RSSMicrosoft, DOJ Reach Agreement
By David Worthington | Published November 1, 2001, 12:54 AM
Updated Lawyers from Microsoft and the Justice Department ironed out a 26 page document that outlines restrictions on the software giant’s behavior. US District Judge Colleen Kollar-Kotelly has given 18 states until Tuesday to approve the agreement.
On Wednesday sources close to the talks revealed that a tentative agreement had been worked out between Microsoft and the Justice Department. Legal wrangling remains under way over the precise language of the settlement – an agreement which the state attorneys generals have not committed to as of yet. Judge Colleen Kollar-Kotelly, who recently began presiding over the trial, has given both parties until Friday to reach an accord. Representatives from both sides are working around the clock to satisfy the deadline.
Microsoft has indicated in the past that it will not accept any deal which limits its ability to extend or modify its operating systems as it sees fit. The highly controversial release of Windows XP aggressively ties the company's online Web services with its desktop software, but its release was not blocked by the government.
Reports by the Associated Press indicate that the government will permit Microsoft to continue development of Windows unfettered, provided that it provide a "light" version of its operating system without all of the bells and whistles. Other areas of interest include prohibiting the company from entering into restrictive contracts with OEM partners while preserving cross marketing campaigns that offer consumers discounts and other incentives.
While widely known for jealously guarding the secrets of its source code -- the building blocks behind Windows -- Microsoft may be obligated to reveal certain portions relevant to its Internet Explorer Web browser. However, the vast majority of the Windows code will remain under lock and key.
Microsoft spokesperson Jim Desler told BetaNews that the company would not comment on any aspect of ongoing confidential discussions. He maintained the company mantra that moving forward to reach a settlement was good for consumers and good for the US economy.
The terms of the settlement have come as a disappointment to many leading industry and consumer groups. The Computer & Communications Industry Association issued a strongly worded press release entitled, "Settlement or Sellout" that outlined key elements of the rumored agreement that it felt were severely watered down.
"To say we are troubled by the published accounts indicating that the Justice Department is selling out consumers, competition and innovation would be an understatement," said Ed Black, CCIA President & CEO.
He continued on, "Microsoft has been declared an illegal monopolist by nine Federal judges, including one who determined it was necessary to break up the company. They should be held accountable for their unlawful actions, and prevented from further abusing their monopoly position."
So I wonder what all the lawyer types think about a law suite against Microsoft Asking for a $1000.00 or so "privately owned hardware charge" for using ones privately owned computer to generate their windows activation key? After all, they expect to be paid when we use their software so we should get something for them using our hardware to protect their product.
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|If you don't like it you should have read the Software Agreement when you installed it. It basically says that Microsoft () \/\/ |\| z j () ()!
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|Such grandiose rediculousity!
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|So I wonder what all the lawyer types think about a law suite against Microsoft Asking for a $1000.00 or so "privately owned hardware charge" for using ones privately owned computer to generate their windows activation key? After all, they expect to be paid when we use their software so we should get something for them using our hardware to protect their product.
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|SURE. Just ask any lawyer, and post their reply. I would *love* to see what you come up with. Maybe you should take the rest of the weekend off...
James Wheat
http://belprecomputerwizard.com
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|Very strange. After turning off Luna, Windows actually started taking up 3 MB more ram (172 instead of 169 MB) for me. Maybe I need to reboot? Nonethless Windows itself isn't even taking up 256MB of RAM, so it seems odd that *just* Luna could be using that much. My system I was testing it on is a 466 Celeron with 384 MB of RAM -- never had any issues or slowdowns with the new UI active.
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|Oops! I was tweaking some code and somehow managed to delete your comment fewt. Please repost.
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|What did I say? OH yeah heh heh ;-)
I've done it, I have installed WinXP, and have been using it for over 12 hours, so far so good. It's actually much better than I expected, but if you have any investment in software, expect LUNA to make it puke. (Anything Maxis and Sierra so far didn't install until LUNA and WinXP theme were off) I have to say that I like it. I'll be using it for the next few days (WinXP Pro) and will submit a detailed review (maybe you betanews folks can make it a news article to debate? haha) LUNA Sucks, IMHO It is the most resource intensive window manager I have ever seen! (Well, XP Theme didn't help it much). First thing to do, KILL MSIM! haha I don't remember what else I said, so I'm going to shut up, and go back to playing now. ;-)
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|Good man fewt! :) See, XP isn't all that bad. By the way, Half-Life installed just fine for me and that's a Sierra title. Haven't tried any others. Also, if desired, you can make XP look like Windows 2000 by turning Luna off. It never really seemed slower than Windows 2000 for me even with Luna on and I only have a Dual P2-350 with 392 megs of RAM.
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|Also, go to XP-erience.org for goodies...and feel free to email me with any questions you may have. I will help with what I can.
James Wheat
http://belprecomputerwizard.com
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|Since you hate Luna so much, you can:
1) Create your own
1.1) Get Styles XP (http://www.tgtsoft.com/download.html)
1.2) Get StyleBuilder (http://www.tgtsoft.com/download.html)
2) Use someone else's
2.1) Get Styles XP (http://www.tgtsoft.com/download.html)
2.2) Find someone else's style, as an example here is one that 'ynotm' did (http://www.dork.com/y_notm/Windows.NET.zip). Hope he doesn't mind me linking to it. It's a skin of the way Longhorn looks (next vrsion of Windows, i.e. .NET)
All of these products are currently in beta, but it doesn't stop you from 'playing around'.
