Why even bother using 3rd Party software? Why not use Windows's tools to get the job done. And because it is integrated and from the company, it has WAY more functions (i.e. Office, WMP, IE) and is more stable.

And if the Linux people keep whining, why don't you go back to your lovely "Land of Linux", where supposedly EVERYTHING IS SO GOOD (Cough, cough).

Ha Ha Ha! Oh, you're killin' me! I can't laugh this hard, this early in the morning!!! ROFL! LOLOL! Oh stop it! "and is more stable" Oh that's good! LMAO! Somebody help me off the floor! Quick, get that man an HBO Comedy special!

yeah, its kinda funny, but, taken word to word that the original statement, its kinda right, my WinXP is considerable (in my own opinion) very2x stable. It was running 2 weeks continuesly without any OS error or software hang (sometime my NAV get stunned, but i believe it's its own error). Problem is if u installed mal/ad/beta/RC/stupid software. In short, i know this kinda funny, but yet again, as seinfield says, its trueee!...

Hmm, so let me get this straight... MS can no longer ship Windows with Media Player which means-- A) Unless I get off my lazy keister and go download a free media player or B) I get off my lazy keister and spend some hard earned dough on a not-free media player-- I can no longer listen to music or watch videos on my computer.

Wow, it's wonderful to know that I *FINALLY* have a choice now! :D

Yes indeed, I can finally feel free to make a choice to take time out of my busy schedule and valuable bandwidth on a dial-up connection to download a free add-in that USED to come with my OS... OR... I can spend money on a program that I used to have for free.

OK, so now that I have this new-found freedom of choice, let's look at the competitive choices:

1) RealPlayer-- Gee, what a great choice... it installs without many choices and yet makes so many config changes like adding a task-tray utility that I never use... it defaults to allow cookies be saved that monitor my surfing and listening habits... and oh yeah, just to open it, 8.0 Basic(which comes with AOL and *used* to be free) uses 12MB of RAM (compared to WinMedPlayer's 4.5MB to open). I don't even want to know about the newer versions.

2) QuickTime-- Really a decent media player, even allows multiple files to be opened simultaneously, but... no PlayList functionality, and only limited file-type support.

3) WinAmp-- Ahhhh, now we're talking! It's a great little player. Supports Skins so it can be all pretty! (we all know looks are important when it comes to media players and software!) Small, relatively fast, easy to use.

4) Countless No Name Players-- sure there's others, but who's ever heard of them besides a few faithful followers?

So thanks again to all the people who FINALLY gave me these choices... but wait... I already had these same choices all along! Hmm... so basically, the only difference is that instead of already having one pre-installed choice AND several others, NOW I only have a choice in what I can download or pay for.

Let me do the math, but that seems like it's one choice LESS NOT MORE. Way to go guys, you threw away YOUR CHOICE to simply stop using the one you don't like and getting one you do like in favor of taking an option away from the rest of us. Thanks a lot!

Oh I forgot a choice... MusicMatch is another great player, and I forgot to list it. Please don't sue me for excluding some competition... I swear it was an accident :)

that'll be $300 million. If it was done on purpose to hurt musicmatch then it'd be a $600 million fine. The EU will see you in court soon.

I see your point. I am in support of the additional OPTION of installing WMP (ie. have it on the CD).

You have the choice to completely remove media player? OHHH, RIIIGHT, your "choices" only included options to strengthen your argument but intentionally left all of the facts out.

Indeed... that would also make a lot of sense! :)

Options-- GOOD!

Forcing something through ignorance-- BAD!

fewt, as usual your posts lack support... demonstrate a knowledge and understanding of the subject, AND support your points before debating with the rest of the group! :)

That's all you've got?

HAH

Ghoice has always been way to hard for sheep. Thankfully, not all of us are sitting around waiting to be sheered.

Of course, that is also one more question that must be asked to the user when all they are trying to do is install the OS. Imagine if ALL the other add-ins are presented during installation... do you want to install notepad, do you want to install paint, do you want to install...

