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Microsoft and the EU's Experiment in Socialism

By Scott M. Fulton, III, BetaNews

September 28, 2007, 5:00 PM

(continued from previous page)

During the days leading up to the Court of First Instance's decision, and for a few days afterward, EC commissioners including Neelie Kroes were quoted as having invited companies anywhere in the world that compete with dominant players that do business in Europe, to bring their cases to Europe for a fairer hearing.

It would be a novel concept in world history: a competitive market in law, where prospective plaintiffs shop around for the countries or venues where they feel they may have the best chance for success. Making such a market possible is the Internet - specifically, the notion that if you sell your products on the Web, you do business under the laws of all your customers everywhere in the world.

CARMI LEVY, Senior Vice President, AR Communications: To companies that feel they have been aggrieved within the American market, they now have that very real alternative within the EU that gives them redress where previously they had none. And it reflects a growing truth that we do live within a global market, and you can't simply sequester yourself within the North American market and expect that rulings and economic battles that happen globally don't affect you. In the age of the Internet, every company is now a global company, and the impact of the EU's ruling thus is much larger now than it would have been, say, 15 years ago...Had this happened 15 years ago, the Internet wouldn't have been the force that it is today, Microsoft could've very easily refocused its efforts on the North American market, and kind of left Europe to its own devices. Can't do that any more, because national boundaries have been torn down by the prevalence of the Internet, and there is no going back.

SCOTT FULTON, BetaNews: Well, just prior to the decision last week, Neelie Kroes made a statement that sounded like she was flexing her muscle a bit, saying if we get a verdict in our favor, here, one of the possibilities that we might look at is breaking up the company. Now, last I checked, this company was established in America. They could make a law saying, if you do business, you must do it as several companies.

CARMI LEVY: Yes, in theory they could've made that a prerequisite of doing business in Europe, so if Microsoft chose to have any presence in the European market on an ongoing basis, it would either do it by the EU's rules or it wouldn't do it at all. Truth of the matter is, at this point in time, there is no real, feasible means of forcing Microsoft to break itself apart within the European context. But just the fact that it's being said is an indication of just how big the EU's bluster has become.

...Really, that's what's happening: Microsoft happens to be in the unenviable position of being the first major American company that the EU decided to put in its place as a means of sealing its newfound political pedigree.

From here, the European Commission could keep right on swinging. It's taking on Google by questioning whether its intention in merging with DoubleClick is to absorb a colossal database of private information; taking on Apple by calling into question its right to charge iTunes customers in different member states different rates per download, even though Apple pays different royalty rates for each of those countries; taking on Intel by examining whether it had the right to enter into exclusive contracts with German retailers, rewarding them for not selling AMD parts.

But in dictating the behavior of manufacturers, will the European Commission inevitably be managing the behavior of customers - or more accurately, attempting to do so?

SCOTT FULTON: It's occurred to me that, assuming the European Commission does two of the things that have been suggested for it, and that have gained at least some measure of popularity there, the implications there run far deeper than, what does this mean to Microsoft? For instance, if they take this Globalisation Institute suggestion and de-polarize or de-couple all operating systems from PCs sold in Europe, what they're in effect doing is saying, "Hey, Dell, Hewlett-Packard, Lenovo, you're free, free to offer your customers all the operating systems you want to be able to offer them, just separately." And I know for a fact that Dell would say to this, "No! We don't want to do this! We were happy the way we were! Get your hands off of us, thank you very much. We're in Round Rock, Texas; you stand over there."

CARMI LEVY: But ultimately, companies like Dell, HP, Lenovo, they're market-driven companies. So what may very well happen is, they will respond to market demand, and if their customers increasingly demand one kind of operating system versus another, then they will move in that direction. It's interesting that Dell has now begun providing Linux as an option on some of their client machines. It'll be interesting to see, in the months to come, whether that will in fact continue and grow. In other words, the proof is in the pudding; let's see if Dell's experiment is borne out by sufficient market demand to keep it going.

At some point, you can legislate all you want, but you can't legislate end-user behavior. And if end users have shown a taste for Windows, and just like "I Want My MTV!" they don't want to give up their Windows, then no matter what the EU says or does, it's going to be very difficult to break that. Because let's not forget, at an operating system level, Windows' dominance comes with a price. There are already massive investments in infrastructure that supports the Windows operating system both at a server and a client level. And to move away from that is a very expensive and risk-prone proposition. And a lot of businesses, even if the legislative landscape changes significantly over the next couple of years, may be very reluctant to do that, to dismantle what they've already spent years and billions of dollars investing in, and training their people [in].

It certainly wouldn't be an overnight change, but it's the kind of shift that still leaves companies like Microsoft - that are in a dominant position - vulnerable because it opens up the door for more open and open source-type solutions to at least gain a foothold where previously they might not have had that foothold.

SCOTT FULTON: Yea, but assume they get that foothold, and assume that the EU's law were perfectly fair and balanced, to borrow a poorly-used term. That goes both ways. If you think about this, in the development of Web services, surely the open source people would agree with me that Microsoft is not the only innovator here. What if Europe stands up and says, "Okay, you guys developing Web service #X have not been sharing enough with Microsoft, and it's time that you guys be interoperable, so play nice and turn over your stuff to our special handler so we can turn it over to Microsoft."

CARMI LEVY: It'll be a lot more difficult for the EU to enforce that kind of behavior, because as soon as you move these services online as opposed to selling them in a shrink-wrapped box, your ability to control the market behavior becomes much less.

SCOTT FULTON: It hasn't stopped them before.

CARMI LEVY: No, it hasn't stopped them from trying, but the practical implications of it are much more difficult to police and enforce than they are with conventional software development, delivery, and deployment.

This may very well be the EU's last chance to enforce this kind of behavior, because the market is increasingly moving toward a Web-based paradigm. Whereas up until now, it's been almost exclusively shrink-wrapped; but at some point, you lose your ability to police that kind of behavior.

In other words, as the software market evolves to become less and less discrete, where the boundaries between "software products" become more vague than we've been accustomed to, maybe neither the European Commission nor the US Justice Dept. will be able to adequately regulate manufacturers' behavior, at least at first. The dominant players at that point may be the market concerns that are able to pool the most resources, that interoperate at a much tighter level, so as to become a kind of "virtual conglomerate."

