Both these suckers have the same problem. I have a account with Compuserve's IMAP/SMTP servers for my primary email. I can retrieve mail from both of these clients with no problem. However if I try to send mail all I get from both is: Client authenication required us ESMTP EHLO AND AUTH.

Bugzilla has been informed of this since M15 and claims to have fixed it - they have not.

Sending email works fine under Outlook Express (no password required - configured to be the same as IMAP) and even Netscape 4.7x (yup tried them all) - password required the first time in a session.

Naturally the problem makes both of these useless for me except to see how low a once great product can sink under the weight of AOL.

Marty Felker

I feel sorry for netscape, there owned by aol, they had a huge fight with microsoft and for what nothing microsoft I hope some one there realize's how stupid you we're, all you had to do was to aquire netscape merge the code bases and there you go the ultimate browser with all the top talent in the industery (no offence to the hard workers at opera or any other companys developing browsing technologys) my point is simple I should be internet scape 5.0 right now. frankly I don't like aol I know there tactics there backstabbing there corperate bulls*** they shovel into peoples mouths becuase they have pr power and I'm frankly sad such fine companys as icq, netscape, nullsoft have fallen under there influence (microsoft wtf we're you thinking letting aol snatch up these three prime companys?)

yeah MS, you sure "we're" stupid not to take netscape, rather than beat them fair and square and show the world what crappy software it had become. Who is this guy? and why, if he's calling others stupid, doesn't be learn to spell? It's "acquire," kid.

of you seem to understand the design and purpose of "Pre-Release", it is essentially Beta - which to clarify more means that it WILL be:

Unstable - still contains code that either has not been fully tested or does not work on all platform configurations. Report the errrors you recieve with your hardware and software config and the problem will probably be solved in the RTM version - if reproduced. It could just be a crappy config on the end-users side.

Slow - has embedded "debug" code which 1. adds extra overhead to the program (this means it uses more memory) 2. helps log errors, determine the cause of an error and report errors. BTW, "debug" code is removed from the production version of a program, hence any memory/performance testing you do now is irrelevent and will be much better when the program goes to final release.

Feature UN-rich - this is pretty much proof of concept, you know, does it work and if not why or take it out. Do end users like a function this way and if not how should it be changed or removed.

There is no reason to bash the product if you have no clue. You only make yourself look like an idiot - though you do provide entertainment value for those who do.

Personnally, I have run Mozilla from M13 to M17 and NSPR1 and NSPR2 on several different platforms (hardware and OS) and some have been successful and others not. The entire time though I understood that this was not production software. Some of the issues were the fault of the app and some were the fault of my configuration. Through all of this I have seen Mozilla/Netscape mature and get better with each new milestone.

One other thing to remember is that this produces competition, which will, in the end, give everyone a better browser no matter which one you choose. BTW, you can choose any browser you like.

Lets face it folks. Netscape, a browser that opened the internet to me many years ago, is dead. While everyone has been out being politically correct in the rampage to damn Microsoft, AOL snuck in the back door, bought Netscape, bought ICQ, bought Win-Amp, bought Time-Warner, and others to bring us a vision of what we can expect in the future, an advertisers dream. Today, Netscape is not the Netscape I knew and loved. Today it is a vehicle for AOL. So all the arguments of pro's and con's, Netscape vs IE or any other browser is a waste of time. This is not your fathers Netscape. Let us put it to bed. May it rest in peace.

I downloaded PR2, and within 10 minutes, it crashed twice and failed to properly display anumber of pages that render just fine with Ns4/IE4/5. The browser finally locked up my system! The most important thing they need to do is build a browser that works reliably and properly displays the 1,000,000,000+ pages that exist. People put a lot of work to get pages that work with NS4 and IE4+, and NS should worry more about compatibility and reliabilty and less about skins and a lot of other components.

Long time ago, I remember posted a few negative comments about netscape on betanews (if i'm not mistaken) and everyone start to flame me with arguements saying that netscape is the best browser ever constructed and IE f**k all the way to h**l. Now, on August 12, 2000, I have a different opinion, and i'm not pro-microsoft anymore. Infact I downloaded netscape 6 PR2. It works well for me, but, who wants the AOL-support on their e-mail program? The only down-side to it is that it's aol-poluted and commercialized and i think no one likes that. Talking about personal hate or love, i hate both netscape and IE. why? I hate netscape because i hate AOL. I hate IE because i hate Microsoft (You know... their business tactics states that they need to kill all their competitors's oxygen supply using whatever it takes, even using ANTI-competitive ways) But talking about technology, maybe netscape, which is built from the ground up using XML architecture is little more advanced than IE. Hopefully, in the future, i will never need to create two versions of my web page anymore due to Netscape's support of all the standards. a note to netscape supporter: Wait, let me guess:- you use netscape because your are anti-microsoft. To IE supporter: you use IE because it's more advanced than netscape right? That's a smart move but please, don't ignored netscape too.

Okay lets review your comments here ..

"Infact I downloaded netscape 6 PR2. It works well for me, but, who wants the AOL-support on their e-mail program?"

What makes you think AOL members don't want an alternative to the email program that comes with AOL ??

"The only down-side to it is that it's aol-poluted and commercialized and i think no one likes that."

a: Aside from the AOL email and buddy list support where ELSE does AOL show up in Netcape??

b: well if you don't like " commrecialized " AOL , then get your whiny butt off this add banner filled Internet.

