Great article. Very informative with accurate information that I saw at CES 2006. I want HD DVD now!!!

$1,800 for Blu-ray? $499-$799 for HD-DVD? How much are the movies gonna cost?

Heck, I do want hi-def DVD movies (480p leaves much to be desired even on my relatively small 42-inch LCD projection), but I'm gonna stick to HD channels for a while before getting a hi-def DVD player.

I am a consumer, and I have decided to wait.

Wow. What does this have to do with the 360? MS backs HDDVD but it's Toshiba who makes it.

Tri_Edge:
"Not including the PS3, which has a 99% chance of being $500 or less, depending on how much Sony wants to lose."

What makes you think it has a 99% chance? because CNN said so? What the hell does CNN know? Their estimate is just as good or worse than the Merrill Lynch estimate that put the PS3 at $600 to $700.

If you read the original article in which CNN made the $500 claim then you would see that they have nothing backing that up besides a guess from a financial adviser.

Neither PS3 or Xbox 360 were mentioned a lot in this article, you know why? Because

It's HDDVD vrs. Blu Ray, not 360 vrs. PS3 you morons!

Leave the consul politics out of it for one minute. I'm tired of you loser gamers warping facts to fit your consul preference. This is about movies and data storage, not games. Stay out of it. Don't forget that the PS3 has USB drives too and will be able to add HDDVD to it if necessary. You don't have to highjack the article to make sure a company which you have no connection to (stock, and uncle who works there ect...) "wins".

It's about the consumer winning, not the company. You should warp your ideas to reflect what would be best for you, not planing global domination for $ony or M$ you brain washed corporate slaves.

I know that Blu-Ray Disc and HD-DVD are two choices for the consumer 40s, I believe Blu-Ray will be the best choice.
Also it may not be Microsoft alone, (MS and Toshiba) who's making these claims, but if it is, Microsoft seems like it is trying a lot harder than Toshiba to make HD-DVD win.

The way that gaming comes in is this:
Microsoft has been lieing about the PS3 and Blu-Ray Disc, saying both will be complete crap.

The PS3 games will be able to have a lot more information, that's data storage, which is what you said earlier, so that's where data comes in.

Microsoft thinks if they can make people distrust Blu-Ray Disc, they will make people not want to buy the PS3 because it uses Blu-Ray Discs for all the new PS3 games. If HD-DVD wins, the PS3 will be out of it, but if Blu-Ray Disc wins, Neither systems will be out of it. This may seem like a plus for MS, but then they would still have an opponent that would make it so it keeps losing money.
This may not be about the PS3 vs. Xbox 360, but it does get dragged into it by Microsoft going to have a drive for HD-DVD and the PS3 using Blu-Ray Disc.
Both of those will become inexpensive players compared to other players.
If the PS3 was $600 or more, it would be suicide for the company, so it won't go for that much.

Right now, the head of Warner doesn't like Blu-Ray, but is going for HD-DVD and Blu-Ray because they don't want to lose money on this, they will hopefully earn more than usual by selling both formats.

In the future there might be some players to play both, but not until this war is over.
Sony probably started it, but that is because they saw a chance, and took it, maybe made a bad decision, so the only way to win was for war.
I don't like this whole war thing, I wish Toshiba and MS would just stop because right now Sony is winning, but they are probably hoping they will win.

There probably will be a lot of companies backing both, trying to save themselves, and gain some more money, and possibly lose money (sorry manufacturers),
Sony should have been nice and let the consumers decide which one to accept, because that would have been more in the mind of the consumer and not corporate adventure.

Microsoft and it's honkeys will probably do what they did with the Xbox 360, by releasing it too early and allowing so much crap to happen to the systems.

There is a Blu-Ray player set to be $1,000, and there will probably be more of them that will be cheaper before that one will be released. (Not including the PS3, which has a 99% chance of being $500 or less, depending on how much Sony wants to lose.)

As of November or October, the current PS3 would cost the consumer $1,000, that was before they scrapped some things, you can read more about it in an issue of PSM that was from last year. So right now it might cost $800.
So Sony would probably lose $300 with each one sold, but they will probably wait until it's $700 or $600 to make each one so they would only lose $100-$300, depending on how much it will cost.

The PS3 will probably the largest selling Next Gen HD player for this year.

This entire thing, or at least most of it, it entire bull made up by Microsoft.

The Blu-Ray Disc will have on a lot more content allowing high definition games, but they probably won't be hd, on the movies.

The games for PS3 will still be in HD, I'm just saying that HD-DVD will have a lot less features.

The Blu-Ray isn't just taking old movies and remastering them, it's taking movies that haven't ever been seen in HD, because frankly, the puny DVD's can't hold that much info. So a lot of movies are filmed in HD and haven't been released on HD yet.

I don't really see what the fuss is about with HD either, but apparently a lot of people are making a big deal about it so movies are being filmed in them and tv's are being made to support it, but right now only Satellite, regular channels, and Cable offer HD.

The HD-DVD is weaker, has less space, and will fail. It may take some time for it to fail, but Microsoft basically screwed it once it released the Xbox 360 without the drive.

Blu-Ray will also be harder for anyone to copy, now that it has better technology than DVD's and HD-DVD, so Blu-Ray is also screwing thieves.

Holographic Discs will also come into play, but that amount of space (1.6 TB) won't be needed for a long, long time, so it won't make a difference.

Also Holographic Discs will be very expensive, as of now the players would cost $15,000.

Those next, next generation DVD's austin is talking about, won't be needed for maybe 5 or 6 years from now, maybe more, because there simply isn't any need for them, just like the Holographic Discs. The HD tv's nowadays probably wouldn't support the 3D images to be viewed without the glasses, at that probably would take a lot for a tv to do.

Recently I’ve read interviews with James Cameron where he claims the movie industry is attempting to “head off” piracy by moving away from conventional filming techniques. The new technology encompasses “digital 3-D” which allows 3-D images to be viewed without the funky glasses. I’m not sure of the specifics except it will jump data storage requirements well past the 25 or even 50GB storage level of next generation DVDs. Instead next, next generation DVDs like the one announced last year by Maxell will be the desired format, 300GB.

At some point the studios and hi-tech manufacturers will realize that they have missed *two* opportunities to sell the world a new format device and new format media. There is a cost associated with delay and perfection-- delay is money missed and perfection leaves no room for up-sell. Better to be half-right twice as often. The worst thing for the studios is that anyone can watch HD content on their computer *today*... As long as they refuse to care about HD-DVD or Blu-Ray.

It's allmost all BS and marketing hype...

You have to get new players, you have to buy the movies again etc etc... B.S.
What I think would be enough is to include MPEG4 AVS or VC1 in DVD specs and with the more efficient codec you could fit HD material right on the standard DVD (DL), which would allow for
evolutionary shift to HD... We need evolution not revolution since most households do not even have HD TVs, not to mention the specific TVs with 1080p format...
(By the way, my Philips DVD player already plays MPEG/DVIX encoded movies although in SD...)

This is not to say that I do not welcome the new media: after watching TV in 1080i for about a year DVDs are real eyesores... However, given the circumstances I would side with HD-DVD as it seems to be the less costly, evolutionary option at this point...

Oh, and let's make sure all the drives are software upgradable in case there is a update to the codec... Let's learn our lesson.

sounds like a boycott on blue-ray and fox. Let the PS3 fail due to sony's own ignorance of what we want and need in a "new generation" dvd.
I personally am looking forward to backing up many of my files and computer stuff.... this means i don't need DRM or AAC?! whatever. there for there wasting valuable time in getting this out to me for personal use.
As for adoption of the medium, DVD is fine for me on watching movies. HighDef is a joke! if all there doing is taking older films and redoing them in better def, this is just like technocolor.. same crap, new face... bah!

This entire thing, or at least most of it, it entire bull made up by Microsoft.

The Blu-Ray Disc will have on a lot more content allowing high definition games, but they probably won't be hd, on the movies.

The games for PS3 will still be in HD, I'm just saying that HD-DVD will have a lot less features.

The Blu-Ray isn't just taking old movies and remastering them, it's taking movies that haven't ever been seen in HD, because frankly, the puny DVD's can't hold that much info. So a lot of movies are filmed in HD and haven't been released on HD yet.

I don't really see what the fuss is about with HD either, but apparently a lot of people are making a big deal about it so movies are being filmed in them and tv's are being made to support it, but right now only Satellite, regular channels, and Cable offer HD.

The HD-DVD is weaker, has less space, and will fail. It may take some time for it to fail, but Microsoft basically screwed it once it released the Xbox 360 without the drive.

Blu-Ray will also be harder for anyone to copy, now that it has better technology than DVD's and HD-DVD, so Blu-Ray is also screwing thieves.

When oh when are the manufacturers ever going to start to think of the consumer? This is all a scheme to make us buy new equipment because they have sold all they can of the present technology. As far as comparing the two new players, I'll bet if you put them side by side, and played them on identical units, you couldn't tell the difference. Comparing price, guess which unit would sell the most.

i read recently that blu-ray will not be using the newer h.264 compression that hd-dvd uses, but rather the older mpeg-2 compression that current dvd uses.

i've been experimenting with h.264 avc compression for some time now and have found that SD-DVD content can be compressed using h.264 avc to one fifth of its original size, with no loss in quality.
by the same logic that means that content of five times that resoultion (1080p), using h.264 would take up little more space than a SD-DVD.

blu-ray will need every bit of its 50 GB capacilty to store video content ( approx 8.5 x 5 = 42.5 GB)

by comparison, hd-dvd would require approximately 10GB to store a feature length movie, out of an available 30GB.

admittedly these figures are approximate and dependant on content. what do you guys think?

i must say as someone else pointed out, i too will be seriously pissed off if they try to further compress SD-DVD content to a single layer. SD-DVD's have enough compression artifacts already!

Don't listen to rumours. Both formats will fully support h.264 compression.

SD-DVD should remain in its existing form and NOT put on an HD-DVD.
There is NO way to get SD playback off an HD-DVD without reducing the quality of the SD presentation by a reduction of 50%.
SD must remain in its SD only form NOT as a reduced quality piggy-back!!
If HD-DVD takes the market they will kill off SD discs and force SD to only be available as a single-layer on a HD-DVD creating a false difference in quality between SD and HD by having made SD only half as good as it is now.

I don't think any movie studio or manufacturer will stay exclusively on one format.

Movie studios will go where the customers are be that HD-DVD or Blu-Ray.

How does Pioneer feel about a $400 PS3 coming out around the time they are trying to sell a $1800 Blu-Ray player??

Once the PS3 comes out and fails to "wow" people, Blu-Ray will be the next Betamax.

Betamax, Minidisc, UMD, Memory Stick, etc. Name a format that Sony made that was ever used by anybody other than themselves.

I found this:
Blu-Ray will win, according to companies already supporting Blu-Ray
http://www.gizmodo.com/a...-already-won-023974.php
These support Blu-Ray according to www.blu-raydisc.com
Sony at 12%, Fox at 12%, Disney at 18%, Lion's Gate at 3%, and Warner at 23%.
Excluding Warner, it's still at 45%

This is from a while ago, so it doesn't include the latest.
It includes:
Sony: 12%, Fox: 12%, and MGM: 6%. If MGM is with, which it is hard to tell other from Gizmodo, then with the #'s above, it has 51% of shares.

But remember, don't think that all places are telling the truth.

in the end, all drivers go to support the two formats

On my left HD-DVD cheaper, consumer compliant (less protections) without media (only few studios and Mikeysoft DRM support)

On my right Blu-Ray with medias/more space and a bit more costly (all Films Majors will go to Blu-Ray coz of it's anticonsumer protections Mikeysoft DRM outside (no royalties for Mikeysoft here))

So question is : do you plan to buy a support for witch there's no Blockbusters Title support ?

You can also go to www.blu-raydisc.com
This will have a list of a lot of the Companies that are already sided with BlueRay. Also, the BDRom may actually become cheaper, because they could make enough of them to make the cost of the manufacturing equipment to be covered. Including when Sony made the first PAPER Blue Ray disc. (At first I didn't believe it either.)

Sony is going to win this one, no doubt.

My guess to that is because which side the studios that produce the most movies per year by far are on...
PARAMOUNT
WARNER
UNIVERSAL
Two of those studios have released release dates for many movies coming out in just a few months, even some big names.
So when consumers are hit with this 'revolutionary' new HD movie phase... are they going to wait for another format? I doubt it. Only people I can see waiting are ps3 gamers and people who value space above all
All i can see is a hddvd bonaza with sony trying to tell people they shouldnt buy hddvd because theirs is better....

The question of BLOCKBUSTERS to me means nothing. I have taste in cinema and the will power not to watch crap.

