It all comes back to someone or a group of someones who think being gay is some kind of virus that will infect their spinal column and force you to get people up the ass.

Letz not talk about George Bush here. He is too cheap to be discussed in Betanews.

Also I am challenging all those religious fellas who are against science to STOP using anything that is created by science and technology. As long as you don't do that, you are a hypocrite. Do that first and then talk about science.

Let us all remember what Bertrand Russell said
"I am as firmly convinced that religions do harm as I am that they are untrue"

You are a putz

Church and state should be seperated. Whether you want to admit it or not, the US society is dictated to and ruled by "christian (small c) standards and rules"
Being an ex-christian (ex because I got so fed up with the blatant hypocracy of the whole "christian movement" and moved to a religion that TRUELY practices what they preach, all are brothers and love one another.

MS has no business writing letters to employees about what their beliefs and/or practices are out of the workplace. It's a damn job people... not a lifestyle.

Am I the only person why sees the Bible as tolerating Incest in it's early stages?

It's like a Mills and Boon novel, except originally written in latin, and no visible nudity o.o

Sounds like you have some unresolved issues regarding your mother, father, sister, brother, and any pets in the family.

They read the Bible.. Kidding.. Couldn't resist.

... and a big man to admit and learn from his mistakes. Most god-believers just blame their hate on others, and then claim they are the ones who are "victims." If you spend you life "hatin' on" gays, then your life is going to be long and miserable. More importantly, replace the words "be who you are" with Ballmer's "diversity" and the letter becomes quite clear. I admire Microsoft more today than I did yesterday. I hope you do, too, in this one, small way.

Apparently NO ONE has ever read Romans 1. Also you have to think about how employees who aren't gay feel when they are forced to work with those who are, especially if they are of the same gender. It amazes me how ignorant people in this world are to the gathering darkness and COMPLETE loss of morality. It seems that in this world, it's all about image, and nothing about common sense.

Forced to work with people who are? That has so, so many different potential connotations. Please explain that one.

That could easily mean: "Religious views should trump the civil rights of ALL Americans." OR "There is no place for GLT people in the workplace because they offend 'us'".

Am I together that some people are somehow being harmed by working with people that are different them themselves? Where have I heard that argument before..

And apparently, you haven't read your Bible either.

Hate the sin, not the sinner. Love thy neighbor as thyself. Sound familiar! It is people like you that take bits of the Bible and twist them to make your idiotic point.

The number one message of the Bible is to get along with one another. Leave everything else to Him.

Don't go that route--I can name scriptures too, but since few people here believe the bible to be 100% "God-breathed", it means little here (sadley). However I might point out that regardless of opinion, the fact is the Bible is the #1 best-selling book of all time. If you read it as 'literature' if nothing else, Jesus is either all that He claims He is or He is the biggest con-artist of all time. Back to the subject...

"After looking at the question from all sides, I've concluded that diversity in the workplace is such an important issue for our business that it should be included in our legislative agenda."

I believe this was definately pressured back on MS by certain groups where hypocracy rules. Right, I'm talking about specific groups OF gays that bash everyone that does not believe their way, yet bash people for 'gay bashing'. Not all of them, but I seem to know quite a few. I am not doing that here, I am speaking of the select few that want their opinions to be law so much they'd ruin everyone elses life to do so.

Oh, and I have read Romans 1 BTW...

It doesn't matter what you call Him. "Budda", "Ala" there are more similarities than differences. They all believe in a higher power.

The rest of what you are trying to say, needs to be clarified.

People who hate suck, and I hate them. They shouldn't have an opinion I don't like.

You hate and therefore, you suck?

Alan Turing

One name... keystroke

Let's delete all gays from history. let's delete all their work because it is suspect. do you really use a computer - does it ask you when you login what your sexual preference is? are your eyes blue ...is your hair blond? do you stutter. Just what do you believe? My Gawd the ignorance here is amazing sometimes. You bigoted young obnoxios souls probably think a Pope who just died is a hero because he sainted a man he spent time with in a prisoner of war camp who was his idol turned and destroyed diginity. your clue will be in hell ... glad MS changed their mind.

Christ wasn't a Christian and glad he wasn't the version we see now. He would be ashamed of some of his believers. Check the message.

Tolerance of individuals is entirely different than tolerance of an agenda driven lifestyle constantly being pushed on our society with demands of acceptance. I can and do treat gays with respect as people, but I will never grant them the acceptance they demand for their choice in actions.

I have been a loyal Microsoft user and promoter for many years; no more. I will now go open source whenever a viable choice is available.

Sure, there are gay open source coders, but neither they nor Microsoft will be getting my money.

I vote with my dollars when possible and I can no longer support Microsoft because of this stance.

so delete windows from your machine. stop eating angus beef. crawl in a hole. vote for George again. Kill more iraqis. mmm Syria. nope that would be armageddon. get real. is this really 2005?

but I will never grant them the acceptance they demand for their choice in actions.
and you sir mamn it do not have mine and I do not require it to do technology or function. If anything be a constitutionalist for god sake. I respect your opinion. respect mine.

a person is a person - their sexual orientation is none of your business, nor is the sexual orientation of anyone you're not dating.

the right to judge someone's fitness for anything isn't yours - and thank the stars for that small miracle.

Actually there was a company that made all their workers fit. They got sued however when they made their workers stop smoking or be fired. I believe it was six months to quit smoking any way you could. Otherwise, any trace of nicotine in your body would mean you were fired.

But you are not respecting their decisions and therefore, how do you expect them to respect you.

