RSSInternal e-mails show concern over 'Vista capable' program
By Ed Oswald | Published February 28, 2008, 2:15 PM
As the looming court battle over the "Windows Vista capable" program draws nearer, a federal judge unsealed internal e-mails which show that Microsoft may have been aware of potential problems long before the suit was filed.
These e-mails are likely to provide the plaintiffs a good deal of evidence that the Redmond company was indeed aware that some of their certified products could not run the more advanced features of the new OS.
It also shows that within Microsoft, there was a good deal of frustration over Vista's initial hardware and software problems. One board member even had problems with using Microsoft's own applications.
In e-mails first reported on by the Seattle Post-Intelligencer's Todd Bishop, one from new Windows head Steven Sinofsky stands out. In it, he points out that manufacturers didn't start working on drivers until late 2006, because "no one really believed we would ever ship."
He also pointed to the significant changes in audio and video support within Vista as a problem; this, along with other changes in security, made many XP drivers inoperable.
While in many cases a generic driver would work, functionality was greatly reduced, he conceded. He also questioned Microsoft's move of deeming the Intel 915 chipset (used in a signficant amount of laptops), which is not Aero compatible, as possibly being a mistake. Even the 945 chipset was "barely" working, he continued.
"We need to be clearer with industry and we need to decide what we will do and do that well and 100% and not just do a little of everything which leaves the IHV [Independent Hardware Vendors] in a confused state," he said in the February 2007 e-mail.
But why was the 915 chipset allowed to be called Vista capable if it really wasn't? There's a simple answer to that, and its Intel's bottom line.
Microsoft executive John Kalkman said that the company lowered its requirements to help the company make its quarterly earnings. This allowed Intel to continue to ship motherboards with the chipset embedded, and took the focus off of getting out graphics drivers that actually work.
"[This] was a mistake on our part to change the original graphics requirements. This created confusion in the industry on how important the aspect of visual computing would play as a feature set to new Windows Vista upgraders," he lamented.
The moves angered retailers and manufacturers alike. HP felt burned because it had made significant commitments to push the new UI and Intel was now "driving our customer experience," as one executive put it; and Wal-Mart had actually taken steps to remove Vista-capable logos from computers that didn't fully support all of the OS' features.
In a statement responding to the release of the e-mails, Microsoft conceded that there was considerable debate on the program, but felt that it was a success in the end.
The entire release of internal e-mails can be found here in PDF format.
I remember watching a demo for Windows 95 in my country (Peru) from a Microsoft guy, explaining how great it was... "You can run more than one program, and if one program crashes, the other one continue with its work". Well, 'hyper' seems a proper adjective for Vista. I'm working with PCs for 30 years, and I think I'm going to stick to XP for now. I'm just going to upgrade my processor to QUAD and get some DDR3 memory and just relax for a couple of years with this non-sense OS. I remember watching a McIntosh computer 20 years ago loading a Spreadsheet software in 1 second. In a PC took around 10 seconds. Why is Windows getting bigger and bigger and so complicate each time? Don't get it.
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|This is same old Microsoft profit before you name it.
As a small business owner, I have not upgraded any of my computers because the Vista operating system would make all my programs obsolete. The cost to upgrade compatable programs per computer would be
business breakable.
As a Califoria DVBE business I would have to close the doors.
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|What a poo of an OS.
Make it more efficient and backwards compatible complete with more exciting technology, and you'll have my money. Not to mention everyone will love Microsoft.
Truth = never going to happen :(
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|more efficient and backwards compatible complete with more exciting technology
Talk about your impossible demands... Do you know anything about computers? "New tech" generally requires more horsepower. The requirement for more horsepower generally means it will run like crap on older systems. Yin-Yang. Greater Performance=greater power requirements.
To each request:
Backwards compatibility: VirtualBox. Create a new VM and throw Win95 on it. This is pretty damn near equivalent to "Mac Classic", you can even set VB to "seamless mode" so the apps appear to be integrated.
More efficient: Re-written memory handling creates a more stable and secure environment for programs *designed* for Windows Vista. This won't be noticeable until programs are designed to use the Vista APIs.
Exciting Technology: Purely subjective. ReadyBoost, Flash on HDD, Blu-Ray and HD DVD compatibility, compositing desktop, DX10, etc...take yer pick.
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|yea yea. But seriously, the "more horsepower" argument? There's a difference between being a resource hog and actually doing something effective & useful with the resources in the first place...
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|This story does not surprise me. Both MS and Intel have much to gain from a new OS. Say what we want about the Intel/AMD feud but is it really all smoke and mirrors? VISTA Compatable? Vista Ready? Vista Home? Vista Premium? Vista Basic? Vista Business? Vista Ultimate? I'm in the business and it's a little hard to understand WHY they branded it this way. Vista Basic... umm.. how about just stay with XP? Waste of time... I've seen these Vista Compatible logos on routers. Routers? What is the point of that? It's a marketing gimic designed to sell products and fault OS's. Bring on Google's OS!
