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HD DVD and Blu-ray: Toward an Endgame

By Scott M. Fulton, III, BetaNews

September 26, 2007, 3:56 PM

(continued from previous page)

For more manufacturers to want to attempt the dual-format console option at prices that will be risky for them to manage at first, the aggregate number of titles for both high-def formats will need to be reasonably high - a respectable percentage of the number of DVD titles. But for studios to want to invest more in publishing new titles, they'll want to see not only more manufacturer interest but more consumer interest. So far, from each side's perspective, the other side hasn't shown enough interest.

That's the conundrum that NPD's Ross Rubin has been studying. Given that dual-format players are still perceived as new products, perhaps the earliest they'll mature for manufacturers to consider launching discounts will be the holiday season of 2009.

ROSS RUBIN, Director of Industry Analysis for Consumer Electronics, NPD Group: A number of these factors could converge. If you fast-forward maybe two holiday seasons from now, and you have that [dual-format] deck at $500 - which is not unreasonable, the cost of components should benefit from increasing scale, then we'll see growth from Blu-ray and HD DVD as a premium - you're either going to have that deck at $500 with maybe 40% or 50% HDTV penetration, and a stronger flow of titles coming from the studios, or you'll probably be close to the point where you can buy both a Blu-ray player and an HD DVD player for about that price. So if dual-format drives don't win in the marketplace, decreasing costs will make buying two drives a possibility.

The best we can do is look at the precedents. Probably one of the best precedents is the SACD and DVD Audio war, where neither format was able to supplant the compact disc, which was a very strong legacy competitor. Toward the end of the [lifecycle] as prices dropped, we saw dual-format drives emerge in the marketplace, but they didn't have the impact that digital distribution did, and again in another two or three years, that's where the up-and-coming threat is coming from.

There's this window of opportunity for high-definition discs that is sandwiched on one side between standard definition DVD, and on the other side by digital distribution. Very similar to what we saw in audio.

SCOTT FULTON: And that window, if digital distribution manages to come up with a secure, manageable business model for itself...Maybe there comes a time when the optical disc itself will have been out-evolved, and that window will already be closed for it.

ROSS RUBIN: You know, we've seen lots of people talk about the death of optical for a long time.

SCOTT FULTON: I think I wrote that six or seven years ago.

ROSS RUBIN: And perhaps this is the last generation of movies distributed via disc. I've spoken to at least one company that is looking to do a future optical format, hundreds of gigabytes on a disc, and they are not targeting movies as an application for their technology. But some of that may have to do with production issues as much as market issues.

Right now, we're at about roughly 50% broadband penetration in the US. We're seeing telcos adopt various fiber implementations to increase available bandwidth, we're seeing cable companies respond to that with their own fiber initiatives and switch cable and DOCSIS 3.0, increase available capacity. So it's certainly going to become more viable in the future, where we're already seeing a couple of companies - Apple, Microsoft, VUDU - look at distributing movies via IP, and in terms of migrating that to HD, it's a simple tradeoff for download time.

So by the time dual-format disc players will have matured enough to make them attractive to the 73% who would otherwise be just fine with upconverting their old DVDs, thank you very much, the window of opportunity for high-def disc may have already been slammed shut by IP distribution. Unless...someone plays a wildcard and the whole game changes.

SCOTT FULTON: A couple of weeks ago, I explored the option that was being posed by the new entry of these Chinese manufacturers, who are building these CH-DVDs that are mechanically the same as HD DVDs, except without the codecs and the licensing. They can be made compatible just by putting a chip or two in there and selling them to the American market, and conceivably at a fairly low price. That could radically reduce the price of HD DVD even further, maybe to the $150 mark by the end of next year...Does this finally break the logjam?

ROSS RUBIN: I wish I could remember back to the growth of the DVD, at what point penetration we were at when we really started seeing the Apexes and the Cyberhomes come in and spur the race to the $29 DVD player that's available today. I believe that the market had developed a bit more than this market has, where a cheap DVD player merely serves to accelerate the market, because here there are a lot of other issues at play, and even for someone who is satisfied with their DVD player, $100 is rather expensive when you have that option of the $40 or $60 replacement DVD player.

So it could spur some momentum on the HD DVD side, particularly with this promise of more exclusive titles becoming available.

SCOTT FULTON: But you're saying the market here in high-def has to ripen a little more before an accelerant like a cheap HD DVD player would take root?

ROSS RUBIN: It's difficult to say. It's certainly more complex than it was in the standard-def market. But yes, that's my theory, that there are broader issues beyond price right now. Price will certainly help, but I still maintain that the number one issue is competition with the legacy format, although part of that is the inexpensive availability of standard definition DVD players. Perhaps if there's a $150 HD DVD player on the market, the consumer - when that device finally breaks - will go into the store and say, "You know what, for fifty dollars more, I can get something that will play these high-quality movies, or something that will better complement my HDTV."

SCOTT FULTON: When the decision is forced upon the consumer, finally that extra leap won't seem so far.

ROSS RUBIN: Right, today there's a much bigger price gap. But remember, the content has to be there, and the Blu-ray camp would counter, first of all, that they too will be coming out with less expensive players. Are people really going to buy a player, no matter how cheap it is, that they can't watch Disney movies on, at least not in high-def?

SCOTT FULTON: Given that scenario, then, isn't there, economically speaking, an artificial price bottom, if you will, for the dual-format player, where it can't descend any further in price than a certain amount - maybe $350 or thereabouts - because of the fact that there are single-format players that will sell for less? And because of that, there won't be that easy leap from the DVD player that finally broke that I took back to the store and they couldn't repair -

ROSS RUBIN: Unless consumers throw up their hands at the format war, and [dual-format] is the only device that they'll buy, and those products will have a scale advantage [and] a volume advantage in the marketplace that stand-alone players won't really be seeing. I'd say that's exactly what we saw in the recordable DVD war. Where today, just about any product you can buy is dual-format, it writes to both [DVD+RW] and [DVD-RW] recordable DVDs.

But that was a little different, because it was primarily a PC-based product. The volumes in the consumer electronics decks are relatively low - about 10% of the market.

SCOTT FULTON: So there are still a lot of "if's," but there is in your mind a possible positive scenario, positive outcome for everybody involved, if they hop on all the right sides of the "if's."

ROSS RUBIN: Well, you know, whether it's positive is a question of perspective. It certainly still wouldn't be optimal, because you still wouldn't get the price advantages or the volume/scale advantages that you'd have with a unified format. Dual-format is probably the next best optimal scenario, but one that enables each side to collect its IP licensing royalties.

SCOTT FULTON: Where the money actually is, and that's the reason we still have this war.

ROSS RUBIN: Absolutely.

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By Hocuspokus

posted Oct 1, 2007 - 10:03 AM

Word just in.

Sammsung have cancelled their 'high end' BDP2400 and their dual format BDP5000 is delayed (no date given for it's release as of yet).

http://www.highdefdigest...Dual-Format_Player/1020

Score: 0

By Hocuspokus

edited Sep 28, 2007 - 5:51 PM

let's see the Blu-ray shills respond to this one
(it's a real scary beauty, check out the future Blu-ray has in-store for us folks"......

"BD-MV playback at HD quality has very strict copy protection integrated and managed by the Advanced
Access Content System License Administrator (AACS LA), and software manufacturers are required to
include the AACS key management in the play back software.

These AACS play back keys are only valid for a predefined and limited period of time. Customers
generally have to buy new AACS keys every 15 months.


With the Plextor PX-B900A/T3KB the customer can playback BD movies produced until April 2009.
To play back movies produced after April 2009, the customer has to purchase a renewal of the key.
"


http://www.plextor.be/pr...sheets/Plextor_AACS.pdf

- Read that carefully and digest.

They are keeping very very quiet about the full implications of their DRM BS.

