RSSHD DVD and Blu-ray: Toward an Endgame
By Scott M. Fulton, III | Published September 26, 2007, 3:56 PM
In a recent survey of HDTV owners by NPD Group, a full 73% were satisfied with the picture quality provided by upconverted DVDs for them to become too interested in a high-definition disc player of either format. Other figures are equally shocking, suggesting that the high-def format war may already be over. BetaNews spoke at length with the NPD report's lead analyst, Ross Rubin.
If there were just one universally embraced format for high-definition video discs, it would most likely have been introduced just over two years ago, probably at the $1,200 price point. By the spring of 2006, the budget-priced versions would have appeared at around $699.
The video game console manufacturers would have been racing to be the first, and the best, to bring the format to market. Their competitive breakthroughs might have driven the stand-alone console price to $399. And today, we would have probably been trumpeting the entry of low-price manufacturers from China, ready to flood world markets with $150 models.
This is how it might have been. Unfortunately, groups of intellectual property rights holders with dueling portfolios have maintained the present state of stalemate between two high-def formats, Blu-ray and HD DVD, whose physical and technical distinctions from one another are perhaps notable, though often trivial.
We are well beyond the point in time where we should have been talking about the new, single high-def format eclipsing that critical juncture that marketers and analysts search for, that peak period when titles for high-def exceed those for first-generation DVD. Instead, we're still treating the owners of the first- and second-generation high-def consoles as early adopters, and every other customer as a potential market.
Among those early adopters, infighting remains fierce as they strive desperately to discover whatever new justification may remain, like shrinking mud puddles in a hot desert, for the investments they've already made. Their collective dissatisfaction is the clearest sign that the true potential for both formats has never been realized.
It is a sad end for a hopeful technology, perhaps the last generation of discs for distributing movies. However, it looks to be a long and dreary end, as the champions of both formats remain unwilling to concede any ground.
By any analyst's 2005 standards, neither HD DVD nor Blu-ray is the victor in this format war. Sure, Blu-ray may have sold the most movies for one stretch of months, and HD DVD may have one over one more studio that was on the fence. But like the incessant battle between "great taste" and "less filling," you start to get the feeling nobody ever devised this battle in such a way that it would end.
No one knows this feeling better than NPD's director of industry analysis for consumer electronics, Ross Rubin. According to his team's report released last week, 52% of consumers polled who already own HDTVs - just slightly more than half - knew high-definition players even existed. Among those, 11% had any intention of buying one in either or both formats before the holidays, while 62% said they're waiting for prices to fall.
But the incredible figure is this: A full 73% of HDTV owners claimed they're happy with the non-high-def DVD player they already have.
SCOTT FULTON, BetaNews: But both high-def formats supposedly have this higher level of interactivity with the viewer that a DVD doesn't have. Are you saying that consumers have rejected that, or are you saying that consumers don't understand that?
ROSS RUBIN: It's definitely a more nuanced value proposition. First, consumers care more about title availability than either of those formats. We've still got a ways to go before critical mass of titles are available on either or both formats in aggregate. And in terms of playback options, a lot of DVDs today are played in the car. There's a big market for portable DVD, players for rear seat entertainment, I see a lot of kid's titles being played that way. So it's another incentive to purchase standard definition DVDs. So these interactive extras, they're wonderful for the person or the customer who's a real aficionado of the genre, or really wants to know more details behind the production, but it's certainly further down the list of important features.
NPD calls it, "The High-Definition Content Conundrum:" the seemingly impossible outcome of all the press being given to both sides in the format war leading to a lack of consumer's knowledge about them. Only 29% of all poll respondents, including non-HDTV owners, said they had ever heard of HD DVD; a mere 20% had heard of Blu-ray.
It's the kind of data that would convince manufacturers not to try to build a dual-format player - the kind of device which many, including Rubin, have thought could bring the format war to an amicable conclusion.
ROSS RUBIN: Well, my prediction will come true. Already, if you count PC-based products, there are already multiple dual-format drives out in the marketplace. Or even specialty PCs that may have both drives embedded in them. But yes, the bigger news is that Samsung will be shipping a dual-format deck that supports both interactive standards [BD-J and HDi] and that's due by the end of the year.
Again, I think if the format war were really the major inhibitor at this point in the market, we'd see sales of those players really rocket to the top of the sales charts. Right now, they're sold at a significant premium to other devices on the market. So you've got the PS3 starting at $499, you've got HD DVD players now at $399, or in some places less. Pioneer and Sharp have their Blu-ray players at around $1,000. Sony will soon have a stand-alone deck at $499. So yea, you've got this LG device at over $1,000; the Samsung device, I think they're going to try to bring it in for $999...Figure around a thousand dollars for a dual-format deck at this point. That's a price point where the availability of titles today doesn't make the purchase worthwhile for most consumers.
However, as HDTV penetration continues to grow, and title availability continues to grow, and if neither group of studios will budge on supporting the other standard, for consumers who want to continue to purchase physical media - and it's a big market to replace, about an $8 billion DVD market in the US - that [dual-format] solution may have much broader appeal.
Next: What if dual-format can't reach the magical price point?
Word just in.
Sammsung have cancelled their 'high end' BDP2400 and their dual format BDP5000 is delayed (no date given for it's release as of yet).
http://www.highdefdigest...Dual-Format_Player/1020
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|let's see the Blu-ray shills respond to this one
(it's a real scary beauty, check out the future Blu-ray has in-store for us folks"......
"BD-MV playback at HD quality has very strict copy protection integrated and managed by the Advanced
Access Content System License Administrator (AACS LA), and software manufacturers are required to
include the AACS key management in the play back software.
These AACS play back keys are only valid for a predefined and limited period of time. Customers
generally have to buy new AACS keys every 15 months.
With the Plextor PX-B900A/T3KB the customer can playback BD movies produced until April 2009.
To play back movies produced after April 2009, the customer has to purchase a renewal of the key."
http://www.plextor.be/pr...sheets/Plextor_AACS.pdf
- Read that carefully and digest.
They are keeping very very quiet about the full implications of their DRM BS.
.....and for those shills here who want to pretend this is the same version of the AACS system as HD DVD uses then I challenge you to produce a similar warning in an official HD DVD document.
You can't cos it isn't.
HD DVD does not use the exact same AACS system.
It's just another very good reason to keep well away from BD.
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|Hey, HocusPokus, the "Blu-ray shills" response to your scare-mongering is to point out that HD DVD uses the *exact same AACS technology*. If Blu-ray keys have to be renewed so will HD DVD keys.
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|Sorry, Hocus, you're wrong. Blu-ray and HD DVD have both signed up to almost identical AACS terms, especially involving key revocation and such. Blu-ray adds BD+ and BD-ROM watermarking, neither of which are AACS technologies nor are related to what you've posted.
Just because none of the HD DVD companies have disclosed the information Plextor did doesn't mean they don't have the same process.
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|you guys are useless...
and ok...so you posted the HD-DVD has more movies available...fair enough...i can see where you got your numbers from (one of your links is dead btw)...but now explain BD's software sales lead even though they have sold more set top boxes, and have more content to offer...hmm...and don't use the PS3 argument because its stupid and not valid...
my Honda/Daewoo comparison is JUST like your argument...you said that Blu-ray only has a sales lead because of the PS3...and I say Honda only sells more cars because of the Accord...according to your logic they are both perfectly valid arguments...but both equally stupid...and the 360 add on...it DOESNT MATTER if there are less of them...its a the simple fact that HD-DVD is not selling as well as BD...period...
the whole problem with your arguments is nearly everything is based on your "more likely" stance...that crap doesn't hold water man...but ill pass you another shovel...the one your using to dig your hole is probably getting worn out by now....
about the underdog thing...again you posted a useless article and failed reading comprehension 101 at the same time...but you know that, so i don't need to point out your stupidity again...and about the one week thing...movies tend to be released on tuesdays no? well the after the 18th there is only 1 tuesday left in the week...therefore my comment...
and now onto the rest...
even though you have no valid counter argument to my comments about the rest of the electronics industry i will still respond to what you said...
TV's without HDMI are def. a valid point here...HDMI allows for the transfer of 1080p video, and uncompressed audio over the same digital cable...I would say this is an advantage to anyone who has it...or what about the people who have HDMI but not HDMI 1.3 support...where are your posts attacking TV manufacturers for not implementing these things from the get go?...
and about the audio receivers...it doesn't matter that the receiver was not advertised to do something it cannot...the PS3 or any blu-ray player for that matter are not advertised as being able to support anything other than whats on the market right now...they play the movies...and will continue to play movies regardless of being able to take advantage of the newest features...Sony doesnt label the box as 1.1 compliant when its not...so audio receivers are the same ball game...if i spend $1000 on a receiver...and it doesnt have the capability to pass audio and video over HDMI or allow video upscaling...and then the next week a receiver comes out for $900 that does this...should I be pissed at the manufacturer? No, of course not...again, its the price you pay for being an early adopter...
and again...you assume the 51GB disc's will work...yet nail BD "shills" for assuming that BD players can be updated via firmware...you're in the same boat...really just hoping your assumptions are true...
BD is not piggy backing on a game console...its more a situation where a game console happened to be the cheapest and most advanced BD player on the market at the time...at the PS3's launch...why pay $900 for a BD player when you could get a more advanced BD player and a next gen gaming console for $600...no contest there if you ask me...not to mention that from day 1 the PS3 has not only been marketed as a gaming console but as a blu-ray player therefore making it more likely for consumers to make that purchase than it was for say someone to make an original xbox or ps3 their sole dvd player. Those were gaming consoles with DVD playback...the PS3 is being marketed as a home theater centerpiece...not just a gaming console with BD playback...
720p/1080i TV's sure do have a problem with 1080p signals...they can't play them...
and you mention that they will still have playback...SO WILL THE BD PLAYERS...they just wont be able to use the newer features on the disc's (unless somehow BD finds a way around it)...
this is a useless argument...because you cannot see that your arguments have very little validity...i don't think ill be responding to this anymore...so see ya
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|"you guys are useless..."
- But not so "useless" as to be unable to back up what I said.
"and ok...so you posted the HD-DVD has more movies available...fair enough"
- So I take it we can at least agree on that one?
"(one of your links is dead btw)"
- Sadly it happens from time to time, it's now fixed, thanks for letting me know.
http://forums.highdefdig...d.php?p=45960#post45960
"but now explain BD's software sales lead even though they have sold more set top boxes, and have more content to offer...hmm...and don't use the PS3 argument because its stupid and not valid
- Of course it's valid.
Without PS3 Blu-ray has nothing.
There are (depending on who you believe) 4, 5 or 6 million PS3s sold.
It doesn't take a huge fraction of that number to buy BD movies to produce the 'lead' we have seen & can still see.
But it's a shrinking lead (cos as HD DVD stand-alones grow their higher attachment rates come into play) and effectively being a 'on-hit-wonder' BD has shot it's bolt & hasn't got another 'PS3' to rely upon.
Unfortunately for the Blu-ray gang the PS3 game console really is being used just for games a damned sight more than they counted on.
PS3 is a torjan horse but not as good a one as the BD crew imagined.
"my Honda/Daewoo comparison is JUST like your argument"
- No it isn't.
"you said that Blu-ray only has a sales lead because of the PS3...and I say Honda only sells more cars because of the Accord"
- Er no.
The Accord isn't also a guaranteed high selling 'something else' in the way that the PS3 was always guaranteed to be a multi-million unit selling game console - that also can play BD movies.
The analogy doesn't hold.
"...according to your logic they are both perfectly valid arguments...but both equally stupid!"
- Er no, see above.
You're just confusing yourself now.
"and the 360 add on...it DOESNT MATTER if there are less of them...its a the simple fact that HD-DVD is not selling as well as BD...period".
- Actually you asked why "the same doesn't hold true for owners of the XBox 360".
It does in the sense that it is also a game console.
The only reason I made the point about it selling less is that clearly the younger demographic (that equally would apply to the XBox 360) has got to have a lesser impact on the HD DVD side of things because there are less of them.
Sorry if that was not clear and obvious to you, I thought it was.
"the whole problem with your arguments is nearly everything is based on your "more likely" stance."
- Er no.
In terms of a difference that Neilson is missing between walk-in store sales numbers verses on-line sales numbers favouring one side or the other it does.....and it's obvious to anyone who gives this a seconds thought too.
It simply a fact that Neilson stats don't take account of on-line sales, there's nothing 'more likely' about it.
"but ill pass you another shovel...the one your using to dig your hole is probably getting worn out by now."
- Er no; you're the one trying to make claims about what it was I said when I did no such thing
(for instance you tried to say that I had said only kiddies have the PS3 when I said no such thing).
You keep digging tho.
"about the underdog thing...again you posted a useless article and failed reading comprehension 101 at the same time...but you know that, so i don't need to point out your stupidity again...and about the one week thing...movies tend to be released on tuesdays no? well the after the 18th there is only 1 tuesday left in the week...therefore my comment..."
- Blah blah blah.
Petty insult upon rhetoric upon BS.
"even though you have no valid counter argument to my comments about the rest of the electronics industry i will still respond to what you said."
- No.
You a fool desperately trying to conjure up parallels with other other parts of the CE arena and not one of them is a comparable example.
Better luck next time.
"TV's without HDMI are def. a valid point here"
- A high def TV sold without HDMI would have never been advertised implying it would have the benefits of HDMI.
"and about the audio receivers".
- Show me the audio receiver where the advertising implies it will have the advanced features only later receivers could possibly have and I'll conceed the point.
"the PS3 or any blu-ray player for that matter are not advertised as being able to support anything other than whats on the market right now."
- BS
'Advanced features' are a part of the Blu-ray claims (but you have to look very very closely to pick out the very small print that makes the excuses).
"and again...you assume the 51GB disc's will work."
- I have ever reason to expect them to.
Triple layer - like HDi - has been a part of the HD DVD spec since day 1.
"yet nail BD "shills" for assuming that BD players can be updated via firmware...you're in the same boat...really just hoping your assumptions are true".
- No.
It's one thing to know for a fact that triple layering - like HDi - was always part of the HD DVD specs from day 1, which is completely true.
It's quite another to see the Blu-ray shills pretending and/or lying about how you can 'firmware' secondary video decoders or additional memory.
Either you can see this or you can't......and some prefer to pretend not to see it.
"BD is not piggy backing on a game console."
- No. Wrong.
That is exactly what happened and we have a public quote from a Sony exec to show that was their clear intent all along.
