If the EU wanted open source code, they should have just used Linux.

Bull crap, what right does the EU have to even fine microsoft. NONE.

every right. microsoft deserves to die....

If Microsoft wants to do business in the EU, then they have to comply with EU regulations. It's Microsoft's choice.

Bad for M$, good for the rest of the world; who cares about M$ then.

regardless, it's all about preference and what you grew up with anyway. I seriously doubt anyone here has ever ever ever been 'forced' to do something by a software company simply because they dont have a product bundled, or do for that matter. nobody here has been 'forced' to use a specific product, and nobody here is really affected for the >most everything> for free anyway....

I think if people wanna use windows let'm, I honestly enjoy a larger gap between the technical expertise of a regular user and a computer tech. The more the OS lets you make things happen in a snap, w/o technical know-how, the more and more us 'computer guys' have to shift our job responsibilities to other things.

for example: in the distant past I got paid to help people install drivers and software and such. It was extremely easy for me, but not for others. And yes i did the advanced stuff too, but the thing is, it gave me as an IT person a job, and more value. Whereas the closer that computers come to not needing technical know-how, the less IT-related jobs will be valued,needed, or defined the same way (we'll have to find other ways to be valuable...things that aren't supersuper easy).

Windows crashes? good, let'm crash. In my opinion I think businesses should convert to linux not because it's any better, but to put IT people on top again, so that your local IT department has more job positions available because less and less users will know how to probe hardware, install drivers, compile their own source, etc; that technological gap will reopen and geeks can be geeks once again, w/o realizing that everyone and their grandma can now setup networks and install their own software that you got paid 80$/hr to do 3-6yrs ago.

Easier to use software = narrowing down the niche that is IT
by all means make it more powerful and capable, but please up the value/salaries for those who major in this field.

the newer and more "user-friendly, hands-off" windows has become, the less companies value their IT staff, because the desk-clerk in front can perform the same tasks, reducing the need for no more than just 1-2 guys in IT.

unless you're in a huuge company, gone are the days where we had an "IT Team"...and in a lot of cases here locally..that thing called a "co-worker". If you're IT, you're it, everyone else works in a different department, you either have 1 dude working with you or nobody at all, cuz employers see that...really anyone can do what you do with windows, but they just need someone to fill the space when nobody else has time to troubleshoot. Because of this fact here where I live, I go to so many places that have networks that're shabby, barely running, make me wanna help them out out of pity..because they think they know what they're doing, when really the NEED at least 1 IT guy, or a larger team...anyway... blah, rant ended

although I ramble and maybe repeat myself over and over, forgive me I'm tired ^_^, u get the point.

So you are upset, because what you went to school to learn, a 10year old and his grandmother can do it in 5 minutes withou even looking at the setup PDF. HMMM, and we should switch to a network and software where you need to hire people to work on them because they don't function correctly with other computers and parts; and need constant attention by some overrated IT guy that spends more time looking at Porn while at work and blocking others from doing it while at work. Sounds like someone didn't think through his career choice.

Sounds like you need to adapt to those changes.

Windows is bad, OSX is good. Now go away.

Haha, that's why Apple has such a massive market share (at less than 0.2 percent). Idiot...

i hear jesus is good these days ... should i invest in him?

Purity is obscurity.

umm. probably true, but they are too hard to compare, and plus, that only in features, i wouldnt say that if i were you... anywhere, it will most likely cause flame wars.

I agree, linux has grown to be a great product, its the same with many open-source programs. Although i doubt a microsoft os will ever become open source I hope that they will reduce there price. I would be more happy to go out and pay for their product at a suitable price as oppossed to a warez version.

What do you think is "suitable?" A term that is ambiguous.

I don't think they are offering their product at a high cost, but one that reflects what you are getting with it. You are getting more than an operating system with the product. In a sense, you get everything(general user) you need from the get go. There is no need to purchase any other software from a basic install. In fact, with any other device you may want or need(98%), you can plug into it and Windows will install a driver/software with minimal input and knowledge from the user.

For updates, just connect to the Internet and download them for free. If you don't want them, then just don't download them. Nothing forced upon you. And easy to find, may I add. I like the ability to go to a site and get updates where they are authenticated and my OS is verified. It is easy to apply patches effortlessly.

When hooking into a business environment, there isn't any need for some super technical data needed in order to connect or setup. With just a few changes on the PC and the bulk of changes made on the server, you are up and running.

At the price they are offering 99-299, I think that is a super price. Sure they could strip it down to the bare minimum and just offer the OS, but isn't that what users complained about since Windows 3.1? They have been expanding and expanding it ever since and people are still complaining on what they do offer and what they don't. The shelf-life of the OS is consistent with its' price.

I laugh. In fact, if I am installing a device into a PC for the first time, if MS has a driver and the thing works, I will not put in the Disc from the manufacturer. Because, that is when most problems start. Isn't that what we end up troubleshooting half the time anyway? Others drivers/software that is either outdated/incompatible/poorly written, and can we go on...

So, if you stop and look at what you actually get with this "OS", you should be appreciative of their efforts and design. We need this type of design in our society and that is why they are on top. And look at how the others are following in their footsteps. Though you may not like how he/they(because it is more than GATES) got to the top, they are there for good reason.

I think, that it all comes down to the arrogant/self-righteous/self-centered/conservative(extreem)/give-me-free(warez) thinking of many. Many Americans think they should get everything for nothing. (I am an American) The younger they are, the more selfish and idealistic they are. We are destroying ourselves from within. (Lazy)I would have to bet, that the main reason for your love of LINUX is because it is was free, or you didn't pay a whole lot for it. But you cannot compare the two(OS) as even being equal when they don't offer the same benefits to the user.