.....and for those shills here who want to pretend this is the same version of the AACS system as HD DVD uses then I challenge you to produce a similar warning in an official HD DVD document.
You can't cos it isn't.
HD DVD does not use the exact same AACS system.

It's just another very good reason to keep well away from BD.

Score: 0

By Talkstr8t

posted Oct 2, 2007 - 2:54 PM

Sorry, Hocus, you're wrong. Blu-ray and HD DVD have both signed up to almost identical AACS terms, especially involving key revocation and such. Blu-ray adds BD+ and BD-ROM watermarking, neither of which are AACS technologies nor are related to what you've posted.

Just because none of the HD DVD companies have disclosed the information Plextor did doesn't mean they don't have the same process.

Score: 0

By Talkstr8t

edited Oct 2, 2007 - 4:58 AM

Hey, HocusPokus, the "Blu-ray shills" response to your scare-mongering is to point out that HD DVD uses the *exact same AACS technology*. If Blu-ray keys have to be renewed so will HD DVD keys.

Score: 0

By Metfanant

edited Sep 28, 2007 - 4:21 PM

you guys are useless...

and ok...so you posted the HD-DVD has more movies available...fair enough...i can see where you got your numbers from (one of your links is dead btw)...but now explain BD's software sales lead even though they have sold more set top boxes, and have more content to offer...hmm...and don't use the PS3 argument because its stupid and not valid...

my Honda/Daewoo comparison is JUST like your argument...you said that Blu-ray only has a sales lead because of the PS3...and I say Honda only sells more cars because of the Accord...according to your logic they are both perfectly valid arguments...but both equally stupid...and the 360 add on...it DOESNT MATTER if there are less of them...its a the simple fact that HD-DVD is not selling as well as BD...period...

the whole problem with your arguments is nearly everything is based on your "more likely" stance...that crap doesn't hold water man...but ill pass you another shovel...the one your using to dig your hole is probably getting worn out by now....

about the underdog thing...again you posted a useless article and failed reading comprehension 101 at the same time...but you know that, so i don't need to point out your stupidity again...and about the one week thing...movies tend to be released on tuesdays no? well the after the 18th there is only 1 tuesday left in the week...therefore my comment...

and now onto the rest...

even though you have no valid counter argument to my comments about the rest of the electronics industry i will still respond to what you said...

TV's without HDMI are def. a valid point here...HDMI allows for the transfer of 1080p video, and uncompressed audio over the same digital cable...I would say this is an advantage to anyone who has it...or what about the people who have HDMI but not HDMI 1.3 support...where are your posts attacking TV manufacturers for not implementing these things from the get go?...

and about the audio receivers...it doesn't matter that the receiver was not advertised to do something it cannot...the PS3 or any blu-ray player for that matter are not advertised as being able to support anything other than whats on the market right now...they play the movies...and will continue to play movies regardless of being able to take advantage of the newest features...Sony doesnt label the box as 1.1 compliant when its not...so audio receivers are the same ball game...if i spend $1000 on a receiver...and it doesnt have the capability to pass audio and video over HDMI or allow video upscaling...and then the next week a receiver comes out for $900 that does this...should I be pissed at the manufacturer? No, of course not...again, its the price you pay for being an early adopter...

and again...you assume the 51GB disc's will work...yet nail BD "shills" for assuming that BD players can be updated via firmware...you're in the same boat...really just hoping your assumptions are true...

BD is not piggy backing on a game console...its more a situation where a game console happened to be the cheapest and most advanced BD player on the market at the time...at the PS3's launch...why pay $900 for a BD player when you could get a more advanced BD player and a next gen gaming console for $600...no contest there if you ask me...not to mention that from day 1 the PS3 has not only been marketed as a gaming console but as a blu-ray player therefore making it more likely for consumers to make that purchase than it was for say someone to make an original xbox or ps3 their sole dvd player. Those were gaming consoles with DVD playback...the PS3 is being marketed as a home theater centerpiece...not just a gaming console with BD playback...

720p/1080i TV's sure do have a problem with 1080p signals...they can't play them...

and you mention that they will still have playback...SO WILL THE BD PLAYERS...they just wont be able to use the newer features on the disc's (unless somehow BD finds a way around it)...

this is a useless argument...because you cannot see that your arguments have very little validity...i don't think ill be responding to this anymore...so see ya

Score: 0

By mshulman

posted Sep 30, 2007 - 1:24 PM

First, I question where blu-ray would be today without the PS3. If game consoles had nothing to do with HD DVD or Blu-ray, I think it would be much closer and likely HD DVD would be in the lead. So we can and should point to the PS3 as why Blu-ray is in the lead.

I will ask this question though - With all the good news for blu-ray (prior to Paramount announcement), why did blu-ray not get a big gain over HD DVD? Target, Blockbuster..etc were all big announcements, yet the ratio pretty much stayed 2:1 in favor of blu-ray.

Now.. on to triple layer and profiles. From everything that I've seen, it appears the triple layer HD DVD's will work in existing players. There's not much evidence to prove either way right now, except for what Toshiba and others are saying.

With the profiles, its a different story. You can cleary look at what each profile requires and see that most stand alone blu-ray players do not have the necessary hardware to support it. Such as the space requirement and others. PS3 is likely the only player that can be upgraded. I think this is a big downside to blu-ray today. Maybe not for the early adopters, but certainly for a new consumer buying it today, not knowing their kids won't be able to enjoy the interactive features on future discs.

Final thought - I see the big advantages to blu-ray being its disc size in the data world. For High Def Movies, it just hasn't proven to be the case. HD DVD movies look amazing and if single sided combos (or twins as they are called) are viable, then I see HD DVD as being the better format to replace DVD. And I think more important than all the specs everyone talks about are which format can easily replace DVD. This would be HD DVD. Blu-ray boasts better bitrates, larger space, which can lead to uncompressed audio..etc, but these are not benefits that most people will enjoy. I'd speculate that maybe 5% of all consumers might have the equipment that would allow them to hear a difference in uncompressed vs. DD+ and I'd say far fewer could see a difference between a HD DVD and Blu-ray both encoded at their highest bitrate. Even audio experts (you know, the guys that do this for a living and hear the masters, let alone the uncompressed copies), have stated they can't tell the difference in most cases between DD+ and uncompressed.

I think the big key is that all of us that own one format or the other (or both as I do) really want all the movies in High Def. I have always believed that HD DVD provided the best way to do this since it is the most easily adopted by DVD owners.

Score: 0

By yountmj

edited Sep 28, 2007 - 6:59 PM

You know, seriously... not that you may care, but I actually respect you. :)

As far as most of the Blu-ray supporters on this site go, you seem to be one of the rare exceptions, in the sense that you are actually taking the time to debate the finer points... once the mud-slinging and name-calling is over with (of which most everyone here is guilty of occasionally, including myself).

I shall try my best to refrain from personal attacks from now on (even though it's against forum rules in the first place, everyone slips). :)

Sad that you're no longer commenting on this particular topic. I just got home from work and got caught up on you two going at it all day. You both brought up really good points and gave good examples of what you were trying to explain, and I was actually enjoying it. I miss that. It's usually the "You're an idiot! Prove it!" type of back-and-forth responses that I've found are quite easy to get sucked in to. Oh well.

Score: 0

By Hocuspokus

edited Sep 28, 2007 - 8:42 PM

I would have to agree yountmj, a reasonable debate (with the occasional barb, true......but that's hardly going to curl anyone's teeth around here!).

Not the usual and mores the pity for it.

Score: 0

By Hocuspokus

edited Sep 28, 2007 - 8:47 PM

"you guys are useless..."

- But not so "useless" as to be unable to back up what I said.

"and ok...so you posted the HD-DVD has more movies available...fair enough"

- So I take it we can at least agree on that one?

