& so forth...

http://atrc.utoronto.ca/...demainmenu=1&id=371

3. General Issues
In Section 1.2 above, some necessary conditions for accessibility of a document standard were presented. These included that a standard:

* is easy to follow [3.1]
* is consistent, without a large number of exceptions [3.1];
* uses other open standards wherever possible [3.2];
* harmonizes with other standards in the domain [3.3]; and
* makes necessary semantics programmatically available to the assistive technology [3.4].

This section will explain how the OOXML standard fails on each of these points.

Those are not ISO requirements.

Wow...forgive me for not keeping up, but since when was Iran a member of ISO?

ISO... Isotope... ;)

Why not? Heck, there's Venezuela, Pakistan, China, etc in the list as well, who don't think like us either. But that's not supposed to be the point of ISO.
The bottom line is that they will be using these standards as well, and thus I find it perfectly reasonable that they have the right to make their voice count.

Who don't like *whom* either...???

Yeah, all I was saying was that I didn't know Iran was on board. ISO-tope comment was quite clever, though.

To answer your question he probably meant America, but that wasn't the point of me asking.

Read again, slowly, so that you don't miss any words in my original comment. I said "who don't THINK like us".
In this context;
"S: (adj) alike, similar, like (having the same or similar characteristics)"

This is great news. As an ISO standard, that means countless technology groups around the world can legally re-engineer it without fear of reproachment.

I don't know about all of you haters, but considering the countries voting in the affirmative I am interested in seeing more online services leveraging the format (and reduce the fears that Google will own the online word processing and spreadsheets world).

too bad they can't. M$OOXML is a tangled mess of M$ patents and proprietary information; it is not an open standard. Plus, the specification is horrible defined and full of errors.

I agree in that I always welcome an agreed standard.
Now, was it accepted fairly? We'll never know, but it doesn't matter anymore because the sure thing is that we'll have to deal with it now. Thus, here am I jumping on the bandwagon with the rest of the herd.

This was not decided on technical grounds at all, but rather on the grounds of commercial and political pressure. None of the committee meetings had time to consider the technical side. What a shambles!

None of the committee meetings had time to consider the technical side.

OOXML took almost twice the time to gain approval than ODF did.

OOXML should be approved of with an asterisk behind it's name due to widespread allegations of corruption. It should be treated no differently from a baseball player that gets that little asterisk behind their name if they get into the hall of fame after using steroids.

I wonder what else Microsoft plans to change next. I doubt changing the name is the only thing. However, a lot of people I work with or have worked with made the switch to Open Office because of that abomination called Office 2007.

allegations

So...now *any* proposed standard can be entered with an asterisk? (Because you know the other side will do just what it did here and astroturf "alleged" "allegations" of "possible" "irregularities".

*laughs*

Yes. Definitely. Excellent idea.

/sarcasm

M$ won, they only way they know how. they stacked the committees, paid nations to join ISO, and changed rules, etc... to get their way. Their horribly defined formats are now ISO standards. No one can implement the formats except for M$. Well, actually not even M$ implements it.

ISO now stands for "I Sold Out" and its reputation is worthless. M$ was going to win either way.

M$ makes over 50% of their revenue by locking people into their proprietary Office formats. You don't think they are just going to give that away?

"Microsoft last year conceded that an employee in Sweden offered to compensate local tech execs for joining the country's standards committee and voting in favor of OOXML."

From:
http://www.informationwe...tml?articleID=207001016

PC_Tool, the vote around ODF was a very quiet affair. Because it passed based on its technical merits, and it passed on consensus. In this vote, I have seen: member countries joining at the last minute. The subcommittee's activities frozen since then, because most of the new voting members have ONLY voted on OOXML. The ODF file format painted (by Microsoft) as some sort of competitive weapon when it's *nothing but a file storage format*. The list of irregularities goes on and on.

