Whatever competes against iPod will need to be more powerful, easier to use, and cooler looking. Let's face it, most people using an iPod aren't concerned with "computer-like" features. They want something that works and looks cool. Everything else so far has been received by the public as copy-cat wanna-be with an equal price tag. Any marketing person will tell you that unless you differentiate your product significantly and CHARGE LESS, it will never catch up.

There are some nice creative products out there. There is a 40G MP3 player don't recall the name, you can change the battery, it is a little bigger then the iPod but at $200 that is 1/2 the price of the iPOD. The problem is that people don't realize that these other products are around

Actually it is easy to create a products which can beat ipod.
create a multi purpose device: Mp3 player, wma player, with big capacity, and can be used as data storage, ETC but the price must be competitive.

and maybe a better if a PDA with that capability. why we need to buy separate device if we can get from a PDA with additional functions as Mp3 player. but we need a harddisk in the PDA, and the memory built in aslo need bigger so the performance also better.

lets see this holiday :)

screw wma... mp3 or ogg for me

Microsoft Student 2006
This is the newly released version, any version released before is corrupted or fake.
Very high speed download using eMule.

ed2k://|file|Student%202006-Ind.iso|3303495680|65541DA43CCEAD96C5748C53ED45B972|/

if they make something with lossless audio, small fits in pocket, with freedom to choose codec, and very high frequency rate, i'll check it out.

Ha! Gotta love taking sides between two monopolies run by two arrogant bas****s.

Apple, for all you newcomers, is not a kind gentle company. They are the originator of my way or the highway as far as hardware and OS. They deliberately killed off the old Apple OS to make people switch to the Mac.

Ooooh! MS has a DRM system, so? Talk to the media companies, they are the ones who insist on that.

I suppose the Apple DRM is way better. For what reason? You DO NOT own the music. You have permission to use it. If you owned it, you would not need a license and a key now would you?

Nah, no black turtlenecks for me. I'll stick with MP3s on my portable and APE/FLAC at home.

Microsoft SIMPLY MAKES PRODUCTS FOR EVERYONES NEEDS. Im a Mac lover also though. Lets face it APPLE kicked their butts with the ipod and its too late to turn back now.

I agree, but check out this link...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8926123/

pretty crazy!

I don't know why people diss MS so much. I've been running XP pro on my computer, and I haven't had to do a ctrl-alt-del since I installed it. I love my friends Zen touch (and if i didn't have sirius in my car I'd have one).

Microsoft gives me the ability to choose my own hardware, build my own systems, and make them as crappy/great as I want. Apple doesn't give you choices...your stuck with what they think you should have.

You can diss Microsoft all you want, but I love the products they release because they've always worked for me, and worked well. I had my Apple days, and I spent more time behind the computer unplugging the thing than I did in front of the screen (which reminds me, I was at CompUSA today and was messing around with a nice new mac and the thing locked up and a service dude had to come get the thing back online.)

Good luck with the new media players...I'm looking forward to seeing them.

You are not alone my friend

For me, it's format support that's the most important feature, and I doubt any player that MS puts its brand on would ever natively play any formats other than WMA and MP3, because giving people real choices isn't something MS cares a whit about.

WMA has been digital trash since its inception, and MP3 is relatively poor now, in contrast to Ogg and MusePack.

I'd only consider a player of theirs if I knew I could get Rockbox firmware for it, so it could play Ogg, MusePack, Speex, and WavPack or FLAC.

Why not get an iAudio? Flash memory, FM Radio/Recorder, voice recorder, color screen, more battery life, 1/2 the size, and more than 1/2 the weight than an iPod. I love mine.

I'm skeptical. If they plan on dethroning Apple, its going to take a lot of time. I don't see it easily happening and I don't see it happening in the near future.

iPOD is just about the outside....
It has many flaws, can't play WMA, OGG - can't connect w/o a driver to a windows machine.

iRiver's product may be unsexy, but are better..

I'm afraid to buy an MS MP3 Player 'cause I'm afraid my music might crash....