Let's see now ... you must be American! Gee, that wasn't too hard, was it?

Do we all really follow every single law our countries made?

If you do, you are a truly a Holyman of Law.

Not to mention many stupid laws are not done for the better of the world or for the justice.

Give me a break...

Even thou 497 million of EU to MS is piece of cake but they aren't responsible for that stupid reason. It's insane....

One way to end all this:
force EVERY OS maker to sell ONLY the basic OS- no "text editor", no media player, no nothing but the basic OS. Then, make people pay for every add-on. I mean all Linux, MS, Sun, Apple- everyone. No one would be allowed to add any new, free functions; it could only be bought.
Starting "now", for instance, pull every OS off the web, out of stores, have them stripped to bare OS and that's all. How many would sell from there?
(the moral: either all treated the same, or all gone)

James W

JAMES! :-)

"AAAAAAGHT wrong"

They are being punished for breaking the law, I don't see how punishing the whole market will make things any better. Make every last component optional all the way down to cmd.exe, and I would be all over that argument.

heh

How you been buddy?

err all about.. need more coffee

The EU is forcing MS to sell a copy of windows that does not include Windows Media player...it's not even optional, They HAVE to remove it. You're saying that if MS had shipped windows XP with the option of removing Media Player...that small third party media players would not complain. That's bs...they'd still complain and MS would still be sued. The guy is right...force all companies to sell their OS with no components whatsoever to make sure all third party developers are happy, and have the consumers purchase all the components. That'd make all these lawyers happy...how would the consumers feel? Well who cares...it's not the consumers these lawyers are looking out for anyway, it's their own pockets they want to keep thick.

"The EU is forcing MS to sell a copy of windows that does not include Windows Media player."

Yes, it's a punishment. However, they are still allowed to also sell a full version with it integrated so no one really loses here except Microsoft which is the point the EU wanted to achieve. I fully believe with shipping a version of XP with every single component customizable is a great idea. I think Microsoft should sell a version of XP to OEM's that is in "kit" form, where I can build a line of computers that do not include outlook express, IE, and Media player as well as a line that does include them. :-)

Oops, mouseslip! Personally I would love that idea. Most Linux distros are so bloated it's not even funny with 1.5 million useless utilities and I would love a stripped copy of Windows XP.

Why Fewt, I am doing just wonderful! Slipped on a grape at a store and made my back worse, transportation broke, no work, to hot, pets died....and that was just last week! (email me at jamwheat@msn.com)

As to my posting: I believe in the "all or none" approach. Either all can do it, or none. No favorites allowed. Remember why there is a "Foul language and personal attacks will not be tolerated." tag before posting? Because a few bad apples (like Aitvo, eh" haha..) EVERYONE is having to abide by rules created for a few that liked to cause problems.

James W

And Fewt- how about useing "XPLite" to remove the stuff afterward? I tried the full version, and you can do a bit with it.

James W

XPLite would be great, but it's not part of the OS when IT should be.

Are you implying that I have caused problems? (HAHA!)

You know XPLite is put out by an independant company- if it was licensed and incorporated in the OS, people would scream about that. Just like they did when MS licensed Roxio's cd burning technology "They need to be sued! They are going to put all burner companies out of business!"

James W

No one would scream about adding more "choice" to the OS. People are screaming because things are being welded on when they should be bolted. Adding XP Lite functionallity to the OS should be a given, and XP Lite should not even need to exist.

Fewt, I can't believe you said "Adding XP Lite functionallity to the OS should be a given, and XP Lite should not even need to exist." What if MS put that functionality in the next OS? Wouldn't that run XP Lite's makers out of business? >;)

James W

There should not have been a need for them to exist in the first place.

