Sunday, August 6, 2006|02:12 IST

HindustanTimes.com » India » Story

Small town boy reboots Microsoft

GC Shekhar

Chennai, August 6, 2006

He'd wanted to be the next Dhanraj Pillai, but the vista that destiny opened up for A Mahesh led to greener pastures in the world of technology.
The 24-year-old from small town Tamil Nadu has created a software that will add considerable muscle to Vista, Microsoft's brand new operating system due for launch next year.
In all probability, Vista will incorporate Mahesh's creation, which is an image browser, image editor, web browser, system tools and disk manager rolled into one.
In fact, Microsoft has already validated and awarded the product BETA2 iBRO.NET a patent protection certificate.
This means anyone may make use of Mahesh's product using the validation key but would need to pay Microsoft a royalty a part of which would reach this shy lad from Palayamkottai in southern Tamil Nadu.
The first member of his family to reach the post-graduate level, Mahesh developed the BETA2 iBRO.NET as the fifth-year project for his integrated M Sc course in computer science. He chose Vista's developer platform, where individuals are invited to contribute features for Vista.
"For sheer conceptualisation and acumen, his creation shows enormous scope and maturity. It's a full fledged tool that would not only remove deficiencies in Vista but add never-seen features in the OS," explained Dr Krishnan, professor of computer science at Manonmaniam Sundaranar University, who helped fine tune Mahesh's creation.
For example, why a computer hangs remains a mystery to most. But Mahesh's product can display the reasons. It can also optimise the download speed of a broadband connection when needed.
Unlike other OS, it can also display properties of all the drives in the computer simultaneously. "Before Vista is launched, I plan to add more features to make my product more comprehensive," said Mahesh, whose father is a retired peon.
"Such a product would take a team of at least 10 people in a top IT company months to develop. But for a student from a rural background to do all this in just 5 months on his own is amazing," observed N Chokkan, a columnist on computer.
Mahesh, who will soon join IBM at Bangalore, is unfazed by the recognition and remains grateful to his parents and R Panneerselvam, chairman of his school who waived his fees for the five-year course.

Vista worked on my laptop which has:

1.6 GHz Pentium M
1GB RAM
A generic 32 MB Intel Video Card

The only feature you can't use in Vista if you don't have a good video card, is Aero. Just some useless pretty little effects. Also, i'm not sure why everyone says they have performance problems, as it worked quite fast on my laptop, except for a boot time. Other than that, it was running pretty fast, even if left on for quite a while.

Oh come on, EVERYONE knows that Vista runs best on the latest Hercules chipset.

You just can't beat Aero on a 720x384 green screen.

pfft.

newbies..

heh

lmao...

Altair 8800 works best. who needs a screen??

I had *no* sound on my SoundBlaster Audigy 2 card. Windows saw it but didn't seem to have a driver for it.

I downloaded a beta driver from Creative and indeed it's beta alright. Sound is rather distorted.

My Video card (NVIDIA 6800 GT) is supported so that's good (although NVIDIA also has beta drivers).

Vista (Beta 2) has no drivers for either of my printers (HP DeskJet 6840 & Brother MFC 7820N).

Brother does have beta (printer only) drivers, however.

And Vista itself is one heck of a resource hog, and I've got 2GB of RAM and an AMD Athlon 64 3500+ CPU.

Explorer.exe frequently crashes or mysteriously blanks and they redraws. Applications frequently lock up (fortunately it's only briefly).

But again this is a beta. Overall it runs surprisingly well, all things considered.

Boot time is actually faster than XP but once it boots is's overall slower.

Of course, YMMV.

Fear of Linux and open source software has definitely lit a fire under MS's a$$ this time around ... we should actually be in for a decent OS, unlike that crap we got with the pre-SP2 XP or Windows ME -- both of which came out when MS had essentially no competitors.

But now I read that the Windows kernel has finally gotten an overhaul, and they've made it modular like the Linux kernel. In addition, system restarts won't be necessary as often. I'm just a little worried about them scrapping the TCP stack they took from BSD in favor of their own new virgin TCP stack -- those take years to harden. The backwards-compatibility shims and DRM code also smell of potential exploit holes to me -- I especially forsee a lot in the hacker community using DRM in exploits both because the malware will be extra-difficult to remove, and to also make a statement. Yeah, DRM is about as smart an idea as rootkits.

It's a shame MS didn't trust its engineers as much as its PHBs, marketers, and lawyers to beat competition throughout the years like bTRON, BeOS, Go, or the UNIX desktops (though all those stupid UNIX fiefdoms really just beat themselves, didn't they, haha). But now with open source as a real competitor to the MS-branded world of computer science, we may finally start to see some decent products from the company.

By all accounts, lately their products don't suck like they did around 1999 - 2002 (when Sun and Novell were dead and Linux was nascent). Unfortuanately, though, Windows still operates with a HUGE software footprint -- and more software layers always means more security holes, since software by its very nature of being human-written is full of errors (see: http://blogs.zdnet.com/threatchaos/?p=311)

I sincerely hope Vista will reverse the trend in adding layer upon layer of software complexity in the hopes of providing a veneer of simplicity. The My Documents folder comes to mind: on my XP box, I navigate to "C:\Documents and Settings\alucinor\My Documents" but on my Linux box I navigate to "/home/alucinor". Why does Media Player *insist* I keep my music library in "C:\Documents and Settings\alucinor\My Documents\My Music"? On Linux, I keep my collection in /garage/mus and link it to /home/alucinor/Desktop/Music. Voila.

Small things, but it's death by a thousand papercuts in your daily routine.

One more thing: WinFX -- not a good idea. GUIs don't need to be fancy, swirling, bubbling things that sparkle. That was fun on Geocities, but what business is going to waste time with this? And if that's the case, then what's the real point of XAML then as a pretty toy? No, I think GUIs are headed in the Google direction: minimalistic, out of your way, allowing you to get your work done with as little visual intrusion as possible. GUI metaphors can become self-serving after a certain point; there is no desktop, Neo.

I _am_ looking forward to Monad/Powershell. But I would probably just prefer IronPython.

alucinor,...

I have never read comments more stupid then yours. You win. All of the other a******s of the world must bow down to you, they have found their leader. Don't forget to write your angry reply in using your sun office word processor that came with your new copy of lindows. Do the world a favor, stick to appliances, leave computers for 8 year olds, and up.

holy crap!

how about releasing just one version that includes the "WHOLE" OS, and sell it for a reasonable price. ($100?)
:-)

another reason not to bother with MS's $hit.

I was wondering when you'd show up.

Fewt may speak out against MS often, but at least he's coherent most of the time.

As for your two complaints (which is actually just one b**** about money):

Versions is only an issue because you want everything for less. To which I say;

You can whine and moan on about it all you want. In the end, the market will bear what the market will bear. If no-one buys Ultimate Edition, they will either take it off the market or lower the pricetag.

If ya don't like the price, deal. You're constant 14-yr-old-old girl whining (see how I wokred in that lovely insult? I learned from the best, ya know) will do *nothing* but annoy those around you. (As any kind of whining is generally wont to do.)

He's got a right to complain: have you taken a look at MS's margins? Damn, they're sucking cash from the industry. And most people buy MS stuff not because it's a superior product, but because it's necessary in order to interoperate smoothly with more MS stuff.

lmao..

Dude, if there are better options out there, they'd be in use. Don't give me that linux crap you spewed above, none of it flies in the real world.

MS has high margins. You bet. Why? Becasue people pay 'em. Why? Because their products are worthwhile.

If you think for one second that the use of MS products is due only to some worldwide "groupthink" you are sorely misinformed. Corporations realize that with a copy of Windows XP on certified hardware, using certified applications, connected to an MS server, on an MS network, *you* *cannot* *lose*.

It just works.

Think I'm talking out of my ass? Ask any of the hundreds of companies I have consulted for. Any of 'em. Large and small. We use MS products because they work *extremely* well together.

Whining about margins again simply serves to annoy. The consumer economy, for the most part, takes care of itself. Any first year college student knows that.