From The Guardian, technology section, Thursday March 29 2007
"And the PS3 is going to help us do the job ... Potentially, we'll have 10 times more [Blu-ray] players [in the form of PS3s] out there by the end of the year."
http://www.guardian.co.u...29/sonyplaystation.sony
"its more a situation where a game console happened to be the cheapest and most advanced BD player on the market at the time."
- It a question of why they put a BD player in the PS3 in the first place.
Either you believe the BS & hype or you can believe what the Sony execs later said themselves.
"720p/1080i TV's sure do have a problem with 1080p signals...they can't play them."
- .....and don't give problems to or deny the viewer the content because of it.
"and you mention that they will still have playback...SO WILL THE BD PLAYERS"
- Well Denon say they are still "working very hard" at getting 'profile 1.0' discs and players to work properly with 'profile 1.1' and 'profile 2.0' players and discs.
Quite how good these players remain at BD playback remains to be seen......but it's a fairly good guess that they are having serious problems with it becuase they have postponed it's introduction......what.....4 or 5 times so far?
"they just wont be able to use the newer features on the disc's (unless somehow BD finds a way around it)"
- Now who's guessing?
"im having fun".
- Sure you are.
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|You know, seriously... not that you may care, but I actually respect you. :)
As far as most of the Blu-ray supporters on this site go, you seem to be one of the rare exceptions, in the sense that you are actually taking the time to debate the finer points... once the mud-slinging and name-calling is over with (of which most everyone here is guilty of occasionally, including myself).
I shall try my best to refrain from personal attacks from now on (even though it's against forum rules in the first place, everyone slips). :)
Sad that you're no longer commenting on this particular topic. I just got home from work and got caught up on you two going at it all day. You both brought up really good points and gave good examples of what you were trying to explain, and I was actually enjoying it. I miss that. It's usually the "You're an idiot! Prove it!" type of back-and-forth responses that I've found are quite easy to get sucked in to. Oh well.
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|I would have to agree yountmj, a reasonable debate (with the occasional barb, true......but that's hardly going to curl anyone's teeth around here!).
Not the usual and mores the pity for it.
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|First, I question where blu-ray would be today without the PS3. If game consoles had nothing to do with HD DVD or Blu-ray, I think it would be much closer and likely HD DVD would be in the lead. So we can and should point to the PS3 as why Blu-ray is in the lead.
I will ask this question though - With all the good news for blu-ray (prior to Paramount announcement), why did blu-ray not get a big gain over HD DVD? Target, Blockbuster..etc were all big announcements, yet the ratio pretty much stayed 2:1 in favor of blu-ray.
Now.. on to triple layer and profiles. From everything that I've seen, it appears the triple layer HD DVD's will work in existing players. There's not much evidence to prove either way right now, except for what Toshiba and others are saying.
With the profiles, its a different story. You can cleary look at what each profile requires and see that most stand alone blu-ray players do not have the necessary hardware to support it. Such as the space requirement and others. PS3 is likely the only player that can be upgraded. I think this is a big downside to blu-ray today. Maybe not for the early adopters, but certainly for a new consumer buying it today, not knowing their kids won't be able to enjoy the interactive features on future discs.
Final thought - I see the big advantages to blu-ray being its disc size in the data world. For High Def Movies, it just hasn't proven to be the case. HD DVD movies look amazing and if single sided combos (or twins as they are called) are viable, then I see HD DVD as being the better format to replace DVD. And I think more important than all the specs everyone talks about are which format can easily replace DVD. This would be HD DVD. Blu-ray boasts better bitrates, larger space, which can lead to uncompressed audio..etc, but these are not benefits that most people will enjoy. I'd speculate that maybe 5% of all consumers might have the equipment that would allow them to hear a difference in uncompressed vs. DD+ and I'd say far fewer could see a difference between a HD DVD and Blu-ray both encoded at their highest bitrate. Even audio experts (you know, the guys that do this for a living and hear the masters, let alone the uncompressed copies), have stated they can't tell the difference in most cases between DD+ and uncompressed.
I think the big key is that all of us that own one format or the other (or both as I do) really want all the movies in High Def. I have always believed that HD DVD provided the best way to do this since it is the most easily adopted by DVD owners.
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|Especially for all the Blu-ray shills to ponder.
"HD DVD offers the largest amount of actual available, exclusive and potential movie content."
Here's how, these are facts....
(and I've included those little links you Blu-ray shills love so much here) -
(bear in mind these numbers apply in the USA & they have yet to remove the Viacom/Paramount numbers)
http://www.blu-raystats.com/index.php
http://www.hddvdstats.com/index.php
Total available content -
Blu-ray 325
HD DVD 318
Total available exclusive content -
Blu-ray 195
HD DVD 187
Then remove from the Blu-ray total the number of supposedly 'exclusive Blu-ray titles' which are nothing of the sort and which can be sourced on HD DVD internationally cos HD DVD is region-free everytime
See here - http://areahd.dvdtiefpreise.com/?p=109
and here - http://forums.highdefdig...d.php?p=45960#post45960
(link fixed)
(Over 60 titles, but call it 60 for ease of calculation)
This leaves us with -
Blu-ray genuinely exclusive titles = 135
HD DVD genuinely exclusive titles = 187.
(I have heard of 1 HD DVD exclusive available in Japan on Blu-ray - but it could have been photo-shopped, nothing like 60+ tho)
HD DVD has more exclusive content, by far
Then add those same 60 titles to the total number of titles available to HD DVD and
remove the 30 Paramount movies Blu-ray no longer has and the 3 Dreamworks titles
and we are left with -
Blu-ray available content = 292
HD DVD available content = 378.
HD DVD has more available content, by far
Actual available and exclusive content and by that measure HD DVD is clearly far ahead
(and with a further 120+ HD DVD movies just announced by Viacome/Paramount as they really start to ramp up production that can only grow).
.....and given the major and smaller independent studios using HD DVD (cos the costs are lower and replication is available as opposed to being choked with short supply & low availability with BD)
HD DVD also has the largest potential catalogue.
These are the facts that count -
HD DVD offers image and audio quality 2nd to none,
HD DVD has the most content,
HD DVD has the most exclusive content,
HD DVD has the most potential content,
HD DVD offers a proper range of spec & prices,
HD DVD has the lowest entry-level prices,
HD DVD has fully functioning advanced features,
HD DVD has a complete and functioning spec and
HD DVD's 'high end' players (ie the Toshiba HD XA2) are the same price as the under spec'd absolescent Blu-ray entry level players.
......oh, and lest we forget, HD DVD does not have the additional DRM sh*te that Blu-ray is attempting to foist on people
.....and HD DVD is not entirely dependent on a kiddies game console.
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|Thank you, yet again.
I never get tired of reading that. :)
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|Thank you very good great effort but they still will not understand.
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|Well the numbers get updated each time I post it so as of today those are the corect figures.
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|HD DVD add-on: $200 at time of purchase
Importing HD DVD's: Approximately $35 a piece
Watching my brother (A PS3/BR fanboy) brick in his pants when he realized Silent Hill, Ghost Rider, Fantastic Four, Bridge to Terrabithia, and T2 were on HD DVD: priceless
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|e-Knucks.
Good stuff. :)
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|I also love how its just kiddies that own PS3's or Blu-ray discs so they can't be buying online...but the same doesn't hold true for owners of the 360 add on buying HD-DVD's :::rolls eyes again:::
or the fact that just because the older more sophisticated HD-DVD owner has a credit card...therefore they will be buying all of their HD-DVD's online...give me a break!...if you can't show me any hard evidence of this (and you can't) then you can't use it as an argument...unless you want to continue to sound like an idiot...
How is the underdog thing a big deal?...its the LAST movie being released on blu-ray in 2007...its being released on December 18th!...That is ONE week before the end of 2007...that shows nothing...just that you are taking two pieces of bread and trying to pass it off as a sandwich...
your arguments against blu-ray hold little water...yes HD-DVD did the RIGHT thing by including this stuff in 1st gen players...but this is the price one pays for early adoption...you totally ignore the constant upgrades that go on in the HDTV world What are your feelings for those who have HDTV's without HDMI ports? should they be pissed off? or those with older TV's that just support 1080i but have to downscale 720p signals to SD resolutions...
or the audio world (receivers with new features are released weekly)
or the PC world (do i even need to explain that one?) and concentrate solely on this because of your blind hatred for Sony...its comical...go stare at your Bill Gates poster some more man....its sad...
what about Microsoft adding all sorts of new features to the xbox 360?...is it possible that they rushed an unfinished product to the market...and then over time have released new sku's with features they wanted all along (HDMI, bigger hard drives) and in turn screwing early adopters of their console...hmm...couldn't be...only Sony would do such a thing...
"HD DVD offers the largest amount of actual available, exclusive and potential movie content."
proof?....yeah....
and i love this argument...
".....oh and
" blu-ray is selling more than HD-DVD"?
That's totally down to the PS3, not actually 'Blu-ray' as such.
But HD DVD stand-alones are selling fast and that can only continue as prices fall ever-lower."
BAH! thats like saying Honda sells more cars than Daewoo ONLY because it has the Accord...or coke only sells better than pepsi because it tastes better!...
well christ...if that isn't the worst argument i've ever heard...lets see...sales numbers should be thrown out because its only because of the PS3...it can't be because upon release the PS3 was not only the cheapest, but most advanced BD player on the market...hmm...i think so...
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|"I also love how its just kiddies that own PS3's or Blu-ray discs so they can't be buying online...but the same doesn't hold true for owners of the 360 add on buying HD-DVD's"
- Do you have issues understanding the term "more likely"?
Where did I ever say "just" the kiddies own PS3s?
Comparisons with the XBox 360 HD DVD add-on tend to fail cos there are less of them, I'd have thought that much was obvious, shill.
"or the fact that just because the older more sophisticated HD-DVD owner has a credit card...therefore they will be buying all of their HD-DVD's online...give me a break!"
- There's that problem with the point about what is "more likely" again.
"...if you can't show me any hard evidence of this (and you can't) then you can't use it as an argument"
- An obvious truth remains an obvious truth.
It is undeniable that the PS3 has - overall - a younger demographic compared to the wider a/v market and that therefore it is highly likely that what I have said is correct.
"...unless you want to continue to sound like an idiot..."
- No, you're doing fine working away on that one yorself.
"How is the underdog thing a big deal?...its the LAST movie being released on blu-ray in 2007...its being released on December 18th!...That is ONE week before the end of 2007
- No it isn't.
Go look at a calander.
......then ask yourself where that supposedly big Blu-ray backers 2008 schedule is.
"your arguments against blu-ray hold little water"
- But plenty enough to get you with your panties in a major twist tho, eh?
" What are your feelings for those who have HDTV's without HDMI ports?"
- Er, no, what are you on about?
That's nothing like the same thing.
Those with a non-HDMI TV lose out on nothing ad their TV was never advertised as if they could enjoy something you had to have HDMI to enjoy.
"or those with older TV's that just support 1080i but have to downscale 720p signals to SD resolutions..."
- Again a laughably poor analogy.
Neither 720p nor 1080i have problems with a 1080p signal (no-one is broadcasting anyways) and 720p/1080i TVs do not stop the viewer seeing video/program content.
Nor does it lock up or cause major problems for their kit as 'profile 1.1' and 'profile 2.0' discs may well do on existing BD players.
"or the audio world (receivers with new features are released weekly)"
- You might have a point if the old receivers were advertised on the grounds that they might offer something they cannot.
Leave it out with the ill-fitting parallels, they're all so far just not applicable or similar at all.
"or the PC world (do i even need to explain that one?)"
- I'd love it if you did.
Just what in the PC do you imagine is a direct parallel to this and why?
"concentrate solely on this because of your blind hatred for Sony"
- No, I'll leave the feelings of emotion for CE corporations to you guys.
You can 'love' or 'hate' a CE companys all you like.
"go stare at your Bill Gates poster some more man....its sad"
- Naaa, what's sad is the way you invariably give yourself away and continually insist this is a PS3 v XBox360 & a Sony v Microsoft thing.
"what about Microsoft adding all sorts of new features to the xbox 360?"
- You know I could care less about your game consoles.
I'm into a/v, not computer games so mostly all that pro PS3 anti-XBox 360 stuff is just a bore to me.
"HD DVD offers the largest amount of actual available, exclusive and potential movie content."
- It does indeed and I have shown how several times here already.
But just for you.....
Enjoy -
Here's how, these are facts....
and I've included those little links you Blu-ray shills love so much here -
(and bear in mind these numbers apply in the USA & they have yet to remove the Viacom/Paramount numbers)
http://www.blu-raystats.com/index.php
http://www.hddvdstats.com/index.php
Total available content -
Blu-ray 325
HD DVD 318
Total available exclusive content -
Blu-ray 195
HD DVD 187
Then remove from the Blu-ray total the number of supposedly 'exclusive Blu-ray titles' which are nothing of the sort and which can be sourced on HD DVD internationally cos HD DVD is region-free everytime
See here - http://areahd.dvdtiefpreise.com/?p=109
and here - http://forums.highdefdig...d.php?p=45960#post45960
(link fixed)
(Over 60 titles, but call it 60 for ease of calculation)
This leaves us with -
Blu-ray genuinely exclusive titles = 135
HD DVD genuinely exclusive titles = 187.
(I have heard of 1 HD DVD exclusive available in Japan on Blu-ray - but it could have been photo-shopped, nothing like 60+ tho)
HD DVD has more exclusive content, by far
Then add those same 60 titles to the total number of titles available to HD DVD and
remove the 30 Paramount movies Blu-ray no longer has and the 3 Dreamworks titles
and we are left with -
Blu-ray available content = 292
HD DVD available content = 378.
HD DVD has more available content, by far
Stop trying to play stupid sad little pathetic number games with the number of studios - 'number of studios', ffs how ludicrous can you get - you're wrong on that anyways as has been pointed out.
The real point is content.
Actual available and exclusive content and by that measure HD DVD is clearly far ahead
(and with a further 120+ HD DVD movies just announced by Viacome/Paramount as they really start to ramp up production that can only grow).
.....and given the major and smaller independent studios using HD DVD (cos the costs are lower and replication is available as opposed to being choked with short supply & low availability with BD)
HD DVD also has the largest potential catalogue.
These are the facts that count -
HD DVD offers image and audio quality 2nd to none,
HD DVD has the most content,
HD DVD has the most exclusive content,
HD DVD has the most potential content,
HD DVD offers a proper range of spec & prices,
HD DVD has the lowest entry-level prices,
HD DVD has fully functioning advanced features,
HD DVD has a complete and functioning spec and
HD DVD's 'high end' players (ie the Toshiba HD XA2) are the same price as the under spec'd absolescent Blu-ray entry level players.
