It is not MS do determine whether they comply. they even were given to chose an independend expert that confirmed non-compliance. They were ordered to provide the information years ago.

"to meet these very aggressive deadlines"

? very aggressive deadlines? When did they have to comply? What corporation passed the deadlines and pissed the authorities with noisy PR action?

Um...your first statement is correct. Hard to tell what you are even saying with the second..."given to chose an independed expert"? Anyways, yes, documenting something that has not been documented will take time, dude. Look at the system32 folder in your windows system and tell me that documenting all that stuff will take less than months if not years!

Karma! MS never actaully paid for how it bundled IE in Windows, and now pretty much owns the net and all its related technologies.

If it weren't for that we couldve had a browser neutral net and uniform security policies.

Thats all I have to say.

"Karma! MS never actaully paid for how it bundled IE in Windows, and now pretty much owns the net and all its related technologies"

Tell me you aren't the one who argued that Firefox uses more standards than IE does the other week. MS does not own the Internet, just as much as Al Gore doesn't own it.

"If it weren't for that we couldve had a browser neutral net and uniform security policies."

You must live in Utopia.

You *want* an Internet monopoly now? You want a uniform browser, meaning one? "Mono"poly?

That's all I have to say.

ouch, thats like around 400 million dollars!!! While I am all for seeing ms get reamed every chance possible (while gates is in command... OOOOO how I hate that gates), I am not THAT vengeful lol. modify the fines EU and put a cap on it please, lest even I, the ms/gates hating rabid dog start to look at you and condemn

While not being a fan or hater of MS, I think it's clear that the EU is not a democratic institution and is more interested in power than doing the right thing. Their attack on MS for WMP is stupid since one can use almost any media player on a windows based system. I, for one,use the player that came with my sound card because it has a feature that WMP doesn't have. One can use any player without even uninstalling WMP so this isn't about MS and WMP. If it was about WMP being restrictive than why not go after Apple which places a lot more restrictions on what programs you can put on their system? Why not go after LInux which is so-so when it comes to media players? This is about power and smacks of the power grab and abuse of power by the Nazis. If I was MS, I would say the hell with it and stop selling Windows in Europe period. Let them use something else. Afterall, the real emerging markets aren't in Europe but Asia.

So you think Microsoft should pull out of Europe, and let all those rich and powerful countries adopt a different operating system?

Way to destroy your monopoly.

To do so would result in a massive increase in the use of alternate operating systems, giving them far more mainstream support, and thus become a real competitor to Microsoft. Microsoft would lose the "compatibility" edge it has had since Windows 3, and again open up a market it has practically sewn up.

While it would seem fantastic that they're making a stand, it would be a stupid business move: costing them market share in a big way. Regardless of the EU's motivations, or the true story behind what's going on, Microsoft has to play ball.

Alot of guessing here. As some already have said, we just don't know the details of this. How can it be required to have 300 engineers to compile a documentation?! Rediculous!
The EU political system is new and tricky. Only time will tell if it will work.
However, EU is alot more into competing under the same conditions than USA. This is why MS is forced to release these documents.
Now MS is really not famous for playing it straight. So now when EC is demanding documents that can seriously undermine MS dominating position over time, I have no doubts MS try their best not to comply. This is why I believe MS have so many working with this.

But, that's just my guess.

The whole thing has been a total farce from the beginning.
The EU obviously can't stand the fact that a foreign company runs the majority of the worlds' systems.

It has naff all to do with that and as an ex-Brit it just makes you look thick by saying that because you should know better. Like I said it has naff all to do with that whatsoever.

While I agreed with the EU going after MS in relation to restrictive practices regarding XP, I think it's taken way too long and it's just farcical now. What the EU should be looking at is whether or not Vista has been opened up to allowing software companies to provide better integration - that's what should be being looked at now. However I expect we'll have to wait until 2013 for the EU to take a look at MS in relation to restrictive practices regarding Vista!

It's good to see the EU has some balls and face M$ unlike the US Goverment did and gave them a slap on the wrist.

Why does it take 300 dedicated engineers to create documentation when I'm sure that there is already documentation on this subject at Microsoft?

I think that the EU is screwing Microsoft too, but come on...

Since when was it the job of American companies to finance the European parliament?

I find it hard to shed a tear for Microsoft when I must validate and verify my activated copy of EX PEE every few days. As far as the fines go, MS should just jack up prices of all products sold in the EU to off set them, they sure jack us users up enough so they should be real good at by now.

There's no need for Microsoft to be over there now. Bill Gates is already making too much money. They should focus on other continents such as Asia. There's still a lot of money to be made. Why be greedy and selfish when you cannot win the war?

Microsoft should just pull out of the EU and be done with this BS. Nothing prevents private individuals, from buying Windows XP on line and shipping it to some place like London or Paris. People will continue to use it (as is) wether these socialists like it or not.

AIRBUS is a goverment owned aircraft corporation. Let them make tgheir owm software too and shut up...

The European Commission is tryng to control the world.!!!

Yes, how dare the EU try to steal world control from the USA, naughty EU, whos a naughty boy...

If this is true, and not more FUD or spin then the fine would absolutely be unreasonable.

