No one will line up for a Zune. All the real good sheep belong to Apple.

Microsoft rulesssssssssssssssssssssssssss, rotten apple suckssssss

It is truly amazing how MS and windows does indeed seem to command the attention and allegiance of the hackers who seem to have a better understanding and a greater ability to bring to fruitiion code that actually works as designed...

Download the "Winner's List" and wonder why Windows isn't more prominent...

http://www.wintercorp.co.../TopTenWinners_2005.asp

But then, why should the article itself or any of the responders attempt to present a cursory SWOT/TOWS analysis of the market and thus look at the opportunities and threats commesurate with the idea?

Awww Fox..do you realize how lame and boring you are getting. It's doesn't matter what the article is, you always say the same thing to make yourself sound important.
Now maybe in Loony Tunes land you are and god knows we all have strolled into that land but we leave a trail of breadcrumbs so we can find our way back. You seem lost there and as a gesture of goodwill, I am willing to organize a rescue party to go into the stormy beast of loony tunes and rescue you and some others. Just say the word and help is on the way.

Now to put Fox in perspective. he likes to sound intelligent so he will use acronyms and big words but it the same whenever he opens his mouth.

So let's take a peak in loony tunes land and see Fox's reality:
SWOT/TOWS is nothing more than what business people do every day and that is look at your strengths and weaknesses, look for potential opportunities to exploit and assess any threats to your business. Big words for what amounts to business 101.

Now maybe "commesurate" is a real word in loony tunes land but in the real world the word is commensurate.

So, Fox, just give the signal and we will come in and try to rescue you and others.

Sheesh... you are really lame and boring.
Everyone have a good day even those in loony tunes land:)

All right, I couldn't resist stepping into this debate. So here goes. I am going to look at only the business aspect of this and not get into the abyss of which is better:
First thing to do is break this issue down into parts: Gateway, Apple, MS.
1) Gateway- Gateway started opening their "country" stores at a time when the Big Box approach was in vogue so their stores tended to be larger in sq. footage and therefore cost more. The other problem, for the most part, is that while you could go into one of these stores and test a Gateway, you had to order your computer. In other words, Gateway basic approach was to use the stores to increase their mail order business. Needless to say, People want to leave a store with something more than a receipt and this led Gateway into a financial disaster that allowed Acer ( a Taiwan-based company) to buy them at a firesell price.
2) Apple- Apple's approach has been different in 2 ways- 1) they tend to have smaller sq footage and therefore smaller rent and 2) You can actually leave the store with the product. Now, you still have some problem with the brick and mortar approach versus the buying online but this approach is still better than Gateway's approach. The problem that I see looming is that both the music player (IPod) and phone (IPhone) markets are getting very crowded and provide the same quality as Apple's products and I suspect sales in these areas (if they haven't already) to peak this year and then decline. Now because Apple builds their product in china and pays below average wages and their net profit as a % of total sales is around 20% which would make even some oil companies jealous and because they have a solid cash position, they can hold out longer than others. But there is also one other area that they are weak in and that is the Netbook market. Just as the Laptop has surpassed the desktop in sales, I suspect this same thing will happen in the Netbook area. So, their foray into brick and mortar may prove to be a serious blow to their P&L and getting out of leases is expensive without going into bankruptcy.
For Apple P&L, here is the link:
http://money.cnn.com/quo...nancials.html?symb=AAPL
The way to calculate the 20% is take the net profit divide by total sales and multiply by 100.
3) Microsoft- Given the fact that MS makes only software for computers, their store would basically only carry software, Zune, and Xbox. As far as gaming consoles, All companies involved in this area sell their consoles at or below costs and then make profit in the gaming software area. This applies to MS or the Japanese companies . One can immediately see that this type of brick and mortar store would not generate enough revenue to sustain the business model. When you add the competition on MS product from other sources, this decision would spell disaster for MS. Sure they could try canceling the contracts for 3rd party sales but I have a feeling the lawsuits would fly and the only ones that WOULD make money are the attorneys. So, as a stockholder in both apple and MS, I would be strongly opposed to MS moving in this direction. There are some other areas that Ms is involved in that, if they put more R&D money into them would proved to be more profitable. So, as a shareholder I voted a resounding NO on this idea.
I am sure that others may disagree and I respect that. If you do disagree, try avoiding using words like "retard" or "idiot" as they have no effect on me and reflect on your lack of communications skill and not on me. Heck, give me a Thumbs down as that is also meaningless to me. If a person's self-esteem is so tied to getting that Thumbs Up the you know what then you need some serious therapy.
Just my humble opinion.
Everyone have a nice day:)