" Talking about personal hate or love, i hate both netscape and IE. why? I hate netscape because i hate AOL. I hate IE because i hate Microsoft (You know... their business tactics states that they need to kill all their competitors's oxygen supply using whatever it takes, even using ANTI-competitive ways) "

at least you are equal opportunity, I'll give you that

"But talking about technology, maybe netscape, which is built from the ground up using XML architecture is little more advanced than IE. Hopefully, in the future, i will never need to create two versions of my web page anymore due to Netscape's support of all the standards. a note to netscape supporter: Wait, let me guess:- you use netscape because your are anti-microsoft. To IE supporter: you use IE because it's more advanced than netscape right? "

Personally ( and I bet I speak for a lot of people ) I don't care about what supports what standards .. I just want a browser that works .. IE and netscape both do the job

P.S I have one page . It works with both browsers . Why ?? because I don't bother with crap .

if you're an aol user: ok, i like AOL. I love AOL. I'm sorry for saying that i hate AOL (cause i didn't even use AOL before!)

infact, i was wrong. I should have said, "I have downloaded Netscape 6 PR2 and it was not that bad though a few crashes are unavoidable since it's not even a beta version yet. But, who wants that AOL-support on the Netscape Mail? Unless you are an AOL user ofcourse." Sorry for that mistake.

It sure as hell renders html better than the first release...My homepage looked like crap under the first release and now all but the java is correct...

http://dcw.govsci.com

look at it with both versions if you have them...

Well, Bites the hell out of my memory, though I really like the GUI.

Have you guys had problem loading pages; such as hotmail.com on netscape? For some reasone it will load a white page, or have you tried logging in to betanews? That doesn't work either, but I guess it's just my PC.

Why are these people even try to compete with IE? Has anyone in the netscape building even realize how ugly this thing is? UGLY DOG!!! And besides that what in the hell is "www.aho.com" when you are trying to go to YAHOO!!!!!

I'm not getting "aho.com" when I surf yahoo.com in netscape, but in your case, I guess it's trying to say " a ho . com" :-)

If the worst thing you have to say about it is that the UI is ugly then I would consider that a major win for netscape. A browser is meant to accomplish something. It is not like art where aesthetics are the main focus. And as we all know the skin can be changed.

umm...I do think its my fault that netscape sucks,I didnt build it...I use internet explorer where i can go anywhere i want without a problem,not AOL/NETSCAPE..what a joke.

wait a second....netscape would need reconstructive surgery to make it look even decent....theres not a skin in the world that could fix it...and whats with the sidebar???I think these people are on drugs...

.......

I think the current skin looks good, and I happen to think it is very inique, and interesting, and I also happen to think that these guys are doing an extremely fine job.

What's makes you think that Netscape is doing a good job...it has taken them how long to come up with a skinable program in comparison to how many years Microsoft has had skinable programs. Don't you realize how slow Netscape has become in production since AOL took over...

...but not something that I'd use. IE5.5 is the way to go.

Yes it has improved dramatically, and I hope the over the next few month, they are going to have an even better preview version out, which hogs less memory, and loads faster (I know to some point that's not possible). :-)

I loved Netscape before it fell to Microsoft. Now Microsoft has the better product hands down. But the question is how will Netscape 6 compare to IE? Well for me it boots slower, but once it is running it is much faster than IE. I does everything that IE can do except be integrated into everything which I could care for less.

The real problem with Netscape is it's total lack of Javascript support, if they fix this then we will have product that kicks ass. Personally I don't care about browser wars anymore, what I care about is standards and that it can produce my webpages in the way that users want to see it without too much html work.

Folks the browser war is over. So it really comes down to what browser do you like and does everything you want. IE, Netscape or Opera. As a programmer of websites, I am only going to program for standards. As for what I am going to use, well that would be ease of use. So until Netscape or Opera or Neoplanet does it better I will most likely end up using IE for now.

It doesnt support javascript? It not only supports javascript but supports the very latest version. Perhaps you meant to say java. But with the plugin from sun it supports that too.

open-minded? you know what... if you're trying to compare two browsers, you're not open-minded, cause an open-minded will just ue which browser that suit he/she taste.

Well, the problem of only supporting standards is that you have to keep supporting NS4 for a long while, since 30+% of browser users are NS 4 users. NS4 barely supports the standards it claims to support. So, if you want any user to get acces to your pages, you can not use all of the cool standards stuff, but must continue to build for NS4

actually, there was an article on betanews a week or so ago revealing that MS now has something like 86% of the browser market

Has anyone been able to get the Aphrodite skins, such as the Sullivan skin to work? I've followed the instructions posted at www.alphanumerica.com, but it doesn't work. It just locks up Netscape! The Sullivan skin looks really slick, much better than the default Classic and Modern themes. I really want to make this work!

Anyone have a fix?

I think it just works with the mozilla m16 milestone.

try x.themes.org or soon www.netscape.com/themes/index.html for other skins

The aphrodite and sullivan skins have yet to be adapted to M17(NS6 PR2)
Before downloading and installing a skin, you should look at the "Known To Work With M1?" section on the descritpion box. Make sure it is compatible with the version you have installed.

The aphrodite and sullivan skins have yet to be adapted to M17(NS6 PR2)
Before downloading and installing a skin, you should look at the "Known To Work With M1?" section on the descritpion box. Make sure it is compatible with the version you have installed.

I was hopeing that this version of Netscape would be faster, more reliable, and I was really looking forward to the option of checking my AOL mail . But, to my grotescness, the stinkin software won't even boot up...POS. I installed it...I tried to run it. I double click on the icon, nothing happens. I wait 5 minutes, then resort to my ctrl-alt-del to see if it actually tried to run. There it was, netscp6 running. Oh well, netscape, you failed this test. Maybe it just don't like running on WindowsMe...who knows.