It's not like folks are going to start using linux because it works with next to nothing and requires an enormous amount of initial effort to get working in a large-scale corporate environment. Of course they're going to use something that interoperates well with their current solutions.

Duh?

Settle down, now, heheh. I don't think MS is going anywhere, so you won't lose your job -- but it is good that there are finally options, such as open source. The point I was making above was that when MS didn't feel the heat of competition, their products sucked bad. I would rather gouge my eyes out with a spoon than be forced to use Visual Studio 2000 again. Well, Eclipse has come along, and now apparently VS2005 ain't half bad.

It's also good that MS is being forced to open up its server protocols, so that Linux clients can connect to Exchange servers, for instance, without having to rely on reverse-engineering. This will help to provide a choice that's been basically non-existant for years: start buying MS, and you have to buy more and more and more of the stuff.

What's ironic, though, is that open source is about the only other option, because MS can't use its regular tactics of outspending or cutting off air supply on open source like they could on regular companies (such as what they did to Netscape by releasing IE free).

No doubt MS products *work*. Extremely well together? Well, of course, in comparison to everything else, because everything else relies on reverse-engineering to interoperate. This is a result of MS using their desktop monopoly as leverage into a server monopoly. With open protocols, however, this will soon no longer be a concern, and MS will have to compete on the merit of the design and implementation, rather than simply on the fact that they're the only method of interoperating.

I think the consumer economy can't take care of itself as easily when it comes to technology because the majority of consumers who buy Microsoft products don't even realize the difference between the operating system and the computer. They take what's on the PC by default. You can research the underhanded tactics MS used to unfairly beat other OS companies in the 90s through preinstallation deals.

As far as Linux goes, you might want to look into it, because of developments such as standardizing on the Gnome desktop, the Portland Project, Linux Standard Base 3.0, Xen, WINE, ODF, etc., it has become a viable option for companies, and heterogeneous Windows/Linux environments are likely the next big thing. Though they wouldn't admit it, Microsoft seems to agree, as they are including virtualization support for Xen-based Linux OSes in Longhorn Server.

I don't think Microsoft's monopoly is going to hold out much longer, however -- maybe in the established markets, but those are pretty much saturated. Most Linux PC growth will probably come from Europe, South America, and Asia. If American companies eventually switch, it'll be a collateral effect from those markets. These kinds of developments are usually not to be found on general PC news sites like these, though. If Linux is sorely behind MS on anything, it's PR.

If you want to try out Linux and see where it's currently at in terms of usability, try Ubuntu, SUSE, or Fedora.

Try not to think in terms of "Microsoft" and "everyone else", but just consider them all tools.

The company I work for is extremely sensitive to vendor lock-in, so we try to use a mixture of Windows, UNIX, and Linux. Most of our apps we're moving to Java or Mozilla-based HTML clients, so we can be assured our software will run on any operating system in the future. We're about a 6,000 person company.

"Fewt may speak out against MS often"

Huh? What? Me?

Naaw..

heh

It's all about the right tool for the job.

That said, FSCK MUCOSLINSUXWINBLOWSSLOWLARISHPUKEUXFREEBSOD they all suck in their own "special" way.

heh

when MS didn't feel the heat of competition, their products sucked bad.

Another duh. this is true of any company void of competition.

You can research the underhanded tactics MS used to unfairly beat other OS companies in the 90s through preinstallation deals.

No need to. I was there.

As far as Linux goes, you might want to look into it,

I've been pushing Ubuntu since the drake betas. I have 45 CDs (Well, 37 now) on my desk for folks to take at their whim. 14 Edubuntu, 10 Kubuntu, and 13 Ubuntu. Take that how you will.

and heterogeneous Windows/Linux environments are likely the next big thing.

Pure speculation. I doubt any company wishing to remain sovent would take on both the onuses of supporting windows application and interoperability and Linux (desktops, networking, and servers) when their existing infrastructure more than supports their needs. Add into this Windows shipping with the PCs they order and on the servers they order... Not enough bang for the buck to switch.

he company I work for is extremely sensitive to vendor lock-in, so we try to use a mixture of Windows, UNIX, and Linux. Most of our apps we're moving to Java or Mozilla-based HTML clients, so we can be assured our software will run on any operating system in the future. We're about a 6,000 person company.

Glad to hear it. I'd love to see the numbers on support, purchasing, and maintenance of your implementation. Though, fearing vendor lock-in, I expect they're higher than most, simply due to the exotic nature of that specific beast. (Though it is a noble goal)

"Another duh. this is true of any company void of competition."
"No need to. I was there."

I felt you were trying to make the argument that Microsoft's solutions should be the only ones considered because there was no viable competition, and that customers had chosen MS products completely on their merit. In response, I was making the point that because there is now competition, Microsoft has to improve their products, where previously they were poor. Are you agreeing then that open source is a viable competitor to MS? If so, why limit your implemention to only Microsoft?

"I'd love to see the numbers on support, purchasing, and maintenance of your implementation."

Hmm, I don't think I'm allowed to provide those to you, but we don't have a higher IT budget because of this "exotic beast", as you call it. In fact, the more open source we gradually phase in, the lower our budget gets! While Linux admins are more expensive, in my experience they do a much better job and also can admin more systems than a Windows admin, mostly because they are able to script a lot of repetitive tasks in Perl, Python, or Bash. So we don't need to hire that many of them. We have a lot of UNIX admins on hand anyways, because of a lot of AIX and some HP-UX in the company.

We've been phasing out ActiveDirectory in favor of PHP-based Wikis as well as Zope. We've also been phasing out the running of our Java appservers on Windows boxes in favor of Linux boxes, and that likewise has saved us quite a bit, especially by getting SUSE preinstalled!

Everyone is still running Windows on laptops, though. Linux just isn't ready for our desktop yet because of several legacy applications, but we hope to phase dependency off of these before support ends for XP. By that point, we should be running only Linux desktops/laptops -- sooner if we can create an effective Citrix solution in the meantime.

In the long run, then, we know we will save a LOT of money thanks to getting off the Microsoft treadmill of upgrades.

All in all, integrating these environments is not that difficult thanks to a service oriented architecture. Also, I'm eager to find out what virtualization can do for us -- we've been reluctant to go with VMWare's solution, but Xen and Virtual PC both have us considering it.

What industry do you consulting for? Is it a specific industry, I guess I should ask. Because it seems to me that the open source phenonemon hits one industry at a time: government, telecom, banking, education, health care, etc.

"I've been pushing Ubuntu since the drake betas. I have 45 CDs (Well, 37 now) on my desk for folks to take at their whim. 14 Edubuntu, 10 Kubuntu, and 13 Ubuntu. Take that how you will."

I'm glad to hear that you've started looking into Linux! It is great indeed that MS has some viable competition nowadays, so there is more choice and better quality available to end users.

Are you agreeing then that open source is a viable competitor to MS? If so, why limit your implemention to only Microsoft?

I'd say they're more worried about MacOS than Linux, but since MacOS is a *nix-based OS, sure, why not. AS for limiting, well... I suppose I should state for the record that what folks do at home is their own business. For the most part, my comments revolve around corporate implementations, and I just cannot see a cost-benefit to switching over to an unsupported system that involves a *huge* learning curve and new tools for just about everything they do.

Also, I'm eager to find out what virtualization can do for us -- we've been reluctant to go with VMWare's solution, but Xen and Virtual PC both have us considering it.

VMware. Get a hold os a copy of ESX Server, and you will never go back. Trust me. I've sued it at several locations and have always been amazed at the results. I've been working with them directly now for about 3 years. (So you may just want to dismiss this comment as biased..I don't work *for* them, but there is a lot of contact there)

I'm glad to hear that you've started looking into Linux!

lmao..

Sorry, I missed the point, apparently. My linux use dates back to 1994's Yggdrasil linux. I've been hopping from distro to distro ever since. Still don't use it as my main OS anywhere. Still don't recommend it to most folks. The CD's I have are simply an experiment based on my own morbid curiosity. ;)

"For the most part, my comments revolve around corporate implementations, and I just cannot see a cost-benefit to switching over to an unsupported system that involves a *huge* learning curve and new tools for just about everything they do."