"(one of your links is dead btw)"

- Sadly it happens from time to time, it's now fixed, thanks for letting me know.

http://forums.highdefdig...d.php?p=45960#post45960

"but now explain BD's software sales lead even though they have sold more set top boxes, and have more content to offer...hmm...and don't use the PS3 argument because its stupid and not valid

- Of course it's valid.
Without PS3 Blu-ray has nothing.

There are (depending on who you believe) 4, 5 or 6 million PS3s sold.

It doesn't take a huge fraction of that number to buy BD movies to produce the 'lead' we have seen & can still see.
But it's a shrinking lead (cos as HD DVD stand-alones grow their higher attachment rates come into play) and effectively being a 'on-hit-wonder' BD has shot it's bolt & hasn't got another 'PS3' to rely upon.

Unfortunately for the Blu-ray gang the PS3 game console really is being used just for games a damned sight more than they counted on.

PS3 is a torjan horse but not as good a one as the BD crew imagined.

"my Honda/Daewoo comparison is JUST like your argument"

- No it isn't.

"you said that Blu-ray only has a sales lead because of the PS3...and I say Honda only sells more cars because of the Accord"

- Er no.

The Accord isn't also a guaranteed high selling 'something else' in the way that the PS3 was always guaranteed to be a multi-million unit selling game console - that also can play BD movies.

The analogy doesn't hold.

"...according to your logic they are both perfectly valid arguments...but both equally stupid!"

- Er no, see above.

You're just confusing yourself now.

"and the 360 add on...it DOESNT MATTER if there are less of them...its a the simple fact that HD-DVD is not selling as well as BD...period".

- Actually you asked why "the same doesn't hold true for owners of the XBox 360".

It does in the sense that it is also a game console.

The only reason I made the point about it selling less is that clearly the younger demographic (that equally would apply to the XBox 360) has got to have a lesser impact on the HD DVD side of things because there are less of them.

Sorry if that was not clear and obvious to you, I thought it was.

"the whole problem with your arguments is nearly everything is based on your "more likely" stance."

- Er no.

In terms of a difference that Neilson is missing between walk-in store sales numbers verses on-line sales numbers favouring one side or the other it does.....and it's obvious to anyone who gives this a seconds thought too.

It simply a fact that Neilson stats don't take account of on-line sales, there's nothing 'more likely' about it.

"but ill pass you another shovel...the one your using to dig your hole is probably getting worn out by now."

- Er no; you're the one trying to make claims about what it was I said when I did no such thing
(for instance you tried to say that I had said only kiddies have the PS3 when I said no such thing).

You keep digging tho.

"about the underdog thing...again you posted a useless article and failed reading comprehension 101 at the same time...but you know that, so i don't need to point out your stupidity again...and about the one week thing...movies tend to be released on tuesdays no? well the after the 18th there is only 1 tuesday left in the week...therefore my comment..."

- Blah blah blah.
Petty insult upon rhetoric upon BS.

"even though you have no valid counter argument to my comments about the rest of the electronics industry i will still respond to what you said."

- No.
You a fool desperately trying to conjure up parallels with other other parts of the CE arena and not one of them is a comparable example.

Better luck next time.

"TV's without HDMI are def. a valid point here"

- A high def TV sold without HDMI would have never been advertised implying it would have the benefits of HDMI.

"and about the audio receivers".

- Show me the audio receiver where the advertising implies it will have the advanced features only later receivers could possibly have and I'll conceed the point.

"the PS3 or any blu-ray player for that matter are not advertised as being able to support anything other than whats on the market right now."

- BS

'Advanced features' are a part of the Blu-ray claims (but you have to look very very closely to pick out the very small print that makes the excuses).

"and again...you assume the 51GB disc's will work."

- I have ever reason to expect them to.

Triple layer - like HDi - has been a part of the HD DVD spec since day 1.

"yet nail BD "shills" for assuming that BD players can be updated via firmware...you're in the same boat...really just hoping your assumptions are true".

- No.
It's one thing to know for a fact that triple layering - like HDi - was always part of the HD DVD specs from day 1, which is completely true.
It's quite another to see the Blu-ray shills pretending and/or lying about how you can 'firmware' secondary video decoders or additional memory.

Either you can see this or you can't......and some prefer to pretend not to see it.

"BD is not piggy backing on a game console."

- No. Wrong.
That is exactly what happened and we have a public quote from a Sony exec to show that was their clear intent all along.

From The Guardian, technology section, Thursday March 29 2007

"And the PS3 is going to help us do the job ... Potentially, we'll have 10 times more [Blu-ray] players [in the form of PS3s] out there by the end of the year."

http://www.guardian.co.u...29/sonyplaystation.sony

"its more a situation where a game console happened to be the cheapest and most advanced BD player on the market at the time."

- It a question of why they put a BD player in the PS3 in the first place.
Either you believe the BS & hype or you can believe what the Sony execs later said themselves.

"720p/1080i TV's sure do have a problem with 1080p signals...they can't play them."

- .....and don't give problems to or deny the viewer the content because of it.

"and you mention that they will still have playback...SO WILL THE BD PLAYERS"

- Well Denon say they are still "working very hard" at getting 'profile 1.0' discs and players to work properly with 'profile 1.1' and 'profile 2.0' players and discs.

Quite how good these players remain at BD playback remains to be seen......but it's a fairly good guess that they are having serious problems with it becuase they have postponed it's introduction......what.....4 or 5 times so far?

"they just wont be able to use the newer features on the disc's (unless somehow BD finds a way around it)"

- Now who's guessing?

"im having fun".

- Sure you are.

Score: 0

By Hocuspokus

edited Sep 28, 2007 - 8:45 PM

Especially for all the Blu-ray shills to ponder.

"HD DVD offers the largest amount of actual available, exclusive and potential movie content."

Here's how, these are facts....
(and I've included those little links you Blu-ray shills love so much here) -

(bear in mind these numbers apply in the USA & they have yet to remove the Viacom/Paramount numbers)

http://www.blu-raystats.com/index.php

http://www.hddvdstats.com/index.php

Total available content -

Blu-ray 325

HD DVD 318

Total available exclusive content -

Blu-ray 195

HD DVD 187

Then remove from the Blu-ray total the number of supposedly 'exclusive Blu-ray titles' which are nothing of the sort and which can be sourced on HD DVD internationally cos HD DVD is region-free everytime

See here - http://areahd.dvdtiefpreise.com/?p=109

and here - http://forums.highdefdig...d.php?p=45960#post45960

(link fixed)

(Over 60 titles, but call it 60 for ease of calculation)

This leaves us with -

Blu-ray genuinely exclusive titles = 135

HD DVD genuinely exclusive titles = 187.

(I have heard of 1 HD DVD exclusive available in Japan on Blu-ray - but it could have been photo-shopped, nothing like 60+ tho)

HD DVD has more exclusive content, by far

Then add those same 60 titles to the total number of titles available to HD DVD and
remove the 30 Paramount movies Blu-ray no longer has and the 3 Dreamworks titles
and we are left with -

Blu-ray available content = 292

HD DVD available content = 378.

HD DVD has more available content, by far

Actual available and exclusive content and by that measure HD DVD is clearly far ahead
(and with a further 120+ HD DVD movies just announced by Viacome/Paramount as they really start to ramp up production that can only grow).

.....and given the major and smaller independent studios using HD DVD (cos the costs are lower and replication is available as opposed to being choked with short supply & low availability with BD)
HD DVD also has the largest potential catalogue.

These are the facts that count -
HD DVD offers image and audio quality 2nd to none,
HD DVD has the most content,
HD DVD has the most exclusive content,
HD DVD has the most potential content,
HD DVD offers a proper range of spec & prices,
HD DVD has the lowest entry-level prices,
HD DVD has fully functioning advanced features,
HD DVD has a complete and functioning spec and
HD DVD's 'high end' players (ie the Toshiba HD XA2) are the same price as the under spec'd absolescent Blu-ray entry level players.

