Would be better for Microsoft to introduce native support of the standard format.

Would it?

Why?

I like using MS Office only because it has the gramma check tool as English is not my native. But I also dislike the way Microsoft threat the business by not supporting the standard.. just like its country not respecting international agreements.

Because then it would be less likely for an update to *accidentally* break ODF support.

Yeah, so much for MS continuing to keep the office market locked down with their proprietary formats. MS has to know their office business is doomed, I give it about 5 years before they start to dwindle to 0. With openoffice.org out as well as writely from google coming eventually. Well they will be hurting.

MS has to know their office business is doomed, I give it about 5 years before they start to dwindle to 0.
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Yep, t'was a time when WordPerfect was practically the only game in town too.

You're insane if you think Writely is ever going to replace Office or even Word.

You never know. Free vs. Not free is a pretty big sell.

If the useability and functionality is on par...

*shrug*

Writely ain't awe-insiring or anything, but with Google backing it.....

"It is not clear if the group plans to make the plug-in publicly available" - everything is publicly available if you use p2p only.

If you use P2P only, you're hamstringing yourself.

I think it should be noted, that after doing some research, I found some interesting information..

http://opendocumentfellowship.org/Resources/FAQ

*OpenDocument covers text files, spread sheets, presentations, charts, graphical documents, databases and more.*

So this isn't merely a Word replacement, its a whole open connectivity. So my question is then, what front end will they use? OpenOffice?

In order to create/open these ODF formats, and if you DON'T have MS Office, then there has to be SOMETHING used in the creation..

Also, requiring updates, security patches, etc... You can slam MS, but they do have a head start on password protected files, security fixes, document conversion, scripting.. is the ODF going to insure that ALL users of this new adopted format have these features?

*Which governments are supporting OpenDocument?

The US Commonwealth of Massachusetts
The European Union
Norway.*

They are going to have to get more support than that if they expect this to be successful.

I'm sure you will be surprised. Open standards create thriving markets. With ODF word processor programs are only the beginning. We will see many tools from many software companies for generating ODF from many different data sources; products to convert, re-format, and transform your ODF documents; data bases to store, categorize, and data mine collections of ODF documents. The possibilities are not limited.

Openness is exciting because everyone gets to build what they want, unless what they want is a monopoly.

Couldn't open-source be considered a monopoly? I mean look at all of the companies involved--together they can completely eliminate any competition, including Microsoft!

Okay yes, that was quite a stretch. Legally it is not a monopoly at all I suppose--

I'll be skeptical whether this plug-in will works in all programs in Microsoft Office. Especially in Microsoft FrontPage, Outlook, Access and EXCEL. I'll bet it will not have 100% success rate at converting Excel and Access documents to Open Document formats.

Keep in mind that even Microsoft's own conversions are not 100% successful between major versions of their own apps (especially if you try moving backwards, but even if you are only moving forward in version).

The real problem with arguments on both sides of this issue is that everyone assumes 100% fidelity will always be an absolute requirement. And certainly there will be situations where 100% fidelity is absolutely necessary, but the vast majority of real-world scenarios will do just fine with "almost good enough" solutions. That's because the vast majority of real-world users are not militant fanatics who participate on tech blogs. Even within IT organizations, the bulk of people are 9-to-5ers who are rarely interested in new acronyms until it becomes time to lie on their next resume about them.

Let's see what is the definition of monopoly. One company or product that has over 50 percent market share. Open source- freely distributed product technology or idea available any company or person who wants it. How does that equal monopoly. You made it sound like a technology that is free which competes with a product for sale is a monopoly, do some research before posting something like that.

Also let's not forget, due to nature of open source. There is real no way to gage a market share from it. Look at linux, or openoffice, there is no way to tell how many people or companies are using it. They could have bought a windows box, then turned it into a linux one, a copy of office came on it it's now erased. So while MS can claim they now have 200 million windows computers in existence. Maybe only 160 million of them are still running windows and office. But who would know unless you can get everyone to take a survey.

Your argument may apply for Microsoft Word, but it doesn't for Microsoft Excel. Microsoft will guarantee 100% forward compatibility for Excel, because they will be suspectible for lawsuits if it doesn't work. Microsoft will assist you in migrating xls files made by previous versions to newer ones.

Microsoft does this because they don't want their customers to have errors in their spreadsheets, which may result in error when reporting figures to authorities like Securities Commission. This will results in punitive fines by SEC, and affected companies will sue Microsoft in turn.

OpenDocument Foundation must make sure that the plugin can convert all XLS files made Excel 97 and newer, with varying complexities to ODF equivalent formats, error-free 100% all the time without loss of data and functions, if the foundation wants organizations, especially the ones that are publically-traded, to even look at the ODF format. And OpenDocument Foundation better not put disclaimers saying "Use this plugin at your own risk" or stuff like that, because it just shows that the plugin is not reliable enough.

Do not ever underestimate the need of companies that have to abide to a lot of laws. A half-ass plugin that will not work all the time will not be touched by any of the Microsoft houses.