It's not your platform that is making it suck...it's just netscape.

I think Netscape 6 PR2 is better than ever, it sure is a hell of a lot lighter, it loads in seconds and after changing that straight from hell look to the netscape classic skin, I started to love it. I got a 667 Dell with 128 megs of ram, and so far I think this is the best netscape yet.

good for you and your Dell... I am sure that your Dell is going to fix everyone else's problems that they have with it....what makes you think that we all have money coming out of our ass's like you

Best Netscape ever? Is that really saying a lot?

Personaly, I really loved Netscape 3.04. In fact, at home, I use it to browse a lot of pages because of how stable it is and how easy it is to turn off java/javascript to prevent annoying banners.

And here at work, we're required to use Netscape 4.7 or greater, due to this one insurance company designing their webpage specificly for it(which, BTW, the 6 can't work properly on). The whole reason they picked netscape was that they could easily set the font size to a given(incredibly small) size and then tell people to print out in landscape mode to get their forms to come out page seperated. Its a living nightmare half the time because Netscape 4.73 will mysteriously erase data entry fields(which you have to scroll up and down for them to reappear) and then it will lock up randomly, or will sit there trying to load a page forever no matter how many times you hit the stop button(and without it stopped, you can't print a page, because if you try and print while a page is still loading, it locks up).

Again, I just find it funny that this 6 won't work for their page, I wonder how many times this insurance company has been called by people trying out 6 PR2 and saying they can't get it to work. :) The main problem with it not working is that you can't set the font sizes small enough(which I have noticed is an open project over on mozilla)

If he had money coming out of his ass, like you say he does, he'd have more than just 128MB RAM and maybe a 1GHz CPU.

The M17 build seems to run fine on my K6-2 500 with 128MB RAM on Win98. Of course, there are crashes every once in a while but it is a preview release. There's another preview release to go yet and then it will be a while after that before final is released. I'd bet that they get most of the crashers out and get some good performance improvements in before final.

I certainly understand the "anything but Microsoft" mindset. But I find a bit odd that people are saying things like " I can't wait to get IE5.x, or whatever off my machine" Some Microsoft products (WindowsMedia Player7 comes to mind), you'd swear they were hittin' the crack pipe in Redmond. As for IE, it really has become the standard, if you will. Not because it's the Ultimate, but to date no one has produced anything better. Even Steve Jobs quieted the hisses at the recent Apple confab and proclaimed Internet Explorer first rate. A year or so ago, I downloaded an early beta of "Gecko". I thought that was very cool idea. For whatever reason, AOL/Netscape can't seem to get it together. I'd love to see a truly viable alternative to IE, but for now...it's anything but AOL. Netscape 6.0 seems to be more SOL than AOL!

Well after reading the comment.why bother when 8 out 10 have problems.
So why boter to have another Aol product on the coumputer..anyway i am also uninstaling icq the bloatware..massenger3.0 great.
well i used to love netscape3.0 but now ie5.5 work wonderfully!
SO why force yourself all the headache just ie it all the way!!

Well, in spite of my better judgement, I decided to give this thing (Milestone 17) one last try. I tried it on three of my home systems: P166 MMX (Win98SE), IBM Celery 500 (WinME) and OC'ed dual celly w/W2k (500 Mhz +/- each.) It sucked on all. I had Communicator 4.74 installed on the dualie and tried removing it first. The uninstall routine hung right at the start so I had to manually remove it and clean the registry. I removed all traces of previous installs on all machines before installing. The verdict? Terrible. A total resource hog, both RAM and CPU wise. On my 98 SE and ME systems I use 98 Lite to remove IE and run the W95 Explorer, so I have *no* trace of IE anywhere, I use Opera 3.62 and 4.02. These two browsers cover all the sites I've ever come accross and are much faster than either IE or Communicator/Mozilla. Mozilla cannot hold a candle to the kind of performance I get from Opera, it's just too damn slow (just like it's insane developement cycle.) They could have been a contender but now it looks like they're destined to be lower than Opera on the browser totem......

Btw, fyi, the IBM is a brand new laptop from the fall lineup.

In a word, it SUCKS! Bookmarks are like dinosaurs compared to Favorites and the program takes an eternity to load even on a 1 gig p3 w/ 384mb ram! Keep trying Netscape!!

What's the difference between bookmarks and favorites? I thought they served the exact same purpose.

Favorites can be sync'd for offline viewing, transfered to mobile devices, and customized in various ways. also the menu's prioritize the favorites you use most (your Favorite favorites =)

Actually, a "Favorite favorites" feature slows you down. Your ability to work quickly with an interface depends on everything being in the same place every time. You can easily click on the Stop button because it's always in the same place and you just instinctively move your mouse to that position. But if features move around (as in Office 2000 and Win2K by default), you don't develop this unconscious skill, and your productivity actually drops.