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|wow this .NET style is great. i'm very picky with how my windows look but this is awesome.
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|If your installation if using more then 70MB RAM then you ARE AN IDIOT
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|Face it, LUNA sucks :-P I did turn it back on last night, after a reboot, and it appeared much faster. One of the installers I had run may have had a memory leak or something that sent it over the edge. Still, classic mode is 10 times better IMHO. (I miss my framebuffer console though) Other than that I can find no compelling reason not to use XP, Microsoft has seemingly resolved every "Windows Sucks" issue I've had with the O/S since Win98.. (Nate: Would betanews be interested in an article about Windows XP from a Linux users prespective?)
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|Wow, I wouldn't go that far, but damn I never would have expected that comment out of you!
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|So dare we say welcome to the world of Windows fewt??!! ;-) Yeah a framebuffer console would be nice, but XP finally has tab completion like Linux. It's about time, that's one of my fav things about linux...
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|"Microsoft has seemingly resolved every "Windows Sucks" issue I've had with the O/S since Win98"
OMG!! fewt, I give you my undying respect for taking an objective look at XP. You da man! You see, MS really does care about what the customer wants and stomping out bugs is a priority as well.
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|??? I fail to see the correlation. Why does it make him an idiot?
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|I never said wether or not Luna does 'suck'. I was simply giving you options since you do not like Luna.
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|I've only seen it in several screenshots and it is still in beta...but I was impressed! There will be a million and one themes once the final product rolls out, should be good.
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|I was just picking on you. ;-)
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|On the desktop yes, I still wouldn't say that it's trustworthy in the server room.
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|I have to admit that XP appears to be a damn good desktop O/S. It does infact appear to be everything that 98/ME/2K was supposed to be. (2K is ok, but this is much better.) It's a little big memory wise, but that is understandable as most Linux desktops are pretty memory hungry these days too.
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|I didn't either. I expected it to be another Windows ME.
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|He obviously did something to totally fubar his Windows because a DEFAULT UN-TWEAKED INSTALL is only around 80MB
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|I could have told you that, its NT based, not s***ty 9x
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|I knew that it was, but that by itself doesn't mean that XP would have been good ;-) I still think 2000 and NT both suck. heh.
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|You have to do better than that to pick on me....you should know that by now. I argue much better than that =)
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|I'll be looking forward to you review, Fewt.
James Wheat
http://belprecomputerwizard.com
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|Maybe you need to get the Server Edition to play with too, then...hehe..
James Wheat
http://belprecomputerwizard.com
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|No, I think you are the idiot.... Anybody who knows anything about Windows knows that the more RAM you stick in, the more it will use up.
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|And hopefully, all decent ones, instead of the pure crap that is associated with Windowblinds skins.
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|And that explains why when I had 64, 128, 256 and 384 MB of RAM it still used ~50MB after a boot up?
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|I'll agree on the NT, I used it a little and it is extremely lame
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|Launch Explorer a few times and IE, and even some apps like a normal user does. Nobody runs Windows without running any applications (I hope), so your memory usage numbers are a bit unrealistic. My comparison was with and without Luna, not how little I could make Windows use.
Of course I can turn off all Windows services, disable visual effects, run no applications, and end up using far less RAM. But since I do have the RAM, of course I'm going to make use of it to improve my computing experience (and run programs). I think it's more idiotic to not make use of the cheap price of RAM and limit the cool stuff your OS can do.
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|As long as anyone can make a skin, you WILL have crap put out there.
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|It would take a *hell of a lot* to convince me that it is any better than 2000 in the server room ;-) I wish Microsoft would port their server apps to Unix, they would make even more money than they are now, especially SQL server, I know a lot of shops that love SQL but hate the Windows server platform.
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|Well, you have a bit of time to wait for .NET Server anyway although you could use XP Pro to test the new IIS in a limited way.
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|Are you sure it's not 50MB of PageFile that it's using? My system with all services off, and no Luna uses about 68MB of "PF"
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|What I think is idiotic is the fact that they limit the amount of ram that you can put in your computer. My poor laptop is limited to 192MB!!! I fully populated it for less than $20.00 LOL!
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|I guess we need to give the idiots room to breath *or vice versa*.
I am sorry, but why on earth are you so upset about RAM usage? IT will cost me 100$ to put 1gb of DDR 2100 ram into my machine, so if I do that and windows uses 400mb of ram, I could care less, I am running 256 right now and with photoshop, dreamweaver, icq, msn, IE 6, and a few other misc programs running, I still have 100mb of ram left, after looking at the 600mb swap file.
:)
And my opinion with this microsoft shi*, screw it all. Unless it effects me and takes money from me more than they are asking for the OS *even though I dont uy them* then it doesnt matter to me. Does it matter to you, or shall you start caring about your own life soon?
--SubFreeze
--Master bootlegger *wink wink*
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|Time to upgrade your laptop :)
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|but I *JUST BOUGHT THIS ONE!!* haha
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|windowblinds blows big time. this styles xp is great though.