And who will want to step up to the plate to regulate corporate behavior in that environment? Carmi Levy believes it may be the legislative body that, by that time, has had the most success with driving new efficiencies in corporate and manufacturing processes. Companies that are more aware of government oversight, he says, institute tighter controls on their own processes, expenditures, and strategies than they would have otherwise, even if those companies aren't quite certain it's all that fair.

CARMI LEVY: Even though in the short term it's perceived as bad news for some companies, in the long run, it could render them more competitive because they're simply forced to become better at what they do, and internal inefficiencies that might have been previously tolerated in a more free-flowing environment are no longer acceptable.

In many ways, these quasi-government authorities might be doing companies like Microsoft and companies unlike Microsoft a favor by making life more difficult for them, and forcing them to tow a more narrow line.

SCOTT FULTON: So socialism is good.

CARMI LEVY: In the sense that it forces honesty in how companies conduct themselves, and it forces introspection, and it forces transparency. And it forces the kind of behaviors, like multiple forms of checks and balances, that in a purely capitalistic regime simply wouldn't exist. So what it does is, at the extreme ends of the envelope, it tends to blunt the kinds of behaviors that really do turn some people off of capitalism - the extremes of sales and of competitiveness that can sometimes turn ugly. This forces companies to back away from the precipice, and really question how they can achieve success in a more balanced manner.

Unfortunately, sort of where we're at in the period of evolution is, I think the EU is just using it as an opportunity to grandstand, and we're probably going to see more grandstanding in the years to come as the EU establishes itself on the world stage. Unfortunately, by virtue of the fact that many of the global targets are American companies that have innovated and dominated their markets for the better part of the last generation, unfortunately, it's American companies that are going to stand in the way while the EU gains its footing on a global scale.

SCOTT FULTON: A very, very different world.

CARMI LEVY: Very much so, and it's going to continue to evolve. The concept of unabashed, unabridged American dominance in a global marketplace in many respects no longer exists, and this is yet another proof point of that.

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By jfplopes

edited Oct 2, 2007 - 9:24 AM

I can see some really valid points in this article but frankly I don't agree.
The argument that the EU position towards Microsoft has little to do with capitalist america vs socialist europe. America has had to control monopolist companies too several times in its history. For instance the move against TWA having exclusive international flights rights.
Or the split of AT&T.
The thing is. When a company gets so big that it can use its weigtht and power to "cheat" so to speak, and leave no chance and thus no space for evolution, it leaves governments no chance but to act and level the playing field.
Also it must be said. Microsoft is a non european company. What this pretty much means is that the EU looses even more than the US in terms of competitiveness. Things also work this way the opposite direction. Pretty much any nation tries to protect its "crown jewels" so to speak.
Its not about having a private company (capitalist system) vs a state company (socialist system).
If you really want to talk about this fairly you need to look at european nations one by one and see what are really the key players in the market. Are they state companies? or privatized ones?
The problem is preception. I think its time for people to realize that the so called extreme socialism is pretty much dead in europe...
Fact is most the biggest players in Europe are privatized companies. And in fact this are companies that are pressuring the EU to take action against Microsoft.
Bottom line is
EVERYONE WANTS A PIECE OF THE PIE...

Score: 0

By bourgeoisdude

edited Oct 1, 2007 - 1:21 PM

Having finally revisited this article the fourth time with a cleared mindset, it has become more and more obvious that I just don't understand the way that the EU works as well as I should.

Therefore, as far as the EU being socialist/communist/etc. goes, I guess I have over-analysed a geopolitical entity in which I was less than qualified to make such direct statements about.

While I may still "have bad feelings" about the EC, based on some of what I know of their members' upbringing in part, but also based on my personal beliefs best understood about the "Social cycle theory" (I'm not a full-fledged follower of the theory, but this description fits here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_cycle_theory), my thoughts of the EU and socialism remain proofless for the time being.

Hocuspokus: I am still just in my mid-twentes, and admit that sometimes my 'hasty generalisation' side still shows its ugly head through me. Thank you for the informative debate :)

Score: 0

By Hocuspokus

posted Oct 1, 2007 - 6:43 PM

"Thank you for the informative debate"

- My pleasure and back at you.

.....and mid-20's? Lucky you. I hope you make the most of it!

(and age is nothing but a number - and sadly some degree of physical decline! - but only fools think they are too old to ever learn anything new.)

Good luck to you.

Score: 0

By robmanic44

edited Oct 1, 2007 - 12:50 PM

Absolutely no one knows where this will take us. The EU certainly doesn't know.

It all falls under the law of unintended consequences. You may start in one direction and end up going in a completely different way.

The Chinese, who build most of the electronics in the world today, are bound to have a major impact on the future of the industry as well.

This goes way beyond OSs or even PCs. The US can no longer dictate policy in this area. This strikes at the heart of our domination of industries in many areas. Certainly we have lost domination of the auto industry and the television industry. We simply lack the political and financial muscle to tell other nations what their internal policies will be.

Recent events should indicate to all of us that we are witnessing a new place for America on the world stage. What that will be is anyone's guess.

Score: 0

By Avion Airplane

posted Oct 1, 2007 - 7:16 AM

WoW ! this Artical has stirred up a HORNETS NEST!

Score: 0

By bourgeoisdude

posted Oct 1, 2007 - 1:23 PM

Yeah. The word socialism tends to stir up debate anywhere...it's almost as bad as the word "Bush" :D

Score: 0

By PC_Tool

posted Oct 1, 2007 - 2:39 PM

Well, they are a horrible band, ya know.

Score: 0

By mongo lloyd

posted Oct 1, 2007 - 6:51 AM

Socialism? You have GOT to be s***ting me.

Score: 0

By cannie

edited Oct 1, 2007 - 6:04 AM

I wonder if the question should not be made just in the opposite way: Why am I not allowed to buy a new computer without forcing me to pay also for a preloaded OS just in that moment, anywhere in the world? Who is behind this?

Score: 0

By lazarus98

posted Oct 1, 2007 - 10:16 AM

Your not to my knowledge, and I buy hundreds of computers. I can buy a computer with no OS, or Linux just as easily as getting a computer with XP or Vista. Is it somehow different in the EU, that I don't know about, since i have not been there since before the EU took over?

Score: 0

By cannie

posted Oct 1, 2007 - 12:10 PM

Proffesionals always find a computer with no OS. But most people surrender when they ask for a computer in different stores and the common answer is "All we have is this".