I have windows XP PRO. Been running it since 2002. The last crash I was was when I ran windows 98. But then again I take care of my system. I have seen the iPod crash and loose songs too.

my psp is good enough :P i might get a windows based player only if i buy xbox 360, so that i can sync easily.

my psp is good enough :P i might get a windows based player only if i buy xbox 360, so that i can sync easily.

"my psp is good enough :P i might get a windows based player only if i buy xbox 360, so that i can sync easily."

the PSP and Xbox 360 are fully compatible together.

I wonder when you turn it off if it'll say "It's now safe to turn off your WMA Player" ;-)

I should hope not, because if you've already turned it off, it shouldnt be telling you it's safe to turn it off.. ;]

Ipod would totally win in a fight against any other MP3 player. At least with apple you actually own the music you buy and can burn it to a CD. Plus they even give you 5 PC licenses for the DRM file. Why pay for something if it's not really yours like most of the other music services. IPOD + ITUNES = GANGSTAH

Lol are you trying to be sarcastic, is this a joke?
The best reason why ipods would win against any mp3 player is that you can buy music from Apple?
I'm going to have a brain failure.

I've had an iPod for about 6 months and I can honestly say that I won't be without another one. I'm not opposed to switching players or anything (if I find something better), but it's by far the best one that I have used. I do have my complaints (like why is it scratched so easily?), but the 'click-wheel' is freakin' awesome!! It is so fast and easy to navigate. They did such a good job with the interface for the iPod that it makes me want to check out Apple computers, however I won't because I feel that they are more controlling than Microsoft (and more expensive).

True mostly

I personally wouldn't buy a Microsoft media [music] player. Simply because I don't want no wma anything closer than a mile of wild jungle, and that also goes for microsoft's windows media drm solutions. I'd take an ipod any day over anything coming from microsoft.

Oh so you'd prefer apples AAC...pick your own poison I guess.

Lamer post. It's not a "Microsoft Media Player" you'd be buying - it's be a OEM manufacturer like Rio or Creative or iRiver or Sony that happens to support the WindowMedia codec... along with MP3... OGG... AAC.

Then tack on FM radio support, a MP3 microrecorder, a IR splasher, device-to-device support, a color display, all for the same price as an iPod... you'd have to be an friggin' iTARD to buy into Apple's land locking tactics.

At least Microsoft isn't your only choice on PlaysForSure devices.

They keep saying that. But the only player I see that makes me pause is Archos 700AV. And at $500 to $800, that just ain't gonna happen.

iPod is really not anything special, why the heck can't anyone do this.
Do you want the secret, MS? I can help you crack this nut!

If we take a look at what's coming down the pipe in the next few months, I'll be willing to wait a bit. The Archos 700AV is very sweet indeed and the new Creative Zen Vision http://www.creative.com/products/pmp/ is about to make its introduction.

Ultimately its hard to find the perfect Personal Media Player with all the features your personal choice would want to have.

Of course Microsoft could. All they have to do is offer a player at a decent price and hey presto! Not to mention that their reputation with cross compatibility is mostly bias to whoever has Windows installed. Not that it's iPod for Apples and Microsoft's for Microsoft's Windows.

It would be a challenge to overthrow the iPod since it's become widely popular. Even though usage in Australia is mostly illegal except for those who actually buy music online.

I just can't get over how people overprice such devices because "they're portable". The value in having it 'portable' is lost when the hardware is cheap. Slap on a label and ZOMG!!BBQ $400 each is teh coolness. *sarcasm*

I might pay $20 for a 20GB HDD but considering 250GB HDD is only 70 cents a GB....

Forget the ipod. What Microsoft should worry about is a x86 apple pc which is coming. It will not take much to push it into the mainstream and convince all those who had no choice but to go windows to go for the Apple.

This would be true if OS X were not tied specifically to Apple hardware. However, Apple's push towards X86 may create momentum for Linux or other *nix operating systems on x86, which would present a threat to Microsoft.

no choice in operating system Vs no choice in hardware.. HMMMM. I wonder which one is more important. oh yeah, linux can run the hardware that windows can too! even apple hardware!.