......oh, and lest we forget, HD DVD does not have the additional DRM sh*te that Blu-ray is attempting to foist on people

.....and HD DVD is not entirely dependent on a kiddies game console.

Score: 0

By pridewalker

posted Sep 28, 2007 - 6:24 PM

HD DVD add-on: $200 at time of purchase
Importing HD DVD's: Approximately $35 a piece
Watching my brother (A PS3/BR fanboy) brick in his pants when he realized Silent Hill, Ghost Rider, Fantastic Four, Bridge to Terrabithia, and T2 were on HD DVD: priceless

Score: 0

By yountmj

posted Sep 28, 2007 - 8:02 PM

e-Knucks.

Good stuff. :)

Score: 0

By SGD

posted Sep 28, 2007 - 3:19 PM

Thank you very good great effort but they still will not understand.

Score: 0

By yountmj

posted Sep 28, 2007 - 2:53 PM

Thank you, yet again.

I never get tired of reading that. :)

Score: 0

By Hocuspokus

edited Sep 28, 2007 - 5:36 PM

Well the numbers get updated each time I post it so as of today those are the corect figures.

Score: 0

By Metfanant

edited Sep 28, 2007 - 1:51 PM

I also love how its just kiddies that own PS3's or Blu-ray discs so they can't be buying online...but the same doesn't hold true for owners of the 360 add on buying HD-DVD's :::rolls eyes again:::

or the fact that just because the older more sophisticated HD-DVD owner has a credit card...therefore they will be buying all of their HD-DVD's online...give me a break!...if you can't show me any hard evidence of this (and you can't) then you can't use it as an argument...unless you want to continue to sound like an idiot...

How is the underdog thing a big deal?...its the LAST movie being released on blu-ray in 2007...its being released on December 18th!...That is ONE week before the end of 2007...that shows nothing...just that you are taking two pieces of bread and trying to pass it off as a sandwich...

your arguments against blu-ray hold little water...yes HD-DVD did the RIGHT thing by including this stuff in 1st gen players...but this is the price one pays for early adoption...you totally ignore the constant upgrades that go on in the HDTV world What are your feelings for those who have HDTV's without HDMI ports? should they be pissed off? or those with older TV's that just support 1080i but have to downscale 720p signals to SD resolutions...

or the audio world (receivers with new features are released weekly)

or the PC world (do i even need to explain that one?) and concentrate solely on this because of your blind hatred for Sony...its comical...go stare at your Bill Gates poster some more man....its sad...

what about Microsoft adding all sorts of new features to the xbox 360?...is it possible that they rushed an unfinished product to the market...and then over time have released new sku's with features they wanted all along (HDMI, bigger hard drives) and in turn screwing early adopters of their console...hmm...couldn't be...only Sony would do such a thing...

"HD DVD offers the largest amount of actual available, exclusive and potential movie content."

proof?....yeah....

and i love this argument...

".....oh and
" blu-ray is selling more than HD-DVD"?

That's totally down to the PS3, not actually 'Blu-ray' as such.

But HD DVD stand-alones are selling fast and that can only continue as prices fall ever-lower."

BAH! thats like saying Honda sells more cars than Daewoo ONLY because it has the Accord...or coke only sells better than pepsi because it tastes better!...

well christ...if that isn't the worst argument i've ever heard...lets see...sales numbers should be thrown out because its only because of the PS3...it can't be because upon release the PS3 was not only the cheapest, but most advanced BD player on the market...hmm...i think so...

Score: 0

By Hocuspokus

edited Sep 28, 2007 - 8:47 PM

"I also love how its just kiddies that own PS3's or Blu-ray discs so they can't be buying online...but the same doesn't hold true for owners of the 360 add on buying HD-DVD's"

- Do you have issues understanding the term "more likely"?

Where did I ever say "just" the kiddies own PS3s?

Comparisons with the XBox 360 HD DVD add-on tend to fail cos there are less of them, I'd have thought that much was obvious, shill.

"or the fact that just because the older more sophisticated HD-DVD owner has a credit card...therefore they will be buying all of their HD-DVD's online...give me a break!"

- There's that problem with the point about what is "more likely" again.

"...if you can't show me any hard evidence of this (and you can't) then you can't use it as an argument"

- An obvious truth remains an obvious truth.

It is undeniable that the PS3 has - overall - a younger demographic compared to the wider a/v market and that therefore it is highly likely that what I have said is correct.

"...unless you want to continue to sound like an idiot..."

- No, you're doing fine working away on that one yorself.

"How is the underdog thing a big deal?...its the LAST movie being released on blu-ray in 2007...its being released on December 18th!...That is ONE week before the end of 2007

- No it isn't.

Go look at a calander.

......then ask yourself where that supposedly big Blu-ray backers 2008 schedule is.

"your arguments against blu-ray hold little water"

- But plenty enough to get you with your panties in a major twist tho, eh?

" What are your feelings for those who have HDTV's without HDMI ports?"

- Er, no, what are you on about?

That's nothing like the same thing.

Those with a non-HDMI TV lose out on nothing ad their TV was never advertised as if they could enjoy something you had to have HDMI to enjoy.

"or those with older TV's that just support 1080i but have to downscale 720p signals to SD resolutions..."

- Again a laughably poor analogy.

Neither 720p nor 1080i have problems with a 1080p signal (no-one is broadcasting anyways) and 720p/1080i TVs do not stop the viewer seeing video/program content.

Nor does it lock up or cause major problems for their kit as 'profile 1.1' and 'profile 2.0' discs may well do on existing BD players.

"or the audio world (receivers with new features are released weekly)"

- You might have a point if the old receivers were advertised on the grounds that they might offer something they cannot.

Leave it out with the ill-fitting parallels, they're all so far just not applicable or similar at all.

"or the PC world (do i even need to explain that one?)"

- I'd love it if you did.
Just what in the PC do you imagine is a direct parallel to this and why?

"concentrate solely on this because of your blind hatred for Sony"

- No, I'll leave the feelings of emotion for CE corporations to you guys.
You can 'love' or 'hate' a CE companys all you like.

"go stare at your Bill Gates poster some more man....its sad"

- Naaa, what's sad is the way you invariably give yourself away and continually insist this is a PS3 v XBox360 & a Sony v Microsoft thing.

"what about Microsoft adding all sorts of new features to the xbox 360?"

- You know I could care less about your game consoles.

I'm into a/v, not computer games so mostly all that pro PS3 anti-XBox 360 stuff is just a bore to me.

"HD DVD offers the largest amount of actual available, exclusive and potential movie content."

- It does indeed and I have shown how several times here already.

But just for you.....

Enjoy -

Here's how, these are facts....
and I've included those little links you Blu-ray shills love so much here -

(and bear in mind these numbers apply in the USA & they have yet to remove the Viacom/Paramount numbers)

http://www.blu-raystats.com/index.php

http://www.hddvdstats.com/index.php

Total available content -

Blu-ray 325

HD DVD 318

Total available exclusive content -

Blu-ray 195

HD DVD 187

Then remove from the Blu-ray total the number of supposedly 'exclusive Blu-ray titles' which are nothing of the sort and which can be sourced on HD DVD internationally cos HD DVD is region-free everytime

See here - http://areahd.dvdtiefpreise.com/?p=109

and here - http://forums.highdefdig...d.php?p=45960#post45960

(link fixed)

(Over 60 titles, but call it 60 for ease of calculation)

This leaves us with -

Blu-ray genuinely exclusive titles = 135

HD DVD genuinely exclusive titles = 187.

(I have heard of 1 HD DVD exclusive available in Japan on Blu-ray - but it could have been photo-shopped, nothing like 60+ tho)

HD DVD has more exclusive content, by far

Then add those same 60 titles to the total number of titles available to HD DVD and
remove the 30 Paramount movies Blu-ray no longer has and the 3 Dreamworks titles
and we are left with -

Blu-ray available content = 292

HD DVD available content = 378.

