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Massachusetts: MS Open XML Now in Equal Standing with ODF

By Scott M. Fulton, III, BetaNews

August 1, 2007, 9:36 PM

(continued from previous page)

Update ribbon (small)

The Massachusetts IT Division published many of the comments it received from the public – many from outside the state, some from outside the US – after its publication of the draft 4.0 specification last month. Letters supporting the state’s decision tended to float to the top of the list, though later items turned out to be overwhelmingly and vehemently opposed to the consideration of Microsoft in conjunction with anything claiming to be “open.”

In his comment, Lee Braiden referred to Massachusetts’ former CIO, Peter Quinn, who resigned two years ago amid controversy that erupted after he took a stand on behalf of the state on behalf of ODF and against OOXML. Quinn was the subject of an official review, as a result of accusations made in a Boston Globe article, though he was later cleared of all charges. Braiden wrote in part:

In short, Microsoft cannot be trusted to create and maintain a standard. They have shown themselves time and time again to represent the antithesis of standardization. Any standard - particularly a business document standard - must be managed by an independent body.

It was undoubtedly Peter Quinn's clarity on this issue - that checks and balances of the standard itself were needed to ensure a proper solution - that threatened Microsoft's (greatly undeserved) monopoly over document storage. Threatened as it should, I might add, as Microsoft's approach does not serve the public, as a public body's document storage should. Microsoft play hardball when an issue could lose them millions of dollars, and that is precisely why his job was jeopardized. Make no mistake about that.

Chris Clark, a member of a UK-based marketing agency, cited a blog post by Microsoft Office engineer Brian Jones, which addressed a number of alleged Excel 2007 bugs brought up by IBM performance architect Rob Weir – an outspoken critic of OOXML. Clark wrote in part:

Our second major concern seemingly confirmed by Microsoft is the scrambling of mathematical formula[e]...This will affect international shopping cart rules files if conversion between spreadsheets that cross OOXML conversion produce error numbers. This is hard enough to get right today, but the thought that mixes, volumes, and units might all get errored would create nightmare professional liabilities for my business, and administration risks to your State.

One e-mail was received that, either intentionally or through an omission of formatting codes (ironically) resulted in a single eight-page paragraph, often omitting punctuation and occasionally including spurious references to unrelated issues. Here’s a sample:

So if Macros are not included in Ecma 376, will developers who develop it independently get sued?― â€oeI will have to get back to you ...― To sumarize the licensing problems, the answers to the above questions for your future EOOXML compliant software can be provisionally given as: 1. Microsoft can stop any attempt to distribute your application 2. You need permission from Microsoft for every application of EOOXML on a computer [edit] (In-)Compatibility with other standards MS wants its own XML format to be an ISO standard. However, MS' format does not conform to many other ISO or W3C standards. You might even think MS doesn't like the W3C ;-): See eg, Wikipedia, OpenDocument Fellowship, Open Malaysia: MSOOXML's disregard for existing standards and, of course, Bob Sutor's blog. See also this GL discussion: Again from the newspick: a description of why ODF and OOXML don't interoperate. Office Open XML unquestionably duplicates or at least significantly overlaps with the ODF specification; moreover, unlike Office Open XML, OpenDocument incorporates still other standards such as XPath, XLinks, SVG, XForms, and MathML. Office Open XML reinvents the wheel at every turn rather than relying on existing open standards. The failure to implement XPath in Office Open XML is particularly problematic; it makes full fidelity in automated XSL transformations to and from other XML formats next to impossible.

This particular submission actually did not set the record for paragraph length; the ITD also published four copies of an identical letter, perhaps sent from the same e-mail server, also in opposition to OOXML, which was – with only slight exceptions – a single 12-page paragraph.

Donald Kulinski called to memory (albeit to a slightly defective unit of memory) the words of Henry David Thoreau in praising the State’s draft:

[I] recently received information about the microsoft system programs of xml format being used by the state gov't of mass. and the idea does increase the understanding of technology and the innovation of such products and programs to be given to the people of the u.s. to be used,, like the thoughts of waldon pond,,free thought cannot be denied and of the meaning and intent of the word ,,domain,,when used to benefit the ,"people", as a common goal.