Yeah, right. Some way, some how, you are and will(in the future) support them. In your job, in your home, in a business you patron, etc. You will.

And if you think that, even if you could boycott them that they will even notice your existance or lack of revenue. I have to laugh! LOL

You are right, but as we have seen, when it comes to gay rights they are making their sexual orientation our business and telling everyone else about it.

I remember the good ole days, when there was such a place as a closet, and the gays stayed in there. But someone came out and they have convinced everyone else who is gay to come out also. That wasn't bad until they came out and had to announce it to the whole world and shove it down the throats of everyone else.

You just didn't have to come out of the closet yelling "HELLO, HERE I AM! MY NAME IS BRAD AND I AM GAY! DO YOU LIKE ME BECAUSE I AM GAY? I HAVE MANY GAY FRIENDS AND THEY WORK WITH YOU! DON'T HURT MY FEELINGS!"

We could care less, just SHUT UP! Your sexual orientation is private and should be kept that way. We don't want or care to know about it.

I read that story. Bold move.

Though I believe we live in a free society(LOL) I do believe that we all should not have to pay for the ignorance of others. (in this case higher insurance) I think it was a good idea, but did infringe upon their rights.

"a person is a person - their sexual orientation is none of your business..."

Just refering to that part of the quote here--this is why "Gay rights" and "Women's rights" etc. bugs me so much. Women should not have MORE rights than men, and gays should not have MORE rights than straight people. Addressing it this way is just stupid. I'm for People's Rights--gay, straight, man, and woman, regardless of race--we can marry a person of the opposite sex. Gays have no more rights than I do on that issue. We should never emphasize rights for a particular group when that group has the same rights as we do already.

That is why this whole issue bugs me. It's pressure from extremists that force companies to support something like that. Again I am not bashing gays at all--nor was MS when they withdrew support. Why should they support a "Gay Rights" division but not support a "Straights' Rights" group? All I am saying is that we should have equal rights--if gays can marry same-sex, just make sure that straights can too (not that they would but hopefully you see my point).

Thanks for reverting to immature comments like those, that'll sure get people to value your opinion.

So gay people should hide their relationships and only show affection in private because it offends you as opposed to you who can do what you want in public? How nice.

It all comes down to:

"Your gay! I don't care. Stop telling me."

There are several other groups being discriminated against also. Some way more important than how you feel. MS wants to support them, that is there perogative. I will work next to them, just stop telling us that you are gay, and shoving it down our throats.

You can rationalize your situation any way you have to in order to feel good about yourself, but the rest of us do not have to accept it. We can either like it or dislike it, that is our right. I will leave you alone and not care one bit what you do in your private life. The problem lies in that if we ignore your type and not associate with you, we are called biggots.

This should be a non-issue simply because people that are qualified for a job should not be discriminated against due to their sexual orientation.

People that disagree can respectfully stop buying Microsoft products, but investors will still invest so long as they continue to reap huge profits off of their monopoly. ;-)

I'm glad...now they need to fire the jebus freak they hired...I'm so sick of religion mixing with politics... This country is on its way to a theocracy.

And of course, you've always got that one guy who apparently knows everything who blames the whole thing on Christians. Great job moron. I personally think this is a bad thing for MS. They should have stuck with their decision to be neutral and stuck with it. Sexual orientation has nothing to do with the development and the distribution of software. This shouldn't even be an issue. Yes, they shouldn't discriminate against anyone, but this shouldn't be as big an issue as it is.

I agree..it shouldn't be a issue at all within a company...but it's the loony so-called Christians destroying America... I'm tired of it..it's like Nazi Germany. We even had a church here in NC take their church membership to the board of elections and found out which members were Democrats and told them either vote for Bush or leave the church... C'mon!!!! I loose my respect for 'Christians' more and more each day.

I agree!! Yes, Microsoft is in the software business. They are also in the people business, in the sense of being an international employer, therefore touched by non-discrimination in employment.

In the beginning, MS had taken a stance on the issue, in keeping with non-discrimination. It was a local fundamentalist Christian preacher who chose to threaten MS and make it a political issue. It is that same bunch of fundamentalists who pressure politicians regarding abortion, right to die and other matters of personal conscience...and demand that their moral values be legislated for everyone. Then, when someone balks, they are the first to cry that it shouldn't be a political issue.

If these same fundamentalists would keep their values in their own homes and churches, leaving everyone else to make their personal choices, the same way, perhaps businesses like MS would remain neutral.

Remaining neutral in matters of personal choice amounts to accepting the values of another. No, it's stand up, or else allow these moralists to make your choices for you.

While I do not make the same choices as many others do, they have a right, just as everyone else...to make that choice freely and without facing discrimination.

How did this turn into a christian thing...

don't try to blame everything on christians... right now u are doing exactly what you are accusing them of doing...

Christians these days have hardly any say... their morals are being stripped away every day...
part of those morals are that same sex relationships are not allowed...
as christians they have the duty to protect those morals.
and as americans they have the right to protect those morals.
even if they lose that fight... it still doesnt mean they have to accept it... just live with it.

just like some people have to live with sex offenders in their neighbourhood...
They might not accept it at all... but they live with it anyway.

Just because there are idiot people out there claiming to do what they do in the name of chrisitanity doesn't mean you can put everyone in that same category...

Christianity down at it's roots is a peacefull religion... so many people have twisted and turned it into something that the religion seems inaccessible for a lot of people.