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|it's not just microsoft, everybody is doing it... ie: intel's centrino, core duo, core 2 duo, core solo, extreme edition, etc. i'm not fond of it either but the masses seem to tolerate it.
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|Vista has the ability to display routers that support this feature that are on the network, so it does make sense for those routers to be Vista compatible.
MS may have made a poor choice by having so many versions, but that was so they could get into a lot of markets. XP has Home, Professional, Server, 64 bit and embedded. So it's not like they did something new.
I'm not excusing MS for this huge blunder, and I am sure they will lose, yet again, since this isn't in the U.S. But, MS does support a vast number of American workers and jobs, so I will defend them when I can.
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|Most people who can find their way here knows at least something about computers.
My friend when he was asking for my advise on computers, he asked me on every single keyboard, mices, monitors whether they're windows compatible or not if they didn't have the WINDOWS VISTA/XP FULLY COMPATIBLE description or seal on it.
What do monitors has to do with Windows?
I don't know, but I mean for a lot of people who knows nothing about computers out there, it makes them feel safe.
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|Well actually this KB:
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/929707
Explains why Vista-capable routers ARE actually required. Another Vista networking bug. :p
But I get your point. I've seen Vista-capable monitors too. WTF is that about? It wasn't a HDCP-compliant monitor, so it's not the DRM. Maybe it meets the minimum resolution? But then, doesn't ANY monitor you could currently buy meet that standard!?!?!?!?!
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|The logic to put a Vista logo on a router is twofold:
1) For the non tech savvy it will make them think they have to rebuy (Please don't tell me they don't play into THAT)
2) Make them more like a MAC. Let's face it... you plug an airport and the mac will see it and connect.
For XP it's Home, Professional. At least Home is a functioning operating system... how many people in the home environment need to login to a domain? For Vista there are 4 choices... 1 of which: BASIC, is a complete waste of time. CONFUSION! MS has goofed here... they know it. Work has already begun on Windows 7. Lets hope they can figure out how to make copying actually work correctly... amongst other things.
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|I think the issue there is IF you choose to install the drivers that came with the monitor (who the hell does that).
The sticker they chuck on products is a guarantee that the drivers with the product will work with vista.
As I found out with printers, that’s a dam good idea :)
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|It is up to the computer company selling the computers to determine what is good enough. It is not Microsoft's problem to tell Dell or HP you really shouldn't sell Vista on a computer with less then whatever. Dell and HP should try the computer out and say is this the experience we want our customers to have right out of the box. I know I will never buy a $500 laptop. I won't even recommend one to my worst enemy.
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|i thought a vista capable sticker meant it would be able to run vista when vista was released? wasn't this something the pc vendors did before vista was released to the public?
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|I bought a $400 Gateway laptop for my wife. It ran like a boat anchor with Vista, even after tripling memory to 1.5GB. It was literally the slowest PC I've ever used in 20 years, and my wife could not tolerate it, even though it was much faster and much more memory than the 6-year-old machine it replaced. But with Linux and XP the computer works just fine and is snappy, responsive and most importantly, useful. It now serves her needs perfectly well, and I think is a great value.
I don't know who is worse, Microsoft for strongarming Gateway into crippling their products in that way, or Gateway for allowing themselves to sell such horrendously damaged goods, obviously caring more for (or fearing) Microsoft than their customers. Worse, Gateway doesn't support XP on a laptop that is wholly incapable of running Vista in a useful way.
Microsoft did not come into this situation through ignorance. They knew perfectly well what they were doing, and it shows nothing but an increasing level of contempt for their customers and refusal to compete with other businesses on a level playing field through manipulation, force, and all-out evil.
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|I bought a $700 acer for my wife last weekend.
Had VHP on it.
Removed it and threw XP on it.
Why? Because I knew better than to expect a $700 laptop to perform adequately (by my expectations) with such a demanding OS. The fact you expected a $400 one to do so astounds me.
Now if Acer would just provide easily accessible XP drivers for it. Only took 10 minutes on Google to find 'em all, but...
Again, this is Acer's fault, not MSFT's. Acer is selling systems that should have Vista Basic on them with VHP, aero-enabled, with a metric *ton* of crapware on them.
I didn't even bother backing the thing up. I've got the license, if I ever upgrade the lappy to Vista, I've got the license and a copy of VHP.
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|What is it about the word "capable" that people don't understand? Just because I'm capable of something, doesn't mean I'm going to be good at it. "Vista Capable" does NOT mean "Vista Ready" or "Made for Vista".
Also,it was well known by people that the aero interface was a memory hog, and to effectively run it, 2 gigs of RAM was the standard. Plus, the aero interface can be disabled if it's bogging down performance.
