Umm... oookay George.

This has what to do with HD DVD Chinese involvement?

dvdXsoft DVD to Zune Converter can convert video DVD to MP4 Video files suitable for Zune, PSP or iPod devices!...

www.zuneconverter.net/dvd-to-zune

I guess while we're 'on the subject', HandBrake does it better.

http://handbrake.m0k.org/

It's open source, GPL-licensed, multi-platform, and multi-threaded.

Same comments different article. Let it go guys this stuff is not that important. You're ripping into each other for no reason. It's obvious many here share a passion for tech stuff. Leave it at that. As far as my prediction if you wanted to know where I stand. I think the format that will "win" will be one that is cheapest to the consumer since the advantage over hd anydisk to dvd is not as significant as it was with dvd vs vhs. The difer ances between bd and hdvd are small in the eyes of the consumer. The only big one is price. So if hdvd does cost way less to give you hd picture then it will probably eventually "win".

9/11/01 "never forget"

Spot on demi. Price beyond everything else is what matters in the end, and once the ball gets really rolling it's over. I hope this pushes it over the edge because I for one am sick and tired of it all. I just isn't that big of deal. I just want the bs to end and the burners/media to finally get to a decent price.

WOW, I can't believe people argue like this over a movie format!!! heh

I can almost understand it for video game consoles, and sports teams. But come on....movie disc format?

It's such a pointless argument anyway. Before either one REALLY takes hold, digital storage, will be preferred method of getting and watching movies. 2-3 years from now, solid state drives will be cheap and HUGE, and you'll all be wondering why you have 100 physical movie cases on a shelf.

2-3 years from now? Sure...I bet the MPAA will allow that to happen...

"I can't believe people argue like this over a movie format!!! heh"

- Yeah but it's not really that, is it?

It's that plenty of people have finally had enough of the lying manipulative & very obvious shilling BS of the Sony PR 'machine' with their fake web-sites and fake 'members of the general public' talking sh*te & slamming everything that isn't Sony or Sony connected (as Blu-ray so obviously is).
The PS3 connection also means there is a higher than usual ignorant & idiotic fanboy count on this one, trying to convince people (and yes they are dumb enough to really imagine they're 'making a difference', 'selling' the product)

The fact that they are trying to s*** such an obviously (and purpose designed) anti-consumer heap of cr@p as this Blu-ray is, as they lie about it and the competitor, just adds to the strength of negative felling about it.

They of course are just getting ever more desperate - cos Sony has basically bet 'the farm' on this one.

It all just adds a little 'zing' to it, that's all.

They're just reaping what they sowed......and showing them up for the ill-informed idiot shills that they so clearly are is just a little fun, it's the 'e' version of 'poking them with a long stick'.

If you think that's all paranoia & imagination then go check out 'phase hydra'.

.....and as for digital storage?
I doubt it, not for some time - oh I agree that it'll be big at some point in the future but people do like their handy physical back-ups.
Once you start to collect several hundred things on the one unit that can go counter to being 'handy' and easy to use.
It's a bit like having a full 8gb mp3 player, unless you're incredibly well organised it can be a bit of a mess and more likely to confuse, annoy & put you off of the idea than attract.

An on-line digital library is great in theory and may indeed come, one day, but imagine if you lost all the pictures, music and movies that you have stored and had to go find them all again on the net.
Of course it could probably be done, eventually, but it'd be a major pain in the ass.

Also the idea of accessing everything on-line - particularly HD content - is kind of flying in the face of the speed and capacity problems many people in many countries (even advanced countries) face and will face for many years to come.

That's why the Sony shills who love to spout a line of PR BS that pretends Microsoft want both formats to fail are so clearly lying.

No-one in their right mind is dismissing physical storage for a long time yet.......although I do agree that HDD storage is a serious contender for the home user offering an excellent gb/$ ratio.
Sadly they're just not quite as widely known or perceived to be as 'user friendly' as a disc amongst the less 'techy' members of the general public.

But it might be correct to say that this may be the disc's last gen, who knows?

Jeremy,

There's a great reason why people argue over something like this. Money.

Early adopters (like Dave) bought a player for one format or the other and chose sides because they don't have the money to buy a player for the competing format.

I am an HD-DVD fan simply for the fact that I bought a PS3 at launch and then found out how many problems Blu-Ray has. I then got an XA1 and aside from it's slow load time was an excellent player. I then bought the 360 add-on, then the A2.

As an owner of both formats and both adult gaming consoles, I can make educated decisions based on experience as to which is better. Dave over there is broke and cheerleads BD on a dozen different websites and spends all his time promoting Blu-Ray.

The problem is he has turned more people off of the format than he has convinced people it's better, which it isn't except in disc storage.

People like Dave live, eat and breathe Blu-Ray simply for the fact he has nothing better to do. I am simply here to make him look as stupid as possible which he does a great job of doing all by himself.

I basically just sit and laugh while he changes usernames and tries to convince everybody BD is better. I work at home and I am on my computer for 15 hours straight sometimes so I can come here any time while I'm taking a break to berade this lemming.

It's sad to see someone like him spend so much time worrying about something as stupid as this, he even recruits people from the blu-ray.com forums to register here and post BD propaganda.

I couldnt imagine being so obsessed with anything.

Just stick around and watch his monosyllabic, unintelligible rants. He genuinely gets upset about HD-DVD being better. These are facts, HD-DVD has about 1/20th of the market share of players compared to Blu-Ray including the PS3 and still manages to sell about 40% of all HD movies sold.

I for one think they will both go the way of SACD and DVD-Audio. Remember, if he truly though Blu-Ray was better, he wouldnt be here trying to convince everyone is was.

As you can see below, he even logs in under my username with capital "I's" in place of lowercase "l's" t make it look like I am now promoting Blu-Ray.

I think he's a eunuch. He's more obsessed with me than he is Blu-Ray.

In addition to the reasons Hollywood and Hocuspokus have already given (and they've been quite thorough in their responses in the past as well) regarding the pro-Sony/PS3/Blu-ray camp and their tactics of manipulation, deception, and propaganda, this individual on AVS Forums summed up the current state of Blu-ray and HD DVD quite nicely:

http://www.avsforum.com/...showthread.php?t=899662

Also, there is yet another reason why their tactics are downright disgusting. They simply refuse to acknowledge facts about their beloved format that negate all of their efforts to convince people otherwise... facts such as this one:

http://www.campaignhd.com/807_BD11_Update.html

It is for the sole purpose of discrediting these sad individuals repeatedly that these topics usually see such regular activity... and it certainly doesn't just happen here on this forum. To be honest, it's quite subdued here, comparatively speaking.

hmm, dave may be obsessing a little too much over BluRay, but seems like your obsessing quite a bit about dave.

But to readers out there, I'd avoid taking any of these comments as serious talking points in either direction.

You want to make a buy? Go to real reviewers sites far far away from the fan boys on this site.

But who knows, maybe I'm really dave on the other side.

That AVS link you posted sums up what I have been expecting for a long time about Blu-Ray. It's not ready for prime time and won't be for another year.

Here it is again in case anyone wants to see what's really going on with BD: http://www.avsforum.com/...showthread.php?t=899662

You will see other studios pull out due to the problems with BD-J and 1.1

I have had 0 problems with a single HD-DVD disc or any of the HDi features. They cue up immediately and are seamless with the movie.

I rent quite a bit of BD movies from Netflix and just like the video I posted, I couldnt get the POTC 2 features to work either.

It's sad and pathetic that people are so brainwashed that they can't see the format is such a POS.

Too bad Dave wont be able to read it as his IP has been banned over at AVS.

It would be rather humorous to include a "Where's Waldo" type of BD-J game on Blu-ray releases called "Where's Profile 1.1"...

The only thing is, no one would be able to play it.

Maybe it will appear as an HDi extra. That's sure to provide hours of fun until people give up trying to find it. :)

I would say hold off from making a purchase for now.
Sit back and enjoy the entertainment at blu-ray.com and avs.
When its all over go out and purchase the winning machine :)

Agreed.

Great stuff there. I find it interesting that none of the shills have attacked you yet. Maybe they are still looking for ways to dodge the issues that were brought up. Looking very sad for blo-ray.

"I find it interesting that none of the shills have attacked you yet."

I found that interesting as well. Even if it were something just downright ludicrous (which it usually always is), they usually respond with something.

Maybe they're finally starting to realize. I really do feel sorry for them sometimes. They're the victims in all this.

"Too bad Dave wont be able to read it as his IP has been banned over at AVS."

Ahh, good point.

Then this is for Dave. :)

http://www.campaignhd.com/807_State_Of_BD.html

AVS Forums have always been HD DVD supporters, basically because it's full of early adopters that's don't want to end up having backed the losing format, and will go to insane lengths to try and derail Blu-Ray dominance.

You only have to read this guys first sentence, to see he is biased.

"I was writing a piece where I was interpreting and analysing the public statements by Paramount, Dreamworks and Viacom over their stunning decision last week,"

Nice one, pretend that Paramount,Viacom and Dreamworks are all different companies, making independent decisions. They are all part of the same deal...

HD DVD fanatics are the worst kind, they spew their tripe over forums, and attempt to spin bad news into good. "HD DVD may take 3 minutes to boot up, but it gives you time to make popcorn"

LOL, the petition has 5,800 signatures since October 2006.

That will REALLY make the studios sit up and take notice...

You see that is where you are wrong, the Sony fanboys consistantly spew crap and incorrect information. I only see you calling him a fan boy but not disputing anything which for you is very unusal. I guess even you are having a hard time digging out from the hole you are already standing in.

And quotes pulled from bluray.com are not an unbiased! That site has the biggest collection of childish ideas and comments I have ever seen in one forum.

AVS tends to lean towards what the best is and they have picked HD so they are fanboys. If they had picked blo-ray tehy would be warriors in the blo army as people on bluray say. Give it up.

Speaking of boot up time ave you seen the boot time for Pirates what is it like forever.

There has only been one very weak response I find this very weird. The army has called a special meeting to determine what kind of lies they can respond with, stay tuned.

I noticed you didn't try to defend a single statement they made. Is that because they are all true?

Nice fake Hollywood post, I still dont get what you are trying to prove.

He got banned months ago SDG, they don't put up with the crap that BetaNews does and he is pissed.

Did you notice he had to go to work just to see the AVS forum post and visit under an IP that isn't banned?

Tosser.

"AVS Forums have always been HD DVD supporters"

Apparently AVS Forum's intelligent members severely outnumber the, shall we say, misguided.

You know, the AVS Forums reference not withstanding, replace every instance of "HD DVD" with "Blu-ray" (and vice versa) in your post and you could not have a truer statement.

There is nothing about the line you quoted indicating any level of bias towards HD DVD... and yes, they are separate companies, regardless of the fact that they were part of the same deal.