All of the techies out there should check their history books. We have been through this before with video tape. Sony created the technically superior Beta format and the easier, cheaper VHS format was supported by almost everyone else. Seen a Beta tape lately? The marketing power and cost effectiviness will always win out in the marketplace.

Agreed. If Blu-ray costs more than HD-DVD, then "ignorant consumers" will always buy what's cheaper. I mean come on, when it comes to the movies themselves, Blu-Ray will not be so supperior in quality to justify the price difference.

There is a great big myth about BETA.

1. on the consumer level SONY made the mistake of not allowing other manufacturers to have BETAMAX at its launch.
2. In some markets such as Brazil BETAMAX was King for years.
3. The idea that BETA technology lost is a very provincial consumer perspective. Betamax which was an off-shoot of 3/4 Umatic went on to became BETACAM which then became BETACAM SP which then became DIGIBETA. Digital Betacam has been used to broadcast 90% of all TV transmissions that you have watched since the early 90's. Recently hard-drives have begun to take over but DIGITBETA is the world broadcast standard for SD television. It is the format off which most of your SD DVD masters were authored to disc either directly or to hard-drive from digibeta then to DVD.
4. SONY BLU-RAY has a great deal of professional and industrial usage HD-DVD has none. So SONY if they lost at consumer level could still take their disc format in the 50gb form to movie theatres, TV channels, hospital applications, oil industry, marine biology etc
You name it.

(i)PS 3 supports Blu-ray
(ii)two blu-ray RW(100GB) could have replaced today's hi-end notebook storage(normally 120GB) ,hence we needn't to buy any external hard disk drive.

I think I would eventually choose blu ray as my first choice,because of its space.

Xbox 360 will support HD-DVD, but neither case matters since game consoles are not going to determine the winner in this format war. The price of home players and the media will. While the extra space is nice it's the only advantage Blu-Ray has going for it and when all is considered I don't think it's worth the big jump in price and possibly lower reliability.

The price difference will dissapear after a year or a couple months, because people will buy the players with their credit cards and ruin the economy by doing so (once the bill collectors come and don't get anything), but that's a whole different story.

The Blu-Ray will probably have a higher begin rate for price, but will drop after they are bought enough, and they are probably higher quality than HD DVD.

There are probably going to be players for less than $1,800, and I also saw one was going to be sold for $1,000 and one for $800 on message boards. But don't get ahead of yourselves.

The reason HD-DVD's will be cheaper is that they are almost exactly like the DVD, hence the name. Blu-Ray is being completely created, or mostly, so it will cost more.

Also, the Xbox 360 will never support HD-DVD or will in a while, a long while, because Microsoft will sell attachments to the Xbox 360 for, what I heard, $100. If they do that, more people will spring for a brand new one that already has it in, or it will bring up the price of new ones that would have it installed.

I think Blu-Ray and HD-DVD should concentrate on the computer industry for data backups.

I cant see that any consumer is going to want to buy a new DVD player to Play new DVD formats. This new technology is not wanted for home entertainment movies.

It is far too soon to bring out a new format. DVD has not been around long enough. Releasing these formats will stop DVD sales and no one will embrace the new technology in fear that their movies will become obsolete again.

DVD sales have sky rocketed. People who wouldnt ordinarily buy movies on VHS have been buying them on DVD because of quality, special features, no more chewed tapes etc, etc.

Its not uncommon for households to have extensive DVD librarys and powerful home entertainment systems and your'e going to tell me that they are going to be happy about re-purchasing their movies in a new format?

If this new technology is not backwards compatible then both manufacturers can shove this new technology.

"I cant see that any consumer is going to want to buy a new DVD player to Play new DVD formats. This new technology is not wanted for home entertainment movies."

People are now buying high definition televisions though, so they are going to want HD content to play on them. For those paying the huge prices for these TVs the extra cost of one of these new players isn't going to be that much of an issue.

Yes but you are not thinking about the movies. People have huge DVD library's. Do you really think people are going to pay extra money to buy a second copy of all of their movies in this new format?

The answer you are looking for is NO F__N way?

Go away Blu-Ray!

If everything stated in this report is correct and true.

I think we all should side with HD-DVD because obviously Blue-ray sucked too much.

I like both formats, but it is good and bad at the same time for consumers, because we have to pay for both formats/players to view movies, episodes, etc.

Both are good and very similar in certain ways, but support, word of mouth, and availability will win the format war.

HD-DVD has decent support from the movie industry but Blu-ray has 2x the support in this area as well as much more support in PCs. Dell, one of the leading manufacturers in PCs, is supporting Blu-ray exclusively. HP, second is supporting Blu-ray and HD-DVD, Sony, NEC, and others are also supporting Blu-ray.

Normally, everyone looks at a disc format as of now, which is, no offense, stupid. You should ALWAYS look into the future with any format because we as consumers have to pay for these formats. Blu-ray has a more secure future than HD-DVD because of capacity and could prove to be as cheap or cheaper than DVDs, in manufacturing atleast. HD-DVD is cheaper now, but how long until something replaces the format with something newer and us as consumers have to pay for these high priced media players and new formats? IMHO, the more logical choice is Blu-ray.

If studios were smart, they would not support one of these formats over the other. They would make their content for both, and allow the consumer to choose which one they like better.

So many misleading statements!!

Blu-ray discs can withstand scratches from a screwdriver. HD-DVD cannot. TDK developed a new coating that is used in all Blu-ray discs for this purpose.
http://news.com.com/Try+...100-1041_3-5455621.html

Blu-ray discs use MPEG-4 AVC (H.264) or VC-1 - the same high quality codecs used in HD-DVD.

Blu-ray disks are up to 50GB from day one. 100GB multi-layer Blu-ray discs have already been demoed. Excellent for backing up data.

When backing up data, you'll enjoy Blu-ray's higher data transfer and burn rate!

Blu-ray is clearly superior.

The disc they attaced with a screwdriver was a standard DVD, NOT a Blu-Ray disc. Also from that very same article (which is outdated):

"Blu-ray places the data layer much closer to the surface. This allows the discs to hold more data than HD DVDs. But it also renders them more vulnerable to damage, so much so that the Blu-ray industry group stowed its rewritable discs in a protective cartridge, much like a cassette tape."

Even with this coating they were deemed so fragile that they were originally going to have caddies like DVD-RAM, but no longer. Their fragile nature along with the high prices and Sony's ways of doing things means I refuse to even consider this product. Clearly superior indeed.

"When backing up data, you'll enjoy Blu-ray's higher data transfer and burn rate!"

Oh really, where did you get that from?

Blu-Ray : 36.0Mbps
HD-DVD : 36.55Mbps

25gb and 50gb respectivly not 50 and 100

I keep reading HD-DVD fanboys saying how great it is to have a HD-DVD movie on one side and a normal DVD movie on the flip side of the disk. Am I the ONLY one who does NOT want to have disks that are used on both sides?

It's hugely problematic when it comes to marking the disks and their content, and it makes it infinitely more likely that you'll scratch and dirty the disk quickly.

This becomes even more important when it comes to using it for a data disk in your computer.

Cowboybebop wrote:
"Actually It would be 30, 45 or possibly 60GB flavors as they wouldnt need the other side of the disc to be the 15g dvd version of a movie for blank media on the pc. So imagine that 30g burns on each side :D"

That scary prospect alone could scare me AWAY from HD-DVD. I do NOT ever want to have writable surfaces on both sides of my removable storage *shudder* The big companies might find ways to manage to still stamp their disks and protect them a bit from wear and tear - but my home-burned disks would die before I needed the data backed up on them again if they were used double-sided.

At this point I'm not crazy about either format, but then a lot of things aren't known about either format yet. I will reserve my judgement until they've been finalized and actual units for sale are out. Then it will be possible to decide which is the superior technology. Until then all you/we are doing are blowing wind with our behinds when we try to say one format will be clearly superior...

I will join the critique of the jounalistic standard of the article though. BetaNews may well have talked to Blu-Ray too, but if so it should have been put together in ONE article. Anyone linked to this article - as was I - will see a completely biased (and partly outright lying) smear campaign against one format by someone on the other side. That's just not jounalism - that's idiocy. Like allowing the false statement about the $1800 pricemark to stand unrefuted - that's weak, very weak jounalism.

"Am I the ONLY one who does NOT want to have disks that are used on both sides?"

What on earth are you talking about? It's not going to have data on both sides. The regular content is simply in a different layer. Also simply supporting one format over the other does not make one a "fanboy".

http://img.photobucket.c...739/KR74/Misc/78_12.jpg

I know all about layered disks - that's not what I'm talking about here. Several people - including the quote I included - were indeed talking about using both sides of the disk - not using different layers.

I'm guessing they were simply mistaken. Anyway it's nothing to worry about, HD-DVD won't have two sides like that.

The HD-DVD seems like the better format in terms of cost per GB.
Also, the HD-DVD players are two times cheaper than Blu-ray ones.

There is a Blu-ray disc player inside every Playstation 3. The Playstation 3 will retail for under US$400 and be on US shelves mid-year, and Japanese shelves by May.

Most people aren't going to buy a game console to watch movies on.

Most people wouldn't, so it would be a major plus for the gamers. Also, if people did, it would be a major plus for Sony. lol

people buying the PS3 to watch movies only is not a major plus for sony.

they make money on the games not the console.

You're right. I just found out that on every Xbox sold Microsoft loses around $100, with Sony loses about $25 for each PSP sold in the U.S., and the Gamecube loses less than $10.

So yeah, it would not be a plus.

Actually, it will be a plus. Remember that Sony owns patents on Blu-Ray and gets a fee for every Blu-Ray disc shipped (the main reason MS doesn't want to support Blu-Ray). So if people buy PS3's just to play movies, Sony still wins.

Both technologies suck: Tiffany's-like prices for the players, & worse, the price per gb for blank rewriteable discs is several times that of hard disks. No thank you, i'll wait another year for holographic-- its larger capacities & gb transfer speeds WILL be worth a premium. The only folks who buy initial hd or blue ray will be elitist sucker fools being separated from their money: http://news.com.com/Blu-...100-1041_3-6024750.html

This Holographic Disc talk is getting a little old. It's not even available and the player will cost $15,000 and $120 for the disc. So I can't figure out how you can complain about price when Holographic is so much more.

Personally, I going to wait for the Quantum Phased-Particle Disc to be released which is a million times better than Holographic Discs.

What about the SuperMolecular EndoSteel discs? :)

Hmm... i think this war going to be a draw. 50GB is always good for example adding more extras, but again if it cost too much... Aah.. i don't know.. we have to see it, right?

Well, that settles it for me. I've decided on taking the HD DVD side of the battle. I'd rather have quality, instead of quantity.

Quality, instead of quantity???

This entire thing, or at least most of it, has been made up by Microsoft. They are trying to distrust you with Blue Ray. It will be cheaper to make HD DVD, but the quality, in truth, and quantity, both go to Blue Ray Disc.

Don't believe everything you see, especially if it is made by a biased source. For all you know, I may be biased. LOL

Oh, so this is all a Microsoft conspiracy. Right...

Correct

There was also another story by Microsoft saying that Blue-Ray would put out about 40% efficiency, while HD DVD would put out over 80%, which the Blu-Ray Disc Association quickly said it's just FAKE PROPAGANDA that Microsoft made.
This is the TRUTH:
To switch DVD manufacturing to HD DVD it will cost $100 million, while, this is where most of the cost of BDROMs is, will be $1 billion dollars. This will be not noticeable in about a year, but in the next few months after they release the first player, it will dissapear.

So, to recap, Microsoft is scared and is lying to gain trust.

Yea in order to have full backward compatibility on the Xbox 360 you have to subscribe to Xbox live service. This is one of the reasons why I will never get it, because I don’t feel like paying 800 bucks for a premium xbox 360 pack and then pay a 20-40 dollar subscription fee a month to use the full abilities of the console. This is mostly the reason why I don’t play MMORPG’s because the good ones require a sub.

What country is that?

In the US, the Xbox 360 Premium is $400 (I know they're still hard to find), and Xbox Live costs $50 per YEAR which works out to a whopping $4.17 per month.

There are only two games you can play on the Xbox 360 for the Xbox out of the box. Halo and Halo 2. All others you have to download some drivers just to play it, and a bunch of games you can't even play. This is another reason PS3 will win the console war.

if you said so it must be true.

fanboyism FTW?

