Again... the sales #'s don't lie. Even after the $99 HDDVD player sales... the numbers have stayed the same.

http://www.engadgethd.com/tag/VideoScan/

But......but.....but....Michael Bay is only after just telling us that Microsoft weren't really supporting HD DVD!

LMAO

"By bobthegoat2001 posted Dec 6, 2007 - 6:49 AM

Wow, two decent games after one long year. That's a bargin..... not! Haze and UT3 are multiplatform. The 360 is still cheaper than the PS3 and has more games with better online. Plus you don't need HD-DVD to enjoy HD movies (or TV shows). You can download them on Xbox Live Marketplace."

when was the first "AAA" title for the 360 released? Gears came out nearly a year after the 360's release...

Haze is 100% PS3 exclusive...check your sources...

Unreal is multiplat, but no release planned for the 360 because the devs wont release it without user created mods, and Microsoft won't let them do it the way they want it....Sony on the other hand will...

enjoy your HD movies filling up your hard drive as you download them...BD's and HD-DVD's are not 20+ GB just because they feel like making them that big....HD video/audio takes up LOTS of space

"Haze is 100% PS3 exclusive...check your sources..."

For now, just like it has been all year. The same goes for Final Fantasy XIII... a possibility of additional platforms later. All Ubisoft has stated recently is that there is currently no plans for a PC or Xbox 360 release planned. You cannot say without a shadow of doubt that it will be always PS3-exclusive... no differently than I can say that it will not. All I can really say is that I hope it will not be. It seems like a neat game.

There are certainly more than 2 decent games for PS3. Saying that just make you look dumb.

COD4
Ratchet and clank
Uncharted Drakes Fortune
UT3
Haze
Motorstorm
Resistance
Obvlivion
F1 Championship
Heavenly Sword
and plenty more.

UT3 and Haze are not multi-platform, not for a least a year anyway. Epic havn't even started the 360 version of UT3 yet.

Don't forget MGS4 and Killzone2, both PS3 exclusives...

SO what hated the last ones so expect nothing better this time around. You make it sound like the PS3 is the only system that has exclusives. When is Halo 3 coming out for the PS3, hum never. I can say that too moron.

COD4 on 360
Ratchet and Clank must be that good sales are not good
Uncharted its alright way to short seems to be the norm on the PS3.
UT3 coming soon for 360
Haze it will come it is even any good.
Motorstorm was fun but nothing great
Resistance not bad
Oblivion on PC and 360
F1 hate sims like gran turismo will pass
Heavenly sword great for what 4 or 5 hours
Your beloved PS3 is not the only system that is going to have fun exclusives but I don't expect you to understand that.

Speaking of forgetting, you seem to always "forget" to reply when challenged to elaborate on those "vastly superior" Blu-ray interactivity features below. Yet again, you shy away from it. I wonder why that is...

"when was the first "AAA" title for the 360 released? Gears came out nearly a year after the 360's release..."

Who cares. The 360 still has more games, not to mention more AAA games (with better online).

"HD video/audio takes up LOTS of space"

That's what Sony wants you to believe, because you 'need' 50gbs. They have HD movies under 2gbs. Which is not that much for my 120gb HD.

Thanks for confirming my post.

Just the average user, who plays games and watches film on occasions don't care sh*t about the numbers. One unit in the front room that does everything is what I wanted and is why I got the PS3. I am sure most people will feel the same way who don't won't the front room to be clustered with entertainment devices with bits added on (Xbox360). The simple reason why Blu ray will succeed

I love how il-loostya and Steve Austin posted their back and forth banter within 5 minutes of each other. Quite suspicious. They either..

a) Sat there for a while constantly reloading this page
b) Are good friends from bluray.com
c) Are the same person

You decide.

Either way, Blu-Ray is so dead, it's too funny to even think about it. Ooh 2.7 million Blu-Ray player sold on Black Friday *INCLUDING* PS3 consoles. I wonder why they have to say it that way. Makes it seem like the 750,000 ACTUAL HD-DVD players are minuscule in comparison. But wait.. if we were to compare REAL numbers, I'm willing to bet they barely sold any ACTUAL BD players on Black Friday.

The Sony shills really crack me up. They keep thinking the PS3 is going to save their ailing BD format. We all know no one's willing to pay $500+ for a REAL BD player (ie. standalone) and we all know that almost no one is using their PS3 as a BD player.