And what makes you think that component manufacturers and hobbyists won't make drivers for a lot of hardware under OSX. You underestimate the marketplace.

hm...where are all those components? OSX didn't come out yesterday you know...

why the all the envie ? why come up with something alike ? why not come up with something refreshingly new and of corresponding quality ?maybe thats where the problem sits...too little own creativity ? by the way...whats this about "letting them get away with it"? is it forbidden to have succes bigger than ms can ? or is it because they've been put to shame by a good concept and a good product instead of mere promises ? what a poor mentality....

"why not come up with something refreshingly new and of corresponding quality ?"

From microsoft ? :D Anyway, if apple were the company with gazillions in cash to spend, we'd live in world with such design what you only can see in psychedelic sci-fi movies :D I'd like that :D

robertguda says: "is it forbidden to have succes bigger than ms can ? or is it because they've been put to shame by a good concept and a good product instead of mere promises ? what a poor mentality...."

I totally agree. I think many of the anti-iPod comments are put out there by MS itself. Who in their right mind wants to see MS create yet another monopoly?

""I totally agree. I think many of the anti-iPod comments are put out there by MS itself. Who in their right mind wants to see MS create yet another monopoly?""

Yea, which is the reson why i never will buy an X-box other than the fact that the x-box is a waste of money to begin with :)

Mhh.. I'd like to see a music/video player from Micro$oft... They never did good software, but they do quality hardware.
The only thing that make me think that iTunes don't suck that much is when (by mistake) I open the pathetic windoze media player. Oh,THAT'S crap!! Piece of bloaty slow Spy...
Competition is good, it make the prices going down and give choices. By now, I'm a happy iPod power user.

Microsoft does good hardware?

Might be because they don't make hardware at all... they hire someone else to make it for them. If they did that with software...

And M$ also do that with software... A lot of Micro$oft programing is done in india, am I wrong? :D

And M$ designs hardware and other companies produces quantities. Apple do the same for hardware, but just with hardware...

You've never used the Microsoft Intellimouse? One of the best mouses ever, I have had mine for 3+ years now and it hasn't let me down.

Funny, microspud said the same thing last X-mas

Funny, it's always about someone trying to dethrone by of copying Apple... MS has always been and will always be a cheap imitation.

Bah, who wants an iPod, or Microsoft's naff device. Get a PSP, plays music, games, videos, browses the web, checks email.. £170...

That things is nice but to big and to over priced here you can get it for $400+ that is like buying a crappy iPod. Nice screen though. It does not even play WMAs or WMVs.

Slight problem with size. Well it's not slight at all, that IS the problem. Can't imagine that fitting neatly under a bike jacket. :P

It's good, but the PSP's down-fall is its "Universal" Media Disks. It would be the best mobile device ever if it wasn't for that bs proprietary technology.

"It does not even play WMAs or WMVs"

People use those?

Convert them to real formats then.

The real format sucks just like there player. Avi is fine, but WMA and WMV formats are used with DRM and may not be able to be converted.

I didn't say convert to REAL as in realplayer, I meant real as in avi and mp3 or mpeg and ogg.

Anything that can be played can be converted.

Ok, sorry that is a good idea if it can be converted. But since the PSP plays apples DRM files then it should also give the ability to play MSFT DRM files

"They are just not going to let them get away with it."

yes... how dare they put out a quality product that makes us look like bumbling idiots year after year. how dare they!

There is one simple word for why iPod is the number one digital music player: marketing. That's it. It's that simple. It's not because it's better; there are much better players on the market, including the new Sony, the Zen/Zen Micro, iRiver, etc. There are arguably better looking players out there. There are inarguably cheaper players out there.

But Apple has marketed iPod probably more than every other player put together has been marketed. And once Apple grabbed a large market share and became a "thing to have", everyone and their dead grandmother started buying them without even thinking about getting something else. Most people probably think iPod is the only one player out there. I was exstatic to find that one of my friends bought a DJ20 instead of an iPod.