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By Grazer

posted Oct 1, 2007 - 2:32 PM

Just because something is the "easiest" choice does not mean there are not others; nor should there be laws requiring all choices to be the same difficulty.

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By PC_Tool

posted Oct 1, 2007 - 2:39 PM

In fact, the only choices that should be "easiest" by the simple economics of supply and demand are the ones demanded by the majority. Since we, as geeks, are not the majority, our desires are not, and should not be, reflected in the mass market.

The products that meet our desires are out there. I made a similar comment below implying a direct (mostly) correlation between demand and marketshare. Bare PC's are out there. They're lack of marketshare, and thus visibility on the face of the market, are directly attributable to the near total lack of demand on the part of the majority of consumers.

It's a simple concept, really. I'm amazed how many people here are unable to comprehend it.

Score: 0

By pforbes

edited Oct 2, 2007 - 9:30 AM

Leaving apart the need to buy a computer, because nowadays it is one of the first needs both in America and EU, and taking into account in this point the power of advertising, as one of the essential elements which have influence in the average buyer's decision, I think the question could be resumed this way:

-Advertising + supply = sales

-No ads and no supply = no sales

If you consider:

-Advertising + supply = Hard + soft suppliers (they are the ones who advertise and sell).

By substituting elements, the equation becomes:

-Hard + soft suppliers = sales

(This is not valid for geeks, of course)

Score: 0

By Briantist

posted Oct 1, 2007 - 4:27 AM

Not really sure what this has to do with 'socialism' - that is about the common ownership of industry.

This EU decision is much more in the Sherman AntiTrust actions vein, which is 100% US capitalist! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherman_Antitrust_Act

Score: 0

By Lawrence01

edited Sep 30, 2007 - 10:30 PM

I can only hope that someday it will spread to the U.S. I would love to see computers become "naked" as Microsoft puts it. Perhaps then they will price their stuff better, not to mention all the crapware that are put on machines and with no real O/S to begin with nowadays, instead you get disks that restore your system (if your lucky to get one). And many make it so you have to create your bloatware restore disks.

Score: 0

By PC_Tool

posted Oct 1, 2007 - 9:52 AM

Lucky for you, you *can* buy a naked computer. You're a tech, you know where to find them.

The majority of users do *not* want a naked PC, hence the lack of them in the big retailers.

See how well that works?

What the majority of people want will easily be found in the market, and those products dominate the market. What the minority of people want, while still available only makes up a small minority of the market.

See how that works? Basic economics.

Score: 0

By khetos

posted Sep 30, 2007 - 3:13 PM

um, can i say the EU could if we allw them to become, the roman empire?, the republican councel? you cannot sneeze without the councels blessing?

why do we need some body with this much power? and force? do we need to be told what we want? i think choice, i think keeping a coice is a good thing, but if dell wants to sell windows with it, and no one wants that, dell will know, by lack of sales, and change for the consumers.

we want the companies to have to choice, or else we loose the coice as the consumer..

let the consumers make the choice wich effects the consumer.

thats like being told, you no longer get to vote, instead, the EU will tell you who gets to run for party, and you can choose of those parties.

so then the EU decides they only want [this guy] in power, and says theres no choice this time, [this guy] is the best, and this is how its gonna be.

can i say if this continues, we are going to have to eventually rebel, and then over throw the EU, it will be far worse then a currupt leader in iraq,[according to the states etc] but now you have somone who controls alot more then just one country... just my two sents

Score: 0

By Tenoq

posted Sep 30, 2007 - 11:44 PM

From what I can see (so far) the EU is only trying to give choices to consumers. Forcing 'naked' PCs will make companies offer PCs without an OS and then consumers can add a Windows install if they like.

At the moment, that choice is not available to consumers. If the EU is going to give me the choices that I want, then I'm all for it. I just had a look at Dell.com and just randomly clicked a PC to see if I could buy it without Windows and associated crapware: I can't. And I daresay the same applies for all the big OEMs.

Score: 0

By b0mmel

edited Oct 1, 2007 - 6:11 AM

You always could buy PCs without an OS here in Germany. They don't come totally naked but with a fig leaf (DOS). If you buy a DOS flavoured Laptop you save about 70 € compared to the one with Vista Home Premium.

Score: 0

By robertodecorazon

edited Sep 30, 2007 - 2:12 PM

Democracy describes a small number of related forms of government. The fundamental features of democracies include government based on majority rule and the consent of the governed, the existence of free and fair elections, the protection of political minorities, respect for basic human rights, equality before the law, due process, and political pluralism. Equality before the law means whay it says. Microsoft is not different.

Score: 0

By kbsoftware

posted Sep 30, 2007 - 2:43 PM

I'm sure you are right, but it kind of sucks to look at your comment and realize that I can't think of a country today that would fit that description of Democracy :)

Score: 0

By khetos

posted Sep 30, 2007 - 3:14 PM

i agree, there is no Democracy, those parties in power, are in power becasue of those that fund them, wich are the money bags, not the votes. if you want to vote, you need a big wallet... wich needs to change as well.

Score: 0

By robertodecorazon

edited Sep 30, 2007 - 1:58 PM

Monopolies have the tendency to fix prices and keep them at a high level and tend to prevent creativity and competition. Governments' duty is to amplify competition no to curtail it. Any other argument such as "the market will take care of itself without regulators" does not wash if it weren't for usa and EU central banks right now we all be in a serious depression. Goverments should act as facilitators for business treating everyone equally. Microsoft is not different. More competition more choices for society and good for the economy because we can buy goods and services cheaper. If I drive too fast I have to pay a fine because there are rules that say so the same applies to Microsoft. I am sure that everyone apply their own rules in their homes were they live.

Score: 0

By PC_Tool

posted Sep 30, 2007 - 1:21 PM

An easy explanation for the simple minds that are balking at the title:

In a purely non-socialist "utopia", government's only mandate is to defend the country and protect the rights of their citizens.

*Any* step outside of that boundary to regulate morality, business, or social works without presenting a case involving clear and present danger to the rights of others is a step towards socialism, tyranny, or totalitarianism. In the case of business, it is by default, socialistic.

The debate of whether or not such regulations are necessary is valid and useful. Debating whether or not the regulation of business is at all socialistic, by any measure, is pointless.