HD DVD has more available content, by far

Stop trying to play stupid sad little pathetic number games with the number of studios - 'number of studios', ffs how ludicrous can you get - you're wrong on that anyways as has been pointed out.

The real point is content.

Actual available and exclusive content and by that measure HD DVD is clearly far ahead
(and with a further 120+ HD DVD movies just announced by Viacome/Paramount as they really start to ramp up production that can only grow).

.....and given the major and smaller independent studios using HD DVD (cos the costs are lower and replication is available as opposed to being choked with short supply & low availability with BD)
HD DVD also has the largest potential catalogue.

These are the facts that count -
HD DVD offers image and audio quality 2nd to none,
HD DVD has the most content,
HD DVD has the most exclusive content,
HD DVD has the most potential content,
HD DVD offers a proper range of spec & prices,
HD DVD has the lowest entry-level prices,
HD DVD has fully functioning advanced features,
HD DVD has a complete and functioning spec and
HD DVD's 'high end' players (ie the Toshiba HD XA2) are the same price as the under spec'd absolescent Blu-ray entry level players.

......oh, and lest we forget, HD DVD does not have the additional DRM sh*te that Blu-ray is attempting to foist on people

.....and HD DVD is not entirely dependent on a f*cking game console.

"proof?"

- I have provided the proof once again. Suck it up.

thats like saying Honda sells more cars than Daewoo ONLY because it has the Accord."

- Er no.
It's saying that piggy-backing on a game console makes the case a little different than if we were just discussing stand-alone players.

Obviously you also have trouble with this clearly different circumstance.

"sales numbers should be thrown out because its only because of the PS3."

- Where did I ever say that?

I have said that the PS3 gave Blu-ray a short-term (but actually deeply uinimpressive, considering the numbers sold) movie disc sales lead.

I have never said disregard those figures entirely because of the PS3.
But I have said taking account of how the truth is that Blu-ray = PS3 it is in a long-term sense a very weak base Blu-ray has built upon and one that will be over-taken and left trailing permanently as HD DVD sales numbers rise and rise
(as they are doing week in week out while Blu-ray's single 'card' the PS3 has been played and it now sells poorly and continues to push BD movies at a slow pace).

Score: 0

By Metfanant

posted Sep 28, 2007 - 1:26 PM

show me where I ever said that HD-DVD was an inferior product...I've NEVER used those words...

oh you know plenty of people who prefer HD-DVD? please...thats a real scientific answer...i can say i know plenty of people who prefer blu-ray (and at least I have software sales numbers to back that up!)

when we finally see the 51GB discs, or when any studio decides to put a movie on this mythical disc we shall see if it actually works in the current players (wouldn't that throw a wrench in your anti blu-ray arguments).

And where is this long list of real stinkers? I know The Fifth Element was terrible and then was re-released and the second release is rather impressive...and regardless this does not show an issue with the format itself, more a crap transfer, or bad encoding...this is an issue with who is putting the movie ON the disc...not the format itself for example the Pirates movies are absolutely STUNNING on blu-ray...

anyone who is not a fanboy will admit that picture qualities are nearly identical...

notice i said could be CONFUSED for superior...meaning if you were to say its superior, you would be wrong...your grasp of the English language is spot on!

and the extras...idc if they are "different" than DVD extras...I don't need or want all that crap...I want the movie...thats why i bought the film was to watch the movie...not see pretty extras...

Score: 0

By Hocuspokus

posted Sep 28, 2007 - 1:53 PM

"show me where I ever said that HD-DVD was an inferior product...I've NEVER used those words..."

- Of course not, you just prefer to insinuate it as you did in your last posting.

"oh you know plenty of people who prefer HD-DVD? please...thats a real scientific answer."

- Er, I never said otherwise, but I did point out, correctly, that it is the Blu-ray side that have had the list of very disappointing movies that have had to be re-done.

"when we finally see the 51GB discs, or when any studio decides to put a movie on this mythical disc we shall see if it actually works in the current players (wouldn't that throw a wrench in your anti blu-ray arguments)."

- Er no, actually.

Although it iwll be amusing to see some of the pi$sing rights removed from the Sony/PS3/Blu-ray fanclub it would be absurd to pretend that HD DVD 'needs' 51gb......as so many excellent 30gb transfers show very very clearly.

"And where is this long list of real stinkers? I know The Fifth Element was terrible and then was re-released"

- Then you want to look harder.

There were more than a few.

" and the second release is rather impressive"

- LMAO.

It's better but it's hardly "impressive".

Have you seen the screenshots?
It's still very 'blocky' in places.

" this does not show an issue with the format itself, more a crap transfer, or bad encoding...this is an issue with who is putting the movie ON the disc...not the format itself for example the Pirates movies are absolutely STUNNING on blu-ray..."

- Wow, so the truth is dawning on some.

You see the truth is that I have never said there are no decent (or even excellent) Blu-ray transfers.

My beef is with the idiot crowd who pretend (usually on a poor understanding of the spec sheets) that Blu-ray must be superior to HD DVD.
It isn't.

It is also loaded with DRM which makes it well worth steering well clear of IMO.

Score: 0

By Metfanant

posted Sep 28, 2007 - 2:00 PM

again, i've NEVER said Blu-ray was superior...and as far as I'm concerned they are of equal quality...both have small pros and cons that the average consumer will never notice or care about...

if the new discs don't work in the old players it would most certainly hurt your arguments against blu-ray...considering your big argument is that older players can't use the new features...but they will at least be able to play the movie...

its all about the transfers in the HD world...HD-DVD's are just as likely to have bad transfers...i guess you could say they have just been lucky enough to avoid that up to this point...luck of the draw i guess...it really has nothing to do with either format...just the actual transferring of the film itself...

Score: 0

By Hocuspokus

edited Sep 28, 2007 - 1:15 PM

LMAO. Look who spoke too soon.

"Hit a nerve"

FFS, still using the infants guide to trolling huh?

BTW just in case you missed it -

HD DVD offers the largest amount of actual available, exclusive and potential movie content.

Score: 0

By Metfanant

edited Sep 28, 2007 - 12:52 PM

and of course...no real response...as expected...

who's mouth am i putting words into??

I never said HD-DVD was inferior to Blu-ray...Blu-ray I believe supports higher bitrate video codecs, so that could be confused for superior...but in reality as far as what you see on your screen, and hear from your speakers...its just about identical...and i would bet that none of us would be able to tell the difference...

HD-DVD has more interactive features right now...but i couldn't care less...i buy a movie to watch the movie...i don't care about a movie commentary with a pip feature stuck on my screen with the actors or directors making comments...i hate that crap...give me the movie...give me some delete scenes...some behind the scenes footage...a blooper reel or something and im set...i don't give two $H*T$ about fancy menus and what not...just want to watch the movie...

oh and Hocus...i was not throwing tantrums....just trying to do my best Hollywood impression....must have gotten it pretty good to hit a nerve with you...

Score: 0

By Hocuspokus

edited Sep 28, 2007 - 1:05 PM

"and of course...no real response...as expected..."

- Oh dear, couldn't help yourself leaping up to make a t*t of yourself again I see.

Like I said, you guys have had that covered for months.

"I never said HD-DVD was inferior to Blu-ray...Blu-ray I believe supports higher bitrate video codecs"

- Wrong.

Blu-ray supports the exact same 3 codecs that HD DVD does.

When we get the 51gb TL disc we will also see that it is HD DVD that has the highest peak raw bit-rate (@54Mbps).

(like as if that is the only consideration.....but like I said to the superficial idiot spec-sheet jockeys it's all that counts)

You see this is what is so hilarious, you guys don't even know the subject like you pretend to.

"so that could be confused for superior"

- Only by the sort of superficial ignorant spec-sheet jockey that dominates the Blu-ray fanclub.