As Linux gains ground from tech users, and become more user friendly to the general consumer, it will have a different look and price as well - and they should. (And I am not saying that it insn't a good product) I think the efforts of HP and MAC will greatly help this effort, but they are going to be going through many changes as well as headaches as they progress - and this will largely depend upon the general population. I don't see a great demand for it here in the US and possibly why HP is starting their efforts in another country.

IMO

I dont understand what the USA or EURO or ASIA or any country's anatomy has anything to do with the topic above?

I believe that the company in reference to the above should request to view the source code. If you think back to Windows Millenium came out, if they had released the source code, then people would had realize all the problems it had BEFORE loads of companies decided to purchase it for desktops/laptops and lost a smack load of money.

Another example of releasing the source code, look at Linux and how it has grown to be a great product everytime. More people contribute to it making it more efficient.

That's just my opinion on it.

First off, only developers will have any interested in the source code. From a business stand-point, looking at the source code will be worthless, even with engineers who understand the code. Basically it's designed to allow developers a closer look at how Microsoft does certain things (i.e. certain networking technologies, UI development, etc.) so that they can make their products interact with Windows better.

On a side note, any company who purchased ME for their systems deserve what they got because ME was never designed for the business in mind. That's what Windows NT 4.0 and Windows 2000 were for.

Honestly, Linux isn't that great. It is still clumsy and it has its own share of bugs as well. Give me a choice between Linux and Windows, I'd still pick Windows any day. I use Linux for my server only because I can't afford Windows Server 2003.

I thought I felt the world shift on its axis today.

God we Europeans have got balls. Unlike you pansies in the U.S.A. Our euro kicks the greenback's ass.You are so useless Levis are manufactured in Estonia .Maytag somewhere in China. Toyota has overtaken G.M as the number 1 automaker. Soon, Vista's code will be available in coffee shops in San Marino. lol.
the U.S.A is burnt toast . In Italy we witnessed the end of the Roman Empire. NOw we gleefully watch as the American Empire disintegrates and with it Microsoft.lol

"God we Europeans have got balls. Unlike you pansies in the U.S.A. Our euro kicks the greenback's ass.You are so useless Levis are manufactured in Estonia"

lmfao - Too bloody true!

I have to wonder: is this being sentient?

"God we Europeans have got balls."

Does God hear you better when you post on betanews comments section? Why talk to Him here? Heck why tell Him since He already knows?

Back to subject, you can't judge a country by listening to the media or (most of) the fools who call themselves reporters. CBS, ABC, NBC, and Fox News do not make up America, only a handful. Don't judge us.

'euros' and 'greenbacks' are off topic, thus irrelevant. I'm sure you guys make better tea too but that is beside the point. Quit generalizing.

Ha ha ha! The US is the ONLY nation in the world that has the biological weapons to destroy your entire country in 2 weeks without you even being able to know about it until it's too late, and you talk about the Empire falling... Whatever it takes to keep you happy, I guess. Just don't forget on your deathbed to admit to all your children and grandchildren what a stupid mistake you've made for not immigrating to the USA when you were young and strong so they could all have lived a prosperous life instead of that lame third-world lifestyle you've been brainwashed to believe is heaven... Antiaging drugs to keep a 150 year old feel like a 50 year old in Italy? Well we all know what nation will be able to afford it, now don't we. Ciao Banbino and thanks for the Pizza.

Well, that was lame. I'm from the UK, and I don't support your comments at all. You know what I think? The Europeans don't have brains. Fair better? This entire legal case is pathetic, and not at all fair. If the EU tried to sue apple for forcing certain hardware usage, etc, then I'd say they're trying to improve things.

Otherwise, it seems like they're just cash strapped, too stupid to work out what they're doing, and fail to listen to any of the defence MS put up which - if the judge had half a brain - should probably win them the arguement/appeal.

And on an unreleated note, the entire world works as a whole. The funny thing is, you mention Toyata which is a Japanese company, and China also. What the hell does that have to do with the EU? Nothing. It's not like UK car companies are doing great, is it? It's the Japanese who are really kicking ass.

The world would be a lot better if the likes of your kind stopped finding reasons to dislike/discredit other countries and realize the entire world has worked together to achieve something great. We have a lot to thank the US for, and other countries. Other countries have stuff to thank us for.

It is true. The products are made in another country. But, where does the profits for the sales go? Not Estonia, I can assure you.

Oh come on, don't do that...a "ME COUNTRE BETTER THAN YORS, HE, HA, HA, HE" will take you nowhere fast. It is all pointless arguing.

Come to think of it Betanews comment threads are nothing but pointless arguing--great. Alright, say whatever you want then ;)

Speaking as an American, you are an idiot. I'm embarrased that fools like you are always going off on stupid hate rants and making us look bad. Please do us and all the world a favor and STFU.

You know you can always go outside and pound salt. :-)

You should do all your fellow "Europeans who have balls" a favor and kill yourself. Or grow a pair yourself, come to the USA, campaign your thoughts, and get your a** kicked every which way by us "pansie" Americans. Funny, wasn't it America that developed, funded, and produced the internet that you're posting your dumba** comments on today? You're right though, our "empire" is definitely disintegrating. Die.

Ya and here is the EU trying to ruin it.

