In all the debate over how awful Microsoft Windows is about forcing its software upon users, why isn't Apple's Macintosh OS catching a little flack? As far as I can see, they're in the same boat as Microsoft. Just a thought.

Hehe, this is so dumb, comment suited to american listeners:

It would be like swift telecom only accepting calls from other swift subscribers, bell calls would not be accepted.

Crazy!

:-)
Done since many months.

Maybe if people weren't forced into using messenger as it is crammed into Windows XP, people would have a choice. Most people don't know how to use Messenger progs, so they use what's already there. Like the IE problem, people should know their options. I've never liked the MSN Messenger and I used to use ICQ before their takeover, but as most people use AOL, I've stuck with the AIM client. Tons more features available anyway. I was proud of Microsoft when they forced on their MSN Mess to work with AIM. Security is not a concern. People know that their instant messenging isn't secure and neither are American telephone lines. All clients are free so these conglomerates should work together to do a little standard by the way of Instant Messenging. The internet is free and should remain that way.

There is a standard way of working with multiple instant messenger platforms. It is called Jabber! Plus, the standards are properly regulated.

see http://www.jabber.org

msn sucks .

And you don't even know how to make it............... jerk

Whether you like Trillian or not is for another topic.

Basically MSN will be changing their login procedures so that old versions of MSN Messenger will be unable to login to MSN. This will also apply to Trillian 0.74 and Trillian 1.0 and any other messegers that rely on the current method of connecting to MSN. Trillian 2.0 probably fixes some bug issues with Trillian 1.0, but it will also comply with the new MSN login procedures whereas Trillian 1.0 won't.

I'm sure this is a genuine security change which they've delayed implementing until MSN 6 Messenger was released. But they're smart guys and they know it's the perfect oppurtunity to coin in the kerching ching from companies like Cerulean Studios.

I just got a copy of the trillian 2.0 pro public beta 3 and it works fine now with msn. Either cerulean studios already upgraded to let trillian work with the new msn connection, or the crack from tsrh did the job... but i'm guessing trillian is already upgraded :) get it while it still works!

i'm a big trillian fan and i don't like to see this fight make me a victim. the more microsoft pushes on its deskop 'only microsoft' the more the competitive advantage and the violation of that comes into light. MS tests the borders of what's allowed today and will see if it has to pay for it tomorrow. then it buys off any mistake. that's aggressive. correct, but acceptible ? no. we all want a free choice of products. not putting the msn IM on the desktop will make people start to think more about making a choice. the linux community will also grow. BTW i personally chose an IM program also for what it looks like, and all i want is a simple text screen, just to type what i have to say.

Microsoft will be charging for a license to connect the their IM network.... as it stands now, companies like Trillian are making money off of Microsoft's free network (quite a bit of money, actually).

BTW, Trillian, in my opinion, is one of the worst apps I've ever used, with a horribly inconsistant UI, features that don't turn off, an uninstaller that doesn't uninstall, settings that won't change, etc...

I have to agree with you there, though I saw one of my buddies using trillian pro and it looked lightyears better. I like GAIM for Windows, much better IMHO even if it is missing a few features.

I agree. Microsoft should stop forcing their software onto people. As long as people think MSN Messenger works better (or is the only messenger software for that matter) with their Windows XP or server or what have you, they will continue to support it.

Trillain Pro 2.0 uses the updated protocol and is and will be working fine with MSN Messanger 6.0.
Microsoft has never kicked off third party users, unlike stupid AOL (blocking Trillian users...but got defeated)

Okay who wants to start the betting on which 3rd party is the first to crack the new software, and who is the first person to find a buffer overflow in the new software? Any takers?

Limitation is never the key to success. If they want to limit their users, they are free to do so and we are free to refuse to be limited.

I personally love Trillian and am happy to hear MSN messanger will not be a part of it. I will encourage all my friends using MSN to move to ICQ, Yahoo!, IRC or AOL to avoid being limited.

Cheers!

I can't express how disgusting this microsoft people are! i can't really express how disapponited i am. i don't think i'll use MSN if i have to do it through the microsoft messenger, i think you should all boycott MSN's messenger.

If you use MS Messenger, then I'm not sure of why you'd be so against it. If you don't use Messenger and use another app like GAIM, then you have already been boycotting so what's the difference.

off course I'm using trillian, i can't see why you are supporting Microsoft in this stupi action. why the hell should i be obliged to use their product? and don't tell me because i'm using their network because they copied the whole messenger idea from ICQ, and I think everybody knows that. like they copied DOS, the icon and mouse interface, etc, etc.

oh right, so who made PC-DOS then? sure as hell it wasn't IBM!