Hopefully companies will start advertising their products even half as much as Apple does and iPods market share will begin to come down. I cannot WAIT until having an iPod is no longer a cool thing.

I don't know why so many people here think iPod is popular due to marketing only. I'll agree partially with that. Majority of iPod users have it because it's an iPod. However, there is more to it that that.

iPod originally became popular because of what it offered. It was the portable music player with by far the most storage. It took over a year for anyone to match iPod's capacity within a unit of similar size. Right now, iPod (especially iPod mini) is still the slimmest player with over 5 GB of storage. Plus, it is the only player with volume leveling. I know most people don't care about this, but that is the only feature I really care about. I would gladly buy any non-Apple non-iTunes player, but I can't. These "much better players" are worthless to me.

Did you say "volume leveling?" Or did you really mean to say dynamic range squasher?

heat_fan1 says: "There is one simple word for why iPod is the number one digital music player: marketing. That's it. It's that simple. It's not because it's better; there are much better players on the market, including the new Sony, the Zen/Zen Micro, iRiver, etc. There are arguably better looking players out there. There are inarguably cheaper players out there"

It's not that simple. Another important fact is that the MP3 market is too diverse. People want simplicity. Music is highly social and highly non-technical. Nobody wants to talk about MP3 player features the way geeks talk about computers. The music market is too diverse to be dominated by an elite technically savvy minority. Instead most people want to enjoy their music, share it and maybe look cool while they're at it too. And they want to do all of this without technical complications. That's what iPod/iTunes gives us.

It may not work all that well, but at least I don't have to worry about adjusting volume after every song. As far as I am concerned, I can't hear the difference on the little iPod earbuds. Regardless of how good it is, iPod is still the only one to offer this.

Sounds like more spew from a airhead Microsoft exec. Promise the world.... deliver a pebble. Tis the Microsoft way.

ugh.
the only reason ipod stays on top is because people are sheep :/ i'd personally go with an iRiver, way better quality.

in your dreams... iRiver is juat OK...

there is no way you can even say a iRiver is just OK compared to an iPod. there is absolutley NO WAY that is possible

justinb says: "there is no way you can even say a iRiver is just OK compared to an iPod. there is absolutley NO WAY that is possible"

The point again is simplicity. I just took a look at iRiver's web site. Let's see, they have seven different form factors. I think that's too confusing for the average person.

It's cluelessness and indecisiveness by the MS cartel. They think if they cover all the bases they can't stand to loose. Apple didn't have to come up with seven form factors to see which one worked. They studied design principles and understood what consumers wanted better than anyone else and ergo they have a hit. The MS cartel are a bunch of losers. Foremost for drinking the crap MS gives them and not thinking for themselves.

"the only reason ipod stays on top is because people are sheep"

Isn't this just Apple taking a page out of the M$ playbook? How many millions of the same sheeple have bought Windoze so they could remain part of the herd even though better products exist? Oh, yeah, I forgot, its about CHOICE, riiiggghhhtttt. I CHOOSE to be part of the M$ gang bang because that's what all my friends do!

...

what the hell are you using M$ for? it doesn't seem that your S key is broken. I have no problem with Windows, i have no problem with Macs, i have no problem with Linux. personally, i bought windows just because the applications that i NEED to use are only available on this operating system, not because i was following everyone else. but in this case, people saw other people with ipods and decided to follow, ipods are crap. they are ok for the average dummy, but irivers have greater quality, excellent battery life, and EXCELLENT customer service. at least of what i have experienced

Gah...I really doubt any Windows/PlayForSure device is going to be able to go toe-to-toe against the iPod... It's like Xerox anymore... You can't technically Xerox a document on anything other than a Xerox-branded machine, but you still call it Xerox'ing. It will be the same way with iPods (or may already be). Quite frankly, every Windows-based MP3 player has just been too klunky to compete with the iPod. I bought an iPod not because I wanted to be cliche or that I'm against Microsoft (I'm a MS Developer, just an FYI). I bought an iPod because it is (IMHO) the best MP3 player. I had an iRiver HP-320 and it was nice, but just was missing something...and wasn't as quick or long-lasting as the iPod. I hated (and still do) iTunes, so instead I use Ephpod. It's a terrific app that allows you complete freedom with your music. The only thing proprietary about an iPod is iTunes...