Either this is a poor attempt at trolling or a sign of even poorer reasoning. Either way, it's almost par for the course in these comments lately...

yeah that's why we have "super-power" stapled to our foreheads ... because we're pansies.

you haven't won any major victory with this ... ms is going to release less than 1% of its source code. you just wait.

our physical exports haven't been our strong point in 50 years. further your argument that the EU kicks a** doesn't actually list any reasons why the EU kicks ass. you just went on to list a bunch of products made in other countires outside of the US and the EU.

not even sure why i dignified you with a response.

see a psychiatrist and have him prescribe some antidepressant or better yet since you appear to be delusional an antipsychotic

super power who is unable to defeat the Iraqi insurgents

got that right and the reviews of software don't even get a break from it cause all the 10-12 year old are having flame wars in there too.

could you do any better? um...... no... shutup

"This evening's language leaves open the possibility that the EC could characterize, about three weeks from now, Microsoft's bold move as a face-saving stunt. What the Commission is looking for, today's main paragraph appears to say, is the documentation for the source code, implying that source code does not necessarily document itself." --THWG

Oh boy...yep MS should just pull out now. Those EU guys will just find another way to 'fine' them again. Who's to say that when they comply the EU will leave them alone anyway?

Either way, I have a feeling February 15th will not mark the end of this EU vs. Microsoft fiasco...

The EU should pound salt.

Microsoft should just say "fine, uninstall everything you got because you aint getting any code"

Funny how people in Europe think they can just toss orders around. If you don't like the software don't use it. Don't make the owner of the software change it for you because you're a whiner group of stupid idiots at the EU.

Good post! It's scary I agree with you. Is the "sky falling"?

"Microsoft should just say "fine, uninstall everything you got because you aint getting any code"

Great - what the f*ck do we care?? We'll just use OSX. [shrugs]

What an idiot. Do you really think Microsoft are as thick as you???

"Great - what the f*ck do we care?" Lemme see...about 90% of EU uses it so maybe 90% cares?

Your use of swear words show that you have no brains. Nice job potty mouth.

Potty mouth? Now that's funny. Who are you - my grandmother?

You both seem to have missed the point. The reason why Microsoft have complied you idiots two, is that they would rather comply and sell their products than defy the EU and pack up their bags with their tails beetween their legs. It's all about the dollar in case you hadn't noticed and I'm pretty damn sure that they would rather sell Windows under restrictions allbeit grudgingly, than not sell Windows at all when it's perfectly obvious that if 90% of people in the EU couldn't use Windows - there is an alternative and they would use OSX! Just how thick are you people?????

everyone has their breaking point. if you think ms is going to open 100% of their source code just to keep selling in europe you're dead wrong.

let us know when osx has a 10% market share. then maybe somebody will listen.

You are right - everyone does have their breaking point and at some point Microsft would say stuff it if the price that was being asked of them was too high. But it's obvious that the price isn't too high of what's being asked of them now - so it's a moot point really.

Let me say again - the reason they have complied is that it's better to release a little bit of source code and make a profit, than pack up and make no profit. What part of that is hard to understand? Whether that's a good thing or a bad thing is a different arguement. What's done is done etc.

i'm really suprised that there's not been an instance by now where someone deep within MS that's developing for them and working directly with the REAL source tree hasn't leaked it all yet.

as for the article, looks more like starving reporters looking for juicy info, and exagerating its taste once again.

Honestly, w/o the "Microsoft Opens Windows Source Code" title, I wouldn't have read the article, or maybe would've skimmed over it...if the title were truly accurate to the content.

Reminds me of my email inbox: FREE MONEY! CLICK HERE!

"FREE MONEY! CLICK HERE!"

lol i thought the same thing lol

Read past the bias. Here is an almost contradictory view of MS's decision: http://www.tgdaily.com/2...ome_windows_source_code/

Yep, so is Microsoft saying "in your face" to EU or are they stalling again? I find it interesting that the same news is reported in two almost contradictory ways. Why can't we just report the news?

Ok, back to topic...IN MY OPINION: EU never asked MS to open its source code for anything, it wanted open documentation regarding its code. MS opening code is the exact opposite that EU expected from MS, which I believe is exactly why MS did it. I believe MS is moving more towards open-source and have thought so for the past six months or so after their announcements of the new MS Office features and document structure.

EU can't complain--MS will exceed its demands by opening *some* of Windows Server 2003's source code (so the question is--does MS have the right to interpret what code is and is not needed to meet the specific demands?). I think MS is eventually changing to open-source so they can be the best at it. I believe they will be the best. In five (maybe ten) years FireFox will be just as dead as Netscape. MS has more than the manpower and combined with being open-sourced they will gain a BIGGER monopoly. All those fools at the EU are doing is screwing consumers. They don't care--they got the free money. Man maybe america should learn how to fine Japanese companies, we'd make a fortune :)

I apologise for my far-fetched opinion but I'm getting reassured every week of my initial thoughts 6 months ago, and this makes me believe it all the more. MS will open-source, Apple will almost be forced to do so, but in the end MS will win because of its strength in numbers.

The only thing EU can do to stop MS is LET THEM MAKE MISTAKES. That way MS'll screw up and lose employees, and losing employees is one of the only realistic means of crippling a company as huge as MS.

FireFox was the best thing for MS in a way, now they are catcking up to where they should be instead of lagging behind. Lol, if the FF fanboys wouldnt have been so adamant about how great they are, MS would have ignored them longer, allowing FireFox to win the war and change MS'es future and perhaps have effects reaching many many years down the road. I sure am glad the FF Fanboys exist, you saved microsoft (liking firefox != fanboy, I'm refering to the die-hard mouth-always-open type folks, like that kid they call the "FireFox CEO" ;)

I'm off topic now, I'll try not to edit this much more...