I'm supporting their rights. I think they have a right to protect their network from hackers and programs that use their resources without giving them any compensation for it.

Look at it this way:
If Trillian came up with some great network and then Microsoft came in and creates a software that merely hacks into it and uses their user base without giving any compensation to Trillian. Would you:
a) be upset at Trillian if they began to block Microsoft and would you begin to boycott Trillian.
b) give Microsoft a hand for offering an alternative to Trillians network despite Trillian not wanting them there.
c) it doesn't matter what the question is. I hate Microsoft because that's the cool thing to do.

As far as copying ICQs network there were already several other instant messenger programs out there. That's like saying if some company creates a First Person Shooter game, then they are copiers. As for DOS, Bill Gates bought it fair and square. As for icons, that's the obvious way that the computer industry was moving. Last time I checked Red Hat and every other gui OS had icons as well. I guess they are all evil.

Imagine that you invented the toaster. You think, "Hey, cool! Now I don't have to eat my bagels all cold and hard anymore!" So you go off and make toasters, and in a few months, all the major electronics stores are mass-producing and developing toasters like crazy, improving this "toaster" concept in radically new and drastically different ways. Then, the two-slot toaster is created. Behold: a product's efficiency has been doubled. Would this kind of thing have been possible if no-one except you had made toasters? Let's say Chris Hill (of ubergeek.tv fame) makes his Intellitoast animation. Do you sue?

This is the central discord in the argument about Windows "stealing stuff".

BTW, for Chris' Intellitoast cartoon, go to http://www.ubergeek.tv/intellitoast/.

This is just yet another (of the many) methods Microsoft uses to have a monopoly on the market. Just like the whole .net crap is.

I am tired of people always calling Microsoft a Monopoly. Microsoft has gained it's success due to a good business strategy, and in doing so have given themselves a competitive advantage over other companies. There is a difference between a monopoly and a competitive advantage.

I have to agree. I've worked for them and seeing how things work internally I have completely changed my views for what the company does and what the media 'shows' they do.

Microsoft has just been a company that gave drive to what was once considered too risky of a business. It said there needed to be a way for everyone to enjoy technology. They did it. Now people are jealous of that success. Simply said.

Sure, there is a difference between a "monopoly" and a "competitive advantage", but Microsoft has both. If you need help digging your head out of the sand, I'm here for you.

"ORDERED, ADJUDGED, and DECLARED, that Microsoft has violated §§ 1 and 2 of the Sherman Act, 15 U.S.C. §§ 1, 2, as well as the following state law provisions: Cal Bus. & Prof. Code §§ 16720, 16726, 17200; Conn. Gen. Stat. §§ 35-26, 35-27, 35-29; D.C. Code §§ 28-4502, 28-4503; Fla. Stat. chs. 501.204(1), 542.18, 542.19; 740 Ill. Comp. Stat. ch. 10/3; Iowa Code §§ 553.4, 553.5; Kan. Stat. §§ 50-101 et seq.; Ky. Rev. Stat. §§ 367.170, 367.175; La. Rev. Stat. §§ 51:122, 51:123, 51:1405; Md. Com. Law II Code Ann. § 11-204; Mass. Gen. Laws ch. 93A, § 2; Mich. Comp. Laws §§ 445.772, 445.773; Minn. Stat. § 325D.52; N.M. Stat. §§ 57-1-1, 57-1-2; N.Y. Gen. Bus. Law § 340; N.C. Gen. Stat. §§ 75-1.1, 75-2.1; Ohio Rev. Code §§ 1331.01, 1331.02; Utah Code § 76-10-914; W.Va. Code §§ 47-18-3, 47-18-4; Wis. Stat. § 133.03(1)-(2); and it is"

- http://www.usdoj.gov/atr/cases/f4400/4469.htm

Feel free to peruse the trial documents yourself.

http://www.usdoj.gov/atr/cases/ms_index.htm

It just goes to show how easily swayed you are in that now you have had a direct affiliation with them, they are angels.

Sure, they brought technology to the masses. But they were not the only ones. They had partnerships with Apple and IBM...M$ turned their back on them. They have ripped off so many ideas from other companies...but only loosely enough that they could not be sued. Everything else they have bought or developed themselves in a sub-standard manner.

They use their flagship product (Their OS branch) to force things upon you (IE, MSN and MSIM) to make it more "convenient" all the while removing your ability to CHOOSE. Ever try uninstalling Internet Explorer in the last few years? Ain't happening.