It's quite troubling when Sony's own president admits the format war is at a stalemate. Surely, if the 5+ million BD players trojan horsed inside the PS3 were handing BD the victory, he would not be making such statements, right? Oops.

Well it seems Toshiba started the game, as they shyed away from standalones, and wanted to use the term "Dedicated" players, so they could fudge the stats with console HD DVD drives. Bad move on Toshiba's part, as that opened the door for Sony to include 6 million PS3's making the 750,00 HD DVD players seem insignificant.

Either way, the media sales speak for themselves, it's now 3:1 in the US, in Blu-ray favor, same as Europe.

I also see the PS3 gets it's Profile 1.1 (or 2.0) update very soon too.

http://www.computerandvi...m/article.php?id=177013

Not only does it match the features on HD DVD, it vastly exceeds them.

Give it a rest Kashin. Stop pulling out your hair trying to do damage control for your beloved HD-DVD format... on the other hand your posts are quite funny so please continue with your rants.

In response to your query:
a) yes (I was bored)
b) not a bluRay fan, thus no.
c) not the same - are you Hollywood?

Now lets get back to the story folks:

"In any event, the move shows that the Redmond company is nowhere near ready to give up on HD DVD."

They should give up.

"I also see the PS3 gets it's Profile 1.1 (or 2.0) update very soon too."

- Source : The digitalbits.

= Bill Hunt's Blu-ray shill rag.

Credible source, not!

Hi MinuteMaid, I agree... I guess that means we are the same person??? Nice to meet you... nice to meet me.

3:1? Interesting stats.

Here in Japan the market is Blu-ray without question. Last month, Sony/Panasonic/Sharp released their HD video recorders all of which contain large harddisks and Blu-ray player/recorders. This is now hitting the mainstream market big time with TV commercials advertising the built in Blu-ray recording and playing capability. These video players aren't cheap at around the $800 - $1500 range but they are being pushed and the price range here is typical and not outrageous for the mainstream market. You actually have a hard time finding HD-DVD player/recorders and HD-DVD media.

The other thing I have noticed is PC peripherals. Blu-ray burners and media are plentiful. The alternative is again hard to find and the range is poor. Dual format HD-DVD/Blu-Ray Player with Blu-Ray burning is available... the opposite with HD-DVD burning in multiformat playing in non existent.

I have no stats here, these are my observations... anyone have stats?

Ok so who cares about the Japanese market? Well if HD-DVD is a complete failure in this market will Toshiba continue developing improving the technology for OS markets? Perhaps... but seeing the direction it’s heading abroad its seems unlikely.

"Not only does it match the features on HD DVD, it vastly exceeds them."

The challenge is put to you again to attempt to explain just how those fabled interactivity features are "vastly" superior to those that all HD DVD players are able to provide.

Can you do that? My guess is 'no', since you haven't already... and neither has anyone else.

In fact, allow me to post a portion of an interview with Paramount's CTO Alan Bell on his reasons for dumping Blu-ray (albeit from an older article, but it still applies as the scenario has not changed on Blu-ray's side):

PCW: From your first-hand experiences, what can you tell us about the difference in programming languages between HD DVD, which uses Microsoft's***echnology, and Blu-ray, which uses BD-Java?

Bell: BD-Java is a programming language. The benefit is that it's very flexible. The drawback is that you may need 100 lines of BD-Java code. HDi is a relatively compact piece of code; one command can cover quite a bit of interactivity.

BD-Java is also more complex, so the possibility of errors is greater. And when BD players are put out, [there's the question of whether] they all support the scenarios as coded up from the low level. [Some of the early problems with BD-Java discs] were in part due to the complexity that BD-Java brings. From our point of view, HDi offers all of the flexibility we need, in practice, and it does so in a more simplified way and in a way that we feel leads to better compatibility, better reliability, and lower costs.

PCW: Up until now, how have you approached coding your discs for HDi and BD-Java?

Bell: At this particular point in time, we've been able to supply more features with HDi and HD DVD than with BD-Java and Blu-ray Disc. What we have typically done in practice is that we've created the interactive scenarios in HD DVD and then tried to pull them into Blu-ray. But that has not been entirely possible: Some things we can do in HDi are not supported in BD-Java. If you're going to do BD-Java, you need someone who's capable of programming at a low level. With HDi, you don't need somebody with that additional level of training. We don't need programmers to code our discs.

http://www.pcworld.com/a.../id,136253/article.html

Gee, that seems to contradict your 'expert opinion' on the matter... as usual.