......oh, and lest we forget, HD DVD does not have the additional DRM sh*te that Blu-ray is attempting to foist on people
.....and HD DVD is not entirely dependent on a f*cking game console.
"proof?"
- I have provided the proof once again. Suck it up.
thats like saying Honda sells more cars than Daewoo ONLY because it has the Accord."
- Er no.
It's saying that piggy-backing on a game console makes the case a little different than if we were just discussing stand-alone players.
Obviously you also have trouble with this clearly different circumstance.
"sales numbers should be thrown out because its only because of the PS3."
- Where did I ever say that?
I have said that the PS3 gave Blu-ray a short-term (but actually deeply uinimpressive, considering the numbers sold) movie disc sales lead.
I have never said disregard those figures entirely because of the PS3.
But I have said taking account of how the truth is that Blu-ray = PS3 it is in a long-term sense a very weak base Blu-ray has built upon and one that will be over-taken and left trailing permanently as HD DVD sales numbers rise and rise
(as they are doing week in week out while Blu-ray's single 'card' the PS3 has been played and it now sells poorly and continues to push BD movies at a slow pace).
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|show me where I ever said that HD-DVD was an inferior product...I've NEVER used those words...
oh you know plenty of people who prefer HD-DVD? please...thats a real scientific answer...i can say i know plenty of people who prefer blu-ray (and at least I have software sales numbers to back that up!)
when we finally see the 51GB discs, or when any studio decides to put a movie on this mythical disc we shall see if it actually works in the current players (wouldn't that throw a wrench in your anti blu-ray arguments).
And where is this long list of real stinkers? I know The Fifth Element was terrible and then was re-released and the second release is rather impressive...and regardless this does not show an issue with the format itself, more a crap transfer, or bad encoding...this is an issue with who is putting the movie ON the disc...not the format itself for example the Pirates movies are absolutely STUNNING on blu-ray...
anyone who is not a fanboy will admit that picture qualities are nearly identical...
notice i said could be CONFUSED for superior...meaning if you were to say its superior, you would be wrong...your grasp of the English language is spot on!
and the extras...idc if they are "different" than DVD extras...I don't need or want all that crap...I want the movie...thats why i bought the film was to watch the movie...not see pretty extras...
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|"show me where I ever said that HD-DVD was an inferior product...I've NEVER used those words..."
- Of course not, you just prefer to insinuate it as you did in your last posting.
"oh you know plenty of people who prefer HD-DVD? please...thats a real scientific answer."
- Er, I never said otherwise, but I did point out, correctly, that it is the Blu-ray side that have had the list of very disappointing movies that have had to be re-done.
"when we finally see the 51GB discs, or when any studio decides to put a movie on this mythical disc we shall see if it actually works in the current players (wouldn't that throw a wrench in your anti blu-ray arguments)."
- Er no, actually.
Although it iwll be amusing to see some of the pi$sing rights removed from the Sony/PS3/Blu-ray fanclub it would be absurd to pretend that HD DVD 'needs' 51gb......as so many excellent 30gb transfers show very very clearly.
"And where is this long list of real stinkers? I know The Fifth Element was terrible and then was re-released"
- Then you want to look harder.
There were more than a few.
" and the second release is rather impressive"
- LMAO.
It's better but it's hardly "impressive".
Have you seen the screenshots?
It's still very 'blocky' in places.
" this does not show an issue with the format itself, more a crap transfer, or bad encoding...this is an issue with who is putting the movie ON the disc...not the format itself for example the Pirates movies are absolutely STUNNING on blu-ray..."
- Wow, so the truth is dawning on some.
You see the truth is that I have never said there are no decent (or even excellent) Blu-ray transfers.
My beef is with the idiot crowd who pretend (usually on a poor understanding of the spec sheets) that Blu-ray must be superior to HD DVD.
It isn't.
It is also loaded with DRM which makes it well worth steering well clear of IMO.
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|again, i've NEVER said Blu-ray was superior...and as far as I'm concerned they are of equal quality...both have small pros and cons that the average consumer will never notice or care about...
if the new discs don't work in the old players it would most certainly hurt your arguments against blu-ray...considering your big argument is that older players can't use the new features...but they will at least be able to play the movie...
its all about the transfers in the HD world...HD-DVD's are just as likely to have bad transfers...i guess you could say they have just been lucky enough to avoid that up to this point...luck of the draw i guess...it really has nothing to do with either format...just the actual transferring of the film itself...
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|LMAO. Look who spoke too soon.
"Hit a nerve"
FFS, still using the infants guide to trolling huh?
BTW just in case you missed it -
HD DVD offers the largest amount of actual available, exclusive and potential movie content.
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|and of course...no real response...as expected...
who's mouth am i putting words into??
I never said HD-DVD was inferior to Blu-ray...Blu-ray I believe supports higher bitrate video codecs, so that could be confused for superior...but in reality as far as what you see on your screen, and hear from your speakers...its just about identical...and i would bet that none of us would be able to tell the difference...
HD-DVD has more interactive features right now...but i couldn't care less...i buy a movie to watch the movie...i don't care about a movie commentary with a pip feature stuck on my screen with the actors or directors making comments...i hate that crap...give me the movie...give me some delete scenes...some behind the scenes footage...a blooper reel or something and im set...i don't give two $H*T$ about fancy menus and what not...just want to watch the movie...
oh and Hocus...i was not throwing tantrums....just trying to do my best Hollywood impression....must have gotten it pretty good to hit a nerve with you...
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|"and of course...no real response...as expected..."
- Oh dear, couldn't help yourself leaping up to make a t*t of yourself again I see.
Like I said, you guys have had that covered for months.
"I never said HD-DVD was inferior to Blu-ray...Blu-ray I believe supports higher bitrate video codecs"
- Wrong.
Blu-ray supports the exact same 3 codecs that HD DVD does.
When we get the 51gb TL disc we will also see that it is HD DVD that has the highest peak raw bit-rate (@54Mbps).
(like as if that is the only consideration.....but like I said to the superficial idiot spec-sheet jockeys it's all that counts)
You see this is what is so hilarious, you guys don't even know the subject like you pretend to.
"so that could be confused for superior"
- Only by the sort of superficial ignorant spec-sheet jockey that dominates the Blu-ray fanclub.
"but in reality as far as what you see on your screen, and hear from your speakers...its just about identical"
- Except that it's Blu-ray that has the list of real stinkers, not HD DVD.
Stinkers so bad that they have had to re-do and re-release some of them.
"i would bet that none of us would be able to tell the difference..."
- Says you.
Why is that?
Cos I know plenty that have both and express a clear preference for HD DVD.
"HD-DVD has more interactive features right now...but i couldn't care less...i buy a movie to watch the movie...i don't care about a movie commentary with a pip feature stuck on my screen with the actors or directors making comments...i hate that crap"
- Which just goes to show how little you guys know about it.
The extras HD DVD has are not the same as the extras DVD has atm.
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|Sony was supposed to have that stuff working to but they didn't so they make you upgrade that is nice of them. That part is complete garbage and you know it. Oh and stop putting words into peoples mouths which you seem good at.
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|Rather than throw a rather infantile tantrums on the matter and casting up the most ludicrous comparisons going perhaps the Blu-ray fanclub might like to consider how come the (according to them) 'inferior' HD DVD can have fully functional 'advanced features' from day 1 (over 1 1/2 years ago) and their beloved still can't.
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|haha....Hocuspokus....you're a straight up idiot...
"as it can be reasonably expected that more HD DVD order on-line."
bahaha! proof? yeah thought so...there is none...moron...i dont understand why only HD-DVD's get ordered online, but PS3 owners can't order their blu-ray's online?? that makes no sense and is a total crock...your grasping my friend...grasping for something that just isn't there...
and I loved your response to the Disney thing...when the article says NOTHING about Disney not releasing anymore blu-ray's...just the fact that Underdog would be the last release of 2007...
I guess Disney's blu-ray Mall Tour thing that has been going on since August and runs through the end of December really is showcasing their wavering stance in blu-ray :::rolls eyes:::
and about the blu-ray players...even if the newer interactive features do not work on the older players they players are still going to function exactly as they do now...which is play movies...
and remember this....you guys always like to point out that even though blu-ray has a good sized software lead that it is such a small percentage of the population...and this is right, because anyone with HD-DVD or Blu-ray movies is what the industry would consider an early adopter, or enthusiast...now...what Home theater enthusiasts plan to keep their DVD/HD-DVD/Blu-ray/anything players for a really long time without upgrading?....
yes, sure HD-DVD was smart to include all of these features from the get go...but have we still not gotten confirmation about the new 51GB discs working on the old players yet? But even still, how long do you expect the enthusiasts to keep their old, 1st gen HD-DVD players anyway? They will surely want to upgrade their players sooner rather than later...this issue, won't become an issue until the general public adopts an HD format...
your only real argument also just happens to be something that goes on in every portion of the electronics business...
My Samsung HDTV displays 1080i and 720p resolutions, but not 1080p...DOWN WITH SAMSUNG FOR NOT INCLUDING 1080P IN ALL OF THEIR HDTV'S FROM THE GET GO!!!
My Intel P4 630 is only a single core cpu...DOWN WITH INTEL FOR NOT INCLUDING 3 MORE CORES FROM THE GET GO AND UNLOCKING THEM AT A LATER TIME!!!
How bout Stereo receivers...oh no..a $1000 receiver that only allows HDMI video, I need to use optical for the audio...DOWN WITH DENON FOR NOT INCLUDING FULL HDMI 1.3 AUDIO SUPPORT FROM THE GET GO!!!!
DOWN WITH EVERY PC MANUFACTURER EVER BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T INCLUDE 52x CD ROMS IN EVERY COMPUTER FROM THE GET GO!! BAHH!!!
your argument is not really an argument when it comes to electronics...
while I agree that it would have been nice for the blu-ray camp to include all of these features from the get go they didn't...and its not realistic to imagine them not releasing new features down the road that maybe older players cannot handle...same goes for HD-DVD....but it doesn't change the fact that the older players should still be able to play the movies...just not take advantage of some of the various features...it also doesn't change the fact that blu-ray is selling more than HD-DVD...and doesn't seem to be slowing down...
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|"haha....Hocuspokus....you're a straight up idiot..."
- Don't be modest, you and the rest of the Sony/PS3/Blu-ray shill crowd have had that covered for months. :P
i dont understand why only HD-DVD's get ordered online, but PS3 owners can't order their blu-ray's online?? that makes no sense and is a total crock...your grasping my friend...grasping for something that just isn't there..."
- Clearly it is beyond your to grasp that the kiddies game console demographic is likely to have less credit card/bank account holding adults who would be more likely to order on-line.
I did not say none, but less would be likely.
Maybe that's too difficult an obvious truth for you guys to admit, huh?
"I loved your response to the Disney thing...when the article says NOTHING about Disney not releasing anymore blu-ray's...just the fact that Underdog would be the last release of 2007."
- Which for a supposedly big supporter of BD is unusual IMO given the timing.
"and about the blu-ray players...even if the newer interactive features do not work on the older players they players are still going to function exactly as they do now...which is play movies."
- What do you mean "even".
They won't.
Period.
They don't have the necessary hardware.
You might think it's ok conning people over those supposedly 'advanced features' they're advertising them with but I bet a lot of those paying the (double the price compared to HD DVD) premium might well give a damn that their expensive new toy not only cannot play those features but......
.......it will also not go down well if they continue to have serious problems with the 'profile 1.1' and 'profile 2.0' discs - if they even appear.
"have we still not gotten confirmation about the new 51GB discs working on the old players yet?"
- We'll all be seeing that one soon enough.
IIRC the comment from CEDIA was gen 2 & 3 "definitely" are ok with the 51gb TL disc and gen 1 is 80% likely to be ok
(and if so then a voucher replacement scheme would run to help make the change easy & painless).
We'll all see soon enough.
"But even still, how long do you expect the enthusiasts to keep their old, 1st gen HD-DVD players anyway?"
- I doubt it's anything like the 'problem' the Sony/PS3/Blu-ray fanclub want to pretend it is.
"your only real argument also just happens to be something that goes on in every portion of the electronics business..."
- Er, no.
The argument against Blu-ray is a hell of a lot more than 'just' over-priced and under-spec'd kit.
Blu-rays DRM is an extremely important factor.
....and of course not forgetting that
HD DVD offers the largest amount of actual available, exclusive and potential movie content.
.....oh and
" blu-ray is selling more than HD-DVD"?
That's totally down to the PS3, not actually 'Blu-ray' as such.
But HD DVD stand-alones are selling fast and that can only continue as prices fall ever-lower.
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|LMAO!
The Sony/PS3/Blu-ray shills are reduced to returning to howling at the moon pretending that Universal is going format neutral in a couple of weeks.
They've had lying 'insiders' pretending that they know some secret info & telling them this garbage since Jan 2007.
When will the ever learn, fools.
......oh and btw Neilson doesn't take account of on-line sales.
That means Neilson has an in-built bias towards the console based demographic of the kiddies & their game consoles (the bulk of PS3 owners) as it can be reasonably expected that more HD DVD order on-line.
Run away again Steve & count the days until your 3 weeks are up.
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|Well we know Betanews are in Microsoft's pocket, and many of the dumba**es that post here are early HD DVD/Xbox adopters keen to ensure their investments don't end up in the trash, so you can take everything you read on BetaNews with a pinch of salt.
The Neilsen numbers don't show stalemate at all, they show a slow but sure trend for blu-Ray dominance.
http://img443.imageshack...mmontageoriginaljo7.jpg
Whilst it's guarenteed the usual suspects will reply with FUD about Profile 1.1/2.0 and other desperate attempt to sway the buying public, it won't work, the buying public have decided, even the stores have decided, with Target now giving much more Blu-ray space, Blockbuster, Borders, Woolworths only stocking Blu-ray. Those stores without corporate decisions on store shelves, are already naturally having much more Blu-Ray content available that HD DVD.
In 3 weeks Universals exclusivity contract with HD DVD is up, how much will it cost Toshiba/Microsoft this time around, now that things weigh so heavilly in Blu-rays favor? Can they afford to buy them in for another year?
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|Dont think you realise the figures used in that image are now old and dont take into count since the hddvd sales have started to lift
To save you having to load the picture you posted, the newest date in there says Week ending April 1st 2007.
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|whatever you say smurfette dave
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|Wow...talk about a grudge. I find it ironic that you accuse HD DVD users of trying to keep their investment sound (with the ever ubiquitous FUD claim), yet you've bought into the BR propaganda machine, so completely.