You must not always believe what you hear. But, I have looked up on this information and also when Microsoft says it has more money of films on their side, according to the companies that support Blu-Ray, it is a lot less, since Blu-Ray has over 50% according to Gizmodo, including Warner, which is at 23%, I think, although Warner is going for both, aparently????
http://www.gizmodo.com/a...-already-won-023974.php
These support Blu-Ray according to www.blu-raydisc.com
Sony at 12%, Fox at 18%, Disney at 12%, Lion's Gate at 3%, and Warner at 23%.
Excluding Warner, it's still at 45%

Umm... you could get a silver XBOX Live account which is free and would allow you to have all of your backwards compatibility. The only time you would need to pay for a subscription is if you want to play mulitplayer games online. Oh... and a year's subscription is $50 bucks, or just over $4 a month.
Research before you complain...

For those that missed it, BetaNews did speak to Blu-ray first, and the HD DVD interview was in response to that. Like everyone else, we're trying to get both sides of the story and fight through the FUD.

http://ces.betanews.com/...t_Format_War/1136581584

And to clarify one more point: Blu-ray and HD DVD will use the SAME codecs for movies. The quality of the movie will be identical. Pioneer is claiming otherwise, but HD DVD will support full 1080p at launch.

Is it true that they'll use the same codec?

I read that Blu-ray will still use MPEG-2:
http://us.gizmodo.com/ga...g-old-codecs-140423.php

HD-DVD will use the newer VC-1 codec. There goes Blu-ray's capacity advantage...

Is this Nate as in Nate Mook? Hmmm...interesting.

Just as a side comment on all of this. The reason why lots of the studios went with HD DVD is quite simple - money. To author/create Blue-Ray film discs you need to spend about 1 million pounds (nearly 2 million dollars) on new software and hardware; for HD DVD you need very little. Production line for HD DVDs is a ten minute turnaround from DVDs. This is all about common sense, not Sony, et al., bull.

http://www.macworld.com/...5/05/10/hddvd/index.php

It appears BetaNews has not done the right thing by siding with HD-DVD. BetaNews should bring Blue-ray's own explanation for people to compare and debate.

What does this have to do with the Blu-Ray problems?

And Beta News DID compare. They only report what they know, they are not reporting their opinion, only newsworthy information. They didn't side with anyone.

And with the problems that blu-ray has, why WOULDN'T you want to go with someone that is obviously not having a problem?

Possibly....

If you think HD-DvD will be in tight situation becuase of low capacity, then dont worry. because we never thought of DUAL LEYER disc with CD-Rs. then DUAL LAYER DVD came out.

So there is more possiblity that it will go TRIPLE LAYER. i see no reason not to go TRIPLE LAYER.

Check this out: triple layer HD-DVD:
http://www.macworld.com/...5/05/10/hddvd/index.php
And dual format HD-DVD/DVD. Holy awesome, Batman! And I am siding with HD-DVD.

Does it not occur to you that the SD layer is only 50% the spec of a normal proper SD DVD?

I cannot believe you call this journalism. You interview the competition to get your "facts" on BluRay? What a joke!

No kidding. Regardless of the truth of any of these statements, interviewing a HD DVD representative about problems with Blu-ray as your ONLY SOURCE FOR THE ARTICLE is inexcusable. I can't believe this article passed editing and is even now still on this site. What a sham.

Oh get over yourselves. Betanews also did an interview with the Blu-Ray people, and if you are skeptical feel free to look up what is said in this article. You'll find they are FACTS. So quit whining already fanboys. If this article had been bashing HD-DVD you'd probably be praising it.

HD-DVD is obvious but Blu-ray will have to be explained. I'd query the the life of B-r discs. they'd appear to be more delicate. Probably more prone to errors? Price may well be the deciding factor. Staying with ordinary dvd until later.

Alright, So Current 1980P HD Movies won't fill a BD-Rom, But what about higher resolution movies? I mean. The Resolution of movies is increasing so rapidly, how is HD-DVD gonna keep up with a MAX of 30GB? What if 2 years from now Movies will be 2460P, By then a 30GB HD-DVD will be FULL (without extra features) Also, Blu-rays advantage will be the Playstation 3. Plain and simple. now, if M$ had made the X360 HD-DVD compatible from the factory, then HD-DVD may have been the clear winner. But the PS3 will be the reason BD-Rom will come out on top.

In 2 years, this will be old technology and we will have different ways in wich to watch movies, so it doesnt matter. Most of what is bought today(on the shelves) is old technology. We can't keep up.

It is way too expensive to stay up to date. We just need to pick the middel of the road and stay with it as long as we can(hoping that it will all be backwards compatible).

The last TV upgrade was color, and it is going to be a long, long time till the next upgrade from HDTV, so 1080p is going to be the highest resolution for the foreseeable future at which time HD-DVD/Blu-Ray will be obsolete.

That's simply not true. Like Practice said, the last upgrade to our TV was the introduction of COLOR. With HD technology, we will not likely see anything beyond 1080p for DECADES. Remember, HD has been a dream since the 1980s when we first started hearing about it. It's now 2006 and we're getting HD movies on optical discs! Wow...

The next technologies are just starting to be researched, but a move to them will take 20-30 years.

The idea that technology is so rapidly changing that the 1080p is going to go the way of the dinosaurs in just a few years is RIDICULOUS.

You are off topic. We are talking about Blue-ray, and this technology will be outdated very soon. The bending of light is nothing new, but there are other means to displaying 1080p on a TV. There have been other changes to the TV; such as screen size, analog/digital, LCD/Plasma/DLP, remember the tubes - just a few. Perhaps you are just too young to have seen any changes.

You are taking things a bit too literal and personal. It is silly to think that 1080p is the end of technology development for the TV - in your opinion. I am sure there are going to be better and greater things in the very near future. I would hate to see the future of TV be based on the remarks of one man.

At the rate at which technology changes, your 20-30 years can seem like 5-10.

I predict the winner of the HD-DVD/BlueRay battle to be: The Good Old DVD As We Now Know it!

In the old VHS/BetaMax/(and a few others) battle, there was bound to be a winner among the contesting systems, because there was no practical alternative way to make video recordings.

But go back in time and look at the battle for a 4-channel LP recording system. None of them succeeded, because the alternative was to stick with the 2-channel standardized LP stereo system, which was quite good enough for most people.

Today we have the DVD, which have a sufficient good quality, with a lot of titles and playes. And it can be copied!

So why should I change to HD-DVD or BlueRay for video purpose?

The fact is that neither Xbox360 nor PS3 need these disc drives but Sony has put it there for the purpose of getting a large number of units out. This may, however, have been a mistake.

Sony is planning to use MPEG2 instead of H.264 or VC-1, why? Because it is important for Sony to justfy the 50MB discs and further, make possible content transmission time consuming (after the protection has been cracked .... and this happens always).

Did you know that a few years ago Sony on purpose made all their CD&DVD players incompatible with CDR and CDRW discs in order to limit CD copying ... and they at the same time limited the sales of their equipment, too.
This was changed very quickly .... but they lost market share for sure.

In ten years time, all disc formats will become obsolete from mass market point of view. You shall order the media to be consumed to your media device (possible a PC) and view/listen to it only once or you make a copy to your local mass storage for later consumption (with some extra cost, of course).

This is the future, and Sony is again agaist it. Some companies seem to repeat the mistakes over and over again.

Esa

Why does everyone keep claiming BD only handles MPEG2? Maybe because they don't know any better. Maybe because they've already decided against BD and will make any claim to put it in a negative light.

Check here:
http://www.blu-ray.com/faq/#1.8

"What video codecs will Blu-ray support?

The Blu-ray Disc Association (BDA) is still in the process of finalizing the BD-ROM specification, but they have stated that MPEG-4 AVC High Profile (previously called FRExt) and Microsoft's VC-1 video codec (the proposed SMPTE standard based on WMV9) will be mandatory. They will also include MPEG-2 support for playback of HDTV recordings and DVDs. Please note that this simply means that all Blu-ray players and recorders will have to support playback of these video codecs, it will still be up to the movie studios to decide which video codec(s) they use for their releases. The BDA expects the BD-ROM specification to be finished some time in 2005. "

Note: H.264 and VC-1 support is MANDATORY.

Where does the idea that Sony will only support MPEG3 come from? Well, a considerable amount of HD material has already been generated for HDTV. HDTV ONLY uses MPEG2. Sony made the BD bigger so that existing HDTV material could be transferred to disc directly rather than requiring it to be re-encoded into some other format. Sony uses the bigger size to allow MPEG2 direct transfer as an example of how BD is better at keeping costs down for video content producers. Some idiots assumed that meant that Sony would only be using MPEG2.

I scratch my head when I read a report that starts out with a statement:

"The aperture setting on standard DVD is 0.6, with the setting for HD DVD a slightly smaller 0.65." ..... "Blu-ray has adopted a 0.85 aperture, meaning the divots on the optical layer are smaller and more prone to error."

.6 is now SMALLER than .65?? And .85 is smaller still??

Must be new math.

The apeture setting and the size of the divots are apparently inverse.

At least, that was my take on it.

Hi, they must be talking about the effective f-number of the optics. It is inversely proportional to the numerical apperure.

I thought of that too, but f8 is much slower (less light - hence smaller aperture) than f4.5. An f4.5 aperture will gather the same amount of light as the f8 does in about half the time.

It's nit-picking, but it just jumped off the page when I read it.

You all claim the PS3 will be the downfall of HD-DVD. The only thing I can mention is the fact that my mother has a DVD player, my father has a DVD player, my Grandma, yeah she has a DVD player. They won't be rushing out to buy a PS3 when it comes out. The PS3 will be bought by a lot of people for sure, but I know more people who would more likely buy an HD-DVD player than a PS3. Me? Well I have started to grow up and can care less about a video game console now. I would much rather had a HD-DVD player that I can have some people over, or just watch it with my lady friend. I think the last thing she is going to want to do is try to beat me in Madden.

The PS3 will have nothing to do with the success of Blu-Ray or HD-DVD. That is simply a weak argument some people use.

I don't care which format wins, but I can tell you one thing. Sony is going to sell millions of PS3's. That means that there will be a wide distribution of Blu-Ray Drives faster than HD-DVD Drives. "Ohh but X-Box 360 has an external HD-DVD Drive." It may, but not as many people are going to buy it as they do the actual Console, not to mention who's going to by a HD-DVD Drive attachment to a console? I'd rather get one for my PC or an actual HD-DVD Player. Sony made a smart decision in putting Blu-Ray in it's console. They have basically garunteed that there will be more Blu-Ray Drives than HD-DVD drives.

D'y'all realize that blank rewriteable discs will cost per gigabyte much more than hard drives?? With rebates & discounts, as much as 5x cheaper for HD's-- who the heck is gonna be adopting this?

Tell us about regional code for HD DVD.

HD-DVD is not expected to have region codes while Blu-Ray will. As far as I know this has not been finalized so it could change of course.

http://www.engadget.com/...region-codes-for-hd-dvd/

in this format war, we can see that competition isn't always good for the consumers.

There is a history here, and its never with the consumer in mind, its money. Whoever gets their first, and marketing.

VHS vs Betamax. Sony still has a market segment in video industry. VHS is basically mediocre, but good enough for consuer use, not nearly good enough for industry. (consumers lose)

kflex 56 vs x2 (motorola vs us robotics). V90 was the result.. kflex was much better.. (consumers lose)

Intel 8086 vs Mototorola 6800 chip. Again, Motorola was the clear winner, as evidenced by Apple's success, we are plagued with problems steming from this archaic architechture. (consumers lose)

IBM Microchannel vs Intel PCI.. this again, was a debacle, microchannel was doing plug and play before Intel even knew how to copy it. Then, years later, IBM drops their brand, because its too expensive, clones took over, and voila, we are left with more Intel problems (consumers lose)

OS/2 vs Windows. I may have problem with Linux, unix and other versions of OS, but OS/2 was and still is better than any other OS, period. I know people will argue this point, but there are many companies out there that still use OS/2 to this day, and OS/2 just works. If IBM would have been a lot more aggressive, we would be using OS/2, but IBM has other problems, so we have the second best OS, Windows.

(consumers still win, because Microsoft has done a great job, despite people's gripes about this product. I challenge anyone to come up with their own OS, and they will see what a daunting task it is.)

so yes, in technology, its not always good, what wins out is money and position, the consumer doesn't even get to vote. We are stuck with whoever has the money to market their product. These products are good, and all of them are history, but its been a learning experience.

Colossal Storage working on a FIXED HEAD drive version having 000 ms seek and 0 ms latency times with Terabits/sec tranfers rates possible with 10 terabytes on a 3.5 in disk having infinite read/writes.

http://colossalstorage.net

Right, I'll believe that about the same time I get my own personal matter transporter. No media lasts forever and no spinning disc can have 0 seek times and latency. Not even solid state storage devices can do that. Sorry but I think these guys are full of it. The copyright date on their illustration says 1998 also. LOL, are they planning to introduce this amazing device in our lifetimes?