Japan = 9:1 in favor of Blu-ray

You can say that, but your doing to look very dumb when it happens.

"your doing to look very dumb when it happens."

- Let's just stick with what has actually happened, instead of your "pretty dumb" speculation and mere empty assertions, eh?

1) PS3 has has no profile 1.1 or profile 2.0 updates yet and
2) nothing official has been said to say it's ever getting any either.

We've had the (repeatedly delayed) mandatory cut-off date for profile 1.1 come and go and so far not a single profile 1.1 player or disc has emerged.

....and they even ended up fudging that supposedly mandatory deadline (which I suppose was one way of avoiding the embarrassment of yet another delay).
http://www.videobusiness.../article/CA6495668.html

Well over 1 year into this and the game console format remains stuck 2 steps back from where it claims it's supposed to be going.

That's looking "pretty dumb" to me.

"In any event, the move shows that the Redmond company is nowhere near ready to give up on HD DVD."

They should give up.

Perhaps this is them giving up. Clearing stock.

Probably... I guess the ones who haven't given up are the unlucky people who purchased the drives and players early on.... one consolation is that the drives were quite cheap so its not such a big loss, also there is probably enough user base to justify publishers in releasing HD-DVD titles for a few years to come... and if not you can watch the titles you own over and over again.

Hello Steve.

Hello Steve.

Hello Steve.

hahaha... that was amusing. I'm not Steve, definately not a Sony fanboy.... I own a Wii and a X-Box 360 (just picked up PGR4 for $30)...and do NOT own a PS3...yet.

Don't worry, they think that everyone here who perfers the quality of Blu-ray, is Steve and Dave.

Whats this??? Its Steve with yet another account!

Including you!

Never mind the fact that its been proven that at least one of those names is also Benjamin Linus...

What quality of Blu-ray? I own both formats, and honestly, with the exception of picture quality, HD DVD, and its interactivity owns BR.

I love watching Steve/Dave squirm and try to come up with new reasons for people to buy Blu-Ray. You can tell he's so jealous of any HD-DVD success.

What a complete retard.

I don't recally any HD DVD sucess, I can see them getting hammered in sales, every week for the last year, I can see the gap that Blu-ray is outselling them by increasing. I can see 6 million Blu-ray players, compared to 750,000 HD DVD players..

Please remind us of those successes...

Who needs a reason to buy PS3/Blu-ray at these prices?

PS3 for $299?

http://www.diggingtheweb...ews07novdec/120507.html

PS3 for $349?

http://news.punchjump.com/article.php?id=5227

Hello Steve.

Hello Steve.

And there go's Steve again with his numbers.

i played 360 at my friends house.. then he got a ps3 (he is a gaming freak), and for some unkown reason i decided to get a ps3!

so recap, i use both 360 and ps3.. like the ps3 better.. movies?? i dont watch movies i could care less about hddvd/bluray.. i got a ps3 cuz it plays great games...

butttt since my ps3 plays blu-ray.. i will be buying blu-ray movies.. end of story, goodbye!

Adrian79,

That's sort of what happen to me. I bought a PS3 for the games (@ 600), but since I had an HDTV and a Blu-ray player... why not. I do hope this ends soon though.

Hello Steve.

Hello Ste... Ok, I give up.

Steve, this is lame.

Week after week.

http://www.engadgethd.com/tag/VideoScan/

Both formats' userbases are pitiful.
HD TVs still aren't close to being in every home (in the western world alone).

The former won't change without the latter.

$129 feels about right for the add-on given that standalones are going for $199 (talking regular prices here).

That said, I managed to pick up a $120 HD-A2 when the crazy sales were going on last month so I'm passing on the add-on.

Okay I have neither, but if I were to purchase one it would be the inexpensive one, I am not a marketing professional, but I do know that when you have a family $129 HDDVD player vs 300+ BR player, HDDVD wins hands down. So I don't know what the argument is about ?? Should I use stupid logic and buy the insanely priced BR HD solution or save lots of money for Gas or more movies and purchase and HDDVD player..???