The learning curve is larger for enterprises without any UNIX experience, but for us, having UNIX knowledge on hand, migrating to Linux has been no trouble. We also pay Novell/IBM for support on mission-critical servers.

We were pretty angry with Microsoft for ending support on VB, and instead of moving to .NET, which would forever lock our IP into a single vendor, we decided to go to Java, which is about as difficult for a VB programmer to learn as VB.NET or C#.

"I'd say they're more worried about MacOS than Linux"

I think Microsoft is worried about Apple's iTunes as a content-distribution platform, but Macs don't really compete with PCs as one is closed and the other is open.

"The CD's I have are simply an experiment based on my own morbid curiosity."

What's so morbid about Linux? It's getting successfully deployed to a greater and greater extent every year. I would say there is a lot of life in that OS.

I take it, though, that you agree Linux as a competitor to MS is causing that company to wake up and improve its products. What's funny, is that the ill-named "Get the Facts" campaign is what orignally perked my company's interest in Linux, since we wondered why Microsoft would be so apparently worried about this operating system. We did some trials and found out.

"Get a hold os a copy of ESX Server, and you will never go back"

Since Microsoft is offering to support SUSE Linux on Virtual PC, we'll probably go with that solution for virtualization in that direction, but more often than not, we'll probably be virtualizing Windows on Linux, so for that we'll use Xen, I'm sure.

"My linux use dates back to 1994"

Interesting. We didn't find out about Linux until recently, and have been quite impressed. We're grateful to beta testers like you who have really broken new ground for open operating sytems. It seems all computing infrastructure follows this basic pattern, first with open network standards, then the open x86 architecture, and now open operating systems. It's quite an interesting pattern. I suspect the next iteration (after the open OS cycle is complete) will be open data standards, such as ODF and RDF (semantic web).

Why do you bother to comment n00b?

i'd like to point out in the case of new OS's and life itself, people in general tend to say they hate the new changes. This is just a case of embracing change and most people are against that more then they know and would admit to themselves. I guess you have to walk a fine line between giving things a chance and not being content with crap.

Agreed.

Thats what people say about switching to OSX. Most hate it for 1 week until they get to know all the features and innovations.

Man...I tried the next-to-latest Vista beta for one day. That was all I could take of this gussied-up piece of garbage. Seems like only yesterday that I first installed XP Pro as a primary desktop (XP Home is a joke as we all quickly discovered). I had it in 'classic' mode after about an hour, and I learned to appreciate A FEW of its new features. Thats not the case with Vista, at least not the beta. It adds nothing of value to any user I know, be they technical or casual. The 'classic' mode does not restore all the functionality of XP (best example? The missing 'up one level' button). In fact, it makes things far less intuitive and more difficult to manage on your system - not exactly an improvement in my book. I especially don't like the system-hogging, OSX rip-off that is Aero..if I wanted a Mac, I'd BUY one. Backwards compatibility has been virtually abaondoned and driver support is terrible. Unless there are enourmous changes before the final ships, I honestly don't know what I'll do when they start curtailing support for XP. Hopefully by that point Linux will have matured into a real OS with a fully integrated desktop.

Why do you need the 'up one level' button when you can go to any level on the address line? I find the new explorer much easier to use. And funny that all of my devices on a laptop works.

Its a matter of being intuative. Yes there is more then one way of doing something but what is faster and more intuative when you are 6 folders deep and want to go up 1 or 2? Click a button once or twice or start typing in the address bar? The purpose of the GUI was so you could do things without having to type. Another thing I hate is the device manager is a pain to get to now. Win95 to Win98 was better, 98 to 2K was better, 2K to XP was mostly GUI, Memory managment and butter Direct X support...but still better... XP to Vista...I'm not convinced yet that it will be better.

(best example? The missing 'up one level' button). I

Whereas, had you actually taken the time to *look* at the screen, you would have seen the line-of-progression at the top of the window (in the address bar) looking something like this:

Computer -> Vista(C:) -> Program Files -> Pr0nRipper

Clicking on *any* of the above will take you up however many levels you wish to go. It beats 'Up one Level' by allowing you to go up any number of levels with only one click.

I especially don't like the system-hogging, OSX rip-off that is Aero

Funny you mention that as Aero is run fully in DirectX mode, thus using your Video Card directly (and not offloading to the CPU like XP).

Backwards compatibility has been virtually abaondoned

In exchange for speed, stability, and security concerns. The backwards compatibility you speak of is 16-bit support. It should have been dropped in XP.

and driver support is terrible.

This is a manufacturer issue, and not a Vista issue. Driver support *always* sucks in a Beta. You did know it was a beta, right?

In other words, If you actually took the time to think about any of the above, you'd have a lot less to b**** about. As for not liking the interface, it's only 'less intuitive' for you because you are unfamilliar with it. Spending more time and actually *using* it would cure that quickly.

You'd rather click 6 times on the "up one level' button than click *one* item in the line-of-progression in your address bar? (No typing necessary, you've obviously not used this feature. It exists in all explorer windows)

Wow. You fear change of any kind, don't you?

As for the Device Manager:
Huh....

Play with it a bit.

There are several easy ways to get there.

Again, this is an issue with change. Just because it is different does not mean it is harder or less intuitive. Any change takes adjustment.

double

I believe the community behind Linux needs to mature before the OS does, otherwise as of RIGHT NOW, a few distros are superior OSes in almost every way.

As for the folder level in a window, no I didnt know that was a feature in Vista. But I can say that it takes less time to get to the device manager in XP then in does in Vista. I dont have a problem with change, so long as its for the better. Note that I am NOT saying dont fix it if its not broken, as that leads to many advances but if you change something and in the end it is not better then where you started, admit the mistake and go back to what worked better. With 3500Mhz and 2GB of ram, it shouldnt take more effort to get to the same place in a new OS. I havent spent a lot of time using Vista because of the poor driver support for 64 bit drivers. No driver for my Wireless NIC, the driver for my mobile works only 1/2 the time and its a 32 bit driver for XP yet Vista wont let the 64Bit driver from Creative Labs install because its not certified...I still have Vista installed dual boot but I use XP much more. I understand its beta and I am ok with everything not working, but what does work,(device manager) should be either the same or better.

If I released a ink pen that required a 10 second warm up time before use and no other features it would not be better just because it was new.

You keep talking about the speed. It's not going to perform *well* until RC1. Until then, forget about it.

As for device manager, I don't have my test system in front of me right now, but let me check when I get home. I know there's a way to get there in 3 clicks/or/one key-combo + 1 click.

On a side note, why speed up access to Device Manager? No, I'm actually being serious here... Stay with me for a moment. 90% of Windows users will never have to deal with or even *see* the device manager. Of the 10% that are left, a good portion of those will actually make things *worse* by going into Device Manager. From recollection, the last several drivers I've ever had to install in XP were done completely and totally by the setup program, Hell, I didn't even need it in Vista. After first boot, an option was on the first window allowing me to rescan for hardware missed / not installed properly. Anyone can get to that option after installing new devices upon the detection of a new device.

Basically, it looks to me, like they are trying to phase out the Device Manager by making it useless compared to the other tools offererd for hardware installation. Not necessarily a bad thing. And it *is* still there if someone *really* needed to mess around in it.

Back to that 'change' issue again. They've made DM less important by offering better tools for hardware installation on first-boot / new hardware detection. Many folks will be hung-up on DM. It'll just take time to unlearn that 'need'.