Score: 0

By Scotch Moose

edited Sep 30, 2007 - 5:15 PM

In a socialist "utopia" there is no competition or diversity of products, just one state administered generic line of products.

The EU is trying to brainstorm ideas with the objective of increasing the number and diversity of PC products, and allowing more competitors to bring more new innovations to market.

That does not look like socialism, not even a little bit.

You might be hung up in two dimensional space but there are other directions besides left and right.

Score: 0

By PC_Tool

posted Oct 1, 2007 - 9:48 AM

*laughs*

Any attempt by the government to control the market in any way is socialist in nature. I never commented on how well or how badly it related to a utopian view of socialism.

Step off the high-horse for a second and just *try* to be logical. I am *not* calling the EC socialist.

Score: 0

By Scotch Moose

posted Oct 1, 2007 - 11:38 AM

"Any attempt by the government to control the market in any way is socialist in nature."

No it is not.

You don't get to redefine a word just because you want to stick a label with negative connotations on normal responsible government behavior.

Every government of any type must regulate business, in socialism the government also administers the businesses.

Score: 0

By PC_Tool

posted Oct 1, 2007 - 12:30 PM

lmao...

Every government of any type must regulate business

Wrong. Again.

Look, you can go ahead and define it however you want. This is ridiculous. Any government control of any industry is a socialistic in nature. Go ahead and argue all you want, but it remains true. Just because it is necessary in some cases (some more arguable than others) does not make it any less socialistic in nature.

What you seem to be stuck on is the negative connotation. I've stated several times that *many* (of not all) countries have laws like this out of (arguable) necessity. This does not by definition make it evil, or wrong, or bad.

Just because a word has negative connotations in the general public doesn't mean you get to redefine it either. :)

Score: 0

By Scotch Moose

posted Oct 1, 2007 - 1:25 PM

If the EU was proposing nationalizing Microsoft and all the PC builders, seizing their bank accounts, and displacing their executives, then socialism would an accurate label.

I really should not be wasting my time. I know I can't pry loose your stubborn embrace of ignorance, but I did hope for better from Scott. Using inaccurate, emotionally charged, labels is a mark of yellow journalism. I guess what we have here is the National Enquirer of technology news.

Score: 0

By PC_Tool

posted Oct 1, 2007 - 2:34 PM

If the EU was proposing nationalizing Microsoft and all the PC builders, seizing their bank accounts, and displacing their executives, then socialism would an accurate label.

Good, you're getting there. Now all you need to do is follow that exact line of thought to it's logical conclusion. Any step towards the above quote is socialistic in nature.

The EU is proposing the imposition on a specific market a product of their devising. This is a step in the direction you quoted above. While it does not go whole-hog into socialism, it is socialistic in nature.

Thanks for playing.

Score: 0

By Scotch Moose

posted Oct 1, 2007 - 4:17 PM

Regulating a dysfunctional market so that it will perform better is not in the same direction, the same neighborhood, or anywhere nearby nationalizing an industry.

Score: 0

By bourgeoisdude

edited Oct 1, 2007 - 4:31 PM

Hmm--this is a tough one...

PC_TOOL, any ideas? A definition of nationalization, maybe?

So correct me if I word this incorrectly...are you basically saying that having more industry regulation from the national level wouldn't be considered "in the same direction, the same neighborhood, or anywhere nearby nationalizing an industry"?

Score: 0

By PC_Tool

edited Oct 1, 2007 - 5:16 PM

I'm still trying to get over "regulating a dysfunctional market".

One has to wonder how the hell forcing a market to sell a product that they have rightly determined very few people want does *anything* of the sort.

You don't need to define nationalization. Any government control of an industry, no matter how small or for what purpose, necessary or not, is more socialistic than not. He's just hung up on the fact that it's not the end (true socialism), but the means to it (more socialistic than capitalistic or free-market).

Regardless of the good/bad names you want to put on any market, be it social, free, or capitalist, government control in any form swings towards social.

Score: 0

By Scotch Moose

posted Oct 1, 2007 - 5:07 PM

Nationalizing is the take over of corporate administration by government officials.

Score: 0

By PC_Tool

posted Oct 1, 2007 - 5:09 PM

...and forcing a market to sell a product that it would not normally sell isn't a step in that direction?

Give us all a break. You're just being absurd now.

Score: 0

By LRN

posted Sep 30, 2007 - 6:30 AM

"Republic" and "Democracy" means "Hey, guys! We believe that you're smart enough to represent our interests as a nation(s), so we make you The Government. You may do what you want, as long as we are pleased with your actions".
If europeans think that EU government actions is ok, or if they just don't care enough, then it is O.K. It's not about "right" or "wrong", it's about desires of people. You should have eigter a big army/police force, or a people's support - and you may do whatever you want. USSR had people's support in early XX century and army/police in in mid XX century. And they did a lot of things. And now EU government does.
Now, about "freedom". Thing is, "freedom" and "security" are mutually exclusive things. To get more security you have to give up some freedom. If EU people wants security (less agressive market), they will agree with more government market regulations, than any USer will allow. And because a right to choose whatever OS you will use on your PC is a form of freedom, this particular reguilation is considered a good deal, since it gets both freedom and security.

Score: 0

By PC_Tool

posted Sep 30, 2007 - 12:44 PM

What you describe is Mob Rule. Good luck with that, let us know how it works for ya.

Score: 0

By rsx508

posted Sep 29, 2007 - 9:47 PM

Coming next: cars without engines or wheels. pop tarts without filling. and then... (dramatic music)... xbox/wii and ps3 consoles with no o/s installed either.

Score: 0

By Hocuspokus

posted Sep 30, 2007 - 8:34 PM

"Coming next"

- Compare apples with apples, not oranges, eh?

The car analogy might work if the car manufacturer made you run their car on their fuel.

I can already opt for different wheels and tyres if I choose.

An individual pop-tarts filling is hardly an optional changeable part, it is intrinsic to the 'good'.

I suppose there might be a remote chance this could come to be seen in similar ways with game consoles but the OS is hardly the issue there, it's the games and there is no shortage of free access to the market by independents or parties other than the producers there.

Score: 0

By rsx508

posted Oct 1, 2007 - 11:13 PM

It's called sarcasm. You should try it sometime.