Pretend all you like that the Smurf army hasn't dissected, contorted, and mutilated their own analysis of the decision to jump ship for weeks.

Your hypocrisy is astounding.

While that article may be an opinion piece, it is littered with undeniable facts that directly counter each and every one of your own opinions.

"You know, the AVS Forums reference not withstanding"

- Keep up mate, don't you know "microsoft's avsforums" is the latest little dig the drones have been encouraged to use on bluray.com?

You know, I would love just once for one of the Smurfs to try to debate what's in front of them, instead of pitifully attempting to spread more propaganda (usually having nothing to do with the topic at hand) when the facts are placed squarely at their feet.

Sorry, I guess I've been living under a rock. I suppose I need to start paying more attention to what's going on around me.

Let's see...

Studio support, then player pricing, then number of titles, then Nielsen sales data, then Amazon ranking, now this and the triple-layer media... all this with a rock-solid spec since inception.

Wow, looks like HD DVD is making BD their b*tch.

I think I'm all caught up now. :)

This is how great Blu-Ray is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gQG4OFgrpA

Man, that is one of the funniest yet saddest things I've seen in a long time.

Things just keep looking worse and worse for this format. The elitist attitude is what perplexes me the most. Things such as the upcoming (Q2 2008) Denon player(s) that tout BD Profile 1.1 support. What in the world makes them think that supporting those features (which should have been mandatory to begin with) allows them to attempt to extort a premium of almost $1000 over the cost of most of the currently available "high end" BD players (which are already criminally overpriced for what they provide... or don't provide, rather)?

So let me get this straight... for an expected retail price of $2000, I could get a BD player that supports the features that even the low-end, lowest-priced models should have supported from the beginning, yet additional information (subtitles, audio streams, camera angles, trailers, games, etc.) needs to be downloaded from the internet on a PC and transferred via SD card to the player? Good grief, what's the premium to have that ability included in the player??? Also... no DVD-Audio or SACD support? On a $2000 Denon??? Anyone stupid enough to pay that much deserves the disappointment that is sure to follow afterwards when they realize they've been had in the worst way possible.

It doesn't seem like the BDA is that serious about making their precious available to the general public. Their arrogance will be their downfall.

Dang, looks like the HD DVD 51GB tripple layer spec has been finalised, but all existing players are incompatible with them. Looks like you need a new HD DVD player to play them.

Oh dear...

*yawn*

Oh look, Shadow Hollywood is back...

"looks like the HD DVD 51GB tripple layer spec has been finalised, but all existing players are incompatible with them. Looks like you need a new HD DVD player to play them."

- No it doesn't you lying moron.

HD DVD hardware has been capable of reading Triple Layers since the very 1st HD DVD drive on day 1.

http://www.cloetens.be/custom/home/hd_dvd.pdf

What a loser.

LOL, imitation is the most sincere form of flattery. It's so obvious this guy hates himself.

Heh, true. Poor little guy. I bet he's secretly wanting out of the club, but doesn't quite know how to break it to Papa Smurf yet.

There is nothing in that link about 51GB discs I can see.

Is this a new press release concerning the recently ratified tripple layer spec, or just some randon NEC spec paper from several years back? (I like the 90GB HD DVD discs, where I can I get these please..).

Fact is, you need a new player to play these new 51GB HD DVD discs. Toshiba just sold you down the river.

wow you really need to get a life shadow

"There is nothing in that link about 51GB discs I can see".

The HR1100A was the very first HD DVD gen 1 drive, right?

.....are you seriously trying to say that they shelved the TL capacity as they moved from gen 1 to gen 2 to gen 3 (and all as they developed the 51gb TL disc?).

Give it up, you've done this one to death and are now just looking like pouty little brats who's sweeties have been taken away.

1st of all you claimed it would never happen, then it was it'll never work and now it's that it's still a 'prototype' and won't work with everything.
If that's the best doubt you can manage to spew that's pretty pathetic.

30 days is all we've been asked to wait for a major public announcement on the subject.

Man, but I hope you're around so I can laugh in your face, shill loser.

I can't figure out if you are just bored or like to comment on things you have no clue about...

Its been speculated that if it wasn't compatible with the previous generation of players, it wouldn't have been approved. Testing is currently underway on verifying if it will be until then no one knows if it will work or not.

The daily DaveBG quote from blu-ray.com:

The thread title was:

IFA 2007: Pioneer Blu-ray Player, Cars, Sin City

Dave says:

"That is awesome news! Go Blu! Save us from the hd dvd misery! :)"

What a flacid clown.

Transformers is number 4 on Amazon, 300 is BD's top selling movie at 53. Looks like Paramount is going to sell some movies this holiday season.

Holly, clown is better than a retard which you prove you are every day LOL :) Get a boyfriend already and stop searching the web for "mine" comments.

Get life and accept that hd dvd failed once again. And Pioneer will only kick your arse this time, next time it will be someone else. :D

By the way "Hollywood__" and "Hocuspokus" are sister and brother respectively. (yeah they are the only two hd dvd fanboys here that would sell their soul to the devil and they write miles long posts all they long here if that would hurt sony - is that not retarded?)

At least you admitted you're a clown. Wow, you can tell he's embarrassed. LMAO! Exactly the reaction I wanted, thanks.

How's that online petition you started for Universal to go Blu-Ray coming? You complete loser, it sounded like a five year old wrote a letter to Santa begging for toys.

WTF is wrong with you? Don't you like girls?

"and they write miles long posts all they long here if that would hurt sony - is that not retarded?)"

- It's called being literate and interested in a discussion of the facts beyond the most shallow & superficial, Dave.

Obviously you never let yourself worry about any of that tho, eh?

I don't care which format wins or why it wins. Just as long as I get cheaper HI-DEF. Enough with this crap of 500 dollar players and movies that cost 35-40 bucks for what mostly are crap movies anyways. I love hi-def and want it. And i want hd'dvd burners or whatever, and i want it fast. I download allot of crap and the tiny 4.35gig limit of dvd sucks bigtime. And even the dual layer disks cost to much. Enough with the BS and get the s*** to market cheap and fast. I live in the real would, and I just care about what i want. And now I need cheaper storage media and a cheaper burner for them.

Sorry misread it - AVS, not AVC.

please ignore

Since 2004, China has taken a public stand against becoming too involved in what it described as "Western-influenced technologies" in the development of high-def technology.

I have oil in my back yard but I'm not going to drill as I don't want to become to involved in what might be described as "Eastern-influenced fuel distribution" in the easement of soaring fuel prices in the U.S. of A.

This is BS.

"Typically with MPEG, macroblocks using 4 x 4 pixel squares are used."

No they aren't. Blocks are 8x8, macroblocks are 16x16.

"But for Prof. Ahmad's team's experiment, they tried a technique that, based on others' theories, should not have worked."

Oh really, why not?

"From the Hong Kong team's 2001 paper: "A picture is divided into macroblocks, since such division results in more efficient coding. Each macroblock consists of four luminance blocks and two spatially aligned color difference blocks. Each of these blocks [is] of size 8 x 8 pixels."

Congratulations! You just did basically the same as MPEG! 4 8x8 luma blocks per macroblock, and two subsampled chroma blocks. WOW!!

"One or more macroblock rows are combined into a group of blocks (GOB) to enable quick resynchronization after transmission errors."

Wow, you just re-invented slices, too!

"It's the 8 x 8 macroblock that was key to simplifying the algorithm and accelerating the encoding sequence."

That's THE SAME algorithm as MEPG 4 ASP.

"AVS is China independent standard which based on homeland innovative technology and partial public technology. AVS coding efficiency is more than 2-3 time of MPEG-2, and similar with AVC. Moreover the AVS technical plan is succinct; chip is less complex."

It sounds like they just created their own DivX/XVID (based on MPEG-4 ASP).

On the other hand, AVC/H.264 allows for more extensive variable block sizes.

What a lot of FUD.

......and now the 51gb HD DVD disc gets DVD Forum approval.

http://www.screendigest....ates/vi-060907-ec3/show

Another element to HD DVD the Blu-ray fanclub all swore blind was 'vapor-ware' & a myth that would never happen comes to be reality.

Read it and weep.

So that's HD DVD with
(1) the largest disc size;
(2) the largest available, exclusive and potential content;
(3) a proper range of price and spec;
(4) the lowest entry level by a country mile;
(5) high-end products (like the HD XA2) at the level of the Blu-ray entry level;
(6) the highest bit-rate (54mbps for the 51gb TL disc) and
(7) a future.

Enjoy your proprietary format PS3 owners; shame you all got led up the garden path (again) by your beloved CE corporation but if you will just blindly believe their PR BS what do you expect?

Ouch! Lets see Paramount goes HD-DVD,China is now going to get the prices down, and now the only thing Blu-Ray had left going for it which was space and bitrate is now no more. Blu-Ray is already in the hole and now the dirt is being shoveled back in. Oh and like Hocus said what was that you guys were saying about the 51GB disc never happening? Hate to break out the I told yah sos....Oh wait...No I don't. =p

Disc size isnt so important tho comon :) HD-DVD side always argues that so you cant suddenly go on about how it now has the largest size disc.
And thats likely to be short lived, blu-ray can do the same.

"And thats likely to be short lived, blu-ray can do the same."

Heh, yeah... and more than likely leave an ever-growing group of poor saps with yet another generation of functionally-challenged BD players.

"Disc size isnt so important tho comon :)"

- This is true - as we can see with the excellent 30gb HD DVD releases.....and the fact that (besides some noises from Disney) there is no demand for the big disc from the industry.

But it seems obvious that a few movies will use it, it just gives flexibility.

My own bet is that it becomes an option for people using the imminent HD DVD burners......ironically to burn Blu-ray rips of the remaining content not available on HD DVD.

" HD-DVD side always argues that so you cant suddenly go on about how it now has the largest size disc."

- Sure they can if they have it.

If the Blu-ray side are always going on about their 50gb disc it's perfectly legitimate for the HD DVD side to point out that they too offer this size.

- But that's nothing like the same as trying to pretend there is a huge 'need' for it.

"And thats likely to be short lived, blu-ray can do the same."

- In theory yes but in practice no.

Blu-ray is still having horrible problems replicating their dual layer 50gb disc (everyone but Sony are getting yields of about 10%.......even the 25gb single layer disc is said to be getting yields of only 70% - 80%.....whereas the more known HD DVD tech is getting 95% yields on their 30gb Dual layer discs).

So like I said, in theory the Blu-ray side can go for more layers but in practice they would cost so much (and need new hardware) that there is no practical point or incentive for them to do so.