I use IE; but if netscape does get it's act together I will switch over! The new Gecko engine is alot faster; and from preview release 1-2 it has gotten more stable! I have used it the last two days non stop with no lockup on a PIII 600;128MB ram! It doesn't seem to be much of a resource hog on this machine. :) Although; I like the Mozilla Nightly M17-18 downloads much better! But I am glad to see Netscape finally got it's tables coded correctly! I think though by the time they get this out for the final version IE will be on 7.0

After getting Netscape6p2 running (which took 3 install attempts) it crashed within 5 mins! So I made a little screen shot yesterday and posted it on maximumbsd.

http://www.maximumbsd.com/netscape6p2.gif

I am sick and tired of this crap.
Netscape & IE still display tables differently at times.
As a multimedia developer, nothing pisses me off more than this.
Pick a damned standard and quit being children.
I hate having to write extra code because 2 companies are acting like children. IE is so much easier to develope for, regardless of what people think of M$, the net would be a much better place if there wasnt such a divide. Netscape was first, but offered no innovation after a while, while M$'s IE steals innovation, it works at least. It crashes, but so does Netscape. Everything crashes. Sloppy coding and too much hardware. God I miss DOS. .

My review of Netscape 6? F Netscape.

I'm also a webproducer and I think NS6 is more easy to develop for than IE because it follows W3C:s standards..

by the way.. this release is very stable on my machine and the latest M18 is even more stable.

so far so good for me with m17. though i couldn't access hotmail or https based sites. no crash and faster than my other 2 (IE+NS)

the reason you cant access https sites or hotmail is cause you dont have PSM installed... search for PSM on the mozilla homepage and then install it, and you can visit secure sites.

I can't remenber seeing buggier software in a public beta release. The programs simply blow out on Win2K. And they b**** about MS beta testing on us??? Give me a break. If you really want to break with MS go to Opera at least the Browser works, even in beta.

PR2 isn't a Beta; it's a Preview Release. It comes earlier than Beta, which is why you may find it a bit unstable...

It actually works perfectly on my Win2K system - methinks it doesn't like something on your machine at the moment.

Actually, in all my experiences as a beta tester, Preview releases have come out after the betas, ususally, at least with MS, when it is in Release Candidate stage. I know this was the case with IE4 and 5.5 and the CPP of Win2k could be looked at as a Preview Release.

No, I believe this is a beta. You might call it beta 1 since the folks at Mozilla.org didn't want to release PR1 as early as Netscape did. In fact, this PR2 release kind of pissed off the folks at Mozilla.org because they said it didn't do Mozilla justice.

It works really good on my win2k machine.

I like it a lot..

If anyone is going to spout off about the beta vs PR issue they should take the time to read the mozilla hompage (http://www.mozilla.org). There you will find the explanation of why these releases are not considered beta. Then perhaps you will not waste our time with such useless complaints. I don't recall anyone from netscape nor Mozilla ever saying that this was beta software.

I have been trying out the Mozilla Milestones for a year now, and now tried the Netscape 6 Bata 2 and the Mozilla Milestone 17, which are based on the same engine, so understanably are not dissimilar! (the installation is different, and the 6 version offers a Sun Java engine install - a good idea, but one can get that from Sun direct).
Maybe no crashes, but performance is way under IE5 and Netscape 4.74.
It is very very slow to load, eats ram like cake, and for most users is not in the same ball park as the standard browsers around now.
But as Mozilla explain in their blurb about the 17 version, this is the end of the line for features, now they are working just on performance - and that is just on the mark - if they succeed over the next few months to make an elephant into a lion then it will be OK. It's nice to have a browser than doesn't mess around ith the OS. But in its present form it is really bloated...not the zappy little browser we were promised and hoped for. Version 18 will be very interesting. Then we will see if the wait has been worthwhile, and we'll see if they have been wasting their (and our) time or not. I hope they succeed.

It's obvious that Netscape has it problems. They are meant to be challenging the big IE but what makes them think the average user would stick around with a browser like Netscape that eats your RAM as if it owned it!

no average user is gonna know what ram _IS_ :D

Well, it's snappy.. but small..

Loaded at 22Mb in RAM, going up to 45Mb before I noticed it.. Never have I seen an application use this amount of RAM ( I don't edit any LARGE files).. but this is incredible.. I hope they scale this down by the time it's final.

Am I alone in this, or does it hog RAM for everyone?

no it hogs lots of RAM

I've been waiting for this release for ages...
I can't wait to dump IE again.

My only concern was that it does NOT work.
I've ran the installation 3 times... I got to download the files 3 times and it successfully finished (so it seems).
But starting the "Netscape 6" or :"profile manager" gave the great
effect of the Logo showing then closing and... NOTHING !!

The process of netscape6 seems to fail to start on Windows2000 Server.

My only hope it will be better than this... soon.

They disappointed me, and I am a netscape fan.

Have you installed Pr1 or any Mozilla Build? Delete PR1/Mozilla installation folder + Users Folder + Mozregistry.dat in the windows folder. Should work after that....

Had PR1 before, but since then the computer was formatted so it's for sure not the case.

Maybe. It sure didn't work for me.

1) got somethings upgraded inside? nice, but they aren't from netscape. (they do run more stable then......)
2) Getting closer to IE? but still far from prefect. who'll get faster? listen to how we define prefect.
3) If I'm looking for a 2dr. coupe, 5-speed. would you suggest me to go for the SUV because it's more then capable of what I need?
4) Preview Release? (preview of the following questions)
4.7) How to decide when it should be named Final or official release?
4.71) Usable? i.e. how often it crash?
4.73) Count by bugs fixed?
4.74) actually, bug or bugs? countable?

Anyway, these are not really comments on PR2. just want to say "I'm not satified" but ... get used to it, anything on computer stuff.