Additionally, there were pre-release reports from beta testers of Vista, that the OS didn't run well on some setups, including the laptops mentioned in this article. How is it Micrisoft's fault if people didn't do their homework before upgrading their OS? They put a recommended requirements tag on software for a reason.
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|good comment, just disagree with the aero thing. I can use more resources, but I wouldn't really call it a hog. It's a hog for old machines, but for new hardware, it's nothing.
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|you make it sound like john doe, who works in a department store likes to read vista reviews and knows what hardware runs vista best. typical consumers just go to best buy and buy a computer the salesperson says is right for them.
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|Well, then typical consumers are stupid just based alone on going to Best Buy to buy a PC. If they are dropping anywhere from $700 - 2500 on a new PC, you'd think that they would at least google the subject. It's not a big secret that Vista is out, and the recommended requirements are only a few clicks away on the internet.
I think that it's suddenly popular to bash Microsoft again. All these people gripe about their products being proprietary and not open source. I would rather have a proprietary OS that a tech support person from India (that's a whole other subject completely) will understand, and me not having to explain what I customized or modded to the guy.
Also, if Best buy is dropping less than decent PCs in people's laps that can't run Vista for crap, again... how is it Microsoft's fault?
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|I agree! I don't like to defend MS too much, but this isn't THAT big of a problem. I think MS did not help themselves with this, but I don't see this being any more deceptive than congressmen running for office. If only we could sue them :)
Seriously, the word capable does not equate to any more than it can run on a machine. If it couldn't run, then I'd see the problem, but it does run.
MS is hurting from sales over bad decisions with Vista, so the market already hit them. It's not really a legal matter to me (then again I'm not going to be getting millions as a lawyer against them :( ).
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|Because Microsoft uses their monopoly to force hardware vendors to ship their products bundled with inappropriate and broken software, even when customers should have, and want, something else.
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|My bicycle is capable of taking me to Alaska, but it would be ludicrous for me to attempt to use it. It is also ludicrous for Microsoft to consider something that takes 5 minutes to boot and 30-60 seconds to launch any program as being capable of anything other than wasting time, especially when it would run perfectly fine with Vista. I do hold Microsoft responsible for this fiasco, and they are being abetted by the hardware manufacturers who were bullied into shackling their products with this turd, even when it ruined those products.
I do not hold a customer responsible when Microsoft and the computer manufacturers are selling bundles that are not useful for anyone, when alternatives exist that are perfectly fine.
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|First, Microsoft does not have a monopoly. To steal a line from Antitrust, any kid in a garage has the potential to put them out of business. There is Apple, Linux, and a few other lesser known operating systems out there to choose from. Just because Microsoft has about 90% of the market, doesn't mean they have a monopoly. It means that PC manufactuers and consumers alike, chose MS to be their OS.
And MS is not forcing hardware vendors to do crap. If I was a hardware vendor, I'd make sure my hardware was Windows compliant because most likely the people who buy it are going to have Windows. I'd be stupid to not put Windows drivers on my hardware.
Is Vista broken software? I don't think so. Did it have some bugs? Yes. Has/Is Microsoft fixing them? Yes. I have Vista on my PC. I bought the PC in October. I was smart and did my homework before I plopped down my money. I didn't buy my PC at Wal-mart. I didn't let a salesperson make my decision for me. I don't have problems running Vista.
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|Guys,
Vista is not a bad thing, the problem here is "What on earth was the philosophy behind it?". From a purely business point of view it's either innovation (or the perception of same), or stagnate. Attendant to that is force developers' of chipsets, motherboards, drivers' and so it goes. This is a rather surreal form of development , yet it's been working for MSFT for nearly 2 decades, and it's working a treat.
The deficiencies of their meagre (sic) constructs have created an entire industry that, from a purely business efficiency scenario should never have happened. But Billy G has not only done it, he did it with elan.
Fact is they dictate how hardware ought to be built, how it is marketed, and so it goes.
A purely rhetorical query, but how many of the posters here are employed to service MSFT desktop & servers? Many more than would be prepared to admit.
CJ,
I gotta agree with you re Vista, it is the ME for the new millennium, yep, pun intended!
Toolie where are you? Please disabuse me of these heretical notions!
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|If you comment made any sense at all, I'd be more than happy to. :)
Someone's been watching way too many Matrix movies...
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|Right, because no-one should have a clue what they are paying hundred's of dollars for...
At the very least, they shouldn't be held the least bit responsible for their purchasing decisions...
I mean, what is the world coming to, right?
How on earth could anyone be expected to spend 10 minutes considering the pros and cons of a several hundred dollar purchase? That would be ridiculous!
Baaaa...
/sarcasm
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|I didn't buy my PC at Wal-mart. I didn't let a salesperson make my decision for me. I don't have problems running Vista.