Software developer Steve Worley contributed the following:

I am a professional software author, and have extensive real world experience in dealing with data, parsing, and formats. However, I asked myself if I were assigned a job to make my application read and use an OOXML file...I couldn't do it. The format specification, even if it's consistent and complete, is just far too large, complex, and filled with a staggering number of arcane details and exceptions to be able to deal with. It's like the US tax code, even a trained attorney could not understand all of it. A simpler, cleaner, design is easier to read, easier to write, easier to understand, and has a longer lifetime. If a format begins its life as difficult, arcane, and awkward, it will become even more so as it ages.

Francesco Fiore, a resident of Massachusetts, wrote the following in support of the draft:

As an international open standard of Ecma International, Open XML meets all state requirements as an open standard and therefore should be approved for use by government agencies. Use of the format will help enable citizens and state agencies to access electronic files well into the future. There is significant support for Open XML from all over the world as shown by the support on www.openxmlcommunity.org. The keys that these people highlight are interoperability (which in my opinion is always the most important) and standardization...Technology policies should enable government agencies to choose from technologies and products that meet their needs. Accepting the Open XML standard will enable wider choice, which will spur competition and innovation, which should be the ultimate goal of all democratic, market-driven societies.

Finally, Massachusetts resident Ryan Norbauer questioned whether the inclusion of converters in certain applications (Office 2003 comes to mind) truly qualifies as support for a format, regardless of whether the ISO adopts it as a global standard:

I am writing to urge the State to reject the plan to accept OOXML as an acceptable document format for our state government. Merely being "open" or simply having data encapsulated in XML is not synonymous with conforming to international standards. International standards bodies were created to make sure that information can be exchanged freely without any one party or interest having a controlling stake in the format itself. To accept a "standard" defined arbitrarily by one company is to reject the very notion of standards itself.

History has shown that the sale or release of "converters" is merely a dishonest way of placating organizations into accepting non-standard formats. They rarely work properly, but more importantly, the extra overhead means there are even less frequently actually used. If we are to commit to open standards, as we should, then not only is the addition of a corporate-defined standard unhelpful and a drain on productivity, I believe it actually does real harm to the open international standards themselves.

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By Scotch Moose

posted Aug 3, 2007 - 9:35 AM

For a long decade we have suffered because our document formats were
impenetrable and incompatible. We have real problems that need to be solved and all the talk is about standards, brands, licenses, and other things that are not people using documents.

We don't care about standards, use one or don't, what we want are results and this is what we expect.

We don't want backward compatibility or vendor incompatibility to be a problem anymore. Once we take the plunge and go to XML document formats I never want to see a message about what version of what software created a document again. I never want to hear about documents that don't look right on the other side. This is not astrology, it's text layout, and we can do it with accurate details.

We also want choice, not choice of document format, nobody wants to care about the file format. what we want is choice of software. Use a simple program, a power packed professional version, one in your native language, one that runs on your favorite operating system, or one that is licensed under GPL3. Every one of these should all read and write the same XML and never have a compatibility or an interoperability problem.

So I don't want to hear any more about committees with numbers in their names. I don't want to read file format specifications. I want my problems solved, resolved, archived, and forgotten.

So if your solution means never having a file format incompatibly problem again then lets do it, otherwise go back and try again.

Score: 0

By drumcat

posted Aug 2, 2007 - 1:09 PM

It's not open until FOSS can open it without errors.

Score: 0

By PC_Tool

posted Aug 2, 2007 - 2:13 PM

*laughs*

Right, because the FOSS community has no interest whatsoever in complaining about MS format incompatibility...

/sarcasm

Score: 0

By pitdingo

posted Aug 2, 2007 - 7:57 AM

Have to love the corrupt government at work. How people still vote for Republicans and Democrats is beyond me.

Score: 0

By zridling

posted Aug 2, 2007 - 1:35 AM

Wow, great summary report, Scott. Just hope the taxpayers of Massachusetts enjoy raising their taxes every other year to pay the Microsoft Tax just to read and access their own public data using a proprietary format. Thanks to one appointed person — not the residents of Massachusetts — they didn't get to vote on this tax increase. Wonder if Microsoft will give them the "China discount" of Vista/Office 2007 bundle for a mere $3?