Personally I can't stand the iPOD. You can't replace the dam battery. You go to the apple store and they say wait 2 hours. You look around the mall wor 1 1/2 hours and then you return the a sales person that says sorry we had some free time and you were not here come back some other time. WHAT A WAY TO RUN A BUSINESS!!! And this is not just me about 6 or 7 of my friends have had the same problem. APPLE YOU SUCK. I went out and bought a Creative, some of my friends bout a dell. At least when I DON"T choose Apple I DON"T get locked into a MONEY HUNGRY (dictatorship/monopoly). Thankyou very much.

middle school let out early?

No I am out of college but you response was childish

"I went out and bought a Creative"

good job ++

heh

school1012 says: "Apple I DON"T get locked into a MONEY HUNGRY (dictatorship/monopoly)"

Are you sure you're not meaning M$. You're just under the dream that you have a choice when in actuality all your choices are made by M$. You will PayForSure Bill's stock options.

You have to be kiddy. Lets see when I want to buy a video card on a Apple I have to goto apple or the apple store. But if I run windwos I can go to Bestbuy, compusa, staples, and I can buy an ATI, Niv. Etc. That soulds like choice to me. When I buy a computer I can goto staples, bestbuy, compusa, Dell, HP, Gateway. and I can get cheaper prices depending whom I go to. If I goto the Apple store it is the same price no matter what. At the apple store they say "You don't like it to bad."

school1012 says: "I have to goto apple or the apple store."

You're misinformed (but Apple's past marketing hasn't help either). If you open a Mac you'll see in it the same parts (except the motherboard) that you would find in a PC. Apple users know this and don't shop exclusively with Apple for their parts. I've updated CPUs, graphics cards, hard drives, and memory from parts purchased by third party vendors. You can do a Google search on 'mac os x compatible graphics cards' (or any other hardware keyword you like) and you'll find many vendors to buy these parts from.

Where you have a point is that these stores you mention (Bestbuy, CompUSA, etc.) in the past have cared little about Macs so you couldn't trust them to give you good advice regarding Apple products. I think this ignorance is being addressed now that Apple is partnering with some of these stores. Still, it is nothing that can't be overcome with consumer knowledge (which can easily be obtained from the internet today).

well you go ahead and do your google search to find a compatible product...I don't need to do that, I know just about anything I buy will work with my PC. So while you're searching on google for compatible hardware, and then searching for some software that'll actually work...I'll go to any store and with the confidence that anything I buy will work on my PC. Thanks for the assurance that "OSX compatible things do exist out there somewhere" tho'. :)

I LOVE this quote:

"well you go ahead and do your google search to find a compatible product...I don't need to do that, I know just about anything I buy will work with my PC"

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA

Getting myself a Creative Zen this Christmas anyway so I can tell all my friends to get one. I'd get an iPod if, ya know, it wasn't an Apple product =p.

mehvii says: "Getting myself a Creative Zen this Christmas anyway so I can tell all my friends to get one. I'd get an iPod if, ya know, it wasn't an Apple product =p."

Spoken like someone without any experience. Have you tried anything Apple to be able to say why you don't use it?

Kids, all you need is a snappy brand name and a good ad campaign. If we start seeing an avalanche of commercials it will happen. Be careful though, it could turn into toxic commercial sludge like Gieco has.

75 to 80% MP3 player market share?? Why isn't anybody screaming "monopoly!!!"? Isn't that what everybody did to MS when they got such a large share with windows? It's not like there's no choice...