Microsoft already has a library full of extensive documentation pertaning to the development of apps for Windows. that the EU doesnt accept it, well thats their problem. But with the windows APIs and SDKs you have hundreds of thousands of pages explaining how to create good performing applications for windows.

I have a radically different view of the future in 5-10 years. No, I'm not a Firefox/Mac/Linux-head so I won't predict they will dominate every set-top box, car, and refrigerator in America. They may, but nobody really cares about those markets at this point. Anyway I believe in the next few years MS will strictly enforce their copyrights by simultaneously lowering the price tremendously (perhaps by 70%), while making sure every single user of their product is a paying user. This will be relatively easily accomplished with the aid of encryption chips which will be sold on 99% of motherboards made. There will be NO way to circumvent it. The myth that "everything is crackable" is, well, a myth. If it was true that everything is crackable you'd hear every Monday and Wednesday about banks being hacked and international armies communications tapped. It ain't that easy as cracking a shareware that has 2, 3 maybe even 50 security checks in the code...

So: Microsoft can become a richer company by LOSING their monopoly. They can have only 40% of the market but sell more software to those 90% of currently illegitimate users. They can also partner with other currently-freeware-shareware authors whose apps are now being raped by cracks. MS can make it a lot easier for developers tiny and huge to protect their copyright and get a cut of their sales, for simplifying the process (of protecting, perhaps also marketing and selling the app) or just for allowing them to program for Windows - they can do that once they lose monopoly status, you see...

I doubt MS will become open-source, unless they can maximize their profits that way and they still control the direction of their OS development with no clones with cash-making-features removed from it. In other words - I don't think it's in MS's best interest to do that for the next 10 years. Could happen in 30 years maybe, as Bill Gates vowed to distribute his wealth back to the world before he dies (and leave his kids only 10million bucks or something). Not holding my breath on him actually fulfilling that promise. ;)

I can understand where your coming from. Only one point you make that I want to bring up, you said: "If it was true that everything is crackable you'd hear every Monday and Wednesday about banks being hacked and international armies communications tapped."

Not necessarily. Some former employees of major banks have spoken out about how their bank is broken into at least twice a month or so. If banks let the press get ahold of that info, nobody would want to trust that bank anymore. That's the problem. They get attacked all the time.

Your point may still be true, however. HARDWARE is the only true way to make something secure from software, that much can be said. Software solutions are not a permanent solution--humans make it, humans can break it. That's my opinion though, and I've given enough of that already on this forum...

I mostly agree with you, but the reality is that the majority of people pretending to be "developers" are little more than cut-n-paste coders who never learn fundamental concepts. They can never put the pieces of a solution together based on documentation which uses terminology that they don't understand. I don't have to worry about offending this type of "developer" because absolutely none of them are interested in growing their technical knowledge except when paid to do so, so they never read forum/blog sites unless specifically assigned to do research which requires it.

Check out the MSDN newsgroup for all the noobs who can't figure out how to search the docs. How about the ones who can't even get the docs installed? They post rants as if the doc viewer is simply broken and couldn't possibly be working for anyone else on the planet. Check out the occasional posts like "I want to write a email server. What command do I use?" or "I wrote program and it pop up the error. Help!!!"

I am NOT saying that all developers in the EU are like this. I am sure there are some sharp developers who have some legitimate complaints about the docs. Remember that laws and contracts written by governments are FREQUENTLY found later to be ambiguous and contradictory. There will ALWAYS be technical, legal, medical, religious, etc. docs in the world which fail to answer every question for every audience in every situation. The question in this case ought to be whether Microsoft's docs are "reasonably" clear and complete for the intended purpose of interoperability. Everything else is just whining and political posturing.

Point well taken, thanks. But yeah, MS has seen the light and in Vista they'll support some hardware encryption chip technology which used to be called Palladium. It's possible people will refuse to swallow that pill, though, since it's gonna make them pay more money for what they currently kinda steal (movies, music, software, ebooks) but it might just HAVE to happen.

See once you have that chip on vast majority of PCs (or other hardware media player), the media content makers may force you to use that chip if you wanna enjoy their content - simple as that. Doesn't matter if you have an OS or player that can play them. They can FORCE you to use one, or give up on using their content. Naturally they won't care to lose those customers who insist on not using their encryption chip because it'd mean most of them really wanna steal the content.

Perhaps the only weapon the poor will have in order to maintain "adequately cultured" in such a legally-enforced world is some law which will force all content makers to offer borrowable (digital/physical) copies of everything they make with some restrictions. A related law will make sure that the cultural-commodity that is music/movies will be fairly priced according to majority opinion.

Currently $1/song for unlimited-play seems "fair" to most people including myself. I would however like a cheaper alternative of pay-per-play, say 1c so I can hear so-so songs once in a blue moon without paying full price for that "less than great" piece.

Shafuyz - Good post there... I concur with what you say and see it in the works already. Has been for longer than the 6 months though. It's been in the public working since they started the validation of the OS updates.

Enough of the bashing from everyone else. Thats just gets everyone aflame and angry anyhow. Theres enough "Stupid Genes" in the world already so lets not contibute anymore

"A reference license would be given to any interested developer so they may use the source code to help their products work better with Windows; however, copying of the source code would be prohibited."