They had a competitive edge, they knew it and they took advantage of that competitive edge to cripple other companies (ie. Netscape) or stop them in their tracks and then use the innovation and call it their own. Hell, they even went so far as to back SCO, which after showing the supposed stolen code, turned out to be from circa 1973...a period of time which SCO had no claim to the source nor were any of the laws back then anywhere near what they are now for intellectual property.

M$ has abused its position pure and simple. They were called on it, and because you saw what the PEOPLE were like, you lost sight of what the company as an entity was like.

I think Microsoft has a valid argument, i wouldnt want somone parked outside my house piggybacking on my wireless network... would you? Sure in concept making a single app to run a multitude of different tasks is a good idea but you have to respect the fact that microsoft provides their network for free for a specific title that they have published, and the fact that windows messenger is bundled with windows doesnt sell copies of the OS, I think you should all stop your complaining and use whichever messenger you like the best. Also MSN messenger 6.0 is one of the most seamless IM programs out there, very easy to use and learn, colourfull and fun. I was an ICQ user for many a year, acctually the first year it was availabe, thought it was the best thing since sliced bread, but it was clunky and had annoying sound effects. once MSN messenger came out i totally went off ICQ. MSN was more streamlined and looked a whoal lot better with commonly used features within easy reach. i recently tried Trillian, wow what a mess. very un impressed with its annoying layout, menus features, and overall ease of use. couldnt even figure out how to show my ICQ contact list. definatly needs work from the ground up. Also was very ugly. My point is that microsoft has an outstanding product that is free and is fast and easy to use and other people trying to cash in on somones good will should be shut down, nuff said

Not true. I still have the choice. Big deal, I can't uninstall IE. Don't want to. And I use Mozilla currently as well. That is my choice. I'm not so life-consumed by such small things. Still use WinAMP (v2.8) too and not WMP because its smaller and more efficient for what I want as an MP3 player.

I also use my own choice of FTP program and other individual chat clients as I prefer them for connecting to their chat networks rather than allowing JVM-based clients from IE to connect. If people didn't want a 'monopoly' on the market they should have thought about that before widely accepting Windows. We had a choice back then and it seems everyone made it and is now changing their mind. Great. Take action, install a new OS, and move on with it.

There are two sides to Microsoft. The innovators (R&D) and the bank and lawyers (M$). They are not one and the same.

Microsoft have revolutionised the way people think of computers... the way they use them. They brought cheap computing to the masses. They deserve a bit of credit.

.NET is a remarkable platform... building heavily on Java's faults. It is TRULY the platform of tomorrow. And from what I have seen they are willing to roll out an ORDERED pathway to open-source. This does not mean free-source with which GNU has become synonymous.

Just as the above article says, they are willing to licence the .NET Messenger service. This can only be good for consumers in terms of better security and better features. With SOAP we can take advantage of passports in end-user code - without compromising in any way a user's right to privacy and security.

The only thing we need to press Microsoft for is transparency of standards and a central governing body (headed by Microsoft with delegates from others inc. IBM, et al - this already exists for .NET - IETF).

Quit the conspiracy theories and move on into the future. Pay the money for the software (whether from Microsoft or third-parties) and you'll see more roads opening to you.

must be right then.

IT departments desperate to see microsoft on every desktop must mean that microsoft are forcing windows down their throats.

clear cut case.

didn't have anything to do with consumers though did it. just those corporations who in their last efforts to maintain their foothold on the world in favour of proprietary software (e.g. sun jre) decided to attack the problem at the source - great software at great prices - user friendly too!

why did those trials take so long... they should have been over in a few days!

what's that? wouldn't have happened if the fsf's were in power?

weren't they?

do you believe in aliens?

thinking elvis? thinking jfk? etc...

will this effect your connection in Linux if you Dialup into MSN access

like I use SuSE 8.2 with my MSN 8 connection

I use Kinternet program to dialup because no msn 8 avable for linux
just use MSN/Username and password and get the MSN phonenumber from Windows and put it in the Linux Dialup program , use the linux activate firewall and Stupid Mode and DNS Modify settings in Linux

I would use a MSN 8 connection & Messager program if they made one for linux but they don't so I have to use SuSE 8.2 Kinternet program , KPPP program is not really useable without changing permission thing in the newest linux.

I use to use Windows XP but theVirus Scanning program and its Firewall broke the Net connection in windows. Windows firewall are getting really bad for 56 Modem users, I seems like they are really breaking dialup connections now& plus another reason to use Linux is its less likely to get a Virus like the ones that are getting after Microsoft and Email etc.., anyway
Will the MSN Messager upgrade thing break the linux net connection , I think I should be able to use MSN in Linux if I want Internet under Linux, its not right that they don't provide a MSN 8 for Linux app.