That is such a rediculous comment, ipod is on top because it is a fine piece of hardware, there is barely anything to complain about, the competition on the other hand, there is a list of complaints. Windows, if you made over a billion dollars om profit a month, don't you think you should have the absolute best operating system on the planet, feature rich, best security, state of the art in everyway and updated every 6 months for free with a valid license? I am not talking about security fixes im talking new features, updated ie, new technology enhancements. Microsoft has no competition except linux, which as great as it is, can't make a dent compared to a multibillion dollar giant. IPod and competition, oh yeah its there and they stay on top because they really are the best thing on the market.

IIRC, there is nothing illegal about simply having a monopoly. I think the problem with Microsoft was that they *leveraged* their monopoly in OS-share to create a monopoly in browser-share.

Apple's iPod is ahead because people like it and it's a good product. Simple as that.

[EDIT: Fixed typo in last paragraph.]

*cough* os x *cough*

Get over the Ipood (sorry ipod) its more crap from apple (fyi im useing an apple right now ;). Sure the ipod was great when it came out (what 5 years ago) and they have not been any real changes sence then what about new codec support like ogg or about video??? apple had a good thing 5 years ago but now they are just crap (iriver h320 is a 10X better player Video,ogg,wma(meh),mp3,asf,radio,16hour of play time. cant get much better!

It's not any one thing - it's many things that put Apple on top. Apple pioneered a reasonable DRM when microsoft and record company exacs had their collective heads up their a**es. Other companies that had decent players didn't have decent PC-Side software; Apple did. Not to mention the most beautiful products. Now they have the highest market share. Oh boo hoo. They earned it. If it wasn't for Jobs forcing the issue the market wouldn't be worth a second look even today, and songs would cost $3 each. He's been a friend to the legal downloader, undeniably.

And all these articles and the inevatible viral marketers posting after each article (I recognise the style of one of the posters above, even) it's all because everyone else is desperate to crack the market apple basically /created/.

Having said that, if you rip your own MP3 collection, there are several good players out there. You could get an FM radio and a voice recorder if such things matter to you.. (Personally I'd like a good *AM* radio in an mp3 player... call me wierd)

Disclaimer - I own an 2nd Gen iPod an MP3 CD player and a Rio 500. And I am a reasonably satisfied user.

Niro says: "75 to 80% MP3 player market share?? Why isn't anybody screaming "monopoly!!!"? Isn't that what everybody did to MS when they got such a large share with windows? It's not like there's no choice..."

M$ is still a monopoly. And they now want to monopolize the MP3 player market. Where are the Linux anti-monopolists in this discussion?

Hm....apple doesn't give me free upgrades on my ipod...

No competition for windows? Maybe that statement would actually be true, if you discounted the many flavors of linux, unix, OSX, Lindows (is that still around even?)....there are many others too. So yea, I can see where your argument is completely blind.

Matter of fact, I don't know ANY company that gives me a free update every 6 months. Patches and fixes, yea...free upgrades? Nope.

Actually, apple should give me a new battery, because this battery, which is supposed to last 8 hours...barely lasts 4. And I've had it replaced 3 times under warranty already....and I had to pay for that warranty...ah, not so much different then MS after all huh? My windows patches are free...

I don't get your point. I'm saying, how is apples ipod different from windows and why aren't people crying "monopoly!" like they're doing with MS cuz of windows?

And your response is MS is still a monopoly...

lol that's like saying "toyota has a large suv market share and honda has a large sedan share" and getting a response of "well toyota still has a large suv market share".

Niro says: "I don't get your point. "

My point is that the 'monopoly' argument doesn't mean anything. Everything is overwhelmingly controlled and manipulated by Microsoft. PayForSure is the only alternative to the iPod. So to dismiss the iPod because it's a monopoly only stengthens Microsoft. I don't think Apple should conceed anything to Microsoft. Microsoft is applying alot of pressure to bring down the iPod. In such an environment Apple can't be weak. So Apple must appear to be a monopoly. Look what happened to Netscape: 90% browser market share; today 0% thanks to IE. I don't want to see that happen to the iPod.

I just hope if there is any justice in the world that Apple continue kicking Microsoft's *ss all the way to the moon and back for the next hundred years.

Niro says: "Hm....apple doesn't give me free upgrades on my ipod..."