I like how your business model breaks down well. But my previous point of having customers come in to the store to see everything integrated would be another plus. Tech support was mentioned already. And it keeps the profits from the other retailers. Why would you go to a Ford dealership to buy a Chrysler? Why go to Wal Mart when the Microsoft store is around the block and you can test the games? I think it is all in the marketing of the business. Integrating everything together. Having a 'board meeting' style that can introduce customers to upgrades or better software needs. Plus you may be able to get someone other than a minimum wage shelf stocker to take to you. That has specs and can answer the 'difficult' questions. Whenever I have questions about computers, I have to turn to professionals for answers not the blog fanatic facebook user. So that would be nice.

What is amazing is that your 'business' models all assume 'bob or betty every person'.

Like a business is going to go to the MS store for support.
They would be MUCH better served by dealing with an exstablished VAR who CAN offer a very competitive price as well as best practices configuration and support.

As if folks are going to carry in their computer and say - "oh, this workes slowly..." - also assuming they can spare the down time... That's one hell of a model. Literally.

Oh do you suppose folks walking in saying - "My system (with umpteem products from various sources configured in any number of ways) is doing this or that...but since it is running on Windows and Office is installed...how do I fix that?"

I expect stellar success. MS doesn't support, nor should they, 3rd party apps.

And if you are not taking a class to learn how to use a program, sitting down and 'experiencing', say, Excel or Access, without training or being familiar with it, will do what exactly? Or is it the interface that is supposed to Wow you?

Yup, but then you sugested a Halo or other game room. Hahaha.
They will need to make sure they have places to check your skatebords -as evidently their job is to push products they neither make nor support and which is rather a poor model as we all know you need Windows to play games... but thast is a great strategy to keep folks from abandoning MS to go to platforms that don't have the games.

And COMPETING game consoles should "sell their consoles below cost" in a MS store? Nimrod, the PS3 and Wii COMPETE with a PC and Windows. And an astute strategic marketing plan would have Ford selling Chevy in their showroom too, I guess...

Ever do a SWOT/TOWS analysis?

Following your astute strategic marketing plan, maybe Sony should start PS3 stores...

Oh gawd...

A troll-fest. How cute.

Fatty chucks his slop BS, iTard evangelizes and spams links to people who, even though blind, still at least have enough brains to at least try and be original, and foxfyre finishes it all off with some lovely grandstanding "If any of you were even close to being as smart as I" charade.

It's like a soap opera...only it doesn't waste as much time. Ah, you guys slay me.

Thanks, Angela. Getting them all lined up like that is classic.

Now if Microsoft could only get some folks in *their* lines, eh? I suppose only time will tell.

Until then, let's hear it for the boys. ;)

And yet a guy like yourself somehow keeps coming back for more? O_o

Yeah PC_Troll, You might want to try harder at the "I'm smarter and better than you game."

Yup Tool, everyone is a troll except for you, as you glibly selectively ignore your fellow Windows fanboys like NeoPrimate who make absolutely BS claims that, among other things, Apple "locked" their machine to prevent other OSes from running on them.

But then why should we expect you or your fellow fanboys to possess even a basic knowledge of reality, let alone fact. especially as you espouse such qualities as ethics in business.

But don't establish a precident and mention the spewing of lies and other misinformation regarding your beloved security fiasco whose claim to fame is that it runs games.