Not everyone likes the setup programs that come with hardware. Like for a sound card, or worse a wireless network card, or far worse a router sent by a cable/dsl company. The install program installs so much crap. The sticker that says "Install this first" is a sure sign that extra crap is about to be installed. I just want the driver for functionality. I will know when there is no connection I dont need a taskbar icon or other stuff. I dont need 380 sound effect options for sound output. To get only what you want you install/plug in the device and go to the device manager to manually install the driver. Now when I talk about speed, I mean the simple fact of XP running side by side with Vista.. which system gets to device manager faster. I do not need to know my system score before opening the device manager. I dont want to go to the control panel to get to the device manager, I dont need key-combo's, remember its a GUI and were supposed to be accepting of these changes. I only can reiterate, if it is not better (faster, easier, simpler etc.) then it should not be labled as such. I can not think of one thing that takes more time to do in XP then it does in 2K..in every aspect XP is the same or better then the previus version.

A different analagy...if I released a car that had windows tinted in such a way that all the colors of the world were more enhanced...but the tradeoff was it took 1/4 time longer to get you where you wanted to go...would you choose the tinted windows as an optional feature or stick with what you have? PC_Tool, your arguments are generally based on logic and do make sence and while I see your logic in this, just because things look brighter in, we should forget it takes longer to get there. If it looked better and took the same amount of time = good. If it looks the same and took the same amount of time = good. (because other features of the OS in general outweigh one thing not having new features) Now, If it looks better,(graphicly) but takes more time/effort to acomplish the same task as before then its not good. Remember, this is an OS, not a female. A female that looks better but takes 1/4 more time to vacuum the floor or load the dishwasher is acceptable. ;-)

lmao..

A router?

Simnce when do you need drivers for a router?

roflmao..

Simple solution for NICs, though. Extract the setup file. Point the tool to the extracted files. Done.

Austin, if you are unable and / or unwilling to even try Vista's way of doing things with an open mind, why are we even discussing it?

My point: DM is being outmoded. It's functionality is being replaced by other tools. I know you and others like DM, but give the other tools a chance.

Your point: No. I don't wanna.

Seems pretty cut and dried there.

XP Home is a joke as we all quickly discovered

Sorry if I sound stupid, but I've heard people say this before..and I just don't get it.

It is my understanding that both Home and Pro have the same foundation(kernel, registry, NTFS, whatever). Why would one be better than the other in a home environment? Pro gives you Remote desktop, encryption, and the ability to join a domain. RealVNC, and TrueCrypt take care of two weaknesses.
Do you find there is better performance in Pro? Better compatability?
I'm not trying to flame or belittle anyone. I'm really just curious of your opinoin.

Nope. Basically the same unless you want to use the buil-in microsoft solutions for software routing, RDP, etc....

Thanks. That's what I thought.
MS makes one product, then Marketing gets a hold of it and strips out features in order to make different versions.
I thought they did a pretty good job with the home pro division.
It seems like they went a little nuts with dividing Vista.
I can just see the yellow s***s at Best Buy trying to explain the differences to John Q. User. ;)

Actually, they kinda made it easier.

Half of the versions are either coporate(pro), 32/64 bit, or device(tablet) distinctions.

For the home user, instead of Windows Home, Pro, MCE, Starter, etc..., You've got Home basic, Home Premium, and Ultimate. down 4 to 3. ;)

Corps want more choices. Home folks want fewer. MS gave them both exactly what they wanted with Vista/Vista server (or Server 2000/2003, even).

MS bashers simply ignore the distinctions and cry foul just for the fun of it.

(let me asuage any comments about leaving corps with only one option (they actually have 2 including Ultimate). You forget the server versions. While Vista's won't be out for a while, Server 2003 has a 'few', as does Server 2000.)

comparing a bad apple to a bad apple doesn't make it taste better.

Bashing a company and it's products simply out of spite doesn't make you any more relevant.

I never said you need drivers for a router, the point was have you ever gotten a router that did not have a "Run this CD first" with it because it sets an application to setup the router, or a AT&T DSL Modem or Comcast modem that has an application that comes with a setup program because they load a bunch of crap that you dont need to set IP addresses and such. The same is true with other hardware The point is/was the setup applications arent needed and result in extra crap. So we are back to the original point...DM is deeper / takes longer to get to in vista then in XP. That was the original point that was made. Is that statement wrong? (No) So you say its been outmodded with something better. What is the better (as in faster, simpler, easier) option in Vista to get the drivers I want and only those drivers installed. You cant just say something is better and the only thing better about it is that someone is saying that its better. There must be substance to base that on. Is that fact that the GUI runs on directX better, yes, there is substance to base that on...is the hibernate/deep sleep functions better in how they handle startup/shutdown...yes...I agree some things are better in vista...device manager being more difficult/taking more time/effort to get to is not a good thing.

, the point was have you ever gotten a router that did not have a "Run this CD first" with it because it sets an application to setup the router

I toss 'em and use the HTTP interface. Much easier.

he point is/was the setup applications arent needed and result in extra crap.

As I said earlier, extract the setup file, or the drivers form the CD and point the Vista tools to it.

What is the better (as in faster, simpler, easier) option in Vista to get the drivers I want and only those drivers installed.

See above.

There must be substance to base that on

See above.

Also note that while DM may be easier to you because it is what you have learned, most folks are scared as hell of it, or just plain do not know it exists. For them, an install CD is Better/easier. MS is actually designing their OS for them, not you or I.

So while I cannot argue that for *you* getting rid of DM may not be a Good Thing™. For the *vast* majority of windows users, it will simply not even be noticed, or will be a function they thankfully no longer need.

Substance:

1.) The tools are there, the drivers are generally located on the CD (for those wishing to avoid software-based installations), or are extractable from the Setup archive.

2.) Using the tools provided makes it less likely a user will cause damage to system integrity via monkeying around with the devices in it.

3.) The vast majority of users would rather not have to ever use DM, and would welcome a system or tools in place that would negate any need to use it.

The fact that we are not amongst the vast majority is not a bad thing, but we simply must stop expecting MS to be designing their interfaces for *us*. While we may thrive in the "guts" of an OS, the average user does not, and MS will do whatever it can to reasonably protect them from such.

OK. Right now at Best Buy I see green boxes for home and blue for pro.
Will I only see home basic, premium, and pro at the store? or will the corporate versions be there too?
Not a basher, I can just see how people could become overwhelmed.

They may very well put all of them out there. But I seriously only expect to see Home Premium, Ultimate, and *maybe* pro on the shelves.

Again, most folks don't upgrade OSes, they upgrade computers. It would be much easier to decide whether or not they want a Home Premium ($800) ($1350 for Media Center hardware) system, or an Ultimate ($2,640) system. ;)

I guess your right about upgrading computers, not OSes.
The last time I ran out to buy the brand spanking new version of Windows was Millenium Edition. LOL.

Oh, you poor sucker. ;p

I see and understand your POV that there are alternatives to DM and I dont disagree. Hopefully you can see that getting to the still useful DM is less efficent then before. I dont like the changes because I am not part the 95% of users the changes were made for. I know MS must program for the majority but I wish that they would not forget the 5% like you and I in the process. Its like calling Dell support to get a new hard drive sent out and they want to go through a troubleshooting script on the phone first. I dont need the "tools" to tell me its failed when I can put my hand on the drive and feel it is not spinning up right. While the new "tools" may be helpful for 95% of the people who dont know the good old way...dont make the good old way harder to use. Last but not least, while I respect any responce you may have to this message I wont be responding as I have spent more time responding on this thread then I ever will in getting to the DM in vista even though it takes an extra step. Therefore I have no more room to complain ;-)

;)

Love the last bit.

Just in case you read this, one more point:

Keeping older 'ways of doing things' around instead of phasing them out leads to bloat and waste. :p

I understand your point, but I still think (and will verify when I get home) that DM is easily accessible in Vista, as stated above. Could be something as simple as the 'No Up One Level' complaint we've been seeing so much of.

I think even the pirates walked the plank rather than mess with ME.

heh

ME was nothing more than a publicity stunt.

ding!

I think you just solved all of MS's piracy woes!

Release nothing but OSes with *gaping* memory leaks and enough incompatibilities to make a seasoned sysadmin cry like a newborn babe.

No-one will *ever* pirate the OS again.