Anyway... don't want to get to deep into all this
just my piece of the pie :-)

They still do not have the right to block leglislation that provides people with protection against discrimination no matter what their views are. There should be no such thing as a second class citizen because a majority decides that they are morally against their "lifestyle".

Christians in the US have plenty of representation from the White House on down. That is not an issue.

They see what is on TV and panic, going off on pseudospiritual crusuades against "liberals" and lamenting the courts. TV is not the real world. In the real world they have plenty of hold all across the nation and routinely impose their private religious views on others.

It's the laisse faire capitalism that "christian" conservatives stand behind that is responsible for the way media ownership is now. Media companies will do or show anything for a quick buck and that is their only agenda, but people do not seem to make that connection.

They'll censor and take the funding away from PBS before they blame the people who do not have any motivation other than the almighty dollar. God loves corporations.

Thanks. It's odd... Science is as much of a cult or religion as Christianity ever has been (Define religion: a strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny. Since Science only has *theories* --We all have the same *facts*, Science cannot reveal any new *facts*, they don't exist...only presuppositions on the facts -- then Science is a religion in which the participants hold themselves to be the 'deities' since they believe they themselves are without err).
*****OFF the soap box now******
Microsoft has the right, just as any corporation does, to take a stance on whatever they want. Personally, I think it's all PR anyway, and really could care less if M$ supports it anyway. Any Christian who believes that M$ or any of it's employees are going to burn in Hell because of this are LOONY. (Just in case you are wondering, yes, I am a BORN AGAIN CHRISTIAN) Christ calls us to LOVE THE SINNER, HATE THE SIN. Let GOD cast the judgement. We are called to try and save people at every turn...and this may end up being a large opportunity for Christians to do just that. However, they can't do that if they spend all their time decrying the horror of a large corporation supporting EQUAL RIGHTS. Remember:
LOVE THY NEIGHBOR AS THYSELF
But who is my neighbor? EVERYONE

I'm sick of Science teaching that the Truth is the Big Bang *Theory*...or any other such Theory. If you're going to teach one theory of the creation of the world, teach them all. Quit whining about the Jesus freaks. The only reason (even DARWIN admitted before he died) that Science does not like the Judeo-Christian religion is because it is the *only* religion in the world that is irrefutable. There is nothing in it's texts that have been able to be disproven. Quit this religion-badgering attempt to throw your diatribe against any religion onto a blog. You have only exposed your lack of intelligence.

So is eating shell fish and wearing clothing of mixed fibers... I wonder how many 'preachers' eat at Red Lobster and wear those cotton/polyester blend suits. I wanna know what Jesus had to say about Homosexuality??? hum? WWJD

Here is a bible-based FAQ.

a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

d) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

e) I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

f) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an Abomination (Lev 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

g) Lev 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev 19:27. How should they die?

i) I know from Lev 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

j) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev 24:10-16) Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

It's odd that so many people like to mock the idea of being a Christian. The funny thing is that so many people say they are Christian, but couldn't tell you what the plan of Salvation is. Sad. That's what I would classify as a "false" or "Sunday" Christian. The truth of the matter is, if you are a Christian, then you are first and foremost a Christian. I'm a brother and a husband. But I'm a Christian that happens to be a brother and a husband. I'm a friend to many...but I'm a Christian that happens to have friends. When George W. Bush said that he was a Christian, so many people mocked him for saying that he was a Christian who just happened to be President. Oddly enough, anything else would be hypocritical to being a Christian. If he had claimed that he was our President who just happened to be Christian, then that would mean that he placed God second...and that is breaking God's Commandments... Odd...so many criticized him for not being a hypocrite. Imagine, that means all of those 'intellectuals' who criticized him for just that are actually wanting our President to be a hypocrite?

People criticize him because he is a terrible President.

They might not have mocked him quite so much if he'd been the Christian Peace President instead of the Christian War President. He chose the title..

Shouldn't be an issue? Come on...MS has >60,000 employees and millions of share holders. Shouldn't they stand up for the rights of those people?

Yes Satan, you're absolutely right!

What Jesus would do and what George Bush has done are on the opposite ends of the spectrum. George Bush is a hypocrite BECAUSE he calls himself a Christian. Christians everywhere should be outraged.

Im all for non-discrimination in the work place, but turning any privately owned organization into a political tool should be illegal.

This is the same BS that had the church pushing their rights over courts and governments.

this computer was not created by god you are playing with a toy of Satan. visit a ranch. go back to nothing. figure it all out in your head since science has no affect on reality as far as you computer is concerned. amazing the logic here at times.

should stay away from that back side then :-) and keep to the front. check your sources - you have a computer for god sake! Always amazes me how many Christians are Jews and Muslims. they is a history that proceeds you. that isn't lies and lies.

GEORGE BUSH IS NOT A CHRISTIAN.

GET A ****ING CLUE.

I know reality bites.

let's just all crawl back in the gargage and do DOS again :-) It was such a simpler life - so limited and safe. :-) La La La

Here is a bible-based FAQ.

a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?.. "yup they don't like burgers."

b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?... 2/3's of the world next to nothing.

c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense... "you didn't have sisters - four of them :-)"

d) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?..."damn there are a few Canadians I would at least like to know :-)"

e) I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?... "Yup, obviously to be faithful...we have no choice in the matter."

f) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an Abomination (Lev 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?..."popsicles are worse than shrimp."

g) Lev 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?...:don't wiggle it affects focus"

h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev 19:27. How should they die?..."by visiting a retired marine barber in Wyoming."

i) I know from Lev 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?..."if they are cowhide."

j) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev 24:10-16) Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)..."yup. that isn't being judgmental - stoning is a flexible endeavor."