You're numbers are more than a little bit old.
The profile 1.1/2.0 information is not FUD, nor has it ever been. Sorry, but the facts speak for themselves, and the BR camp seems content to not even try to defend themselves. The companies tend to avoid the topic, or claim that the movie will work, just not the extras. The smurf brigade claims that any site that points out this information is just a MS/HD DVD/Toshiba propaganda site, and plug their ears like children.
You don't even have a leg to stand on when it comes to people who sell the movies. Borders.com has plenty of HD DVDs listed, I just sent 2 HD DVDs back to Blockbuster, and (at least in the US) Woolworths has next to no presence any longer. Hell, the Target arguement is even weak. Both of my local stores followed the company policy and doubled their BR shelf space...they went from 6 to 12 titles available.
Another thing that qualifies as FUD by the smurfs, is their tendency to claim a payoff for Paramount/Dreamworks exclusivity (unsubstantiated), yet completely ignore the money that was paid to Target, or that Blockbuster was at point owned by a Sony subsidiary (both of which are substantiated facts). Sorry, but if its wrong for the money to change hands on one side (and create a huge amount of smurf tears), then its wrong when BR does it too...you don't get it both ways.
The only thing that weighs in BR's favor right now is the PS3, since that player has the best chance at being 1.1 compliant, when or if that standard ever actually sees the light of day. Ironically, Sony...the company that loves to toot it's own horn...is ever so quiet about this fact.
As far as Universal goes (and any other studio for that matter), I'd honestly like to see them all go format neutral, and let the consumer decide which one will survive. I have used both, and honestly...I found BR to be seriously lacking, in comparison to HD DVD.
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|Go back to your blu-ray.com forum with your fellow blu-blood soldiers. And that's an order!
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|Stolen right from the forums over at bluray.com nice job. Why don't you go back to to bluray and collectively get a clue.
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|Target much more space yes I noticed they added 4 blo ray disks. Like I have said before target can not be taken seriously since they have next to nothing for stock. But then again you will never admit that.
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|"You don't even have a leg to stand on when it comes to people who sell the movies. Borders.com has plenty of HD DVDs listed, I just sent 2 HD DVDs back to Blockbuster, and (at least in the US) Woolworths has next to no presence any longer. Hell, the Target arguement is even weak. Both of my local stores followed the company policy and doubled their BR shelf space...they went from 6 to 12 titles available."
I think you are struggling.
1/ I didn't mention Borders online, I talked about retail store.
2/Woolworths has a large prescence OUTSIDE the US. This war will be one on a global basis, not the US..
3/ The Target store I saw, Whitehall, PA, has at least 70 blu-ray titles in last week, and about 15 HD DVD.
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|Hmm, well considering that Microsoft and NBC-Universal recently joined forces earlier in the year... ain't gonna happen, Nancy.
If you're going to try impressing someone with figures and statistics, a JPG on ImageShack with very outdated statistics may not be the most credible source, and certainly not one to brag about.
Just sayin'.
...
Psst... Warner.
*watches Steve as he runs back to Blu-ray.com*
"Waaaahhh... He said 'Warner'! BAN HIM!!! LOCK THE THREAD!!! Mods, he said 'Warner'!"
LOL
I've gotta admit, you certainly live up to your moniker. Reading Blu-ray.com has certainly been amusing... scripted entertainment, sorta like "pro wrestling".
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|Why would you want to buy any hd format in a store when you can buy them online for far less money. Maybe you are not smart enough to figure that part out. Target I have yet to see one with more than 12 of either format. All the stores that I have seen have a very poor selection of either of the new standards. So they have 70 there is what a couple hundred titles and priced to high on top of that.
Go back to Bluray until you can back up your claims which you won't be able to.
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|"Why would you want to buy any hd format in a store when you can buy them online for far less money."
- No there's a question they avoid like the plague.
They also love to quote Neilson as and when it suits but never admit that Neilson does not take account of on-line sales.
Obviously in-store sales will show a little more favourably for Blu-ray (since their game console demographic is younger and a little less likely to have credit card accounts etc etc for on-line buying compared to HD DVD's).
But naturally this is also something they just prefer to pretend isn't happening either.
Sorry to burst your bubble there Steve but this 'war' is going to be decided in the USA.
(Rather laughably this line from Steve now is a total reversal of what the Blu-ray shills were saying until a short while ago......when they thought things were going their way.)
At one stage I had hoped it wouldn't be true myself but you'd have to be blind to not to see that with the largest share of HD TVs and high def DVD as well as much of the western world's movie content it is America that will decide this first.
In any event Steve's (or whoever's) desire to paint everywhere else as a Blu-ray success is only based on the poor selling PS3 (just as it once was in the USA).
But we can see (from the Amazon stats) that the same thing is happening everywhere (even in Japan - which was a surprise).
Blu-ray took a short-term but unimpressive lead in movie disc sales and HD DVD is closing the gap as HD DVD sales take off with ever-lower prices.
Deny the truth all you like but the facts are the facts.
PS3 has failed to win this 'war'.
It's only a matter of time until HD DVD superior price and content win out.
Suck it up BD shills.
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|"now that things weigh so heavilly in Blu-rays favor"
- Howls of derisive laughter.
You guys are just so determined to ignore the minute overall size of the high def disc market
(or the fact that HD DVD is closing the gap quite nicely now).
You must be in a state of shocked denial to not see what is really going on.
Your beloved PS3 has failed to win this 'war' (and without that PS3 Blu-ray died and was buried long long ago).
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|I'm hoping you take this question in a friendly tone: Where did they put a Target in Whitehall? I moved out of the Lehigh Valley about 3 years ago, and the closest Target to that area was over the border in Jersey.
I don't mean to derail the debate, it's just unusual to encounter someone from my old stomping grounds...
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|Blu-ray Disc Interactivity and You
http://www.ultimateavmag.com/features/907bdint/
...and the hits keep coming. LOL
It makes me wonder if the current and future models of stand-alone BD players are being price-fixed to drive up sales of the PS3. There is simply no reason whatsoever for such underspec'd and underfeatured devices to cost so much.
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|"I absolutely mean that the Picture-In-Picture (PIP) and networking features that are and have been available on HD DVD will be coming to Blu-ray.
While it seems that the most prevalent (by far) Blu-ray Disc player on the market, Sony's PlayStation3, will be compatible with these features"
" The Sony PS3, however, seems to meet all the hardware requirements for even BD-ROM Profile 2, and this is unquestionably significant if in fact the PS3 will be compatible with these advanced features. Not only is the PS3 the most prevalent HD player in the market on either side with over 1.8 million units in US households alone"
Thanks for that link.
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|So what about all those that bought standalone players for the purpose of playing well blu-ray movies?
I'd love for you guys to start proving people wrong here but all it ever is, is dodge dodge dodge and mis inform a bit.
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|Their players will perform exactly as they do today, how is that do diffucult to understand?
The fact the interactivity is moving on, and future discs and future players may do more, sorry, that's life. The fact remains, if you have a Blu-ray player it's capabilities will not be changed by profile 1.1/2.0 Anyone that says it will, is blowing smoke.
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|"seems"
"if"
Possibly... maybe... nobody knows for sure... check back in a few more months...
Yep, about par for the course for Sony. You're welcome. :)
I don't suppose you'd like to defend the rest of that article, hmm?
No, didn't think so. No Smurf can, because Papa Smurf can't... because it's true, and cannot be denied. But the BD lackeys will do what they always have: ignore it or cover it up.
I knew the part about the PS3 was in there, as I happened to read the entire article (which was good, by the way). I don't doubt that the PS3 stands the greatest (or only) chance of being upgradeable.
The point is, that has yet to be proven... still.
Respond to this, if you can:
The specifications have apparently been in place for quite some time for the newer profiles. It's down to the manufacturers to add those capabilities to their respective BD players and test them. Everyone has hit the proverbial brick wall with regards to that. Sony and their investors are counting heavily on the success and capabilities of the PS3 to drive Blu-ray sales. Surely Sony themselves would have updated their own console to support those advanced features by now if it were indeed capable of it. I mean... how long has the PS3 been out now?
Would you care to offer your opinion on why a simple firmware upgrade to enable those advanced features on the PS3 has not happened yet after so long (and with no official mention of that happening in the foreseeable future, as well)?
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|Not according to Denon, to name one manufacturer.
Sorry, but that's life? No, only in Sony's warped reality where constant delays and false promises seem to be the accepted norm.
Every single HD DVD player ever released can meet the requirements of each and every specification of the standard, for each player has the necessary mandatory built-in hardware to do so. There is nothing that firmware upgrades cannot accomplish on HD DVD players. There are no surprises, for the specification has been final since the launch of the format.
BD players? Not so much... except maybe the PS3. I'll concede that maybe the PS3 might stand the greatest (if only) chance of being upgradeable to support future upgrades to the profiles. How well do you think that machine is going to handle 2 separate high-bandwidth audio and video streams through software decoding? 256 MB of system RAM... 256 MB of VRAM.
Not making fun here... that's an honest question. Do you think the PS3 can handle it... PiP, I mean? It may have a nifty CPU capable of all kinds of crazy stuff... but the rest of the system bandwidth leaves a lot to be desired for such a cutting-edge next-gen platform.
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|So you admit that people that bought a $1000 machine are just kind of out of luck or sorry that's life. They will like that. You blow the most smoke here by the way.
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|"I absolutely mean that the Picture-In-Picture (PIP) and networking features that are and have been available on HD DVD will be coming to Blu-ray."
- Oh dear, so the best in reality you can do is claim they might match some of the HD DVD features, some time and on only some machines.
No sign of the laughable
"something vastly superior."
Steve Austin posted Sep 22, 2007 - 2:55 PM http://www.betanews.com/..._DVD_Players/1190310589
that you have claimed earlier then Steve, huh?
Goodbye Steve.
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|"but the rest of the system bandwidth leaves a lot to be desired for such a cutting-edge next-gen platform. "
And your proof?
The stats I saw yesterday, the Cell alone blows away a Nvidia G80 by a facor of 6, before the RSX is even added to the equasion. The XDR ram is considerably faster than anything around today in other consumer devices (HD DVD Blu-ray and 360 included). The system bandwidth between Cell/SPE/PPE and RSX is 25.6 GFLOPS, I don't see how that is not enough..
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|Your right one of the best in AV gear Denon does not know what they are talking about. Some kid with his PS3 knows more than the designers there.
And it has been discussed here on several occasions that the memory bus in the PS3 is very weak. And yes there were valid links to back it up.
Better run back to blu ray to get some more ammo from the bloods.
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|Of course you don't see, and I know the reason... you don't know what you're talking about. Mentioning the GFLOPS the PS3 is capable of is related to its overall performance, not the bandwidth of the system. I had just said that it may have a nice CPU, but the rest of the system leaves a lot to be desired for such a cutting-edge platform.
I spoke specifically of the memory bandwidth. It simply doesn't cut it, sorry to say. The Xbox 360 eats it alive in that area.
And they can call it 'RSX' or 'Reality Synthesizer' all they want... it's a 2 year old last-gen NVIDIA GeForce 7800 256 MB G70 GPU. Yeah, real bleeding-edge there for a next-gen console. *sigh*
By the way, I know what you're referring to regarding performance of the Cell vs the 8800 GTX GPU. The Cell is better at ray-tracing performance? Wow... that's, uh... so? This is important how? Ray-tracing is not used to render graphics in real-time. Rasterization is. Frame rendering. Get a clue...
The G80 is capable of approximately 500 GFLOPS, whereas the Cell is around 26 GFLOPS. That's the difference between 128 streaming processors and 8 (or 7). Not that it really matters, the GPU used in the GeForce 8800 GTX will always stomp a mudhole in the Cell's a** in sheer floating point performance and walk it dry.
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|Bam!
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|Thats called getting screwed and this day and age people getting screwed doesnt go down lightly.
The problem is, familys get a blu-ray player to play blu-rays. It should be a no brainer for them but its not because their interactive content isnt going to work now. Why should they write that off as a life experience when it was completely avoidable by the companies bringing this s*** out.
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|Well well well.
Lookey here; more bad news for Blu-ray?
Let's see if the coming 51gb TL HD DVD disc causes some Disney movement
(they are the only studio to specifically ask for such a size).
Disney have announced that they are not releasing any more BD movies after their announced title of Dec 18 "Underdog."
They refused to disclose what their planned releases for "08 were, if any.
"Disney to Close Out 2007 with 'Underdog' Blu-ray
Mon Sep 17, 2007 at 07:55 AM ET
In what Walt Disney Studios Home Entertainment says will be its last-announced 2007 Blu-ray release, the studio has confirmed that the family adventure 'Underdog' will hit high-def this December."
http://www.highdefdigest...th_Underdog_Blu-ray/969
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|"Tech specs include Disney's standard 1080p video and uncompressed PCM 5.1 surround audio (48kHz/24-bit/6.9mbps), spread across a BD-25 single-layer disc."
Hmm... wonder what they need all that extra space for? :)
On a serious note, I do applaud Disney for being the only studio to seem to have a desire to get the most out of the format, using as much of the available space as possible for the highest quality tranfers. I wish more studios on both sides followed their example.
Also bud, as much as I've stood with you and agreed with most everything you've said, I hate to burst your bubble on this one. While I love watching and helping you tear the infantile Smurf drivel to shreds on a regular basis, I do happen to enjoy being fair. That link you posted also links to another article mentioning Disney's proposed 2008 releases (though no release dates are given).
Granted, a measly 4 "seasonal" titles for the entire year of 2008 hardly suggest a "Title Wave", as it was put by their own press release. LOL
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|thats not what the article says at all...but someone of your intelligence would obviously have a hard time understanding English (it is the 2nd most difficult language to learn btw so I understand...)
All it said was that Underdog will be the last Blu-ray to be released in 2007...on Dec. 18th...thats pretty damn close to the end of the year..."oh no! Disney is going a whole week without releasing a blu-ray movie! The sky must be falling!" get out of here...
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|I hear some people also have a hard time comprehending math... a week?
No, actually it seems Disney is going a whole quarter without releasing a movie... "oh no!"
Yeah, that massive "Title Wave" of 4 movies coming out "sometime in the spring, summer, and fall" of 2008. LOL
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|LMAO.
Look matey if you're going to try slamming someone at least try & use your brain & pick your moment & get it right so you don't look a complete tw@t.
BTW interesting that I commented - quite far down the thread - to aredo that his/her garbled English indicated that it maybe wasn't his/her 1st language and here you are like some unoriginal dullard trying to pick up the theme to hit back.