Score: 0

By dvferret

posted Sep 30, 2007 - 10:21 AM

'Tear

Score: 0

By methuselah

posted Sep 29, 2007 - 9:14 PM

"not American" to stop a company from abusing their monopoly?? Didn't IBM get tagged for doing just that, many years ago? They were told they had to compete fairly, just as the EU told Microsoft now. And Microsoft wasn't told to wait for others to catch up, just to play fair, and I don't think that's foreign to American ideals.

Score: 0

By bourgeoisdude

edited Sep 29, 2007 - 4:57 PM

deleted

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By DatabaseBen

edited Sep 29, 2007 - 4:20 PM

The EU's attempt and endeavors are commendable because they are insuring that consumers (not big business) have “the choice”.

Besides pc's should have been sold without an o.s. from the beginning of time. However, at least now, the EU will enforce democratic values and allow its people to buy the o.s. they want for the pc they buy.

Fundamentally, Microsoft is a “dictatorship” -either you do it their way or else.

Microsoft however, is not alone and many American Companies are equally guilty.

Because of failures in our American Government Big Business prospers without limits while the working class become poorer.

The EU is doing a GOOD JOB. We Americans should be so lucky to have a government with the ballocks to stand up to Big Business.

Score: 0

By khetos

posted Oct 1, 2007 - 7:08 AM

what id like to see next, competitor companies now being able to buy out, and take over.

no more of this one company, with sister companies, owning the markets.

Score: 0

By pforbes

edited Sep 30, 2007 - 12:49 PM

"Microsoft however, is not alone and many American Companies are equally guilty".

An old proverb says: "Birds of the same feather fly together".

Score: 0

By bourgeoisdude

posted Sep 29, 2007 - 4:57 PM

Fundamentally, Microsoft is a “dictatorship” -either you do it their way or else.

Or else what? You do it somebody else's way? The fact that we choose to do it Microsoft's way implies there is a choice, no?

Score: 0

By DatabaseBen

edited Sep 30, 2007 - 10:33 AM

an "alternative" is not always a "choice".

Big Business has the "power to manipulate" markets and governments whilst the little guys like yourself and small companies have none.

Ultimately it is the governments that control the gates that determine wheher or not to allow GIANTS to come in and stomp around without care for the smaller things under their feet. And if one GIANT is allowed to come in then others will take that opportunity as well.

Then after everything has been stomped into the ground and nothing is left, they will move on to other fertile grounds, eg untapped markets and governments.

Don't be so determined to support big business. Frankly they do not care if you "bourgeoisdude" live or die. The owners and executives are wealthy beyond your imagination. They are simply whining from the EU that they want more...

Score: 0

By khetos

posted Oct 1, 2007 - 7:13 AM

my dad stated that he herd about a organization in the states, one of the states, where a guy builds a trust fund, and its in a trust fun, in another trust fund, and another etc..

they aproach farmers, and say,: your land is worth 3 million on market to be sold to make realistate, and only worth 200,000 for farm land use, heres what we will do for you, we will give you 3 million to do as you please now, but from that we will keep the 200,000, and you sign this contract, stating that you can keep your land as long as you want, its your land, but when you decide to sell it, it must be sold for the farm land cost, to somone using it for farm land.

meaning, farmers dont get screwed into selling their land for commercial use, and it goes to what the land is best used for, and they dont get shafted on the money they get for the land.

too bad the goverment did not think of this, it took one man, almost 15 years fighting for this.

Score: 0

By bourgeoisdude

edited Sep 30, 2007 - 5:55 PM

an "alternative" is not always a "choice".

Semantics. Who decides whether it is choice or alternative? Ultimately, whomever answers the question decides. Point: I believe there are many other choices out there that can do just as well as Microsoft, if one is willing to seek them out. To me, Microsoft is purely choice.

Want network security? Microsoft can be secured just as well as any other solutions IMO--but what about Linux and other *nix products, you say? Want a diverse platform that is easy to use? Some flavors of Linux can be very user-friendly, and some people swear they are worlds better than Microsoft.

At my job, we are considering moving a mixed-mode NT/2000 network over to mostly Linux servers. Whoa--did anyone else get that? You mean we can actually...consider not HAVING to use Microsoft products? This in and of itself proves that there is choice for Network OS selection.

We also support a couple of Mac OS users. Oh, and the products that allow us to communicate with Mac OS boxes are MICROSOFT products, by the way. Were there other products out there? Of course, but whomever setup the network before our current IT group got here chose Microsoft, and that solution suffices for now.

Want Microsoft AND something else? Work extra to get two companies to play nicely--the same is true with every other company in every industry in the world--it isn't Microsoft's problem. In fact, as I pointed out in the above paragraph, Microsoft can be a more universal platform than Unix from the driver standpoint--Windows supports more hardware natively than Mac OSX, *nix, and Netware combined.

In many ways, Microsoft creates more choice than open source does. Now I'm sure that line could be quoted by itself to make me look foolish, but put in context, it's easy to understand why everyone else is playing catchup to Microsoft. Not because they can't make good products, but because Microsoft makes better products.

In the end, isn't the goal for better products at cheaper prices? Is Microsoft really destroying that process? Why isn't HP being penalized for including their printer software with every one of their PCs? Isn't HP Dominant right now? Who CHOOSES what company is dominant and what company isn't? Politicians that could be good or evil and we just have to obey their decisions, whether they are right or wrong? Shouldn't consumers choose?

EU needs more checks and balances, so that IF those at the top decide they want to rule the universe, the people can stop them. At the same time there need to be absolutes, of course, but even the best intentions could ruin the economy, endanger citizens, etc. Why allow the EC to have absolute final say? Gripe about Bush all you want, HE CAN DO LITTLE OF ANYTHING WITHOUT ENOUGH PEOPLE IN CONGRESS TO SUPPORT HIM. And if the American people sign enough petitions or scream loudly enough, even Congress cannot overide the wishes of the American people. There are varying degrees as to who can do what, and we as Americans cannot simply run the country as we wish--government still does as it will whether I agree or not--but overwhelming majorities always supercede individual entities.

If the EC does something that the majority of Europeans disagree with, are there any actions you can take to keep their power in check? Do Europeans have any choice in these matters? I really do wish to know if there are any...please post URL's or something.