If it was up to the EU and all the other anti-MS zealots and crooks - cars would come without steering wheels and tires, bicycles without a seat, TV's without a remote, toasters without a plug and...
operating systems would come without basic programs, all in the name of "fairness." If Windows didn't include a web browser, how would a new computer user be able to download another browser or other program. THEY COULDN'T! YOU HAD TO GO AND BUY NETSCAPE, A PRODUCT THAT HAD A COMPLETE MONOPOLY ON THE BROWSER MARKET UNTIL INTERNET EXPLORER. Windows now includes a zip function in it's OS. SHOULD THEY BE BLED DRY TO FILL THE POCKETS OF WINZIP AND OTHERS?
And when they say "it's not about the money", IT'S ALL ABOUT THE MONEY! ALL THEY WANT IS A CASH COW TO MILK, MONEY TO STEAL FROM A PROFITABLE (like that's a crime) BUSINESS.

You know, your "Mike Cox" just isn't on today. :-P

You are so right it's not even funny.

It's about time someone did something about this. They have monopolized the software industry for far too long. They did it with Internet Explorer, too. When you integrate every essential element into an operating system, you are basically putting a sign on your forehead asking for a lawsuit. It's not fair to other companies.

That's my two cents.

"Media Player integrates with IE in a way that helps web developers play media files within IE"

This is a license to use Media player in Windows....If EU wants to use a Video Screen to play other files.. Why Not get a TV tuner ? Use other Video files? MS should have a right to use ANYTHING in IT'S BROWSER ...If One wants to use anything else,,,it's called downloading... Windows should COME with everything to make surfing,browsing,The Best Full Experience Windows-on-the-web..I hate to Go get something like codecs everytime I install WindowsXP..WHY Should I Do THAT ?

""" the EU is expected to ask Microsoft to strip Windows Media Player from Windows and open up its Windows blueprints"""

Why Are they taking out Stuff that THEY Need? Why are they buying Windows as what it is and clicked yes to agreements...and then Saying to MS "Take out this or we sue" ,,this sounds like a Request for something to be done.. rather than a recall... EU is asking for a REcall Of Windows XP because it Works too GOOD !!

497 Million = $200.00 XP Pro upgrade at Walmart.

The EU is screwing us all on this one!

The EU is not screwing us, if Microsoft raises prices to offset it's fine then Microsoft is screwing us.

That's like saying game software developers are screwing us for raising prices on games because 70% of people download them from newsgroups. The software pirates aren't screwing us...it's the game developers...right?

It's nothing like that, in your example the pirates are breaking the law. In this example it is Microsoft breaking the law.

For your example to work you would have to be sympathetic to the pirates that were selling illegal copies of games and against the game companies for stopping them. Do you really understand the situation so little that that's the side of the camp you want to be on? LOL

MS broke the law by including a media player with their OS. But netscape is not breaking the law by including an email client with their browser, and bmw is not breaking the law by including a radio with their cars. But I'm not a lawyer or a lawmaker...so what do I know.

Exactly, you are neither a lawyer or a lawmaker so your bad examples are meaningless. ;-)

So that makes me wrong and you right...are you a lawyer? I didn't think so...you wouldn't be on this site if you were.

I never said I was right, what I did say was that I would rather not side on the side of the pirate. I agree with the EU, and well they are the lawyers and lawmakers that deemed their actions illegal so I guess that's what really matters now, isn't it.

:-P

I guess you must lack common sense then, or any sort of brain power to develope logical opinions of your own not based on a higher power or foreign government. You PERSONALLY believe, that microsoft should pay $500 MILLION because they bundled a media player with their OS??? Give me a break...this is what lawyers and lawmakers do...try to find any possible way or any loophole to suck as much money as possible from as big of a corporation as possible to line their pockets. You think the EU is really doing this to better the people of the world? You really believe the world will be a better place now that MS has to pay half a million to EU and be forced to not include a media player with their OS? Wake up...you can't be brainwashed can you?

"I guess you must lack common sense then, or any sort of brain power to develope logical opinions of your own not based on a higher power or foreign government. "

Actually it was my common sense that lead me to the conclusion that they were absolutely correct to fine them. I'm sorry if your simple mindedness forces you to attack me because you have lost the argument.