1) the largest disc size;
- Yeah is 3 layesr right? If i overturn Blu-ray i will get 52GB which you cant do with 51GB 3 layer prototype.
You lose

(2) the largest available, exclusive and potential content;
- Wrong, Blu-ray have more movies available, more studio support and more hardware support
You lose

(3) a proper range of price and spec;
- What should that mean? Blu-ray have a lot more variants like BD20, 50, and in the future 100 and 200. What hd dud have? 15 (lol) and 30. And is cheaper per GB.
You lose

(4) the lowest entry level by a country mile;
- Again crap. You like lying arent you?

The rest below is the same. BD have the best players and transfer rate this can not be hidden.

Yep, that did it. If there was ever any shred of doubt about this person's intelligence in the past, it was finally put to rest with that gibberish.

$sql->Query("SELECT * FROM DaveBG WHERE clue != 0");
0 rows returned

The fact that he is so stupid is what makes it fun to pick on him. I would love to go at it with someone of my intelligence but Steven Hawking is always busy.

As you can see, he somehow thinks BD has the cheapest player. LMAO at petition boy.

"If i overturn Blu-ray i will get 52GB which you cant do with 51GB 3 layer prototype."

- I take it you meant to say 'over-burn'?
Wrong

You can't overburn BD, you idiot.

In fact due to manufacturing difficulties many supposedly 50gb aren't 50gb at all, they are 40+ something gb discs in reality.

But being the 'Blu-ray insider' that you claim you are you (don't) know that, right Dave?

LMAO.

"Blu-ray have more movies available, more studio support and more hardware support"

- Wrong (again).

Before Paramounts announcement a Blu-Ray supporter had access to 62% of all available HiDef titles, while a HD DVD supporter had access to 61%.

After the Viacom/Paramount/Dreamworks/MTV Film/Nickelodeon announcement the HD DVD supporter still has 61% - that hasn't changed, but the Blu-Ray supporter now has only 55%.

This does not take imports into account or disks distributed in other countries (HD DVD's Studio Canal releases aren't there in those stats for instance). The figures are based on:

http://www.blu-raystats.com/index.php

http://hddvdstats.com/index.php

Which cover American releases only.

Neither owner gives up on half of all available titles.

The HD DVD supporter misses out on 39% while the Blu-Ray owner now misses out on 45%.

But if you take into account that 60 of those supposedly 'exclusive' Blu-ray titles are in fact available on HD DVD internationally (which thanks to HD DVD being region-free everytime you can buy without worry) it turns out Blu-ray currently has in fact only 124 or so exclusive titles (and that was before this move by Viacom/Paramount. MTV Film/Dreamworks/Nickelodeon).

Now that they have decided so decisively Paramount will begin to ramp up production which will actually end up making a much bigger difference than before or is visible in those numbers too
(and offsetting the return of Fox to Blu-ray disc production.......cos they were nowhere to be seen until their announcement the day after Paramount spoke - and have yet to deliver into the market anything tangible).

In the USA there are 292 HD DVD movies available according to this site here -
http://hddvdstats.com/index.php

this compares to Blu-ray's 297 according to the stats here -
http://www.blu-raystats.com/index.php

These sites also currently show
(and remember this is pre-the Viacom/Paramount move)
Blu-ray with 184 exclusive movies and HD DVD with 179.

But as mentioned earlier this is not true.

Those numbers only apply to movies sourced within the USA; in fact the Blu-ray total is approx 60 less 'exclusive movies' than claimed; so Blu-ray actually has only 124 or so genuinely 'exclusive movies' to HD DVD's 179 exclusive films.

That's thanks to different publishing and distribution deals in other parts of the world
(and thanks to HD DVD being region-free everytime)
so you can source over 60 of those supposedly 'Blu-ray exclusive' movies internationally on HD DVD because they are actually only 'Blu-ray exclusive' in the USA.

These sites show you which and how; there are lists of over 60 of those movies here -
http://areahd.dvdtiefpreise.com/?p=109
and here
http://forums.highdefdig...m/show...5960#post45960

So in fact HD DVD has just over 60 additional discs to add to the total available claimed at this site (292 + 60 = ) 352 movies in total currently available HD DVD movies to Blu-ray's total of 297, giving HD DVD a significantly larger amount of available content.

Just in from CEDIA 2007

Warner, Universal, Paramount, Dreamworks and Dreamworks Animation to release an additional 125 new HD DVD titles by the end of '07.

"What should that mean?"

- It means that without the PS3 Blu-ray died and was buried long ago.

"Again crap. You like lying arent you?"

- Wrong
Current HD DVD entry point is the Toshiba HD A2, $220.
Soon to be the Venturer/Shinco @ $149.

Who's lying Dave? Show me the Blu-ray player at anything like those prices.

"The rest below is the same."

- LMAO.

Wow, how convincing, great handle on the facts there BD shill.

"BD have the best players and transfer rate this can not be hidden."

- Wrong

Besides the PS3 and Sony S300 almost no-one is buying any other Blu-ray players.

What do you mean by "best players".....Blu-ray players that are 'profile 1.0' (like every one of them is right now) with nothing like the same advanced features as all the HD DVD players?

.....and neither the PS3 or S300 are 'profile 1.1' or 'profile 2.0' compliant either.

.....and at 1.5 x the 36mbps bit-rate the 51gb TL disc actually has a a higher bit-rate (@ 54mbps) than Blu-ray.

.....but the instructions from BD central command are hilarious we all knew bit-rate wouls uddenly become your mantra (you left out not in the shops yet - but hinted at it with 'prototype'.....s'funny how a prototype is something approved as fully functional by the DVD Forum and not for PC burning.....so that's a few points deducted for not being an 'on message' little shill there Dave)

......and you can tell you're pissed off and really choked by this news as your English goes down the sh*tter.

They're like kids or manic football fans, they don't care about the facts cos they either don't know them or are blind to them in their blinkered 'support' or 'love' and 'hate' for CE corporations.

It's pretty tragic really.

You realise that current HD DVD players do not have the hardware capable of focusing on the 3rd layer?

What this means?

Best case, movies are laid out, so main movie is on layer 1 and 2, and new players can read the extras on layer 3

Worst case, current players are trash, and you have to buy a new player.

Don't let people fool you that a simply firmware update will allow the pickup to focus on the 3rd layer, it's simply not possible.

Kinda makes the Profile 1.1 BD problems really insignificant!!

"You realise that current HD DVD players do not have the hardware capable of focusing on the 3rd layer?"

- You really are a sadly ill-informed ludicrously sad troll.

Triple layer was in the specs of the very first HD DVD drives, in fact.

http://www.cloetens.be/custom/home/hd_dvd.pdf

"You realise that current HD DVD players do not have the hardware capable of focusing on the 3rd layer? "

- Wrong. Triple layer was in the specs of the very first HD DVD drives, in fact.

http://www.cloetens.be/custom/home/hd_dvd.pdf

"Best case, movies are laid out, so main movie is on layer 1 and 2, and new players can read the extras on layer 3

Worst case, current players are trash, and you have to buy a new player."

- Wrong. Triple layer was in the specs of the very first HD DVD drives, in fact.

Are you starting to 'twig' yet, idiot?

You're also desperately ignoring the fact that the 51gb disc has been approved by the DVD Forum.

Therefore it must have reached their requirements for backwards compatibility.

"Don't let people fool you that a simply firmware update will allow the pickup to focus on the 3rd layer, it's simply not possible."

- It is when the HD DVD hardware has been capable of reading Triple Layers since day 1.

http://www.cloetens.be/custom/home/hd_dvd.pdf

"Kinda makes the Profile 1.1 BD problems really insignificant!!"

- No it doesn't.
Nice try but you're just talking your laughably ignorant Blu-ray shill cr@p (again).

This is nothing like the same, gen 1 HD DVD owners do not stand to lose out on anything - unlike 'profile 1.0' Blu-ray owners who will be certain to miss out on various supposedly 'advanced' movie disc features and extras.....and then there are all of them that fail to comply with 'profile 2.0' who will miss out on internet connectivity and the additional features that that is supposed to be bringing.

What was the point of this pathetic post of yours Steve......a laughable bit of 'rearguard action'!?

Do you honestly think you're convincing anyone with your lame and desperately ignorant trolling?

BTW have to laugh at how you've abandoned trying to quibble over the Chionese CH-DVD issue.
Maybe you want to try and send me off on a chase for even more links to prove you were wrong & didn't know what you were talking about?
LMAO

Actualy if anything it makes you look more insignificant since you don't know what you are talking about again.

Have you got anything other than a NEC pdf? All that really says is that NEC players support 3 layers not all HD players in general

And what about all existing BD players when BD-J is rolled out? Guess what, none of them will be able to use the extra features.

There is no guarantee that the PS3 will be able to play them either, even with a firmware update.

I do see your point hehe
As for those yields is there any reliable source yet about that?
If that was true the cost of blu-ray discs selling currently must be at a terrible loss to stay around the HDDVD price. I cant see that being so.

"Have you got anything other than a NEC pdf?"

- You do know that the HR1100A was the very first HD DVD gen 1 drive, right?

.....or do you think that they shelved the capacity as they moved from gen 1 to gen 2 to gen 3 (as they developed the 51gb TL disc?).

Only the word from 'insiders' for the yields I'm afraid, whether you believe it or not is up to you......however the removal of the disc subsidy was one of the reasons Viacom/Paramount gave for dumping Blu-ray, so I'd say there is more reason for believing it than not.

(unless you want to go with the Bl;u-ray fanboys very own manufactured ridiculous rumour about how a major Hollywood giant could be 'bought' for a piffling - to them, they can take that in 1 week on a half decent release - $150 million.)

Best case, movies are laid out, so main movie is on layer 1 and 2, and new players can read the extras on layer 3

Worst case, current players are trash, and you have to buy a new player.

ROFLMAO!

Weren't you the guy whining in the last thread about the fact that BD Profile 1.1 would "merely" not allow certain extras to be used? ...and how that wasn't an issue?


Kinda makes the Profile 1.1 BD problems really insignificant!!

Kinda makes your entire argument in that last article totally hypocritical, does it not?

Yay you! You go, girl!

Actually no I didnt know it was the very first HDDVD gen 1 drive :)
But it still really only tells me that NEC have supported 3 layers from the start. All i want is confirmation that other players such as the toshiba ones also support it. Reading a NEC pdf isnt going to tell me that

"But it still really only tells me that NEC have supported 3 layers from the start."

- No, it does more than that, it tells you that Toshiba & NEC were developing triple layer right from the very start of HD DVD.

We also know that Toshiba carried on developing triple layer from that 45gb TL disc all the way through from the very beginning of HD DVD right up to the present and this 51gb TL disc.

Are you seriously suggesting that as they developed, manufactured and sold gen 1, 2 & 3 players they ignored the fact that gen 1 was designed from the start to play TL and that they were continuing to develop TL
(especially as news of the 51gb disc broke into the public news domain in jan 2007 a mere 2 or 3 months after the release of the gen 2 HD A")?