The corparation that I work for is in the process of converting all the PCs from Win2000 to XP Prof. Vista my be part of the reason.

Very doubtful.

Most corps will not "upgrade" operating systems. It's unreliable at best. Very likely they've finally gotten to apoint where they are confortable with the state of XP, or they have found a need for some of the features it supports.

Most large corps have term agreements withs PC makers that include a license. Once this is up for renewal they can phase in new PCs with a newer OS, or they can opt to keep existing PCs at a very very low price since they have already been paid for. It's a question of economics. Is there compelling reason to upgrade? The past few years have been tough on companies and PCs are now out of date at a lot of places. Corps have stretched these PCs as far as they can go. (In fact, I'm typing this on an 800 MHz Windows 2000 machine.) I think as contracts come up for renewal in 2007 you will see a lot of Vista roll-outs replacing Windows 2000.

Likely on new computers....which was my point above.

Most of the corps I have worked with, large and small, EOL their non-proprietary systems at 5 years unless leased, in which case I've seen it as little as 9 months, as much as 3 years.

I've only seen Software uprgades of the OS when a specific application, service, or other pressing need demands it, and then they are not upgrades, but clean installs with tested images.

But I've only worked with a few hundred. ;) I can't speak for the rest of 'em.

HEH

(that one's for you bourgeoisdude.)

its nice to know i can't upgrade from my X64... looks like I take a back burner again. though it won't matter cause ill do a clea upgrade

Holy crap! these guys are totally insane. The other day, I read that Vista has really high end requirements. So what's the use of these "upgrades" if your system can't support them. And what about recovery discs? Do you have to install XP Home and then Vista on top of it?? Screw you microsoft, no way am i doing that.

Holy Crap! Where'd you hear that???

Vista's requirements are rather low for today's systems, actually.

1Ghz CPU.
1GB of RAM (512 Min. Mine has 768 and runs Vista just fine)
128MB Video card.

Vista isn't out yet, so you don't know how it'll run. And if you are using the beta's, you are full of it, the performance is godawful even on modern hardware.

1.) These are the requirements directly from MS.

2.) My test system (A Dell Prescision 240 with an upgraded video card: Stock 1.5 Ghz Intel Pentium III, 768MB RAM, and an upgraded 128MB ATi Radeon 9600 AIW) works beautifully with the latest Vista beta.

3.) I don't expect it to blow XP away right now. Unlike some folks, you see, I *know* what Beta means. Don't expect serious performance boosts until RC1.

Is it slower than XP on this system? Hell yes, it's a beta. I don't seriously expect it to perform until RC1, and would not be the least bit suprised if it outperforms XP on this exact hardware by RC2.

Is it unuseable? Hardly. I've been testing it since the 'original' beta 2.

With all this energy about Vista on this site, just add rain and I bet betanews would eminate "Cerenkov Radiation".

Think we could see the servers from the moon?

Oh, wait you meant BETA as in BETA SOFTWARE not BETA RADIATION! I was wondering why a scientific research site was called BETA NEWS.

heh

"Do you have to install XP Home and then Vista on top of it?? Screw you microsoft, no way am i doing that. "

Where the heck did you get that idea? Shows how you obviously know nothing.
ITS called buying a full version and not an upgrade version and even if you buy an upgrade version, all you have to do is put your xp cd in the cd drive as proof that you have xp and it will let you upgrade if XP is not already installed.

All that to do what an Amiga did with an 8MHz 68000 CPU, gary, and fat agnus.

Boy, I wonder how zorro felt when they dumped gary for gayle. :-/

heh

Yah lol.

3.) Don't expect performance boosts until SP1... ;)

PC_Tool, you must have read the same requirements that I did although Hewlett Packard/Compaq are telling people that 64 Megs video is Vista Compliant. I just weighed the choice of building 2 new computer verses buying 2 already made up and found it far cheaper to purchase 2 Compaq SR1913WM computers from Walmart and then just upgrading them. Both machine came with nvidia intergrated 256meg video but compaq had set the bios to 64 Megs. The choice was there to share upto 128 megs but not 256. This was understandable because there was only 512 megs of memory to start with. About an hour after I had both machines set up and online, HP sent a bios update through which according to them, was supposed to stablize a USB 2.0 issue. What it did was totally remove any present of the video in the bios and lock the systems to 64 Megs yet they still sport a "Vista Capable' sticker on the front of the machines.

After several disconnects (possibly intentional), with their online support chat and 2 telephone hang ups (Definetely intentional), i finally called Corporate in Palo Alto, CA. I got through to a real American speaking case manager who was quite knowledgable and is trying to resolve this issue although he, like HP, still say that even with 64 Megs of video memory, that these machines are Vista Capable.

Personally speaking, I'm gonna' hold out as long as I can before I cowtow to Microsoft and purchase Vista. There are several things that I do not like about it and I certainly do not like the multi-level pricing depending on which operating system you are currenly running.

I feel though, that Microsoft could have better named Vista to something much more approapiate, like Bush's Revenge or something along that line because like Bush is trying to take away our freedom and rights, so is Microsoft with so many other computer and parts manufactuers going along for the ride. I can somewhat understand Vista Compliant Sofeware but Vista Compliant Parts ? Come on Microsoft, Some Legal Eagle is going to see right through your real plan and then the real S**T will hit the fan.

My suggestion to computer users, Boycott Vista, do not give up your rights to install whichever software or parts on your machine that you want to. I could go even deeper into this subject but I won't because I think I said enough already.

I will end this by saying "Bite Me Microsoft"

Beta 2 runs like a dog, the latest July CTP release is much faster. Still very buggy, and slower than XP, but getting there.

Friar Tuck,

Wow! that must be some good s**t you are smoking... Pass it around dude!!

Bush and MS bashing all in one. How would have thunk it?

ROFLMAO!!!

That hurt, damn you.

WTH?

Please tell me you were actually *experiencing* a USB issue. BIOS updates are not toys.

That said, a simple restore of the backup you made of the old BIOS would have solved the issue rather quickly. You *did* back-up the old version, right?

Seriously...

I wouldn't give a rat's a** what HP says about 'Vista Capability'. The stats from MS are the stats. Yes, 64 Meg will run Vista, but your experience is going to seriously suck.

It sounds like the majority of your complaints are about HP, though....not Vista. You'd be better off telling HP to bite you. MS had nothing to do with your current fiasco.

heh

Sorry I could get back to you earlier, phone company showed up to install another DSL connection (we needed two).No, I was not experiencing USB issues but like Microsoft, they never fully explain themselves about the updates. Yes, I do have gripes with HP but they seem to be addressing them, the latest was I went to hook up my Linksys router to both of my machines and it would only let me access the internet with one or the other. Problem, this BIOS update also changed the MAC addresses on ALL computers that received it to the same address. I got by that because each computer has two nics and I just swapped out the cables. Yes, I agree that HP is providing the wrong info concering the video and Vista but they are holding firm to it. They may be basing this on PCI Express also (?)

And contrary to your beliefs, I most certainly do have gripes with Microsoft. I truly do not like them telling me who's software or hardware I can use and taking control away from what I do on my computer. If I want to copy a CD or DVD that I have purchased to use in the car instead of taking the original out there to get scratched and crapped up, that should be be my choice. If I want to run a piece of software that may be "in the Gray" area so to speak, that again is my choice. I like trying out full working versions before I purchase them. I even download music but everytime it is played, a royality is paid on it (through an internet radio station and another company that I work for). These are my choices as well as others and Microsoft should not infringe on them as well as dragging other manufactuers into it. With Microsoft vowing to hold firm on their support time allotments, they should be phasing out support for XP very soon. They finally have an O/S that works and works well and they have to try and fix it by introducing Vista. To coin a phrase, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

I'm really not sure about the rest of you here but Microsoft and Vista really concern me. I truly feel that they are taking our freedom of choice away from us not to mention probably forcing us to pay higher prices for hardware and software because of the licensing fees that the manufactuers will have to pay to become Vista Certified. I truly feel that our U.S Courts need to look into some of these practices and judge Microsoft's intentions on Constitutional Law. Again, I'll ask, are there any Lawyers in the forum? Does the words "Class Action" come to mind? Think about it.