Stung did it?
LMAO.
"Disney is going a whole week without releasing a blu-ray movie! The sky must be falling!" get out of here..."
- I'm just surprised that they haven't given up already with the level of brain-dead support that Blu-ray has.
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|I don't think that Underdog would really count since it is so bad. But you can count on the blu bloods buying it up to support the format even with crap movies.
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|I fear that Disney wants to use the additonal space for pay as you go content. That is something that Sony likes, reminds me of Dixv all over again.
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|There is panic in the streets over at bluray. They have to activate the storm troopers.
http://forum.blu-ray.com...php?p=245187#post245187
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|Watch Warner.
That's all I'm saying.
Seriously.
They will be making big news on this topic soon (some say the deal was done some time ago).
No wonder the Blu-ray fanclub are worried.
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|It's actually quite sad. Someone voices their opinion, and all of a sudden...
*everyone sticks their fingers in their ears and closes their eyes*
"Nyah nyah nyah! Blah blah blah! I can't hear you! Shut up! Stop it! Take it back! LOCK THE THREAD! MODS MAKE HIM STOP!!! Waaaahhhh!!!"
"...oh yeah, Bill Hunt for President!"
What a truly sad, pathetic bunch of losers. The way "discussions" are handled, that site really should have a hammer and sickle for the main page banner (but blue, of course). *sigh*
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|Funny how their childish antics are being noticed and not in a good way. They are becoming the laughing stock of the internet forums.
Oh no we have to have a buy-a-thon the show them we love then so maybe they will stay blu. blu like their balls I guess.
I agree very sad, even pathetic.
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|Any chance of you posting a quote or two from that link? It seems to have the Smurf Brigade worried enough that you need to have authorization to even read it...
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|Haha... apparently it was very recently locked down. My account no longer has access to it.
They're hilarious. Afraid of nothing, yet everything... their own little twisted world.
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|I'm glad people are finally taking notice of what I've seen for a long time at blu-ray.com
Our dear DaveBG / Steve etc..... is a charter member and comes here just to plant pro-BD info in case somebody finds it on a search engine.
I would love to see that post as well if you could copy and paste it here.
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|Nice. It seems you registered on the Blu-ray forums under the name: Hocuspokus
What are the chances..
Seems the ones that actually claim everyone else to be Dave, are the ones spoofing multiple ID's
busted!
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|I cant even view that thread with my account. Nothing to do with username either
*shrugs* lord knows why they locked it
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|Thanks Dave.
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|Sorry to disappoint you, 'Professor'. :)
It was HD DaViD, if you must know. I have to admit, it took them a couple of days before they saw the HD DVD reference.
"Hey, uhh... guys? I don't think this David guy really supports Blu-ray. What do you think?"
Yep, you're all a clever lot, you are... LOL
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|But conviently for you, your posts have been deleted, and your account banned. I saw the posts before they were deleted, and either your lying about posting them, or your Hocuspokus.
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|I registered the name HD DaViD to simply read certain threads that were unavailable to unregistered users. I made no posts.
Funny... I live in Owensboro, KY. The last I remember, I believe Hocuspokus lives in the UK.
People are banned from that site almost on a daily basis, even long-time members who step out of line just once for suggesting the possibility of something the "majority" considers absurd. "Warner may be leaning towards HD DVD..." Thread locked (after sufficient flaming and bashing ensues), user "justly" banned. One hell of a revolving door policy. McDonalds probably has employees that stick around longer than most of the users on that sorry excuse of a forum for "discussion". After more than 2 years of silently watching things unfold on that site, what I saw mainly consisted of a bunch of children verbally masturbating each other with all things BD, and jumping over each other at the next hint of a possibility for a witch hunt against someone who didn't agree with them.
Their relentless persecution knows no bounds. I saw nice and polite people get banned. I saw people who had genuine inquiries about either format get banned. Simply suggesting something that goes against what's popular (this week) on that site... flamed, then banned.
The Smurfs who say "Ni!"
Yeah, stickies urging users to send open letters begging studios and retailers to push Blu-ray... "and remember, be POLITE!" Yeah... whatever. Two-faced hypocrits. It's a dead give-away of their true attitudes and personalities on that site if they constantly have to be reminded to "be polite!" when it's time to "get serious". I'm surprised there isn't a stickied thread detailing how to do that, too... but then again, tactics and strategy was never the Blu-ray camp's greatest strength.
You can't have it both ways: promote your format and pretend to welcome people with open arms, yet act like elitist snobs towards those who aren't already on the BD bandwagon and simply prefer something else.
But sure, whatever you want to believe... why not keep the same attitude when it comes to Blu-ray. Believe what you want... or are told. I don't care. :)
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|I do indeed live in the UK.
I'm amused someone has used my handle here to go into Blu-ray.com (good luck to them) but sadly it wasn't me
(as I'm sure a swift look at the writing styles will show......over time that is the one bit that's really hard to fake and how come the one guy posting under so many names here is obvious).
In any event it's not as if 'Hocuspokus' is a particularly rare or unique little 'title' now is it?
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|"lord knows why they locked it"
- Because it's a PR site....probably an 'arms length' and easily deniable one (after they got caught at that on more than one occasion before) but undoubtedly just a part of the 'Phase Hydra' BS.
It's entire reason for being is to promote and spread 'pro-Blu-ray' comment.
That's why any deviation from that is barred, they're not interested in discussion, only as many favourable comments to key words as can be crammed in to trigger search engines and create a favourable impression to those who might not know better.
That's really all it is.
It is incredibly pathetic.....but then now it's been happening for some time you can see the net result, a counter-productive net joke, nothing less that a total laughing stock.
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|"What are the chances".
- Are you seriously trying to say you never heard of 'Hocuspokus' until you came here and saw my handle, hmmmmmm?!
LMAO
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|Dam* seems like the site is down. I will in the future include what wqs said since they seem to be locking stuff down now. Sorry about that I will see if I can get back in.
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|That site really is pathetic. If you even look like you are not one of the storm troopers for the blu bloods you are banned. Seems they are the ones that are in a bit of a panic. Oh no people are finding out that the troopers are a bunch of zit faced teenagers that in reality have no clue.
Maybe they would look more reputable or respected if they at least considered opposing comments. What a bunch of as Hollywood would say "jagg offs"
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|Its called paranoia. Word is out and they are running scared, so typical of those losers.
Here is what the thread was saying in a nutshell.
They were in a panic because they have heard rumors that Warner is not happy with BD is is not ruling out a format stance change. A buya thon was suggested then the thread was locked. The paraonia was humorous. You would almost think that the only thing important in life is bluray. If that is the case they are even worse off then I thought. For God's sake is only a format. There are much more important things in life than that.
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|You must be an admin from that joke of a site to know when some one registered.
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|The entire thread was deleted I checked back.
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|"HD DaViD"
That's pretty good. I wouldn't have been able to come up with that.
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|Thanks, though 'David' is not my name... it's Michael. :)
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|That's what sites like this one and others are for: to discuss both with no risk of censorship from a 'dictatorship regime' such as theirs.
It's funny... most of the Smurfs that post nonsense here for no other reason than to stir up a hornet's nest would be banned in minutes in their own 'forbidden forest'.
Most of them remind me of that spoiled brat Dudley on the Harry Potter movies.
"Mummy, Harry said 'Warner'! Make him stop!"
*sigh*
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|The Sony trolls have come out of the woodwork.
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|Microsoft bought Paramount, like they buy out everyone else. Like they bought good reviews for Halo 3.
Sad they need to resort to that, the Halo3 must really suck.
http://www.n4g.com/gaming/News-70701.aspx
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|If you want to believe go ahead and be a fool. The again we all know you are. And Sony bought Dinsey and didn't they also buy a ton a shares in an other studio to heavily influence their blu ray only stand. You fail to point out the way Sony buys Target, Best Buy and all the others. We all know you are full of crap Dave.
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|Yes a game that brings in $170 million in one day must be just terrible. Lol I find it hilarious watching the fanboys frantically try to play this game down like it is no big deal. The sales say it all.
http://www.gamesradar.co...=2005000000000000000350
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|"Microsoft bought Paramount"
- 1st go ahead & prove this claim you keep making.
(that is prove it with actual proof, not a series of newspaper reports reporting 'rumours' or supposed insiders saying their BS).
2ndly how hilarious it is to see that the Sony/PS3/Blu-ray shills really want to push this idea that Viacom/Paramount
(despite what they themselves have said on the matter)
could be 'bought' out of Blu-ray for a piffling $150 million.
$150 million is almost nothing to a company like Viacom/Paramount.
But it's interesting that the BD shill/fanclub really want to believe major studios like Viacom/Paramount can be induced to dump your beloved Blu-ray for almost nothing.
(not that any one of them have the wit to actually give their claim a moment's proper thought to consider this, nevermind what they actually has to say themselves on the subject)
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|Here is how it works, Microsoft make all the sheep feel that non owning Halo 3, and the moment of release, akes people showhow indequete.
At the same time, then send $800 packs to free stuff to every blogger on the net.
Lo an behold 10/10 reviews for your game, which basically fails to deliver, has jaggeies, and stuttering, and basically is Halo 2 all over gain..
You must feel proud that Microsoft manipulated you in such a way. Let's hope they don't ask you to self destruct (actually lets hope they do)
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|You've never played it. You don't even have a 360. You need to go back to your blu-ray.com forum and come up with something better along with your fellow blu-blood soldiers.
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|If you had a 360 and a clue you would know that you are wrong as always.
It amazes me how the only thing in life that is worth lifing for is your PS3 and blo-ray. If a game is made for any other system no matter how good it just sucks. It appears that the only one that does that is you.
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|Were you crying tears for your beloved as you typed that Steve?
Wow but those gallons of bile you spew day-in day-out must taste so sour.
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|"and what about ASUS? yeah they have HD-DVD products...but they are now members of the blu-ray association are they on the board at at HD-DVD?"
Yes we all know this, you posted it as DaveBG a while back.
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|Once again Steve / Metfanant / Dave completely forgot to show me where it says that PS3's and current BD players will be able to update to 1.1.
By thw way, you forgot to log out of the wrong username to reply to my post below, hurry up and change it before anyone notices.
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|Hollywood you posted nothing fuctual...
it doesn't matter how many more players are out there...it really doesn't...all that matters is that they are selling more...period...i could make a similar argument about PS3/xbox 360 software sales...i could say the only reason Madden is selling better on the 360 is because there are more 360's...but regardless...Madden has sold more copies for the 360 so there is no use in arguing the fact...
and yes i did say the name of the movie right...and yes it is not debbie DOES dallas...but the fact that its blu-ray exclusive, and an adult film is what i was going for there...
HD-DVD players are cheaper...yet Blu-ray sells more...figure that one out...next...
you assume to much about me...I don't really give a crap about which format wins in the end...I own a PS3...and about 4 BD movies...so a switch for movies would not be a big deal to me...as far as the PS3 is concerned...they will still make games on BD just like the PSP on UMD which was a failed format to say the least for movies but the PSP is still selling strong (in fact is selling faster now than it ever has)...if HD-DVD wins so be it...it will end this useless format war that should have never happened to begin with...I just feel that Blu-ray is going to win out in the end...
hairspray? ehh...posting on blu-ray.com? me? never....i'd like to see your proof of that...
its comical that you think Dave and I are the same person...you my friend are the one that is out of touch...
I also don't see your issue with the supposed DRM issues on the BD discs...yes i know Sony is known for their DRM debacles in the past...but in all honesty...the public doesn't know or care about DRM...and all DRM is there for is to stop piracy...if you're not pirating movies...DRM is a non-issue...period...and to be all anti DRM and support a product backed by Microsoft is INSANE...MS is just as bad as Sony....MS would prefer that you never be able to OWN another piece of software again...just rent it from them...
and what about ASUS? yeah they have HD-DVD products...but they are now members of the blu-ray association are they on the board at at HD-DVD?
Adobe produces the Creative Suite, owns Macromedia now, and Premier is well the premier video editing software for windows...and they are BD exclusive...oh and the other guys that do video editing, on Macs...yeah...Apple is a member of the BD association too...
next...
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|"I also don't see your issue with the supposed DRM issues on the BD discs...yes i know Sony is known for their DRM debacles in the past...but in all honesty...the public doesn't know or care about DRM...and all DRM is there for is to stop piracy...if you're not pirating movies...DRM is a non-issue...period...and to be all anti DRM and support a product backed by Microsoft is INSANE...MS is just as bad as Sony....MS would prefer that you never be able to OWN another piece of software again...just rent it from them..."
Simply put, Sony's DRM schemes are anti-consumer, and go well beyond anything that the competitors have done.
"Both HD DVD and Bluray used a copy-protection scheme called AACS. But Bluray also has touted something called BD Plus (BD+), which has been rather vaguely outlined, although we know it is a derivative of the SPDC system. The little bits that we know about it are that each player can run a program stored on a Bluray disc, which can then examine a set of rules and it's environment to determine whether to allow the disc to play. It has also been noted that the disc can possibly be used to deactivate a player, or to not play on certain players."
Maybe you've heard of patent #6,816,972, registered by Sony. If you haven't, this is for the software that will lock discs to players, thereby preventing/denying numerous cases of fair use. This tech hasn't been implemented yet, but the end result is frightening, as it could prevent rental, loaning, trading, or selling pre-owned discs.
Beyond this, there's the facts of Blu-ray players losing the ability to play recordable BR media, and the (IMO) outdated and ineffectual region coding scheme (I can't seem to locate any information on whether the RC is optional, or another broken/unfinished system).
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|Both steve and hollywood are lame, u guys constantly post "facts" but I never see any links to facts. I for one could care less, just hope we dont end up loosing both formats, that will waste lots of money from alot of early adopters, myself bing one.
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|http://techworlds.org/forum/uploads/1155904712/gallery_2_4_71852.jpg
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|Dude, I almost snarfed Mountain Dew out of my nose on that one... LOL
Good stuff. :)
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|;) I'm glad you enjoyed it.
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|Who cares. Just buy a dual player and shut the **** up.
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|The same 73% that thinks 128kbps mp3s sound great.
High Def Audio's failure redux.
Maybe if more people owned 100" screens and DLP projectors they'd realize how much better HD discs look than upscales. ;)
And for the record I own players and discs from both camps.
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|Dave,
before you scroll down, please explain.