Again...you're making no argument to backup this need of yours to agree with the EU. The best and only argument you have made throught all these post is...and I quote...
"I agree with the EU". Wow...please stop this master debator he's making too many solid points. And you still haven't told me why it's ok for netscape to bundle a mail reader but not for microsoft.

Ahh, this comment explains everything.

Hurry, you don't want to be late for class.

Welcome back fewt! It was too quiet without you. :)

The EU has done similar things like this to other American companies in the past...

"Protectionism" best describes what the EU is about!

EU has the impression they hold Excalibur.

did-jya miss me? (LOL)

Gimme a break .. you wouldn't even know what Excalibur is.

Well, since it is Microsoft's own product.
They deserve the rights to do whatever they want to their products.
Others shouldn't interfere with MS's business because they want to feed their pet more food.

Now we know why M$ is releasing WINXP reloaded.

"Microsoft is accused of unfairly tying its Windows Media Player technologies into the Windows operating system..."

Let's see - RealPlayer works, so does Quicktime, no problem with Winamp and QDC. If fact there are dozens of media players that work on Windows. You can turn on and turn off just about everything in Windows and add as many browsers, media players, zip programs, firewall and virus tools that you want.... and the crying continues.

People complain about insecurity with Windows so MS adds a simple firewall and will add built-in AV protection designed by RAV (one of the best), a great idea for newbies and moms and pops. Now people will complain that they don't want protection. So people will cry and yell "GIVE ME MONEY!"

I'd tell them to stuff it. Let them use Linux.

These money-eater just want MONEY, not JUSTICE.

THIS IS WORSE THAN BANK ROBBERIES.

I found the European maximum panality of 10% of global revenue excessive rather. But then again, most of us have no direct say in the laws of our nation.....

I put "rather" in the wrong place. Must do more proof reading in the future.

i actually like bank robberies, they entertain me on copshows

I agree that it is robbery. Just accept that M$ make a very good looking product which is easy to learn.

Stop with fines already. Get a life. Make a beeter product if you have the b****s

...for integrating Windows Media Player?

If the European Union wants to steal money from The United States, why don't they just use a gun? Or better yet, come up with something better than Windows, and don't say Linux either - on the desktop it's useless.

Even better yet... Lets pull Windows out of Europe.
Let them use Linux. I don't know know why they put up will all the BS.

Robbery is a good subject for this thread .. using Windows, with all its flaws, loopholes and back-doors, is like handing a total stranger the keys to your house and saying 'I'm going away for a week, help yourself!'.

Seriously, there are many of us who would love to use something other than MS. The trouble is that MS has such a stranglehold on the market that if anything threatening does begin to appear, they either buy it and kill it or sue it out of business in the courts (because THEY can afford it, struggling new businesses can't!)

Well... so, you think we pay Microsoft software in US dollars... You're wrong, dear! Microsoft makes millions of Euro in Europe! More than in the US.

When M$ sold Windows, Office, et al in Europe they agreed to obey all rules from the EU. The amonut of money involved is nothing to M$. They got lucky Windows wasn't ordered to be licensed to the other companies or least the conpanies that suffered. These actions while in the interest of competition are really to little, to late.

I agree. If they are going whine about it, I say take it away from them and see how they do without being able to get a legal Windows licence.

It's always the same story...Microsoft, Microsoft, Microsoft, just go and cry to your mommmy about it. And besides, no one uses Real player anyway.

We've seen how devastating it could become during our economic depression in the 1930s without government intervetion. Protection to the customers from companies that attempt to push their weight is something that we should look forward too. I prefer having choices than finding myself with very little choice on what products I can and cannot use: Example: Microsoft has a deal with roxio, but many of us may like other burning software. Just because Microsoft Windows now has Roxio setup in the operating system does *not* mean that other burning software is terrible. It simply means that they may not have been approached or had decided not to bundle their software with Microsoft Windows.

Secondly, I heard a rumour that Microsoft is planning on having an AV in the operating system as well. Frankly, I prefer running a third party software.

If you prefer something else, then use it. MS does not make you use the software they bundle.