Wriggle on this point all you like but that doesn't make any sense at all and is IMO simply not a credible position to take.

I'd wait the 30 days we were told to, once the 1st movie is announced it'll be obvious & part of the press release that it either will or will not work with gen 1 or 2.

My money would be that it will
(and ditto the new 17gb & 34gb discs that this development also entails).

"If i overturn Blu-ray i will get 52GB which you cant do with 51GB 3 layer prototype."

What? Are you suggesting they've secretly added a 2 GB layer on top of the disc?

You are acting truly, unconditionally, shockingly retarded.

With all of the manufacturing difficulties they've had, Blu-ray discs might as well be prototypes still.

Video CDs and DVDs cannot be overburned, due to the rigid specifications of video discs. Typical data files are a different matter, but still... what makes you think the same does not apply to Blu-ray discs?

I don't suppose you could be bothered to list even one example of being able to overburn BD-R/RE discs? I suppose not, since you have yet to refute anything else.

Even if you could, what the balls makes you think that it would yield a gain of 2 GB? They're having enough trouble getting the yields up on disc production as it is. Even if there were drives available or announced that were capable of it, I'm sure it would be several months before the disc could handle it. But at the astronomical price they're expecting for the media, why would you risk playback compatibility issues by doing so?

Poor little Smurf.

It's quickly coming to the point where all Blu-ray offers is severely more expensive hardware... and all Sony will have is the PS3.

Hey loser (Dave),

I just got back from CEDIA in Denver, HD-DVD has a display specifically set up to show you how the first gen players supoord all of the HDi features on all movies, including the most recent ones.

Of course when BD-J comes out, all of the players purchased previously will not work with those features. What a shame.

The sony booth was pathetic, when I asked them when Transformers was coming out on Blu-Ray, they ganged up on me and tried to make me feel stupid, but what they didnt know was I was ****ing with them the whole time.

Now I see why you are the way you are, the whole Sony booth was a bunch of Dave clones. The HD-DVD trailer that is open to the public never mentioned Blu-Ray once during thier whole presentation, yet the BD f**s couldnt stop talking about HD-DVD.

I have Blu-Ray demos from the dts-HD, Dolby DigitalHD, and the THX booth which I could let you have for a thousand dollars (US).

Sony was in desperation mode at the show with thier "HDNA" booth.

You may find something interesting I saw at the Digital Projection demo room, they were running a demo of POTC: At Worlds End with a Live Free or Die Hard segment that was being choreographed for use with D-Box. The player was stashed at the back of the room being run from a Crestron touch panel with a pre-programmed macro.

What was interesting is they went out of thier way to hide the player so no one could see it, yet it was a Toshiba XA2 running 1080p. You could see the native resolution tag for the OSD when the demo ended. Now, is it my imagination or does Disney and Fox support BD exclusively?

Now, we all know you are going to call BS and say I wasnt there and blah blah blah, so let's hear it.

Interesting that projection demo room... will see what happens if its true i guess
I tend to agree how sony talks about its competition instead of focusing on its own products. Its getting quite old and sad how they talk down everything :| (yep im well aware that others do also... but comon noone as much as sony)

Another useless and pathethic dirty marketing tactic of the Microsoft/Toshiba/DVD-Forum guys to force HD-DVD on customers, up to the point to allow China to spread their AVS ripoff of MPEG codecs officially. What a shame, really !

And anyway, the main association of chinese manufacturers recently joined the Blu-Ray association.. so...

->
http://www.infoworld.com...lu-ray-Disc-camp_1.html

Acer, China Huala Group join Blu-ray Disc camp
At the IFA consumer electronics show in Berlin, the Blu-ray Disc Association touted an increase in hardware partners as evidence that Blu-ray acceptance is growing

Jeeezusss.

Even for a shill that was pathetic.

You can tell even some of you lot know it's all on the slide now.

Here we go again! Handing everything over to the Chinese Communists on a silver platter to further dilute the already highly diluted industries of the Western World thanks, in the US at least to the Crapta trade agreements of the Clinton & two Bush administrations, to the greed of the western world's corporatists. The Red Chinese don't need a huge Blue Water navy or an army as large at the population of Western Europe. All they need are money-hungry greedy Westerners eager to snap up every Euro, Pound and US dollar by unloading China's lousy made and often contaminated products on the unsuspecting world market.

News just in......

The difference between a CH DVD player and a HD DVD player is firmware.....and a little logo on the case.

The hardware is the same.

Link?

"Link?"

The difference between a CH DVD player and a HD DVD player was firmware.
Hardware is the same

http://stor-age.zdnet.com.cn/stor-age/2007/0907/495410.shtml

"The Forum has signed a Memorandum of Understanding with China's Optical Memory National Engineering Research Centre (OMNERC) regarding licensing of the HD DVD-ROM China (formerly HD DVD-ROM China-only) format, specification for which was approved earlier this year.
The only difference between the latter and the standard HD DVD format is the modulation scheme: the optical pickup in HD DVD China player will be able to play standard HD DVD discs, although Chinese discs will not be playable in standard HD DVD drives."
http://www.screendigest....ates/vi-060907-ec3/show

Ha ha ha ha

Now what Steve?

How are you shills going to spin this one away?

Where'd Steve go?

Hello Steve, Ray, Dave....whatever you're calling yourselves these days at the office.....where are you?

The Blu-ray.com Smurfs apparently ran out of responses in light of everything that has transpired recently, therefore rendering him speechless. He has no propaganda to spread like a bad case of herpes... for a little while, at least.

The news is that the new Chinese playwers are 'SoC' (solution on chip.....instead of being like a mini-'PC-in-a-box' like the early ones were) and based on the new Toshiba HD A3 designs (and not on the gen 2 HD A2 designs as might have been expected).

These will be very decent SD DVD upscaling 'regular DVD' players and very decent HD DVD players.

The Sony/PS3/Blu-ray idiot fanclub trying to slam this as 'cheap rubbish' should just lift the lid on their Sony/PS3/Blu-ray kit and check out the almost total array of cheap chinese components inside.

All I want is a reasonable cheap Player with reasonable quality above and beyond normal DVD. It HD DVD is better quality than DVD and cheaper than BR DVD then I'll go with HD DVD. It's impossible not to think about the Beta/VHS war and those that got stung by it. The mass market wants cheap and reasonable quality NOT expensive and ultra high quality. I won't be buying into this new war until a winner emerges or all players are multi format.

All I watch on a DVD is the film, not the extras or alternative endings or commentaries. Just the film. I, like many, still have a tube TV of under 36".

I will get a flat screen TV when they are £250 for the same size as what I've got. I'll get a new generation DVD player when I can afford a screen worth watching it on.

As for Sony, their biggest problem is greed. Their licensed products tend to be niche market items due to expense and lack of penetration. Their mini disc was more expensive than CDs, their memory sticks were more expensive than SD cards, Beta max was more expensive than VHS. The expense wasn't just to the consumer, it cost way too much for the other manufacturers to license the technology. Their big success was the walkman, and that was because you could buy lots of other makes at cheaper prices. I've never known anyone who had an actual Sony made walkman. Mine was a cheap store make.

Right so basically China develops and produces something inferior, floods the market with it and we buy it because it's cheap - who gets shafted but us.

"so basically China develops and produces something inferior"

- Says who?

The whole point about 'reference design' is that they licence & take a good quality design & produce it more cheaply.
Their players are actually based on the latest Toshiba HD A3 gen 3 players.

They haven't actually developed anything (which is part of how come their players will be so cheap) and the gen 3 design is excellent.

"floods the market with it and we buy it because it's cheap - who gets shafted but us."

- Yeah, like they 'forced' you to.

Tell you what, you stick to your 'at-least-twice-the-price' Chinese made Blu-ray losing format cr@p if it makes you feel any better, eh?
(lift the lid on your PS3/Blu-ray player and see how many 'made in China/assembled in China stickers you can see)

LMAO.

Apparently, Chines manufacturers have just started making $50 bicycles, so now HD DVD is screwed.

Seriously, more desperate PR from Toshibas ailing HD DVD format. This will have very little impact on the price of HD DVD in stores, as the current $250 price tag is massively subsidised by Toshiba by over $200 a unit (excluding the 5 free movies the give away). If it has any impact at all, it means Toshiba will lose less per unit.

After all Positive HD-DVD news is just desperate measures from Toshiba and Positive Blu-ray news is the norm?
What’s wrong with Toshiba loosing less per unit? That’s most likely the idea and that’s positive. Companies always release things at a loss to get a foot in the market. It’s either that or have a unattractive price.

would you like some cheese with your whine

Nothing wrong with this news reducing Toshibas losses per unit, but to imply it will have a direct impact on retail price is very misleading.

Well i do agree.. the key word is 'could' from that article.
Nothing is nothing until it happens

Notice how any proprietary format/technology that Sony owns or has a hand in never succeeds? You would think they'd learn their lesson after decades of failure, but no, they just keep cranking them out. Betamax, MiniDisc/ATRAC, SDDS, MMCD, HiFD, UMD, Memory Stick, Super Audio CD, and now Blu-ray.

The last time Sony introduced a format that became the de facto industry standard was the 3.5" diskette -- in 1983.

CD? DVD?

CD was Sony + Philips weren't it? ;)

IIRC, DVD was largely Toshiba.

Aww, you ruined his moment of spin that the CD was all Sony's creation. Convenient to waylay the huge part Phillips played, in such times. :)

I think the key here is proprietary format!

Yep, Philips and Sony changed one thing when they became part of the group working on DVD discs. And it was to use/implement EFM+ (invented by someone at Philips).

"Notice how any proprietary format/technology that Sony owns or has a hand in never succeeds?"

the average IQ here seems to be about 50 it seems.

Mostly Philips thankfully.....Sony were the very junior partner.

(otherwise they'd undoubtedly have screwed that one up too)

Nice try, but how about the other 9 failed Sony formats I listed? Any comments? I didn't think so.

I said proprietary format.

"the average IQ here seems to be about 50 it seems."

Is that your IQ?

Everything is proprietary when it starts out, it's only until everyone else adopts is, does it become anything else.

Obviously an IQ estimate of 50 is WAY to high for the window lickers than frequent here.

Kind of like Sony memory sticks, oh yeah they still are.

Oh, don't forget UMD. Were there any other players capable of reading UMD besides the PSP?

What about MiniDisc?

"Everything is proprietary when it starts out..."

BS. There are products released all the time that start out as an industry standard, accepted by all (or at the very least, a vast majority). DVD was one such product. In fact, had Sony and Philips not interfered, the format probably would have been better off. Toshiba's original specification touted 5 GB of storage. Sony's and Philip's only contribution brought it down to 4.7 GB.