I can't really find a way to disagree with this. Hopefully it will make it easier for developers AND protect Microsoft from the accusation that their products crash all of the time. Frequently, the crashes are caused by software that was not written to "play nice" with Windows. This should help that situation. If it does, the benefits will be felt by Microsoft, developers and customers. It will be interesting to see how it all comes out.

GNUMAN is right. MSFT has done a lot of damage, but look at MSFT itself, they have prevailed for such a long time and crushed the mere thought of any other Office App or Desktop OS from the minds of common man.

I think the loss of revenue|jobs|innovation by other companies does not come anything close to 497 million Euros.

MSFT needs EU and other countries, as the population at those locations are much much more than the population in US. Comit, if you know the statistics, there are more computer savvy people outside US than within, so MSFT needs to compete in those markets.

If this stipulation was brought against MSFT 5 to 8 years ago, we would have been a very different world, when it comes to desktop OS or Office apps.

-GGR

MSFT done alot of damage. GIVE ME A BREAK. The world owes MS alot. Remember that board meeting back in the 80s? Were IBM was the big kahuna and little ol Bill Gates and MS went over to offer the MS-DOS? Well little old Bill Gates was the one who saw the future in Software, unlike IBM who though Hardware was the future.

Anyways, other OSs have had a chance, but none have been able to compete with MS. APPLE tried, and FAILED, OS/2*gag* failed, Linux is trying but there is no light at the end of the tunnel.

Yes Microsoft controls 90% or so of the desktop market, BUT good GOD how bad would it be if there were 5-6 OSs running around. People would have to buy a few of them so that software could be compatible. Imagine DRIVERS! What a mess that would be.

Thanks to Microsoft, the software developers and hardware devs, dont need to worry about making drivers, or compiling code for 6 differnt OSs, they only need to make it for 1. For me as a software developer is a huge relief.

Bash Microsoft all you want, but at the end of the day, thanks to their vision and efforts we enjoy alot of what we have today in the digital world.

"Anyways, other OSs have had a chance, but none have been able to compete with MS. APPLE tried, and FAILED, OS/2*gag* failed, Linux is trying but there is no light at the end of the tunnel."

I agree with most of this. I, however, do see Linux getting larger and being used more and more everyday. Linux is far from where MS is today, but they are getting better.

Yes I'll give credit to Microsoft that DirectX was an immense step forward when it came to gaming. OpenGL has gone quite far in itself as well.

As far as drivers are concerned, I don't think companies like the WHQL where they say get the drivers certified or we won't install.

Apple did not fail. If you shall recall Bill Gates stole DOS and the idea of windows and GUI.

There is not a problem if more than 1 OS existed. Linux is getting more popular because it is more secure. Windows is What You See Is What You Get operating system.

There are no problems with the majority of hardware in Linux. Linux runs on different architectures while Windows cannot. You won't see anyone trying to run windows on an ipod.

If gaming for PCs did not get popular hardware would not advance the way it did for the past 5 years. If you would exlcude gaming from any OS, Windows would not be as popular.

You're a software developer, its quite pathetic how 1 track minded you are when it comes to computers. The only thing that is keeping Apple down on PC's is Jobs' stupidity to make its own computers with Intel.

Believe me when it comes to user friendliness and security Apple kills Windows hands down. Then again OS X is based on BSD which is a derivate of Unix.

Windows is becoming the lowest common denominator. Everything is compatible with windows crap, but windows doesn't understand anything else.

I thought OS/2 supported windows apps and a dozen other types?

Aha. Ok first off Gates didnt steal DOS, he bought the OS from a Seattle company, and later on hired the programmer that created DOS. Also the OS he bought was greatly changed and improved to meet IBMs requirements.

Only reason Linux is more secure, its because it is at the bottom of the food chain. NO ONE is writting exploits for it cause there is not a large enough target audience.

The only reason Linux can run on what u call differnt architectures is because Linux is open source. MS is not gona speed time and money trying to get Windows to run on IPOD whats the use? however there are some devs out there that get a kick out of getting linux to run on ipod.

Wait a second you are claiming the reason that windows is so popular, its because of GAMING?!?!?! WTH have you been smoking? Not everyone games on their PCs. Gaming is not the reason for MS success. MS success comes from office applications first ofall. Secondly they have the only widely available PC OS. Back in the early 90s most of the OSs in the market were clunky and very tedious to get working. Windows 3.14 and the Mac was a step forward, however on the PC side windows still relied on DOS. Once Windows 95 came out that was the BOOm. Lots of user friendlyness as far as the install procedure ect and a very appeling visual style. Add to that the fact that the only other viable OS in the market was Apple OSs, which entailed buying only apple products hence getting ramed by their step prices, and ppl end up choosing the cheaper PC with Windows.

Ok now to rebut your insult. First of all, why would I bother writting software for Mac? They hardly have a user base. Secondly like I said earlier, sure OSX is secure, BECAUSE HARDLY ANYONE USES IT compared to Windows. The same reason you dont see alot of Apple applications is the same reason you dont see security vulnerabilities, BECAUSE they dont have a big user base, hence the script kiddies have no reason to write hacks/virii for OSX.

Furthermore, alot of the problems that has plagued Windows since its conception, are due to the fact that they are not Apple. They dont drive propietary crap down your throat as far as hardware. With that comes to vulnerability that you must make way for hundreds of thousands of different hardware components to run with your OS, and one of the big holes in security comes from that inform of the driver entry to the system.

I dont know were u get ur information, but you simply cannot get a Windows App and hope to run it on another OS. There are API calls, which are OS specific.