"I do know that when you have a family $129 HDDVD player vs 300+ BR player, HDDVD wins hands down."

I think you mean 399+ because the PS3 is the cheapest BD player at $399 and there's nothing below that price. Sony's standalone BD players are priced something like $599-$1299 right now. So the cheapest BD player is more than 3 times more expensive than the cheapest HD-DVD player. All these kids who believe BD is selling like hot cakes at more than 3 times the price are delusional.

The PS3 and Blu-ray are dead?

hmm....then answer the following question...if the PS3 and Blu-ray are so dead, why is it that the PS3 outsold the Wii in Japan for November, and Blu-ray is DOMINATING HD-DVD in movie sales worldwide?....I'm not exactly sure how one will be able to explain those away and make it look like the PS3 and Blu-ray are failing...

face it...people complain..."The PS3 is too expensive!" yet the PS3 has sold roughly 50% of the total units sold of the 360...and its sold it in 50% of the time...sounds about right no?...and outside of North America the PS3 outsells the 360 regularly, and outsold the Wii for an entire month in Japan...

people say "Blu-ray players are too expensive!" yet week after week total blu-ray sales SMASH HD-DVD sales...

people say "$99 HD-DVD player! THE DEATH OF BLU-RAY!!" and yet there are more Blu-ray players in homes, and TONS more software sales out there....

people like plague201 say things like...

"So the HD-DVD drive has dropped $70 from its original price, while the PS3 has dropped $200 and is still overpriced. Even at the $200 I payed for my HD-DVD drive, I don't feel bad about not saving $70, I'd feel REALLY STUPID if I have bought a PS3 for $200 more"

and i respond with...you can't play games on your HD-DVD player...or surf the net, or stream music/video from your PC, or talk to your friends...and you also can do any of those things with the HD-DVD add-on for the 360...The way you put it...you are paying $200 for the video game aspect of the PS3 and $200 for the Blu-ray....well hell...that makes it a CHEAPER option than a 360 and an HD-DVD player...sounds good to me...

everyone knocks the PS3 and Blu-ray...yet...

Blu-ray is STILL number 1 in sales...by a long shot...and the PS3 has sold half the consoles in half the time and the 360 has already gotten the benefit of the "halo effect" to boost sales....Sony has got some great exclusives out (Ratchet and Clank, Uncharted) with Haze on the way....and you might as well call Unreal III a console exclusive for now considering MS is STILL not working with the devs on allowing user created content so god knows when the game will ship on the 360....things are looking up for the PS3...and well...Blu-ray has been in the top spot since launch...so no worries for sony there....

Why do you care so much you insignificant nothing?

"if the PS3 and Blu-ray are so dead, why is it that the PS3 outsold the Wii in Japan for November"

It sounds great when you say it that way, doesn't it? But let's put it into perspective. The PS3 has been out for 12 months, much like the Wii. Out of those 12 months, it outsold the Wii *ONCE*, by a 15% margin and ONLY IN JAPAN. I very much doubt the PS3 has ever outsold the Wii WORLD WIDE. The other 11 months the PS3 was outsold by the Wii anywhere from 3:1 to 5:1 in Japan. That's 300% to 500% folks! The Wii outselling the PS3 by HUGE margins for 11 months, compared to the PS3 outselling the Wii 1 month at 15%. There's your perspective. I know you Sony boys would like to believe the PS3 will continue to sell well from now, because of this amazing 15% margin (laugh!) and it probably will.. for the month of December. It's Christmas and people are more willing to splurge on expensive toys than they normally would. Once the holidays are over, PS3 sales will drop like a rock. At $399 the PS3 is still far too expensive for your average gamer.

"people complain..."The PS3 is too expensive!" yet the PS3 has sold roughly 50% of the total units sold of the 360...and its sold it in 50% of the time...sounds about right no?"

Wrong. Just like I finished explaining in the other thread, you can't just divide 13.7 million by two because the 360 has been out for 2 years. At the 1 year mark the 360 was over 9 million units sold. Then in the second year sales have slowed, as they tend to do, and also because two NEW consoles were introduced (Wii and PS3). Your measly PS3 numbers don't look so peachy now. The 360 sold a good 2.6 million units more in its first year than the PS3 did, and you can bet your a** that sales of PS3 next year will slow down too and Sony will be left in the dust.

