of course there are bugs in Mozilla, they have only had 3 builds they have called "stable." Since all builds are available to the public, that means that many people will be using very buggy builds. If IE left their alpha and beta builds open to the public, I'd like to see what people's reactions would be. Phoenix is still in VERY early stages so you can't say "never use this crap" like some people have. It will open as fast as a text editor it seems, and so far the page parsing is very fast.

And come on, saying "IE doesn't crash on my computer, so you're all liars for saying that it crashes" is just ridiculous... just because your experience is good on your exact configuration doesn't mean everyone's will be the same, and it DOESN'T mean that they are using a crap OS, it DOESN'T mean that they are novice users... different software configs with different OS's on different hardware reacts differently, ok? Just chill out and stop getting so angry... its good software, and its in development, you have to realize that as well.

I like Opera the best. 7.10 beta 3 is out now and is the fastest browser and works with way more IE specific sites.

In human beings, might makes right. IE is king. It won. Same in Football, the one that the Soup Bowl is king. Same in baseball, the one that won the World Serious is king. IE won the browser wars. It is king. Argue all you want, it don't change a damn thing.

IE is king? This from someone who talks about the Soup Bowl and the World Serious?

safari even though its in beta and I've read somewheres that its going to be stopped. I've never seen pages render so nicely on a mac w/ safari anywhere else.

I haven't heard anything about ending Safari; perhaps you're thinking of what they *did* end (due to copies being spread over the Internet), the Safari "seed" program that allowed some people to get copies of non-public betas--there was an article here on that not too long ago, I think.

hmm, I'll have to read up on it.
I like the browser alot.

Ok... I think we should all be honest here... IE does crash often, however, I don't think its due to bad code on the MS part, but in fact the load of crud that programmers try to build. MS does make some of the biggest security holes out there, but the fact that more people still use it speaks for itself. No one needs to give me the load on how MS is a big monopoly, because AOL can change the atmosphere just as quickly... if tommorrow AOL decides that IE is totally out, and they'll be 100% incompatible, the market will change.

Ad-Ware plagues us all, and until we start spamming the spammers and hacking apart these ad-networks to teach these companies a lesson, they'll just keep on comming out with new techniques on how to dupe novice users into installing their crap.

One must realize that to be using Windows is equal to using a glass door with no lock (ie. no security). Given that many of us either depend our livelyhood on novice users (who don't want complicated alpha/beta products and don't have the knowledge to get on with the updates) to buy our software, we should be fair to MS and IE for at least giving us their standards. Hey, I'd rather program to IE then to IE, Mozilla, and Opera (and by the looks of how Mozilla is changing their own standards, multiple versions of their browsers).

Either some group sits down and truly decides the standards and gets everyone to comply, we're just going to be looking at writting 5 different scripts for 1 customer.

Good luck to Mozilla, but from the looks of NS6 and NS7, theres not much that I can say that I look forward to from them. I keep both IE and Mozilla on my PC, and I have been hit with Ad-ware that Lavasoft did not get to yet... but is that IE's fault or some a$$hole making lots of cash from novice users?

"they'll just keep on comming out with new techniques on how to dupe novice users into installing their crap."

I think they target the newbies. Novice users are smarter...i hope

The W3C *does* decide the standards, and it's up to the browser makers and page designers to comply; nobody can force them. Mozilla suports (all of?) HTML 4, all of CSS 1, and most of CSS 2. I'm not quite sure where IE stacks up, but I'm sure it's around the same. But basically, there are standards defined, and it's up to the browser makers and page designers to use them. And hopefully the days of NS 4 tags will soon be over... :) It's unfortunate that to compete in the browser wars, they each added many of their own markup tags...

"I still love IE... even though it crashes"

I'd like to say THANK YOU to you because its people like you that make Microsoft churn out bad products because they know people like you will use it.