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|Windowblinds doesn't blow, the authors of the skins blow.
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|Sucks when hard drives fail, it'll be a few more days before I can complete it (the review).. Fortunately I have a spare drive, and a good backup of my data. Maybe I can ghost the drive before it becomes a total loss so I won't have to reinstall XP. (It still works, but it clicks like crazy)
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|Don't ya just love hard drive failures? hehehe.....See if you can RMA them back to the manufacturer, and get new ones!
James Wheat
http://belprecomputerwizard.com
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|I can, it still has a year left. Fortunately it's not the primary drive, I took my Linux drive out and installed XP on this other one that was sitting in my closet. Maybe Toshiba will send a 40GB 8mm drive to replace the 6? (It happened before with a Western Digital haha)
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|Their is still hope.
http://news.zdnet.co.uk/...,,t269-s2098366,00.html
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|And what does this have to do with the settlement? Besides, this story is a "Linux replaces Unix" story. Not even decent material for MS bashing.
James Wheat
http://belprecomputerwizard.com
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|define microsoft bashing please. to me it seems that If I say in unix you can do this and that and in windows you get this and that, then you say...boo boooo....microsoft basher!! and you go cry about it...
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|Heh. You sure are funny, saying that about *me*. I didn't say it was "MS Bashing", just that it wasn't "MS Bashing material". Besides, like I asked, what did that article have to do with the settlement agreement? I could care less that Amazon chose Linux over the more expensive Unix.
James Wheat
http://belprecomputerwizard.com
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|Really? Read this...hehe...
http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1003-200-7803522.html
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|I had the pleasure of having Notepad freeze on my computer. I went to task manager and hit end task but it stayed there. After two minutes, notepad dissapeared. I'm going back to win2k. To me xp is becoming more and more a poop os. The more I use it the buggier it seems. Win2k w/ service pack II is better for me.
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|It isn't recommended for P-100's with 24 Megs of RAM :)
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|Did you go to school for that ?
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|What does your Microsoft Bashing have to do with the article? Fine, go back to Win2k. Who cares? That is about as stupid as "notepade froze, so I'm going to linux!". Again, who cares!?!
James Wheat
http://belprecomputerwizard.com
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|"Notepad froze so I'm going to Linux" heh works for me *jab* LOL!
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|What O/S *WILL* run on that hardware these days? OOOH Linux will run on that! I'd put a P100 w/ 24MB of ram to use as a small departmental webserver or something like that. It's still slow, but useful. ;-)
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|How many requests would it take to kill that webserver running on a P100 with 24meg of RAM? =)
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|That's a good question, I'd like to know just because LOL. I really don't think a small department could bring it to it's knees though, remember these old machines did serve many people without a hitch until they were upgraded, the only real reason for upgrading is age, not the fact that they aren't doing their job anymore (in most cases mind you).
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|OT:
ever read the comics from userfriendly.org?
James Wheat
http://belprecomputerwizard.com
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|I haven't been out to UF in years. ;-)
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|SLOW is USELESS these days
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|Kid - Mr. Owl, how many requests would it take to kill that webserver running on a P100 with 24meg of RAM?
Mr. Owl - Lets find out, one, twohoo, three... three
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|It would handle a lot more then you would think, web serving does not take much CPU work at all, mostly HDD and ethernet work
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|I guess. I can remember setting up an NT Server for a company a few years back, I think it was a 133 rather than a 100, but that wasn't too difficult to bring down (if you really wanted to). Mind you we were running Exchange on there as well, so I doubt that helped matters.
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|Not at all.
I have a p-100 with 48Megs of ram and it's a superb firewall.
If slow was useless as you imply, do I really need an AMD 1400+ and 384+MB ram to run simple firewall rules? I don't have the desire (or cash) to dump for such a system.
That particular box used to be a 486sx-33, until I got the p100 for free. Is that a waste? I think not. The true waste would be letting those old systems rot.
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|The reason it appears that I am always here is that I have written a script that tells me when new comments are made on a 5 minute interval. If anyone wants this script (It's a Unix perl script, but it should work on NT with cygwin) just ICQ me, and I'll be happy to send it to you. ( 3947763 )
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|Did it disappear because it was too hard to answer a question about SMP capabilities of Linux compared to Windows 2000 Advanced Server and Windows 2000 Datacenter Server? I'll ask it AGAIN. Can Linux EVER hope to touch the MASSIVE capabilities of Windows 2000 Advanced Server which supports up to 8 way SMP? Can Linux in is WILDEST dreams EVER hope to touch Windows 2000 Datacenter Server whcih supports up to 32-way symmetric multiprocessing (SMP) and up to 64 gigabytes (GB) of physical memory!? LOL, don't think so......... These OS's are NOT toys by any stretch of the imagination.
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|Can Windows 2000 Advanced DataCenter ever reach the scalability of Solaris? StarCat (Sunfire 15000) with up to 106 CPU's.