By Steve Austin edited Sep 26, 2007 - 6:33 PM
By Steve Austin edited Sep 26, 2007 - 6:45 PM
By aredo edited Sep 26, 2007 - 6:45 PM
By aredo posted Sep 26, 2007 - 6:41 PM
By pitdingo posted Sep 26, 2007 - 6:39 PM
That's right, we'll chalk it up to divine intervention and coincedence that no less than three different BD shills came in within mintes of each other and all said the same thing.
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|I can explain this quite simply.
World population = 6.7 billion
6.7 billion, divided by 1440 (minutes in a day)
equals 4584877.9
There is extremly high chance that many people will post within minutes of each other.
What is more suprising perhaps, is how Microsoft brainwashed so many people, into thinking that missing out on Halo3 makes them somehow inferior to other 14yr old's (and 30yr old loners).
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|LMAO! That's it? That's your explanation? You want to go math against me? You'll lose Dave, I forgotten more about algebra, trig, and math than you will ever know.
I think you are pretty much full of crap and it really pisses you off when I prove you to be three different people.
If you would have ended your post after the bad math, people might have beleived you, but you threw the insult in there which tells me you are frustrated because I'm right.
I studied psychology too my freind. You are a texbook self-loather.
Here's some math: Number of PS3 / Sony fanboys on BetaNews = 1, number of times you have posted within minutes of all your other usernames, dozens.
Jagoff + scared little boy + fanboy = you
I know I'm right and you know I'm right. That is the reason why you insist on keeping up your little shillfest. Do you honestly thing "DaveBG" would ever miss out on an opportunity to bash MS and the 360, every chance he gets.
But alas, he's nowhere to be found, just you "Steve Austin" and your imaginary freinds all posting the same links. For a while, I thought there were a half dozen Sony robots on here until I figured it all out.
Face it Dave, you are nothing and I am brilliant.
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|Steve,
Why did you post a reply to something directed at "Metfanant"?
You had better log out and back in under the correct username when you try to argue with Hollywood__
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|It's not half as surprising as how Sony has managed to brainwash so many millions of people into thinking that the PS3 and Blu-ray was a wise investment for the future.
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|Blu-ray is still outselling HD-DVD guys....say its dead all you want...but its still outselling HD-DVD...outside of the US its not even CLOSE, especially in Japan....
oh and about the porn industry...apparently Vivid is releasing Debbie Loves Dallas in Blu-ray and DVD...but no HD-DVD http://www.blu-ray.com/news/?id=519
is this a hint of change from the previously format neutral studio?....
and all these cheap HD-DVD players...didn't Walmart just recently announce that they will NOT be carrying the $199 chinese brand HD-DVD player for this holiday season?
Didn't the Home Theater Specialists of America (HTSA) just announce they will be going blu-ray exclusive? citing 92% of high def players sold being Blu-ray with only 8% being HD-DVD...the HTSA represents something like 60 home theater installers...that does like $500 million in sales
I would imagine if all the stuff that Hollywood and his cronies spew about it being incompatible, and dead, and unfinished....that such an organization would back HD-DVD...but obviously Hollywood knows more than all of those guys...
what about ASUS? or Adobe? or Target increasing their shelf space for Blu-ray? (i believe Best Buy is doing the same)...
IDK...it seems to me that sometimes its Hollywood that is stretching his claims, and that he is the real fanboy in this whole thing...i just posted all facts...lets see what Hollywood has to say...i bet he just calls me dave and dismisses my post...
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|"Blu-ray is still outselling HD-DVD guys"
- With the entire high def market this tiny & immature that is hardly the enormously significant fact some desperately wish it was.
.....and HD DVD is now closing the gap.
"outside of the US its not even CLOSE, especially in Japan"
- Actualy I'd recheck you facts there cos I was rather shocked myself to see that even in Japan HD DVD is now closing the gap on BD.
See the Amazon figures for yourself, the UK & Germany allshow the same trend, afast closing gap between the 2 formats but still both remain tiny segments of the total moie disc market.?.
"oh and about the porn industry...apparently Vivid is releasing Debbie Loves Dallas in Blu-ray and DVD...but no HD-DVD http://www.blu-ray.com/news/?id=519
is this a hint of change from the previously format neutral studio?...."
- No, it's indicative that Vivd have only 3 BD titles and clearly aren't making a big deal of high def at all.
"and all these cheap HD-DVD players...didn't Walmart just recently announce that they will NOT be carrying the $199 chinese brand HD-DVD player for this holiday season?"
- No.
What Walmart actually said was that they would not be carring the Venturer brand of inexpensive Chinese HD DVD player.
There is a distinct but subtle difference.
"Didn't the Home Theater Specialists of America (HTSA) just announce they will be going blu-ray exclusive?"
- You do know this refers to a miniscule segment of the very top of the market and was a 'decision' by 68 installers?
Like they'd not be likely to go for the highest priced (and therefore highest mark-up) good(s) available on the market, irrespective of actual specs.
"I would imagine if all the stuff that Hollywood and his cronies spew about it being incompatible, and dead, and unfinished....that such an organization would back HD-DVD...but obviously Hollywood knows more than all of those guys..."
- The points about the 'profiles' is absolutely correct and the proof of it comes from Denon.
"what about ASUS?"
- What about them?
You do know (unlike BD) they actually have HD DVD products out on the market right now, hmmmm?
" or Adobe?"
- Like they're the only software out there?
It's early days, we'll see.
" or Target increasing their shelf space for Blu-ray? (i believe Best Buy is doing the same)..."
- If you imagine that Target is the entire story this X-mas you are very much mistaken.
Watch developments and see.
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|Oh my God you are posting a link to bluray.com now that is a joke. Target yeah that is also good they have a huge selection of what like ten blu ray and 5 HD yeah they are a real threat.
I like the way you mention only one title in the adult industry. They actually have a lot more and more of them are HD not blu ray.
As far as your BB statement I spok with the sotre by me and they are increasing with more HD than blu ray.
You can spin it how ever you want it still boils down to either or both may fail. Blu ray has a better chance of failure once the public understands the DRM implications and also the profile issues. Blu ray is beginning to remind more of an other format that failed remember Divx. People will love to pay over and over to watch bonus features and other crap with the wonderful Java in the disks. Consumer friendly blu ray is not. As far as outselling in media the gap is closing since owners of the toy (PS3) are not buying movies like Sony had hoped for.
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|Lets go through this one by one, shall we?
BD is outselling HD-DVD 2 to 1, and together they combine for one half of one percent of all movies sold. BD also has 17 times as many plyers out there as HD-DVD so the sales numbers / attach rates for BD are sad. Thats a fact.
Did you say "Debbie LOVES Dallas"? As far as I can remember, Debbie DOES Dallas" is the real movie. You are sad. Are you all excited about Hairspray coming on BD? I know you are because I read your post at blu-ray.com.
HD-DVD players are cheaper than BD players
right now, period. Fact.
BD is unfinished and was released unfinished, no where does it say your current players or the PS3 will be able to update to profile 1.1 or 2.0, nowhere. Thats a fact.
We will see what happens when the 1.1 spec is finally finished, a year after Sony mandated it be done in May of 2007, then October 2007, now Q1/Q2 of 2008.
The difference between you and I is if BD happens to get every studio on board and fixes all of thier problems, I will have no problem being a BD customer.
If BD takes a crap due to Sony's bad call on releasing an unfinished format and now tells all current BD customers that they can't update thier current players to the new spec, you and the other girls will go crazy and ban HD movies all together.
Unlike you, I have the resources to buy pretty much whatever I want within reason and don't really give a crap about the money. My XA1 is sitting unused in a back room, I don't care and I didnt complain because I knew it was first gen and was slow as molasses.
I just dropped another 700+ on a second Elite for my daughter with the network adaptor, three games, and a 12+1 month subsription to XBOX live for her. One of the games was mine (Halo 3) which I will give my thoughts on later because so far, I'm not all that crazy about it.
You still don't understand, I'm not money driven like you. You see this whole thing as "If Bl-Ray goes under I'm out 600+ dollars / euros or whatever" and will be pissed about the money.
I'm ego driven, I want to see BD fail simply because it's Sony, but that doesn't stop me from owning a player. I want to watch what I want, when I want, and if having both formats is the only way to go, then so be it.
As far as all of these other news stories go about BD and HD-DVD, you are the only one who spends all of your time hunting down this garbage and not enjoying your supposedly better BD / PS3.
HD-DVD is better in every way than BD because it's a finished spec and has been from day one.
If these people don't know you're all DaveBG by now, then they are all idiots. I have surmised that you work a menial job for almost no money and your investment is what is driving you to somehow convince everybody that BD is better so your money wasn't wasted.
You are truly one sad person. I'd also bet you hate women and are an angry drunk.
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|That debbie does dallas may or may not be true as far as I'm concerned, but do yourself a favor and dont ever take a news article on that site seriously.
You can get factual blu-ray news reliably elseware
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|"But the incredible figure is this: A full 73% of HDTV owners claimed they're happy with the non-high-def DVD player they already have."
This is not incredible. If you know your tech history, it's not the tech that sells people, it's the content.
itunes? content.
Operating system: Windows wins because the most content is on it.
Gadgets, gee whiz, etc don't sell a system. The PS and PS2 took off in sales because of the vast array of content available for both.
The Wii won because of the quality of the content, and what the tech did with it.
Neither HDDVD format is particularly enticing at it's pricepoint. Do you see a bead of sweat? to nerds, this might mean a lot. To people that don't care, neither HD format is going to matter when more content is on DVD.
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|This is all very silly. By the time either format "wins".....Phsyical media will NOT be the choice of storing movies anymore.
DUH!
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|"By the time either format "wins".....Phsyical media will NOT be the choice of storing movies anymore."
- HDDs are the best GB/$ devices available, unfortunately sheer size is not the be-all and end-all of this.
Once you go over a certain size then the organisation of your data better be very good otherwise they can be more trouble than they are worth.
Let's face it, this is really only all about high def movies.
Few private individuals genuinely have serious need for such vast storage once you take HD movies out of the equation.......as the still slow selling DL DVD9s prove.
The idea that we can all get our HD content via non-physical means fails on the reality of our net connections (even in the so-called developed world) where speeds are patchy and download limits common.
People like backing their stuff up and holding it in a physical form.
Imagine if all the images, music and/or movies you had on your PC were lost due to a failure of your HDDs.
You might well recover everything, eventually, but it would probably be one almighty pain in the a$$.
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|Keep on dreaming.
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|End game happened a long time ago. Sony's proprietary standard is long since dead. It happened when the pr0n industry supported HD.
It's over.
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|Are you kidding me? Upconverted DVD's look horrible, but then again, I'm extremely picky about picture quality.
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|Of course you are. Most people aren't though. They care about the content behind the disks, you know, what is important. It's like an id game. God it's beautiful, but underlying all that is a fairly dull game.
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|So am I, I watch movies on a 65 and 103. Some movies don't look good no matter what you do, like Twister, others look way better upconverted.
What are you watching them on? Plasma or LCD? If you are, that's your problem.
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|I know the players are more expensive but why are the HDD movies more expensive than the BR movies? Seriosly go to Best buy or hickmart and most HDDVD's are around 29.99 and BD is either 19.99 or 24.99 (still too much IMO anyway). Is there any reason for this?
another thing I see u guys write about is the firmware of BD players, does the upgrade to 2.0 affect the PS3 player since it can do firmware updates or is this a hardware change? If I had to buy a new PS3 cause they changed a the firmware crap, I would go HDVD just to spite sony, that would really piss me off. I spent over 900 on the system and some games to start with another 10-20 BD movies over the past few months, thats a decent amount of money!
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|As I understand it the PS3 updates itself when needed. the Sony Blue Ray players are not connected to the net, so you got to download a firmware patch burn it to a disc and run that disc in your drive... Some updates come on new movies and update the firmware the first time they are run in a machine that needs the latest firmware.
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|"Seriosly go to Best buy or hickmart and most HDDVD's are around 29.99 and BD is either 19.99 or 24.99 (still too much IMO anyway). Is there any reason for this?"
- No, look closely and you'll see the $29.99 HD DVD movies are combo discs.
Regular HD DVD movies are around the $18.99 level (but of course lower prices would be a good idea).
"another thing I see u guys write about is the firmware of BD players, does the upgrade to 2.0 affect the PS3 player since it can do firmware updates or is this a hardware change?"
- Profile 1.1 and the later profile 2.0 require hardware as well as firmware upgrading.
Right now no-one (official) on the Blu-ray side is prepared to admit to the PS3 owners that they will not be simply upgradable with firmware......and the fanclub believe it cos they so desperately want to.
We know from what Denon have said that they are still "working hard" to try to get profile 1.0 discs and players (ie everything Blu-ray on the market right now) working properly with profile 1.1 & profile 2.0 discs and players.
Denon are the only company 100% confirmed as making a profile 1.1 Blu-ray player (so what would they know about it, huh?)
Read it for yourself.....
http://www.listenup.com/...non/talmadge.aug.07.php
They keep postponing the introduction of profile 1.1 so they must be having major problems and are still unable to resolve this yet.
The plain truth is that if profiles 1.1 & 2.0 were simple matters of a firmware upgrade then Sony and the rest of them would be shouting this as long and as hard as they could (and even more importantly telling people in writing).
The fact that they are not and use their fanclub to spread unsubstantiated (and unsubstatiatable) gossip says it all.
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|Whilst the usual idiots will go off ranting about how no Blu-ray drives will be capable of profile 1.1 and profile 2.0, lets look at some facts, rather than speculation.
Profile 1.1 requires:
1GB of local storage (PS3 has 20/60/80GB)
Dual video decoders (PS3 does it it's decoding in software decoders, so dual decoders are simple to implement).
Profile 2.0 requires:
Ethernet port (PS3 has Ethernet).
Some of the latest standalone Blu-Ray players are not Profile 1.1 (or 2.0), but have these hardware features, and are simply waiting on firmare to support them.
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|What makes you think a firmware update will make everything ok? Sony has not said that, are you just making this up since there is no word from anyone stating what you say is a fact. I hope I can update the PS3 but I tend to believe it won't be possible.
Just updating software is not the fix all. We don't don't know how taxed the cell is as it stands now decoding one stream of video and sound let alone two.
So I challenge you to prove that this is as simple as you state.
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|The plain truth is that
if profiles 1.1 & 2.0 were simple matters of a firmware upgrade then Sony and the rest of them would be shouting this as long and as hard as they could
(and even more importantly & obviously telling people in writing).
The fact that they are not (and never have done so) and merely use their fanclub to spread unsubstantiated (and unsubstatiatable) gossip says everything anyone needs to know.