[Cue toolie boy.]

Score: 0

By asellus

edited Aug 3, 2007 - 8:49 AM

Wow, proprietery format? What is this proprietery format you mentioned? Definitely not OOXML, as it is already an ECMA standard and in the process of becoming an ISO standard.

If you can definitely prove that OOXML does not follow ECMA standardization procedures and standards, I can hook you up with connections that will eventually revoke OOXML's ECMA certification. But just like many trolls out there who only speaks loudly without any action, I bet you will not be able to prove this.

Score: 0

By scorp508

edited Aug 2, 2007 - 8:40 PM

You have no idea what went on here to come to this decision.

The cost of implementing ODF would far surprass OOXML implementation given that the Commonwealth of Massachusetts already has an investment in hardware, software, and training for present-day MS Office formats. Everyone would need retraining of some kind, every document ever created would have to be converted to another format for archival purposes, external entities to the Commonwealth that do not use ODF would require hte Commonwealth to STILL keep around MS versions of every document. Its a big friggen mess and no not one person decided this. Get real if you really think that.

Even dumping MSFT wouldn't make things free. You still have to pay someone somewhere for support and software license fees.

Comments like yours make it blatently obvious you have never worked in an enterprise class environment where many factors must be considered due to the rippling effect one seemingly simple idea can have.

Score: 0

By pitdingo

posted Aug 3, 2007 - 7:57 AM

Do you work for M$? No IT person worth anything would ever want to be locked into a single vendors proprietary format. There is no competition.

A public agency should release electronic communication in a open standards based format. A single vendors tools should not be required.

M$ OOXML is a closed format. M$ owns it. M$ drives it. It is incompletely defined, and has many problems.

You have to start somewhere. You do not just convert all docs over. You start out by mandating new documentation use the open formats.

Initially it is going to be painful. Over time, huge financial savings will be realized, along with a healthier software eco-system as you will have competition.

Please stop with the "free" non-sense. Nothing is free. but an ODF standard would make things a whole lot closer to "free" than the status quo M$ proprietary garbage.

Score: 0

By scorp508

posted Aug 3, 2007 - 8:39 AM

Nope, not a Mirosoft employee (Wow, using M$ is so original). You ignored the part about external entities to the Commonwealth that do not use anything that supports these formats. If contractors, private companies, and the constituants of the Commonwealth itself cannot support these formats, why should the Commonwealth itself do so?

If you think huge financial savings will be realized, then you have some serious missing peices of the puzzel. Why don't you go and read the documents about what it would have cost MA to convert?

Another thing, the MA ITD department is not the authority in MA responsible for archival of state documents. This responsibility lies with the Secretary of the Commonwealth's office. It is their decision how things should be created and stored. MA ITD making a decision to change the standard document format would actually be outside of their authority and most likely prompt a lawsuit by the Attorney General's office. This should have never started with them in the first place.

Score: 0

By Metshrine

posted Aug 2, 2007 - 6:00 PM

Zaine, your comments are really starting to annoy me. Compared to what you post over at donationcoder.com, your remarks in the latest days have been nothing but anti-microsoft without any sort of justification.

Score: 0

By Niro

posted Aug 2, 2007 - 8:34 AM

Uh...you DO realize that it's OXML is an OPEN standard right? Or you just see MS and immediately decide it's time to try to bash no matter how uninformed you are?

Let me help you out because i know this article must be too hard for you to read in it's entirety:

"The Open XML format is currently supported by a variety of office applications including Microsoft Office 2007, OpenOffice Novell Edition, and NeoOffice 2.1. Corel has announced Open XML support for WordPerfect 2007. In addition, the Microsoft Office Compatibility Pack enables older versions of Microsoft Office such as Office 2003, XP and 2000, to translate documents to and from Open XML Format for text, presentation and spreadsheet documents."

Score: 0

By pitdingo

edited Aug 2, 2007 - 9:24 AM

It is amazing how many people have no idea what an open standard is. OOXML is _not_ an open standard. It is a format created and controlled by M$.