We're not in a court of law. When I find my kid in the kitchen with cookie crumbs all over his face and melted chocolate on his hands, I can pretty much tell where he's been. It doesn't take a lawyer to tell me that there's something rotten in the state of ISO regarding DIS 29500, either... and the stink is emanating from Redmond.

Regardless, it will be interesting to see where we are 10 years from now. My prediction: OOXML will be regarded as an embarrassment by the ISO, ignored by most implementators, and unused by most governments (especially in light of ongoing legal action by the EEC commissioner). It will become painfully obvious to all concerned that OOXML is a dinosaur written by and for Microsoft only. Constituent complaints about unimplementable features lurking in their OOXML files, and the ongoing bad press from the European investigations, will cause a lot of governments to revisit their support of OOXML.

In short, you can buy support- for a time- but you can't hide from the truth forever.

You won't get much out of tool, and his ilk. They believe that M$ can do no wrong and they worship it and will be like 9/11 terrorists crashing planes into buildings to prove their faith...

"Microsoft last year conceded that an employee in Sweden offered to compensate local tech execs for joining the country's standards committee and voting in favor of OOXML."

Yes, and if you follow that, you will find it was a failed attempt by a local (Swedish) MSFT employee not directly involved in the process.

But feel free to keep spinning.

When I find my kid in the kitchen with cookie crumbs all over his face and melted chocolate on his hands, I can pretty much tell where he's been

Ah. Local MSFT employee not involved in the process starts offering large sums of cash? Hmm..sounds like he may have been set up by the ODF folks.

See? Anyone can do it.

I have *yet* to see anyone post on this site regarding actual technical, documented, flaws in the spec. All I hear is, "It's too big", or "Rob Wier said so.", or "MSFT paid someone."...never any actual facts.

You guys should really try that sometime. You're the one's claiming it is flawed and that MSFT bought folks. Yet you can never seem to post any facts to back those accusations up...

*laughs*

Comparing me to a terrorist? Wow. ...and you thought Bush was bad using the "terrorist" line.

I've offered before, I'll offer again: Would you like me to post links to the many times I have, on this very site, voiced my dislike of some MSFT products, or the way they have handled certain things? (Vista, Windows Media Player, XP SP2 TCP connection limits, WHS, their "folder sharing" app...etc. The list is quite long, actually.)

Of course not. Silly me. That wouldn't fit in with your "You won't get much out of tool, and his ilk. They believe that M$ can do no wrong and they worship it" bulls***.

Hell, El Dingo seems to be under the impression actually work for MSFT.

I'm sure you guys could be more clueless if you really tried hard, but I won't give you that much credit; It would require of you actual effort.

"Yet you can never seem to post any facts to back those accusations up..."

PC_Troll at his finest. I guess all the links which get posted to the countless sites devoted to listing all the technical flaws don't count and we have to post it all here? LOL.

So a M$ employee was caught bribing people to vote for OOXML and yet PC_Troll says it is not true. LOL!

Does M$ pay you to post this stuff?

oh my god your so clever changing MS to M$

I guess all the links which get posted to the countless sites devoted to listing all the technical flaws don't count and we have to post it all here?

...so you criticise him, while acknowledging that he was correct???

We're here, not at the "countless sites" that you fail to mention.

So a M$ employee was caught bribing people to vote for OOXML and yet PC_Troll says it is not true. LOL!


Did he say it wasn't true? Thought he said "Yes, and if you follow that, you will find it was a failed attempt by a local (Swedish) MSFT employee not directly involved in the process."

And yes, MS "obviously" pays him to post this stuff (*rolls eyes*).

I guess all the links which get posted to the countless sites devoted to listing all the technical flaws don't count and we have to post it all here?

I've been to many of them. All of them state the same thing, along the lines of: "The spec is contradictory and defines many alternate ways of accomplishing tasks already defined elsewhere"

...and yet all of these always seem to fail to provide any excerpts from the spec which would back up such claims.

here's a thunk:

Instead of ranting on about how many sites contain these "facts", and how easy they are to find....post one. If they're that easy to find and that well documented, it should be a piece of cake, right?