Responsible purchasing = less hassle after the fact?
Who'da thunk it?
++ for having...and using your brain. Now if we could just get other consumers to do the same. (Uphill battle, to be sure)
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|Is total Crap, installed it as a virtual PC, was awful, never touch it again am sticking with XP - not that XP is completely flawless but its better.
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|I agreed that Vista is garbage, but SP1 changed it. I am using Sp1 64 bits edition, love it. There is still problem, like copy and moving file is slower, but I think it is an easy fix. Of course, I am running on newer hardware.
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|You really can't test an operating system based on how it performs in a Virtual PC. That's crazy.
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|HUH? Vista is garbage... fixed in SP1 ... copying is slower. Oh good grief. Come on people...let's call it like we see it: Vista was rushed, missing key features (new file system), and was dumped on the public in VARIOUS forms... Where are my ultimate extras? You expect consumers to identify with the branding. I say they want a computer to update their myspace page and check their email. They don't understand what an intel chipset is OR graphics to run Aero. They want to turn it on and have it work. As for the copying issues... it's been doing that since Windows 2000. What makes you think they are going to fix it now? 5 minutes to complete... 15 minutes to complete... 60 seconds to complete.... 3 minutes to complete... ugh.
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|Vista IS crap. My 2.8GHz Pentium 4 running XP SP2 is MUCH faster and much more responsive than my Intel core 2 duo 2Ghz processor + 4GB of RAM running Vista Business edition. Not to mention the various bugs in Vista which haven't quite gotten worked out yet.
Still I'm living with it--although I keep two workstations at hand: An older XP workstation that I do most of my primary work on, and my newer vista workstation for surfing the Internet.
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|Frankly I am suprised that older software runs faster for you? :)
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|I am not.. after going through the joke Microsoft called XP 64 bit edition and benching it on my 4k 64 bit processor and finding that my objective observation that apps ran faster on the 32 bit xp pro verses the 64 bit xp pro.
Frankly nothing about windows surprises me these days. Just call it the old "undocumented features" or bugs IMO
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|I have similar setup to what you listed (save Vista Ultimate) and I find Vista much more responsive than XP.
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|xyzcb1,
I I've seen your earlier indeed frequent posts re Vsita 64, but my question is where in the hell do you find your driver's.
I search high 'n low, and even get some Ruskies to do some hex & s***e, egro a link would be more useful than a "Bashrat"?
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|What does it matter? Businesses that migrated to Vista early on were burned so badly in many other significant ways (hibernation/sleep/AD integration with Server 2003 cache, etc) that this seems like a moot point.
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|Businesses that migrated to Vista early on were...
Suckers?
Idiots?
What business migrates to a new OS without testing it? The kind that aren't around for very long...
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|Toolie,
Check one of my previous posts, yep I'm too lazy to find it.
'Twas about the Victorian Education Board deciding to purchase something around 57K Vista licenses, for the kiddies & teach's to play with. Much to the chagrin of the devil (Jobs), never been done before, and kiddo do you not agree the kids will have fun.
But, if as you now say, you are an SBE this is a gold mine, conversely were it my business, would not have a part of it.
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|'Twas about the Victorian Education Board deciding to purchase something around 57K Vista licenses
That's amusing. 570000 licenses for an OS they've done zero testing on for compatibility or even if it was suitable for whatever plans they had for it?
Cute. I would *love* to be one of their vendors. Business with that kind of dough lying around who are that easy to sucker into giving you their money don't come along that often...
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|Where are the fanboys now?
Or is this simply more 'business as usual'?
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|i think you need to speak to your parents on why they didn't love you enough or at all in your early years, hoozah
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|How would this apply to "fanboys" the article implies pcs that were Vista capable, the same people that bought XP saw these same stickers, they knew better then to believe a machine that has 512 Mb of ram would run Vista.
From what I remember it was some lady who started this out because she couldn't use Aero, which I would not call a "key feature"
This is the manufacturer and MS fault, Vista Basic even on 512 is sluggish and thats no aero, now with sp1 I am not sure if it got any better, I have home prem, runs fine, I don't notice any speed issues after the sp1 patch and it seems faster then my xp box if I wanted to use all the extras that Vista offers putting them on XP slowed it down too, hence why I moved to Vista as with all the features I was using in XP was significantly faster plus there was enough things for ME that I personally wanted, others maybe not. Use whatever you want this whole fanboy nonsense is getting tired. Anyone that goes on and on about how their OS is better, has not seen a woman naked in a long time.
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|Just like Sony winning Blu Ray, MS won desktops. Thats the way the big boys play, profits over everything. It has hurt them in sales, like it should.
But, being a legal matter is stupid. Let the market tear them to shreds.
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|I think that is time to MOVE TO LINUX. Just try Ubuntu or Fedora distros. They are very easy, intuitive and FREE.
Thanks
ting
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