I got my Lucent Modem online in linux by compiling drivers for it , which you can find under the hardware sction at www.mandrakelinux.com under lucent for modem brand thing

The 56 modem works better in Linux for downloads & net access then it ever did in windows
I am just a home user that Use SuSE 8.2 Pro and knows how to compile linux programs, and yes I still boot windows for my capure card capturing thing for WMV 9 VHS video and DivX 5 which both are still lacking in Linux but Linux has become better for net acces than windows , your won't get one of those Viruses in Linux and even if you did download a windows virus its not going break your computer in linux because it can not get the root user and as a normal User in Linux your more safe accessing the net than windows could ever be!Really

I don't see an issue here, perhaps it is the harsh way Microsoft express their point. Yes they have a right to control how one connects, they do own the application. If they would have said "We will allow no third party apps to connect to our network" that would have been different. Unlike AOL they stated that a partnership program is available. It is their right to do so. This may be a first for me defending Gates empire but the fact remains they own the right to control their property, if anything their choice of words and the way the message was delivered was what pissed people off. But I have come to expect that from Redmond.As far as consumer's being forced to upgrade to the latest version again every app MS releases has a life span from OS's onm down. At some point the support will end. Like or not it again is their right to do with their property as they deem fit.

It's stupid things like this that moved me to open source. I use Gaim and from what I hear they are going to try to support the new protocol but if not... Kudos.... last service I use related to Microsoft is MSN through Gaim and if I lose that I guess I am 100% free from the totalitarian grasp of Bill Gates :P :P :P Once again strike one up for Linux and BSD.... and please no slamming because of SCO... anyone with any brains at all knows that they have no chance so please keep it to yourselves :P

"please no slamming because of SCO... anyone with any brains at all knows that they have no chance so please keep it to yourselves"

Are you kidding ? This is going to be like the the Recording Industry anti-piracy persecutions. You'll be sitting at your computer some night using Open Source, your door will suddenly come tumbling down, and in shall rush a whole team of black-uniformed and masked S.W.A.T. firing their machine guns wildly in the air and setting off stun grenades everywhere !

THEN you'll know you should've used Microsoft products.

No, then you will know that you should have moved to Russia where you would have had freedom.

America, land of debt and bad laws.

:-(

"America, land of debt and bad laws"

What are you talking ? If you use Linux, you ~deserve~ SCO sending S.W.A.T. to your house. This ain't the Soviet Union where the proletariat just confiscates what it wants in the name of "The People". That's why Communism didn't work: People used unlicensed code.

If you think Open Source is cool, move to North Korea or Cuba ! They don't have private property in either of those countries ...but neither do they have anything to eat in those countries.

Just remember: You can't have stolen SCO code for lunch ! America will always be great because we got Microsoft ~and~ lunch.

The DataRat

Geez, then I guess it's ok to say that if you use Windows then you deserve to have all of your documents mailed to everyone in your addressbook. You deserve to have your bios nuked, and you deserve to have your computer used as a pawn in a large scale attack.

Wait, I'm not an idiot and I don't think like you do. There's no stolen code in Linux, you are more than welcome to make any attempt you'd like to prove that there is. LOL

"There's no stolen code in Linux, you are more than welcome to make any attempt you'd like to prove that there is."

Don't have to. SCO is.

Your's being the typical attitude of Open Source people using UNLICENSED CODE just before the tactical team surrounds their house and orders them over a loudspeaker to come out with their hands above their head !

"LOL", huh ? You won't be laughing at ~all~ when you're serving a long prison sentence next to some sweaty teenage song swapper in a federal penitentiary. Laughing out loud there will get you six months in solitary confinement, bub.

Just like every user of UNLICENSED CODE, you never think you'll get caught ...until you get caught !

Yet it's never too late to repent of a life of crime. Bro. Rat is begging you: Send SCO several thousand dollars, destroy your copy of Linux, and install Microsoft Windows. You'll never regret becoming an honest computer user. And, no more looking over your shoulder to see whether SCO Agents are tailing you.

Think about it.

The DataRat

Remember: "Using UNLICENSED CODE
~Never~ Pays !"

K, I fell for it once. You got me. People say hello to the new "Mike Cox". lol

Yeah.. BSD is the way to go. There used to be a bit more of a choice before but, really, it's the most standardized platform especially whereas the supporting community (peer support ownz expensive pay-per-call support that you may seel elsewhere) and documentation is concerned. Too bad it's still not a good option for the majority of the world that does not want to worry about tarballing, writing drivers, getting their favorite apps to work using emulators and such, memorizing vi/joe commands, carefully editing conf files, managing hdz and directory structures properly, etc. etc.