If I want to copy a CD or DVD that I have purchased to use in the car instead of taking the original out there to get scratched and crapped up, that should be be my choice.

That's a RIAA gripe, not an MS gripe.

I truly do not like them telling me who's software or hardware I can use and taking control away from what I do on my computer

Uhh... What aren't they letting you use?

. I like trying out full working versions before I purchase them. I even download music but everytime it is played, a royality is paid on it (through an internet radio station and another company that I work for).

Again, not an MS issue...this is a RIAA / MPAA / copyright issue. Seriously, do you think it's MS telling iTunes to DRM their content??

It sounds to me like you are confusing piracy with fair use. It also sounds like you're blaming MS for Anti-Piracy craze brought on by the RIAA. RIAA and MPAA came up with HDCP. If MS wanted to support content and products complying with such, they *had* to include it int their OS. No choice.

If Apple and Linux want to support Blu-Ray, HD-DVD HDCP encoded formats, then they will *have* to include it as well.

MS didn't do this alone. Teh entire industry has made this descision.

Does anyone else get pissed off by the fact that there are so many versions of Vista? Sure I could spend the time to learn the differences of each one since I'm in the IT field, but what about "normal" people that just use the computer for word processing and the Internet?

Just read this nonsense:

"All versions of Windows Vista can be installed atop Windows XP Home, while Windows XP Media Center Edition can be upgraded to either Vista Home Premium or Vista Ultimate. The Tablet PC Edition of Windows XP is upgradable to Vista Business and Vista Ultimate." So you know which one to get now right dad? Sheesh.

"Does anyone else get pissed off by the fact that there are so many versions of Vista?"

Not really. Windows XP has just as many versions argueably: Windows XP Home, Windows XP Pro, Windows XP x64-bit Pro, Windows XP IA-64 bit edition (now EOL--the Itanium version), Windows XP MCE, Windows XP MCE 2004, Windows XP MCE 2005, and Windows XP Tablet PC Edition. Counting all the MCE versions as just one, and discounting the rarely used or mentioned Itanium XP edition, there's five editions of Windows XP. Windows 2000 has even more versions when you count the Servers, and heck NT 4.0 had at least 6 versions.

So, no, Vista has just received more press so all the "unheard of" versions that consumers like you and I will never see are listed in the Internet press releases--XP had the 4 versions announced followed by the Tablet PC version afterwards, it's just that you weren't a betanews-oholic back then :)

If that pissess you off, you really need to get out more.

Sure thing Mr. hang out on betanews all day adding witty remarks to every topic on the website. Have you ever seen a breast?

Not that this is *any* of your busines, but....

1.) Married with 3 children.

2.) I have the time, the money, and the luxury to do so. I enjoy it, among many other activities.

You asked...

mmmm CHICKEN!

heh

"I have the time, the money, and the luxury to do so."

Ain't it great?

heh

OO, you proved him way wrong. lol

lol, I hope I will to one day.

Does Vista not have 64-bit versions of each release? I'd count at least 10 editions then, not including the to-be-released server editions.

It's got more than XP, easily.

You are of course speaking of Chicken Breast Right?

Jordanr05 says....... Have you ever seen a breast?

PC_Tool says....... Married with 3 children.

I say.....Yep I'd say it's a pretty good bet that he has.

and I now say to Jordanr05....Think you may want to pull that corncob out of your posterior now?

hah, it's even better when you don't have to spend the money on it. grand when work pays you to "play" with new tech.

Most of the time. ;)

Does it matter?

So you and your life partner in Mass. adopted 3 times? ;)

Nope. Made 'em our selves. One Mini-Me and two girls. This last one's going to be a heartbreaker. Time to start learning how to fire a shotgun. ;)

My mom swears the boy is a clone.

...and two girls. This last one's going to be a heartbreaker. Time to start learning how to fire a shotgun
That's why I don't want kids, I know I would have a girl, and I wouldn't want to go to jail for manslaughter.

lmao..

I hear ya.

What's the upgrade path from XP MCE2005?

Vista Home Premium and Vista Ultimate

Second to last Paragraph:

while Windows XP Media Center Edition can be upgraded to either Vista Home Premium or Vista Ultimate.

A better upgrade path matrix is here (easier to read than 4 paragraphs):

http://arstechnica.com/n...post/20060730-7384.html

WAAAH WHY WON'T IT RUN ON MY COMPUTER!

It's not THAT OLD!

See!

http://images.google.com...rch&sa=N&tab=wi

heh

Good question frankwick, the 2 new machines i bought have The Media Center Edition which by the way, is the biggest piece of crap next to ME (thats Microsoft Windows ME), lol. As soon as I resolve some of these issues with HP, i am going to do a clean install of XP Home on both machines and be rid of MCE. I just have to keep these machines in original condition now.

Because it doesn't have a WinKey.

Funny, my wifes newest system came with MCE (HP a1410n). It's basically Windows XP Home with the MCE product.

Haven't had a single issue.

What kind of problems are you having with yours?

Never seems to want to boot up with certain icons in the system tray that i want there. programs say their there, msconfig say there there, they just won't display although they are running. in addition it is extremely slow booting even with 2 gigs of memory

Strange. I have an HP m1280n and it is rock solid. MCE works like a dream. It's what TiVo should be.

I leave mine on constantly and even my 3 year old knows how to get to "My Videos" to watch our ripped DVDs. I can't imagine not having this functionality.

Sounds like you have issues that are not XP related. MXE is really just a program for XP. It doesn't change the behavior of XP. MCE doesn't run at startup (unless you have set to run). Like any other program, you must launch it.

Try uninstalling all the junk that came pre-loaded on your machine. Replace Norton/Symantec with AVG Free. Remove Real and other junk like that.

I'd try restoring from the recovery CDs. (You *did* create those right away, right?)

Easiest way to diagnose whether it's a hardware or software issue. I'd guess software in this case, so the restore should fix it.

If you diod *not* create the recovery CDs, you still might be able to, otherwise, boot to the recovery partition unless you deleted it, it should be able to perform a restore as well. (Probably faster than a DVD-based restore.)

As frankwick said, uninstall pretty much everything not driver-related that came with it. (There are a few HP driver utilities, such as the auto-jack sensing and so-on that you should leave on there.) do a reboot after *each* uninstall. It will take some time, but that's what you get with *any* brand name syystem. ;)

Feh....

Novice. ;P

Replace Norton with NOD32. Yeah, it costs $40 ($20 renewal), but tis the last security product you'll ever need to buy.

I had that problem on XP Pro. I beleive it had to do with the upnp service. I used it so my router would show up as a network device, but it prevented certain tray icons from showing up. Disabling the service fixed that...I can live with typing my router's ip into my browser.

DAMN THAT WINKEY!

Recovering from Cd/DVD? these machines are less than two weeks old and i just got them where I want them. Yes, HP reminds me almost daily about the recovery discs and I will do that lets see, um, tomorrow.....maybe. after HP straightens out some of the issues, i will do a clean install of XP Home on both machines. I do have 2 legitimate XP Home Discs that are no longer being used on my other other machine along with a legitimate XP Pro. I'm sorry, XP MCE is vry bloated and i don't want to keep it on here unless I have to.

Wait, you aren't calling the Kaypro 4 a wuss are you?

It's WINKeY may be missing, but you should see it's space bar.

Feh...

*Nothing* can replace the all-powerful WinKey.

Well...except CTRL-ESC, of course... ;)

"but tis the last security product you'll ever need to buy."

You got that right!

Why "upgrade" anyway?

If you have the software to do your "jobs" right now - why consider any change? Remember: never change a running system.

Upgrading may be fit for people who have to use their machines for new tasks, tasks that were not sufficiently done by the available OSses and the available software running on those. I am aware of a lot of reasons to use a new OS and new software, but these are mostly reasons which don't touch my needs. I need a computer for writing, making nice learning papers, this includes simple image processing, translations, watching movies and, once in a while, for creating music. All this I can do more than efficiently and suffiently with the equipment I got right now.