You mean you doubt anything said by the guy named Horacio?

That is exactly what I mean, until it's proven otherwise.

I guess it was a bad joke, but cmon man, Shakespeare taught us to believe...

Microsoft taught us to question.

The problem with the European Union is that it is an unelected socialist bureaucracy with no accountability to anyone. They constantly issue arbitrary rules and demand that everyone should obey them. One typical rule was that every pig farmer in Europe must provide his pigs with toys to play with, because otherwise pigs are liable to chew on each others' tails. I think this is the kind of problem that pig farmers should be left to deal with on their own.

In this case, they want to use Windows, because it's obviously the best system, but they resent the fact that it is American and they resent the fact that Microsoft is a money-making business that they don't control.

This whole business is an arbitrary, politically motivated attack, based on envy, greed, and socialist illusions.

You are right BUT you fail to see the fact that Microsoft and Bill Gates are socialists as well. It's just a little discussion between Left parties and supporters, the EU Left Wing wants more money from the socialist Bill Gates, that's it.

bourgeoisdude is right - there isn't enough information being released in this ongoing dispute to take sides unless you're an avowed Microsoft hater/fanboy.

We want a peice of the MS pie, so we will get it :P

It really is getting old seeing that the EU are fining Microsoft again ang again and again. Seems no matter what Microsoft does to satisfy the requirements the EU are not going to be satisfied.

This whole story, as Mumoto so finely stated is "crap" - remove Windows Media Player, provide Protocols documentation - why to either? If the EU and affiliated countries don't like the way Microsoft does business, don't do business with them. The whole EU can go to Linux or whatever else....anything to quit the whining.

you got it backwards there buddy-boy, it's MS that wants to do business in Europe. EU is giving them rules.

Read what I posted buddy-boy: "If the EU and affiliated countries don't like the way Microsoft does business, don't do business with them."

isn't that what the EU is doing?
telling them they can't sell their product as-is, and imposing a fine on them untill they change it.

I guess it depends on how you look at it - personally if I was MS, I'd say forget about it...go elsewhere .. but as you say, they want the business so they have to kiss ass...

Truth is--WE don't know the real story, and we may never know. Microsoft says one thing, and it seems that EU is saying another. Who is right? We can't know for sure, but based on what I know about the EU, IMHO Microsoft is *closer* to the truth than EU. They're probably both lying to some extent, though.

Could I be wrong? Absolutely, though I doubt it :D

Nope, you're probably right. Sounds to me like it goes something like this:

EU: Please provide x+y+z (too broad a request).

MS: Please define x and y and z (too narrow a response).

And the cat and mouse game continues. The fanboys won't like this, but it seems that Microsoft may be avoiding the disclosure by constantly demanding a new definition of terms. However, if the EU makes the request so broad that Microsoft cannot comply without giving away the whole store, that's just as uncooperative.

"WE don't know the real story"

Absolutely which means we have to rely on the reputation of the two entities.

Which is the lesser of two evils, a government or a company convicted of felonies?

Times have changed in redmond for sure, but I'm still leaning towards this being more FUD until proven wrong. (Though I hope I'm proven wrong)

It's more like

"EU: Please provide x+y+z (too broad a request)."

MS: Here is X + Y + Z (our interpretation of your broad request)

EU: That's not good enough

MS: Well then please define x + y + z

EU: If you don't comply in a month we'll fine you again.

The EU is not a government. It is a quango of self appointed bureaucrats that is taking power away from elected governments in countries.
I'm all for European integration, just not for the EU.

you must have a real sad opinion of the court system, if you think they're THAT stupid.

uh...according to what WE HEARD...I'm pretty close to beight right. If YOU believe EU is right, especially without hearing the full story...then you're either ignorant, or just have some strange belief that everybody working at the government is some kind of genious and would never do anything "bad"

Nero's next comment is kind of right on the money. The articles, from what we've all been reading, have all said, "We tried to give them what they wanted, but we can't read their minds" type ordeal. I mean what do they expect?

"We want you to detail your protocols"
... "Ok well this is HTML. That is ...."
"You know what we freaking meant. Stop trying to fool us with that BS. We want MORE!"

... to me that's what it sounds like, anyways. I mean come on. And yeah we kind of do think the court system is at least just a LITTLE corrupt. I mean look at OUR court system, and we only have ONE country ... now look at the EU with all their freaking countries melded horribly into one entity that decided once upon a midnight dreary that they wanted to sue MS for providing a music player in their system.

That's like saying Mandriva is wrong for incorporating whatever music program THEY have, or Mac for including iLife with MANY of their computer purchases. It just doesn't make sense

Not even close. Here is what it's really like:

EC: Where is the trail through the forest?

MS: Here is 12,000 pages with a picture of every leaf on every tree in the forest.

EC: But where is the trail?

MS: Good grief, don't you see how many leaves we documented.

EC: Yes, but where is the trail?

MS: HELP! HELP! they want to steal our Ideas.

EC: Tell us where the trail is or we will fine you.

MS: Let's think about this first, doesn't your bother-in-law need a cushy job?

I see what's going on here...you apparantely have seen exactly what the EU is requesting...can you post that here for all of us to see please?