After all, if you held your own fanboys to a modicum of intelligence and accuracy you would inevitably end up spending all of yout time having to counter their nonsensical claims regarding imagined Apple slights against your security clown of an OS and the incredible ethical standards of MS and their requiement that you buy Zvista and pay for an XP downgrade - even if you are running a machine that was certified as being "Vista ready" curiously is not. But then we are not supposed to mention fraud in polite company, are we Mister Integrity?

You see folks, when you live in the realm of OS perfection where companies like Intel are your friends, folks like Tool -aka Mister Integrity in Ethics - musn't dare say anything bad about the most honest and enabling company ever to grace the planet...as long as you buy Vista for that fraudulently labeled "Vista Ready" computer that unfortunately isn't, for which you will have to pay for the XP downgrade.

But where else better to figure out the illogic of that than at a MS store.

And be sure not to miss the meet and greet with Seinfeld ...he will make it perfectly clear why MS is so worried about the Apple commercials from a platform that does not matter to MS. Just like he did in his exorbitantly priced commercials...

Fanboy?

*laughing*

Your selective memory issues popping up again, I see? I won't list the things they've done and products from Microsoft I don't care for again, it's been done to death. It amuses me to no end you can't have a discussion about anything Microsoft with *anyone* without bringing out the tired "fanboy" BS, though.

Wow, 4 in the morning... on a weekend, no less. His thesaurus sure gets a lot of use! ;-)

Yup, some of us deal with international accounts whose time is 8-14 hours different - and China works on the weekends.

Not to mention , that this is also when you supervise downed systems requiring remediation, upgrades or reconfiguration. Not to mention disaster recovery related issues.

But then you actually have to work in the industry to know that and not simply have a skateboard and play computer games...

I can see why you are confounded.

Yup Tool. MS Fanboy.

Ahh... must be those "more substantial efforts" you spoke of. Yet, here you were, typing your expected page-long diatribes, under yet another article dealing with issues, products, and companies you claim repeatedly to despise. Yep, sounds like really important work to shun to come to a site where you've clearly expressed disdain for almost every article written and have no respect for most of the editors or regular members.

I believe this is the point where you would have normally interjected with your usual tired "that was the entire point which you completely failed to notice, nimrod" tripe. LOL!

...and you like to pretend that you're the only one who visits here for the entertainment value. ;-)

Ahhh. such blissful ignorance.
The diatribes take but 5-10 minutes AT MOST to type, and waiting for systems to be rebooted and resources mounted takes significantly longer - especially is you need to fsk filesystems for corruption.

But someone who has ever done this knows this. Obviously you don't.

Of the large scale systems Windows doesn't even rank near the best. On the desktop. of the available systems, Windows ranks last in all but baseline fnctionality allowing the playing of games and watching YouTube videos. Otherwise various Mac and Linux platforms outperform it - especially if robust error survival or data integrity is necessary. But none of the desktop systems approach the higher level functionality the large systems offer.

But why do we get the feeling that you aren't even familiar with what any of those features might be?

But the continued focus of folks like yourself on the forum of the industry as perceived from the sole POV of a desktop-centric gamer is a hilarious one.

And I love how simply using words that any average literate person should have a functional knowledge confounds you. But at least you are consistent.

It is still funny that some idiots are still finding cause to whine about "what if MS limited its use of Windows like Apple does"...with some asinine reference to an Apple 'monopoly'.

All the while, they glibly ignore MS's practice where they still effectively control the prebuilt PC marketplace where it is all but impossible to buy a PC without paying for Windows.

And worse, you have to buy vista and then pay for an XP 'downgrade'!

As witnessed by:
Lawsuit targets Microsoft over Vista-to-XP downgrades
Calif. woman paid extra for XP, blames 'anticompetitive' licensing for Vista

http://www.computerworld...amp;intsrc=news_ts_head

"Microsoft coerced computer makers into "agreeing to restrictive and anticompetitive licensing terms" for XP. "Microsoft did so in order to maintain, protect and extend its market power in operating systems software into the next generation of personal computing, to lessen competition, to promote Vista and to enhance its monopoly position," her lawsuit claimed.