I can understand EU's problem with not sharing "information needed to make their servers compatible with Windows desktop systems" to an extent. But stripping WMP from Windows is one of the most rediculously wasteful things I have ever heard. There are other more legitimate directions they could take. This is like putting Al Capone in prison for tax evasion because they couldn't get anything else on him.

True, I suppose I could always switch to something else, but then my clients would be quite upset about the whole matter. MS doesn't have a direct say in it, but they do have an indirect action: my clients use of it. So, do I prefer using something else? The operating system is fine, but when it comes down to the bundling, I really prefer if they have an option in setup for a custom installation.

As for if I really want to use something else? If most of the publishers supported other operating systems, I'd move.
But since they don't, I won't be able too.
Do I have a right to complain? Yup.

Oh, and Tax evasion IS illegal.
Now...I do have to agree with you on one thing. If they had to declare MS of antitrust issues, I'd say not to have them add AV software to the operating system and a few other things: firewall, cdr burning software.

Consumers should be warned that a company that has a very large market may experience less quality-based products.

There have been companies in the past which have decreased their quality once they have obtained a fairly large secured control.

....
Personally, and as a consumer, I prefer if the other companies exist to make future products better, and to continue giving us a choice in what products we can use.

Uhm...I don't understand your argument at all...it makes no sense whatsoever. Your clients are going to be upset if you use WinAmp to play your MP3's instead of Media Center??? Your clients will get upset if you use Netscape to browse the web instead of IE?? Your clients will drop you if you use a third party scientific calculator instead of the bundeled windows calculator to add up some numbers. Wow...it might be time for some new clients buddy...who's your client? Your 12 year old brother?

What you're also saying is...you prefer to buy windows, then HAVE to also purchase a media player, an MP3 player, a browser, a notepad...and all the other "inconvienent, disturbing, bundled" software without the option of using a free one that comes with the os?? Granted maybe it's not "free"...but I doubt windows will be cheaper if they strip the media center app from it.

I just don't understand your problem...the bundled software is there for your convinience...it's there for you to use IF YOU WANT. If you don't want to use the bundled cdr software...GET NERO!!!! If you don't like media player....get WINAMP!! It's not hard, really...it's all there on the internet for you to download or purchase in compusa, it's not a top level government held secret that software exists out there, somewhere, that'll do what you want if you don't want to use the bundled and tyically "lite" versions. And trust me...your client will not drop you if you burn a cd with Nero instead of the build in windows burner...you'll learn that when you actually get some clients, after you graduate high school and get some college education.

oh...and if you REALLY don't like it, you CAN use windows...unless your a gamer (which you probably are...your "clients" are your online gaming friends I'm assuming)...just about everything you want done in windows can be done in linux, just requires a lil more work.

hehe...that last paragraph should of read...
you can use LINUX!!!

He didn't say he wanted them removed so we would have to buy them separately. He said he wished there was a custom setup option so we could choose whether or not to install Media Player, Movie Maker, etc. Sure I don't have to use them, but if I'm not going to use them why the hell should I be forced to install them to begin with. Windows used to ask you what components you wished to install; now you have no choice.

That's a little racist dude, come on...

Let me explain something to you genious...Media Player integrates with IE in a way that helps web developers play media files within IE...you could remove the media player links from start menu and desktop (it's even in add/remove programs!)...it's just how they decided to make IE work...you don't like, get netscape, simple as that...delete the IE shortcut if you don't like looking at it, so what if it's a part of THEIR OS that THEY DEVELOPED, that's how they want it to work. Netscape should be sued for integrating an email client with their web browser...I want to use netscape but not their email client, I should sue them for $500 million for that unnecessary integration. And if you don't like it, like I said before...you can always use Linux.

You know what...I think I'm going to sue BMW for including tires with their cars...I want the option of not having tires so I can put in my own. The air conditioning also...who the hell do they think they are including an airconditioner in their car?!?! I want the option of putting in my own air conditioner, I guess I'll sue them for $500 million since I'm forced to get an air conditioner with their car...they don't have an option of not getting an AC, what a bunch of communists.