Well - what I have now does what I need to have done really well. So why upgrade to VISTA?

Dude, if it wasn't better than the previous OS, it wouldn't be an *upgrade* now would it?

Why upgrade?

Security, features, speed, stability, reliability, etc....

Now, as I said below, I probably won't upgrade the OS on my current system, and expect most won't. That does not mean one should avoid it if their system was purchased within the last few months and can easily support it.

SHHHHH - All the marketing I've read says WE NEED IT!

heh

Many versions:

I am a software developer and many versions suck for us. We have to test each one. And we also sometimes can't support some versions because they don't have X or Y feature but our customers go and buy them without asking us and then they are screwed. It sucks that they have to either hack around it or go back to square one just because the versions are different and they didn't know it. It just causes problems and isn't worth it. I think 2 versions is plenty (server and workstation).

Why upgrade:

Speed... yeah right. This is just not true man. Try putting windows 95 or 98 on your current box that is Vista ready and watch it fly. I've done this and it's amazing how much faster the older version is. XP is way slower, and Vista is most likely going to be slower still. You can hold out for RC2 but I really doubt if you do a side-by-side comparison Vista will beat 98 or XP. Not that '95/98 was anything more than barely usable as a platform. I remember those days of crashing and rebooting and reinstalling. What a joy it was. At least XP/2003 is relatively stable. I do have to wonder why it takes 10 times as long to do the exact same things though. Again, I'm a software developer so I know exactly what happened. They are adding in eye candy and not actually improving the OS. The eye candy takes processing power and they aren't compensating for it, if they even could. You are paying for eye candy, and you're paying by the minute!!! Have fun with that.

Security...wouldn't it be nice if Microsoft actually wrote secure software? Yeah, that would be nice. I would really like that, in a way, if I cared.

Features....I'm not sure I need a new way to write a word processing document, check my email, read this website, or click on the icons that launch my games. Maybe someday someone will show me why I really need a new way to do those things but as for now, I'm not convinced.

Reliablity....maybe. We will see. I'm not holding my breath. Historically it isn't until the OS is near it's end that it get's really stable. Win95 B...98SR2, XPSP2... get the idea? New=crap.

You want an upgrade? If you are inclined, you might try NOT paying for something that is NOT different. That's what I do. I'm happily doing my thing right now on Kubuntu. Music is playing, web is rocking, getting ready to watch a DVD, just finished updating a design document, checking my finances in my nifty little spreadsheet that calculates all my nifty little numbers. Ain't it amazing? Don't have even the slightest desire to run Vista here. Maybe it's just me. Unfortunately I still have to keep abreast (not a chicken breast) of things in the Microsoft world because I am empoloyed by a MS shop. Sucks to be me. Oh well.

tipsyboy, i hate to tell you this but Microsoft does not plan to offer support for XP Home and XP Pro for as long as they offered it for 98, ME and W2K. Their plan? I'm not sure but it appears to me (and others), that Microsoft intends to force users to upgrade to their current operating systems in the future. In other words, if you want to own and operate a computer, you have to do it Microsofts way and give them full access to your computer and what you do on it and when you do it. Come on, is there an Attorney on this forum, WAKE UP MATES !

"Security, features, speed, stability, reliability, etc...." Who's ? Certainly not ours, maybe Microsoft's and some of the other software and computer manufactuers, Oh Yes, that sounds about right. Come on people, we all intellegent here. Read between the lines.

chronologic, I am not a software developer but I am a tech and I totally agree with what you are saying but I really feel that until they perfect X Windows and more everyday software becomes available for Linux, we will remain on our knees worshipping Bill Gates and keeping him supplied in cigars,lol

I've got to say that I agree with you. I just recently switched to Mepis and am happily doing everything I used to do on Windows. I had to give up PC gaming to do this but it wasn't that much of a loss since Microsoft is constantly breaking them anyway. I don't know about anyone else but as far as I'm concerned XP was the last bundle of money Microsoft will ever get from me.

Unfortunately most people either don't even know what Linux is or can't switch. If it's not one of those 2 they have been told that it's hard to use (which is what I was told and it's simply not true) and are afraid to even try. The only other reason I know is that they are a gamer which is the same reason some people won't get a Mac...other than the price.

It is possible to produce one or two CDs (DVDs) and create variants with different product keys to activate specific features within each version.

The NERO 6 Burning Rom was a good example

1A20-xxxx Nero 6 Express OEM bundled
1A21-xxxx Nero 6 Enterprise Edition
1A22-xxxx Nero 6 OEM bundled
1A23-xxxx Nero 6 Ultra Edition
1A25-xxxx Nero 6.6xx Reloaded

Extra product keys activate the Nero plugins. Microsoft could easily assign blocks of product keys to each version of VISTA and do the same thing...

Using the latest beta and armed with the knowledge of many of the changes they have made to the codebase, I will stand by my statements above.

They've rewritten the memory heaps completely. Not from the XP code, but from the WIndows 2003 Server code. There's a speed boost, increased reliability, *and* a security boost right there.

They've completely re-written the driver model and dumped support for 16-bit apps and native support for older version of DirectX. Another speed / reliability boost.

Features? You don't want to unlearn kludgy ways to do things, great. I'd prefer to learn easier ways. Change is not bad. Sometimes, what they say works better and more intuitively, actually does.

As for Kubuntu, I've used it. Matter of fact, I've got CDs for the breezy release of Ubuntu, Kubuntu, and Edubuntu sitting on my desk for anyone who cares to check it out. (As it stands right now, Kubuntu is in the lead...if only because it looks more like "Windows"...I have a desktop screenshot of each sitting above the CD stacks.)

I can still do everything I need to do in Windows, without having to fsck around with dependancies, makefiles, or source tarballs. While Linux has goytten better with these over the years, a lot of quality software for linux still requires it. Especially if you want to do something funky like set up a secure terminal server.

7 years.

They will support XP for seven years after the public release of Windows Vista.

This has been all over the press.

I certainly hope so PC_Tools because a recent article that was read to me yesterday Quoted Microsoft as saying that "it will be 5 years from inception" for now on. OK, were a bit beyond the 5 years now but according to Microsoft, were running out of time.

So from what I understand ....

XP would be supported until 2014 (2007+7)?

Sweet, thanks! More reason to keep XP Pro and Office 2003 Pro around. (and yup, I skipped Office XP/2002 cuz of 2003's blue GUI which perfectly matched XP's theme)

Am thinking of buying a new computer with Vista SP1 or SP2 or even R2 ..... and Office hmm 2010, note that the "2010" is only spectulation, which would have all Office apps redesigned (like Word 2007's ribbon UI, but not Visio Pro 2007, for example, so I'm thinking when Visio Pro 2010 comes out then that'd have the ribbon UI)

I will definitely wait till AT LEAST SP1. Knowing the way MS does releases it wont be ready for primetime until at least SP1.

Yeah...wait til it's*** critical mass in adoption and the hackers have fully targeted it. That will make your experience *much* more enjoyable.

Meanwhile, I'll be well versed in it by that time and be easily able to configure it on any system to avoid such problems.

Happy trolling!

If you want to stop trolling, then you can stop responding to my comments with irrelivant and incorrect whiner posts.

Happy trolling to you... TOOL

If everyone thought like you, nobody would buy the OS until SP1. The service pack level means nothing. Let's not forget NT4 SP2.

"...wait til it's*** critical mass in adoption..."

Which also means that MS will have deployed enough staff by then to finally support such issues, amongst others.

...and anyone who does buy - it would then be THEIR problem.

lmao...

Sure. Cuz SP1 fixed all of XP's problems, right?

lmao...

*reads my last comment*

Nope. No whining. No factual errors...

Huh...

Who's being irrelevant and incorrect now?

Nah...instead of pointing out any factual errors, or responding with a coherent argument, you resort to your classic name-calling and immature whining.

Typical.