For example. lets say you write a program that says, HELLO WORLD. Pretty simple to write really, however when you look under the hood you are making multiple calls to the Windows API to get your window, set up all the different variables, and write the text.

If it was as easy as you put it, there would be 50 million different OSs in the market.

Can you run Windows apps on a Mac ?no. On Linux? no.

You need to use a shell program that interprets the windows api calls and translates them to the pertaining OS. Its not as easy as it sounds, and when doing this you have yet another program running in the background. From a performance stand point its just not viable.

Cedega seems to be faster than windows XP for games, though I've never seen how it performs on not dual-core stuff.

There's also ReactOS, which is still developing, but attempting to maintain win32 compatibility for drivers and programs. OS/2 supported apps from many different operating systems. Apple's Rosetta cross-compiler maintains high levels of efficiency running PowerPC stuff on IntelMacs.

So...emulation can be done easier today than in the past, with today's hardware. I mean hell, Windows Vista is supposted to emulate OpenGL right? :P

Isn't Windows CE(+Mobile 5.0) supposed to be able to run on anything x86, and a few other architectures? Sure it'd have to be packaged with OS components and drivers, but it is more capable than Windows XP.

>> MS success comes from office applications first ofall.

You're smoking crack. There were many better office applications out there that are still around today.

>> First of all, why would I bother writting software for Mac? They hardly have a user base.

Fool. People that want it simple and like it simple are the ones that pay to have it simple. If they buy a Mac, they'll dish out money for programs.*

*Survey consisted of 30 local people(15 mac, 15 windows users).

Several of these people have already dished out hundreds on dozens of shareware mac programs. I'm a windows user though, and I personally haven't bought any shareware software yet, since I don't need most of it.

Your stance on other OS security is also foolish. Windows is more insecure because of a few key reasons:

-Does not force you to run as a User(fixed in Vista)
-Has hole-filled internet software integrated into the OS to install stuff(IE - Big mistake)
-Microsoft pissed more hackes off with their policies and prices than other companies.

And just so you know, you speak of insults, but you are the one coming off strongest here.

I guess you dont know software history. Microsofts Office applications was their starting point into the software bussiness. It was their selling point. It was why Steve Jobs allowed Microsoft to view the Mac source code initially, because Apple needed Microsoft office apps for their Mac.

Like I said, why would I bother creating an application that will only be exposed to 10 users as opposed to 500 users? There is no reason to spend money developing an app for both platforms when you will probably only break even on the low user side.

You tell me, if you were a hacker would u build a virii or exploit for an OS that has 10 users or one that has 500 users? Alot easier to infect a broader user base.

Well, if you don't want to bother designing an app for those people, then don't. To me though, it's all about your audience. Is 10 paying users better than 500 leechers? Is 10 companies or banks better than 500 people at home?

I suppose if it was strictly 10 or 500, then obviously numbers win. Usually it isn't though, and you also have to consider how many people already have similar software on that platform.

he or she got their infortmation correct. as far back as os/2 warp 3 you could run os/2 native apps, windows 3.1 apps (windows 95 was just new at the time and 3.1 was still the dominant windows version), as well as apps written for *nix. go on ebay and buy an old copy of os/2 warp 3 connect, install it and o.O wow, look theres actually windows 3.1 installed in a seperate area there called "winos2"
most all *nix apps can run under os/.2 as well using the common emxrt libraries that allow unix calls in os/2.

later - there was a project - I cant recall the name of it, that converted windows 32 bit programs to os/2 native that met with limited success.

afaik, there is wine for linux that allows you to run windows in it or at least emulate running windows there so you could indeed install windows apps there :)

from a performance standpoint, you are used to dealing with windows, a task switching (very well done btw) single user os for the most part. OS/2 and linux are multitasking multi threaded multi user os's. therein lies the true power of the other os's

Umm I work at a bank, and design software specifically for a bank. All they use here is Microsoft products. Volume License hehe.

Tell me what bank uses OSX please, heck tell me what companies besides graphic design and video editing related that use apple for their users.

For example here at the bank I work at, the issue of Linux for example has come up, however the support issue always arises, as well as education of employees. Basically this institution and I am sure as others doesnt see any cost effectivness in switching to Linux. Too much cost re eductating the user base to a new OS, aswell as the cost of migrating the over 6000 desktops and 300 servers.

Ouch. Yeah, educating probably doesn't make it worth it. Most people won't use linux *well* anyway, even after you fork out the cash.

Alright, if they use MS products over linux, then case closed.

For OSX I was strictly referring to home users. I have heard there's an "OSX for servers" or something, but I don't know anything about it. I'd probably use a sun server before that, despite also knowing nothing about those. :P

Ok first.. PEOPLE READ THE Article!!!

Now with that out of the way, was I the only one that saw LICENSE in this article.

Yes MS will license the source code to a 3rd party. I am pretty sure to get the said license you will have to forfeit your children to be able to look at the source code and then it will probably be just header files hehe. But seriously im pretty sure that it will be very LIMITED source code, hand picked, and rewritten in a very unconventional manner, which would take any expert a long time to understand.

Anyhow, I am pretty damn sure that Uncle Bill is doing this for a greater reason, and that he has something under his sleeve. MS is not known to bending over for the opposition.

Do you people know how to read? Or even had a computer for more than a year? I mean look at you people bashing EU and saying if I were MSFT I wouldn't do this.

Do you know how many companies they put out of business? They only released the source code for the networking internals which is something that could be improved. Open source does not cause security problems.

Think of how many exploits would have been fixed if source code for Internet Explorer was open.