I'd define "prefect" as a funny way to spell "perfect"

Well, although it may not be as stable as it should be, it's much better than before. Also, Netscape's PR-2 is much less stable than some of the nightly Seamonkey builds on mozilla.org (such as the 8/04 M18 release). I've been using that, and I find it to be amazingly better than PR2. Actually, I like it in many ways better than IE 5.5. However, until they tune it up more and make it a little faster (though it is already pretty good). It supports standards MUCH more than IE 5.5. For example, this CSS test page on W3C:
http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Test/current/sec71.htm
I counted over 15 errors in IE, and 0 in Mozilla. And that's just CSS. Anyway, it has a LOT of potential, and if they continue to develop it at a fast rate then it will do well.

You can get the full Netscape 6 PR2 Win32 release here - no smartdownload nonsense.

ftp://ftp.netscape.com/pub/netscape6/english/6_PR2/windows/win32/sea/N6Setup.exe

I hate to be a "me too" here, but it's true, this software is a pile of s***. Not only is it slow and hogs memory (30MB right after loading with one window!!), but it doesn't really bring any new features. You can change the skin... neat... IE has been able to do that since 3.0, with programs like Neoplanet. There is nothing here that makes me want to use it, and I think they would have to start over and rewrite the entire monstrosity to make it "small and fast". I'm not the biggest fan of IE, I think a browser can work better and faster than IE, but Netscape isn't even comprable now. Hell, Opera is a better browser than this garbage.

What are you talking about? Netscape 6 PR2 is based on Mozilla, which is netscape rewritten from scratch..... Nothing in NS 6 PR2 is from NS 4.x, its a new browser.. And yes it sucks, go get Mozilla instead.

And that sucks too.

No... I meant to REWRITE VERSION 6!! And Mozilla is just as crappy as this, they even use common skins and settings. Anyone saying that "Mozilla is much better than the Netscape release" is deluding themselves.

Netscape advertises: 6 is is a next gen browser that is small, fast, effecient... Now mozilla ALMOST makes this claim legitimate, i download the milestones and am impressed by the improvement in each one, and I think, "hey, maybe NS has a chance".

So I download PR2 from their website. Apparently by small file size they meant 17 megs, and apparently "Smart"download means a peice of s*** program that displays advertisements for ITSELF in an ugly window and doesn't even know where to look for the right files. "Fast" means the program takes longer to load that windows itself. Is it netscape 6? Is it netscape 5? The website and the about files have a difference of opinion. The "Modern" interface reminds me of some 16-color DOS vga display, the classic interface is true to 4.x, but the 4.x interface sucks!

If mozilla/ns6 is so next gen why does it remind me so much of 4.x? I know it is standards compliant and I have notice it does well rendering pages (especially with extensive tables), but jeez get some talent working on the interface and try to make this look a little more like a professional application. the new artwork is horrendous (the cheezy binocular view splash). When I run smartdownload i feel like i'm installing some peice of adware that a 1st year CS student created. Hopefully Mozilla 1.0 will be a good suite and devoid of all this crap netscape is tagging onto it. I am much more optimistic about mozilla 1.0 than NS6 final. Maybe neoplanet will adopt mozilla and do something decent with the code these guys have been working so hard on. And hopefully interface and speed were the things they were planning on doing last because it ain't there right now...

You don't know how many people have called the interface crap. I don't think I've seen more than 4 people that like the modern interface. However, I don't think it's going to be changed because NS marketing seems to want it that way. After it gets close to being finished, people might start producing better skins.

BTW, a good chunk of that 17MB is the Sun Java 2 VM :) I wonder if they are going to release a smaller version for a browser-only VM.

Let me first state that Netscape and Mozilla have done a decent job of catching up to IE but that's about it. This looks like IE, plus a couple proposed features for IE 5.5sp1/ IE 6.0 with a poorly designed interface. I know, you can switch the interface to something better or make your own but I don't have time to make my own interfaces for every damn app on my system. I actually use my machine to do freelance work and to work on stuff I bring home.

I doubt Netscape 6 will take back many users on merit alone. AOL will be the only reason Netscape gets back their lost market share once AOL starts using the Gecko enging in lieu of IE.

stubear, you are an ass

I would consider this piece of software total junk. Looks like AOL has had a hand in this crap.

I thought I would give mozilla a try so I downloaded M17 and I can't even get it to work. As soon as I open it the mozilla splash screen just stays there and freezes up. I won't waste my time with it until it is final

I was originally quite unimpressed by the original preview of Netscape 6 PR1, however, I have to admit that PR2 is usable and except for the default skin; its quite good. I don't think I'll change from IE to Netscape but it is a move in the right direction.

The Voice Of Reason at last :) It seems that most people can't differentiate between Mozilla and Netscape. Netscape 6 is the cr@ppiest load of commercialized and spyware-oriented junk I've ever seen. Mozilla M17, on the other hand, is just what I was looking for.

This is typical of AOL. Take something good, and screw it up beyond belief (read: ICQ).
I'm in a minority on this Pro-MS site in that I believe it's reasonable to try for a good alternative browser. Mozilla M17 is actually very good - although it has a couple of minor glithes, they are just that... minor. AOL of course decided to add a number of *major* problems like they always do.
Please don't judge Mozilla on AOL's cr@p, for I will be among the majority that run Mozilla 1.0 when it's released rather than the AOLified Netscape 6.0. AOL are taking advantage of Open Source freedom to create their own completely separate heap of dung that no serious user will touch IMO.

Well seeing where as this was all done BEFORE AOL baught them....
This release wasn't out yet, but Netscape had already released their code to the Mozilla team and whatnot, so it was crap before AOL got ahold of them (not saying that NS 4 wasn't crap though, lol)

I think you misunderstand something here... Mozilla did start with the original Netscape 4 code (making Netscape 5) but scrapped it because it was rubbish. Hence NS6 was born. Mozilla is excellent, and you can never knock it until you have used M17 - then and only then will I grant you my respect for the opinion whether it be good or bad. Netscape is simply very different, and *is* Mozilla with pointless BS added in. Try the real Mozilla properly before you knock its derivatives.