If it's not industry standard, it's proprietary. Everything starts out with the potential for being an industry standard. It's only when certain companies or individuals decided to keep it for themselves and use it for their own benefit does it become something else.

Blu-ray, for instance... it had great potential for becoming an industry standard. It's slowly becoming proprietary, through no fault of anyone except Sony.

"The last time Sony introduced a format that became the de facto industry standard was the 3.5" diskette -- in 1983."

And then it only became standard because Apple used it in the mac which meant it was "cool" so everyone else copied (and made it better thanks to IBM releasing the 3.5")

but even the 3.5" standard by sony sucked

1) it didn't define how to write to the media so Apple used GCR and IBM used MFM

2) they originally were single sided then swaped to double sided

3) they changed the way the disks were coated something like 3 times to increase their capacity, the most recent only appeared in a select number of systems (the 2.8mb floppy)

so all Sony really invented was the casing, which was pretty much the same as Mitsumi's 2.8" or 3" (depending how you look at it) disk system

have fun with that Sony fanboys

Great news, the war will be over and sony has got what it deserves, AGAIN !...hahahahaha

First we have Venturer officially launching its sub $200 HD DVD player.

Now new HD DVD players were displayed during the launch of China-HD DVD (CH-DVD).

Please note that these players are not CH-DVD players but HD DVD players meant for US and European markets.

The four CHINA CE manufacturers is:

BBK (OPPO!)
Haier
TCL
Tsinghua Tongfang

The detailed report:

http://stor-age.zdnet.com.cn/stor-ag...7/495410.shtml

Game over Blu-ray, now f*ck off to be what you always were heading to be, a proprietary dead-end, a DRM-crammed, unfinished spec nightmare on a kids game console.

@Hocuspokus Dude are you dense? Stupid? Ignorant? or all three! Didn't you notice who is on that list of companies on the AVS group? Duh...NO! Do you even know how this equipment works? They are talking about a totally different format and a CH-DVD player will not play HD-DVDs, fool.

They're thinking it reduces cost for them only because of the similarity of manufacturing. How many Chinese can we expect to afford these players let alone the HDTV to use them on? This is just Sony and IBM and company preparing for the future. The codec will play on BluRay with adjustments just as on HD-DVD! Believe me! ....or you would NOT have these companies on the AVS board.

These machines and the format are meant for China ONLY. The blue diode is the same blue diode in all three machines. The companies producing them for BluRay have cut the cost of chip production recently to less than $8 each.

Because even if somebody doesn't use the PS3 BD Player, they are still subsidizing player's and chip cost. Plus 'FATHEAD', just because every single PS3 game that's sold, reduces BD disc production cost no matter if it's a movie or a GAME!

So if you put all the BD discs, both Games and Movies being sold together, it's all reducing the cost of all BD discs at a faster rate than movies alone on HD-DVD. Costs for BluRay Movies and Game Discs is plummeting through the floor. The more you make yourself, the cheaper they are.

It's been reported that by year's end, it will be cheaper to make a BluRay Scratch Resistant Coated Disc than an HD-DVD movie disc. Then on Blue Diode chip side, they are already cheaper in costs than the ones going into HD-DVD players. Plus the most expensive part of the BluRay Players is the Lens Assembly. Well that is coming down too, with such high numbers! So that by years end, it's predicted that the cost of production will be on par between both of BD and HD-DVD.

HD-DVD will no longer have the price edge and BluRay with stand alone players and PS3 players will rule, because for every one of these machines sold you reduce the cost faster than HD-DVD players alone.

With every Game and Movie sold, you reduce the cost of production of the BD Discs with the far greater numbers sold!

So what does the HD-DVD side do? PANIC and blow a wad of $dough$ at a couple film makers in a last ditch effort to buy allegiance in a timed exclusivety. What do you think Sony is going to do? Stop making BluRay PS3's? NOT!

BluRay is not going anywhere, but into your future whether you like it or not. The only format that could die is HD-DVD. Then through this CH-DVD Group that consist of China and those very interesting and notable members: the China branch of ATI, IBM, Intel, LG, Matsus***a, NEC, Nokia, Philips, STMicroelectronics, TI, Tektronix, and of all the amazing ironies of this story... Sony... Who do you think is going to control all the high definition formats? Fool! ;)

You can run your mouth all you want by writing page long rants on why HD-DVD "sucks" and Blu-ray "rocks", but it won't change the facts. I mean look, I know you're trying very hard to convince everyone that Blu-ray is doing great and HD-DVD is dead in the water, but you're just wasting your energy.

It makes me wonder if you even read the article, or just saw the positive HD-DVD headline and decided to spew forth your pro Blu-ray nonsense. Sure, CH-DVD player may not play HD-DVDs, but it will lower the production cost of HD-DVD players, because they're essentially the same hardware. You would have known this if you actually read the article. I mean, you say the blue laser diodes are getting dirt cheap and therefore so will Blu-ray players. Then how do you explain the fact that Sony just launched two ultra expensive Blu-ray players? One was $700 and the other $1200 if I remember right. I mean, that's pretty hilarious right there.

You Sony cheerleaders will eventually have to face the facts: It's game over for Blu-ray, Sony, and the PS3. Don't worry though, Sony will have a new proprietary format/technology lined up in a year or two. They never learn. I'm sure they'll spend the next 50 years releasing new ones, even if every single one fails.. and they will.

You insane sony haters are so much fun. You do not care about hd dvd but you lick their arse just because you hate some company.

Actually he is right so stop with your BS and FUD.
hd dud format is dead no matter how you try to spin things.

It is all about cost and Sony can and will lose that race. Wait and see.

some cheese for your whine

Sony may lose, if you like it be it that way.

But Panasonic, Fox, Disney and the other will win. Admit it, Blu-ray should win.

What if Sony start releasing HD DVD? I know what. It will be: "DVDs are enough HD sucks."

"They are talking about a totally different format and a CH-DVD player will not play HD-DVDs, fool."

- No they weren't actually 'fool'.

They specifically mentioned that 2 of the designs are CH-DVD and 2 are (right now) HD DVD and therefore intended for US, European and the usual HD DVD markets, 'fool'.

"They're thinking it reduces cost for them only because of the similarity of manufacturing."

- Well duuuuuh!

The machines are to all serious intents and purposes identical.

One can reasonable expect the 2 CH-DVD players mentioned to have HD DVD variants.
Fool.

"How many Chinese can we expect to afford these players let alone the HDTV to use them on?"

- You tell me.

.....and while you're at it maybe you'd like to tell me out of the 1 billion+ people there how many are buying BMWs, Mercedes etc etc.

Cos they are and in decent numbers even if it is a small % of the total population.
Fool.

"This is just Sony and IBM and company preparing for the future. The codec will play on BluRay with adjustments just as on HD-DVD! Believe me! ....or you would NOT have these companies on the AVS board."

- You've totally lost touch with reality now and your confused day-dreaming is laughable.
Fool.

"These machines and the format are meant for China ONLY."

- Well clearly the 2 HD DVD are not, only the 2 CH-DVD are (for now without any adjustments).
Fool.

"The blue diode is the same blue diode in all three machines."

- The blue diodes in all high def players are pretty much identical, actually.
Fool

"The companies producing them for BluRay have cut the cost of chip production recently to less than $8 each."

- So F*cking what?
Fool.

"Because even if somebody doesn't use the PS3 BD Player, they are still subsidizing player's and chip cost."

- Er, you seem to be under the illusion that every blu-ray diode is related only to the PS3.
The same could be said about the blue diode in the Toshiba HD DVD players.
Fool.

"Plus 'FATHEAD', just because every single PS3 game that's sold, reduces BD disc production cost no matter if it's a movie or a GAME!"

- Yeah, single layer 25gb Blu-ray discs.
Fathead fool.

"So if you put all the BD discs, both Games and Movies being sold together, it's all reducing the cost of all BD discs at a faster rate than movies alone on HD-DVD."

- Says you.
Of course any increased demand might just be having another effect with the low yields they are getting from Blu-ray disc production.
Not that any PS3 games have sold spectacularly well anyways and Blu-ray movie sales are hardly great either (with approx 2.2 million sold to date).
Fathead fool.

" Costs for BluRay Movies and Game Discs is plummeting through the floor. The more you make yourself, the cheaper they are."

- They aren't making that many actually.
Fathead fool.

"It's been reported that by year's end, it will be cheaper to make a BluRay Scratch Resistant Coated Disc than an HD-DVD movie disc."

- Yeah, of course.
Reported on blu-ray.com.

Naturally you just ignore the fact that Toshiba have seen sense are are now applying this great coating to all their discs, hmmmm?
Fathead fool.

" Then on Blue Diode chip side, they are already cheaper in costs than the ones going into HD-DVD players."

- Look idiot, if you don't know what you're talking about don;t try and argue with people who do know more OK?
The blue laser diodes are the same in fact (although some have different abilities like the 3 wavelength CD, DVD & HD DVD/Blu-ray reading diodes).

Fathead fool.

"Plus the most expensive part of the BluRay Players is the Lens Assembly."

- Actually if you knew anything like as much as you pretend to you'd know that the entire drive for a Blu-ray player is much more expensive than the regular DVD or HD DVD drive.

It requires more parts and those parts have to be of a high spec compared.
It will always be more expensive because of this and they simply aren't making enough of them for the economies of scale to make the difference......not with the HD DVD drive being so similar to a regular DVD drive and also being produced in the multi-millions.

"Well that is coming down too, with such high numbers! So that by years end, it's predicted that the cost of production will be on par between both of BD and HD-DVD."

- Yeah right, jam tomorrow.
The constant BD claim.
As 'predicted'/'reported' by any number of Sony fanzine sites and all complete BS for the 'hard of thinking'.
Fathead fool.

"HD-DVD will no longer have the price edge and BluRay with stand alone players and PS3 players will rule, because for every one of these machines sold you reduce the cost faster than HD-DVD players alone."

- You really do pray for this idiotic fantasy to come true every night right?

Fathead fool.

"So what does the HD-DVD side do? PANIC and blow a wad of $dough$ at a couple film makers in a last ditch effort to buy allegiance in a timed exclusivety.

- LMAO.

Yeah of course "last ditch" no means HD DVD has the most actual available content, the most exclusive content and the most potential content.
They're clearly on their last legs.

Hilarious.

Oh......and now prove anyone was 'bought off'
(without referring to anything put out by that idiot shill Bill Hunt).

Fathead fool.

" What do you think Sony is going to do? Stop making BluRay PS3's? NOT!"

- They're going to do what they always do.

Deny reality and sucker their fanclub for as long as possible before quietly admitting defeat and coming on-board (possible as the last) to join HD DVD.

Blu-ray is headed to be a proprietary format. Enjoy it while it lasts.
Fathead fool.

"BluRay is not going anywhere, but into your future whether you like it or not."