Spoken like one who was bred on the Microsoft kool-aid. Nothing is 'free'. You bilk someone in order to give the illusion of free to another. Free is what the unwanted Windows licensing fees get you.

Funny...I was just responding to Cranbers...

Cranbers QUOTE:
"Windows, if you made over a billion dollars om profit a month, don't you think you should have the absolute best operating system on the planet, feature rich, best security, state of the art in everyway and updated every 6 months for FREE with a valid license?"

"free is what the unwanted windows licensing fees get you". hm...I guess you want them to give away windows for free then. I don't know about you, but I only pay one time for my windows "license"...same goes for vlk's, but I guess it doesn't matter to you...you don't "want" to pay for a license anyway.

Hey I don't mind seeing the ipod die if something better comes along...there's plenty of alternatives to apples ipod actually. If MS's mp3 player is better then the ipod, screw the ipod, let apple come out with something better....if anybody makes a better player then apple then I'll buy it over the ipod.

Just FYI...I do have a G3 ipod...so I'm not an apple hater or anything...I say this since the typical response from most people would be "your an apple hater..". :)

Niro says: "Hey I don't mind seeing the ipod die if something better comes along...there's plenty of alternatives to apples ipod actually."

There is always someone to knock off the hill. You may have an iPod but you don't give the impression that you know much about Apple products. Too bad. It would be nice to talk about things we have in common.

Uhm...LOL...so??? I really really wish we cold talk about apple products...really I do..

I don't get the impression you know much about networking...that's too bad, would be nice to talk about things we have in common.

I just bought a Toshiba gigabeat F60 60 gb mp3 player. It is awesome but the software really sucks. Media player sucks so bad for transfering. I am going to sell my toshiba on ebay and buy an ipod photo. Itunes is so much better. It's all about useability.

You haven't gotten the ipod updater, with bug fixes for free? I certainly did, ipod mini version 1.3 to 1.4 Hardware updates for free, yeah your right. Yes they fouled up on the battery but I have a feeling that was more the battery suppliers fault. If not then that is exactly why they are issuing out rebates. Has microsoft done anything like that? Yes I agree as in my previous statement their is competition, but how do you compete against something that has the industry locked down and has a fraction of the money microsoft has being put into linux. Mozilla firefox is updated every few months isnt it? and its totally free. Tell me, how does a company that is not for profit, kick microsoft's face in an industry they are supposively a master in. If mozilla was for profit, I can bet you microsoft would of disposed of them when their software was in beta. But just like googe is becoming sucessful on their ground, for making their software free. That is about all you can do.

Thank you I agree 100 percent

Rebates? You do realize that there's a class action lawsuit against apple right? I got a rebate from apple because of that lawsuit...not because they wanted to be nice. Until that lawsuit...you know how apple said "ok we messed up with the battery"? They charged you $50 for a battery warranty....imagine you bought a 2003 corolla, and later you find out that the 2003 model engines all die after 20k miles...and then toyota says if you want it replaced they'll do it but only if you buy an extra $1k warranty that's good for 2 years.

Yea, thanks apple, make me pay $50 for your mistake. That's a good company right there...

And you're talking about patches, you can't tell me MS doesn't provide those. Before you were talking about free UPGRDADES...those you don't get free from any company (FREE products excluded ofcourse, I don't even know why you're bringing a free product into this argument). Apple doesn't give me a free IPOD upgrade...they don't even give me a discount on a 4G ipod if I have a 3G, MS gives me an upgrade discount...

A point is being missed here. Apple is the only company that manufactures computers for the domestic market. Everyone else buys stock components and puts them in plastic boxes, then loads Windows onto it. That is not manufacturing. It is assembly. It is Apple's marriage of hardware and software that makes it so good. Windows has to work with a thousand different components from a thousand different manufacturers. That is why Windows is such a dog's breakfast of an operating system. Buy a Powerbook and an iPod and they sing sweetly together. Windows sucks ( not being from the U.S I don't know what "sucks" means in that context, but it sounds good