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|Linux shows it's best performance on 4 procs, though I believe that it will scale to 8. Linux can only address 4GB of memory, just as Advanced Server can only address 4GB. Datacenter can also only *DIRECTLY* address 4GB. 4GB is a 32bit limitation, to get around that Datacenter uses a paging system similar to old school EMS. Intel's pentium line of hardware that performs worth anything when scaled past 8 CPU's (I only know of one box that can even go past 8) so your 32 processor theory is just a theory. I have yet to see any hard numbers that Windows datacenter actually does run on 32 CPU's. (I answered these questions this morning in the other thread -->) I haven't had the opportunity to touch a datacenter server, so my knowledge of it is very limited. But I consider any Server O/S that includes a web browser, a media player, and an email client installed by default a toy. ;-)
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|Intel's pentium line of hardware that performs worth anything when scaled past 8 CPU's
should have read
Intel's pentium line of hardware doesn't perform worth anything when scaled past 8 CPU's
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|The thread should be there when you log in. We wanted a copy of the study online that did not contain talkbacks.
regards,
Dave
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|Ya broke my script too :-P heh heh
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|The comments will display if you are a member, whether or not you are actively logged in. A slight bug didn't have it working correctly right away, but it should be working now.
Nate
nmook@betanews.com
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|Hmmm, "But I consider any Server O/S that includes a web browser, a media player, and an email client installed by default a toy. ;-)" I seem to recall that Red Hat 7.2 and most other versions of Linux include a web browser, a media player, and an email client installed by default. I guess you answered it for me.
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|I wasn't talking Sun, I was talking Linux but as long as you're at it check the cost comparison of a 32 CPU Wintel system with a 32 CPU Sparc. I would bet Sun's system is 10 times more expensive than Wintel. Sun is trying to be another Apple by keeping their hardware proprietary. Maybe Sun should be forced to open their hardware for cloning seeing that they are so opposed to MS being closed...........
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|Right, my script uses lynx, and it doesn't log me in first ;-) It ignores cookies, and just grabs page source.
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|They don't if you click server install ;-)
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|"The new powerful enterprise platform for datacenters and departmental deployments. Features include a journaling file system for increased data reliability, full support for UP through 8-way SMP systems, two-node failover for high-availability clustering, and multi-node load balancing. Backed by Red Hat Network, the Red Hat Linux advanced server will support high availability workgroups with a serious level of security".
Sun OS supports all the stuff in your post plust its more reliable...Unix does everything windows does but better. The reason why win2k and xp is good is because of unix.
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|I'll have to remember that. The next time I install any server software, I'll be sure to leave off the web browser, media player, and an email client. That way, if I need to download patches or third party software from a web site, I'll just go to a workstation, download the software, copy it to a floppy if under 1.44 megs or burn a CD upstairs (100 ft. away) if over 1.44 megs, and walk it back to the server for hassle free installation. Also, I won't dare to fire up a media player on the server between tasks to check the news as it might overburden the 512 megs of RAM installed on most of our servers. About the only thing that is a given is that E-mail clients should be left off servers.........
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|The addition was only implemented on multi-page articles (of which we only have one currently), so it shouldn't be that big of a deal. We need to get the new code/design/etc up soon anyways :)
Nate
nmook@betanews.com
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|I'm hoping you will leave a page very similar in content to your weekview page, that's where my script gets it's data from. ;-)
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|That's what NFS and FTP services are for, but you are just trying to make a point aren'tchya. IE is great on a server, just click that link and watch that file hidden in a .wav take over. It doesn't belong on a server. Download patches on your client, and transfer them over. Running client services on a server box puts that box at risk.
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|If a 32-way Wintel is sooooo much cheaper, how come you can't find them?
BTW, Sun isn't the only one make Sun-compatible Hardware. Ever heared of Fujitsu-Siemens? They also have UltraSPARC processors.
SPARC means Scalable Processor ARChitecture. It is designed to scale very well. The fact you don't find 32-way Wintel boxes is that beyond 8 or so, they scale like $#@$. Even if they are cheaper, you'd be waisting your money 'cause the additional processors just don't add that much to your preformance. That's why people by Sun. Each added processor also means performance gain.
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|You can modify your dodgy* perl script =) It'll give you something to do =)
*Personal opinion of course, based on everything in perl except for it's regular expressions which are sensational.
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|[smartass]
Having that box plugged into any network puts that box at risk too.
[/smartass]
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|Dodgy huh, is that why it's at 5.0 with 82 downloads? :-P!! heh heh
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|LOL, true. so very true. It has a much lower risk of being exploited without client software running on it though. :-P
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|SuSE, Corel, Debian, and many other flavors of Linux do install all that even when installing as server. Duh!
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|"The reason why win2k and xp is good is because of unix." That statement is the most rediculous thing I ever heard. LOL!
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|But...... at least you admitted that Win2K and XP are good.
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|You have to sign an NDA saying you won't tell anyone you had a problem or what the failure was. That is how Sun does business. They deny problems and before they will even admit anything you have to sign an NDA. Last year when the main CPU cache in the high end Sun boxes start to fail EVERYWHERE, Sun blamed it on cosmic rays and refused to fix anything without an NDA. Further they refused to warn customers about the risk hoping they just would not notice all the corruption.
Oh yeah, Sun is really great
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|We have a hardware based Cisco firewall that could fry the a** of the most experienced hacker. We could have ANY client based software running if desired and they STILL couldn't get in.
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|That my friend is exactly the wrong answer.