- I have not said BD is going to die straight away.

It will be a long slow death (just like UMD), it'll be a dead-end format hanging around for some time.
Fathead fool.

" The only format that could die is HD-DVD."

- You should be on the stage with gags like that.
Fathead fool.

"Then through this CH-DVD Group that consist of China and those very interesting and notable members: the China branch of ATI, IBM, Intel, LG, Matsus***a, NEC, Nokia, Philips, STMicroelectronics, TI, Tektronix, and of all the amazing ironies of this story... Sony... Who do you think is going to control all the high definition formats? Fool! ;)"

- Well truly you have excelled yourself with your ill-informed stupidity here, fathead fool.

You'll also find the members of the Blu-ray association on the DVD Forum (which is the governing body for HD DVD).

But you obviously reckon that means they control HD DVD.

You're clearly a moron with the most shallow & superficial idea of how these work.

Pitiable in fact.

The truth is that CH-DVD is almost identical to HD DVD physically.
The Chinese market of over 1 billion people is a cornerstone of HD DVD support, effectively.

But you carry on & enjoy your laughable infantile little day-dreams of your beloved Sony ruling your world now, ok?
Fathead fool.

you make it sound like HD-DVD has no DRM. LMAO. AACS is on both formats.

"You insane sony haters are so much fun"

- LMAO.
(go on, admit it; I bet you typed that with gritted teeth and not a smile on your face)

I just laugh at the way you ignore the points raised (that you're supposed to be responding to) to go on a juvenile whinge as you cry your eyes out over your beloved.

Well a thread showing this kind of really bad news for Blu-ray along with the wholly predictable turn-out of a couple of the more ill-informed & unhinged idiot Blu-ray fanclub kiddies insisting on making a total t*t of themselves wouldn't be complete with Dave showing up talking complete bollocks.

Sorry Dave but I don't know anyone who feels so strongly about a f*cking CE company/corporation to genuinely feel 'love' or 'hate'......except for a loopy dingbat like you and your fellow members of the Sony/PS3/Blu-ray fanclub.

But according to you HD DVD
(wow HD DuD, how clever.....where did you first see & then start copying that amazing example of someone else's 'wit'?)
is dead -
even tho it has the lowest prices (by far) a complete range of players at various price-points and spec and the most available content, the most exclusive content and the most potential content .

.......as you then go on to admit Blu-ray may well lose.

You guys really are in need of help.

The 'entry level Blu-ray player is approx the same price as the fairly 'high-end' Toshiba HD XA 2($569 on Amazon USA or $499 @ Best Buy/Magnolia right now).

They've lost, they can't compete on price or content.

Enjoy your PS3 proprietary format. :P

"Panasonic, Fox, Disney and the other will win."

- Yes, the moment they join the HD DVD side (probably after a suitably brief period of being 'format neutral')

"Admit it, Blu-ray should win."

- Should......oh my, is that what you're now reduced to Dave?

Hilarious.

No they shouldn't.

"What if Sony start releasing HD DVD?"

- Then we could all start to put the whole sorry mess behind us and be glad that Sony did not gain such a strangle-hold on the movie and video business
(cos it's not just about Sony as a CE company.......which is why your countinual & absurd notions of Universal helping Sony along by going 'format neutral' were always completely detached from reality)

" I know what. It will be: "DVDs are enough HD sucks.""

- Oh get a grip Dave, dry your eyes and stop pouting.

We would all be perfectly fine about Sony going HD DVD.......'we' just would be very wary of their usual trick of under-spec & over-priced goods.

Your guys lost.

That's it, get over it.
(until the next time.....and knowing Sony there will undoubedly be a next time sometime)

......and they fully deserved to, given the intent behind BD, too.

"you make it sound like HD-DVD has no DRM. LMAO. AACS is on both formats. "

- Stop trying to make out as if both format are much the same.

That's just BS - and you know it
(which just begs the question why are you trying to make out otherwise?.

AACS has been well and truly broken wide open on HD DVD (and Blu-ray for that matter) and it is therefore nothing like the same as BD+ (or the watermarking) used on Blu-ray.

We aren't saying that. What we are saying is Sony's DRM is a bigger pain in the ass. It is not going to stop the crackers and it does nothing but cause more hurdles for the people that paid for it.

"Sony may lose, if you like it be it that way."

OK

"But Panasonic, Fox, Disney and the other will win. Admit it, Blu-ray should win."

No it shouldn't. If Blu-Ray wins Sony will infest it with so much DRM you wont be able to see straight. The only thing keeping them "somewhat" in check right now is HD-DVD.

What if Sony start releasing HD DVD? I know what. It will be: "DVDs are enough HD sucks."

No it will be the same problem that I stated above.

HD DUD is something he learned from the kings of trolls over at bluray.com.

I noticed over there that they are "recruiting an army" to come here and spew their vial lies about blo-ray. God forbid you even hint of not being a member of the blo-ray cult or banished you will be. The lies run so deep there since if you challange you are bannished. Listenig to what they post there they must be a bunch of 12 year olds, at least tehy sure sound like that.

Agreed I do not like the idea of a studio making the device to play the content back on. I can not agree more about the inevitable DRM infestation if blu-ray does win and the customer will lose. That is the bottom line. People have reasons to not turst Sony especially the people that understand the patents that they hold for content protection, scary stuff.

"What we are saying is Sony's DRM is a bigger pain in the ass."

LOL. that is laughable. You think content producers are going to produce HD-DVD discs _without_ AACS? If you do, i have some prime ocean front property in Wyoming i would like to sell you.

I think you need to read his comment again.

Sony has a spec that will lock it to that player and will allow the disc to play only for so long, and then after a few years you will be asked to pay more to watch it again, it hasn't been implemented yet but its coming.

He never said hd-dvd wasn't using aacs he is talking about the new spec sony created for blu-ray.

Do they not teach you how to read where you are at or something pit? Please show me where I said anything about HD-DVD not using AACS...

Wow...I think might be a new record for number of burns in 1 post lol!!!

He fails to understand the possible future protections that will scr*w the consumer. Amazing that people can be so stupid and blind.

That has been my point since day one. I guess this poves that they work for Sony since they avoid any reference to this fact.

Very good, some serious smack there.

If Kelso from "That 70's Show" were here, he'd be saying "BURRRRRRN!" so many times the cops would show up thinking he was a serial arsonist, and arrest him.

I guess China will 'decide' most things from here on out.

China is the biggest long-term threat to the world. 1.4 billion people are always right.

yep, and the worst part is the greedy, corrupt politicans in the USA are the ones that did the USA in.

Wonder what it is going to be like when Chinese aircraft carrier battle groups are conducting exercises off the west coast. And the former USA navy air craft carriers are rusting in port as the government can no longer afford them.

Unlike Russia, the USA has no huge untapped wealth in natural resources to bail it out.

We have plenty of resources but the liberals block removing it. Plus according to you and others we exploit the world so we have nothing to worry about. You are totally clueless.

Hey rocket scientest did you ever think about the fact that navel fleet is nuclear. We have lots of that. So I take it you are a Pinko Commie!

You make dumber and dumber statements every day, not to mention way off topic. Very normal for you however to do something like that.

Your intelligence never ceases to amaze. Did you attend the public school system in the USA?

did you go to any school ?

"Wonder what it is going to be like when Chinese aircraft carrier battle groups are conducting exercises off the west coast."

- LMAO

Blu-ray loses to HD DVD and suddenly US national security is threatened.

Hilarious.

What the hell are you talking about? We don't need foreign or domestic oil to power our Navy. Have you ever heard of making power by a process of spliting the atom? Yes that is actually done and it powers lots of ships in our fleet. Maybe you are the one that does not understand. You also may not understand the amount of untapped oil that we have but the libs won't let us drill it. We also have more coal then most. We could always go back to that also. Your ignorance is golden. My post made sense you were so far off topic and of course far from accurate.

As far as education I am sure I have much more than you. I am guessing by some of your posts you live in some screwed up socialist country that is floundering in tax and a failing health care system.

Keep posting your views since they are so stupid they are actually funny.

Did you even read the post from "elftyrrell" i replied to or are you just frantically typing in your next troll response?

what are you talking about? Oil? huh?

Yeah, those F18s fly on nuclear power. How many Cruisers and Destroyers are nuclear powered? How many supply ships are nuclear powered? ...crickets chirping...

Exactly how much oil do we have? Educate everyone.

"I am guessing by some of your posts you live in some screwed up socialist country that is floundering in tax and a failing health care system."

Yes, i live in the USA. Our government is so far in debt there is almost no way out, and our healthcare system is the worst in the "developed" world.

You are the one that brought it up.

I see know you are just an America hating American. If you are so unhappy here you are welcome to leave.

Have you seen our new fleet, apparently not. Where do you come up with the crap you spew and what prompted that not even close to topic post is what I would like to know. Maybe you should move out of the trailor park and find something to do with your time then post nonsense.

lol, you have the IQ of an ant. Where did i bring anything up about oil?

I guess when you just frantically type out your troll posts you loose your feeble train of thought.

Where did i bring anything up about oil?

Pitdingo
Unlike Russia, the USA has no huge untapped wealth in natural resources to bail it out.

Pretty much right there. Can you see the connection, or do I need to explain it to you?

Anything else I can help you with?

I guess you can not even read your own writing. Idiot!

"elftyrrell" made a silly comment about Chinese 'threats'.....

......but you were the one doing the ludicrous imagining & 'magic-ing into existance' a deep water navy with carriers for China.

Get a grip.

So in other words ..... China will make pirate CH-dvd's using china's coding and sell a cheep a$$ china dvd player to walmart to play them with

I just hope they don't come coated with lead paint...

So that's what Chinese Marxism was all about. The eradiction of Japanese Blue Ray. Count me in.

Bye bye Blu-Ray.

If the Chinese are going to start making HD-DVD players... Its over for Blu-Ray. I see the $99.99 HD DVD player by 2009 Christmas.

If they can get production moving fast enough on CH DVD, you should see sub-$100 HD DVD players by Christmas 2008.

Any advance on Christmas 2007.... anyone?

The war will be long over by then, HD DVD will be long forgoten...

In other news, Asus goes Blu...

http://www.reghardware.c...09/06/asus_goes_blu-ray/

It comes down to price, if hd-dvd hits the $200 mark, the average user will go with the cheaper format.

Look at it this way since the average user buys Windows PCS which are considerably cheaper and does the same thing. They continue to dominate the market.

Only in your dreams. Who cares if all these companies go blu-ray if nothing is being made. I don't see any long list of makes in the store.

Once the price drops for HD blo-ray will really be in trouble.

Asus is already HD DVD (red) you ill-informed idiot.

They've just gone dual format (to clean up whatever sales they can).