"but in reality as far as what you see on your screen, and hear from your speakers...its just about identical"

- Except that it's Blu-ray that has the list of real stinkers, not HD DVD.
Stinkers so bad that they have had to re-do and re-release some of them.

"i would bet that none of us would be able to tell the difference..."

- Says you.
Why is that?
Cos I know plenty that have both and express a clear preference for HD DVD.

"HD-DVD has more interactive features right now...but i couldn't care less...i buy a movie to watch the movie...i don't care about a movie commentary with a pip feature stuck on my screen with the actors or directors making comments...i hate that crap"

- Which just goes to show how little you guys know about it.

The extras HD DVD has are not the same as the extras DVD has atm.

Score: 0

By SGD

posted Sep 28, 2007 - 12:42 PM

Sony was supposed to have that stuff working to but they didn't so they make you upgrade that is nice of them. That part is complete garbage and you know it. Oh and stop putting words into peoples mouths which you seem good at.

Score: 0

By Hocuspokus

posted Sep 28, 2007 - 12:37 PM

Rather than throw a rather infantile tantrums on the matter and casting up the most ludicrous comparisons going perhaps the Blu-ray fanclub might like to consider how come the (according to them) 'inferior' HD DVD can have fully functional 'advanced features' from day 1 (over 1 1/2 years ago) and their beloved still can't.

Score: 0

By Metfanant

edited Sep 28, 2007 - 12:33 PM

haha....Hocuspokus....you're a straight up idiot...

"as it can be reasonably expected that more HD DVD order on-line."

bahaha! proof? yeah thought so...there is none...moron...i dont understand why only HD-DVD's get ordered online, but PS3 owners can't order their blu-ray's online?? that makes no sense and is a total crock...your grasping my friend...grasping for something that just isn't there...

and I loved your response to the Disney thing...when the article says NOTHING about Disney not releasing anymore blu-ray's...just the fact that Underdog would be the last release of 2007...

I guess Disney's blu-ray Mall Tour thing that has been going on since August and runs through the end of December really is showcasing their wavering stance in blu-ray :::rolls eyes:::

and about the blu-ray players...even if the newer interactive features do not work on the older players they players are still going to function exactly as they do now...which is play movies...

and remember this....you guys always like to point out that even though blu-ray has a good sized software lead that it is such a small percentage of the population...and this is right, because anyone with HD-DVD or Blu-ray movies is what the industry would consider an early adopter, or enthusiast...now...what Home theater enthusiasts plan to keep their DVD/HD-DVD/Blu-ray/anything players for a really long time without upgrading?....

yes, sure HD-DVD was smart to include all of these features from the get go...but have we still not gotten confirmation about the new 51GB discs working on the old players yet? But even still, how long do you expect the enthusiasts to keep their old, 1st gen HD-DVD players anyway? They will surely want to upgrade their players sooner rather than later...this issue, won't become an issue until the general public adopts an HD format...

your only real argument also just happens to be something that goes on in every portion of the electronics business...

My Samsung HDTV displays 1080i and 720p resolutions, but not 1080p...DOWN WITH SAMSUNG FOR NOT INCLUDING 1080P IN ALL OF THEIR HDTV'S FROM THE GET GO!!!

My Intel P4 630 is only a single core cpu...DOWN WITH INTEL FOR NOT INCLUDING 3 MORE CORES FROM THE GET GO AND UNLOCKING THEM AT A LATER TIME!!!

How bout Stereo receivers...oh no..a $1000 receiver that only allows HDMI video, I need to use optical for the audio...DOWN WITH DENON FOR NOT INCLUDING FULL HDMI 1.3 AUDIO SUPPORT FROM THE GET GO!!!!

DOWN WITH EVERY PC MANUFACTURER EVER BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T INCLUDE 52x CD ROMS IN EVERY COMPUTER FROM THE GET GO!! BAHH!!!

your argument is not really an argument when it comes to electronics...

while I agree that it would have been nice for the blu-ray camp to include all of these features from the get go they didn't...and its not realistic to imagine them not releasing new features down the road that maybe older players cannot handle...same goes for HD-DVD....but it doesn't change the fact that the older players should still be able to play the movies...just not take advantage of some of the various features...it also doesn't change the fact that blu-ray is selling more than HD-DVD...and doesn't seem to be slowing down...

Score: 0

By Hocuspokus

edited Sep 28, 2007 - 1:14 PM

"haha....Hocuspokus....you're a straight up idiot..."

- Don't be modest, you and the rest of the Sony/PS3/Blu-ray shill crowd have had that covered for months. :P

i dont understand why only HD-DVD's get ordered online, but PS3 owners can't order their blu-ray's online?? that makes no sense and is a total crock...your grasping my friend...grasping for something that just isn't there..."

- Clearly it is beyond your to grasp that the kiddies game console demographic is likely to have less credit card/bank account holding adults who would be more likely to order on-line.
I did not say none, but less would be likely.

Maybe that's too difficult an obvious truth for you guys to admit, huh?

"I loved your response to the Disney thing...when the article says NOTHING about Disney not releasing anymore blu-ray's...just the fact that Underdog would be the last release of 2007."

- Which for a supposedly big supporter of BD is unusual IMO given the timing.

"and about the blu-ray players...even if the newer interactive features do not work on the older players they players are still going to function exactly as they do now...which is play movies."

- What do you mean "even".
They won't.
Period.
They don't have the necessary hardware.

You might think it's ok conning people over those supposedly 'advanced features' they're advertising them with but I bet a lot of those paying the (double the price compared to HD DVD) premium might well give a damn that their expensive new toy not only cannot play those features but......

.......it will also not go down well if they continue to have serious problems with the 'profile 1.1' and 'profile 2.0' discs - if they even appear.

"have we still not gotten confirmation about the new 51GB discs working on the old players yet?"

- We'll all be seeing that one soon enough.

IIRC the comment from CEDIA was gen 2 & 3 "definitely" are ok with the 51gb TL disc and gen 1 is 80% likely to be ok
(and if so then a voucher replacement scheme would run to help make the change easy & painless).
We'll all see soon enough.

"But even still, how long do you expect the enthusiasts to keep their old, 1st gen HD-DVD players anyway?"

- I doubt it's anything like the 'problem' the Sony/PS3/Blu-ray fanclub want to pretend it is.

"your only real argument also just happens to be something that goes on in every portion of the electronics business..."

- Er, no.

The argument against Blu-ray is a hell of a lot more than 'just' over-priced and under-spec'd kit.

Blu-rays DRM is an extremely important factor.

....and of course not forgetting that
HD DVD offers the largest amount of actual available, exclusive and potential movie content.

.....oh and
" blu-ray is selling more than HD-DVD"?

That's totally down to the PS3, not actually 'Blu-ray' as such.

But HD DVD stand-alones are selling fast and that can only continue as prices fall ever-lower.

Score: 0

By Hocuspokus

posted Sep 28, 2007 - 8:42 AM

LMAO!

The Sony/PS3/Blu-ray shills are reduced to returning to howling at the moon pretending that Universal is going format neutral in a couple of weeks.

They've had lying 'insiders' pretending that they know some secret info & telling them this garbage since Jan 2007.

When will the ever learn, fools.

......oh and btw Neilson doesn't take account of on-line sales.

That means Neilson has an in-built bias towards the console based demographic of the kiddies & their game consoles (the bulk of PS3 owners) as it can be reasonably expected that more HD DVD order on-line.

Run away again Steve & count the days until your 3 weeks are up.

Score: 0

By Steve Austin

edited Sep 28, 2007 - 3:39 AM

Well we know Betanews are in Microsoft's pocket, and many of the dumba**es that post here are early HD DVD/Xbox adopters keen to ensure their investments don't end up in the trash, so you can take everything you read on BetaNews with a pinch of salt.