.doc is supported by other programs than M$ Office, so by your definition it is an "open standard" format.

The word "supported" does not mean 100% support. just as in the case of M$ OOXML. Unless you are M$ and running on M$ Windows, you _cannot_ make a 100% OOXML compliant Office application. Their specification is very clear on this.

Score: 0

By Hamma

posted Aug 2, 2007 - 12:26 PM

wow I wish I was so cool that Microsoft to me was M$

Get out of the 90's hacker l33t speak already.

Score: 0

By pitdingo

posted Aug 2, 2007 - 12:31 PM

$omebody i$ pi$$y!

Score: 0

By PC_Tool

posted Aug 2, 2007 - 12:37 PM

Somebody is mentally challenged.

Score: 0

By imafurby

edited Aug 2, 2007 - 3:08 PM

"pi$$y" is that Bill Gates when he's mad, or that Mexican telco guy? No wait, that would be in pe$o$.

Score: 0

By pitdingo

posted Aug 2, 2007 - 5:27 PM

lol

Score: 0

By Niro

edited Aug 2, 2007 - 11:39 AM

It's not an open standard? I guess someone should tell ECMA that...

Score: 0

By pitdingo

posted Aug 2, 2007 - 12:29 PM

Again, you lack understanding of the issue. You are getting caught up on the the fact that just because something is a standard, that does not mean it is "open".

OOXML is not an _open_ standard.

ECMA is a joke of a standards body. It has a history of rubber stamping anything vendors throw in front of it. Please do some research before you post.

Score: 0

By 4421

posted Aug 3, 2007 - 2:06 AM

No, ECMA formally prepares a standard. And ECMA standards don't have to be open standards. It is not a "joke" but a "service".

Score: 0

By PC_Tool

posted Aug 2, 2007 - 12:23 PM

According to the above esteemed MS tolls, ECMA is a joke. (Of course it is, their views don't conform to the anti-MS bias)

Score: 0

By pitdingo

posted Aug 2, 2007 - 12:30 PM

your delusions continue to amaze. If you have nothing to offer, why post at all?

Score: 0

By PC_Tool

edited Aug 2, 2007 - 12:36 PM

I'm sorry. Did you miss the point?

Let me explain:

From Pitdingo
ECMA is a joke of a standards body.

Now reread my post.

Get it?

Thanks for playing.

Score: 0

By pitdingo

posted Aug 2, 2007 - 2:15 PM

and your constructive comments are what exactly? You do nothing to address the point of the discussion. you do nothing to argue my points. You have nothing except the usual troll post.

Perhaps _you_ need to re-read the posts.

Score: 0

By PC_Tool

posted Aug 2, 2007 - 3:35 PM

My point was that either or the both of you, when faced with things like actual facts will almost always attempt to discredit (without using facts, mind you, we know you guys don't like those) the source.

...and you did just that.

The discussion revolves around the ECMA certified OOXML standard.

Prophesying your response to that statement was actually quite relevant, made even more so by your almost instant response exactly as I had predicted.

It was a simple exercise intended to expose you're utter lack of credibility regarding this issue. Thanks for your help. :)

Score: 0

By pitdingo

posted Aug 2, 2007 - 5:35 PM

gotta luv people that have no clue. Here let me spell it out for you PC_Troll

http://www.understanding...12/has_ecma_become.html
http://www.consortiuminf...story=20061221065155844
http://www.robweir.com/b...anger-than-fiction.html

I could list many more but i will leave it up to you PC_Troll, since you clearly are far wiser than anyone else on these boards.

Your total lack of credibility on these forums has been noted once again.

Score: 0

By Niro

posted Aug 2, 2007 - 9:07 PM

"Your total lack of credibility on these forums has been noted once again. "

I hate to break it to you...but I'm pretty sure Dave is the only person on these forums that has less credibility then you....you really are the last person that should be making a statement like that.

Don't let this get to your head PC...it's not that you're very credible...you're far above his level though. :)

Score: 0

By PC_Tool

posted Aug 3, 2007 - 8:19 AM

it's not that you're very credible...you're far above his level though. :)

Uhh....