Seeing where as I said nothing about Mozilla at ALL....

Well,as goes Netscape, so goes Mozilla. If AOL was not funding Mozilla
as much as they are, there would be no Mozilla :)So don't wish Netscape a farewell quite so quickly.

When running the installation and only choosing to install the broswer element, and after all itmes were downloaded with smartdownload...*grr* I get an installtion error:5. and install stops. Okay, second time same thing, and again I have to go thru the whole smart download thing...Im not liking this. I do like mozilla, and have hopes for netscape. I really hope they know what they are doing...

i like and respect netscape. however, there is no compelling reason for anyone with w2k to install and use a netscape browser. that's it! before anyone tries to restate the obvious, i know this thing is pre-beta. the positive notes are it is much faster and has not crashed on my system. but, i just cannot see any reason to install a new browser when ie5.5 or the one (ie5.01) that comes prepackaged with w2k works so seamlessly with the OS and has all the features any regular internet user would need.

exactly... standard windows users (which must be the majority of internet users now?) dont need/want anything mozilla has to offer that IE doesnt.

It's not prebeta....

And, why in the world would you respect Netscape? They are one of the companies trying to trash MS because MS made a better product than them and now they are whinneing over it.

This is pretty obvious - it spawned the MS antitrust case. I prefer Mozilla because it's open-source, and so I'm completely assured that security problems will be ironed out almost immediately (whereas Microsoft would take quite a while in comparison) and I know that there is no spyware BS in there. If you like the built-in stuff then fair enough. But I know there is something that could potentially be far better for those who take the effort to download it. It's like the S/MIME vs PGP argument which I won't get into here.

Don't read the news much do ya?
Seems there is this big broohah about a security flaw in NS that turns it into a webserver (assuming that you can keep the damn thing running long enough). Oh yeah and then there's the flap about Smartdownload having spyware in it but of course AOL says they aren't even looking at that data and so they're going to delete the function (whatever). People continually single out MS and point the finger not understanding what the statistics are. If you hold 90% of the market then there are going to be proportionally more bugs/flaws found than those found in the distance yourselves as far from any loser company as possible) C) s*** or get off the pot (even the diehard NS fans that I work with are getting antsy and pissy about how much time it's taking to get this project done)

great! completely screwed up post. Everything in the middle of the post eaten. Lovely.

umm no, that bug is part of Netscape 4.x and versions that have java... this bug doesn't apply to Mozilla which is what he was talking about..... and if they found a bug like this it would be fixed really fast.

Yes, I do read news and know about the AOL spyware you're referring to. I too trust them as far as I can throw them, as with any large company who buy everybody else. I don't care about AOL - but don't get me wrong, I don't care about Microsoft either for that matter. They are both money-sucking corporations in their own unique way.

What many people fail to understand is that Mozilla is not Netscape. They are different products that use the same code base - Netscape is just AOL's version that will no doubt be filled with Spyware and advertising crap. Given the choice nowadays, I wouldn't touch IE *or* Netscape. Only Mozilla will do. If there was a good open-source OS (not Linux, I'm too young to lose hair) I would use that as well :)

Just so your aware that IE 5.5 is a disaster on Win2K. It takes MS to break MS.

"disaster" is a little strong, my friend. however, i agree with you to the point that i plan to leave 5.5 off my next clean install of w2k.

Come on guys! Post some more comments! I love reading unbiased comments! We've got people who don't know the difference between an installer and a web browser and people who think CSS is old technology even though Microsoft hasn't even released a browser for Windows that supports all of it! I love this stuff!

microsoft supports far more than mozilla does, the only thing microsoft doesnt support is the pointless customizable interface standard... and oh we all need that so much for browsing dont we?!

You clearly have no knowledge of the standards if you make a comment like that. Ever since the days of Netscape 3, Netscape has been FAR more compliant to the W3 [http://www.w3.org] standards that IE has, even to this day.

The only thing IE is compliant to, is its own standards - its proprietary features that no other browser contains. IE has only got away with this strategy because it was bundled with the OS.

Don't get me wrong, I was a staunch Netscape user up until 5 months ago. IE 5+ is a great browser. I'm also very interested to see if Mozilla gains performance in the final builds - if so I would probably switch back over. Netscape 6 is worthless though, a useless hunk of AOL junk that it will just bundle with its frizbees [read Install CD's].

Browser arguments aside, your comment about the standards is unfounded, and shows a lack of insight.

did I hear somebody say that Netscape has supported the W3C standards more than IE ever since Netscape 3? cosmos, you should be ashamed.

Ok, pop-quiz.
Q) What the hell is a LAYER tag? And why won't Mozilla/Netscape 6 support it?

A) I'm guessing probably because
#1: it's not a standard. And thank God it never will be.
#2: It confuses the relationship between HTML and dHTML. HTML can never be dynamic on its own... you can not, and should not, have "layers" in HTML. Only in dHTML. Netscape 4 confuses the whole mess. Mozilla has done the wise thing to throw it out.

Q) In what version did each browser begin to implement any aspect of CSS?

A) Well, Netscape didn't support a thing until Netscape 4. IE started in version 3, although it was extremely basic. Not worth playing with at the time... but it was a start; it was a weak standard at the time, and if MS hadn't done anything with it who knows what would happen. IE4/5 still has better implementation than Netscape 4.