NIX is still the world of the technically-elite and, for those that want the stability without the headache, they still need to tinker a bit to enjoy X and, let's face it, it's not as simple as shooting monkies in a barrel.. unless you're a tech geek.

/me hides geek badge

Personally, I think OS/2 Warp is the best platform out there... or maybe WFW3.11 w/ QEMM and CleanSweep! =oP~~

Gaim and other apps like it are nice, however, they are not officially licienced 3rd party tools. Microsoft and AOL are spending big bucks for the servers,etc that handle the authentication/group lists, ect. while these 3rd party programs just hack into their network and give essentially no recognition and provide no financial backing to those companies.

If you don't like Microsoft or AOL fine. But use an app that has it's own network. Not an app that hacks into other companies' networks.

Essentially you are upset that Microsoft is not letting hackers hack them.

Ignorance is bliss. I wish I could go bouncing through life with no cares and absolutely no clue. It must be nice.

"I wish I could go bouncing through life with no cares"

You could if you'd just switch to Microsoft products stop
using UNLICENSED CODE.

It would change your life, bub. Your whole Teenage Rebellion
thing has got to be getting boring. Imagine life as an honest
computer-user.

The DataRat

Typical, somebody actually belives SCO owns that code... And why do you belive that? Because they want 3 billion and the headlines told you so? c'mon puhleazzz!!

I'm not gonna explain this to you.. You're gonna have to read you to correct facts like everybody else!
Any ignorant moron can read the headlines on the tabloids, the others read the rest.

If you are interested in the WHOLE SCO vs IBM story, read the analysis by Bruce Perens. And follow ALL the links.

http://perens.com/Articles/SCO/SCOSlideShow.html

That is the best fully explaining link. But this easy obtained info is all over internet, from many different people.

So please. Stop reading headlines, and aquire the facts before you post here as if you knew something.

/The Saint

This guy is just a troll, he probably makes $.50 a post. ;-)

Despite the fact that you are obviously a troll, I'll play along. I'm bored.

"You could if you'd just switch to Microsoft products stop
using UNLICENSED CODE."

Did you just admit that using Microsoft products solidifies that comment about being ignorat? You are obviously, naive, uneducated, gullible, incredibly dense, and a total sucker. Consumers such as you are the reason for companies such as SCO (and Microsoft). I'm ever amazed at how people in this country convict people on the basis of an accusation. Anybody can sue anyone for anything. Just because they make a claim does not mean it's valid. People do, in fact, lie. Unfortunate, but it happens. That's free advice for you.

"Your whole Teenage Rebellion thing has got to be getting boring."

Well, considering I've already passed high school reunions, this is pretty much impossible. Maybe I'll work on a mid-life rebellion for you. You couldn't pay me enough to be a teenager again.

"Imagine life as an honest computer-user."

Imagine life with self-respect and a clue. :-)

He's overpaid. :)

You guys are like Napster ...proclaimimg victory up to the second the courts shut you down !

As for the "troll" thing: ~You~ are the tiny minority. The angry teenagers rebelling against authority.

Open Source doesn't even have as much desktop presence as Apple. And, Apple has less than a 3% market share !

It's a Microsoft Windows World (95% market share). Open Source is a passing fad. In a few years, you'll rank along side the Amiga hobby clubs.

The DataRat

HAHA....guys like you make me laugh. Go get laid or something man. Then you won't be so damn concerned over what other geeks do.

BTW:

"Business Week columnist Alex Salkever dropped the bomb last week that next year, 'Linux should pass Apple in market share for desktop operating systems on computers.' "

that was from http://slate.msn.com/id/2084727/

And as far as being less than 3%...fine. I kind of enjoy being a Linux user. It gives me a sense of pride knowing that I am not a mindless idiot who goes along with everything some uber-rich guy says is good for me...and his wallet. Not saying anyone who uses Windows is an idiot...hell, I still use Windows daily (at work, dual boot, and other machines in the home), but I decided to excercise CHOICE because I had an OPTION.

And you want to talk about Communist Russia or Cuba? Idiot.

"Linux should pass Apple in market share for desktop operating systems on computers"

Yeah, yeah. And, there'll be World Peace next year !

You folks are SO naive.

Linux has been claiming OS DOMINATION -just around the
corner- for the past five years !

Give it up. Linux is technologically bankrupt. It's the
'Latter Day OS/2'.