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|Strange, never had to sign anything and still broken processors got replaced. AFAIK, only companies that got "inside information" had to sign a NDA, and Sun isn't the only one asking for this. Just look at any company. Whenever they tell you "inside information", they will ask for a written agreement that you will not make that information public. You could say that it's what Microsoft calls: "Intellectual Property".
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|" I'll have to remember that. The next time I install any server software, I'll be sure to leave off the web browser, media player, and an email client. That way, if I need to download patches or third party software from a web site, I'll just go to a workstation, download the software, copy it to a floppy if under 1.44 megs or burn a CD upstairs (100 ft. away) if over 1.44 megs, and walk it back to the server for hassle free installation. Also, I won't dare to fire up a media player on the server between tasks to check the news as it might overburden the 512 megs of RAM installed on most of our servers. About the only thing that is a given is that E-mail clients should be left off servers........."
That is the stupidest thing I have ever seen. Have you heard of telnet or ssh? You telnet/ssh to the machine, wget the update. On rpm based system a little 'rpm -Uhv packagename' and you've updated it, on others 'tar xvzf programname && cd programname && ./configure && make && make install' and your done, on debian 'apt-get packagename' and your done. /Real/ servers don't even need a monitor, keyboard, or mouse. You access it remotely, do what you need to do. GUIs, media players, browsers, e-mail clients, etc... are a waste of resources.
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|oh please. The reason the networking is so good is because they "borrowed" from UNIX. You never have to restart UNIX when you make changes to the networking. Up until MS copied the networking components for win2k, you had to reboot the computer for the changes to take affect. Take your head out of your rear end dude...
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|Couldn't have said it better myself! :-)
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|The new site will be much more of an extensible architecture. That way we can easily add more pages and customize content display based on a user's liking. I am sure everything will be in some sort of XML format as well, so we may allow users to add their own scripts to the site. That way, if you don't like the site, we'll allow you to code your own version :)
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|Thats fine for Linux but try to go to Windows Update via telnet or ssh. Windows is all about EASY but Linux folks seem to ENJOY making things difficult. Whatever, I am NOT a masochist. Is easy inherently evil to you Linux guys? I run a few Linux servers myself but will NEVER use it for a workstation as I like to get work done FAST and be able to share files with the rest of the business world that has software compatable with the MAJORITY.
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|thats cause you assume like a jackass...I never said it was bad...just complained about certain things. I have 5 computers w/ similar configs and i was comparing xp to 2k and to other os's. I don't care what you or anyone else say. winxp is not as stable or as fast as win2k. It boots faster...it has more glitches though. The product was rushed to the market.
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|u mean 6.0?
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|or do you mean 5.0 is the version number of your script?
In which case...this is your 5th stable full release of your script? Or is it actually beta5? =)
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|LOL! http://fileforum.betanew...ail.php3?fid=1004662706
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|"I don't care what you or anyone else say. winxp is not as stable or as fast as win2k. It boots faster...it has more glitches though. The product was rushed to the market."
Your opinion. After actually *using* XP Pro with the exact same hardware/software as I used under Win2K Pro here at work, I find XP to be very fast, and very stable. But, that is because I am the only one using my machine, and I watch what I do. So far my "XPerience" has been very good. Your mileage may vary.
James Wheat
http://belprecomputerwizard.com
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|Ahhhh, just goes to show I don't use FileForum.
One review, 5.0, suprised you didn't review it yourself =)
I was tempted to review it and give you a 1.0 simply for using perl =) eheh that would have brough it down to 3.0 =)
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|Hey guys,
Been a little while since I posted anything, but I gotta make a statement. I'm not MS bashing, but I thought I'd throw in a plug for Linux here. I like the new WinXP. I just converted the entire network over to it. I'm using RIS (Remote Install Services) from my Win2K Advanced Servers. Having quite a few software compatibility issues, especially with anything not at least version 2002 from Symantec. Norton AntiVirus Corporate Edition 7.51 in particular won't roll out properly from the servers to the WinXP clients without an updated symevent. WinXP won't even let the services start. Fun stuff like that. And yes, after beta testing WinXP for nearly a year, I think the new interface slows it down considerably compared to Win2K SP2. I'm switching over though for better laptop support and the convenience of remote control and a few features. There’s also less to install as far as IE 6.0, Media Player, etc., etc. when doing a fresh load for a laptop that won’t support PXE or loading over the network.
Now, for my Linux plug: I’ve used many distributions of Linux for several years, even building my own version completely from scratch for my old 386 router (yes, it works fine as a firewall, it doesn’t have a web server or anything to slow it down). Win2K Advanced Server is great, it really is. WinNT sucked big time. However, there are three things that I love about Linux that I can’t get with my Win2K servers. #1 and foremost would be price of course. You can’t get much better than free. #2 is command line. I can SSH or telnet into any Linux computer and do anything I want without a GUI. Back before we had DSL, cable, and other high speed Internet connections, this was a huge asset. When you’re sitting on a 28.8 connection and need to add a user, change file permissions, restart a web server, etc., typing a few commands is so much faster and convenient than a GUI. Now, I love the terminal services in Win2K server and WinXP Pro. Very convenient and I use them all the time, but sometimes they are really slow over dialup. And lastly, #3, stability and uptime. No version of windows I’ve seen ever approaches the scalability and uptime of any version of Linux. Sure, Win2K Adv Serv has it’s 8 way processing, 64 terabytes of RAM, etc., etc. Remember the Beowulf Project back in 1994? Donald Becker, when he worked for NASA back in 1994, took 16 DX4 computer connected by Ethernet running a SINGLE Linux OS, and made the world’s first parallel computer system based on computer clusters instead of Symmetrical Multiple Processing (SMP). They called the system Beowulf, and since then many people have built computer clusters on this concept using Linux or FreeBSD. Check out this page on the 140 Alpha Beowulf cluster called Avalon from 1998. http://cnls.lanl.gov/avalon/ I’ve yet to see any version of Windows reach this type of scalability. I’m not even sure it would be possible because there’s no source code you can tweak to get it to work.