Score: reality

Amen to that.

Might as well...lol

All the Christian bashing in this thread reminds me of the 1930's in Germany. Remove the word *Jew* and insert *Christian*.

If this is the kind of folks who support M$'s foray into public policy on this issue, then I seriously need to reconsider my OS and where I spend my $$$$.

Most scientific research has successfully proven *how* events and "miracles" from the Bible and other religious texts really happened (and that they did, in fact, happen)... Science still has no answer for WHY things happen nor can they prove any of their own theories (which is why decades and centuries after they are developed they are still called theories).

It seems ironic--- no, hypocritical-- that the people who promote racial and sexual equality and diversity are the same ones who refuse to allow diverse universe-creation ideas and argue that science is the only reality... oh yes, and let's not forget their constant religion bashing in the process.

I find it disheartening that so many people hate religions (of any form) because of the actions of cults and terrorists and generalize that some corrupt, perverted priests signify what all followers are like.

This is a response to the following post.
posted by nightops
May 6, 2005 - 6:34 PM

BUSH IS A ****ING HIPOCRITE, A MURDERER, AN IDIOT,
A OIL THIEF, AND A ****ING RETARD!!!
Have you ever noticed Georgie never admits to wrong doing? isn't lying a sin?

Actually, to be "science" it has to meet certain criterion. "Creationism" or "Intelligent Design" theories aren't really scientific theories; it is primary whereas science is secondary ("why" as opposed to "how"). It is just religion masked as science. I believe this was spelled out in the Supreme Court case regarding the requirement of the teaching of Genesis in Alabama(?) [scientific theories & natural laws]. Frankly, Intelligent Design could be more feasible if they didn't take Genesis out of context. And my gosh do a lot of religious zealots take scripture out of context. Any good scripture scholar will not take any word in the Bible for what it is. For instance, Genesis has 2 different contradicting creation stories. The only way to resolve this is to understand that they aren't literal. It wasn't meant to be literal, but somehow people seem to ignore these discrepancies (yes, there are a large amount of discrepancies due to how the scriptures were compiled; or similarities to other styles of writing of the time).
As for why science is still theory, it's because you really can't really prove science. Science is based on disproving theories, not making things fact. Most of science is not positive validation but disproof. Good theories are theories that are yet to be disproved. That is science.
Frankly both sides are at fault, for misconceptions of both science and religion. Everyone is just too stubborn in their ways.

Chritianity is irrefutable?

That's the most laughable piece of nonsense I've ever heard - there is so much contradictory nonsense in the christian bible, the fact that anyone at all takes it seriously is a pathetic testament to the weak will of humanity.

Actually, Jaypup may well be correct, i.e. religion seems to me to have a very tight grip on the legislative agenda throughout the U.S. I am glad I live in a place where religion and politics can co-exist separately. I see the U.S. becoming much like the book "The Handmaid's Tale", a priviledged class choosing and taking whatever they want with full legal approval.

You're glad are you? What's it like living in Hell anyway?

>>All the Christian bashing in this thread reminds me of the 1930's in Germany. Remove the word *Jew* and insert *Christian*.

WOW, can you feel the hatred and bigotry in these posts?

Who the hell are you to ask him what it's like in hell?

Crawl back in your hole.

Who's bashing Christians, sorry I'm not following the threads pretty much imply quite the opposite.

Why are we talking about religion anyway? This is about Gay rights, and I'm sorry religion has absolutely nothing to do with it. Equal rights applies to all people no matter what color they are, how well "educated" they are, or who they sleep with.

Crying /God|Jesus|Satan|Bible/ is just stupid, and a non issue since we as Americans put rule of law first, and religion second. I know that burns some of you up, but tough s*** you don't have the right to push your religion on anyone no matter what your religion is.

He is still our president even if you don't agree with what you think he may have done or not done, so a show little respect please.

IN RESPONSE TO FEWT POST
posted by fewt
May 7, 2005 - 9:15 PM

Fewt i definitely respect you, since you
can come with intelectual replys to many
post here at betanews.com. But I as an
individual don't respect Mr. Bush regardless
of him being the president. Everything i've
stated can be proven to be true. Unfortunately,
Mr. Bush has not earn my respect. nuff said!!!

Interesting point.

"I am glad I live in a place where religion and politics can co-exist separately."

How is that hell? People are free to worship as they choose and that right, along with the rights of all others, should be protected by the state. The best thing that ever happened to religion is the seperation of church and state.

There should be no such thing as "Womens rights" or "Gay rights". Unfortunately in our society today, people require that these rights are established to protect the rights those individuals as Americans already had but were never allowed to exercise. I wish Americans would respect America first, and then their religion however that will never happen so these laws are absolutely necessary to protect people from each other.

It's a messed up situation, but until someone finds a way for everyone to get along we have to define rules to ensure everyone has equal protections afforded us by the Constitution of the United States.

;-)

Excuse me for having an opinion which doesn't agree with yours! Talk about hatred!!

That wasn't an opinion, it was a blatant attack.

Thought I might just say something non-offensive about all this.

Apparently the Christian sterotype nowadays is just someone who says that all people with sinful life-styles are damned to hell. And there are, unfortunately, some people like that.
But, a *good* Christian knows that while those life-styles are immoral, they are still people, and to be treated as such, but know that they must warn them of this, and that Jesus also still loves them; or else they would be held accountable for not telling them the truth about the situation. Likewise, anybody that tells them right off the bat that they are going to hell (in a rude way, anyways), is held accountable for possibly turning them away from Christianity.