Cue yet more mere unsubstantiated assertion by Sony?PS3/Blu-ray fanclub...........
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|It amazes me that when asked to prove something they either do not respond or change tactics and attack from on other front. I don't see how anybody with a brain can not see that Sony has not said anything about firware updates being the fix for everything. It seems that the trolls here seem to think that a firmware update will fix any issue or add any needed feature. They fail to understand that the bottom line is that the hardware under the hood can not do everthing that they think. Instead they tell people blantant lies and call it gospel. Then there are the trolls that spew hate in every post.
I did see that HD DVD disk sales are soaring.
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|"It amazes me that when asked to prove something they either do not respond or change tactics and attack from on other front."
- They're a bunch of arrogant & condescending game playing zealot shills
(and there's an incredible level of ignorance about the subject - you'd have thought they'd at least 'employ' those with something of a clue rather than the cut'n'pasters we are regularly 'treated' to).
Some are just young kids who (by extension) are just waving the flag for their fav game console but there are other adult types trying to 'Phase Hydra'.
That's what makes this fun, pi$sing on their viral BS and making sure their outright lies don't go unchallenged for a moment.
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|Steve / Dave,
STFU and show us one of your trademark links that the PS3 or a ny other BD player will be able to upgrade to the 1.1 spec.
If you do, I will never say a word about it again.
What about all the stand alone players? Don't you care that all those people would be screwed if they can't upgrade to 1.1 and only the PS3 is able to? Of course not, you are money driven and only care about yourself.
Sorry but I will bet $1000 dollars that all ofht ecurrent players including the PS3 are screwed come 1.1 release time.
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|...and whilst the usual Sony/PS3/BD idiots post incorrect "factual" propaganda about the products they're so evangelical about.
- Profile 1.0 / Grace Period Profile:
64 KB of persistent memory required
- Profile 1.1 / "Final" Standard Profile (...is that like "Final" Fantasy? LOL):
256 MB of persistent memory required (not 1GB)
Secondary video and audio decoders required
- Profile 2.0 / BD-Live (...which may never see the light of day):
1 GB of persistent memory required
Network connectivity required
It helps to actually know the facts before posting them... idiot. You speculated half of your own post. Where were the "facts" you spoke of?
Perhaps you'd care to list the BD players you spoke of that actually have the hardware required? Careful... you might need to research this one a little better than you did this time. LOL
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|"STFU and show us one of your trademark links that the PS3 or a ny other BD player will be able to upgrade to the 1.1 spec."
*crickets chirping*
*shill runs back to Blu-ray.com to rally the troops*
"Quick guys, you've gotta gimme those links! I've done everything you've asked! I said what you wanted me to say... why am I being punished???"
HAHAHA
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|Can't you just get a 'firmware' upgrade to that amount of extra memory?
LMAO
(btw, 64KB!?
ROFLMFAO
.....mmmmmm, that'll go real far with HD content.
I think my answerphone has a bigger memory than that!)
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|But... it's fast 64 KB! :)
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|"*shill runs back to Blu-ray.com to rally the troops*"
They call themselves the Blu-Blood Soldiers.
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|Wow Dave, all of your aliases posted within minutes of each other, what a surprise.
By Steve Austin edited Sep 26, 2007 - 6:33 PM
By Steve Austin edited Sep 26, 2007 - 6:45 PM
By aredo edited Sep 26, 2007 - 6:45 PM
By aredo posted Sep 26, 2007 - 6:41 PM
By pitdingo posted Sep 26, 2007 - 6:39 PM
You waste of sperm.
Are you still bitter because I am immensely smarte (and more successful) than you and I prove you to be full of sh!t on a daily basis?
I just realized I have more money tied up in discarded remotes than you put into that whole system with the 42" DLP.
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|Do we really want to see Harrison Ford's aging face in hi-def? Nature scenery, artsy stuff, maybe. But most movies I've seen in all three formats work just fine in plain old DVD. I'm not convinced seeing the pores in actors' faces is worth the extra cost (and freaking stupid load times) and all that. I've got enough crap (and bills) already. Competing formats with no end in sight only scare people away. Make it simpler and cheaper and I'll give it another chance. Or I'll cave in and get an Xbox 360 for Halo 3 like everyone else and end up with HDDVD whether I care for it or not.
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|Well I have to say I have a very large DVD collection (637 DVDs) and I own 19 Blu-Rays. I will never re-buy my DVDs because my Blu-Ray player up scales them. Yet given the option to buy new movies on a superior format I have always chosen Blu-Ray over DVD. I don’t think that people will ever re-buy whole movie collections. As for digital distribution, that is a long way from becoming the standard. I really don’t see digital distribution becoming main stream for at least another 5-10 years and even then the majority of consumers at this point of time prefer to have fiscal media.
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|"the majority of consumers at this point of time prefer to have fiscal media."
I definately prefer fiscal media - especially lots of them in the $100 variety.
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|Oh wow, lookey here.
The Blu-ray shills all came out to pretend the whole world is all against them and their under-spe'd over-priced DRM-filled sh*te.
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|Funny the way they defend the love of their lives which is pretty sad. There is alot of truth to the article and they just don't get it.
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|I'm going to write a report on how 70% of consumers bypassing cheapo price dumped HD DVD players, and waiting for cheap Blu-ray players to arrive, in the meantime watching upscaled DVD's
Seems any old idiot can write a report these days, and Betanews will post it, as long as it suits their hidden agendas.
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|"Seems any old idiot can write a report these days, and Betanews will post it, as long as it suits their hidden agendas"
I agree 100%!
Beta"News" is the Fox"News" of gaming and electronics.
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|Looks like one just did.
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|If you don't like them then leave! It never ceases to amaze me how big of an a** people can make of themselves on the internet.
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|This is just nonsense. Who has paid this survey with these results, I wonder.. ? The main one wanting both formats to fail is Microsoft since Bill Gates dreams of a feature in which his DRM WMV videos will cost a lot of money to rent and no one will ever own a copy of a movie anymore.
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|HD DVD uses VC1 which is WMV.
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|"The main one wanting both formats to fail is Microsoft since Bill Gates dreams of a feature in which his DRM WMV videos will cost a lot of money to rent and no one will ever own a copy of a movie anymore".
- Go on then, if you 'know' this then go ahead, prove it.
Or else just admit that it is just more of your usual groundless specualtion and laughably empty mere assertion.
Anyone with even half a functional brain giving this a few seconds thought (so sadly this rules out the majority of your game console zealots) could see that even in the so-called 'developed world' we just don't have the connection speeds necessary for this ludicrous Microsoft want both disc based frmats to die and HD to be d/l'd in future BS to be even a remote possibility.
......and when you see the DRM cr@p Blu-ray is loaded with - particularly BD+ - this new claim from the Sony/PS3/Blu-ray fanclub that anyone elses' format is a vehicle for more DRM is simply a pathetic and deliberately misleading outright lie.
But then there's no surprise in that, pathetic and deliberately misleading outright lies have characterised the whole Blu-ray PR 'campaign' to date.
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|AACS is used on both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray discs. No group is releasing movies unencrypted on HD-DVD, unless maybe some C-movies and Z-movies...
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|Yes. Although HD-DVD supports the same codecs as BD, including MPEG-2 and H.264 the fact that the standard is Microsoft trojan horse to force VC-1 on the market makes its supporters use VC-1 which is way inferior to H.264
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|"AACS is used on both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray discs"
- Oh FFS this BS again, huh?
You really are a pathetic lying shill.
AACS has been broken on both formats.
The fact remains that with watermarking and BD+ Blu-ray is a vehicle for new and much more DRM compared to HD DVD.
They even made it a selling point to the movie studios.
Why are just flat-out lying about this?
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|"the fact that the standard is Microsoft trojan horse to force VC-1 on the market makes its supporters use VC-1 which is way inferior to H.264"
- I take it English isn't your 1st language?
Even Sony have used VC-1
Dave Matthews & Tim Reynolds: Live at Radio City Music Hall [Blu-ray].
http://www.blu-raystats.com/index.php
I suppose they were "forced" into it too, huh?
LMAO.
VC-1 isn't being "forced" on anyone, it's by far the best codec on the market & it's use in the majority of high def movies is no accident.
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|He's hardly lying, just stating that AACS is used on both.. and no studio is releasing any titles without that, none of the major ones
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|"He's hardly lying, just stating that AACS is used on both"
- But he's not "just" stating AACS is used on both.
He is deliberately trying to mislead by pretending AACS is the only DRM issue here.
It is a flat-out lie to pretend that AACS is the sole issue here.
AACS was broken on both formats some time ago.
But it is Blu-ray that has watermarking and BD+
( = hardware as well as sotware based systems, in fact).
This additional Blu-ray DRM is not something HD DVD carries.
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|The prices on the content is way high too (on both formats). Most people have a large DVD collection and are hesitant to buck up to upgrade things to a HD format, be it Blu-ray or HD-DVD.
Not only do you need to buck up for the player, you need to buck up for the content.
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|Until you can bring me HD content at close to current (SDDVD) prices, tell me what my incentive is as a consumer? The ONLY somewhat perceived difference is video quality. Audio quality is fine; most people can't tell the difference between a CD and an MP3, so once you get to 48k/24b in up to 7.1, who cares for an end product.
Let's remember what I think the biggest factor is. Video quality for HDTV is excellent in theory, but when you have cable and satellite companies constricting the pipe so much that it looks about as good sometimes with just a stretched SD feed, and people ARE OK WITH IT, apparently, the only barrier is PRICE.
Seriously... have you ever called your cable company to complain about the bitstream because of the pixellation occurring? No, of course not. So if broadcast companies are willing to dish this poo for video, why are they surprised with the public yawn of improved video for megabuck$?
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|Personally I think the general idea is correct, the public may not be wildly excited by HD - yet.
But as we get to the pricing level where $149 and $100 HD DVD players will become a reality (this X-mas for $149 is certain and IMO thanks to CH-DVD the end of spring 2008 for $100) it's likely to work out as 'DVD+'.
That is to say that prospective buyers of a regular DVD player will seamlessly switch to an HD DVD player because that is what is available, good quality regular upscaling DVD players that also just happen to be HD DVD players.
HD isn't going away, from TVs to satellite to cable to HD DVD players.
It's just a matter of time.
Sadly for Blu-ray they just can't match those kinds of prices and rely heavily on an expensive game console.
(and the DRM BD carries makes it well worth steering clear of)
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|Seems you are one of the few people left who actually think HD DVD stands any kinda chance.
Even the HTSA have gone Blu-ray based on sales.
http://www.twice.com/article/CA6481073.html
I don't see how HD DVD can turn this around right now, stores are dumping the movies, and giving more and more space to Blu-ray, studios are ramping Blu-ray releases, and the talk of a $300 PS3 Blu-ray player is fueling even potential purchasers to hold on. Every major manufacturer (aside from Toshiba) right now has Blu-ray products on shelves on in the works.
The budget Blu-ray player will eventually arrive, perhaps pre-Xmas,but until then, most people are happy to wait and use upscaled DVD.
The Paramount/Toshiba pay-off may have been a setback for Blu-ray, but how can can Toshbia keep subdising the players (rumoured to be $250+ a unit), and keep paying studios to stay in their side. Not too much longer I think.
All this article shows, is msot people KNOW Blu-ray will be the eventual winner, and are just hanging out for cheaper players, and it doesn't matter how much Toshiba dump the price of HD DVD player, people still are not buying in any significant quantity.
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|"Seems you are one of the few people left who actually think HD DVD stands any kinda chance."
- LMAO.
You (so obviously) wish, shill.
"Even the HTSA have gone Blu-ray based on sales."
- LMAO again.
68 installers of the most expensive (and therefore this is utterly meaningless to the mainstream mass-market) home theatre systems said they preferred to install the most expensive HD disc based system (Blu-ray).
Wow, amazing surprise there.
'Course the mark-up and margin on $1000+ Blu-ray players has nothing to do with this does it, shill?
Jeeeez, if you knew the subject half as well as you pretend to you might be capable of a decent discussion.
HD DVD offers the greatest amount of available, exclusive and potential content.
Run away now Steve, you're so obviously out of your depth.
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|Well, I can't actually get any HD DVD titles in my area, everywhere is Blu-Ray only.
So I would have to disagree with your marketing slogan you invented there.
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|Leave the trailor park and will find your most sought after HD DVD media. Funny how HD DVD has been catching blo ray recently.
Wait until all the people with current blo ray machines can't update to profiel 1.1 and have to buy new machines. Then have to buy yet again once 2.0 comes out. Then Sony locks disks to machines and your trailor park has to stop doing trades and rentals, oh the irony of it all.
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|Run away Steve, you know you can't do anything but make empty assertions and post idiotic little pictures.
I have the facts on content. Too bad for you Blu-ray shills.
HD DVD offers the greatest amount of available, exclusive and potential content.
You lose, loser.
The truth obviously hurts, eh?
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|There are other stores besides Target.
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|"Seems you are one of the few people left who actually think HD DVD stands any kinda chance."
Sorry, but it is rather obvious that you are one of the few who actually believes that it doesn't.
"...it doesn't matter how much Toshiba dump the price of HD DVD player, people still are not buying in any significant quantity."
The same can (and should) be said for Blu-ray products. It doesn't matter how much the BD players come down in price, either. You just reinforced what the article already stated. Most people simply do not care, and are content with what they already have.
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|90% of people just watch the main movie, the remaining 9% watches included making of and special features, then just 1% would care about interactivity features.
No one will care about profile 1.1 and 2.0 support as long as the main movie plays fine.
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|"No one will care about profile 1.1 and 2.0 support as long as the main movie plays fine."
- LMAO.
Here's the latest programmed line in Sony/PS3/Blu-ray fanclub drone BS.
Of course for as long as only HD DVD has these advanced features then, according to the Sony/PS3/Blu-ray drones, they are all worthless
(and to be described as being little different to what DVD offers now).
But if ever Blu-ray does get it's version of them up & running they'll sudddenly become "awesome".
Predictable & utterly pathetic.
The 'advanced features' are not the same as the current 'extras' on a regular DVD.
The movie industry is looking forward to the new income streams some of those advanced features (especially the on-line selling ones) will generate
(and these constant delays in introducing this to Blu-ray is another aspect to why Viacom/Paramount dumped Blu-ray).
People paying the premium for high def (especially the 'double the price' Blu-ray high def) expect some of the 'advanced features' the format advertises to actually be up and running and working properly.
HD DVD can manage it and has done since day 1, shame Blu-ray can't, eh?
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|Nice way of backing out of the issue there. Pay for something you can use that makes sense.