You can use your Sony logic to justify the PS3 lagging year after year, because the 360 will always have the 1 year head start. But when you compare the PS3 numbers to Wii numbers.. since they were released at the same time.. well, doesn't looks so great now, does it?

You can rant on with your skewed point of view all you want. The bottom line is, the cheapest HD-DVD players cost $99-$199 right now, compared to Blu-Ray at $399-$599. Do you honestly believe Blu-Ray has any chance of winning at more than 3 times the price? I don't know what world you live in, but most people aren't going to pay $400 and up to watch movies when their DVD players are just fine. Unless BD players see dramatic drops in price (fat chance, since Sony is involved) they have no chance of ever winning this "format war". Plain and simple.

Wow, two decent games after one long year. That's a bargin..... not! Haze and UT3 are multiplatform. The 360 is still cheaper than the PS3 and has more games with better online. Plus you don't need HD-DVD to enjoy HD movies (or TV shows). You can download them on Xbox Live Marketplace.

Another price drop for HD-DVD. Feel the burn. Booyah!

What do you got Blu-Ray?? Wut? Wut? You ain't got sh*t!

Quit feeding the jealous troll. He is nobody and beneath us all.

Wow, 2nd HD DVD fire sale in a month. Talk about desperation...

I noticed that Blu-ray now owns 75% of the market in north America, and the Back Friday sales were Blu all the way...

When I talk about desperation your name usually comes to mind...

Nice. All these these fire sales do, is alienate all other hardware manufacutrers.

Manufacturers are dumping HD DVD like a plague, as they can't afford to sell $500 players for $99 like Toshiba can.

The $99 fire sale is the final death throws of a dying format. Why else would they make a commerically suicidal move that pissed off everyone else in their consortium..

Toshiba is running out of moves very fast...

then please do explain how this is a fire sale and the ps3 price slashing isn't???

I love how you ignore any questions about your flawed logic and just continue to spew your nonsense. The PS3 and Blu-Ray are the only "dying" formats here. You're delusional if you think otherwise.

Here, fixed your comment for you:

By Steve Austin

"Nice. All these these fire sales do, is alienate all other hardware manufacutrers.

Manufacturers are dumping Blu Ray like a plague, as they can't afford to sell $999 players plus Game Console for $400 like Sony can.

The $400 fire sale is the final death throws of a dying format. Why else would they make a commerically suicidal move that pissed off everyone else in their consortium..

Sony is running out of moves very fast..."

"Manufacturers are dumping HD DVD like a plague, as they can't afford to sell $500 players for $99 like Toshiba can.

The $99 fire sale is the final death throws of a dying format. Why else would they make a commerically suicidal move that pissed off everyone else in their consortium.."

Can you back this with facts or is this just more propaganda?

"Manufacturers are dumping HD DVD like a plague, as they can't afford to sell $500 players for $99 like Toshiba can."

Oh really? I do recall a certain MAJOR STUDIO dumping Blu-Ray in favor of HD-DVD. Much to the dismay of Blu-Ray zealots like yourself. Have the wounds healed so fast? Not long ago, you fanatics at bluray.com were all crying your digital tears over that. Now you come and try to spread your Sony propaganda every time there's an HD-DVD related price drop. I know "fire sale" is your new favorite phrase and all, but we find it rather funny. If Microsoft didn't believe in HD-DVD, they would simply drop the format altogether. When was the last time you saw Microsoft do a "fire sale"? Yeah, that's what I thought. Let's face it, you're just a desperate fanboy and nothing more. At the end of the day, lower prices are always better for the end user, so go ahead and call that whatever you want.

Seriously though, think about it for a second. Let's say your nonsense was actually true and HD-DVD disappeared from the market tomorrow. Then we're left with what? A bunch of ultra-high priced Sony Blu-Ray players which cost $500+ and a failing console costing $399 and up. See what I'm getting at? How can HD-DVD fail when their lowest priced players are $99-$199 against Blu-Ray at $399-$499 for lowest price?

"I noticed that Blu-ray now owns 75% of the market in north America, and the Back Friday sales were Blu all the way..."

Sony's own president called the format ware a stalemate just a few short weeks ago, but now all of the sudden they own the market? I guess you're smarter than Sony's president and know more about the market. Oh wait, you're just some dumba** kid with too much free time on your hands. My mistake.