Then move.

I don't care if Windows included WMP.. it's easily removed anyways.

About revealing stuff.... that's like being the owner of Cola having to reveal the MAGICAL RECIPE to other companies like Pepsi.

That makes no sense so it's crap

I used to think that as well, but I have changed my mind. Since Microsoft is a monolopy, this cannot apply to a soda formula (unless maybe its the only soda in the world or has 95% of the market, etc.) The analogy also really doesn't fit, unless this formula was used to drive out other soda companies as well.

I don't necesarily agree with the efforts of the EU, I do think MS is probably trying to comply minimally with their request, and I do think even Linux users will benefit from MS producing good docs on their protocols (hopefully this includes NTFS and MS Network).

Somone needed to make MS accountable for using their monopoly to put out other businesses, I would have rather had the US government do this, but at least someone is doing something.

Good point.

Which do you belive the Microsoft that says is has worked tirelessly to give the EC everything it has asked for or the one that testified these protocols were trade secrets and were protected from disclosure orders because of IP treaties?

Microsoft could have produced a 150 k file with standard protocol definitions that would have satisifed everyone, instead they ground out a silly multi-thousand page, muli-volume paper document.

Hey Microsoft, try sincerity!

or maybe you cannot clearly see that the eu is just being difficult and avoiding givig microsoft a clear answer, probably because the eu has no idea what it really wants, or is not getting a clear picture of what the companies who complained really want. i think that is more the case, that the companies who are tugging the eu around on a leash cant tell the eu what they really want, or they see that the eu fell for it and are adding more and more stuff to take advantage of the eu's stupidity. or the eu is just screwing with microsoft.

See, as soon as you called him an idiot, it discounted your whole argument and made you sound like nothing but a Microsoft fanboy.

rijp is NOT a role model.

there happy now? and calling him an idiot does not dscount an entire argument, only the part calling him an idiot.

and Microsoft fanboy? not by a long shot.
EU hater? hell yes.

The EC could not have been more clearly specific. Since the judgment came down the requirement has been unchanged. Microsoft was told to document their server network protocols so that other companies can provide the same workgroup server functions that Microsoft offers.

A beautifully formatted data dump is not usable as an implementer's guide. Microsoft knows that, but it thinks it can get away with cheating. But the EC is calling them out, they must provide documentation that is USEFUL.

just threaten to back out of europe and fire all of those employees and end support for all products. Then see what the eu has to say about that.

ummm, ok
blackmail wouldn't be too out of character for MS. might work too. but imagine the MS bashing that would occur then. not to mention, european countries would have no choice but to create their own Windows equivilant. and MS couldn't handle the market loss.

ya, I thought about that, I said *threaten* though...

"european countries would have no choice but to create their own Windows equivilant."

Then why don't they just go ahead and do that if they hate MS so much?

(The answer: (1) It's not that simple or easy and (2) "countries" don't write operating systems - although I suppose the socialist countries in Europe blur that line...)

Or perhaps Microsoft is too scared of half the OECD countries running an OS that isn't their own. It's a good way to destroy their monopoly on the OS market - which is the real reason Microsoft must deal with the EU, and not just say "**** 'em".

"developing technical documentation for the communications protocols"
"continuing to work day and night with over 300 dedicated engineers to create documentation"

little hard to believe.
doubt it took that many people to create the protocols in the first place.
sounds like they're exaggerating (stalling), which is why the EU imposed the daily fine in the first place.

Sound to me like the EU is getting increasingly desperate for money. The EU has no right to fine Microsoft since they have delivered all of the documentation requested by the EU. Of course, the EU probably won't stop until Microsoft opens up all of the Windows source code in detail which would be as illegal as what the EU is doing now.

" they have delivered all of the documentation requested by the EU"

says who?
MS?

Microsoft has been saying that all along. Everytime the EU has requested Microsoft to provide technical details about Windows, Microsoft has provided it on time.

The problem is that every time Microsoft provides the requested technical documentation the EU asks for more just so they can hit Microsoft up to cover their budget shortfalls that the EU themselves caused.

And the burglar repeatedly denies that he broke into your house. We'll just take him at his word and jail you for the false accusation. Cool?

As for the silly budget shortfall accusation; maybe the American goverment should hit Microsoft up for a few billions towards our trillions in debt. Sounds like creative economic policy to me. (sarcasm alert!)

It's probably true, they haven't delivered all the documentation, but the EU has never provided a full spec of what they want.
It's the cycle of: "provide us documents" > "what do you want" > just write standard docs" > "here you go" > "thats not what we want" > "what do you want"......ad infinitum.

"provide us documents" > "what do you want" > just write standard docs" > "here you go"

you really are nieve.
MS didn't get where it did by giving out they're secrets.
why do you think they'd be so forthcoming this time?

"why do you think they'd be so forthcoming this time?"

er...because they are being threatened with multi-million euro fines possibly.

that's nothing compared to what they make by keeping their code secret.
it's almost not worth it for MS to give out any secrets, no matter how much they threaten to fine them.
besides, MS never thought they'd have to pay the fine in the first place. they appealed it.