Irked at having to pay a fee for downgrading a new Lenovo notebook to XP, Alvarado said that Microsoft had used its position as the dominant operating system maker to "require consumers to purchase computers pre-installed with the Vista operating system and to pay additional sums to 'downgrade' to the Windows XP operating system."

"Downgrade" describes the Windows licensing rights that Microsoft gives users, who are allowed under special circumstances to replace newer versions of Windows with an older edition without having to pay for another license. In effect, the license for the newer Windows is transferred to the older edition.

After Vista's launch, PC makers stopped or significantly curtailed sales of machines with XP, but users -- and eventually resellers as well -- began to take advantage of downgrade rights as Vista's reputation slid. By Microsoft's rules, only buyers of PCs with pre-installed editions of Vista Business and Vista Ultimate could downgrade, and then only to Windows XP Professional.

As more users demanded downgrades, Microsoft allowed computer makers to install XP Professional at the factory. The computer makers charged a variety of fees for the service. Last December, Dell Inc. came under fire for adding $150 to the price of a downgraded PC: Dell said $20 was for the actual downgrade and another $130 to cover the additional cost of replacing the usual Vista Home Premium -- the most popular edition -- with Vista Business or Vista Ultimate."

Yup, if only everyone was like MS - the benevolent, alttruistic company who only wants the little people to thrive and grow to their unbridled potential... My @ss.

And now you can go to their store to explore such amazing opportunities.

This says it all: http://www.fool.com/inve...selling-stupid-too.aspx

Yup. MS opens a store so that they can have a Halo or Gears of War room!

How utterly lame!

But it sure gives you an idea of the clientele they will be facing, doesn't it?

I would suggest they post signs requiring children under 14 be accompanied by parents.

LMAO!

I am so sorry foxfyre. I should have mentioned things that you may be interested in at the Microsoft store. What was the last 'big' thing you purchased? The beattles anthology? Michael Jacksons Thriller remake album? I can tell that by someone not likeing what you like makes you uncomfortable. May be we should all act your age? Around what 60? Its ok if you do not understand. You probably have alzhimers. We do not all look like you, the 'cool' mac guy in the commercials.

Is there anyones post you like? Oscar the grouch?

Poor baby?

And who are the "Beattles"?

Yup, swooft strategic marketing. A Halo or World or Warcraft room to sell what? Games? Why should MS have such a room to sell others products?

Especially as one pretty much has to have Windows to run those games anyway...Or is MS supposed to support them?

It must confuse the hell out of you that there is a larger world of computing than simply games and P2P filesharing of crap hip hop files.

It keeps the profits away from Bestbuy, Futureshop, Circuit City and Wal Mart. They would have to 'price match' and loose money in the process to get the sale. But this MS store would have awesome tech support and trying all the new products first. A HALO ROOM? GEARS OF WAR LAN GAME in the store??? Come on when was the last time you played your missle command on your imac in a lan party game? 1993 HA.

this is what i've got to say about this: HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA LAME!

Heh, I'm deeply ambivalent about Microsoft my daily use laptop was exorcised of MS influences by Ubuntu years ago, though i still am the go to guy for tech support in my extended family, mostly MS... And MS does produce my favorite ebook software, MS Reader, the only software I still miss after making the switch. And hell, i picked up a 60 gig 360 for cheaper than a Wii at a closing circuit city.

And i REALLY want to play with a Surface system.

If they do their stores properly, they likely will not worry about individual store profitability but instead look for increases in overall profitability created by good will at the stores. Treat them more as outreach than profit centers.

And hell, it would be a place to show off their forays into hardware, the xbox 360, the Zune, higher end replacement keyboards, etc, and more easily demonstrate how their various products can tie together.