The Neilsen numbers don't show stalemate at all, they show a slow but sure trend for blu-Ray dominance.

http://img443.imageshack...mmontageoriginaljo7.jpg

Whilst it's guarenteed the usual suspects will reply with FUD about Profile 1.1/2.0 and other desperate attempt to sway the buying public, it won't work, the buying public have decided, even the stores have decided, with Target now giving much more Blu-ray space, Blockbuster, Borders, Woolworths only stocking Blu-ray. Those stores without corporate decisions on store shelves, are already naturally having much more Blu-Ray content available that HD DVD.

In 3 weeks Universals exclusivity contract with HD DVD is up, how much will it cost Toshiba/Microsoft this time around, now that things weigh so heavilly in Blu-rays favor? Can they afford to buy them in for another year?

Score: 0

By Hocuspokus

posted Sep 28, 2007 - 10:28 AM

"now that things weigh so heavilly in Blu-rays favor"

- Howls of derisive laughter.

You guys are just so determined to ignore the minute overall size of the high def disc market
(or the fact that HD DVD is closing the gap quite nicely now).

You must be in a state of shocked denial to not see what is really going on.

Your beloved PS3 has failed to win this 'war' (and without that PS3 Blu-ray died and was buried long long ago).

Score: 0

By yountmj

edited Sep 28, 2007 - 8:35 AM

Hmm, well considering that Microsoft and NBC-Universal recently joined forces earlier in the year... ain't gonna happen, Nancy.

If you're going to try impressing someone with figures and statistics, a JPG on ImageShack with very outdated statistics may not be the most credible source, and certainly not one to brag about.

Just sayin'.

...

Psst... Warner.

*watches Steve as he runs back to Blu-ray.com*

"Waaaahhh... He said 'Warner'! BAN HIM!!! LOCK THE THREAD!!! Mods, he said 'Warner'!"

LOL

I've gotta admit, you certainly live up to your moniker. Reading Blu-ray.com has certainly been amusing... scripted entertainment, sorta like "pro wrestling".

Score: 0

By SGD

posted Sep 28, 2007 - 7:49 AM

Target much more space yes I noticed they added 4 blo ray disks. Like I have said before target can not be taken seriously since they have next to nothing for stock. But then again you will never admit that.

Score: 0

By SGD

posted Sep 28, 2007 - 7:42 AM

Stolen right from the forums over at bluray.com nice job. Why don't you go back to to bluray and collectively get a clue.

Score: 0

By bobthegoat2001

edited Sep 28, 2007 - 7:11 AM

Go back to your blu-ray.com forum with your fellow blu-blood soldiers. And that's an order!

Score: 0

By pridewalker

posted Sep 28, 2007 - 6:29 AM

Wow...talk about a grudge. I find it ironic that you accuse HD DVD users of trying to keep their investment sound (with the ever ubiquitous FUD claim), yet you've bought into the BR propaganda machine, so completely.

You're numbers are more than a little bit old.

The profile 1.1/2.0 information is not FUD, nor has it ever been. Sorry, but the facts speak for themselves, and the BR camp seems content to not even try to defend themselves. The companies tend to avoid the topic, or claim that the movie will work, just not the extras. The smurf brigade claims that any site that points out this information is just a MS/HD DVD/Toshiba propaganda site, and plug their ears like children.

You don't even have a leg to stand on when it comes to people who sell the movies. Borders.com has plenty of HD DVDs listed, I just sent 2 HD DVDs back to Blockbuster, and (at least in the US) Woolworths has next to no presence any longer. Hell, the Target arguement is even weak. Both of my local stores followed the company policy and doubled their BR shelf space...they went from 6 to 12 titles available.

Another thing that qualifies as FUD by the smurfs, is their tendency to claim a payoff for Paramount/Dreamworks exclusivity (unsubstantiated), yet completely ignore the money that was paid to Target, or that Blockbuster was at point owned by a Sony subsidiary (both of which are substantiated facts). Sorry, but if its wrong for the money to change hands on one side (and create a huge amount of smurf tears), then its wrong when BR does it too...you don't get it both ways.

The only thing that weighs in BR's favor right now is the PS3, since that player has the best chance at being 1.1 compliant, when or if that standard ever actually sees the light of day. Ironically, Sony...the company that loves to toot it's own horn...is ever so quiet about this fact.

As far as Universal goes (and any other studio for that matter), I'd honestly like to see them all go format neutral, and let the consumer decide which one will survive. I have used both, and honestly...I found BR to be seriously lacking, in comparison to HD DVD.

Score: 0

By Steve Austin

posted Sep 28, 2007 - 8:06 AM

"You don't even have a leg to stand on when it comes to people who sell the movies. Borders.com has plenty of HD DVDs listed, I just sent 2 HD DVDs back to Blockbuster, and (at least in the US) Woolworths has next to no presence any longer. Hell, the Target arguement is even weak. Both of my local stores followed the company policy and doubled their BR shelf space...they went from 6 to 12 titles available."

I think you are struggling.

1/ I didn't mention Borders online, I talked about retail store.

2/Woolworths has a large prescence OUTSIDE the US. This war will be one on a global basis, not the US..

3/ The Target store I saw, Whitehall, PA, has at least 70 blu-ray titles in last week, and about 15 HD DVD.

Score: 0

By pridewalker

posted Sep 28, 2007 - 6:20 PM

I'm hoping you take this question in a friendly tone: Where did they put a Target in Whitehall? I moved out of the Lehigh Valley about 3 years ago, and the closest Target to that area was over the border in Jersey.

I don't mean to derail the debate, it's just unusual to encounter someone from my old stomping grounds...

Score: 0

By SGD

posted Sep 28, 2007 - 8:51 AM

Why would you want to buy any hd format in a store when you can buy them online for far less money. Maybe you are not smart enough to figure that part out. Target I have yet to see one with more than 12 of either format. All the stores that I have seen have a very poor selection of either of the new standards. So they have 70 there is what a couple hundred titles and priced to high on top of that.

Go back to Bluray until you can back up your claims which you won't be able to.

Score: 0

By Hocuspokus

edited Sep 28, 2007 - 11:09 AM

"Why would you want to buy any hd format in a store when you can buy them online for far less money."

- No there's a question they avoid like the plague.

They also love to quote Neilson as and when it suits but never admit that Neilson does not take account of on-line sales.

Obviously in-store sales will show a little more favourably for Blu-ray (since their game console demographic is younger and a little less likely to have credit card accounts etc etc for on-line buying compared to HD DVD's).
But naturally this is also something they just prefer to pretend isn't happening either.

Sorry to burst your bubble there Steve but this 'war' is going to be decided in the USA.

(Rather laughably this line from Steve now is a total reversal of what the Blu-ray shills were saying until a short while ago......when they thought things were going their way.)

At one stage I had hoped it wouldn't be true myself but you'd have to be blind to not to see that with the largest share of HD TVs and high def DVD as well as much of the western world's movie content it is America that will decide this first.

In any event Steve's (or whoever's) desire to paint everywhere else as a Blu-ray success is only based on the poor selling PS3 (just as it once was in the USA).
But we can see (from the Amazon stats) that the same thing is happening everywhere (even in Japan - which was a surprise).
Blu-ray took a short-term but unimpressive lead in movie disc sales and HD DVD is closing the gap as HD DVD sales take off with ever-lower prices.
Deny the truth all you like but the facts are the facts.
PS3 has failed to win this 'war'.

It's only a matter of time until HD DVD superior price and content win out.

Suck it up BD shills.

Score: 0

By SlapShot

posted Sep 28, 2007 - 6:22 AM

whatever you say smurfette dave

Score: 0

By Setian^Stalker

edited Sep 28, 2007 - 5:34 AM

Dont think you realise the figures used in that image are now old and dont take into count since the hddvd sales have started to lift
To save you having to load the picture you posted, the newest date in there says Week ending April 1st 2007.