No, I studied that in school very briefly. And it will be released in our life time. They have a working model in Oak Ridge, TN from what I've heard. Pretty neat idea. Not sure it's cracked up to the specs they give but it's truelly remarkable. We also discussed storing data in a beam of light. Some company in Japan, I think it is, has made leaps and bounds on that idea. Only problem is.....if a piece of dust...a hand...a molecule breaks the beam of light you loose your data. Still pretty interesting none-the-less.

I understand that the concept is real but all I see on that very amateurish page is a bunch of cheesy animated gifs, ridiculous specifications that simply aren't possible at this time, and technobabble that would have made the writers of TNG proud. No peer reviews, no independent support for his ideas, mispellings, conflicting specifications (one page says 10TB and another says 10PB), etc. It's all nonsense if not an outright hoax.

Now for the real deal here are some nice links about InPhase Technologies:

http://tinyurl.com/dhdpf
http://tinyurl.com/9wah2
http://tinyurl.com/7eqw4
http://www.inphase-technologies.com/technology/

Another legitimate company working on this stuff is Optware Corporation in Japan, possibly the one you were talking about in your post.

http://www.optware.co.jp/english/what_040823.htm

Finally a nice comparison of all the current holographic formats being worked on. Notice the largest one is 140GB, nowhere near the absurd 10TB on a 3.5" disk that other guy is claiming.

http://tinyurl.com/8oemf

Sorry for the long post everyone. :)

This is impossible, and I will not even entertain any comments on this. Any head requiring movement to another position on the disk MUST have SOME seek time, it may be very miniscule or even impercetible by today's standards, but its there, I PROMISE you.

It may be a fixed head, and seek would imply 000 seek, but the drive, or some mechanism must be able to move the data where the head is currently located. Its just not possible to access data on one part of the disk to another park with NO lag or time to do so.. its impossible.

Another little point on the backing issue. Look at the film houses backing sony, MGM and columbia tri-star are owned by sony this leaves a rather small group of actual backers. My current collection would be about 90% HD-DVD backers and im sure most will find a similar ratio.
Blu-ray will also be more suseptible to errors due to scrathed discs as well if the aperture is smaller. This is scary considering i dont own one cd or dvd that doesnt have at least a light sprinkling of scratchs.

As for consoles, Superior graphics mean nothing without the games. I hate Microsoft for the way they've gone about this, but they now own some very talented game developers. Look at what the original Playstation did to nintendo and sega's grip over the market which was more highly attributed to the titles rather than graphics. Blu-ray and HD-DVD will make no difference to the console war except through delays!

Oh yeah, i think HD-DVD is better :p

I don't see how anyone can trust Sony after their DRM / Rootkit debacle. They treated their customers with contempt and are continuing to do so now by not caring about the restrictions placed on consumer usage of Bluray products that users will have paid good money for.

Sony are only interested in screwing as much money out of people as possible, and if that means p*ssing off customers to please the film studios, then that it what they will do.

I sincerely hope that Bluray is the next Mini-Disc or Betamax for Sony.

HD-DVD also has DRM!!

The Sony branch responsible for the Rootkit, is nothing todo with Blu-Ry or PS3...

"Fox had demanded that high-definition DVDs utilize a stricter copy-protection format than AACS, which is employed by both Blu-ray and HD DVD. While HD DVD rejected the demand, Blu-ray conceded."

"Fox's proprietary DRM will run after AACS, the studio could theoretically restrict such portability."

Thank you, come again.

HD-DVD has AACS.

AACS is DRM. You make out that HD-DVD is DRM free...

No, I don't recall anyone saying HD-DVD was DRM free. Could you point this statement out to me? They both have DRM of course, but Blu-Ray has some really restrictive, proprietary crap on top of the existing AACS DRM.

No one said that HD-DVD didn't have DRM, you bonehead. RTFM.

The point being made here is that Sony is the company behind a prospective format that an entire industry may standardize on. Meanwhile Sony is also company with a history of horrendously bad decision making when it comes to technology. The DRM/Rootkit debacle is a perfect example of this.

You say that the division of Sony responsible for the rootkit has nothing to do with BluRay or the PS3 and I say bullsh--.

Sony is a company that has definitive interests in overprotecting it's intellectual property from Sony Pictures & Entertainment - not to mention backers like Fox Studios.

This is also the company that has produced such "winners" like Sony MiniDisc, Sony MemoryStick, Sony BetaMax, and most recently, Sony Connect... a little known music download service with it's own proprietary DRM than no one uses.

And while I'm hesitant to trust ANYTHING with Microsoft's backing on it, I have to believe that as a consumer, a company that is pushing for consumer choice on WHERE I PLAY MY MOVIES is doing things that are in my best interests. I've dreaming of a day where all my media can be stored on a Home Server and replicated to a Portable Player - without the need to store thousands of discs.

It's very clear that Sony does not share this consumer vision.

Just Boycott Sony. Think of the damage they can do with this!

Re the codecs mentioned; I've read somewhere that Blu-Ray will continue to use the same MPEG-2 coding of movie content as today's DVDs. In other words not use more modern MPEG-4 / DivX or Xvid.

Now, HD-DVD with MPEG-4 encoding would be equivalent with Blu-Ray with MPEG-2 encoding, capacity wise.

Anyway, I think most of the comments here are skipping the obvious fact that we consumers are all losers in this war. I want a PS3, and I want DVDs from studios on both sides.

What I hope will happen is that consumers will not buy either HD-DVD nor Blu-Ray,, and that will force both camps to come together and work out a common standard. Its wishful thinking, i know.

Blu-ray Disc and HD DVD support the exact same CODECs, so if a disc is being authored with MPEG2 it's because the studio chose to use that and not a better CODEC.

I'm still waiting to hear info on movies being produced for HD DVD (sure, we've heard the announced titles, but as far as I know only Sony has actually released details on which film was encoded first (Charlie's Angels: Full Throttle I believe) and how it was encoded (MPEG2, don't ask me why)).

Pardon me but I'm tired of people complaining about how "consumers are the losers" in this war.

Consumers are a voluntary army that can enlist at any time. If you don't want to get hurt - don't sign up. Wait until you see a side that's winning, then jump on the bandwagon. Simple as that.

If the issue at hand here is standardization to maximize content production and minimize the cost to the consumer, then y'all should be hailing Microsoft as a bunch of frickin' gods.

That's right. I said it. Microsoft is the kingpin of standardization, maximizing content production and minimizing consumer cost. You call Windows an OS tax. Meanwhile, Windows has single-handedly standardized the way an industry writes software, builds hardware devices drivers, and develops web pages.

More software has been written for Windows, more hardware is supported under Windows, and all for a ~$80. Meanwhile, the next closest competitor is the Mac at ~$110. (And relax you Linuxheads - y'all have basically the web server market and that's it)

The reality is that all this high-def DVD hub bub will get played out very quickly on the basis of high-def DVD player availability and cost. The high end afficionados will buy the $799 HD-DVD player and balk at the $1800 investment for the BluRay player. The rest of the world will buy the $499 player or the Xbox360 player to a lesser extent. (The affluence of most Xbox360 owners will make the HD-DVD player purchase a no-brainer.

Meanwhile, studios that produce HD-DVD discs will ALSO more importantly put the original low-def DVD version on the flip side of the disc (something only HD-DVD can do) and position the HD-side of the DVD as a "future value add" for customers that eventually move to HD-DVD to prevent their movie collection from being stale: "Buy this disc now, and be ready for the future of HD-DVD!" This in itself will sell the HD-DVD format over BluRay.

What about the PS3's BluRay drive you say? I think the NON-success of Universal MiniDisc (UMD) format pretty much tells the story right there. With millions of PSP units sold to basically kids with no discretionary budget and very little interest in paying $20/disc, UMD is going down in flames in a chicken-and-egg scenario... no customers = no production.

As much as it's ballyhooed, the availablity of high-def players on either console isn't going to make or break this war for either side. It's gonna be the individual players from manufacturers like Aiwa, Panasonic, Mitsubishi and other companies.

Everything will come in time...The movement...
From MPEG2 to MPEG4 ASP...from MPEG4 ASP to MPEG4 AVC...
From CD to DVD, from DVD to HD-DVD, from HD-DVD to Blu-Ray.
Just wait, be patient and look forward. It's money - for them. It's our life - for us.
Myself, i won't use any of thease, until i see real facts, benchmarks and some statistics (and costs, yes) about HD-DVD and Blu-Ray, not only words.

I personally hope that BlueRay to come out on top of this war. Not just because Microsoft is more worried about bullying a market then putting efforts into making a better product. This has been proven time and again, the latest example I can think of is delaying the release of Halo 3 till the PS3 is released(not that this specific example directly has to do with product quality). A good business strategy? Absolutly, its just sad that its what they need to compete. Where as Sony is more concerned with makeing their system compatable with 3 generations of their consol, Microsoft is too worried about pushing the XBox 360 through the door that they can't even make it fully compatible with the last generation, which wasn't even near the leap in technology. Not to mention they overheat and get the blue screen of death....yup, a true Microsoft product trait. The only reason Microsoft chose to back HD DVD was business strategy, the sucess of BlueRay with boost PS3 sales considerably. But look at the 'production model' Toshiba HD DVD player in the Las Vegas CES 2006, they couldn't even get it to work. The real points I look at when I am chooseing my side in this battle are mostly based from the storage size. Does it have extra cost with it? Yeah, but as previously stated, its not just being used for movies. And more importantly, what about the future? When DVDs came out, tons of storage, who would need more? Well here we are. There is somthing to be said about spending the extra buck now and being prepared for the future. Spending $3 extra on a movie for the first year and even $300 on a player could save you the cost of upgrading for 4 years, which greatly tips me in the direction of BlueRay.

First off, almost every game will soon be compatible with the xbox 360. The reason most of the 360s overheat is becuase they are poorly ventalated.

For the BlueRay player, its not an extra $400, its about triple that. (1800 bucks, read the article). (Based on Samsungs 1800 dollar unit)

I am going for the HD DVD. I just see it hard for Sony to win since making blueray dvds will requrie manufacurues to upgrade thier equipment, which im sure they dont want to spend all that money on. Also, ive heard that the PS3 games could be as high as 70 to 90 dollars. (Dont quote me on that!)

"Toshiba HD DVD player in the Las Vegas CES 2006, they couldn't even get it to work."
Was there even a blueray player there? (I dont know).

The $1,800 price is incorrect (at least with regard to what the cheapest Blu-ray player will cost). The cheapest Blu-ray player will likely be in the $400-500 range (the PS3 likely being the cheapest initially). The $1,800 player is from Pioneer's ELITE line of components (and those are always overpriced; their ELITE DVD player is something like $1000).

"First off, almost every game will soon be compatible with the xbox 360." That is just my point about Microsoft rushing the 360 out the door. What about all the 360's that were already sold, the buyers paying the first off the shelf premium would be the hardcore xbox supporters, the ones who have the large collection of games they won't be able to play with out having their old consol hooked up.

Sony does pi$$ me off however with their history of proprietary technology, though with support of bluetooth, Wi-Fi and (what is hopefully the new standard) BlueRay, this trend does not seem to pass onto the PS3.

Also, reguardless of how much I dislike Microsofts business practices (market bullying and releasing products where "Consumer Product Testing" means the consumer does the product testing Microsoft goes from there). I am glad that the Xbox came into the high end consol world. No company should have a monopoly in any market, not Microsoft/not Sony. Solid competition in most markets is the best way to keep resale cost low and research high. (by keeping the money going into research rather than pockets)

I believe if all studios suported both formats and let the consumers make the decision on what they belive to be the best for them and not be bullied into chosing just based on content would be the best way to make the consumer the winner in all this.

=> I believe there was a BlueRay player, but no PS3. I believe I read that somwhere, but I could be wrong, I wasn't in attendance.

Er, those people with the first 360s will get a notice when they put their game into the drive, and it will update the emulator. Just like it did for their last update. All you need is to be connected to the net, and come on, why even bother with the XBox if you're not going to use Live?

What a colossally ridiculous reason to support BluRay. To dismiss a technology simply on the basis that Microsoft is a proponent is an infantile "You're either for us or against us" frame of reference and frankly, just plain immature.

Check your premises:
- Microsoft's motivation is to get you to buy more of their Windows stuff. Hence, they want DVD content playable and COPYABLE to their operating systems for things like Windows-based Video Servers and Windows-based Portable Media Players. Simple as that. HD-DVD allows it, BluRay won't.
- Microsoft has stated repeatedly that they don't care which format wins - as long as it enables PCs to take full advantage of the format. BluRay's failure to support things like Video Overlays (like HD-DVD does) makes it impossible for Director's Commentaries to 'mark up' a video in motion to, for example, circle a mistake or a rendering issue for the interest of the fans.