Q) Which browser has better dHTML support?

A) Well, with the LAYER tag, that's hands down IE. But forget the layer tag. You can't use CSS or dHTML properly in tables with Netscape. And Netscape's refresh bug is legendary and infamous. If you want to support the Netscape 4 market, it's not worth finding workarounds for dHTML.

Q) Which has better JavaScript support overall?

A) Umm... IE? Yep. Netscape, although they helped create it, seriously rested on their laurels on this one. They did a lot when they introduced it, but they sat on their hands when it came to DOM support. and their DOM structure still is pretty bad even where it is supported.
---

ok, time's up. If you didn't fare too well, try heading to http://www.w3.org for a refresher.

Bottom line is... Mozilla makes up for all that. I hope to God that AOL wakes up and doesn't step on Mozilla in the process of using all the work that's been put in for so long. Mozilla has far better standards support than any browser since probably Mosiac version 1.0, which isn't really much competition. Plus, just how long did it take you to download Netscape? Vs. how long it took you to download bug-ridden IE5.5 (I don't care if you're running in W2K or not)?

Mozilla is a superior browser as far as a proof-of-concept goes. There's still working on the details. Anybody who works in software knows that you really can't hold a piece of software accountable until the second major release, and we haven't even hit the first major release yet. So give them some room... wait a little while, then scoop up the next major browser to clean the market.

That's an absolute lie to say "Ever since the days of Netscape 3, Netscape has been FAR more compliant to the W3 [http://www.w3.org] standards that IE has, even to this day."

Now Netscape 6, maybe, but earlier versions were handily outdone by IE when it came to standards compliance. IE was the first to support CSS1, DHTML, etc., and its current support is better than Netscape 4's.

Heck, Netscape 4 doesn't even fully support HTML 4.0! Have you ever accidentally left off an TD end tag (which is perfectly legal and encouraged in the HTML spec)? The result is not pretty.

Well, I didn't want to be the first to say it! One missing and the whole thing c***s up. Many, many hours have been wasted trying to make a site Netscape compatible, simply because of the way it displays tables and implements Javascript!

Dont get me wrong, I'm not an MS zealot or a netscape hater, but if you say you meet 100% standards and then present us with something that blatantly isnt, you're asking for trouble.

- OpCode
www.OpCodesWorld.com - member driven news and discussions

Amen. I can't count the nights and weekends I've spent cursing at Netscape, pulling my hair out trying to get it to display even the simplest pages properly. Leave out a '' or '' and the whole page is rendered as a blank window. I mean, what's up with that? I'm all about writing proper code--don't get me wrong. But Netscape is so rigid and unforgiving! And God help you if you put an underscore in the filename of your external stylesheet! What a mess!

...leave out a close-TD or close-TR tag and...(above)

We're going to need some of the "pointless" feaures it to save us from Netscape 6's default interface.

This is my second attempt at trying out. The first time, I was turned off with the sluggish performance so I removed it. I decided to give it a spin again, still slow and sluggish. Some pages don't correctly load and I can't seem to login at the Betanews forums (quite possibly other forums, as well.). This is a half-decent attempt by Netscape to
compete against I.E, all they need to do is optimize the code and it will own. I'm glad that they left the classic Netscape skin in there, as well since I'm getting bored with the fruity Mozilla skin. I just hope the final version of Netscape 6 isn't this trashy.

I don't think they've started to do major performance work yet.

HELLO?? Has anyone actually taken their heads out of their MS-filled asses yet? Mozilla (and thus Netscape 6) is PRE-BETA. It's not SUPPOSED to be fast yet. Are you all completely stupid, blind or just damn ignorant?

The subect is probably accurate. It still needs a hell of a lot of work before the it is out of beta. Also it would be nice if it supported VBScript but I guess that is wishful thinking! Despite having previously been a Netscape devotee, I'll stick to I.E 5.5 for now.

I was only providing constructive criticism about NS6. Looks like you can't do the same to other peoples post.

still slow and sluggish

well, traditionally, Mozilla beats IE up and down as far as speed goes. What platform are you running on?

Some pages don't correctly load
I'm not sure what you mean by "correctly". Is this "correctly" as in standards-support? In which case, it probably didn't load "correctly" in any other browser, and Mozilla/Netscape 6 is the first one to show it to you as it should be. Otherwise... I'm not sure what you mean.

Try 2cpu.com through I.E or Netscape 4.x and notice the seven, light brown buttons off to middle left hand position. This is the normal layout. Now, goto the same site under NS6 PR-2 and you will notice that the very same buttons mentioned will appear in the "middle". Also, scroll to the right and you will notice that the site just s***ed. The system runs Windows 2K SP-1. Can you replicate my results?

Okay, sorry, I was tired. Just re-read your post, and you are quite right that it was just constructive criticism (apart from the final "hope the full one isn't this crappy" - of course it won't be, this is still pre-beta). The people I'm really addressing are those who post a message like "Netscape sucks, it's slow and buggy, nobody should use it and the Mozilla project should stop." I've seen lots like that, and it makes me wonder how much they contributed themselves.

Yes, mozilla renders that page funny. The page itself looks corrupted. (view source in ie or mozilla to see what I mean.)

There are two start body tags, and three start html tags. It's a miracle any browser can parse that!

This stupid thing keeps giving me a network error when downloading all the crap. Ive tried like 10 times to get it. I think I will just stick with nice IE.

There's a difference between the browser and the installer. You do know that, don't you?