Yes they did spend billions and look at who wanted software patents. MSFT who is trying to kill the industry.

Whats next the US Govt putting a ban on Foreign cars because people buy them more than American made cars?

Open source may not cause security problems but it is perfectly legal in any country to create a completely closed source OS and release only the information about the OS people need to make their apps and hardware work.

Microsoft has had plenty of detailed technical developer information available about Windows for years. The EU just thinks Microsoft should go a step further and open up the source code.

I woulda loved to see MS just pull out of EU. I think they need microsoft more than MS needs them :P

This is stupid! Microsoft should really reconsider this before releasing its source code. We have been talking about this on www.fits.cc and think it is a very negitive move for both Microsoft and any Windows users as this will decrease security of the OS.

Nice job with the spam there.

So instead of the usual open source zealots bashing Microsoft (where are they right now?), we have a bunch of idiots bashing the EU for having forced Microsoft's hand.

It just boggles the mind.

I must add that the article, title in particular, is SO sensationalist, that it really was to be expected. Oh well, that's BetaNews. http://www.theregister.c...t_opens_sourcecode_abit/

Yeah, but evidently you still read BN nontheless. God I love all those "Microsoft is s*** but I'm forced to use it" complainers. Not saying you are one of them, but you're kin-ly related. ;)

I think this is complete BS. I don't see why M$ doesn't just stop selling their products in Europe, They don't HAVE to use Windows...Let them use Linux or mac, HAVE FUN! :)

*gasp*

Is it possible I actually agree with you? lol

If I am MSFT, I would simply pull the operations from EU. MSFT spents billions and almost 2 decades on developing Windows, and now EU just want to get it for free? If you want an OS, develop one themselves instead of stealing. Yes, they are stealing because theyare pointing a gun in someone else head and "ask them to donate" to their bank account.

I love how the EU thinks it can just destroy capitalism when it gets bored.

I don't understand how the EU is able to control a company that is in the US. If they don't like MS then they should just ban them. And as one pointed out, they are stealing from MS making them give something to them for free after all the hard work MS has done. EU is just a bunch of hoodlums stealing from MS. If I told the pizza delivery guy that he had to pay me money and to give me the ingredients to make the pizza for free, I would go to jail for robbery. How is the EU getting away with this?

It would be like if you told it to the manager because you're allergic to something in it, and their Pizza place is expansive and services millions of people.

I dislike the source code potentially getting out, but I think a No-IE windows would be sweet.

I put it that way only because MS goes to EU not EU to MS, but you got my point.

Without IE, how would you download other software?

There's something called the File Transfer Protocol they can use for that...but since Vista may eliminate that DOS command prompt too, well--

EU is not going to get away with it. All MS needs to do is show they've made a best effort to comply in some SENSIBLE MANNER, according to _US_STANDARDS_ and then if EU doesn't like it and starts fining AN ULTRA AMERICAN ULTRA CAPITALISTIC COMPANY just because the EU wants MS to subsidize MS's future replacement in that region -- well this is what MS can do and morally will be able to attain: go to the US Goverment/Supreme Court and FORCE the "fine" money BACK from the EU, or if EU totally bans MS from that region - get the Supreme Court to fine the EU through the international bank or individually from every country who bans MS, the ultimate American dream come true. Alternatively, this is, in fact, a very good reason for a world war (of course after exhausting all political means). Bottom line: MS cannot be penalized for its success, as seen by AMERICAN PEOPLE. This has huge ramifications for international business totally irrelevant to Microsoft. EU should understand this, or EU is gonna be devastated financially and possibly physically... Don't fsck with us, EU. We went to Europe for two world wars, clearly you see we won't hesitate to go to a third one if you don't "play nice by the unspoken rules".

No!!!!!

dammit. Now what am I going to use?

Sucks. I hope they at least leave us with that...

I mean for the average user though, they won't know how to manage with that.

Look at it this way, all "newbies" at computers, which is really alot when you think about it, they all use IE because they think it's the only thing around. If you showed them Firefox or Opera or anything, they'd most likely switch to that, they just don't know about it.

If you take away IE and leave the average person with nothing to use to their knowledge, what then? A wasted computer for them.

That's true, but many use IE because they *don't like Firefox's interface*. I consider that stupid - Firefox's interface is extremely customizable - and IE is less secure. If you say "I need IE for my business that uses ActiveX controls", you indicate you are a knowledgible user that understands the risks you are taking.

The average person doesn't realize how exploits work, and that they're using s***ware. Giving them Firefox over IE would be a blessing to the sheep, since they don't use Windows Update anyway. :P

Well just today, my FF took a crap and lost all of my extensions and my theme. I tell you what, I would rather deal with that than with IE, but I would like to see extensions for Opera so that I can have a functional browser for a change. It seems that they are all just parts of what should be one large working unit, but as it stand today they are all half assed crap.

I have to agree with you there. I'd love a firefox-like interface not made in Java. Mmm...Opera's speed, Firefox's look; wait, that only leaves security.

Ok, Opera's security/stability, Firefox's look/extensions system, Internet Explorer's speed. =)

That'd be just about perfect...unless they literally mashed the source code together. ;)

Edit: Oh, try looking in your \Docs And Settings\ProfileName\Application Data and \Docs And Settings\ProfileName\Local Settings\Application Data dirs. It might be in one of them...somewhere. I know you can change where it looks for profiles(PortableFirefox does it), so it may have spontaniously decided to move the profile directory for some reason.