Post the issue the example represents, post the example. Easy-peasy, right?

You ranted about WHS, though you'd never even seen it, and from your posts had no idea of it's functionality. I would hazard to guess you've also never even glanced sideways at the OOXML spec.

they stacked the committees,

BS

paid nations to join ISO,

BS

and changed rules

BS

Their horribly defined formats

You haven't even looked at them.

No one can implement the formats except for M$.

BS

M$ makes over 50% of their revenue by locking people into their proprietary Office formats.

Most of MSFT's revenue comes from OEM OS sales. Clueless much?

Getting this approved was money well spent....

Proof?

Of course not.

*yawn*

Feel free to reply by calling me a troll, linking to other ODF fanboys who cannot backup their accusations, and other completely useless and irrelevant BS....

I know you want to, you always do.

What a tool you are....

Thanks for proving my point.

If I receive an xml document I return it with a note "If you wish me to read this document please retransmit it in .doc, .odt or .pdf format. Thank you"

I don't know where you work, but if it has been defined as a standard, may we like it or not, we won't get away with refusing to open them because we don't like them.
If a project goes beyond schedule because you simply refused to open a document despite it being in an agreed standard for which you have display tools, will you be returning your pink slip if you can prove that it's not using one of those formats you like?

Don't let the door hit you on the way out with your box and pink-slip.

...oh, wait, McDonald's doesn't give pink-slips.

One small step for Microsoft, one giant leap backwards for ISO.

A standard too complex for even a moderate-sized team of programmers to fully implement means there will always be only one fully working implementation. What's the point of a standard, ISO? Looks like we need a new organization to establish sane standards now.

It's not a leap backward. No doubt Microsoft promised that it would use it's monumental lobbying funds to require governments to use ISO standards if and only if this passed.

"consensus-building process"? I'm sure we call that something different around where I live...

You can call it whatever you want.

If you have proof it was something other than that, please, do tell...

There must be something up if you approve of it....

typical PC_Troll...no clue what he is posting about. How long have you worked for Micro$oft?

you can start here, although the M$ firewalls might not let you browse this site at work: http://www.groklaw.com/

lmao..

All you got?

They are calling votes "irregular" because the ODF lobby wants them to be.

Nothing new here.

Got anything "illegal"? How about any proof that MSFT actually did *anything* wrong?

How about you just call me a troll, spew useless BS and disappear like you always do?

Thanks so much for the input...

scj001: Providing useful and intelligent debate since:

Never.

everyone laughs at your posts.

So you are saying the fact 80% of the Norway committee memebers say no, but the country still votes yes is normal?

I am not going to reply to anymore of your nonsense posts. I realize your employers at M$ make you say such silly things, but every non-M$ employee on these forums knows better.

Try reading the non-M$ propaganda about M$OOXML and get back to us.

pot meet kettle.

PC_tool was obviously being facetious, so don't take the bait, people. A vote where 58% of the membership votes in favor is a majority, not a consensus. Microsoft is obviously engaging in corporate spin. Note that ODF passed with no opposing votes. That is a consensus.

For those who haven't been following the saga, Groklaw reports on it regularly: www.groklaw.net. See also: http://www.geekzone.co.nz/foobar/4802

says the person who does not use any MS products yet appears in EVERY thread to spew the same nonsense over and over.

"everyone laughs at your posts."

LOL...I think you got that backwards...everybody either laughs at YOUR posts, or they just completely ignore them.

Well, you get what you give, tool. Like I had said, if you approve of it than there must be something wrong with it.

Well, if it ain't a nobody.

He knows it. His ego won't let him admit it, but he knows it. Even El Dingo isn't that stupid.

Fine. Next time I make pointless and baseless accusations, call me on it.

Oh right, I don't.