Well, that’s my 2c.
I know, when I finally write a comment, it turns into a novel.
I’ll be waiting for the flames!!! ;-)
Aaron D. Priest
Coastal Technologies
aaronpriest@hotmail.com
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|Have you ever used Unix, or anything that came from Sun?
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|Oh yes, they scale like s***, but Unisys' 32-way Pentium system w/ SQL 2k and DataCenter Server currently performs better than all other offerings on the market?
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|Do you have a link to a benchmark?
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|Would it matter if he did? You'd instantly accuse it of being a Microsoft-sponsored benchmark =) be honest.
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|No, seriously, I haven't seen much about that system, and I would like to. ;-)
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|try it, I'll bet there has been more than one review, just been one comment with a review :-P
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|Okie dokie =)
It took 4 review?!? (don't ask me) but the rating is down to 3.0
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|AFAIK, the Unisys isn't a real SMP-box but uses some technology that attaches "quad-cpu" units together. They have to do this because as stated before, scaling of the Intel Xeon etc... beyond 4 is a bad idea.
I have to disappoint you, I don't do benchmarks. Don't believe in them. To easy to manipulate them; I know 'cause I've heared stories in our company about how they beat competitors by "tweaking" the system to it's limits; no reflection of a real-live system. Sorry.
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|That's because lots of people reviewed it You don't have to actually post a "review" to rate it..
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|It is a bit expensive, but try SystemSuite 4.0 from Ontrack. It works great under XP (the virus engine, liscensed from TrendMicro).
James Wheat
http://belprecomputerwizard.com
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|(picking at your wording)
Microsoft licensed virus engine XP from trend micro?
HAHA
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|I also discovered that Norton AntiVirus Corporate Edition 7.6 is now out and is compatible with WinXP clients.
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|Ha ha...cute! Ok, the anti-virus engine in SystemSuite 4.0 is licensed from Trend Micro.... hehehee...
James Wheat
http://belprecomputerwizard.com
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|heh heh!
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|Why, Because they are consistantly and literally trying to take over the internet. Here's an example:
"Last week, people who tried to visit MSN.com with a non-Microsoft browser found themselves locked out. Although Microsoft's own Internet Explorer easily accessed the popular site, other browsers--such as Opera, Mozilla, Amaya and some versions of Netscape--received error messages and recommended that people "upgrade" to Internet Explorer.
Intentional or not, the incident has been a fiasco for Microsoft. Criticism has come not only from the software giant's well-known critics but from a key figure in the normally impartial circles of the Internet standards-making community: World Wide Web Consortium (W3C) director Tim Berners-Lee".
Berners-Lee sounded. "Control over a person's desktop and their browser is control over their whole Net-mediated perception of the world out there," he wrote. "It is very powerful."
http://www.zdnet.com/zdn...0.html?chkpt=zdnnp1tp02
A note on XP.
If you are brave enough to swap your motherboard and change it with another, your system will just halt. It will start to load and fail straight away. You can't even run it under safe mode since it will halt trying to find some files from the SYSTEM32 folder.
All your data will be unavailable since NTFS gives this protection until you reinstall XP system again. To give you idea how painful this is on an AMD Athlon 1400 with 256MB of memory, that's a 45 minute trek at least.
So when you install your XP and want to change your board, get ready to install Windows again.
Is MS the beast? Damn close I would say.
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|Take over the internet? Let me see, I am not allowing anybody except few friends on my web and ftp sites, does it mean I am trying to take over the internet? Obviously if it means that when Microsoft's doing the same thing. Maybe you should sue me for doing that.
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|I have changed Mobo, from PC133 ram to DDR PC2100 ram, video cards, sound cards- only time I had to "reactivate" was going from RC1 to RC2. So, by what I *have done myself* testing WinXP Pro, I disagree with your statements about "change the motherboard and it won't work".
About MSN locking out browsers- read my post a few down about K-Meleon.
James Wheat
http://belprecomputerwizard.com
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|Dude, that's not just an XP thing, thats pretty much a windows thing, period. You take a Win95/98/ME system, while it will still boot, it will go thru the tedious process of re-detecting every single device attached to the motherboard, while rebooting typically after each 1-2 devices is found. In the long run, if you're gonna do a major heart-and-guts upgrade like that on a system, you'd be better off just reinstalling the OS anyways. =/
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|I disagree, changing MB's with 9x, ME(yuk), and 2000(Using a NTFS dos driver) have never been much of a challenge. Build batch files and they do most of the preliminary work for you, along with a huge database of drivers (mostly current and includes Images from HP, Dell ect.). Leaving about a half hour of tweaking and cleanup, and its up and running.