Check your facts too:
- XBox 360 isn't compatible with some XBox Original games because of a complete change in CPU and GPU, and a complete change in the way XBox Live is handled. Real-time chip-level instruction mapping in emulation is no small feat, son.
- XBox360 is every bit a leap in in technology as they say it is - they just didn't have as rich as game line up as they probably wanted. Wait until Fight Night 3 or Elder Scrolls 4: Oblivion are released before you comment.
- The Toshiba HD-DVD Player DID work. Saying that it didn't is an out-and-out falsehood. Did you even bother stopping by the booth?

Boy, you just keep on at it don't you.

Who cares if you have your old XBox hooked up? I've got both of them hooked up to my 85". Most of my games run on both units just fine... AND it runs in upconverted 720p too with anti-aliasing for clarity that exceeds the original 480p resolution and that includes Halo 2. But if you owned a unit, you'd know that. It sounds to me like someone's talking about a console they don't even own.

I'll dismiss your silly rant about Microsoft monopolies and what not. If your Sith-like hatred of Microsoft wasn't getting in the way, you'd see that that has really no relevance in this context.

Since you weren't even at CES2006, I can tell you that YES, there was a BluRay player and NO it was not demonstrated at their booth although I've been told that they showed a demo during a press briefing.

Testify Holmes. Testify.

If you're not gonna hook up your XBox360 to XBoxLive, you're missing out on 50% of the reason to get it in the first place.

Excuse me but where are you getting this $400-$500 range from? Sony wouldn't give me ANY pricing details while I was at CES and neither would Samsung or Panasonic.

Meanwhile, Sony is selling samples of the components for afirst gen BluRay DVD player here and they've priced them at 118,000 yen for all the respective elements:
http://www.sony.net/Sony..._Archive/200409/04-050E/

While I know this includes a drive head for a recording laser, this translates to roughly $1020. This is ludicrous for a manufacturing sample. Even with the components sold for read-only and discounting for bulk manufacturing, I find it very hard to believe that suddenly this the player price is going to be $500/Consumer BluRay Player at release.

One things for sure however: Sony's gonna take a bath on the PS3 in terms of cost. The inclusion of a BluRay player in every unit at the supposed $399 price point is gonna be their a financial nightmare for them if BluRay doesn't become a standard.

Vince_S ... you are obviously a sony fanboy. Have fun with your non existant console when you get home from school!...maybe watch a few more CG trailers!

My 'rant' about Microsoft wasn't displaying my genral hate for the company, if you cared to read it with out prejudice. I said I am glad the xbox in the market, and you are right, I don't own one. I choose to support Blueray long before I learned Microsoft chose to back HD DVD in Sept. 2005. I am basing my preference on the things that are important to me in the media itself. The more storage I can get on a portable media is better.

I think your little fit was a real good display of immaturity, but unnecessary. The fact that you are willing to overlook haveing to have 2 consoles hooked up, great. For me, I would prefer not having to clutter my entertainment center with additional hardware. The PS3 boast two 1080p outputs, which right now unless you spend a small fortune on a LCOS display is irrelevant, but it is an examply of Sony's forward thinking. Enjoy your 720p in a consol that will be outdated in a few months time.

And if you think that Microsoft dosn't have a monopoly in most areas, you are grossly naive.

So, in an effort to avoid misinterpretation, I will break down for you exactly what I think. I am not saying that either HD DVD or BlueRay is the best technology, I am saying based on what I am looking for in a media BlueRay best suits my needs. There for I support BlueRay.

yea but you have to sub to XBOX Live service to get the compatibility and I don't feel like paying 800 bucks for a system and then have to pay 20 to 40 bucks a month to fully utilize it

Blu-Ray **is** far superior to HD DVD, is has more space, which means you and i will be able to, one day, go and buy blanks and pop them in our BluRay burners in our pcs, and back up huge amounts of data in one go. the arguing about brands is pointless, i trust sony more than i do microsoft, as does 99% of the globe. as has already been pointed out, i fear this will go the way for betamax and vhs, the poorer standard may just win. it is amazing how people have picked up on one of the best HighDef DVD players (the $1800 one) and said this is typical of BluRay... get a life!!! this is top end gear, and will be matched to a PS3 at a $350 to $400 price point... HD is a poorer technology, get over it people!!!

That's idiotic. Laserdisc was the expensive top end gear and you see how well it did overall. The "poor man's" format as you so ignorantly call it is the one that's going to win out. If you want to waste your money on Blu-Ray by all means go ahead, but don't start crying when the format fails.

I don't think you understood what he was saying. He was pointing out that the "top end player" people are pointing to (Pioneer's ELITE Blu-ray player) is $1,800, which is about par for the course for Pioneer's ELITE line. It's very likely that Blu-ray players by **other* brands will be closer to $500-1000 (and with the Playstation 3 likely being in the $400-500 range, it's liklier still that prices on stand alone players will drop quickly to compete).

In every other way Blu-ray is the equal or superior format.

The other brands are still going to be much more expensive than HD-DVD and the discs are still going to be more fragile.

"In every other way Blu-ray is the equal or superior format."

No, it's not. Aside from holding more data (which in the movie market is pointless) it has NO other advantages but plenty of disadvantages.

If you say so, heh. Somehow with the PS3 likely being sub-$500, I really doubt that a stand alone player that can't even do games is going to be over $500 for very long...

As for the last bit, care to give me some disadvantages? I'm having trouble finding any (even the DRM/copy protection is about equal).

You're assuming that every mom and pop that buys one wants to play games. Guess again. The PS3 is going to be seen as a gaming system no matter if it can play movies or not, and when it comes down to movies the majority are going to buy a proper player, not a game console. Besides HD-DVD players will be out long before the PS3.

Do I care to list some disadvantages? Try reading the article.

"the arguing about brands is pointless, i trust sony more than i do microsoft, as does 99% of the globe."

I don't know where you got this info, but it's not true. I'm guessing your using Microsoft now, aren't you? Your trusting it with your photos, credit card info, passwords, etc., aren't you?

You've given Microsoft access to your life, and you still don't trust it? Yet Sony is infecting it's own CD's with a DRM rootkit, but you do trust it? This makes no sense.

Also, the PS3 is supposed to be around $500-$600, for the base console. While the Xbox 360 was $300 for the base console.

"BluRay is in every way equal or superior format "
Oh for god's sakes... you don't know anything about the two specs do you? You sound like a die-hard Playstation fanboy. I'll even recap a few things you should have gleaned from this article.

1) CAPACITY
HD-DVD will be 30GB. Sony openly admitted that Blu-Ray will only be 25GB for the next few years.

2) LAYERING
HD-DVD will support playback layering meaning that Directors will be able to talk about a movie while it's playing, and highlight ON SCREEN things going on, like mistakes or bloopers. They'll also be able to play two movies side-by-side to show two different cuts of a movie in synch to make better use of film takes. BluRay doesn't support any of this.

3) DUAL FORMAT DISCS
HD-DVDs can be produced easily to support the older MPEG1 format of a movie on one side and the newer High Def version on the opposite side. BluRay can not.

4) PLAYER PRODUCTION
HD-DVD has been churning out production units successfully. BluRay has been suffering from production problems because of the accuracy needed for the blue laser and the purported, increase storage. Production problems = higher costs & later release = fewer products sold

5) DISC PRODUCTION
Because of the new laser in BluRay, discs must be thinner and are more prone to production problems, meaning fewer discs off the production line will be functional. Additionally, duplication accuracy will be diminished in BluRay for commercial movies. HD-DVD uses the same relative technology as today's DVDs resulting in no increase in errors.

6) MENUING
HD-DVD uses iHD, a menuing system based on DHTML which is a lightweight definitive specification that can be guaranteed to be implemented on every HD-DVD player. BluRay requires the usage of a flavor of Java called JEM that because of the varied implementations of Java on future players, it will be impossible to guarantee that a BluRay disc's menuing system will run on all players.

7) MANAGED COPY
This is a HUGE point. While there are more studios signed up for BluRay than for HD-DVD, this is pretty irrelevant: The studios will publish to whatever format people are buying. What's WORSE for BluRay however is that Fox Studios has demanded a higher level of DRM protection than what is available in the BluRay or HD-DVD spec. BluRay caved in and said they'd do it making managed copy a virtual impossibility, while HD-DVD has not. This means among other things that HD-DVD will enable people to copy and play their movies through stored copies on Home Video Servers, Portable Media Players, Home computers, etc. while it is extremely unlikely that BluRay will.

6) RELEASE DATE & COST
HD-DVD will definitively release their player through Toshiba at $499 and $799 in March 2006.
BluRay is supposed to release their first player in May 2006 through Pioneer at $1,800 however it is very likely that that release date will slip.

"you and i will be able to, one day, go and buy blanks and pop them in our BluRay burners in our pcs, and back up huge amounts of data in one go"

Wait til you lose 50gb of archival data to a format with admittedly no margin for error and no redundancy checks, we'll see how attractive blu-ray looks then.

Since I just recently read some technical articles on the two standards, I'll weigh in with what I remember from them.

1. False. They didn't say this. What they said is that it probably wouldn't be necessary initially to use more than one layer. In fact, 50gb drives have already been announced for the Spring.

2. May be true, but I personally expect this to depend partly on the possibilities of the Java engine, and few people know what's possible there. The side-by-side thing, well, that's also just a matter of encoding isn't it? There's plenty of space for something like that, no real need for that to be somehow hardware supported.

I predict that it's highly likely that Blu-Ray players will be able to get a firmware upgrade of some sort.

3. False. Blu-Ray can do this, and what's more, it can do this on the same side. HD can not.

4. False. HD-DVD has been delayed again and again. It should have been on the market way ahead of Blu-Ray, but delay after delay causes it now to become an almost concurrently launched platform. The PS3 is very unlikely not to make its May 2006 launch, and that means at this point Blu-Ray players will be out there at the latest. You may want to check Pioneer's announced Blu-Ray burner also, announced for March 2006.

5. False. DVDs, HD DVDs and Blu-Ray discs have practically the exact same dimensions. Your mistaking the fact that the layer needs to be closer to the surface. But that's the only difference in that respect. There are issues with that for which the coating was developed (effectively resulting in better protection than of current DVDs and HD DVDs), and there are issues with drives needing better stability as the lense needs to be closer to the disc. But you're not talking about any of those, which just shows how uninformed you are.

Also, it was calculated that while a slightly higher level of errors was possible for Blu-Ray, this is compensated by a more robust error-correction scheme. The net effect is that the two systems perform roughly equal in that department.

6. True, at least in theory. In practice however the chance of this happening are virtually nil. No company will want to create discs that don't run properly on a significant number of players. They'll sooner apply a iHD-like subset of JEM as a minimal standard. At the same time, at least in theory, JEM has a vastly higher range of possibilities, though they may not be necessary. We'll have to see what happens.

7. False. Nothing has been decided here yet. If AACS is decided upon on time (see how HD DVD is also running late?) that may still be the standard. If FOX gets his way, that will be an OPTION, not standard behavior, though it is possible that many companies may want to use this option - IP is their main gig, after all.

6. False. After 7 comes 8.

8. False. You don't know what prices are for comparable systems. We do however know that the PS3 will be priced somewhere near the Xbox.

Anyway, you better learn to google beyond your usual fansites, if you want to make any kind of sense here.

"i trust sony more than i do microsoft, as does 99% of the globe"

If this is true, I fear for the future of said globe.

Really, the Blu-ray people must be dreaming or are just stupid. Its extremely obvious that HD-DVD will be THE "next best thing" after DVD for consumers.

What a load. It seems like he's trying to downplay the fact that they have a smaller disc by deflecting to the issue of which CODECs are used. And that's bull. If the only thing we'd be using these for were movies, I *might* agree. But we're not, we're also going to have drives on PCs that support these formats, and 50 GB is a heck of a lot more interesting to me than 30 GB. And if it was just about movies, there's the issue that Blu-ray, at 50 GB, can use a higher video bitrate (less artifacting) than HD DVD can at 30 GB. And further, that leaves more room for HD content, optional commentaries, and so forth.