From June 2006; Asus unwraps HD DVD notebook duo W2J
(they also produce the W2p, G1S, G2S and V1S all with HD DVD drives - and some with BD drive too)

http://www.reghardware.c...9/asus_hd_dvd_notebooks/

hate to say it, but it ain't looking good for Blu-Ray now. This is the end of Blu-Ray as a viable format which is a shame as it is superior to HD-DVD.

Blu-Ray, say hi to BetaMax, Mini-Disc, and UMD.

Acer then also joined the HD DVD camp as well.

http://www.tgdaily.com/content/view/33725/118/

Los Angeles (CA) – Acer has become the first major global PC manufacturer to become a member of both the North American HD DVD Promotional Group as well as the Blu-ray Disc Association (BDA).

At this time there is NO proof one is better then the other.

But to note on video games where the exact same game is released (which I assume sony uses blu-ray for their games) the blacks are washed out, you can see it on the transformers game clear as day, granted not an exceptional title but still.

Sound has also been an issue on several blu-ray titles.

If Blu-Ray was superior, then the DVD Forum would have chose it as the successor to DVD.

"At this time there is NO proof one is better then the other. "

This is one of the most ignorant comments I've ever read regarding the HD-DVD vs. Blu-Ray arguments all over the net. Have you actually read the specs on both formats or.. just basing that statement purely on "how it looks" on your TV?

It's obvious that BD has technically superior specs..and I hope they win the format war because of that. However, with Toshiba selling their players for dirt cheap, the average consumers won't bother to compare the specs and will simply buy the more affordable player. A shame..but thats economics.

...and in other-other news, 'the Professor' here doesn't reveal the whole truth.

Format-neutral, still:

http://www.pclaunches.co...r0205t_hd_dvd_drive.php

Hmm, did that show a price difference of almost $100? Yeah... "long forgotten". You're amusing, I'll give you that.

If there is no benefit for the higher specs what the hell is the point of paying extra to have them? HD-DVD looks every bit as good and sometimes better than Blu-Ray. It's like wiring somebodies computer with a gigabit ethernet when all they are going to use it for is the internet. It is going to be exactly the same except it cost more!

Stormprobe: The DVD-Forum is currently owned by Bill Gates, they are his puppets thru his "gifts"...

Blu-Ray is superior by definition simply because it's up to 50GB and allows for an almost twice higher overall muxed bitrate compared to HD-DVD.

siryak: HD-DVD looking as good or better than Blu-Ray is just marketing hype, it's a fact that it can't be the case if you are comparing same level players on the same displays/projectors.
Blu-Ray allows for almost twice as high bitrates than HD-DVD. More space = better quality, this can't be negated and whoever tries to do that is spreading lies.

And the studios have said that your point is vastly over stated, simply not an issue. When it comes to burners which I know you head towards what is the point? The drive is slow and media costs a small fortune. External hard drives will do a better job at backing up data. That by the way has also been stated before. So the 50 gig statement boils down to a big yawn.

And the reviews will disagree. Funny how the majority of blo-ray movies are on the smaller 25 gig disks then use very old compression.

"Blu-Ray is superior by definition simply because it's up to 50GB and allows for an almost twice higher overall muxed bitrate compared to HD-DVD."

- BS.....and now wholly wrong on every count.

The DVD Forum just approved the 51gb disc.

HD DVD now offers the largest disc size and the highest bit-rate (1.5 x the 30gb DL's 36mbps = 54mbps on the TL disc).

Ha ha ha ha Blu-ray loses.

Now it can just pi*s off to be the DRM-infested PS3 proprietary product it was always destined to be.

The really funny part to it all is that the 51gb TL disc in all likelihood wont be used by the movie industry - tho the new 34gb DL disc may prove popular as it'll allow a little more 'headroom' to cram in more of the best audio.

No, the really funny thing is that the 51gb disc will be used by people backing up ripped Blu-ray movies off of the HD sites on the net to play on the PCs & HD DVD stand-alones etc etc.
Oh the irony.

lol

Wrong. The FACT is you can not tell the difference. The FACT is that HD-DVD looks better than Blu-Ray on many occasions. Also even if this was the case considering HD-DVD is now the superior format in every way including space and bitrate none of this matters anymore.

ROFL!

"The DVD-Forum is currently owned by Bill Gates"

Seriously, hate MS but good god man at least hate them for something they are doing. MS has nothing to do with the dvd-forum, hd-dvd was created by Toshiba and NEC. MS had absolutely nothing to do with it.

They are just a supporter but it should be noted that Windows supports both formats.

Except their has been NO proof one format is better then the other. Also HD-DVD is now 51 GB so by your definition, HD-DVD is now the better format.

Well, when doing a side- by - side comparison there is no difference.

Maybe, you don't understand "at this time"

I'll explain: "At this time" means today every title that has come out for both systems. Quite a few titles looked better and sounded better on hd-dvd (go ahead and do a search theres plenty to sift through)

Ah Specs, ok? Sony has the better specs on their ps3 YET several games look better on the xbox360.

One that I already mentioned was Transformers. You can do a search and find the rest.

Until Blu-ray actually starts utilizing those discs, it truly is a moot point and once more in case you didn't read it earlier hd-dvd is now at 51 GB discs.

siryak: You are just spreading marketing hype, pure marketing lies. HD-DVD can't look better because it's bitrate limited, maximum overall muxed bitrate on HD-DVD is around 30Mbps, while Blu-Ray can go up to 50Mbps, almost twice as much and using the same codec for comparison you would always end up with a far higher quality due to lower compression.
The HD-DVD 3-layer 51GB discs are not standard, are not being used nor practically manufactured, it's just marketing hype, they will never use those discs which are very expensive to make. Blu-Ray has 50GB on 2-layer discs from the beginning and that's what really matters. HD-DVD with Microsoft/Toshiba and DVD-Forum blame Blu-Ray for a lack of final BD-J interactivity features that are really worthless to the general public and might only interest publishers to force customers into buying DRM encypted streams and material put on discs thru an Internet connection. But disc size is what really matters instead and what makes the difference.

Lets see the movie 300 on hd-dvd and blu-ray look identical but the hd-dvd has more stuff on it then the blu-ray version PLUS if you want to watch it in the car, on a pc, at a friends house it comes with the standard version as well.

What exactly is blu-ray using that extra space for?

Has Blu-Ray even put out a 50GB movie yet? Or are they all still just 25GB.

Wrong! The TL HD-DVD has already been approved thus giving HD-DVD the larger disc size AND a higher bitrate at 54Mbps. Your argument that was stupid in the first place is now totally and completely pointless now that HD-DVD is superior to Blo-Ray in every way. Any other ignorant comments for today? I need a good laugh.

The majority of available Blu-ray movies are 25gb single layer.

I have seen movies on,er, shall we say 'certain sites' up to the 40gb level.....but that is because they go in for that incredibly wasteful and extravagant uncompressed audio
(which the Blu-ray shills all pretend sounds so much better than Dolby HD & which almost no-one has audio equipment to use properly).

The 50gb disc was all about Sony sticking with the almost 20yr old MPEG2.
It was about avoiding paying Microsoft a royalty on VC-1 (which they are now coming around to doing, there is 1 Sony VC-1 movie on Blu-ray)

http://www.blu-raystats.com/index.php

siryak: The majority of new movies are on 50GB and 1080p H.264 AVC encoded.

Actually the majority of Blu-Ray movies are 50GB nowadays.
You don't have a clue of what you are talking about, really.
The VC-1 codec (aka WMV9) was wanted by Microsoft when it asked ISO to approve it as an international standard, Microsoft had to make its specifications public for approval.
WMV9/VC-1 are based on an hack of MPEG-4 ASP that Microsoft did. They claim to have achieved better results than H.264 but that's not true at all.
Blu-Ray movies are encoded using H.264 MPEG-4 AVC Part 10 codec which is the best one until H.265 gets finalized around 2010 at least...
A fee is needed to be paid for both H.264 and VC-1 to the ISO/MPEG Forum organizations actually. The main difference is that VC-1 was developed by Microsoft which expects to set the rules and the standards thru its success despite it's an inferior codec just like HD-DVD is an inferior, smaller optical media. H.264 MPEG-4 AVC was developed by many manufacturers thru the MPEG Forum and ISO/IEC organizations that developed previous MPEG standards (MPEG-1,MPEG-2,MPEG-4) and it's not owned by Sony or any other manufacturer in particular, it's the result of joint research and development to set a superior standard able to survive for many years just like MPEG-2 was developed for HDTV and it's still perfect for the job although it requires more space (well, H.265 is being developed to achieve better compression up to the point that it will need half the bitrate of H.264 to achieve the same quality).

terminalx: Yeah, sure.. then how comes that 300 has sold many more copies on Blu-Ray than on HD-DVD, uh ? What's your point exactly ?

Actually the first printed discs, older ones, were on single layer and used MPEG-2. Nowadays almost every new release is on 50GB dual layer MPEG-4 AVC 1080p.

Hmm that's a shame...Considering they don't look any better than the 30GB HD-DVD discs I guess my point has already been proven.

I will go ahead and post your response: It can't look as good because it has smaller size and lower bitrate blah blah blah FUD FUD FUD I love Sony blah blah.

It can and it does. Oh btw even if it did make a difference(which it doesn't) HD-DVD is now superior in both size and bitrate making your point mute. So basically HD-DVD now has Blo-Ray beat in price and quality.

Why is it that all Sony fanboys come up with ignorant responses that avoid the point? What do sales numbers have anything to do with how the movie looks? So I ask you...What's your point exactly?

My point? Apparently you cannot read... I'll make it easier for you.

THE HD-DVD VERSION HAS MORE CONTENT ON IT THEN BLU-RAY PLUS IT ALSO HAS A REGULAR DVD ON THE OTHER SIDE, GRANTED YOU MIGHT NOT LIKE THE REGULAR DVD BUT ITS A NICE ADDITION< FOR WHEN YOU GO ELSEWHERE WITH IT.

O AGAIN SO YOU DON'T AVOID THE POINT WHAT IS THE EXTRA SPACE BEING USED ON A BLU-RAY FOR?

With all that space they still fail to get better reviews that is sad. And don't bother quoting sales numbers since they have nothing to do with the quality of the picture.

We have all seen pictures of fan boys blo-ray collections and they buy everything that comes out even if it sucks. Sad, very sad. You see I buy only what I like.

Yeah, you should probably look at the blu-ray site as it doesn't agree with you.

SGD: Reviews get paid for. It's pretty rare to find reviewers being really fair.

Let me guess the only time reviews are fair when blu-ray is consider master and supreme over all right?

So EVERYONE is against Blu-Ray, its all a conspiracy.

Holy Christ you truly are a brainwashed drone, the only thing you continue to spout off is "blu-ray has a larger capacity so its impossible for it to be inferior."