I guess my HTML "tags" were cut out above--I meant to say that the days of NS 4 <LAYER> tags would hopefully be over soon. (I'm assuming that this time it will dispay correctly...if not, I want LAYER surrounded by greater than and less than signs in between NS 4 and tags....) :-)

Phoenix is a LOT smaller than Mozilla, and on the Phoenix project page, it says they are still working on removing the unneeded Mozilla jun-- err.... code

I've been full supporter of Internet Explorer since it's release as v4.0 (well, maybe not a supporter of all that push technology hoopla that came along with its release.) But as with any project IE has had it's ups and downs, and although I can only say it's never crashed once on THIS install of Windows 2000. I do firmly believe that this is one of the finest products Microsoft has released (forgetting the security holes). So if your experiance is anything like another poster, crash an hour. Maybe you need to get rid of Windows ME or whatever your running. Or better yet take the steps to educate yourself and fully customize your operating system so that it can run at it's peak potential and stability on your current hardware setup. Oh and seriously, I'm hoping this new incarnation of Netscape really is something revolutionary. Cuz I don't know who anyone was kidding Mozilla was just another netscape, still just as slow to load, still the same clunky interface... yadda yadda yadda... Flame away, but Windows 2000 w/ IE is the only way I roll. Forways into dualbooting aside.

http://forever-hacking.net/compare.html

bull crap. you mean never as in not even once, ever?

laf... you put the lame back in flamer. IE6 is about the buggiest thing I've run across in Microsoft short of Windows ME. Pheonix is good... let's see where they take it to make it the best.

I use both IE6 and Mozilla. Neither of them has crashed for me. Honestly if you are experiencing that many problems I suggest you keep the spyware off your system and install the critical updates as they come out. I don't understand this nonsense about bugs either. I have windows notify me automatically when updates come out and I install them. If you keep your system maintained properly and use good judgement about what pages you browse and what you download then you will rarely have problems. Its like a car, how long do you think it will run without changing the fluids, air, and tires? It will eventually stop working correctly just like your computer.

ie 6 doent crash...please be serious...all browsers crash...all have bad software....plus equally bad designed sites...

sorry but ie has NEVER crashed on my machine
cant tell same with mozilla/phoenix

they are still some good peice of software but cannot beat ie 6.0 for sure. and now that i have founf Myie2.0, mozilla been deleted from my harddrive for ever...

they should replace mozilla by IE one and for all times, and then everyone would be happy

"and then everyone would be happy"
If by everyone you mean you, and by happy you mean ignorant then yes, everyone would be happy

so you mean phoenix and the lizards are better ha?
-->My practical experience with phoenix says never use it !!
Reasons I hate Phoenix:
1 Not as smooth on startup like IE,
2 many many bugs eg: extensions huh!!
3 Not supporting many pages that IE does so I have to go back to ie and load that page in it to view it!! huh!!! eg: www.gulfnews.com
4 Sucks with preferance in the menu cant find many stuffs!!
Reasons I hate Mozilla:
1 huh!! take an 15seconds(less or even more) just to load up.. Quick launch!! heh eat my memory
2 crashes more than ie!! I swear!!
3 change the meaning of reload.. CTRL+s***+R? HUH!!
4 font support huh!!
--------------------------
Never try mozilla or phoenix I wasted a week experimenting it .. bt really disappointing !!
What we need???
Faster load up
Faster Back like the Opera
we need some keyboard shortcuts like "g" in opera to just disable the loading of pictures so that the page load really fast
A better searchbar!! not the googlebar extension it sucks!
a clean look.
load all pages!!
make something to load java faster huh! java pages really makes it slow..
Consider my opinion in a positive and creative way and make it a better one..
I like opera its worth a try

by everybody I mean "every single normal human being out there except for a couple of masochistic people, who just love to torture themselves by browsers that are slow, display pages incorrectly and eat the entire memory and cpu power". by "happy" I mean the exaltation one experiences surfing the net using the wonderful Internet explorer which a) is fast on start b) fast on loading pages c) doesn't eat memory or cpu power, because it's not a programme, but a windows system component, which is loaded anyway on start when you load windows explorer and d) displays pages correctly.

"browsers that are slow"
You are quite right in saying that Mozilla is slower than IE, and we are comparing speeds with Mozilla's quick launch feature as otherwise it's not really a fair comparison given that IE's whole html rendering engine and fairly much every other component is loaded during start up. But on the same hand I think you'll find that speed wise, Opera is still king.