Kinda like the PS3s fire sale?

"Why else would they make a commerically suicidal move that pissed off everyone else in their consortium.."

The only person (or people) that are pissed off was you and everyone at blu-ray.com

"I do recall a certain MAJOR STUDIO dumping Blu-Ray in favor of HD-DVD."

Sure, they dumped it for the _short_ term as M$ wrote them a $100 million dollar check.

Got any proof that MS paid them?

^^^

Anything beyond rumor to back this up?

"Sure, they dumped it for the _short_ term as M$ wrote them a $100 million dollar check."

Yeah, you keep telling yourself that every night when you cry yourself to sleep. Does the phrase "sour grapes" mean anything to you? hahahaha.

Regardless, they got dumped.

What do you care Pit$ingo? Your Wii can't play Blu-Ray. Or did you just want a reason to type M$?

Your a** must be in pain by now.

And we are still wondering...

Michael Bay (director of Transformers) on his website:

What you don't understand is corporate politics. Microsoft wants both formats to fail so they can be heroes and make the world move to digital downloads. That is the dirty secret no one is talking about. That is why Microsoft is handing out $100 million dollar checks to studios just embrace the HD DVD and not the leading, and superior Blu Ray. They want confusion in the market until they perfect the digital downloads. Time will tell and you will see the truth.

michael bay needs to stick to making movies, not conspiracy theories. maybe then he'll make a movie that isn't s***ty.

I'm already doing digital downloads. ;)

Opinions are like a$$holes. Every celebrity has one and they ALL stink. Michael Bay needs to stick to what he's paid to do. Deciphering the intricacies of "corporate politics" and predicting the future of digital media are not on the list.

Michael Bay needs to make up his mind.

First he's pissed because of the Paramount/Dreamworks move; then he's apologetic and recants his earlier rant, claiming to have 'drunk the kool-aid' (all the while saying he's happy with HD DVDs quality). And now this...

Seriously Mike...quit being Speilberg's (and the studios') sock puppet, and form your own opinion. You're a director, so why don't you worry about directing movies, and leave the distribution decisions to those who are qualified to make them.

What a load of shi*.
Microsoft approached the BDA years ago and wanted them to use HDi. Sony gave M$ the bird and told them to far cough, so M$ did.
They went straight to Toshiba and supported HD DVD.
I'm no M$ fanboy, but good on them for giving the bird back to fony.
Fony is extorting the public by forcing them to pay exorbitant prices for their DRM infested BR DVD players by withholding content.
They deserve to burn for intentionally setting out to rip the public off with their BR format.
Why do you think the other BR CE manufactures aren't reducing their ridiculous BR prices? They are waiting, hoping,PS3 will destroy HD DVD , then they can charge what they want for hardware and software. BR is a sick monopoly which deliberately created this format war in order to fleece the public by selling overpriced DVD players.
I hope sony and the BR alliance all burn .
Go M$, Go Toshiba!

Agreed... very much so!

He's a self-absorbed, arrogant, pretentious prick. I trust him to do one thing well: make stuff go 'boom' on the big screen. Beyond that, he can take what he thinks he knows about what's best for the consumer and shove it up his elitist ass.

Considering you could buy the previous gen Toshiba for $99, Microsoft really should drop the HD DVD add-on to that price.

I just checked amazon - it has not been lowered - Still $179!!

So the HD-DVD drive has dropped $70 from its original price, while the PS3 has dropped $200 and is still overpriced. Even at the $200 I payed for my HD-DVD drive, I don't feel bad about not saving $70, I'd feel REALLY STUPID if I have bought a PS3 for $200 more...

good. that this is crap. noisier than the 360 and in conjunction with the 360 makes watching movies impossible

you must have a week audio sys...

realy though i dont think its all that bad, not any noisier then any pc drive.

no its not as quiet as a standalone player, but its not that bad.

you must be sitting dame near on top of the 360 to have that problem

What ever you say there.

You obviously don't have one then making idiotic remarks like that...

It's not noisy AT ALL. Runs super quiet. I highly recommend getting this if you have a 360.

Are you the ghost of Jeff K?

Thank you for proving to everyone that you have absolutely NO idea what you are talking about. Makes it a lot easier on us. Because if you did know what you were talking about, you would know that the HD-DVD drive is actually VERY quiet.