Score: 0

By khetos

posted Oct 1, 2007 - 7:25 AM

i think whats funny in this case, is the EU stands for standardisation, and well, microsoft, as mentioned in the post above, allows the most standardization, for document sharing, driver sharing, and well, most compatable, so i dont know why the spin when to be all against microsoft...

i agree that if microsoft needs to change the os, then, so does apple, and if thats the case, well what about the iphone? or the zune? why limit it to just PCs? why is apple allowed to sell their iphone with just the force of getting the iphone os on it?, thats no choice for a consumer?

Oh snap, yes it is, they can choose to buy it, or to not...

and i think its funny, and agree with the HP printer software as well, but what can we do?

Score: 0

By DatabaseBen

posted Sep 30, 2007 - 7:08 PM

When pc's are sold without software, the consumer will have the real choice of choosing what operating system and software they want on it.

If they choose Linux and open source compatiable software over Microsoft and thier products, then the consumer will be saving a lot of money.

I think this is the foundation for the issue at hand - money and market share.

Score: 0

By swlaurier

posted Oct 2, 2007 - 3:25 PM

Really Ben.
Since the PC Manufactures are getting deep discounts on OS's and other software for their machines. Now if the EU does mandate this, Microsoft now could go to the Manufactures and say no we are not giving you any discounts on any of the OS's other software that are sold in Europe and to the distributors as well.
So now a Customer comes in to buy a pc for I.E. $1000.00. Now the salesman needs to know what it going to be used for to recomend an Os and software. if the customer has a family most likely will want Correspondance , Bussiness, Music and Games.
So let's take look at the alternatives.

Microsoft, Compatible with All Hardware, All Software.

Apple, Propritory Hardware/Software. Not compatible will existing hardware or software.

Linux etc., Not Compatible with All Hardware,I.E. Nic Cards, Wireless, Video Cards, Sound Cards. Software, Open Source Alternatives to Some MS and other Programs. May run Some MS programs under Virtual Machine program. Not Compatible with majorty of game programs. May not run with existing hardware.

Would that be a fair assestment of the alternatives Ben?

So if I'm purchasing for a family?
I'll have no problems with MS.

Apple I'll have to buy All new Hardware and Software.

Linux, May have to buy new items to be compatible with OS.

Most likely I would buy MS. Now I have to Buy the OS.
The manufactures may have a package but since they will no longer be getting a discount it will cost more. Let's say $500.00 more.

Now to buy ready to go pc right now cost aprox. $1300.00. That means I'll have to pay $200.00 more for the same PC. And I have not included taxes that would have to be paid.

If the EU goes ahead with this Who get's hurt?
MS won't. They will make more.
PC manufactures won't. They will make more.
Even the Government won't. They will make more on Taxes.
So it's down to the Consumer again that get hurt by a Decsion (sp?) by a Government Body.

Ben I do Like Linux OS, But until they fix the problems with Hardware Compatiablity and get get Major Software Companies on side Linux will be a poor second choice.

Score: 0

By pforbes

edited Sep 29, 2007 - 7:44 PM

I'd rather have the right and the opportunity to choose between a blank comp or a preloaded one, and in this second case also the right and the opportunity to choose between different preloaded systems, doesn't matter if I am in America or in EU.

Score: 0

By khetos

posted Oct 1, 2007 - 7:26 AM

the EU i think means that for instance, dell has to offer Linux, Mac os, and Windows as choices, i dont think they mean a blank pc.? i could be wrong though.

Score: 0

By lvthunder

posted Oct 1, 2007 - 11:02 AM

I bet Steve Jobs would pull Apple out of Europe before he sells OSX on Dell machines.

Score: 0

By pforbes

edited Oct 1, 2007 - 2:15 PM

I'd rather buy the computer in a box and my favourite OS in another one, or even buy the OS somewhere else. Or maybe I already have an OS of my own and I don't need to pay for it.

Score: 0

By Treize

edited Sep 29, 2007 - 3:37 PM

While I don't like Microsoft I feel that the EU is overreaching in their powers. If I was Microsoft, I'd stop selling products in Europe until the EU reconsidered their ruling. I think that this is setting bad legal precedent, while I'd like some systems to be packaged without an OS, I think that this could lead to some problems down the road that we haven't thought of yet in other businesses.

Score: 0

By kronix2

edited Sep 29, 2007 - 5:16 PM

"If I was Microsoft, I'd stop selling products in Europe until the EU reconsidered their ruling"

Great, fantastic. Microsoft lose access to their most lucrative market, and their software division's profits are cut in half. Linux and OpenOffice gain mainstream acceptance.

Win-win.

Score: 0

By khetos

posted Oct 1, 2007 - 7:28 AM

imagine, just like this iphone update issue, if microsoft decided to do an update, and make all the EU windows not work properly anymore,

also there was a comment about getting the EU to stop using windows, i dont think thats how its going to be,

any time a ruling is past, in some form of goverment, you have to understand its a two sided rule, it means no one else can do this anymore, except us, becasue were special.

Score: 0

By Treize

edited Sep 30, 2007 - 1:30 AM

Most users would not know how to use Linux and would demand that the OEMs be able to package Windows again. To be honest, maybe they shouldn't do anything of the sort, and instead appeal to the consumers to lobby the government.

Score: 0

By bourgeoisdude

posted Sep 29, 2007 - 2:18 PM

"I have ever deemed it fundamental for the United States never to take active part in the quarrels of Europe. Their political interests are entirely distinct from ours. Their mutual jealousies, their balance of power, their complicated alliances, their forms and principles of government, are all foreign to us. They are nations of eternal war. All their energies are expended in the destruction of the labor, property and lives of their people." --Thomas Jefferson to James Monroe, 1823. ME: 15:436

"Peace, commerce and honest friendship with all nations--entangling alliances with none, I deem [one of] the essential principles of our government, and consequently [one of] those which ought to shape its administration." --Thomas Jefferson: 1st Inaugural Address, 1801. ME 3:321

I believe TJ was correct then, and I dare say that it is just as true today as it was then.

Score: 0

By DragonScout

edited Sep 30, 2007 - 11:51 PM

Ok, let's re-count;

* How many wars has European countries started in the last 50 years? How many invasions?

* How many wars has USA started in the last 50 years? How many invasions?

* Who is the head of NATO (no alliances, was it?)?

* How many percent of the EU citizen live below the UN set poverty line? What is that number in USA?

* "honest friendship with all nations" - It must be the reason why Americans are the top kidnapping and terrorist targets in the world then?