Score: 0

By yountmj

posted Sep 27, 2007 - 9:01 PM

Blu-ray Disc Interactivity and You

http://www.ultimateavmag.com/features/907bdint/

...and the hits keep coming. LOL

It makes me wonder if the current and future models of stand-alone BD players are being price-fixed to drive up sales of the PS3. There is simply no reason whatsoever for such underspec'd and underfeatured devices to cost so much.

Score: 0

By Steve Austin

edited Sep 28, 2007 - 3:44 AM

"I absolutely mean that the Picture-In-Picture (PIP) and networking features that are and have been available on HD DVD will be coming to Blu-ray.

While it seems that the most prevalent (by far) Blu-ray Disc player on the market, Sony's PlayStation3, will be compatible with these features"

" The Sony PS3, however, seems to meet all the hardware requirements for even BD-ROM Profile 2, and this is unquestionably significant if in fact the PS3 will be compatible with these advanced features. Not only is the PS3 the most prevalent HD player in the market on either side with over 1.8 million units in US households alone"

Thanks for that link.

Score: 0

By Hocuspokus

edited Sep 28, 2007 - 11:10 AM

"I absolutely mean that the Picture-In-Picture (PIP) and networking features that are and have been available on HD DVD will be coming to Blu-ray."

- Oh dear, so the best in reality you can do is claim they might match some of the HD DVD features, some time and on only some machines.

No sign of the laughable
"something vastly superior."
Steve Austin posted Sep 22, 2007 - 2:55 PM http://www.betanews.com/..._DVD_Players/1190310589

that you have claimed earlier then Steve, huh?

Goodbye Steve.

Score: 0

By yountmj

edited Sep 30, 2007 - 11:29 AM

"seems"

"if"

Possibly... maybe... nobody knows for sure... check back in a few more months...

Yep, about par for the course for Sony. You're welcome. :)

I don't suppose you'd like to defend the rest of that article, hmm?

No, didn't think so. No Smurf can, because Papa Smurf can't... because it's true, and cannot be denied. But the BD lackeys will do what they always have: ignore it or cover it up.

I knew the part about the PS3 was in there, as I happened to read the entire article (which was good, by the way). I don't doubt that the PS3 stands the greatest (or only) chance of being upgradeable.

The point is, that has yet to be proven... still.

Respond to this, if you can:

The specifications have apparently been in place for quite some time for the newer profiles. It's down to the manufacturers to add those capabilities to their respective BD players and test them. Everyone has hit the proverbial brick wall with regards to that. Sony and their investors are counting heavily on the success and capabilities of the PS3 to drive Blu-ray sales. Surely Sony themselves would have updated their own console to support those advanced features by now if it were indeed capable of it. I mean... how long has the PS3 been out now?

Would you care to offer your opinion on why a simple firmware upgrade to enable those advanced features on the PS3 has not happened yet after so long (and with no official mention of that happening in the foreseeable future, as well)?

Score: 0

By Setian^Stalker

edited Sep 28, 2007 - 5:36 AM

So what about all those that bought standalone players for the purpose of playing well blu-ray movies?
I'd love for you guys to start proving people wrong here but all it ever is, is dodge dodge dodge and mis inform a bit.

Score: 0

By Steve Austin

posted Sep 28, 2007 - 8:00 AM

Their players will perform exactly as they do today, how is that do diffucult to understand?

The fact the interactivity is moving on, and future discs and future players may do more, sorry, that's life. The fact remains, if you have a Blu-ray player it's capabilities will not be changed by profile 1.1/2.0 Anyone that says it will, is blowing smoke.

Score: 0

By Setian^Stalker

posted Oct 1, 2007 - 12:09 AM

Thats called getting screwed and this day and age people getting screwed doesnt go down lightly.
The problem is, familys get a blu-ray player to play blu-rays. It should be a no brainer for them but its not because their interactive content isnt going to work now. Why should they write that off as a life experience when it was completely avoidable by the companies bringing this s*** out.

Score: 0

By SGD

posted Sep 28, 2007 - 8:56 AM

So you admit that people that bought a $1000 machine are just kind of out of luck or sorry that's life. They will like that. You blow the most smoke here by the way.

Score: 0

By yountmj

posted Sep 28, 2007 - 8:31 AM

Not according to Denon, to name one manufacturer.

Sorry, but that's life? No, only in Sony's warped reality where constant delays and false promises seem to be the accepted norm.

Every single HD DVD player ever released can meet the requirements of each and every specification of the standard, for each player has the necessary mandatory built-in hardware to do so. There is nothing that firmware upgrades cannot accomplish on HD DVD players. There are no surprises, for the specification has been final since the launch of the format.

BD players? Not so much... except maybe the PS3. I'll concede that maybe the PS3 might stand the greatest (if only) chance of being upgradeable to support future upgrades to the profiles. How well do you think that machine is going to handle 2 separate high-bandwidth audio and video streams through software decoding? 256 MB of system RAM... 256 MB of VRAM.

Not making fun here... that's an honest question. Do you think the PS3 can handle it... PiP, I mean? It may have a nifty CPU capable of all kinds of crazy stuff... but the rest of the system bandwidth leaves a lot to be desired for such a cutting-edge next-gen platform.

Score: 0

By Steve Austin

posted Sep 28, 2007 - 9:26 AM

"but the rest of the system bandwidth leaves a lot to be desired for such a cutting-edge next-gen platform. "

And your proof?

The stats I saw yesterday, the Cell alone blows away a Nvidia G80 by a facor of 6, before the RSX is even added to the equasion. The XDR ram is considerably faster than anything around today in other consumer devices (HD DVD Blu-ray and 360 included). The system bandwidth between Cell/SPE/PPE and RSX is 25.6 GFLOPS, I don't see how that is not enough..

Score: 0

By yountmj

edited Sep 28, 2007 - 3:42 PM

Of course you don't see, and I know the reason... you don't know what you're talking about. Mentioning the GFLOPS the PS3 is capable of is related to its overall performance, not the bandwidth of the system. I had just said that it may have a nice CPU, but the rest of the system leaves a lot to be desired for such a cutting-edge platform.

I spoke specifically of the memory bandwidth. It simply doesn't cut it, sorry to say. The Xbox 360 eats it alive in that area.

And they can call it 'RSX' or 'Reality Synthesizer' all they want... it's a 2 year old last-gen NVIDIA GeForce 7800 256 MB G70 GPU. Yeah, real bleeding-edge there for a next-gen console. *sigh*

By the way, I know what you're referring to regarding performance of the Cell vs the 8800 GTX GPU. The Cell is better at ray-tracing performance? Wow... that's, uh... so? This is important how? Ray-tracing is not used to render graphics in real-time. Rasterization is. Frame rendering. Get a clue...

The G80 is capable of approximately 500 GFLOPS, whereas the Cell is around 26 GFLOPS. That's the difference between 128 streaming processors and 8 (or 7). Not that it really matters, the GPU used in the GeForce 8800 GTX will always stomp a mudhole in the Cell's a** in sheer floating point performance and walk it dry.

Score: 0

By bobthegoat2001

posted Sep 28, 2007 - 6:44 PM

Bam!

Score: 0

By SGD

posted Sep 28, 2007 - 10:09 AM

Your right one of the best in AV gear Denon does not know what they are talking about. Some kid with his PS3 knows more than the designers there.

And it has been discussed here on several occasions that the memory bus in the PS3 is very weak. And yes there were valid links to back it up.

Better run back to blu ray to get some more ammo from the bloods.

Score: 0

By Hocuspokus

posted Sep 27, 2007 - 7:56 PM

Well well well.

Lookey here; more bad news for Blu-ray?

Let's see if the coming 51gb TL HD DVD disc causes some Disney movement
(they are the only studio to specifically ask for such a size).

Disney have announced that they are not releasing any more BD movies after their announced title of Dec 18 "Underdog."