If they play this right, they could even get good will out of me. Especially if they provide someone else for my extended family to bug.

why bother the supposed IPOD killer got killed by the IPOD ages ago

Jesus, is there anything Apple does/has that Microsoft does not copy? Who in their right mind wants to go to a Microsoft store? What is there to see/do? Hey look...there is the Zune which sucks so bad no one is buying them. Hey look....there is a cheapo, no name, cloner, beige box running Windows Vista SP2 (AKA Windows 7). Hey look....there is a XBox 360 which has bricked. Whoever is calling the shots at Microsoft really does not get it. Reminds me of the clowns in Detroit.

One thing MS hasn't done is lock people down to only using their hardware with their software. Seriously, try installing OSX on a machine with identical specs and much cheaper hardware to anything you can get from Apple. Now try to get support.

Apple is ethically no better than MS overall they just have a better image.

Just from the title....this topic screams flamebait. I can't begin to imagine what software and hardware existing in the computer industry (and soon to be cellphone and any other device Apple happens to, ahem, innovate) DOESN'T 'follow' Apple for people who own and/or are fans of Apple products. Which is why I've initially resisted posting in here. I'm generally a fan of Ms/Mrs. Gunns articles but, oy to this one.

I don't see how the 2 stores are THAT similar, so as to say that one 'follows' the other. Apple is in the market mostly for selling it's hardware (which at one point, was locked to using only it's software). They provide hardware and an OS platform, first and foremost. Apple stores while selling software and hardware are more focussed on the hardware aspect - that's where they make money. Brick and mortar stores that don't have a 'mini' Apple store can't sell Apple products.

MS software and peripherals can be picked up pretty much wherever you buy computer stuff. That means pretty much any troglodyte can sell the uninformed customer anything....all they have to do is be convincing.

MS on the other hand, is in the market for software. Software which is neither locked nor 'favors' specific hardware. Software for home users and hardcore gamers to soho to small business to big businesses to enterprises. Apple gets money from [everything] it sells in it's stores independent of markup/profit numbers through very tight licensing schemes and locking all of it's software to it's hardware and vice versa. If MS decides to sell computers in their stores, the only thing they'll be getting is the fact that the computers will be sold with their OS (and maybe additional MS stuff) and whatever markup is required to break even or make some money. A dedicated MS store would be focussed on erasing the damage that Apple and the uninformed has done to the 'Vista' and so, MS name by helping people pick the right devices for their needs.

In other words, they're two different monsters...or fruits, whatever.

"A dedicated MS store would be focussed on erasing the damage that Apple and the uninformed has done to the 'Vista' ..."

ROFL. Vista is a total failure because it sucks. Plain and simple. Buggy, slow, bloated, incompatible...yeah only the uninformed know it sucks. Look how they are rushing Vista SP2, i mean, Windows 7 out. And they are going to make people pay for it. ROFL.

Fact is, Microsoft has nothing to pull people into a store. "Hey guys, lets go look at the new version of Office". "Let's go look at that random, generic super expensive clone box running the super expensive Ultimate Vista SP2 that apes everything OSX does but fails miserably at it"

There are only so many uneducated American high schoolers to stop by to play the XBox 360 demo machines...

I've been in the Retail Experience Center and I can tell you it's pretty cool to be able to test drive laptops or netbooks from a large variety of manufactures all in the same place. All set up as hero machines with no crapware or trial ware. The display prototype fixtures are well thought out and ergonomic for actually using the hardware. No cable ties covering the controls, no leashes to keep you from holding or turning over the item. When you want to buy your next computer would you rather actually try them all out or do you want to continue to walk into Best Buy and see them all locked away with a best buy web page stuck on screen?

If you even consider going to Best buy, you deserve exactly what you get.

So what "store" do you go to when you want to physically touch computers from many different makers before you buy them? Costco, Walmart? Get real...unfortunately, Best Buy is one of the better choices for poorly displayed variety and that's not saying much.

Actually, although I hate the business practices of the store itself and would never buy a computer there, one of the more accessaible places for most folks near them that has a large solection of machines and brands is Fry's. And I have no problem with going there and playing with them.