Yes I know that. But since the whole world has converted to this download each individual item then install it crap its confused the people at Netscape. They then forgot how to write software that correctly downloads then installs the stuff. Therefor giving me download errors. You are right though it technically isn't the installer in that stage, is the download the installer step.

You give up after a single network error that is probably your own connection?
Then why did you bother? You were clearly already biased towards IE with the typical "let's suck Gates' you-know-what" attitude that most of the people here have.

I had no problems installing PR2 - it all went without a hitch.

One thing I can't figure out is why the folk at Netscape ( and Microsoft too), don't seem to be able to grasp the concept that smart update is REALLY DUMB! I much prefer being able to download software as one single file with one single mouse click! Forget the bundled add-ons like Net2Phone etc Let people download them seperately when and if they want them!

Having to send this post in IE because M17 wouldnt let me login to this site (seems to be sending the password wrong, and yes I KNOW its the correct password cos I can type it in fine in IE).

The same arguments that mozillla had against it still apply, its support for [proposed] standards is poor (CSS + dhtml etc).

It might have a wonderful customizable interface, so you can have a nice (once you get rid of the default theme - come on guys DO SOMETHING more interesting as the default!) UI, but what good is that when most sites you visit display in a limited way compared to IE. Mozillas main problem is that MOST sites are now designed for IE, if the javascript detects you are using anything other than IE, chances are the dhtml will be disabled and you will get a very poor looking site compared to the IE optimized version. I'd guess around 50% of sites around now use dhtml for menus at least now, you go to those sites in IE, you get the dhtml menus, you go there with mozilla, you get a dull, static page.

Which do you want? Good looking tool bars? or good looking sites?

Mozilla is STARTING to look good, but it doesnt match IE on features or [proposed] standards, even when it DOES match IE on the standards, matching it isnt going to be enough to start to win back some of its share of the market. It needs to be a LOT beter than IE to win back users, and Netscape 6/Mozilla isn't going to be the product for that.

Remember people design sites for their target users[/browsers], and MOST users out there are people who go for the safe options, who just want to sit down and browse. While there are thousands of new pc's each day being sold with IE already installed and the users not needing anything else, mozilla will continue to lose market share.

Why go looking for a different (and not any better) browser, download it, install it, deal with any installation issues etc, when you already have a working browser that lets you see all the pages you want to see, and see them how they were designed to look?

mozilla is dead, they would have been better off putting more effort into optimizing it for linux and other 'net appliances, forget about windows, people with windows dont NEED[ or even WANT?] mozilla, wrong target users!

I don't like it. I don't like having to register. I don't like having to have a unique email address. "no@spam.com" is already taken by another user, please enter a unique email address to use our s***ty browser. Ya, uhm, okay Netscape, whatever. CSS support is better, but freakin' come on man, it's a 4-year old technology. Get with the damned game. IE kicks ass. Netscape must die.

Netscape has been cr@p-ified by AOHELL. I wouldn't touch it with a 10ft pole! Use the actual Mozilla milestone, it's FAR better. And it doesn't have a spyware company backing it.

If you don't want to register then don't register! There's a cancel button you know that bypasses the registration. Alternatively use Mozilla and you'll get the same browser but without all the AOL/Netscape sponsored links.

It's far much better than PR1.

Mozilla is getting better and better everyday.
I love it!!

Well, I recently installed this PR2 on my system. The install went fine. No glitches. None whatsoever. The program even ran without error, at least for the length of time that I could sit and use it without getting sick to my stomach.

Netscape 6, like it's sister (?), Mozilla (5?), is the ugliest web browser I've ever used. I actually thought the interface changes made in Netscape 4, back when it was previewed, were impressive. But this thing just blows. I don't care how functional it is, if I throw up while using it, well, I ain't gonna.

Hello Lamer

you can install the classic skin if you bother to look at it. The mozilla nightlys and m17 are much better so grab that even mozillazine.org slags off netscape pr2 and calls it a "mess" Smoketesters are well pissed that bugs they reported where not fixed mozilla is gonna kick IE 5.5's big fat arse but not quite yet.

real nice..."Hello Lamer"...thats real good. Someone posts their opinion and you call them a Lamer and procede to post your own opinion about Mozilla crap, thats real smooth. Here, try this one on for size.

Hello Dumass

Mozilla isn't going to kick anything except the daises it pushes up because it sucks d***. I figure that was about as polite as you deserve...****wit.

Ummm... you get mad at the guy for being rude and then you respond being extremely rude yourself... are we supposed to believe you are a more mature person? At least they're not the hypocrite.

Calling someone a lamer is being tame I did not swear like the other person did i was just trying to show that i was angry that someone has posted there view without trying the software out that they are using first if you dont like the default interface change it to classic

Can't we all just get along!!!!!!!!!!!!

I am looking forward to the final release of Netscape 6 and I hope it does kick IE's ass.

no!? computer flame wars have existed since the beginning of time!

they will never end!

yeah well computers have existed since the beginning of time ass

I don't know guys... I got Netscape 6 preview 2 and I think it sucks. I never liked Netscape... and 6 sucks even more than 4... IE5.5 is cool. I like it. Never any problems. Mozilla? Never tried it. I will though, for the sake of trying it. Should I get the milestone build or the overnight build?

Well I have paid my money and I am going to stick with lean, mean Opera for Windows!

you know i got a copy of 4.05 netscape pro on my machine works like a dream what happen from then till now. maybe they ought to go back to go forward

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Really depends on whether you want better stability or more polished features. The milestone build has been stabilized more, but the nightly build is more recent so it has all the new improvements.