I personally don't like what Microsoft is doing, but I'm not going to switch over because of it. Mostly because I am too used to Windows. Although, it is true that Religion-Wise people that advocate such things are equally sinful.

I am not trying to push beliefs on anyone, I am just trying to clarify what a *good* and *righteous* Christian would do, not what the stereotypical Christian you people keep ripping on would do.

Also, this is kind of asenine. It is a small belief of mine that "special rights" create boundaries between "minorities". I still think that immoralities should be recognized, but the whole prospect of "special rights" is dumb. Not only "whites" are racist. There are racists from every "race", and this gives them an edge.

You are a waste of time and so is this topic.

Awwww, did I hurt your feelings?

It's not necessary to attack me. I didn't do anything wrong, you did.

Why do I keep seeing special rights?? Gay and Lessbians dont want "special" rights, not even sort of what is being asked is to be given the same consideration as straight folks. Nobodys pushing a lifestyle down anyones throat because it isnt a lifestyle which implies choice... there is no choice I wasnt given a card with choices on my orientation (not a preference) to fill out. We are made as we are, gay, straight bi whatever there is no choice. For a person who is born gay who wants nothing mnore then the right to choose a life partner and have the same rights as a straight persons life partner is only right. So go ahead leave MS because you are forced to work with folks who different then you. Lest ye forget God made straight , gay ,lesbians and bi people. Be who you are and never except discrimination. Gay people are just folks they are your neighbors, your friends and co workers, shame on those who in the name of God feel it's like an invasion. Gimmie a break. Right on MS

Religion is politics. Why do you think there is a POPE, CADINALS, PRIESTS. Sound like a pyramid. Who do you think ruled people 1,000 of years ago and is still doing it today?

Your argument needs to be rethought.

Separation of church and state?

Wow! This nation was founded upon religious ideals. Many of the laws you see are rooted in religion.

Religion is a political institution. That is why there is a chain of command. Let's see if the POPE will announce to the Catholics that they will have nothing to do with MS. It won't happen. Why? Because the powers that be(Pope/Cardinals) know that it would not be able to stand on one leg. Pressure from politicians would be in place.

On the opposite side of the coin, why isn't gay rights or abortion abolished - religious pressure. You need politics to rule the masses, whether it be religion or any form of gov't.

Telling someone "What's it like in Hell" is not an opinion. It is an attack!

You make some great points! I like what you have said.

To try to answer your second question as to why scientists bash religion, I suspect it is due the the nature that people of any religion do not follow the teachings of their own laws - primarily to love one another - to get along - to hate sin, not each other - leave judgement to HIM!

We just don't get it. We are so concerned about ourselves and our own little lives. IMO . . . we search for ways in which to make us feel better - any way we can. Often we justify the way we think or preach, by stepping on or bashing those we don't understand or are different.

EVERY LEGAL American citizen is granted the same rights.
Homosexuals are granted the same INDIVIDUAL rights as everyone else.
They are saying loud and clear that they don’t respect us.. but they demand that we respect what they want.
Marriage is a sacred event and has been the cornerstone of many societies all over the world.
Homosexuals come along and demand we change the rules for them. And that’s crap..
If you think they are somehow being cheated out of benefits then work to change the laws regarding benefits.. but don’t demand that we change our belief that marriage is between a man and a woman.
You gotta give respect to get respect.
And the way I see it, they are saying FU – change what you think because we want you to.
I don’t have a problem with people being gay.. they can be gay all they want.. but they should keep it to themselves.. just like I don’t run down the street and say look at me look at me I’m straight..
Guess what people I hate cottage cheese is that ok with you? Is it ok that I DON’T like something? Or for that matter someone or someone’s life style?
Tell me why I MUST accept SOMEONE ELSES lifestyle?
And if I don’t, I’m a racist, a bigot, a hater, a bad person…. Who died and made you judge and jury of what it’s ok to like and not like?
You hate me because I hate? How idiotic is that..

I was with you up until your misrepresented try at statistics. NOT TRUE.

In fact, Christianity is growing, and still the fasting growing religion. Might it be that the church is not fulfilling its' obligation to its people. More importantly, those so-called "Christians" that are doing the very thing we see in these posts. They are not following the teachings laid out to them, but use them as a way to attack others - when they should be adhering to these themselves.

We - Americans - created this society in which we live in. We left other countries to come here to escape from religions persecution, just to do the very same thing. Now, people are coming here for different reasons(political, money, criminal) and it adds to the mix of our moral and value degradation.

Take a look at America. It is a "melting pot". So many different people with diverse backgrounds. Everyone wants something different, and they do not want to get along with you, they want you to get along with them.

Take a look at this post alone. We started with an article related to MS and its' stand on the issue. Look how far off topic we have gotten. Look at the backgrounds of us all.

Actually, this is only proof of how the so-called "Christians" are degrading the religion. Everything is taken out of context to serve your purpose, but not the one it was intended to do. Though there might be questionable acts in the Bible, you exploit them further in this post.

I could go down each one and explain it for you, but it would be pointless - intellect can only be achieved when the brain is able/willing.

if your goal was to put down Christianity, then you have achieved nothing. For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. Your ignorance, has just made us all smarter.