XP Home Edition has presented a whole new set of problems. So far 4 customers have brought in thier systems after upgrading to XPHomeEdition and my bag of tricks and files dont help much. Total reinstall's. 3 didnt mind they didnt have any data to backup(simple) and not very costly. The 4th customer wasnt very happy....... A small buniness that didnt have anything backed up. I know they should have blahed, and blah. Let reality set in for a second, this is the rule not the exception in the real world. Total time 8 hrs, total cost 738.97$ This included a Zip250, reinstall of all their programs and data, and setup so this wont be a problem again:} After it was all done they had a sluggish system(they noticed. P3-800 W/128m and a printer and scanner that no longer works until the updated drivers are availible. I loaned them a box to run their printer and scanner.
They did learn a lesson, I dont think they will be upgrading any more this upgrade was very expensive.
Keep up the good work MS I want a good christmas
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|I have had a couple of boxes lock during an upgrade and have so far been able to fix them. One case was due to a SoundBlaster PCI 128. It seems if you have the creative driver loaded before you run your upgrade setup can hang during the detecting devices portion of setup removing the sound card gets you around this particular problem. I am sure there are other issues Microsoft can not be expected to test their software with every possible hardware and soft combinations. The only viable alterative a computer such as a Mac that limits you on the hardware and software you can use so you do not have this type of issue. In my humble opinion that is not really any choice at all. I prefer to be able to do most anything I want with things I purchase.
As far as changing the motherboard you have the same issue under XP as under any NT kernel. The OS has no DOS mode driver support as in 9X and you have to at a minimum have you IDE driver installed before IT boots the OS. During a fresh install this happens during text mode setup. The only work around I know of is to install the correct IDE driver before you change motherboards so you can at least boot the OS to install the other drivers. I have done this successfully many times even switching from an Intel to an AMD platform.
Just my two cents I found this out the hard way and hope some of the people new to the NT Kernel can benifit from this information. Support the NT Kernel is a whole new ballgame. For the mom and pop shops that have manly dealt with home and small business users this could present quite a learning curve but knowledge is power and after they have adjusted they will be in a better position to start picking up some of the bigger clients.
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|"Total time 8 hrs, total cost 738.97$ "??? I hope you are talking total time for all systems! And they should NOT be having sluggish performance, unless something wasn't set up correctly.
James Wheat
http://belprecomputerwizard.com
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|The 16meg video card didnt like XP's fluff and they wont turn it off the fluff. Thats reason they upgraded, it was purrty. Why did it take so long, welllll lets just say encryption and older cranky programs.
This one I would have gladly given to the shop down the the street!
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|I have installed XP on 7 systems and haven't had a problem... in fact most of the clients have gone out of their way to mention how much they like the look and feel and haven't had a problem with it period. I did the installs and didn't have 1 problem installing the OS or configuring it. Which is a blessing comparied to ME!
Did ya ever think that it was the end user that installed it incorretly? I have seen newbies screw up the simplest taskes and installing an new OS is one of them.
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|Heh, should have sent them to me- usually takes me (at most) 2 hours for a complete unconditional format, fdisk, windows install (not default!), driver installation, tweaking, to online, and them taking the system home. Dialup and cable internet access are both supported here (cable access via usb cable modem, or nic).
By the way, what kind of "16meg video card" did you have trouble with?
James Wheat
http://belprecomputerwizard.com
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|2 Hours? I'm impressed if you can do all that. Mind you I haven't installed XP so I haven't 'timed it' so to speak but to install Win 9X/Me/2000 from scratch, always a custom install, installing the programs for tweaking the registry etc plus the 'necessary programs', defined as "compression - winace, etc. norton antivirus and utilities, etc etc etc" then going through and customising the different views I like in Explorer, Control Panel etc etc etc takes a few hours. A lot of that is reinstalling the 'key' programs as I call them but it always takes a fair amount of time to 'get it just right'. Then again I'm pedantic about things =)
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|You must use AOL's browser to access the AOL sites. You cannot even get in with anyone else's browser. If anyone is trying to 'take over the internet' it is AOL. If MSN, as an ISP, decides to restrict access to the MSN website to paying customers (like AOL does) that is certainly their choice. It does not mean they are trying to take over the internet... just restrict access to their own properties JUST LIKE AOL!
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|I suppose this is what they get for taking their system to a shop that doesn't know enough to check a hardware compatibility list before performing an upgrade. Oh, wait...that's Microsoft's fault...right?
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|It looks like the DOJ was listening to consumers when they were making their demands. I'm eager to read the agreement once it's published. I fear however that nothing will likely change in regards to Microsoft's treatment of their customers, and OEM partners.
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|I agree, it seems as though some concessions by Microsoft were made, but far fewer than originally demanded. The DOJ seems to want to get the case wrapped up, even if in the end nothing will really change in Redmond. I'm very surprised the government wants Microsoft to open IE, as IE isn't exactly the most complicated piece of software. And an already-opened alternative (Mozilla) seems to be a better browser in the general sense (skins, standards support, cross-platform, easier to extend), even if it has some shortcomings with regard to speed and stability. Although, maybe the DOJ wants competitors to be able to better tie into Explorer like IE does. Nevertheless, the outcome will be interesting.