Thomas Jefferson and other founding fathers of USA were extraordinary people with great vision, but their ideals have been, and is being, diluted on a daily basis.

Score: 0

By bourgeoisdude

edited Oct 1, 2007 - 11:10 AM

Thomas Jefferson and other founding fathers of USA were extraordinary people with great vision, but their ideals have been, and is being, diluted on a daily basis.

My point exactly...

...though I may not agree with all of the points you added above that point. Also, by TJ's mentality, the UN is stupid. It's nothing but an attempt to fool people into believing that nations that have fundamentally different values and beliefs can actually get along with each other.

Iran will NEVER fully agree with the US.

The US will NEVER fully agree with the way Saudi Arabia works.

Heck, even England will never agree with the US, and vice versa.

The diplomats and officials who tell us otherwise are lying. There is power in words--but only so much. It can dictate your life and affect others, but words cannot control others, no matter how many times you repeat them.

Score: 0

By khetos

edited Oct 1, 2007 - 7:41 AM

i dont know about that, id think i could be ignorant, but, the USA goes to the UN and states, were going to war against these people, and your helping us NOW, becasue i WANT it my WAY!, and the UN says, whoa, are you crazy? you cant do this USA, you need to think about this a bit more, and what does the USA state? oh yah, your doing it NOW MY WAY or else..

so off goes france and a few others, to help out, because they have to HELP their USA dictator, or else when s*** hits the fan for them, they need the USA, ...

soo yah CANADA decides they arnt going to help, and the USA makes a big FUSS< and posts all over and fights with CANADA to help out, untill finally CANADA with all the pressure, and force, help out..

i tihnk its become the opposite now from the quotes from thomas jefferson...

the states brain washes their people into going to war with another nation, and wasting millions of lives, so that the USA gets the oil, and the control of another NATION,
why does this country need democrecy? did they ask for it? did they vote for it, were they even aware this was happening before hand?

why push your views on somone else? theres a difference between education, and blinders.

do you think if france said oh jeeze we NEED all you from the UN to do this, and try and force it like the USA, would the UN or USA or anyone else put soo much into that ? would the events have unfolded like they did in the USAs favor?

Score: 0

By Poof

posted Sep 29, 2007 - 1:39 PM

Well, what I'd like to know is what does this do to Apple? Will this force them to ensure their OS isn't locked to a specific hardware set? Also, Apple computers will now be 'blank' until you install your OSX/Windows on it...

That'll be fun for users.

Score: 0

By aredo

edited Sep 29, 2007 - 10:54 AM

What has socialism anything to do with that proposal ? It's pure liberalism and pure capitalism to sell PCs without any OS installed, where is socialism in that ? There is none, that's the point.
Having had Microsoft able to dictate that their OSes must be pre-installed or PCs shouldn't be sold.. that is true socialism like in communistic regimes.

Score: 0

By bourgeoisdude

posted Sep 29, 2007 - 3:46 PM

Having had Microsoft able to dictate that their OSes must be pre-installed or PCs shouldn't be sold.. that is true socialism like in communistic regimes.

Again--how can Microsoft be socialistic? He isn't even trying to become a political leader--he's a businessman. The big difference in capitalism and socialism is not as much in the how to regulate, but who should regulate: capitalism favors business, socialism favors government.

Score: 0

By bourgeoisdude

posted Sep 29, 2007 - 2:37 PM

"What has socialism anything to do with that proposal ? It's pure liberalism and pure capitalism to sell PCs without any OS installed, where is socialism in that ? There is none, that's the point."

To argue that it is socialistic may be a purely subjective argument; however, there are many evidences of this.

First and foremost, the EC, for all intents and purposes, is the government per se. There may even be arguments saying the EC is separate, but looking at the basic functions of government, that is a difficult point to prove.

Seeing the EC as the government, they are, essentially, flexing their arms and showing that they own the free market. Even Webster's dictionary defines socialism as "any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods", and since the EC is essentially the final authority, I'd say the fate of the European Free Market ultimately rests in their hands here.

They are supposed to represent the people, of course, just as any republic, but can the people of EU do anything to object? Are there any measures that can FORCE the EC to listen to the people? Perhaps there are measures in place to ensure the EC doesn't obtain too much power without any checks and balances, but I don't know of any personally.

Getting back to your question, the proposal in and of itself may not be pure "socialism", but the implied powers that the EC have based on the proposals alone would suggest that they are indeed a socialistic society.

Score: 0

By Hocuspokus

posted Sep 29, 2007 - 9:12 PM

"First and foremost, the EC, for all intents and purposes, is the government per se."

- Stop right there.

It isn't.

It just isn't.....

..... and I know many Americans like to see it as 'kinda like'.......but no amount of trying to 'shoe-horn' the EU & the 27 sovereign nation states that comprise it into some sort of a parallel with the USA and the states that comprise the USA is ever going to get this right.

If you honestly think otherwise you're plain wrong.

The EU is run and controlled by the member states governments.
The Presidents, Prime Ministers and Ministers of the day decide policy along with their nominated national representatives (who are the 'Commissioners') in the EU commission.
We do have an EU Parliament with directly elected MEP (members of the European Parliament) but the sovereign national Govs are very careful to limit the powers of the EU.

This is why some people think they can point to a 'democratic deficit' in the EU.
But that POV fails to account for the fact that the sovereign nation states are extremely mindful not to lose too much power to the EU.
It is in fact the truth that explodes the myth about an 'all powerful' EU.

"Seeing the EC as the government, they are, essentially, flexing their arms and showing that they own the free market."

- No.
The sovereign nation states have freely agreed to act collectively within a framework of trading law, this was never imposed by 'the EU'.

You really are 'putting the cart before the horse' if you insist on using this kind of description of what is going on.

'We' have effectively 'pooled' some of our economic sovereignty because we know that individually and alone we cannot stand up to the world's largest economies and corporations.
But 'tough titty' to them cos the penny dropped long ago and we really have had the sense to choose to cooperate on these matters and act on this collectively.

"They are supposed to represent the people"

- Well actually the EU is a collective of the sovereign nation states' Governments acting together.

The EU is not our 'Gov' so you're way off imagining the relationships are like this.

"Perhaps there are measures in place to ensure the EC doesn't obtain too much power without any checks and balances, but I don't know of any personally."