...must tread carefully here. First of all the 'christian bible'--no such thing. There are many 'versions' or 'translations' of the bible, but no original copy. However there are two major texts in which we derive our New and Old testiments. To simplify, the King James Version comes from one, and 99% of all other versions come from the other. I'm not going to go so far as to argue which is correct but both are very, very different and it is more than just "thee's" and "thou's". Much of the arguments of the Bible's apparent contradictions are simply paradoxes, but others are comparing one text to another. THE TWO TEXTS CLEARLY DISAGREE on key issues in the New Testiment, just turn to Mark 16:9 and later, see what your Bible has to say about it (non-king james versions only). However they do agree historically, though there are some real tough ones involving 2 Kings and 2 Chronicles timeline. Since I am waaayy off subject now I think I'll shut up for now--just can't stand unanswered attacks on the best selling book of all time.

As a Christian Homosexual Systems Analyst, I have a couple of things to say on this topic:

First of all. Jesus never said ANYTHING about homosexuality. In fact, the one time that he mentions Sodom and Gomora it's in referrence to a town's inhospitality to the preaching of the disciples. If homosexuality is such a big deal, then you would think that He would have made some mention of it.

Homosexuality is not a major issue in the bible. In fact, to find anything on the subject you really need to search for it. The few referrences that do exist are cryptic and debateable.

And of course there's always Christianity's little secret: David and Jonathan were lovers. Oh, I know your preacher told you they were really just good friends when David told Jonathan, "I am distressed for thee, my brother Jonathan: very pleasant hast thou been unto me: thy love to me was wonderful, passing the love of women." 2Sa 1:26. Uh huh.... right.... just good friends.

Secondly, as for your going on about how homosexuals are trying to destroy the sactity of marrage. Please show me in the bible where it demands that marrage be one man and one woman. If you are going to use the bible as an example then polygyny is what's taught. Example:

Abraham Married 3 Women
Jacob Married 4 Women
Moses Married 2 Women
King David Married At Least 4 Women

Although Jesus did not say anything about homosexuality, he most certainly did have something to say on marrage:

"Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery, and the man who marries a divorced woman commits adultery." Luke 16:18

"Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her. And if she divorces her husband and marries another man, she commits adultery." Mark.10:11-12

In essance, anyone who divorces and remarries commits adultry every day that he/she stays with that "new wife/husband". Can you say unrepentant sin? I won't hold my breath to hear that one preached in the church on Sunday. Wouldn't want to piss off 50% of your congregation. On the other hand, it's easy to rally around an issue that doesn't effect you. Like homosexuality for instance...

It wasn't that long ago that southern ministers preached that it was biblically justifed to have slaves. It also wasn't that long ago that there were laws against blacks and whites marrying. There used to be laws against a woman's right to own property. But times change and to suggest any of those ideas, which were the norm back then, today would seem ludicras. Maybe, just maybe your childred will be saying, " how could they have been so narrow minded," one day when it comes to gay people marrying.

Lastly, to the person who suggested boycotting Microsoft because they support homosexuals, you might as well go live on a deserted island because we are everywhere.

The founding fathers were deiest and Washington even said publicly that the US is not a christian country. The US Constitution was founded on Loch, etc... Not Christianity.

The point is that people take the bible out of context to support their own agenda and it could just as easily be done to discredit the bible itself.

It's also funny. That was from the West Wing.

Bible: Used to dignify slavery in the past when selectively interpreted. That is a shame because the overall message is wonderful. Enough said.

ABEND954:
from your post
"Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery, and the man who marries a divorced woman commits adultery." Luke 16:18

"Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her. And if she divorces her husband and marries another man, she commits adultery." Mark.10:11-12

Man/he = husband
woman/she/her = wife
does it need to be more clearly spelled out?
it doesnt say Husband & husband does it?

STP: are you refering to common law marriage?
if so , only 15 states recognize that.

since this really isnt the place to go into a full blow discussion about this i'll try to be breif, i will say your right about one thing.. i have never walked in your shoes and i do not have the experience to speak about a *portion* of this topic, since i'm not a homosexual.

but when i say you should "keep it to your self"
i'm not saying you cant hold hands in public..
i'm saying when i walk down town, i dont want to get ran over by a horde of gays screaming and waving signs saying were gay and were proud of it..
this whole issue is in my face and seeks to change what i belive in(and i'm not religous).
i cant simply change the channel on this issue because it's constantly being brought up every where i go.
so i'm invovled even though i'm not gay.

and even though the issue of benefits is constatnly brought up.. i really dont think it's about that.. it's about "normal" people accepting those who are different.
when the *vast* majority of people are 1 way they are labeled as *normal* and those who are not like that are different.. so i think this is more about the norms accepting the non-norms..

i dont think i should have to if dont want to.
as stupid as you make think this sounds.
i think marriage is for 1 man and 1 woman and it should stay that way.
change the laws to give you benefits, i dont care.. doesnt bother me.
what bothers me is that u want me to accept something i dont belive in.

Rwinger, from your post:
Man/he = husband
woman/she/her = wife
does it need to be more clearly spelled out?
it doesnt say Husband & husband does it?

Hmmm... since when does silence (or absence) on a subject denote dissent? If that is the case, since in biblical times there were only monarchies, we must assume that democracies (since they are not mentioned in the bible) are unnatural, wrong, and against the will of God.

You can't say scripture disagrees with something just because it doesn't mention it. Dogs are mentioned 15 times in the bible, while cat's arn't mentioned at all. By your thinking we must infer that dogs are good and cats are evil. (Actually I kind of do agree with that!)

"what bothers me is that u want me to accept something i dont belive in. "

How arrogant is that statement?!