The DataRat

Too bad fewt isn't here. I can just imagine the fireworks! :)

When did anyone ever say dominance? Let alone it being around the corner? I would like to see any publication that has claimed that.

uhh yeah Fewt and I are the same guy.. lol

This guy's just been enjoying the "doobience".

heh heh

"When did anyone ever say dominance? Let alone it being around the corner?"

Yup.

Bro. Rat has been reading Linux groupies for the last five years claiming that they were on the very verge of overtaking Microsoft Windows.

It may be a sign of a creeping return to reality that you folks are now targeting Apple (3% market share) instead of Microsoft (95% market share).

But, here's a News Flash: Open Source ~ain't~ got a chance of overcoming even Apple's pathetic market niche !

Nevertheless, that you've lowered your sights to Apple from Microsoft does seem to indicate you've been regularly taking your meds.

The DataRat

You make no sense, Rat. It's obvious you haven't even read the available info on the SCO vs IBM story...

And now you trying to tell us that you (a linux hating teenager) have been reading Linux forum for the past 5 years?!?!

It's obvious you're not able to see the many positive sides of Linux. I don't know if you're ignorant or just plain stupid.
If you really have been reading/posting on a linux forum, it's probably because you don't understand how to use Linux. And in despair when trying to mount the CD-rom for the first time you post on a Linux forum and everybody treats you like a noob.. Now you're angry, your ego has been hurt... You're saying: -"Linux users are criminal/dishonest/bla bla", "Hate them, throw them into jail".

Oh, poor little Rat, go gnaw somewhere else.

/The Saint

a linux hating teenager

or a linux hating preteen?

I personally think someone just stole his pocket protector or his autographed microsoft photo again.

So when are you next convening in the parish of FSF?

on the desktop... windows is queen.

it marries well with the king of servers though... RedHat 9.

Take a look at go-mono for an exciting development on Linux.

i don't use third-party software for msn service, so i don't really have to worry too much...

Me too :)...just makes things easier. Use their network, use their program. Its a matter of respecting and supporting those that offer the free service.

no, it is called capitulation.

How long has the industry been calling for a standard IM protocol?

Read the article

As far as I know, Jabber transports aren't affected. Maybe this is a good time to switch to the open Jabber IM system?

www.jabber.org

You can find clients here http://www.jabber.org/user/clientlist.php

Great point! There are many other multi-network clients out there besides Trillian and Odigo. I mentioned Odigo due to its publicized fight with AOL in the past, but you are right - there are bigger and better clients out there these days. Miranda IM (used to be Miranda ICQ) is making huge strides and is open source.

If they can make the newer clients connect like they're supposed to. I upgraded my M$N to first the 6 beta, and then the 6 final. Beta ran perfect, but the final won't connect. It only works when I uninstall/reinstall, then doesn't work after reboot. Another fine Micro$oft product.

Have a good day,
Doctor Caligari

"If Ford operated like Microsoft, they would hand you the seatbelts two months after you bought a car and expect you to install them yourself" -- Tony Smith, talking about Windows Update

Then why don't you send this bug to Microsoft with your OS information? They'll be more than happy to fix it.

I've found that they go out of their way to help people when the really shouldn't.

It's extremely hard to notify M$ of problems when their little bug notification crashes when you try to use it.

In regard to this, I tried it five times. Had to reboot five times. And before you ask: Yes, I've applied all their patches.

Have a nice day,
Doctor Caligari

What bug notification are you referring to that crashes when you try to use it? Could you give me a link? What message do you receive when you have your crash? Could the crash possibly be related to some other software you are running? Could it be related to a hardware conflict? MSN Messenger 6.0 runs without flaw on all of my friends and relatives computers that use it. It solved quite a few problems that people were experiencing with NAT and UPnP issues with earlier versions. Messenger 6 is running on hundreds of thousands of computers. I think that with some basic troubleshooting you should be able to run it successfully on yours. "PC" is a pretty diverse platform and personally I'm amazed that ANYONE can write a piece of software that can run on so many different combinations of hardware and software. I've NEVER owned a computer with hardware that was plain jane enough to get Linux to install, yet Windows runs well on all the computers I've owned in the last decade.

linux has a steep learning curve

Yes, but the payoff is well worth it.

It's not the learning curve, it's having to use dumbed down or older hardware because Linux doesn't ever seem to have drivers to support what I'm using.