Just about the only thing HD DVD has going for it is the price of the players. And even then I'm skeptical: so far the only player I've seen priced is Pioneer's ELITE Blu-ray player @ $1,800. And it's *SO* unfair to point at that and say "look, it's uber expensive like we said!". Pioneer's entire ELITE line is over-the-top expensive, it's no shock that a first-gen ELITE Blu-ray player would also be expensive. Duh anyone? Wait for prices from companies that aren't selling the player as a top-of-the-line device (read: players you'll find in Wal*Mart for example). And if you don't believe that, then ask yourself: do you *really* think Sony is going to charge $1,800+ for the Playstation 3? Do you think they'd dare go over $500? Can you say 3DO? I'll be surprised if the retail price of the PS3 is over $400, and that'll force other hardware manufacturers to compete on price, and viola, that "price advantage" the HD DVD camp crows about will disappear.

Bleh.

I dont think the price there is dynamic. The technology blueray uses is actually very expensive and is why the prices are so high. Since the HDDVD can use currently technology with minor changes its a much more economic solution.
The ps3 is expected to be around the $500 mark which spells a very very large loss for sony at launch for at least the first year - which they hope to make back with the success of the ps3(no doubts they will).
Since both sides have mentioned that the size diffirence is hardly going to be a factor, i doubt very much it will.

Economies of scale will pretty much eradicate any advantage HD DVD has in being "compatible" with existing production lines. And since the PS3 is going to be produced in quantity (hundreds of thousands in the first 2 years), I'm fairly certain component pricing will come down. Same for disc duplication: with games being pressed in quantity, it'll drive the cost-per-disc down. And, again, same for movies.

I don't think Sony will lose much more than any other videogame hardware manufacturer has in the past when it's all said and done. And if they do, it'll at least be gettimg them two advantages: a larger installed base for their game console *and* an installed base for their new Blu-ray disc format.

I would sure hope it sells a LOT more than 'hundreds and thousands' in the first two years else its allready failed ;)

Hah, good point!

Didn't the XBox sell a couple million in the first few years? Isn't it up to 11 million sold in North America now?

" But we're not, we're also going to have drives on PCs that support these formats, and 50 GB is a heck of a lot more interesting to me than 30 GB"

Actually It would be 30, 45 or possibly 60GB flavors as they wouldnt need the other side of the disc to be the 15g dvd version of a movie for blank media on the pc. So imagine that 30g burns on each side :D

If Blu-Ray is as prone to flaws as the article indicates, it is going to be useless either as an archival or media-storage method. If the article is right, the only way BR could avoid an unacceptable risk of catastrophic read/write errors is either by keeping component quality and build so high that the players alone will take years (if ever)to become affordable and disseminate or to include some kind of built-in data redundancy packages (such as can be made for WinRar), which would slow read speed and reduce the discrete data-space available to the capacity of HD-DVD or below.

Having lost valuable archival material to DVD media in the past, I have come to realise that it is insane to trust archival backup to very hi-capacity media - this insanity would be 10x greater in the case of Blu-Ray. The only way you can trust hi-capacity media with your material is if it has acceptable failure limits. Blu-Ray seems to have no prospect of qualifying.

The PS3 thing is not irreversible if HD-DVD takes off - look at how M$ have caved in with the HD-DVD add-on for the X-Box 360. Sony could have to do the same with the Playstation.

Factories worldwide are pre-tooled for HD-DVD production, and Blu-Ray itself -according to the article above- will only use as much storage space for the film itself as HD-DVD.

This is starting to look like a no-brainer - HD-DVD wins.

HD-DVD will win for sure. Cheap, practical and more reliable. SONY and its products sucks. How can you trust a Blu-ray if SONY still today manifactures defectous DVD burners like its DRU and DRX line of products. They are not able to manifacture good DVDs and you are expecting them to jump on Blu-ray. :(
Beside take a look at their DVD burners prices and quality. You can find a lot of benchmarks on line that put SONY products on the end or behind the list.

Of course Sony capitulated to greater content hindrance; it's their thing!

I personally think iHD will win, but on principle I hope BluRay flops like a fat kid into jello.

I think generally the hd dvd will probably come out on top of the blueray because of its name. General home users (such as my parents) had to pass up a very large VHS collection to move over to the new DVD format many years ago. Last thing they want to hear now is time to move on again. DVD is a household name and because of that alone I think it will drive across the line first

*I think generally the hd dvd will probably *come out on top of the blueray because of its *name. General home users (such as my parents) *had to pass up a very large VHS collection to *move over to the new DVD format many years *ago. Last thing they want to hear now is time *to move on again. DVD is a household name and *because of that alone I think it will drive *across the line first.

The most sensible and down to earth comments I,ve heard in this whole argument.All the empty headed allegiances and the are'nt I clever technical bull crap will be totally irrelevant in the end.No one who contributes to this thread will have one microgram of influence in deciding who will win this battle.
The reason as to who will win will be straightforward and as always decided by the mass consumer.Blu-ray has a nice name ,it will come in an appealing blue box (do people prefer red or blue best).You never know it could be a fctor.HD-DVD has its name,something that punters are familiar with and if they get both an SD version and a future proof HD-DVD version on a dual layer or two disc issue for the same price..very persuasive no.
Then again Blu-ray is someting new.Maybe Blu-rays very newness will convince of its superior quality.High Defintion is next gen,so surely it must be different.Perhaps, who knows?
Something simple like this,maybe something none of us has thought of will be the deciding factor.
If I must commit myself to a winner,and I suppose I must, what would I predict?

Well the first thing I would say is that I don't think the XBOX 360 or the PS3 will be a decisive issue.Perhaps this is a rash statement,but my reasoning is sound if maybe presumptious,but here it is anyway.Consoles are supported generally by younger people,who prefer more modern films.The studios want to exploit ther back catalogues,therefore owners of consoles won't watch them.The association of a console is also with games not movies (obvious statement I know ,but important,perhaps very important)remember that simple fact could make all the difference.Blu-ray has the advantage of the glamour product.Rightly or wrongly it rules the higher technical ground,but is that ground built on sand or solid foundations.All the evidence points to it having problems,but it will probably get things right in the end.Again time could be critical.
I'm not points scoring.There is no fanfare of trumpets (well not from me)but logically I think HD-DVD will quite likely prevail.My reasoning is not to do with anything connected to the two competing formats,but with something else far more unmistakeable and irresistable "HD-TV,HD-COMPLIANT,HD-READY,HDMI,GET READY FOR HD" you name it.The buzz word is HD,and HD-DVD is the reassuring link that will immediately register with everyone who wont be reading this thread.
The drive will be on to sell HD-TV's and given that the vast majority of counter shovellers in the vast majority big chain stores selling HD-TV's will drive the HD screen push how confident do you feel they will be able persuade Mr and Mrs Bloggs to buy into Blu-ray.
Remember a trickle will suddenly turn to a gush and a gush to a tide.Once the momentum is started nothing will stop it.The instant HD-DVD looks like its going to take the lead the race is over and everyone climbs aboard.
Its just my view,and if I'm wrong it won't really matter anyway,because all of us will buy HD on what ever format triumphantly lines the shelves.

If you buy a blu-ray PS3 why would you buy a HD-DVD player, people will wait until one of the formats comes out on top, catch 22 for HD-DVD they lose market with every console sold.

Hmm...32 comments...I don't think I'll read those.

Hey everyone, just be glad about something...for Blu-ray, while the disc is spinning up the Java Runtime Environment will be loading in the background. :P

I think Java would probably have more possibilities, though also more potential exploits. But...hey, it's MS making(or at least backing) iHD right, so who knows?

Did you read the new study where Linux had four times the exploits as Windows?

Just goes to show, Microsoft is not as vulnerable as you think. More people just go for their problems since it's more popular.

Did you read any of the comments? Linux has half the exploits of WInodws, and all of them are useless to a hacker.

Anyway... I don't see what Java has to do with these DVDs, but I can tell you... I'm not getting either of them.

No, Linux has way more exploits and holes. The only problem is that hackers aren't wasting their time, because only 10% of the market of computers use Linux.

If you hit Windows, the OS that is the most commom, it will affect more people.

Both of you are spitting BS back and forth.

Windows has exploits that affect Users, and a whole ton of critical ones that affect people logged in as Admins.

Linux forces you to login as a lesser privilaged user, thus making it more secure and less vulnerable(even if it has tons more exploits).

So basically...if you're not a fool and actually do what you're supposed to(like Linux forces you to) then you have better chances of being secure.

It all depends how you read into it. Take your pick:

A) It shows that MS discovered less exploits than the opensource community of skilled programmers discovered.

B) It shows that Linux is less secure because it has more holes.

C) It shows that despite the count of linux exploits, MS ones are 10x as severe.

Everyone came out of that article with different opinions.

If you even bothered to know something about the BluRay spec, (or hell, if you even bothered to read this article) you'd know that the menuing system for BluRay is driven by a European derivative of Java called JEM.

Meanwhile, the ECMA standard for Dynamic HTML (DHTML) is what is used for iHD, the menuing system in HD-DVD.

Off topic, but Linux is doing the right thing, WIndows is doing the wrong thing, in regards to how users are managed.

Users who run an OS as Admin are IDIOTS. and yes, I say this all the time to everyone I know that does it.

Ah. I'm not interested in BluRay spec s***. I'm not buying one. My family isn't buying one.

and I know what DHTML Is. I personally don't see whats wrong with the way things work currently. Works for me.

ignorance

The only reason people thing Windows has more of the market, is because Linux users don't BUY their software, so how does the statistic companies know who is using what? Mac and Windows, Maybe. Linux, freebsd, etc, no.

And FYI, my computer still has my credit/debit/atm card information on them... including my netbanking URL/account code/security code on it... so, regardless of OS, my computer should still be a target.

PS. Yes, I know keeping this info on my computer is stupid... but it's also VERY easy to forget the info :(

I think it's crazy to wait around for B.ray and HD DVD to enjoy movies that we have seen a million times on VHS and DVD! I cant wait!!

I think one thing that we should all keep in mind is the bottom line. Sure it's nice to have the shizznitz of home theatre, but in reality the majority of folks cannot afford the high-end stuff.

I'm not sure Blueray could even be considored high-end, but it surely does couple a high-end price tag.

Blueray is more than tripple the price of the $499 unit yet doesn't have any real benefits beyond space, and even then it was conceded that most titles wont go past 25GB.

Price folks, price.. the features don't justify Blueray's price.

But, but, Betamax is superior to VHS!

$500 for the cheapest, who knows how much for the discs, another 2/3/4 months at least before we even see one-- by next Xmas how many titles planned? I sure as heck will not have a need for hd or blue ray by the time holographic starts to rumble. And for those capacities(and gbps transfer speeds especially) i will be very willing to shell out big bucks. For the announced specs of either camp now, i'd rather get another computer or two at those prices.

The only chance either camp has is to get the masses on board now(or whenever this vaporware finally appears: wouldn't surprise me if further delays see initial release pushed back to 2007)-- you do that with pricepoints under $200, and more importantly: very cheap prices for blank re-writeable discs: to get the masses using them for their storage needs now.

horsecharles, I have never had anything bad t say to you until now. HD DVD already has 28 good titles where as Blu-Ray has 18 or was it 8, not sure, but ti was much less. They have stated that there are already that will be released when the players are ready. Maybe you haven't been reading, that is ok, but catch up real fast please.

Yeah, holographic storage. HD-DVD or Blu-Ray will be ARCANE by the time holographic storage becomes cheap and practical.

Well yeah, and holographic storage will be arcane by the time something comes along and replaces it like maybe those data rods from Star Trek. Either way that stuff is a LONG way off still. Besides I don't see the need for holographic storage for movies which is mainly what we're talking about here. My prediction is that DVD will be around for many years to come, slowly being replaced by HD-DVD as time goes by. They still released movies on Laserdisc until 2001 after all. :)

If you buy SONY and you'll pay for the four letters, annoying DRM, proprietry accessories (sony memory stick), helping the RIAA (they are a member), research and implementation of technology that will hinder you enjoying their product (rootkits, more DRM).

Its a PHONY - you pay more.

I hate Sony as much as anyone, but don't just make crap up. DRM will be in both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray and probably equally annoying. I don't know what memory stick has to do with a blu-ray player. As far as rootkits... They do not need a rootkit in THEIR OWN PRODUCT. I understand people who boycott Sony products, but it is ridiculous to say that Sony will put bad things in their new technology that don't even make sense.

"They do not need a rootkit in THEIR OWN PRODUCT."

Uh, whose product do you think all those CD's were?

I meant installed on their own product, as in they didn't make Windows.

I shudder to think what it would be like if they did make Windows, and yes they will certainly install it on their own products. Unlike with Windows there will be no one to stop them.

Sony is going to be the victor. I dont care what Toshiba says.People are fascinated with the concept of more, even though you dont use it. Also PS3 is enough backing for the Blu-ray format.