How much is the Blu-ray number minus the PS3?

Who knows? Quoting non-PS3 Blu-Ray numbers would make Blu-Ray look bad, plus all the Sony shills would immediately start crying foul. You always have to quote PS3 and Blu-Ray sales numbers together, because it makes it look like both are not failing. Individually they look bad, but if you lump them together, it's not so bad.

If you lump them together, it makes the horrendous attach rate of Blu-ray movies even worse... less than one movie per BD-capable device.

I think this will always be an argument between the 2 camps.

Though the PS3 is a gaming machine, you can't NOT include those people who use it for movies. That's why attach rates mean nothing in this case.

There is just no way of knowing who bought the PS3 for ONLY games, ONLY movies, or for games AND movies.

Who cares.

The bottom line, is the cheapest way into Blu-ray is still the PS3, and this many people are using it as a cheap way into Blu-ray movies...

Until that changes, counting PS3, or at least a significant amount of them, is the correct thing to do.

Let's not forget, Toshiba opened this particular pandora's box, by twisting their numbers with 360 add-ons...

With 3:1 media sales in favor of Blu-ray, depsite less standalone players, PS3 effect is obviously valid.

"The bottom line, is the cheapest way into Blu-ray is still the PS3, and this many people are using it as a cheap way into Blu-ray movies..."

How many is "this many"?

How do you determine with any accuracy, how many PS3's should be counted, and where is the logic in your "twisting their numbers with 360 add-ons" statement? What else can the HD DVD add on be used for?

"The bottom line, is the cheapest way into Blu-ray is still the PS3, and this many people are using it as a cheap way into Blu-ray movies..."

WRONG! Most people aren't even aware that the PS3 can play movies at all, period. Sony has done a fine job of confusing everyone with their crappy marketing and ambiguous ads.

Also, you say the PS3 is the cheapest way into Blu-Ray. Do you see the flaw in that? Hmm, $399 into Blu-Ray or $99 into HD-DVD. Tough choice there.

"Let's not forget, Toshiba opened this particular pandora's box, by twisting their numbers with 360 add-ons..."

Let's not forget that the SOLE PURPOSE of the add-on is to play movies, nothing else. Thus, counting add-ons "is the correct thing to do", whereas most people who buy the POS3 aren't even aware it can play Blu-Ray movies. I know I'm wasting my typing here, since this fact has been pointed out to you numerous times. As usual, you simply ignore facts and anything you don't want to hear. You just spew the same bulls**t Sony propaganda every time you post. You're like those monkeys with their hands covering their eyes and ears. Hear no evil, see no evil.

When there's a way to verify which PS3s are being used solely for BR movies, then it will be valid to count those as BR players. Otherwise, the PS3 is still a games machine with BR movie functionality added on. (Given Sony's love of extraordinary DRM and rootkits, I'm surprised they haven't tried to find out how many PS3s are used solely for movies.)

The add-on only has one purpose...movie viewing. Therefore, it's legitimate to count it as a player.

Allow me to illustrate exactly why the PS3 has no legitimate reason to be counted as a BR player.

My dvd player, (a machine whose primary function is to play movies), has the ability to play cds . That functionality doesn't allow it to be counted towards the total number of cd players sold.

My HD DVD player has the ability to play and upconvert standard dvds. When I bought it, it was counted as an HD DVD player, not an upconverting dvd player.

The extra functionality has no bearing on these numbers. The primary intended use of the PS3 is as a games machine, and it should be counted as such.

The 360 add-on has one intended use...movie playback (therefore, its valid to count it towards the total number of HD DVD movie players out there).

You have no idea what the ps3 is being bought for.

I hear what you're saying. Sony can't say that 2.7 mill PS3 Blu-Ray (or 6.8 million total) players out there are only for movies and EVERYONE of those people WILL buy movies for it. That’s not what they are saying.

But fact of the matter is that there are 2.7 million blu-ray players in homes. Nobody knows how many of those 2.7 million owners will buy movies for it. It's impossible to predict that... But you can't NOT count these people. I bought 2 movies from Amazon this week (bogo sale) for my PS3. That counts.

I think because you can’t really tell what percentage of PS3 owners are using it only for movies, games and movies, or games only… Player sales comparisons and attach rates are meaningless because there is no way of knowing.