I gotta admit, it'd be nice to see you add something relevant and insightful to a discussion once in a while...

WOW!

Why dont you just ask him to upgrade to VIsta before SP1?

The nerve!

HEH

Latz, SB

I'd much rather point out his faulty logic and complete lack of the common sense god gave a turnip...

...thus allowing him to come to the realization on his own.

See how thoughtful I am?

...though perhaps I *am* expecting too much of him... :p

SP1? XP had no problems when it went GOLD, what are you talking about?

We didn't really need any SPs, they just gave Microsoft employees time to kill..

heh

We wouldnt need most of these dang service packs if it wernt for those nasty little hackers.

-- or if the code was written properly in the first place.

by the way, that post was laced full of sarcasm.

heh

Gcoder, did you say SP3 or 4 or maybe 5?

NT4, heck, businesses in other countries are still using 95 & 98 and BP in New Zealand just upgraded all of their computers using a W2K environment for stabibility, lol. Rememeber, Microsoft no longer offer support for 95, 98, ME, W2K and NT

Yeah, and let's not forget WIN 98 (before the service pack) or Windows ME. ;o)

I think Microsoft is trying to redefine RIAA AND MPAA

AW YES, to quote a former Microsoft VP, Spagetti Programmers, hmmm, a good plate of pasta would keep me going for a while,lol

Compared to Windows ME, Windows 98 had rock solid stability. Heck, Windows 95 was more stable than Windows ME.

Ah, but it wasn't flat out, in your face, sarcasm. ;P

WIn98SE was *awesome*. And don't you *ever* try to deny it. :p

Which I made up for elsewhere.

heh

I won't upgrade to Vista until I can afford a 64-bit computer, and that version of Vista. Waiting for Vista SP1 doesn't sound like a bad idea, either. With my minimum wage, that will be a while. In the meantime, I'm happy to stick with XP.

That's probably the way most folks will do it. Upgrade sales on any OS are generally slack. It's what ships with new PCs and new hardware that gets the copies out there.

I'll be getting Vista shortly after it's release. (Of course, my PC is ancient and I started socking money away a few months ago....)

Dunno if I'll go 64-bit or not yet, though. Going to wait to see what kind of support it gets.

I'm sitting on a 64bit CPU running 32bit Windows waiting for the day..

64bit Linux sucks on the desktop, 64bit Windows hopefully will suck less.

Good Point PC_Tools but that reminds me of another issue pertaining new computers. I finally found out yesterday why computer manufactuers are not shipping the software with the computers anymore.

Microsoft had ORDERED these manufactuers not to ship it because it cuts down on piracy. Hmmmm, i wonder if that is really possible.

I don't know about 64-bit Vista, but 64-bit WinXP never crashes. It doesn't matter if you're gaming or doing video editing. Hardware support has significantly improved in 64-bit WinXP as well.

You can get a copy of the software if you call them and harass them long enough. ;) (The longest it has taken me, actually was 20 minutes, and that was for an HP)

An actual copy of ALL the software or recovery disc with all their crap on it. I told them that they should at least supply the MOBO drivers and manual along with any other hardware driver that is installed on them which includes the operating system that you do have the CD Key for. Heck, they couldn't believe it when i told them that the monitor driver disc was in the boxes with the computers,lol By the way, it will take either 17 CD's or 2 DVD to make these rovery discs to quote HP Support.

Took 1 DVD on my HP a1410n (somethig liek that, anyway)

Poinet I was trying to make above was that they *will* send you the windows CD. You just have to prove how much of a Pain In The a** you are going to be until they do so.

The next step, of course, is to either call Microsoft and request the media from them (425-882-8080), or bog down one or two of their(HPs) fax machines and one or two of their support personal for a few hours.

As for the motherboard, I lucked out. The one in my model is actually an Asus A8N-VM-CSM. All drivers directly available from ASUS. (Open the case and look at yer board, if it's an AMD / nVidia system, it's probably an ASUS)

Yes PC_Tools, it is an ASUA A8N-LA and i did check the ASUS site for the audio drivers, i also checked the Realtek site and negative on both of them. I'll just be patient and give HP a bit of time then i'll bug them again except this time, i'm gonna insist of all of the software and the O/S.

Why would users who sticked ti win98, upgrade to the system hog Vista is?

this comment is not directed to MS fanboys. I want accurate answers, not "because Microsoft said that this win would be secure".

They should not only buy a new license, they should buy a new PC. Are there any circa Win98 machines capable of running Vista? There is a NINE YEAR difference.

Depends on how close Vista sticks to the minimum requirements to actually be useable.

Just prior to ME's release, systems were being sold that were capable of meeting the minimum Vista requirements with only minor upgrades.

The amount of folks that this will add up to a negligable amount. (though we'll no doubt hear from them here shortly)

1. It's 9yrs old and obsolete as all heck.
2. It's insecure.
3. It's unstable.
4. It is no longer support.

and I'm sure the list goes on but that's all I'm going to take the time to list.

Because most people with Win98 on their current machines are probably having major issues with those machines by now anyway, given the systems' age. If they don't inherit someone else's castoff WinXP machine, they'll be upgrading en toto in another year or two anyway.

I would be surprised if there were

ME Fewt.

ME released sometime in the seventies.

shhhh..

heh

LOL

Support for Windows98 has ended. I doubt that any of the computers still running Win9x are upgradeable to Vista.

Nope not at all. Users of Windows 98 must purchase the full copy of Windows Vista.

lol Windows 2000 Pro and 2003 server users have learned long ago there is ZERO reason to upgrade to XP or Vista. 2000 is just fine. No reason to subject yourself to XP or vista Resource hog hell... A business environment does not need anything outside of a terminal 2000 desktop in most cases, and With windows 2000 Pro its quite simply perfection... Works on everything Runs everything of a business nature And even all the games if you want that too.. and is 100% backwards compatible...

So at this point. I say Vista? Who the heck cares anyway. let them do it and pay for it with the customer base saying WTF? while we sit back and laugh our butts off at the millions wasting their precious resources trying to play catchup for no reason, on needless upgrades...

Best advise I give every MS business partner. if it isn't broke don't try to fix it...

In other words. Ignore vista and XP. you don't need it. Now if you are starting out new and getting new equipment. Sure why the heck not.. but don't go out of your way and waste your time otherwise...

Like most corporate commercial software, the release of new versions as swifly and regularly as possible is required to keep the dollars rolling in, the profits going up and up, and therefore the shareholders of the company getting fatter and fatter. It's all about money.

OK, an OS is more difficuly to update "swiftly and regularly" (at least for MS it seems), but the princliple is the same. New versions may or may not have great new features as their selling points - if they do all the better - but it is not +required+ as people will keep buying the new versions anyway when you're MS.

Of course, even worse is that a lot of software without the complexity of an OS runs out of great new feature ideas with all the constant new releases... so what do you get? Software bloat. That is the one and only real reason (beyond lazy coding) that the phenomenom even exists, and why it does not generally with freeware.

Of course, the more cynical could suspect another reason for the bloat and heavier and heavier footprints of commercial software. Are the software houses and the hardware companies really so disinterested in each other's interests when their products complement each other?

I think not. I'm sure that bloated software that makes even the latest and greatest hardware slow down pleases the hardware companies no end - as it keeps everyone buying hardware upgrades as well every year.

Black helicopters anybody?

I prefer the purple one's with orange polka-dots.

Sadly, I've not seen one since my first year in college. ;)

(It was piloted by a technicolor elephant)

They're black, they're brown
They're up, they're down
They're in, they're out
They're all about
They're far, they're near
They're gone, they're here

heh

Woah...flashback.

I actually had to put that in for the kids last night. (Just so I could see the technicolor elephants again)

So, do you have kids, or should it disturb me that you are so familliar with it...?

I have 3. ;-)

You are welcome to be disturbed though..

heh

3 little fewts running around...

YEah, color me disturbed. :p

Didja ever make that Betanews comments app?

Hrmph, nope. One of these days I'll start working on it.