And most likely in the end there are going to be players that read/write in both formats.So there is not going to be much of a difference. Both of these companies are stupid.Because they are competting for the same thing and it will cause problems,and also confuse people who dont know much about these two Dvd formats.
Its probably going to end up like javascript(were all browsers use the w3c stand point).

Dude, Sony has alway sucked, and everyone of my customers KNOW it. Sony will lose as they always do.

Just like they were the victor with Betamax, Minidisc, etc? Sure, keep dreaming. Players that read and write both formats would be more prone to failure being needlessly complicated and more expensive. We DO NOT NEED two formats, at all.

wish you were right, get to you at the end of 2006 thought :)))

"Knox said that Blu-ray could see a much higher production flaw rate," Quantity still has not yet proven it's self and any company that thinks it does is LOST and will not get my business!!! I am not one for wasting my money on crap that is GOING to break in in less than a year even if it is from a small scratch. Sony Needs to get real about this issue!

"Knox said that HD DVD can verify that every disc will play on every player, "

Sony Still has yet to be able to claim this!!!
Java is slow and over sized with to many people believing other. Java has never been anything more than slow and junky!( I use these word in the hope that the retards can understand).
"Knox highlighted the fact that of the American Film Institute's Top 100 movies, more than 60 were from studios supporting the HD DVD format, and a majority of the major-grossing films of the last three years were from those same studios. HD DVD has focused on quality, not quantity, Knox said." Supports what I said 100%.

"Knox said Fox was unhappy with the decision to let consumers watch movies where they please using Mandatory Managed Copy. Managed Copy has become a contentious point in the next-generation DVD battle, with HP demanding that Blu-ray require the technology on all discs. However, as Fox's proprietary DRM will run after AACS, the studio could theoretically restrict such portability."
FOX can go to hell, I will never accept what they want and I will stop watching movies 100% if I have to follow their rules. I mean it's entertainment not a for of life such as food or water. "F" you Fox!

"HD DVD, meanwhile, is launching its first players in March. Toshiba will bring two models to market with price points of $499 and $799 USD. The high-end model will feature improved output connections for home theater aficionados who have components systems."
Toshiba Still the leaders in DVD players, will tell you how it is. Sony has lost this last year, but they are from Japan , and think that they rule the world when they are lost and have been for the last 50 years.

"For the average consumer, with surround sound systems "from a box," the $499 HD DVD player will be sufficient, Knox said. Consumers will see the $499 models in stores such as Best Buy, while the $799 player will be available through specialty retailers where home theater buffs can additionally purchase high-end audio systems." Hmmmm, less that a 1/3 of Blu-Ray and it's still better than what we have now... Who wins??? HD-DVD. Sony needs to get a grip!!!

Flame if you want, but you will only show how stupid you are and that your are to sad to grow up. HD-DVD has vastly beaten Blu-Ray.

Now to add about the SONY Geek thing.. Sony has lost everything that anyone that has a 10% of a brain would buy. I feel that only the really stupid and the lost people would buy anything from Sony, EA, Pillsbury.

Sorry for any spelling errors, but it happpens and I don't really care!

I've bought a few EA games mind you, and some Pillsbury cookies. :)

Never anything by Sony though.

It's all too reminiscent of the shortlived BetaMax vs. VCR battle of a generation ago, plus it appears to be developing into a no-brainer considering $499 for an HD-DVD player vs. $1,800 for Blu-Ray.

What geek would ever again buy something bearing the Sony logo. Microsoft - a collaborator, not competitor - characterised their CD copy protection scheme as a "virus" and, astoundlingly, Sony insists upon their intention, and right, to do it again.
Anyone who buys Sony blank media (where better place to distribute a virus), a Sony computer (no doubt, Sony's copy protection schemes are imbedded in the operating system and/or hardware and cripple their machines in ways that HP or Dell have not), or any other home electronics equipment that contains a microprocessor and might someday have to use a Sony support website (consider what an "important security update" from Sony might mean) places themselves at serious risk if it bears a Sony logo.
I will search out - and buy from - the developers and competitors who are most at odds with Sony and, therefore, least likely to cooperate with them.
Ironically, I have stopped buying Sony/EMI media disks and started bootlegging their content from friends who have put it through at least one analog generation. It is
Sony's corporate attitude that forces me do this even though I write software and guard it myself.

Sony's format is superior to HD-DVD. But this will go the way Beta Did Against VHS unfortunately. These Japs know wtf they're doing believe me. All those "problems" they speak about "plauging" Blu-Ray will be ironed out AND THEN SOME but the time Sony's finished with them.

But like I said. Blu-Ray will die out because of many reasons including but not limited to their recent disgusting and repulsive actions on the "copy protection" (aka rootkit on your home machine) front. Bad mistakes Sony, and now you will pay. (BTW PS3 is still monumentally superior to X-BOX 360 from a technological standpoint).

As for copy-protection, it doesn't exist. No really I mean that. There is no such thing as copy-protection as THEY define it. Only "copy-mitigation" as it SHOULD be defined. And so thus, no one should be worried about drawbacks like this because it'll be broken. History repeats itself over and over and over.. Why don't they ever learn? :/

"Sony's format is superior to HD-DVD" No it's not! It is full of crap and so are you. Grow up and join the real world. "Bad mistakes Sony, and now you will pay. (BTW PS3 is still monumentally superior to X-BOX 360 from a technological standpoint)." WTF are you talking about? Get a grip!!!

"As for copy-protection, it doesn't exist. No, really I mean that." I agree with this. Everyone with half and IQ Point can get around this.

Superior? Did you even read the article? It's inferior in every way! Not only that but it's more than twice the cost. The only "advantage" they can claim to have is a larger size which both sides have already admitted is meaningless when it comes to movies. So we have an expensive and fragile format loaded with Fox's own overly-restrictive DRM, all from none other than Sony, the kings of proprietary over priced failed formats. As for the PS3 it's a game console so it doesn't mean jack. It plays games, it doesn't matter what they are on, every console uses a proprietary format. Oh let me guess, everyone in the world is going to buy a PS3 to watch movies on? Yeah right. As far as the next movie format goes Blu-Ray is dead on arrival.

i was on Sony side till Pioneer and samsaung ( i think) announcned a 1, 800 and 1,00 price tag respectivley, ( got this word from reading alot.. lol).
Anyways I was really cheering for Sony to win the War but consumers are not going to pay double if Toshiba offers similar product.
Sorry Sony, looks like another betamax loose but Ps3 will definitly win the Console war. That, im still confident on.. arent u?

"Ps3 will definitly win the Console war.

Based on what? They haven't even showed off a real unit yet, just words on paper. Meanwhile the 360 has a healthy head start and the Revolution will be launching soon with actual advancements other than the same old slop with prettier graphics. There are rumours the PS3 won't be out before the end of this year if not 2007. I'm sure the Sony fanboys will buy it but I wouldn't call it the winner of anything yet. Personally I wouldn't have one of them in my house after all that Sony has done.

BetaMax was superior to VHS, though Sony still lost way back then.

Sony are too controlling imho, they could of dominated with minidisc a few years ago if they didn't have such ridiculous restrictions.

Sony thinks they have every right to rule the world and that they do. The fact is they suck and everything they have ever made has had more problems than anything I have ever tried to use. SONY is a junk company that believes that if they make more they will win and it just doesn't work that way!

Thank you, brother!!! Good post!!!

To those who think HD-DVD is superior, using more compression is NOT superior to using more capacity in terms of quality, at least if it's lossy. Compression is something that should not be used unless it is absolutely necessary.

The Nintendo Revolution superior to PS3? Yeah right. Just like the Nintendo Gamecube was superior to the PS2. Why have animated, blocky graphics when you can have near cinematic quality graphics on PS3, PS2 or Xbox 360. Besides Nintendo uses propietary 12cm media. I would say using propietary DRM on Blu-Ray isn't much worse than Nintendo's choice of using a propietary media.

From the article:

"Through the use of better codec technology, such space is not actually needed for high-definition movies. In fact, Blu-ray admitted to BetaNews that most discs won't go beyond the 25GB mark."

So what were you going on about again?

-----------------------------------------

"Why have animated, blocky graphics"

Blocky graphics? You've never even played a Gamecube have you? Resident Evil 4 on the GC is probably one of the best looking games of all time. As for the bit about proprietary 12cm discs, you do realize that's a standard size don't you. Ever wonder why your CD-ROM tray has that smaller indention in it? No, the GC discs are not readable on other platforms but what difference does that make? It's not like you would be able to play Gamecube games in your PS2 anyway. I'm no huge Nintendo fan, don't own any console myself, and this is really getting off topic but to say the piece of crap Playstation 2 has better graphics than the Gamecube or any other current console one would have to be a rabid Playstation fanboy.

G'night fanboy.

Thanks :)

Thank god someone said it. Playstation graphics are terrible.

"The Nintendo Revolution superior to PS3? Yeah right."

I don't believe anyone claimed that the Nintendo Revolution would be superior to the PS3... just that the Revolution would be shipping in the near future, possibly before the PS3.

Right now only people want a hd-dvd or blueray will be people with hd tv's others wont care for them at first but im guessing they will phase out the dvd like they have done vhs to make us upgrade to them i cant see paying that extra price to get a blueray but if you look at the long run it might be worth it when they have stuff out that will take up the full disk Or even if they werent cheap asses they could bundle mutiple movies on 1 dvd.

I wasn't saying that a 12cm disc size is nonstandard. I was commenting about the fact that Nintendo has decided not to at least use an industry standard format like the DVD disc on the Revolution.

Most games for the PS2 have near cinematic quality graphics. This is rare on the Gamecube. The Gamecube's graphics for the most part are not much better than the Nintendo 64's.

The only reason people hate the Playstation 3 or 2 is because they are made by a company that happens to have the name Sony. Not because they have inferior performance compared to the Xbox 360, Gamecube or original Xbox (which they don't).

There is a good reason the PS2 has been the best selling console and the PS3 will probably continue this trend.

I don't know if you were all hd-dvd fanboys before reading this "report" from Toshiba's own representative, but you might want to take it with a grain of salt. I guarantee that blu-ray will not be three times the price, but it will be more expensive. The $1000 Samsung blu-ray player is on par with the $700 Toshiba hd-dvd unit, not their $500 entry level unit. The $1800 Pioneer bd player is from their Elite series, so this is more than likely a high end reference piece, as their current high end DVD player is the DV-79 which goes for $999. Toshiba's only hope for hd-dvd is to sell their players below cost, pushing the inferior format on consumers who generally buy the cheaper product. Don't forget the fact that Blu-ray has more movie studio support meaning more titles across the board, in addition to the instant installed base they will gain by having a bd player in every PS3 sold.
Just don't be so quick to judge, we do still have 3-4 months to decide until either format comes to market, for you early adopters.

Disc players (HD-DVD or Blue-Ray) and game consoles cater to different users. Yes, only those with HD TVs need the new players. If prices are attractive enough, a HD-DVD for movies and another PS2 (or PS3?) for games is most likely. Otherwise, how can you watch a movie and play games at the same time?

i can't speak for everyone, but i only have 1 tv in any one place, and since i can only be in one place, the requirement to watch a movie and play a games console has never presented me with a problem...

Sony's format is superior, but will DIE anyway. Those are the 2 facts. Period. Sorry to be the black-sheep here guys in an obvious pasture of "normal" sheep but when you're right your right.

Will Sony win the format-war? No. Is what they're doing with the DRM crap ok? No. Is the price of their sh*t cheap? No. Is their offering currently without "issues"? No.

Is their technology superior though? Yes.

HD-DVD will win though so stop b****ing I gave you what you wanted. And as for the article, don't believe everything you read.

Most homes have more than one TV. I believe his point was what happens when someone else in your house wants to watch a movie while you are playing Dance Dance Revolution 17?

"Most games for the PS2 have near cinematic quality graphics."

Sorry but the PS2 has the worst graphics of it's generation.

"The only reason people hate the Playstation 3 or 2 is because they are made by a company that happens to have the name Sony."

No, most hate it because it's a very unreliable system with poor graphics compared to it's competitors.

"There is a good reason the PS2 has been the best selling console"

Marketing, fanboys, and Sony's grip on the titles that were released for it. This time around they aren't going to have the advantage of all those "exclusives".

Sony is 0-4 in format launches. It is Sony's arrogance that kills them everytime. Yes I do believe that Blu-Ray is a better format, but as history has dictated, with Sony at the helm it will probably be 0-5 for the Blu-Ray team.
The DVD forum was esatblished long ago to stop future format wars. All the members of Blu-Ray are still existing members of the DVD forum. When the DVD Forum chose HD DVD as the new standard, Sony as usual stompped it's feet like a child and is creating a format war, thus the Blu-Ray forum was born. Sony has always been their way or the highway. There were many reasons the DVD forum chose HD DVD as the next format. Sony just does not care. It wants the whole pie to itself as usual. Hmmmm, Betamax, Mini Disc, 8mm, etc...............

actually Sony's 1-4. the Compact Disc.

but I root for HD-DVD, so yeah...I wish it's 1-5 soon.