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|Opening IE could be a good thing, especially if it was ported to new platforms, and it's "IE only" standards were absorbed into other browsers. The only other thing I would ask for is that they open source (no, I don't necessarily mean GPL) their API's so anyone can compete fairly with Microsoft's own products on Microsoft's O/S.
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|Fewt, again, *WHY* should Microsoft, a software company, be made to open source its software? I guess I am not "techie enough" to understand WHY they should be made to open source, so "others can have the code" to compete with Microsoft, using Microsoft's own code? If everyone had the same code (all competitors) how would they be able to compete? Could explain your reasoning for this, please? (no, I am not being nasty, just curious)
Anyway, I like the idea of having a "Windows" and a "Windows Lite". It would be very interesting to see the two go head to head on identicle systems, wouldn't it?
(OT: did you know there is a "Redmond Linux"? LOL!!)
James Wheat
http://belprecomputerwizard.com
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|Not sure about Mozilla, as I can't get it to render text worht a darn, but I have been using the latest build of the K-Meleon web browser, and aside from having to set up the flash support, it is a very fast, very nice browser. I hope they can put the "tabbed windows" in like Netcaptor has; if so, I will use it mainly!
Oh- and I can access MSN, My MSN, and Hotmail with this browser, with no problems. Even been to the MSN Game Zone, and played "Bejeweled" with it!
James Wheat
http://belprecomputerwizard.com
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|I was only referring to their API's. Just the programming interfaces, not the O/S itself. Like opening MSCOMCTL.dll etc. That way any developer can use *ALL* of the hooks that Microsoft uses, and integrate their applications just the way Microsoft has (with Office, IE, etc.) Is Redmond Linux out of beta yet? LOL I've been folowing it from a safe distance ;-) Windows lite would be great, it would eliminate my arguement that Windows shouldn't be used on the corporate desktop.
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|I've heard k-meleon was a good browser, it is mozilla based isn't it? I installed NS 6.2 the day it was released, and I've noticed that it renders pages 10 times better than 6.1, faster too. :-)
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|James,
the reason why MS may be asked or told to open their API's or complete code for IE is because they've been convicted of anticompetative activities. It may be part of their penalty in order to level the playing field a bit.
Personally, I don't fully agree with that concept, because it basically gives everyone else the advantage that MS worked for without the others putting in any work of their own.
However, as MS is the defacto OS for most homes and many businesses, I don't know any other way around it than holding a "gun" to their heads and making them turn over the code.
Just MHO.
Christopher Spera
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|K-Meleon uses the rendering engine of the Mozilla project. How can you say Mozilla renders bad and say you use K-Meleon which renders all your mentioned sites nice.
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|Based on, yes. But I can view pages with K-Meleon, IE6, and Mozilla/Netscape (like this site) with K-Meleon and IE6 doing the best job. I have a hard time getting fonts to render correctly it seems with Netscape/Mozilla. Don't know why.
James Wheat
http://belprecomputerwizard.com
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|Thanks for the explaination, Fewt. Gee, we seem to be getting along better now! We must be sick or something LOL!!
I just got Redmond Linux installed on another drive, but haven't been able to play with it yet. So far (only one boot) it seems not to see the onboard sound on my Biostar motherboard. Strange that, since Caldera and Mandrake do. Installed really easy too, using its own "Redmond Linux Wizard", called RLizard. (gee, a "wizard" in Linux??)
James Wheat
http://belprecomputerwizard.com
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|Yup, seems that way :-)
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|Just a question, but how exactly do these sites determine what browser you are using? Is it by that little version-string thing (the Mozilla/whatever compatible etc etc), or is it more complicated than that? Just curious.
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|I'm guessing it's in the identification string that the browser sends to the webserver. I've read about it, and some of my developers here use it to determine which page to hand out, but I'm not sure exactly how it's implemented. Changing that ID string in opera caused it to start working again on msn.com from what I've read.
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|Every once in a while I just download the latest nightly build. They work fine for me and, when compared to IE, render the pages "exactly" the same (can't tell for 100% but they all look the same).
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|OT: Redmond Linux
Fewt:
Not ready yet. Doesn't set up my network card for cable access, nor my sound card. Plus, not as much in it for configuring as Caldera or Mandrake (or even Corel Linux).
James Wheat
http://belprecomputerwizard.com
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|That sucks :-(
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|I've stuck with RedHat, I really don't care what they die hard GNU/Linux guys say, the one with the best vendor support wins. Every Linux account I have worked on has used RedHat, it is quickly becoming the corporate standard which is actually very good in my opinion, RedHat gives back to the community, and cares about their customers. :-) It's a bit more difficult to get off the ground than Mandrake or Suse mind you, but it's much easier than Debian, or Slack. I purchased my last Caldera flavor years ago (1.3) Their business model comes across as a moving target LOL!
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|Hi Fewt,
I'm not sure, but one can use CGI scripts to look at the HTTP_USER_AGENT environment variable returned by the webbrowser.
Here is a bit of a tutorial:
http://www.cgi101.com/class/ch3/text.html
with a working example here:
http://www.cgi101.com/class/ch3/env.cgi
Sppire.
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