"display pages incorrectly"
You'll have to expand this point a bit more. Display correctly written (i.e. to the standards) pages incorrectly? or display incorrectly written pages incorrectly? I think you'll find that Mozilla displays correctly written pages far better than IE! But yes, IE does handle incorrectly written pages better, there's no denying it. But this is a bit of a rough point to make because why should a non-IE browser have to try and support all those weird and wonderful 'features' IE has in it that developers have used rather than sticking to the standards. You're basically complaining about Mozilla not handling invalid pages and non-standard tags!

"eat the entire memory and cpu power"
Little bit of an exaggeration? I've been running IE and Mozilla on this computer since last night (I don't bother closing them at times) - IE is currently using 27Meg and Mozilla is using 22Meg - but those figures fluctuate all the time, overall I'd say they were fairly even.

"doesn't eat memory or cpu power, because it's not a programme, but a windows system component"
You do realise that if a component is automatically loaded when Windows loads up then it is automatically eating up memory and cpu power? (No so much cpu power as it only requires that when it's being invoked). So when I load up Windows, whether or not I like it or want it, there is ALWAYS a chunk of memory being taken up by IE. Why does IE the "application" start up so quickly? Because it's just a new window on a new thread. The rest of the points have been covered above.

Concerning the mail module: I've 'tested' The Bat! for more than one year and the same for Mozilla. The Bat! is good yes that is true ... but for me Mozilla is much better. I will take only one example => the SPAM/junk mail control which is very very effective

I'll be sad to see Mozilla go, as a developer I love it, it has lots of tools I love, I love the popup ad blocker, the JavaScript Debugger & so much more, sure it's bloated, but not as bloated as Netscape 7, or as buggy and predictable as IE, IE Crashes on an hourly basis, is littered with security holes (Note that IE is offically on Version 6.0.1 sp2) yet Can't do anything that Mozilla/Phoenix can do. yes I like Phoenix, Yet I love Mozilla.

I'm keeping 1.4, is that wrong ?

I prefer NS 7 over Mozilla, but I much moreso prefer IE6. NS and IE rarely crash on MY computer, but maybe that's because I don't d*** around with crappy components and software. People who use spyware software (ie. Kazaa) deserve to have a buggy experience.

Francis

Umm... 10mb is not huge, and making it 2mb smaller is not a big difference.... unless you are living in the early 90's.

Pheonix is the s**t !!!

Mozilla is okay, I don't use any of the integration components. Have tried Opera, but hate the idea that they want advertisting in their offer to the public. Advertising crap breeches privacy and takes up space.

Only unpaid versions have ads, although I'm not saying you should go out and buy it, since the other "big two" browsers carry a price tag of you-know-what. :) (Personally, I use it occasionally, but the default UI of 7 either needs some polishing or maybe I'm just not used to it yet.)

Um...except Phoenix is already small. 6.3 MB for the Win32 version, 8.9 for the Linux version.

In all honesty, I never liked Mozilla. I think Opera has more future than Mozilla and Phoenix, but of course, thats just my opinion :) I like something that starts up a lot faster.

A web browser should open as fast as a text editor like notepad. Its not an application you keep open all the time...you close it and reopen it as needed. I'm glad they're finally making things leaner.

I was expecting an office suite along with a movie editing software and integrated photoshop in the next release....

"Its not an application you keep open all the time..."
I do. At home I have my browser kept open the whole time I'm infront of the computer just about and at work I usually have at least 2 separate instances running with several "new windows" in each instance. This is so I can do things in our development environment and keep it completely separate to our test environment. In fact at work I keep the 8 or so applications that I constantly use open all day.

Mozilla is open on my computer all day long, my sister does the same with Netscape. Obviously different people have different needs and habits.

This is one project that just keeps getting better and better. Running 1.4a now, very stable so far, with a much faster launch time than 1.3. I, for one, definately cannot wait to see what happens next :) Although I do love the all-in-one browser/email client.. it looks as though it will still be available in the post 1.5 era, just more customizable.