Sony did not invent the CD, Philips did. It was based on the technology used in Laserdiscs. Sony did team up with them later and contributed some ideas and later released the first consumer CD player. The Red Book standard belongs to Philips though, so Sony is still 0-4. :)

All of those Final Fantasy games look so amazing on TV until you get them home and realize that they were just the cinematics and the rest is, well, less spectacular. At least the other consoles look a little closer to their commercials. Its all about the marketing and loyalty.

I was once a dedicated Nintendo guy and never touched Sega. All good things will eventually come to an end. I had a PSX and liked it, but I bought an Xbox and I enjoyed it 10x more than my friend enjoyed his PS2, he even played my Xbox more. Coming from a business perspective if Sony loses this battle, they are taking a huge hit with their PS3.

BluRay in every sense of the definition is an inferior specification in all areas except future storage capacity. It is true that their next gen discs and players will read formats at 50GB or higher, but this generation of media will be entirely 25GB only. But spec superiority/inferiority won't determine what standard is adopted.

What matters will be the balance of buyers & sellers. If there are high def buyers of a certain format's players, there will be sellers of content for that format. And if there is more quality content in a given format than another, that better supported format will encourage more buyers of players.

While the PS3 fanboys will try to fan the flames with their BluRay drive, I highly doubt that console adoption will drive high def DVD sales. People buy consoles to play games... not play DVDs. Consoles are rarely a home's primary DVD player.

No, what will drive a format's player purchase will be the cost. And Toshiba isn't "selling players below cost" as you purport - they don't need to. HD-DVD's economies of scale already make player & media production inexpensive. This is a fact that has been repeated over and over again throughout this debate. HD-DVD equipment and media production is based on the exact same manufacturing facilities as today's existing DVD manufacturing processes will very few changes.

Compare this to BluRay which essentially requires a complete retrofit of each manufacturing plant.

Combine this with the higher error and fault rate of BluRay equipment and media and you're naturally looking at a more expensive product due to higher manufacturing costs.

And I assume that you're quoting the news item at that ever-so-reliable source of media, The Register, for your information about Samsung's $1000 BD-P1000 BluRay player.
(http://www.theregister.c...5/samsung_blu-ray_first/) I find it interesting that you decided on your own to extrapolate their argument by saying that "the entry level BluRay player from Samsung would be on-par with the $700 high-end HD-DVD player from Toshiba" which is a complete fabrication.
The Samsung BluRay player has virtually the same functionality as the HD-A1, the entry level (READ: Low end) version of Toshiba's HD-DVD player.

The high end Toshiba player, the HD-XA1, features among other things, 4 DSP engines for individual audio channel management and control (for folks that want to consolidate the HD experience to a single interface)

I suggest you read Toshiba's announcement of the HD-A1 & HD-XA1 before making any other false statements.

Precisely. The availability of BluRay on the PS3 is not going to be a significant reason for people to purchase BluRay formatted movies. Take the Sony PSP and the UMD format. With over 13 million devices, you'd think UMD adoption would be skyrocketing if this were true.

Things like having discs available from retailers that, say, have two sides:
- 1 side with an HD-DVD movie
- 1 side with a conventional MPEG1 DVD movie on it
...to allow people to buy HD-DVD today, use the disc in their current players, and use it later with a NEW HD-DVD player when they buy one without sacrificing their movie investment... that's what will sway the balance.

This is something HD-DVD can do, and BluRay can't.

How is the PS2 unreliable? This game system has had very few manufacturer defects. If there have been any major defects they have not been made public. The Xbox 360 on the other hand is one of the most defective game consoles ever released. The console has serious problems freezing up and it also puts out so much heat that one company is developing a liquid cooling solution. Knowing IBM, the CPU in the Xbox 360 probably has a similar thermal profile to the PowerPC G5 used in Macs.

As for the graphics on the playable parts of PS2 games they are comparable to PC games that take full advantage of Microsoft DirectX 8.

sony own's phillips

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but one major thing HD-DVD has going for it is that it will be backwards compatible with current DVD's correct? Meaning you can buy an HD-DVD player and still be able to play all of your current DVD's on it. I doubt the Blu-ray players will be able to do that.

I believe they will both be backwards compatible and both will support up to 1080p.

"sony own's phillips"

I've tried looking all over for this. Are you sure about that statement?

...and yes Skyfrog is right "Sony did not invent the CD, Philips did"

No where on here:
http://www.philips.com/a...pany/history/index.html
Does it state Sony acquired Phillips.
Nor can I find anything regarding that on Sony's site. All I could find was:
http://www.sony.com/SCA/corporate.shtml
# Sony Electronics Inc.
# Sony Entertainment Inc.
* Sony Pictures Entertainment
* SONY BMG MUSIC ENTERTAINMENT (50% ownership)
* Sony/ATV Music Publishing (50% ownership)
# Sony Computer Entertainment America Inc.
# Sony DADC and Sony Entertainment Distribution
# Sony Connect Inc.
# Sony Plaza Public Arcade and Sony Wonder Technology Lab (New York)
# Metreon -- A Sony Entertainment Center (San Francisco)

None of which state Phillips.
The only major ties the two compaines have together is:
From Sony:
"co-developer of the CD, DVD, and Super Audio CD"
From PHillips:
"In 1997, in cooperation with several other companies - and building on the success of its Compact Disc technology (invented by Philips and jointly introduced with Sony) - it released what proved to be the fastest growing home electronics product in history: the DVD"

1969 Klass Compaan, a Dutch physicist comes up with the idea for the Compact Disc

1970 At Philips, Compaan and Pete Kramer complete a glass disc prototype and determine that a laser will be needed to read the information.

1972 Compaan and Kramer produce color prototype of this new compact disc technology

1978 Philips releases the video disc player

1980 Compact Disc standard proposed by Philips & Sony.

1981 Matsus***a accepts Compact Disc Standard
Digital Audio Disc Committee also accepts Compact Disc Standard.
Sharp achieves production of semiconductor laser.
Philips & Sony collaboration ends.

1982 Sony & Philips both have product ready to go.
Compact Disc Technology is introduced to Europe and Japan in the fall.

1983 Compact Disc Technology is introduced in the United States in the spring
The Compact Disc Group formed to help market.
CD-ROM Protoypes shown to public
30,000 Players sold in the U.S.
800,000 CD's sold in the U.S.

Please try at looking up statements like this before posting.
cheers

It's true that it's unfair to compare blu-ray (pioneer "high-end" player 1800$ ) and hd-dvd (toshiba 500$) prices. There is cheaper blu-ray player and it's coming from Samsung price is about 1000$. Still there's 500$ difference...

If I remember correctly soon to be realeased HD-DVD and Blu-ray
player's support 1080i output not 1080p (maybe pioneer has 1080p support).

PS3 should have
-1080p output
-2xHDMI
-6xUSB
-3xEthernet

Only 500$. Yeah right!!

Those specs will change...

What's good about HD-DVD is that you can have normal DVD version on one layer and a HD-DVD version on a second layer. It's great feature. You can buy one already for your DVD player and when you upgrade to HD-DVD you have the hd version.
This same feature is under development for BLu-ray

Where did you get that from? Sony does not own Philips.

well i have to admit that every thing is going for HD-DVD,

they have reliability,
proven reputation,
low cost conversion
backward compatibility

all in all, and i have said this before, blu ray technology is before it's time,

and many people may disagree, but the main concern what is not talked about much, and that is the hardware Companies, and the Media companies are seperate,

meaning that the hardware is developing way to fast, having advance tools is one thing, but if no one is skilled enough to use them then they become expendable

and the same applies to blu ray, cd manufacturers are up against real problems at the moment, they just can't keep up, blu ray demands to much, i really don't think the reliability is going to be any good unless blu ray stick to there original idea, and that was blu ray discs will come in cartridge format.

and then there's the cost to consider, all in all i feel hd-dvd will save hundred of millions as apose to the problems what are going to come with blue-ray

and don't get me wrong, i'm all for one when it comes to using the most advanced technology money can buy, but at what cost, because really what are we after all in all, thoery or fact, as in reliability or new,

because the history of man kind has shown that using the most advanced technology is not always the answer, and before it does become so, one needs to justify the means before the action, and stop me if i'm wrong, it's me and you who are paying for all this, that's right, all of us in this forum are paying for there mistakes, now me personally don't want to be the one paying for new technology to be developed,

and besides what about the new compression formats, AVC has unpresedented abilities, i don't think hardware is the answer, compression is the way forward and i have said this many times before,

hardware should be a tool not the answer, compression is used in lets see, data,pictures,music,text,graphics,sound, need i go on, i belive the hardware market should slow down, and allow other sections to catch up, because i still can't get 16x dvd -/+R from maplins (a retail store here in england),
and let this new AVC (MPEG4) kick a** as it has been, one thing escapes me is the fact, just as we need a new storage format, along comes better video compression with the answer, but everybody ignores this fact and still insists on the most advanced technology,

i can see now why the human race makes nuclear missiles (Politics aside) even though we don't need them, there great, there powerful, and they can destroy at a push of a button, the human race has so much to learn, we always feel we need (deserve) the best to hell with the costs. baffles me.

any way to sum up, i feel that one day blu ray will be needed for sure, but i just don't think it's today, nor do i think i will be the case for several years (unless they could bring out a blu ray burner of course, then this would change everything, but i don't feel there will be a blu ray burner for a long time to com, and even when it does appear, how long seriously will it take to burn a whole disc,

no, like with my music, and pictures, and my files, i will always be using the most advanced compression technologies availible, and you know why, because software can be corrected with a simple patch, hardware if designed flawed (Which every playstation released so far have been), well it's to late, it's already sitting in your house, and paid for once again by who, oh year us mugs,

sorry to go on, but with all the posts above, not one person has tried to rasionlized this whole technology propaganzer, and i feel a lot of you are thinking that hardware im more important than software, your mistaken, software is far more important that hardware, nearly every blu ray burner out there are just dead hardware, until they are flashed with some firmware there all useless, and neither blu ray or HD dvd can do anything until the AACS copy protection is ready, and the demands on this being 110% secured is most parramount, no film company wants to see this technology cracked again ;-) (don't go to far jon)

this also applies to games, i feel that graphic cards are advancing quicker then software programmers can keep up, ecspecially physics engines, they are falling way behind, but i'm getting of topic though, as this is another story

any way, this is my first post for the new year, just had a baby, been very hectic,

happy new year to you all!

Sorry that is sheer bollocks - Phillips's parent company is publicly traded in the Netherlands and, I think, in New York.

You people are deluded fools!!!

Do you NOT understand that the ONLY way to put an SD DVD version of a movie on an HD-DVD is by reducing the bit-rate of a normal SD-DVD by 50%!!

Normal DVD's are dual-layer for a reason.
One layer therefore equals half the picture and sound quality!!!

So many biased opinions in these replies...

For all those that contest that Blu-ray will likely be defective, twice as expensive, and less compatable with DVD, you are deluding yourselves. Do you really think all of the backers of Blu-ray are hedging their bets on a technology that is inferior and defective? The article above is a very biased opinion from a source that has a vested interest in the success of HD-DVD. The hardware costs of
Blu-ray are not siginifantly higher than HD-DVD. The initial cost for producing the media is higher though. And to assume that shipping millions of PS3s, regardless of your opinion of Sony or the system, will have no effect on the production of Blu-ray disks is also rediculous.
Now before you all write me off as a Blu-ray fanboy, note that I am only stating my disdain for the blind hatred that many of you are showing toward Blu-ray. HD-DVD is just as viable of a format and does have a slight initial cost advantage for media production.

The copy-protection schemes are the same for both HD formats and the extra copy protection being implemented for FOX is optional and is left up the studio to decide whether they wish to use it or not.

The specifications have already been argued by both sides in this forum and I don't feel the need to get into those. And really, they aren't relevant to the average consumer. Consumers want their product, they want it to work, and they want it to be simple, and they want it cheap. If you deliver on these four premises, you can guarentee it will be successful until something that delivers the product cheaper, simpler, better, and more reliable arrives.

I do not care which format wins. I just want my HD content to arrive soon and without any ambiguity as to its longevity in the market. Unforunately, since neither side seems to be relenting, and both products are going to be released by multiple manufacturers, this format war will likely not disapear. The advent of the Blu-ray/HD-DVD hybrid player will be the winner in this war.