Thanks? :p

Score: 0

By PC_Tool

edited Aug 2, 2007 - 8:23 PM

Link 1:

Author is a member of W3C and OASIS. Both of which have had issues with Microsoft in the past. No facts are stated, and, as a matter of interest, he makes claims several times he does not have any way of backing up.

subsequent versions of Office will end up using yet another version of the Office Open format

A significant proportion of the incompatibilities that occur on the web come about because Microsoft's "JScript"

Nothing but BS.

Link 2:

He derides ECMA solely because it's press releases in the last 6 months have focused heavily on Microsoft and OOXML. Hard to fault since it's probably the most pivotal, controversial, and talked about standard they've ever looked at.

link 3:

Takes *one* slide, out of context, and makes wild presumptions with no real data or information whatsoever.

Their issues with it?

Standards are made available "on time"?

Notice on time is in quotes? That's not my addition, it's in the slide. Synonymous with "as soon as possible", but not with "without regard for detail and honesty".

Minimize the "risk" of changes?

Damn straight. The last thing any standard needs, is to be changed after it's made a standard. Oh...did you think they meant "we'll accept it as is so you don't have to worry about anything."? I didn't see that line.

All in all, that's a pretty poor list of links there, pal. All opinions fueld by wild assumptions and no factual data. C'mon, you can do better than some lame-ass blog postings, can't you?

Your total lack of credibility on these forums has been noted once again.

Boy, you really *are* dreaming, aren't you?

Score: 0

By pitdingo

posted Aug 2, 2007 - 9:42 PM

make up whatever lies and distortions you want. You know and i know, you are wrong. Be a man and admit it.

But you can't.

ECMA is a joke. Anyone that knows anything about standards bodies knows it.

Score: 0

By PC_Tool

posted Aug 3, 2007 - 8:18 AM

*laughs*

Ah, insults and baseless accusations; The tried and true kneejerk response of those who can no longer argue the facts.

Score: 0

By asellus

edited Aug 3, 2007 - 6:52 AM

ECMA is not a joke. Anyone who knows anything about standard bodies know it.

Are you member of a country's ISO committee?

Score: 0

By 4421

posted Aug 3, 2007 - 2:26 AM

ISC and Zuck's ACT are a joke.

Score: 0

By Niro

posted Aug 2, 2007 - 4:06 PM

It's pointless PC...he still thinks MS is still a monopoly.

This is the same guy that bashed MS for actually providing an option of downloading HD movies...it confused him, because HD movies are available on HD DVD...so he wasn't sure why MS is trying to make matters more confusing and giving consumers the option of downloading them...how do you reason with a guy like that?

Score: 0

By pitdingo

posted Aug 2, 2007 - 9:45 PM

"Judge Jackson issued his findings of fact on November 5, 1999, which stated that Microsoft's dominance of the personal computer operating systems market constituted a monopoly..."

http://en.wikipedia.org/...ted_States_v._Microsoft

Score: 0

By Niro

edited Aug 2, 2007 - 11:16 PM

uh...Pit...I know this is going to be difficult for you...I'm so sorry to be the one to inform you, that, it is...the year 2007 now.

You may need to seek professional help to see if you can remember what happened with your life in the past 8 years...but, please do so ASAP. The longer you wait, the harder it will be to bring back those memories.

Also...just for the fun of it...from your link:

"The D.C. Circuit Court of Appeals unanimously overturned Judge Jackson's rulings against Microsoft on browser tying and attempted monopolization on grounds that he gave embargoed interviews to the news media while he was still hearing the case, in violation of the Code of Conduct for US Judges [11]. Judge Jackson did not attend the D.C. Circuit Court of Appeals hearing, in which Jackson was repeatedly and vehemently denounced by the appeals court judges, who accused Jackson of unethical conduct and determined he should have recused himself from the case"

Score: 0

By PC_Tool

posted Aug 2, 2007 - 4:35 PM

Heh..

I suppose. Perhaps I should try something a bit more on his level?

"Hay, pitdingo, Im in ur forum, ninjaing ur st00pid"?

*laughs*

Ya know, that might actually work...

Score: 0