This is complete stupidity, who do they think they are? NO ONE but Microsoft has the right to view the source code of ANYTHING made by Microsoft. They shouldn't have to pay fines just because people are too stupid to NOT use WMP, IE or whatever else if they don't want to. Here's a thought, remove Internet Explorer from Windows... okay, what are you going to use to download OTHER software now genius? Great job.

I cringe at the thought of what could happen with this, what if the source code "leaks", in other words, someone lets it out. Then the EU would really look stupid and would have to pay fines to MS for once. They really need to get their act together over there, if they want open source, use Linux, else, sit down and shutup.

Firefox.

I agree, the possibility of the source code being leaked is a scary.

yeah whatever dude- pther people have better Software then WMP-
and when i mean other people i mean other countries- but the us. WMP sucks- ill rather have Winamp insted of that s***
when i was in S.korea- they dont use IE nor WMP they use their own things, thats why is good they strippin down MS=

LMAO!

Wow.

Why read the articles when you can just hit post and flame away, right?

Most of his malformed post was to difficult to read anyway.

I'm not a Microsoft fan, but this kind of thing angers me. It's their software, they can do what they like with it - including laddle it with weaknesses provided by WMP and IE (which also provides strenghs if you look at it from a diff angle :P)

Yeah, I agree, not to mention, letting out code that's proprietary, if the EU doesn't take care in handling it, its potentially harmful to Microsoft.

I don't blame them for hedging the code. Its like asking someone to hand over their children to some stranger for a month. Can they really trust they will be kept safe? You HOPE they know what they are doing with the software, but there is always that one person that is corrupt, that may view this as an advantage to "steal" or copy MS code.. and sell it.

There are corrupt politicians everywhere, and MS had no choice but to turn it over, but it wasn't without protest...

I agree. The EU shouldn't have any right to force someone to distribute their source code just because they have a significant part of the market.

I totally agree. I'm interested in seeing how this all turns out... in a way, I almost HOPE something bad happens, and the EU has to compensate Microsoft for damage done to its company.

I think its great, Microsoft have a monopoly on a vast majority of the pc world. Its about time the source code was released, hopefully its one step closer to an open-source product. But i very much doubt it.

This whole thing is realy starting to anoy me, a lot. Not that I like MS much (i still use it though). But how the EU got their big heads to belive that they can force MS to make windows open source is beyond me.
MS made this OS and have the right to do what ever they want with it. I havent heard the EU trying to do this with any other company.
Would they make General Motors to give out blueprints of theyr cars so that people can make better seats for them... no cus you can do it just fine without it.
People have made programs for windows a long time now, and done it just fine without the help from MS. And also in many cases if a company is serious MS will even help them with makeing the program run better with windows.
Also Microsoft spends a lot of resources on makeing windows a very easy OS to make programs for. They ha tons of DLL files that come with XP so that it will work with programs, and they have developed good standardized platforms for makeing databeses for use with windows.
What it all comes down too is that the EU doesnt like MS fighting back at them and not just saying "sure honey".

You don't like the way the product is made, don't buy it! DAMN, people are to stupid to understand this. It isn't like it use to be where there wasn't any software for other platforms.

"Yeah, I agree, not to mention, letting out code that's proprietary, if the EU doesn't take care in handling it, its potentially harmful to Microsoft."

IS harmful, you mean. I personally think there is only one motive EU really has: money. So now they got it, and will continue to find illegality in large companies. Better look out Google--you're next!!!

Absolutely agreed.

Hmm... The article says "and the other was to open the source code of Windows Server networking protocols to third party developers."

So where do you guys see it saying that MS is forced to make ALL Windows open-source? :/ Only networking protocols are mentioned...

as soon as Microsoft release their source, the whole open source community will jump on it, strip it off like crows on a dead animal.

*sigh*

First off, let me say that, both as as an American and a software engineer, I am growing increasingly vexed with the whiney droning of the Europeans touting their 'elitist' status. Pish posh, here's a riddle for you, old boy: Why are there no major British computer manufacturers? The (obvious) answer is because engineers in the UK couldn't figure out how to make computers LEAK OIL!

'Nuff said on that topic. Moving along . . .

If the EU wants to bankroll its agenda, let them find a way to raise capital the old fashioned way; by earning it rather than attempting to extort it under the pretense of ethics. American business (and the American government that is ultimately ‘bought & paid for’ BY American business) will not allow the EU to do anything beyond posturing on this particular issue. And if you're anxiously awaiting Microsoft to bark up source code of any strategic importance, "Don't hold your breath!" Statistically, you stand a better chance of having a 3-some with Halle Berry and Angelina Jolie (yeah, just keep clinging to that hope)

As for all the MS-bashing, this is typical of the hypocrisy exhibited by ABM'ers (or, as they prefer to be called these days, the "open source community")

I pose the question: If Windows is so bad, insecure, evil, clunky, sh*tty, etc . . . WHY in the world are there so many open-source projects dedicated at emulating it??

Grow up, kids. I love BSD and AIX (and I even tolerate HP-UX and Solaris), but Linux is a LONG way from being a serious contender. And even when it does mature it will inevitably suffer FAR MORE security issues than Windows BECAUSE it is 'open' (just as it would be easy to circumvent the security in the most high-tech of bank vaults if someone foolishly left the schematics lying around unguarded)

Can we please put this foolish issue to rest already? If you insist on hating MS for changing the world (not to mention being the ONLY reason that Apple is still financially solvent), then feel free to crawl back into your cave and finish loading Ubuntu onto your kerosene-powered 8086 . . . but give the rest of us here a break and stop flogging the dead horse.

-michael