to a standards organization in Europe of which the name I can't remember.

>perlcc converts perl into C code, then compiles it, SO when compiled it will run at the same speed as a C program will.

I have to ask the obvious question...why not just write it in C to begin with =)

>2. Inline assembler.
>True, but it is not a necessary to have one.

Ahh but it is at the best of times, anything realtime just about requires hand written assembly and things like multimedia encoding/decoding benefits greatly from the speed advantages. How many mpeg decoders have been written in perl that are fast enough on hardware made even 5 years ago.

> Threading? PERL 5.6.1 supports threads. Sure it's not as mature as C, but then again C has been around a lot longer ;-)

Supports yes but my point was that it is not as mature as C and time is irrelevant, Java has even more mature threading than C. And you didn't mention anything about Unicode =)

> Agreed, but most people don't have msvc libs either. If it's compiled, all that is required along with the binary is the perl dll.

There are other c compilers =) Microsoft don't own everything (just yet) =)

As for specific tasks that cannot be done in perl... I canonly think of one.... realtime! Perl cannot do anything in realtime and yes that is a big thing. Theoretically you should be able to do anything in perl since it can call c libraries (but that's cheating), so as long as you don't mind the performance hit you can even write an MPEG-2 decoder in perl. I however will move to the side, stick up a sign saying 'perl sucks' =) and write the decoder in C.

>perlcc converts perl into C code, then compiles it, SO when compiled it will run at the same speed as a C program will.

I have to ask the obvious question...why not just write it in C to begin with =)

As stated previously, I am learning C. I already know perl as it is the most portable admins tool out there. ;-)

>2. Inline assembler.
>True, but it is not a necessary to have one.

Ahh but it is at the best of times, anything realtime just about requires hand written assembly and things like multimedia encoding/decoding benefits greatly from the speed advantages. How many mpeg decoders have been written in perl that are fast enough on hardware made even 5 years ago.

Dunno, I haven't looked. I'm going to guess that there have been none. I agree that it is valuable, if you are writing realtime applications.

> Threading? PERL 5.6.1 supports threads. Sure it's not as mature as C, but then again C has been around a lot longer ;-)

Supports yes but my point was that it is not as mature as C and time is irrelevant, Java has even more mature threading than C. And you didn't mention anything about Unicode =)

Hardly know what unicode even is, enlighten me.

Agreed, but most people don't have msvc libs either. If it's compiled, all that is required along with the binary is the perl dll.

There are other c compilers =) Microsoft don't own everything (just yet) =)

True, I use GCC, the msvc reference was just off the top of my head, I haven't a clue what libraries I'd need for GCC. (if any?)

As for specific tasks that cannot be done in perl... I canonly think of one.... realtime! Perl cannot do anything in realtime and yes that is a big thing. Theoretically you should be able to do anything in perl since it can call c libraries (but that's cheating), so as long as you don't mind the performance hit you can even write an MPEG-2 decoder in perl. I however will move to the side, stick up a sign saying 'perl sucks' =) and write the decoder in C.

oh wait, what about that perl CSS decoder? That's pretty close to realtime. :-P

Unicode is a standard for character encoding regardless of platform and language (i.e. Chinese, Greek etc those kinds of languages). For more information check out www.unicode.org. It makes it really easy to write multi-lingual applications as an example.

As for the Perl CSS Decoder you mentioned, that was hardly realtime and it required a fair bit of power behind it =)

Those smarter programmers are the ones that see where the future is heading, and that is .NET, weather it's a bad thing or good thing, we don't know yet, but none the less, that is the future, and if you want to make money, that's where you go.

BTW, J# provides all of the same functionality of Java.

Unicode is a standard for character encoding regardless of platform and language (i.e. Chinese, Greek etc those kinds of languages). For more information check out www.unicode.org. It makes it really easy to write multi-lingual applications as an example.

Cool :-)

As for the Perl CSS Decoder you mentioned, that was hardly realtime and it required a fair bit of power behind it =)

mmm I huess you are correct, I haven't used it myself. I haven't even seen the code but once, and I didn't really pay any attention to it. I just thought I'd throw it out there. I have built interrupt driven applications, but realtime is fascinating. (Hell, as I've said before, I'm not even a "coder" I just like to pick with it on the side ;-)

Java is not open source, although you seem to have forgotten that in your post. At least .NET is. I do, however, concur that it will not be a Java killer. If it does, it will be 4-5 years out at the earliest.

Java does need to change. The basic model is sound, but there are quite a few things that can be improved. As Sun is more focused on hardware, they may end up a day late and a dollar short on this one.

Standards board is ecma - http://www.ecma.ch.

This is the same group that has the standard for ECMAScript, formerly known as JavaScript.

Depends on whether you are talking programmers or architects. To me, the language is largely inconsequential. Good coding practices go across language boundaries. If you are married to a language, you are somewhat stuck in your career.

Most developers do stick to a particular language, as it is easier to remember one syntax. ON the other hand, dropping Java for C# or J# is not a big leap. I am not suggesting that someone dump Java, just that they leave the door open.

But PERL has one of the best string parsers. Scripted language or not, it works pretty darn fast compared to many other scripted languages. And, it will compile for the .NET platform if ActiveWare has it's way:

http://aspn.activestate....ASPN/Downloads/PerlASPX/

.NET is not open source, where did you ever get that idea? I never said that java should be open source either. ;-)

Java should be open-source, just as Sun promised at the start. Note that I don't think it should be GPL'ed!

I suppose. I don't really agree with the GPL myself. It's great for the O/S, it promises compatibility between releases.. Outside of O/S, naah.. I didn't realize Sun promised to OpenSource Java.. If they said it, then yes they should do it. :-)

You don't have any idea what a programming language is do you?

Sppire

No, you found me out, I confess, I don't know what a programming language is, could you teach me master, I am but a poor Comp Sys Engineer, what would I know what a programming language is.

The language is nothing to worry about. What would be a huge sea change for Java developers is the new Microsoft API for .NET. This is immense and cannot be learned in a few weeks. This is what will prevent the migration you're talking about.

Chris I am a professional programmer in Visual Basic and I anticipate the release of Visual Studio very much even though the language transition I will have to go through is quit drastic for VB. I have been with VB since version 2.0 and I have gone through all transitions before microsoft owned VB and after microsoft owned VB and many of my friends like to learn the new languages as well. In order to keep a job you need to stay up with the latest and greatest cause someone up top heres these words flying around and all the sudden he wants his company to use the latest and greatest and this has happened to me numerous times on differing jobs. Switching languages is a pain in the a** but if your a developer it goes with the job.