Best Buy's selection stinks, and the advice from the staff is even worse.

And for many folks, university bookstores, or computer stores, are often a better place to investigate them - if there is one accessible. And they are often the only places one can sometimes find the higher end models.

But lacking those avenues, calling various VARS in the area is often a reasonable option as they can often suggest models that are actively being bought in quantity by various businesses and suggest reasons why particular models were chosen. And often they may have a few available to look at.

But then I don't buy a computer simply by going in and seeing if its mouse works or how the color scheme of the case strikes my fancy. I research the configurations, read the lousy reviews that tend to dominate the consumer press, and search out more rigorous reviews as well, and then, after narrowing the choices down to a handfull, seek out the machines at various dealers or with colleagues who may have them.

Stand-alone stores would be insanity. However, fully integrating into a major retail outlet would probably help them a lot. Microsoft does have a perception problem, although it pales next to their real problem which is their inability to deliver truly desirable products.

Hey Internetworld7! I have something for you to meditate on. I bought an 80GB iPod, sent it to Colorware, and HAD THEN TURN IT BROWN. Yeah, I really did. It's sitting right here, still percolating along, and looks great -- a dark, neutral finish without black's maddening smudge visibility (or white's I-think-I'm-in-an-iPod-commercial vibe).

Cocoa brown is a great, underrated color for tech gear -- especially since we've had a good half-decade of fashion incorporating brown-as-the-new-black. Zune had plenty of problems on launch, but I always felt that the people who whinged about the colors really weren't even trying to make a case for their preferred player.

Angela, far be it from me to agree with anything the iTurd says - so I won't.

But the fact that you and 4 others agree hasn't seemed to make the Zune any more successful. ;-)

Personally I agree with you in the sense that a good quality faux Tortoise shell wouldn't be bad. But just plain brown...I don't see how that is really any better or worse than dayglo green or chrome or black or orange. Besides, if I did choose to buy one of the overpriced low-fi devices, it would be for fuction, and not because my friends all wanted to fondle it.

Obviously I am in a minority.

But its not quite as small as the Zune community... ;-)

sounds cool, i'm all for it... consumers interested in products and drop by and try them out, get advice, all that good stuff

That's totally the idea, artfuldodga. And don't forget the prospect of closely trained staff; that's been a big selling point for Apple's retail efforts, and in my experience would have helped poor Gateway a lot. Also, in-store tryouts were an important function of the big-box stores that seem to be in so much trouble; even if it's just a few stores in high-profile areas, there's value in giving folks a chance to sit/stand there and try stuff out.

Angela? I'm sorry to say I disagree with Apple having a highly trained staff. and before anyone jumps down my throat, this same issue will probably apply to a MS store.
Here is one example (real life..not the loony tune characters above). When I was shopping for a new desktop, I wanted a 64 bit machine and OS. I talked with the "highly trained" apple people and was told of course their OS is 64 bit compatibility and is in fact 128 bit compatible. Now maybe I was asleep when this bit of info was announced but the best you can do right now is 64 bit. So much for a "highly trained " staff. Now if you want to pay for their "tech" support and just like MS you can expect people no better than the Geek squad despite that silly show that was on briefly (at least I hope the sci-fi channel cancelled it).
So what you have is not a highly trained "tech" staff but a well-trained "SALES" staff who have a little knowledge to make them dangerous but not enough to answer simple questions.
One more example- I went into an Apple store and saw that, on the computers, they had loaded up them up with programs and widgets. I asked a simple question, "What programs actually come with the computer that is ready to use out of the box?" The look I got from the salesperson was like a deer caught in the headlights. Now I don't expect MS stores to be any different because the job of the staff is to sell products and they are only given enough info to do that. You can pay out the {fill in the blank} just to get your questions answered but that is silly.
Ms Stores will be no different because they operate on the same principle- sell product and then charges for tech support.
Just my humble opinion and experience
Everyone have a nice day:)

Apple stores are staffed by fanboys without a clue.
Just as are Best Buy and any of the other retail stores.