...or is Microsoft using the term .NET for two different things. I was under the impression that .NET "enables the creation and use of XML-based applications, processes, and Web sites as services that share and combine information and functionality with each other by design, on any platform or smart device, to provide tailored solutions for organizations and individual people."(http://www.microsoft.com/net/basics/faq.asp)

Since MS is encouraging third-party developers to 'contact them and work out an agreement', this .NET sounds more like an actual net; snaring third-parties outside the MS sphere.

.NET is the label Microsoft was using for its Internet-related services, but it's also a Framework like you say. Due to the confusion, Microsoft dropped .NET from most product names, keeping it only in the development space.

But because Microsoft now has Windows Messenger and MSN Messenger, which are the same thing, the company is using ".NET Messenger" to classify both.

FYI, WM and MSNM are not the same thing--this is especially true with WM5 and MSNM6. Both of these two MS products can act as a client to the ".NET Messenger" service, but neither of them should not be referred to as ".NET Messenger".

Same with regards to connecting to the same network. Of course, they are separate clients and have different abilities - but to avoid confusion, Microsoft classifies them both as .NET Messenger clients. That makes sense to me.

Here is another simple explanation with other links reference that MS removed the naming convention of .NET though the company still carries on with the original intent of the .NET concept...

http://www.vanishingclouds.com/DotNET.htm

Android #2243

Think passports. Think how these will aid authentication. That's what the .NET Messenger service is all about, and that's why we should be pushing for transparency of standards... not messaging.

Trillian pro 2 is allready ready, and Miranda is ready with the new update. I didnt even know Odigo was still around and who knows about them. Anyways, as long as the client supports v7 or better of the msn protocol its fine.

I don't mind, they'll just lose me whenever Trillian can't connect.

If I want to upgrade my software, I will. I am SO tired of MS telling me that I have to upgrade something. Not once has any forced upgrade benefitted the consumer in any way. I'm waiting for some Microsoft spokeperson to come out with the usual garbage about how they listened to their customers and the customer "wants" forced upgrades.

So new features and enhanced security do not benefit the consumer, now that Microsoft is doing it?

So basically, according to you, whatever Microsoft does is wrong.

"So basically, according to you, whatever Microsoft does is wrong."

Hmmm...that's an interesting, if not totally accurate, translation of my words. I thank you for your effort at clarifying, but I'll stick with my original statement.

Don't cry about it, and just install the new version.

You missed his point. What if you bought a brand new car. A month later you get a letter. GM figured there was a problem with the cupholder...it would occassionally spill your drink. But you never used that cup holder because you either found another solution or never used that cupholder in the firstplace. To fix the problem though, they totally redesigned the dash. A dash you do not like. But they said, if you don't bring it in, we will void your warranty. Essentially FORCING you to UPGRADE. Something you do not like...but ultimately might benefit some owners.

Do you get what I am saying? CPUGuy...you have been Microsofts b**ch for so long it is laughable. I know you are a smart guy, I have seen many of your posts. Why do you so blindly go along with everything M$ says?

Your cupholder analogy doesn't hold water. Microsoft is upgrading their FREE messenger client to improve security. They want to protect the software from future security issues. If you don't want to use it you don't have to. Seems you are the type that would fault Microsoft for a lack of security, and now you fault them for increasing security. You are one of those "everything Microsoft is bad" people.

One more thing... You aren't replacing the dash on your car, you are downloading an executing a file that takes onl a minute or two on a broadband connection. You act like you've been asked to do some sort of humongous and tedious chore. It took you longer to read these threads and post your reply than it will take to upgrade your MSN Messenger software.

ah...it totally holds water, as there should have been no reason for a fix in the first place. get it straight or don't release it. Simple as that. Windows2000 shipped with over 30,000 KNOWN bugs; still shipped though. So then you must wait for service pack after service pack....and then 4 years after release worry about an overlooked RPC hole. Get it right.

I do not fault M$ for wanting to upgrade their security. Thing is, why force it on someone? If they are happy with what they have, fine. I know people who refuse to run anti-virus software because they have never had a virus. Should they be forced to install an AV? No. Why? It is their computer, their choice, their risk. And ultimatelay, M$ can be faulted for security risks within its operating systems. Patching them AFTER they are exploited is a sign of a bad testing, R&D and development process...relying on 18 year olds to do the jobs of some very wealthy M$ coders is a load of BS.

Well I guess if they had got it straight from the beginning no third party clients would have been able to connect with it. They've added all kinds of new features that I use on a daily basis that most of the third party clients don't have like video and voice. Best of all, nearly all of my close friends and relatives use it so it is actually USEFUL to me which is more than I can say for AIM, YAHOO and the other non-affiliated clients.

DSL?