WOW

hrmph

very disturbing

I don't believe in Budda or any other God for that matter but I accept that others do by living in a diverse world and respect people by not trying to sell my beliefs to others. I don't *like* public displays of affection by gays BUT I understand that they have the right to it and I respect it. I also believe that it is none of mine, yours, or anyone elses business if they want to marry and we should all butt out and let them.

They wouldn't complain as loud if we let them be people too.

It's not my thing, but who am I to say that it can't be yours?

This is America damn it respect your country by respecting it's people!

Because we are Americans and because we refuse to hide any more we demned the same rights. And who the hell said marriage is just a christian thing at all hell we aint even gonnan go that far, in the civil union, the legal document religion be damned. No I dont hate you I pity you.

ABEND954 and STP well said.

re: about "normal" people accepting those who are different.
when the *vast* majority of people are 1 way they are labeled as *normal* and those who are not like that are different.. so i think this is more about the norms accepting the non-norms..

How dare you insinuate that gay people are not normal.

how dare i? i did..
have you not ever heard of people saying "it's out of the norm"
so quick to judge..

explain to me how that is arrogant? you just say it is.. but you dont explain how..
as an american i can believe in whatever i want.. i can also not believe in whatever i want..
i dont think 2 men should be allowed to marry.
am i not entitled to think that?
11 states put it up for vote this year.. and all eleven voted down gay marriage..
sorry you have a problem with that.. but you'll have to deal with it..

you can take that however you want.. your right to do so.. but i think if some special provisions were to be made for homosexuals.. then it would have been said.

I think we should just build a concentration camp for all the gays trying to take over the meaning of "Marriage". Starve them a little then maybe they would figure out another name for their union.

OOPS. Did I say this outlout?

People like you is why abortion is still legal in the US..and yes I said THAT out loud.

People didn't like interracial marriage either. That does not mean it should not be legal.

Projecting are we?

LMAO!!! That's why he was re-elected with more votes cast for him than any candidate in our nation's***ory.

You mean like FDR was a *peace* president, right?

good for you..
i have morals and beliefs and i'm tired of people trying to tell me it's not ok to have them just because they want to further thier agenda..
we've gotten this far on good morals and i see no reason to just throw up our hands and say screw it..

"If some provisions were made," the computers would be acknowledged, right? Right? Also, I don't think Jesus said anything allowing for posting nonsensical and hypocrytical stuff on news forums.

Take a deep breath. Obviously, you don't like your views challenged, especially since some of the challengers point to your rather limited understanding of the subject. You're not gay, you lack sufficient mental faculties to acknowledge different outlook from yours and you feel strong need to be very vocal, even agressive about it.
Now, I may wonder about your apparent insecurity -- adults should be capable of polite conversation without taking such aggressive stance (a stance usually denoting significant insecurity) -- but I am not going to. You're an adult and your problems are yours to cope with.

Take a hint... and take a hike.

No regards this time,
Ruemere
PS. My opinion: people are people. And the quality of a human being is derived from that being's deeds. Everything else, skin hue, beliefs, age, sex (well, perhaps apart from personal hygiene) is unimportant.

So wrong you are.

You can *PROVE* he is a retard?!?

In reality, none of us truly know if he is Christian or not--is he claiming to be Christian for his own gain, or is he who he says he is? I believe the latter, though it cannot be proven or disproven. Does anyone here know Bush personally? Kinda hard to judje his heart on the matter then...

""If some provisions were made," the computers would be acknowledged, right? Right? Also, I don't think Jesus said anything allowing for posting nonsensical and hypocrytical stuff on news forums."

talk about nonsensical.. this makes no sense what so ever..

what irks me the most is for some reason you seem to feel i dont have a right to my views.. no i dont like them challenged.. because they are MY views and i have a right to them. all of this is a matter of opinion and who are you to tell me that i cant defend my views?
and i dont see how i was overly agressive? 4 and 5 people were coming at me.. i responded to all and didnt start name calling or bashing or anything of the such.. so your way off here.

and finally.. you dont have to have children to understand how to raise them, nor do you have to own a car to know how to drive one..
just because i'm not gay, doesnt mean i'm not able to formulate an opinion on the subject.

as to me taking a hike? who the hell are you to tell me to get off a public web site?

More like selective morals.

When was the last time that you boycotted an R rated movie due to it's sex, violence, and language?

When have you ever said anything to a neighbor or business associate, or your boss for using the Lord's name in vain?

Have you boycotted movies/TV with Brad Pitt, Jennifer Aniston, or Angelina Jolie because they promote adultry and divorce?

Do you allow men who have been divorced to become leaders of your boyscout troups? What kind of model is that for children?

Have you stopped watching basketball or stopped buying Nike products to show your moral outrage for players who womanize and rape?

no, I didn't think so...

"you dont have to have children"

You have no idea how having children changes your views on life, and the lives of those around you.

You can't know until you do.

Have I heard people say out of the norm? Perhaps I have but most of them refer to those who cannot nor will not accept others who are are not closed minded neocons. I sir am normal

RWinger wrote:
"what irks me the most is for some reason you seem to feel i dont have a right to my views.. no i dont like them challenged.. because they are MY views and i have a right to them. all of this is a matter of opinion and who are you to tell me that i cant defend my views?"

You have every right to your own views. However, in the immortal words of Josh Billings', "The longer I live the more I find it necessary to reexamine those things about which I was once most certain."