Microsoft Excel and Microsoft Outlook/Exchange/Active Directory combo are the primary reasons why Office monopoly is still going strong. There are pretty good alternatives out there, but the migration path is often arduous and too expensive to justify.
And with the introduction of SharePoint Services, that migration path become much harder, mainly because the other alternative (a group of solution from IBM) is even expensive.

Sorry, you are mistaken in two ways.

1. Excel 5.0/95 allowed you to attach sound notes to cells. Although you can perform the same task in Excel 97 and later (via Insert Object), it is not implemented nor stored the same as the "sound notes" feature in 5.0/95. If someone used sound notes in 5.0/95 to explain a particular function or value that might be questioned by an auditor later, the explanation would be lost after the file is opened in 97/2000/2002/2003 and re-saved. Additionally, many Excel 4.0-5.0 files contain formulas based on the old XLM macro language (predecessor to VBA). Although most of XLM is still supported for backward compatibility, some expressions simply don't work without manual rewriting. Although Microsoft provides instructions, it isn't something that any converter can handle automatically. While these aspects may be relatively minor, they prevent Excel from achieving "100%" compatibility.

2. You missed the real point I was trying to make. Even if we ignore the compatibility issues above, it still only leaves Excel with 100% compatibility on a CONTENT basis. For many years, third parties have been able to convert the CONTENT of Word documents without issue. The big OpenDoc whine is that people need 100% fidelity of layout and formatting: everything from page breaks to bullet styles to kerning. Excel certainly isn't immune to this issue because page breaks sometimes s*** when an old Excel file is opened in a newer version. Big deal? My argument is that it's USUALLY NOT, but the meat of OpenDoc's slam on Microsoft is based on the assumption that this kind of stuff is ALWAYS critical.

Hello??? Talking about Excel 95 or before in year 2006??? Hey, there is no way you expect somebody will fully support a file created more than 11 years ago!!! Be realistic, dude!

...

Bit behind the times rijp? OpenOffice already supports OpenDocument. It has since version 2 was released last year (October?).

As far as support, OpenOffice is already making some serious headway in becoming a useful alternative to MS Office for home users, and some large businesses. I know when I sell a PC, telling someone they need to update their MS Office version for XP compatibility, and that it will cost the $500+, having a free option is valuable. After all, people who are looking to upgrade on the cheap (everyone wants to save a buck) are hardly going to pay 50% of the system price again in a single Office suite.

As far as security is concerned, ODF will have the advantage of being open-source - meaning any flaws it has should be found in it's early days, and solved quickly. Obviously *should* isn't the same as *will*.

Yes, Excel does have problems when upgrading to a later version.

But my point is Microsoft will assist you to convert your files to later versions. They have lots of partners to help companies does that. Your function, formulas will be intact, and there will be guarantees that your spreadsheets will still shows the correct values after upgrading. Microsoft Excel is not only a spreadsheet program, it is the most widely used software development program in the planet, and used by lotsa people who know nothing about programming at all.

If the plugin can't even converts the macros, functions, formulas effortlessly and ACCURATELY, don't even think that big companies will ever adopt Open Document from Microsoft Office. Excel is one program that will almost tied you into Office monopoly.

Monopolies are like guns, nothing wrong with having one, just don't use it to hurt people.

Thumbs up for Massachusetts who made it all possible!!!

It was one senator (whose relative probably works for the Oasis Group) that was promoting it. It was promptly rejected by a higher court in the state of MA. They didn't allow them to switch.

So you would be WRONG! Its only a small commonwealth, and it has NOT been officially adopted, they are only showing their support.

This also doesn't mean they CEASE using Office.

State of MA calls itself the commonweath of MA and Eric Fehrnstrom, communications director at Gov. Mitt Romney's office said "There have been no changes in the commonwealth's published OpenDocument rules, and we are still on track for a January 2007 implementation,"

This was never about Microsoft Office. MA would love to use Office. They just want to save their files in a format that meets their criteria.

Well this is a start in the right direction.. As long as people can effectively share files, that's all we need.

I am thinking if there is a plug in for Office, users will use this as an opportunity to simply save the file, and save it as a Word document..

So the ODF will be giving Office uers (of which I would wager 80% of the world is using) an easy out to this new format.

I really don't see people using a new format just because some committee wants to make a name for themselves.

They just want to make a name for themselves? Wtf dude you really must be on crack. They were most likely just tired of MS trying to stick them with their proprietary formats. Why would MS not want to use open source. I mean that is why it is in there. They said we want a product that has this format in it, everyone else supports why don't you. So what happened now, as I recall ms said it would be impossible or there wasn't customer demand or something. As usual, ms makes up what they think customers want, why not just do a survey? Ms is just a bunch of closed minded fools who think they, and not the customers are the industry.

"Wtf dude you really must be on crack."
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Had no idea someone had to be on crack to have an opinion other than yours or anyone elses's for that matter.
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"Ms is just a bunch of closed minded fools..."
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For close minded fools Microsoft is quite successful, don't you think?

"For close minded fools Microsoft is quite successful, don't you think?"

One has *nothing* to do with the other. :)