Completely different when you're talking about network communication. If for instance, your friend on MSN messenger likes to upgrade their software in tune with Microsoft... using Microsoft's service. Then they would expect the level of security promised to them. If you come along with a non-authorised client which is a bit dodgy (say a modified open source one like GAIM) and decides to do something stupid to your friend while you're chatting to them (like send them messages asking them to look at some porn site) like I've seen many viri do... then Microsoft are up whatdoyamacallit creek because your friend has just been sent an unsolicited message through their service.

If however you want to stay without those critical service packs, virus definitions, spyware definitions et al. then be our guest... just don't expect anyone to look at your piccies.

Think beyond your own world.

Don't forget the handy local links to Tesco, Lastminute, UKOnline (uk government) etc. Also don't forget the very handy news/reminder alerts (which aren't tied to one computer) and MSN money.

Then of course factor in the Zone and MSN Music (never need Kazaa again - streams music at 1p a track).

Will those that blasted AOL blast Microsoft for doing the very same thing?

(doubtful)

I do like Microsoft, but I think all three major IM companies are acting like children. If all three messengers could talk to each other, the battle then would be who builds the best client? Microsoft and Yahoo seem to put a lot of work into their free clients, whereas AOL seems to treat it as an afterthought (not to say it dosen't have a lot of good features, it's just that they concentrate on AOL more).

I would, but in conjunction with a good reason (security) Microsoft states its willingness to collaborate with these other IM client developers. If the agreement they must follow competitively prevents these other developers from using the MSN protocol, then I will get angry.

When AOL shut out MSN Messenger, Trillian, etc. it did so without notice, and didn't offer any means to regain access to the AIM protocol. These companies had to do it on their own, and hopefully the same won't happen with MSN's protocol.

To my understanding, AOL Time Warner was not allowed to incorporate advanced capabilities in its IM products because Microsoft, Yahoo and such said that AOL would dominate the market too much.

Also, with this ban. If Trillian can't connect, I will be heartbroken, I hate the MSN client. But, most of the people I know are too stupid to download ICQ or anything like that. So I guess I would be forced :(

Uh, I meant block not ban

"and didn't offer any means to regain access to the AIM protocol."

Yes they did, they told them to use TOC instead of OSCAR.

I must agree with your comment, they didn't rule out blanket 3rd party apps at all such as AOL did, in fact they made a point of welcoming such intergration as long as the license and rights of the creator are respected. I see nothing wrong with that. I also do expect any company to indefinitly support older versions of any app, it's not cost effective and after a while it's just silly.

Yeah I can just picture it now... You allow us to put our advertising on your client and you can connect to our service.... I THINK NOT!!!

I had the impression that AOL offered no means for other clients to connect to AIM, but rather they had to reverse-engineer their way in. If that's not true, then I stand corrected.

Francis

The ruling preventing AOL from fully developing thier IM program was the result of thier Time Warner affiliation. Talk to the feds about it...not Microsoft and Yahoo.

Why not. Do you support free software? Or do you support freeloader software?

after the storm comes the nuke msblast worms afected thousands of computers in a manouver to redirect attention microsoft does the worst thing ever. i use trilian that uses icq and msn.
long live the penguin
ps sorry about the mistakes im from portugal

I noticed that a lot of people from other countries like to post disclaimers about their English writing abilities. I'll give you credit, because I wouldn't even bother to write French despite studying it for four years.

For your reference check out http://www.dictionary.com. It provides excellent tools for using the English language.

Peace,
Francis

post this at LinuxQuestions.org , I guess will see that type of reaction it will get if any their.

its Under the post name

Messenger Upgrade to Disconnect Outsiders (from MSN)
but I didn't say if it will break linux connections or not?because I don't no

oh yea that address is www.LinuxQuestions.org
and I post this under the forums sections

Dear god a forum full of windows users what ever next.

Microsoft is at it again, as for working with third party developers, how much will they gain from that.

Why not just develope an open source IM system, then allow people to design clients how they like. Hmm why not well microsoft hates open source software unless its, windows ce.

Give linux a few more years and with no new release of Windows for a while linux could very well be the very best Desktop OS around. Well it already is people just either don't know how or can't be arsed to learn how to use linux.

BSD and Linux what more do i need to say

That's the whole point!

The learning curve is too steep on UNIX.

Computing needs to be dumbed down for the masses while retaining superficial security internally and strong security on the interfaces.

"Computing needs to be dumbed down for the masses"

I disagree, I think that people should receive mandatory training before being allowed to purchase a computer. Sort of like the drivers license system. It sounds bad, but just stop and think about it for a little while.