Yes, I am challenging your beliefs and asking you to reevaluate what you believe and why you believe it. Do you believe what you believe because of society? church? scripture? or simple prejudice? I challenge you to read a letter written by a heterosexual married minister and theologian. It's a bit lengthy, but it's extreemly well researched. If you want to get to the meat of the scriptural evidence, skip to Appendix B. But the letter as a whole examines homosexuality from every angle.

It's called A Letter To Louise and it can be found at: http://www.godmademegay.com/Letter.htm

The Sage of Baltimore put it so better than I can...

"As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron." — H. L. Mencken

Democracy is the art and science of running the circus from the monkey cage.
H. L. Mencken

The men American people admire most extravagantly are the most daring liars; the men they detest most violently are those who try and tell them the truth
--H. L. Mencken

The most dangerous man to any government is the man who is able to think things out...without regard to the prevailing superstitions and taboos. Almost inevitably he comes to the conclusion that the government he lives under is dishonest, insane, intolerable.
--H. L. Mencken

Hi, STP.

I was reading over your 'bible-based FAQ'. I know there are a zillion other posts, but here's a couple things you might consider:

1. The Bible that Christians use is always capitalized. You might be referring to the Red Hat 8 Bible - we can't be sure. ;^D

2. All the stuff you listed is 'life-style rules' from the Old Testament. These are rules that God imposed on a specific group of people at a specific time in history. That was all pre-Jesus. It doesn't apply to Christians - never has.

I did, though, really appreciate your apparent attempt to be funny with stuff you don't seem to know. I'm sure you gave it your best effort.

David

Hi, Nerc0ne.

What did Bush lie about?

David

Hi, Wyojake.

You might be right about Bush. What's the definition of a 'Christian', anyway?

David

Hi, Zenarcher.

You're probably right, but how, exactly did Bush become the 'Christian War President' and how could he have instead become the 'Christian Peace President'?

Thanks!

David

Hi, Tannman1.

It's a choice because it's a behavior. Anything we do is a choice. We can either do something or do something else. It's totally up to us.

One the other hand, ethnicity and sex are completely out of our hands. There's nothing we can do or not do change those personal characteristics. We're simply born that way.

David

Hi, Abend954.

You made some great discussion points. Here's a couple of my comments on yours...

* Christianity is not limited to just those red words in the Bible.

* God said that men sleeping together is 'detestable'. It doesn't seem so 'cryptic and debateable' to me...

* Cute story about David & Jonathan... ;^D

* You forgot to mention Solomon's 700 wives and 300 concubines. These folks you mentioned are all Old Testament Hebrew folks. Whatever they did doesn't necessarily apply to Christians.

* You're absolutely about Christ's comments about marriage. I admit, it's not likely, but if you really give it some thought, perhaps you'll see your quotes as support for the 'sanctity of marriage'.

* 'Real' Christian churches (yes, many are not) do preach faitfulness and commitment. They don't worry about 'pissing people off'. Their 'job' is to relay God's Word. The rest is between us and God.

David

Hi, Abend954.

If you think about it, aren't all of our morals 'selective'?

We all select the ones we follow, the ones we want people to think we follow, and the ones we want to yell about.

David

I'm not doubting what you say.. but re-read what i said.
there is a difference between raising children and being a good parent..
you can raise children and be a bad parent..

my point is, that you dont have to be gay to have an opinion on this.
just like you dont have to own a car to know how to drive one.. it was infered to me that since i wasnt gay my opinion wasnt valid.

"you can raise children and be a bad parent.."

Absolutely.

Dlaws (David) in response to your comments:

>> * Christianity is not limited to just those red words in the Bible.

I agree 100%

>> * God said that men sleeping together is 'detestable'. It doesn't seem so 'cryptic and debateable' to me...

Allow me to quote your earlier comment to stp:
"2. All the stuff you listed is 'life-style rules' from the Old Testament. These are rules that God imposed on a specific group of people at a specific time in history. That was all pre-Jesus. It doesn't apply to Christians - never has."
As you say, the Purity Laws were given to the Jews when they entered the promise land to ensure their seperation from the people and cultures that they would meet, including the one about man lying with man. There are several other things listed that are "detestible" that are generally agreed upon by the church as "not applying to Christians". Therefore I see that one directive about man lying with mankind as debateable.

>> * Cute story about David & Jonathan... ;^D
Personally, I thought it was romantic. I also find it difficult to believe that the church tries to insist that they were only "good friends". Jonathan professes his love for David more than once and king Saul refers to David as his son in law, not to mention other references to their relationship being other than "just friends".

>>* You forgot to mention Solomon's 700 wives and 300 concubines. These folks you mentioned are all Old Testament Hebrew folks. Whatever they did doesn't necessarily apply to Christians.

I know but I couldn't remember the exact numbers and I was having problems finding it. I hate to give wrong information.

>> * You're absolutely [right] about Christ's comments about marriage. I admit, it's not likely, but if you really give it some thought, perhaps you'll see your quotes as support for the 'sanctity of marriage'.

The sanctity of marriage, yes. The exclusivity of marriage, no. I don't see how Jesus's statements in any way exclude gay marriage. Again, that's an attempting to add to what is written by implication of what's is NOT said.

>> * 'Real' Christian churches (yes, many are not) do preach faitfulness and commitment. They don't worry about 'pissing people off'. Their 'job' is to relay God's Word. The rest is between us and God.

Yes and no. There are lines that most Christian churches won't cross... even "real" ones. You won't hear it said in any church that Jesus commanded that, if you get divorced, you are to remain single and celibate for the rest of your life.

Peter