It's very easy to not count those PS3s, for the reasons that I listed above...AND the ones you've listed.

It's more appropriate to say that there are 2.7 million (or whatever the current sales figures show) game consoles that are capable of playing BR movies. But as you state, there is no way to verify whether it's being used for games, movies, or both (short of having the player report this information to a centralized databank). One of the most fundamental rules of logic is this: without evidence, the default position is negative (meaning, without some way to verify that there are PS3s being used strictly as BR players and what those numbers are, this number has no impact on the facts).

You're right about the sales comparisons and attach rates being meaningless...to a point. In terms of BR, these numbers are rather hazy, since the number of players is fairly fluid, depending on if you count the PS3 or not. HD DVD's numbers are quite a bit more accurate though, since each 'dedicated player' really only has one function...playing movies.

Microsoft is getting smart here and learning the lesson that Toshiba taught everyone with their $99 HD DVD sale a few weeks back: price sells product! Obviously that is still a lesson that Sony hasn't learned. Sony still thinks they can charge $200 to $500 more for a product just because it has the Sony name on it. Well, that was true....20 plus years ago. Amazing.

I haven't played with a PS3, so I don't know how noisy or not noisy they are but I know that this product is garbage. I wouldn't wish this thing on my enemies, though my worst enemies definitely deserve it. bums!

Are you talking about the PS3 or the HD add-on? If you are referring to the PS3, how can you possibly know the product is garbage without trying it? Give me a break.

Although I detest Sony product and their woeful quality control, the PS3 is one well-built machine.

Well built machine? Are you kidding me? I have yet to see one of the PS3's that didn't have a problem with overheating while playing Blu-Ray movies. I would call the PS3 a decently constructed device at best. I think "well built" is a bit of a stretch though.

Then you have yet to see a PS3 period.

You can fault Sony for many things... screwed up launch, high price early on, stupid commercials... But to say the quality on these machines is “…decently constructed device at best” and that “…well built is a bit of a stretch”, is just ridiculous.

Is the PS3 still at 1% failure rate?

I noticed the tremendous heat coming out of the unit. I wonder if time will cause a disk read error like its predecessor.

yea but it is really hard to determine the quality of a machine that has less than 1 per unit attach rate... obviosly most of the ps3's are sitting around collecting dust so until a pile of games come out and people start abusing them we will have no idea what the quality really is.

That’s not necessarily true.

I don’t mean to compare the 360 to the PS3, I know we’re not talking 360…
But, overheating problems were reported the day after launch in large numbers when the 360 didn’t have a library for it.

All I’m saying is that if there was a read error problem with the drives, we would have heard it by now. The 2/3/4 – 1 Blu-Ray advantage is mainly due to the PS3 so that means someone must be using it. This site, along with many others, would have jumped at the chance connect a read error problem/rumor to the PS3.

SDG did say he “Wonders If”, so I can respect that… But MikeTechno is just talking nonsense.

Well there's a chance it may not stand against the test of time, and if that turns out to be a fact, I'll gladly retract my statement. Definitely wouldn't surprise me based on my experience with Sony.

But until then, I can only make judgements based on my personal experience (with my own unit), and what has been reported. Failure rates are low and my system runs whisper quiet (60gb model). It gets warm, but nothing out of the ordinary.

People on these forums needs to keep things objective. Statements such as: "Obviously[sic] most of the ps3's are sitting around collecting dust" have no factual basis for argument.

Time will tell.

I agree with all of that.

neither does any of joey/steve/dave... comments about the wii's collecting dust....

True, the 360 did have issues with overheating. What many people disregard is that they went to great lengths to correct the problem for all users, by extending the warranty to 3 years.

Sony, on the other hand, needed to have class action lawsuits taken against them, to get them to even acknowledge substandard drives in the PS2 (resulting in disk read errors). Combine this with their track record in other electronics fields (rootkits on cds, exploding laptop batteries, and patents for DRM that locks the disc to certain players...and contains provisions to require renewing the license to view discs you've bought) is it any wonder why people wonder what the PS3's issues will be?

let me guess once again hd dvd is going to be accused of having another firesale but the ps3 getting it's prices slashed doesn't mean anything

What Sony does is one but what everyone else does is the exception. You are figuring the shills like Dave, Joey, and the countless others out.