- Well, and I'm not trying to cause you any offence, but you really don't have an accurate idea of what the EU actually is IMO.

"Getting back to your question, the proposal in and of itself may not be pure "socialism"

- No, it's not actually 'socialism' by any credible and accurate definition of the term at all.

"but the implied powers that the EC have based on the proposals alone would suggest that they are indeed a socialistic society."

- Nonsense, come off it.

That is so broad a claim that it could apply to every political body that chooses to impose law and regulation upon business.

It's absurd to claim this is 'socialism'.

Nowhere in these proposals is there any hint or mention of 'the means of production' coming under the 'collective ownership of the people'.
That's what 'socialism' actually is.

But sadly like the term 'liberal' the word 'socialism' is being used in the USA to describe something which is not actually correct to the word/noun/term.

Score: 0

By khetos

edited Oct 1, 2007 - 7:50 AM

i just thought of something here...

if DELL is an american company, on american soil, the EU has no power over DELL at all, where the issue is, is were DELL sells out their factories here, and closes them down, and then ships off to a europian country, and starts up shop there...

the EU is saying while in our countries, selling and making in our countries, this is what we want...

its the same as the USA saying, well when you sell those products in america, we want them to pass these standards, and rules...

to some degree, they have much higher standards then us, and the USA, what makes that bad? maybe were just behind, just like form a technical aspect,

look at CARPCS, you cant buy one and get support like you can in the europian countries, they are just ahead of us in certian areas, and have in a way been a good thing for us, as the people, but not as the businesses..

i think though id not want to see the EU eventuallt run just by one, like the republic. :)

just as a side note though, id never want to see the states take part of the EU, they would just manipulate and mucsle there way around just like they do with the UN

Score: 0

By bourgeoisdude

edited Sep 30, 2007 - 6:22 PM

"First and foremost, the EC, for all intents and purposes, is the government per se."

Stop right there.

It isn't.

It just isn't.....


...The EU is run and controlled by the member states governments...

Okay--so the EU is 'controlled' by the government, then. I stand corrected.

Nowhere in these proposals is there any hint or mention of 'the means of production' coming under the 'collective ownership of the people'.
That's what 'socialism' actually is.


...so you read the definition, but yet...well, let me put it here again:

"any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods" (emph. added)

They dare not directly link themselves with a pure socialistic form of government...it could be easily explained that it is their ultimate goal, however. Then again there are other explainations for their stance, which again makes this point purely subjective I suppose.

But sadly like the term 'liberal' the word 'socialism' is being used in the USA to describe something which is not actually correct to the word/noun/term.

I agree that there are far too many words being misused. This is the biggest problem with the English language--too many nouns, adjectives and adverbs. Great language for writing poetry, but horribly inspecific and subjective, just like this argument over how this particular word is used.

Well, and I'm not trying to cause you any offence, but you really don't have an accurate idea of what the EU actually is IMO.

No offence taken. I will agree that I do not know even half of the specifics as far as EU law goes, what gets done where, how many votes it takes for this (or no votes at all) to be approved, etc. I don't even know all there is to know of our own government, but I do have a pretty good idea of how it works. Studying the differing forms and theories of government is a fairly simple study at its core...the specifics are the things that take doctorates just to understand.

Score: 0

By Hocuspokus

edited Sep 30, 2007 - 8:18 PM

"Okay--so the EU is 'controlled' by the government, then. I stand corrected."

- 'Governments (plural) would be more accurate, and there are 27 of them.

All with their own different 'take' on things and priorities.
Bear in mind those sovereign nation states (most with long histories) are a world away from the states or counties within a country (in all sorts of ways in relation to international law etc etc)

If you start to give this the consideration it deserves you'll start to get the idea that the EU as some kind of proto-'superstate' is a fantasy reserved for those with an agenda all of their own.
It simply does not reflect any credible reality.

The 'superstate' idea is, frankly, absurd.......an absurdity proved by the 'no' results of the 2 referendum held in France and Holland in 2005 on that so-called 'constitution'
(which was actually nothing of the sort, it was originally described as such as a handy 'short-hand' term for the treaty which back-fired mightily.
It actually was a treaty to update previous treaties originally designed for a 7/9/12 state EEC etc to today's 27 state EU)

Even if you do believe there is a serious movement in Europe to create such a thing (and there are those who would prefer that) it is quite clear that the peoples of the sovereign nation states do not.
.....but that is a world away from claiming they are unhappy with the EU (it really doesn't rate that highly on many people's 'radar' here) or that they want out.

"so you read the definition"

- No mate, I'm a reasonably educated guy in my 40's from the UK.
I just happen to know what the correct definition of 'socialism' is.

"They dare not directly link themselves with a pure socialistic form of government."

- We actually have very few 'socialist' national Governments in the EU and the EU itself sure as hell isn't 'socialist'.

There are such things as regional aid and transfer payments to mitigate the effects of the Euro (for instance) and we have aid schemes to farmers and we even have state lending to some industries but none of these things are 'socialist' per se.

They can be but are not necessarily......it would be like saying 'they breathe air in a socialist country' so therefore your country has socialist attributes.
That might be so on a very superficial level but it is nevertheless an absurd parallel.

Europe is not 'socialist'.
We are a capitalist group of countries, a slightly different version of capitalism I agree but it most certainly is nothing like any credible definition of 'socialism'.

"..it could be easily explained that it is their ultimate goal, however."

- .....and I'd say that was to utterly misunderstand the truth of the situation.

If you imagine 'Europe' is some sort of egalitarian collective you are kidding yourself.
It's true that, generally speaking, there is not the vast chasm between the least well off and the most well off in many European societies, but the gap is there - and in some EU countries it is far greater than in others.
IIRC the gap currently tends to be somewhere around what it was in the USA in the late 1960s & early 1970s - which I doubt was a socialist America by any sane definition?

We do not btw have harmonised or, as some might prefer to pretend it might be, 'EU-imposed' (or even better 'dictated') uniform taxation or welfare systems.

" Then again there are other explainations for their stance, which again makes this point purely subjective I suppose."

- Precisely, those who really want to imagine a 'red' Europe undoubtedly won't let the facts get in the way.

"Great language for writing poetry, but horribly inspecific and subjective, just like this argument over how this particular word is used."

- Ha! I agree. Well put.

.....and yet for all that it's precise enough to have