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|73%. That's a pretty telling number alone, right there. Who cares? Apparently not many.
It's interesting to look back at the vitriol in the past few HD threads while pondering this number. Is it worth it to argue so violently when the vast majority of people out there couldn't possibly care any less??
*shrug* It is fun to watch though...
(Note to self: Don't leave browser window open and maximized while out of the office with Bash.Org loaded up...)
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|Yep the adoption is so tiny.
The war is SO far from over its not funny
Pitty the boys at blu-ray.com cant grasp that.
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|This is what I have said almost from the day Blueray and HDDVD came on the market... WHY? Who really gives a flying fig which wins. Both are too expensive for what little they are when compared to a traditional DVD that today is at saturation and has NO defects in design...
The normal everyday Joe will not go out and waste hundreds of dollars on equipment and discs that they could get for, in some cases, less then $20 on the traditional DVD market.
And its all perfectly fine to watch on a regular or HD tv and be very very happy with what you get.
Is HD / BR Discs better? Maybe. But then again so was betamax over VHS and laser disc over betamax... Didn't change much the market in their day did it?
The reason the DVD ultimately overtook the VHS was a few reasons.
1: Massive flooding of the retail and rental markets with the DVD format. Providing High quality images that didn't degrade over time as VHS does.
2: Extremely cheap equipment to ensure everyone got one for their home. Probably right along side a VHS in fact... If not a dual deck system that had VHS and DVD in one.
3: Portability never before seen in the market. Portable DVD players became the walkman of the age... Taking your movies with you became the norm for long flights or road trip vacations... VHS had this too, but it was a bulky endeavor.
4: Portability and ease of use... Lets face it with all the updates to DRM that the hardware needs over time and getting discs that just do not work in expensive machine... Blue ray is an ultimate failure because of this... I have bought at least 4 discs myself that do not work because of the DRM crap. I did the firmware updates yes, but the resulting playback Skips and freezes constantly in the sony players... Something that just does not happen with traditional DVDs unless the disc is damaged.
5: And finally User rights to backup and use the content how they wish..(possibly illegal yes but there none the less). Fact is DVDs can easily be ripped to a portable player like an archos and taken with you without risking damage to your DVD collection. Not so with HD content. Not only is the resulting rip extremely huge, but the DRM is a pain in the a$$ETs to let you use your content that you purchased as you wish it to be used.
So ultimately why put up with the BS? Let them all go under and fail and DVDs will remain for a long time to come to provide the consumers with what they demand. Cheap equipment, Cheap movies, and ease of use for user rights. As long as the HD BR choice is higher then DVD on any of those factors they will NEVER go mainstream with the general populace.
In the end the only thing that will replace a DVD is one of two posibilities...
1: Digital file streaming in HD. Basically a small HD file that is downloaded and backed up as the user wishes for a fee. Prob on a burned HD disc someday... But the file sizes will have to come down drastically for this to happen...
2: Mini Blueray... Basically a 1/2 size Blueray with the capacity of a full DVD. Resulting in smaller discs, smaller players and smaller equipment footprint... This will also allow for Mini players to be used again like a walkman and played probably through a type of eyeglass based screen on your head.
The Big Screen TV on your head technology already exists (www.Headplay.com) its just a matter of getting the equipment to a size that complements that concept...
My best friend has a blue ray and the few discs we got for the thing for him work fine, till recently. I can't remember the name of the movies but it was after the forced firmware update cause they would not play in the Sony machine... But now all the movies skip, freeze, or worse just plain stop while in the middle of the movie.
Add to that the dam thing takes FOREVER to start up, or open the drive for a new disc. And the spin up seems to take a long time just to get to the menu. Not to mention the fact you can not skip the previews to get to the menu right away... What a pain in the ass. He hates the thing, and regrets ever having got a HD player of any flavor... That's a bad business statement for the product... Ultimately I think this is what most of the "Early adopters" are saying to themselves anymore for buying into the Hype that never really came.
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|I use the PS3 and have no problems skipping previews, skipping discs, loading time, or any of the junk u just listed. I have not used the $1000 BD playerm and why would I when I could get a game + BD player for 1/2 that anyway mine works fine with over 20 titles.
1 point i agree in is the 1st format to come out with cheap burners and blank media will eventually take over. Think about it- if u have the options to buy a 100 pack of blank BD/HD's at say $100-$200 and a burner for $100-200 why would u stay with dvd. The code has already been hacked for both formats, its only a matter of time until a "dvdshrink & decrypter" for HD formats is devoloped and the bam, high def riping of movies.
I for one would love for this country to get with the tech of the east and offer the fast wimax bands coming out and open up the pipelines to just stream HD content and massive harddrives for storing the content. Unfortunetly the mpaa and other currupt "political" douchies will never let this happen.
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|Blu-Ray single layer 25GB writers are already below $499 price point, the price keeps falling every month. 25GB single layer BD discs can be bought at just $6.99 each already, and the price will keep falling.
There are no HD-DVD burners on the market in practice, it's very hard to find blank media.
Blu-Ray blank media and writers are already made by many manufacturers
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|"Blu-Ray single layer 25GB writers are already below $499"
- Go on then, prove it.
You guys love links so let's see some proof of these claims and see whether you're lying or twisting the truth, again.
Show me 3 well known regular US computer component outlets selling a BD burning drive @ $499.
I can find the Pioneer BD ROM (reader @ $299 at Best buy) but their Sony BD burner is $699.
Their 2 pack Sony BD25s and their Verbatim BD25s are $20.99.
http://www.bestbuy.com/s...id&usc=abcat0500000
Circuit City have 1 Philips BD burner for $549 and their TDK BD25's are $19.99 & their Sony BD25s are $24.99.
http://www.circuitcity.c...em/ccd/productDetail.do
Amazon USA stock a couple of BD burning drives none of which is less than $533 (Lite on) and their BD25s start fron $11.99.
http://www.amazon.com/s/...;field-keywords=blu-ray
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|Thank you for that article, Scott. That was a lot to take in, but was a very informative and interesting interview. It's something I've actually been waiting to be discussed for quite some time: the possibility that neither is winning, and I guess the research shows that to be the case.
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|I was wating for this to surface here. That is not far from reality. Sales for both formats have been very weak to say the least. Blo-ray can spout off their numbers but in reality both formats combined are a joke when compared to SDDVD. Most of the poeple where I work have never even heard of of HD DVD or Blu Ray. This seems to point to marketing as not working very well.
Prices are way to high to mean anything especially on the blu ray side. There is news flash after news flash about $1000 units coming out soon but the general public will not go for that.
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|Actually HD-DVD players are even more expensive if you want a 1080p capable standalone.... Also, Toshiba is the only manufacturer of HD-DVD players so far...
A PS3 can be bought for less than $450 already and it's the best BD player on the market. And there are many Blu-Ray players on the market, not just those made by Sony.
HD-DVD burners for PCs practically just don't exist while Blu-Ray ones are getting cheaper month after month.
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|"Actually HD-DVD players are even more expensive if you want a 1080p capable standalone...."
- Wrong.
The 1080p Toshiba HD XA2 (a high-end & fully equipped HD DVD player boasting audio & video performance 2nd to none, period) is currently $479.99 refurbed on Amazon USA or $557 new delovered from Amazon.
That's very close to the cost of the under-spec'd 'profile 1.0' and obsolescent Blu-ray entry level players.
($437 for the Sony S300 new or a PS3 @ $499 on Amazon USA now)
The 1080p Toshiba HD A20 is currently only $307.
......and what does "Blu-Ray....(burners)..... are getting cheaper month after month." mean actually, huh?
They're what $600 - $900 a piece now instead of $1500 - $2000!?
LMAO.
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|Guess again.
Nothing more to read here need to stop feeding the trolls.
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|Hey the burners blo-ray burners are great, limited devices to play the disks back on that is a great plan.
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|i know the players are more expensive but why are the HDD movies more expensive than the BR movies? Seriosly go to Best buy or hickmart and most HDDVD's are around 29.99 and BD is either 19.99 or 24.99 (still too much IMO anyway). Is there any reason for this?
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|another thing I see u guys write about is the firmware of BD players, does the upgrade to 2.0 affect the PS3 player since it can do firmware updates or is this a hardware change? If I had to buy a new PS3 cause they changed the format I would go HDVD just to spite sony, that would really piss me off. I spent over 900 on the system and some games to start with another 10-20 BD movies, thats a decent amount of money!
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|Most, if not all (I can't remember), of HD-DVD's are combo disc's were it's Standard DVD on one side and HD-DVD on the other, so your getting both. Which I think is a good idea because normally you only have one HD-DVD player and if you want to play the movie on your TV in your bedroom or whatever you can just play the DVD side.
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|I just bought a Toshiba hd-A30. for for $352 (with my BB 12% coupon) fully support hdmi 1.3a and 1080p. HD-DVD titles I admit are behind BR but it would be long before the have more titles with Viacomm signing on. So with cheaper players and more titles coming. The winner will be who buys more units which I believe will be HD-DVD. Once triple layer hd-dvd gets the ok then BR will not have the capacity bragging rights. again to early to say but i'm betting hd-dvd
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|"another thing I see u guys write about is the firmware of BD players, does the upgrade to 2.0 affect the PS3 player since it can do firmware updates or is this a hardware change?"
- Profiles 1.1 & 2.0 require hardware as well as firmware updates.
There is not a single 'profile 1.1' Blu-ray player on the market right now and there isn't likely to be one until spring/summer 2008.
They keep delaying the deadline for the mandatory introduction of profile 1.1 players (nevermind profile 2.0).
Clearly they still have major problems getting it all to work
(according to Denon particularly with the existing profile 1.0 discs and players).
If it was just a matter of a mere frimware upgrade then the Blu-ray manufacturers would all be shouting this from the rooftops as long & hard as they could 24/7.......and more importantly telling their existing and prospective customers it in writing.
The fact that they are not tells you everything you need to know.
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|Nice try but there are many surveys on the net that will prove that to be wrong. Some may be higher but most are not. That has been descussed here before and debunked before also.
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|What the article says is that the general public do not care about HD DVD or Blu ray, in fact most have never heard of them.
As to what you speculate I would like to see a firmware update do what you say it will. Not even Sony has the nads to come out and say it'll happen. DO you not think that if this was the case they would be bragging left and right. Instead they are quite, that says a lot. I like the way all the fanboys are developers and know what the system can and can not do when Sony has not said a think about it. The fanboys are joke with it can do this and that and in reality have no clue as to what it can and can't.
This is more towards others than your post. I would agree I will be pissed if my PS3 had to be replaced since the hardware is not there.
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|Welcome to the true better format. Blu has to much potential to shaft the customer but the Sony workers that post here always avoid that part of the equation.
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|"the Sony workers that post here always avoid that part of the equation."
- One of them simply turns up and lies outright about it, claiming it is HD DVD has the DRM problem.
He is simply hoping people don't know about the watermarking & BD+ DRM systems unique to Blu-ray
(which the Blu-ray camp made a selling point of to the movie studios as something 'better' than HD DVD).
I can understand people pitching their stuff in the best light but coming here and repeatedly lying about this stuff (and it is a flat-out lie as they have been told and shown this stuff on numerous other discussions) is just not on and only worthy of contempt.
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|Trying to quibble over which currently available BD player is the best is like trying to compare which is the best way to get venereal disease...
You're still stuck with VD in the end.
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|I have just bought into the High Definition Movie player market, and I bought my player based purely on picture quality. I tried several Blu-Ray players and the PS3(a friend's), but ultimately the best picture was the HD-DVD player.
The picture was truly incredible. Even to a non-expert like me, the difference was extremely obvious. What really blew me away was that I didn't even have to buy the top end HD-DVD player either. The Toshiba HD-A2 gave me a much superior picture to the BDPS300 from Sony, and at less than half the price to boot.(yes I know the sony is 1080p and the toshiba A2 is 1080i but seriously, the Toshiba still looks superior.)
I used the BBC Documentary "Planet Earth" to test both options, and HD-DVD was the clear winner. I watch movies on the Panasonic 50" 1080p Plasma TH-50PZ700U and even then, the difference was extremely noticeable. I might have chosen differently if the screen had been larger. After viewing the Documentary in both 1080i and 1080p I concluded no difference. Not even when paused and inspected with a magnifying glass. ( and yes I used HDMI cables to test them)
The Toshiba HD-A2 sells on sale for 249.99 and absolutely crushes every other option out there. At that price, who cares if HD-DVD fails, if nothing else I have a very good up-converting DVD player.
Also, I performed the firmware update (ver 2.5) and now the player loads just as fast as a regular DVD player, and gives me access to online content right on my TV. I just don't see what all the fuss is about. The price is very low, the picture amazing, and the ease of use is stellar.
My guess is if the regular public finds out about this, the war will very soon be over, and not in Blu-Ray's favor.
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|"yes I know the sony is 1080p and the toshiba A2 is 1080i"
- If you have a TV with a native resolution of 1920x1080 it will display that 1080i input progressively anyways.
If you don't then 1080p is meaningless to you as your TV cannot display it.
.....not that the Sopny/PS3/Blu-ray spec-sheet jockeys care to admit such things as they try and slam the Toshiba HD A1/A2/A3 or any of the coming less expensive 1080i Chinese players.
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|Just get the LG player that supports both formats and be done with it ;)
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|"- If you have a TV with a native resolution of 1920x1080 it will display that 1080i input progressively anyways"
Thanks Hokuspokus,
I was wondering why I didn't see a difference in the 1080i and 1080p inputs. Makes me wonder how this industry gets away with it. Now I have a few obnoxiously opinionated sales-people to re-educate : )
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|"Just get the LG player that supports both formats and be done with it ;)"
I know you are being humorous with this comment, but I still want to respond seriously.
I get that concept. If I could have found a dual player in my area that was under $900 I probably would have. There are still one or two titles on Blu-ray I would have liked to be able to play. For right now I'll save the $650 difference from the dual player, and wait until Blu-Ray comes down a lot in price. I'll buy a separate Blu-ray when it drops in price, and be further ahead.
The point is, I only paid $250 bucks and I already have beautiful HD movies to enjoy on my screen. Though I do admit I probably would have bought a Blu-ray machine IF it had a better looking picture than HD. Somehow I would have justified the $550 price tag if that had been the case.
Seriously though, a dual player at a greater cost than buying separately both the Blu-ray AND HD-DVD players. I could never justify that. I do agree with your concept though. And I stand corrected if there is an LG Player at $550 or less. If there is, then I didn't find it for sale in my area.
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