*yawn*

You once again utterly fail to provide anything useful. Amazing...

As I said above: Show me my baseless accusations I can't back up with fact.

Riiight...

Something tells me you don't have a proper understanding of the meaning of that phrase...

Look! Its pitidingo's buddy who also does not use MS products and can't shut up about Linux even when the thread has NOTHING to do with Linux.

you clearly don't.

here is the link to a site which covers it all. Not that you care though.

http://www.groklaw.com/

How much does M$ pay you to astro-turf these forums?

ok apple employee

Nope, there is absolutely NO bias on that site whatsoever...

PC_tool was obviously being facetious, so don't take the bait, people.

Anytime someone uses the word "obviously" at betanews, it seems to almost always be followed by unproven accusations, opinions, or just plain BS.

A vote where 58% of the membership votes in favor is a majority, not a consensus.

According to ISO it is...nice spin of the percentage to show the lowest possible number, by the way. By that logic you lie when you say ODF passed unanimously as not everyone there voted.

Microsoft is obviously engaging in corporate spin.

There's that word again.

Note that ODF passed with no opposing votes.

Noted. Again, only 31 voted to approve ODF, so that would be less than unanimous based on your "spin number" above.

OWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW
The STUPID!!!!!! IT BURNS!!!!!! Ignore the troll. His day job is to make BetaNews suck as bad as he does. Speaking of that: why doesn't BetaNews kick your weird butt off of here, troll boy?

i understand in M$ land, you dare not speak against the mothership. But in this world, there are some sites which deal in facts, not in M$ propaganda.

Why argue the facts when you can simply say someone is biased or political, as M$ likes to say, and disregard it?

Of course i would not expect the M$ drones on this site to know anything about the real world.

Provide *one* fact documented on Groklaw, concerning the OOXML spec that *isn't* just another Anti-MSFT baseless accusation.

Just one.

Asking for facts and proof is trolling in your mind?

Who'da thunk it....

Note that ODF passed with no opposing votes.

Noted. Again, only 31 voted to approve ODF, so that would be less than unanimous based on your "spin number" above.

On a faster track then even ISO/Ecma provided (the OASIS process used involved less steps than the Ecma/ISO Fast-track process combined...but they just don't mention that bit anywhere) ODF was in ISO for about 6 months, OOXML for almost a year.

http://farm3.static.flic...6477_955c06b073.jpg?v=0

So you are saying the fact 80% of the Norway committee memebers say no, but the country still votes yes is normal?

Anything *but* normal.

Norway's own response
The main issue in the Norwegian committee meeting on March 28 was to clarify whether if our comments were given due consideration to the degree that we could change Norway’s vote from No to Yes…. Prior to the meeting 21 committee members had signed an open letter to Standard Norge which argued why Standard Norge should vote no to OOXML. Thus they had taken a position before the committee had discussed how our comments had been considered.

First, Standard Norway at the beginning of the process was clear in that the decision process would not happen based on a majority vote in the committee. In spite of this fact, the anti-Open XML participants inflated the committee with their representatives just prior to the Sept. 2 vote seeking to influence the decision based on a majority vote - Standard Norway immediately rejected that proposal.

Following the Sept. 2 vote of “No with comments,” there was no process concern from the anti-Open XML community even though the process was identical to what has happened following the BRM process.
Second, after all of the “committee stuffing” claims from IBM, it seems that both IBM and Google joined the committee just two weeks before the final March 28th meeting. Ironic, no?

Finally, Standard Norway repeatedly stated following Sept 2nd that the key issue in deciding the final Norwegian vote is to what extent the 12 Norwegian comments were sufficiently met. The fact that the comments were addressed then drove a decision to move to yes.

If M$ hadn't laid the land for fools to walk upon you'd still be chiseling on stone slabs instead of trolling online forums.

These guys made the PC a commotity accessible to the masses. Something that Linux smart asses and Apple muppets will never get over...