Yet, time and time again people who remain format neutral state the hd-dvd version looks better in a lot of cases, so how can this be?

"Its a conspiracy, man they all were paid off by MS and and they got a 150 mil payout thats why those other studios moved over and and uh blu-ray is supported by all the best studios"

*adjusts tinfoil cap*

Hello, Mcfly? answer please?

Mcfly...

*laughs*

Watched all three of the "Back to the Future" movies over last week again. My son now has a new favorite movie (If he can ever decide which one he likes better)...

These threads are a great way to escape from time to time ?. Maybe you should take a step back and review all of this.

Some items to consider:

HD-DVD does not need the extra space that Blu-Ray offers, but then comes out with a similar capacity version? So size does matter (and don’t let any lady tell you any different), but also what you do with it counts more?

One question I have how does adding a third layer increase the data transfer speed?

Plus does adding the 3rd layer increase the manufacturing costs?

Also the writable HD discs are only single layer (for now at least) from my understanding. The price for these are artificially high to make it cost in-effective to use them to copy movies.

It’s great news for China to supposedly produce HD-DVD players for Wal-Mart, but then bad news for Blu-Ray to have manufacturing done in China?

This war has pro’s and cons, both formats have pros and cons. Who’s gonna win? Nobody knows just yet, there are too many factors to take into account.

My biggest concerns are:

1/ Con: Content - Studio's might rush to get more movies on the shelf in format X which might mean quality suffering (this is my BIGGEST Con concern i.e. why pay HD prices which would be as good if not better on SD at a lower price).

I guess the same might be said for Hardware.

2/ Con: You have to make a decision on one the other or why not both formats (that is if you are interested/can afford and even have a HD-TV etc...) or have to wait for one to win (which might be a loooooooong wait).

3/ Pro: This is forcing the prices down far quicker than any previous format (not good for the developers as it will take longer to re-coup their investment, but good for the punters maybe).

With regards to the price, someone spending several thousand dollars on a high end Display will probably think twice about matching this with a Cheap player. I personally won’t be going out to buy the cheapest player but looking for a high end system to compliment the investment I have made.

It’s true HD is a great format but at what cost of ‘TOTAL’ ownership. That’s the big stumbling block, not which player hardware format is cheaper or discs are cheaper. I don’t plan to upgrade my old CRT till it dies. But I do have a HD projector in my dedicate ‘High-End’ cinema room for top notch movies (obviously this is ‘my’ preference of movie types). I’m happy to watch run of the mill stuff on my standard TV but certain types of movies (generally Action, Sci-Fi and Horror) I like to watch where I get the FULL Cinema experience. For now up scaling SD’s looks great, but I hope to move to HD before the year is out, hence my interest in HD related articles.

Studios have stated the extra space was not needed and the larger format was in the spec to begin with when hd-dvd was first announced.

The fact remains when you compare a 30 gig HD disk (300) to BR (300) there is NO difference in quality, so why does blu-ray need more space and has less features. This was the point I asked all along its not being accusatory but rather where is that extra space? NO ONE can answer it. I get the usual ("its impossible for hd-dvd to look as good as br since there is more space")

The thing is since br and hd-dvd use two different codecs (for the majority of their releases) how do you determine which is the better codec avc or vc-1?

I'm not sure if you'll ever be able to do a 100% 1 to 1 comparison. Let's face it both formats look good, the question is Joe public willing to upgrade for this? Especially when you read about the War, disc issues, compatibility issues etc.. DVD was a big jump from VHS not just in quality, but ease of use etc.. HD Discs is not such a big change, but needs a better screen as well to enjoy this format (and Digital connection if possible which the early HD sets in the US did not have).

So the TOTAL cost to move to HD is larger for a smaller improvement.

Very true but the whole point is hd-dvd is cheaper to make, costs less and you get more.

So the average joe would look at hd-dvd and wonder why is this considerably cheaper what does blu-ray do differently, why would I choose blu-ray over hd-dvd. Yet, not one person can give me an answer without going bats*** insane about BR being the ruler of all.

"Actually the majority of Blu-Ray movies are 50GB nowadays."

- Wrong.

The majority of available BD movies are 25gb single layer discs.
179 BD25's v 118 BD50.
http://www.blu-raystats.com/index.php

You just keep trying to dodge the facts with your condescending 'slight-of-hand' deception - cos that's what that 'nowadays' was meant to be wasn't it?

"You don't have a clue of what you are talking about, really."

- LMAO.
Coming from a laughably tragic google-fraud and propagandist like yourself I'll take that as a compliament.

"Blu-Ray movies are encoded using H.264 MPEG-4 AVC Part 10 codec which is the best one until H.265 gets finalized around 2010 at least..."

- BS
Blu-ray movie codecs = 150 MPEG2 v 81 AVC v 68 VC-1.

The rest is your laughable attempt to spin ever decreasing circles and is as pathetically selective and irrelevant personal opinion as per usual from you.

"HD-DVD can't look better because it's bitrate limited, maximum overall muxed bitrate on HD-DVD is around 30Mbps, while Blu-Ray can go up to 50Mbps, almost twice as much and using the same codec for comparison you would always end up with a far higher quality due to lower compression. "

- Busted.

What a ludicrous liar.

The video bit-rate for HD DVD is 29.4mbps.

The video bit-rate for Blu-ray is 40mbps.

The raw transfer rate for Blu-ray is 53.98mbps.

The raw transfer rate for 51gb TL HD DVD is 1.5 x 36 = 54mbps.

The raw transfer rate for 30gb DL HD DVD is 36.55mbps.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blu-ray_Disc

40mbps v 29.4mbps is not "almost twice as much" and 51gb TL HD DVD does in fact have a higher bit-rate than Blu-ray.

But whilst it's fun to see HD DVD spike that little pi*sing contest the Blu-ray crew loved to indulge in; only the most ignorant, superficial and idiotic 'grasp' of how the latest modern a/v codecs work could imagine that this merely boils down to a simplistic 'higher bit-rate must mean better' mantra.

The funny truth in this is, who even needs uber bandwidth when you don't have to deal with crappy, antiquated codecs or wasteful & uncompressed audio?

There's a strong rumour that a BTTF trilogy is going to be one of the first 51gb movie releases.

"HD-DVD does not need the extra space that Blu-Ray offers, but then comes out with a similar capacity version? So size does matter (and don’t let any lady tell you any different), but also what you do with it counts more?"

- Precisely; that size is not (contrary to the previous Blu-ray fanclub's claims) needed to effect an excellent quality transfer.

That's not to say having it won't be handy for some movies & TV releases.....but my own view is that it'll be more useful for PC burners as they come (ironically for backing up movies onto HD DVD from BD-rips on the net).

"One question I have how does adding a third layer increase the data transfer speed?"

- It's to do with the 1.5 x spin speed needed, so 1.5 x the current peak raw bit-rate (36.55mbps) = 54.8mbps.

"Plus does adding the 3rd layer increase the manufacturing costs?"

- Undoubtedly.....but that isn't such an issue as HD DVD is so much more related to existing DVD tech.

It's pretty certain that right now 2 things are going on with the blank media, Blu-ray are undoubtedly subsidising theirs (cos Viacom/Paramount said as much) and HD DVD are still charging an early adopter premium.

"Also the writable HD discs are only single layer (for now at least) from my understanding".

- No, there is DL media now available.

"The price for these are artificially high to make it cost in-effective to use them to copy movies".

- No, it's a pretty standard business practice, it's about charging a premium for the unique features.

But the sooner it goes the better.

"It’s great news for China to supposedly produce HD-DVD players for Wal-Mart, but then bad news for Blu-Ray to have manufacturing done in China?"

- No.

It's great news for HD DVD to have licenced 'reference designs' to China.

That's not the same as 'assembly' or component manufacture in China (which they all go in for).

Blu-ray specifically said they would not 'go Chinese' because it was an original aim of the entire project to return, to those CE companies taking part, the kinds of profit margins they 'enjoyed' when DVD 1st was released.

"1/ Con: Content - Studio's might rush to get more movies on the shelf in format X which might mean quality suffering (this is my BIGGEST Con concern i.e. why pay HD prices which would be as good if not better on SD at a lower price)."

- Most releases are pretty well scrutinised now.
Not all are spectacular it's true but most are very good and well above the 'standard' of SD DVD.
It's true that some early Blu-ray releases (The Fifth Element, House of the Flying Daggers etc on MPEG2) were so bad as to be barely better than regular SD DVD (so much so that they were re-done and rereleased.....but sadly they were still not outstanding transfers, although admittedly better) but even they have since upped their game.

"I guess the same might be said for Hardware."

- Every review you can find will tell you that HD DVD improves with every generation.

"2/ Con: You have to make a decision on one the other or why not both formats (that is if you are interested/can afford and even have a HD-TV etc...) or have to wait for one to win (which might be a loooooooong wait)."

- I would have agreed with that until very recently.
The Viacom/Paramount decision and the Chinese changed my mind entirely.
I used to think HD DVD would 'win' but take about 2 - 3yrs to do so and that the 'win' might be phyrric and possibly not enough to escape the niche to seriously enter the mainstream mass-market.

But after Viacom/Paramount & the Chinese news (and the 51gb TL disc too) I reckon this will be over within 12mths.

HD DVD will win and will become the next mainstream format.
Blu-ray will decline into a PS3 proprietary format
(which if the Blu-ray side were honest is pretty much exactly what it really is now anyways).

If you take the PS3 out of the 'BD equation' it's obvious that BD died and was buried long ago.
They love to claim all that CE support (which is declining btw as former 'Blu-ray exclusive' companies like Samsung and LG go format neutral) but the truth is the vast majority of Blu-ray capable players are PS3s.

"3/ Pro: This is forcing the prices down far quicker than any previous format (not good for the developers as it will take longer to re-coup their investment, but good for the punters maybe)."

- $149 entry level HD DVD players agree.
$450-$499 entry level Blu-ray players don't.

"With regards to the price, someone spending several thousand dollars on a high end Display will probably think twice about matching this with a Cheap player."

- True but it's also true that for the price of the entry level (and under-spec'd) Blu-ray player (only 'profile 1.0') you could be buying a pretty high-end award winning Toshiba HD XA2 (the HD A2 is also award winning)

"I personally won’t be going out to buy the cheapest player but looking for a high end system to compliment the investment I have made."

- Then HD DVD is the format that offers you not only a range of players and spec but also a finished spec
(unlike Blu-ray which is still awaiting a single 'profile 1.1' or 'profile 2.0' player).
HD DVD also offers the most (available, exclusive and potential) content.

Well at this time there is more blo-ray players than HD but that has already started to change. So what is your point? What you said makes no point at all about quality of the picture of sound. Maybe that is to much for you to understand at one sitting.

I like the way the tables have turned in hd favor almost over night.