I agree, let them pull out of the EU. That will give software companies enough reason to port all of their wares to other OS's.

In the mean time simple minded folks can keep crying about how the big bad government is stepping on poor little microsoft, after all it's not their fault they can't abide by the laws of the countries they sell their products in.

"Media Player integrates with IE in a way that helps web developers play media files within IE"

Ok "genious", we call this file association. It's simple enough to change, and not all that tough to add once it's been removed so get over it.

"what a bunch of communists"

Yes, yes you are. Your examples are some of the most anti-capitalistic and unamerican that I have seen.

Congrats.

Can you explain to me how my example of bmw forcing me to have their air conditioner in their car is different then micrsoft forcing me to have media player installed in their os (but not forcing me to user it, unlike BMW?). I need some clarification, cuz apparently it's ok for bmw to do this but not MS. Isn't that selective enforcement? These poor after market car air conditioner makers can't get off the ground cuz car manufacturers include them in their cars... same goes for car radios (Pioneer isn't suing bmw for including a tape dec are they?). That's actually an even better example...BMW's tape or cd player are so integrated into their cars that you have to get a kit to install an after market radio...and it makes the inside of the car look ugly...why isn't bmw being sued again?? Maybe america should sue bmw cuz pioneer is selling less radios now.

WAIT I just rememberd...I DON'T have to buy bmw cars do I???! Doesn't ford give you the option of not having a radio or airconditioner...or I could go for that old fiat. You don't have to go with windows or IE either...you can go with any flavor of linux.

Uhm...I don't remember winamp playing from inside IE, even after changing file associations. Show me how to have a winamp window come up inside IE, please? and if it's simple enough to change, why don't YOU stop complaining and stop asking MS to pay $500 million for including something with a product THEY DEVELOPED.

"Can you explain to me how my example of bmw forcing me to have their air conditioner in their car is different then micrsoft forcing me to have media player installed in their os (but not forcing me to user it, unlike BMW?)."

Sure, BMW is not a monopoly. They can not s*** an entire market by bolting an AC unit under your hood.

" I need some clarification, cuz apparently it's ok for bmw to do this but not MS."

See above.

"Isn't that selective enforcement?"

No. If BMW held 90% of the market and then decided to weld their hood shut lawmakers would take action.

"These poor after market car air conditioner makers can't get off the ground cuz car manufacturers include them in their cars..."

The poor guys, maybe they should sell air conditioners that blow colder air than BMW, and make the part compatable. After all it's not like you can't unbolt the compressor and remove it. (Wait, there goes your argument)

"same goes for car radios (Pioneer isn't suing bmw for including a tape dec are they?)."

They are not suing because the radio in a BMW can be removed. Try removing IE or Media Player, and REPLACING them with something else.

"That's actually an even better example..."

Not really..

"BMW's tape or cd player are so integrated into their cars that you have to get a kit to install an after market radio..."

What, they sell a kit? So it can be done then..

'nuff said

"WAIT I just rememberd...I DON'T have to buy bmw cars do I???!"

Right.

"Doesn't ford give you the option of not having a radio or airconditioner..."

Nope, but again you can replace them.

"Uhm...I don't remember winamp playing from inside IE, even after changing file associations."

So ask the guys at nullsoft to implement it. Quicktime doesn't seem to have a problem.

"Show me how to have a winamp window come up inside IE, please?"

So you are using a half a** application to try to prove your point? Install quicktime then we'll talk.

"why don't YOU stop complaining and stop asking MS to pay $500 million for including something with a product THEY DEVELOPED."

Why wouldn't I? I'm not the one fining them, I just agreed with it.

You can install winamp on a windows PC and have winamp take over all file associations can't you? You're not forced to use windows media player. You never have to see media player again. Are you upset about the 5 megs of hard drive space it takes up? are those 5 megs worth $500 million? I haven't used netscape in a long time...but isn't the mail client integrated and CANNOT be removed from the browser? That's not illegal why...cuz netscape is a smaller company?

Yes, it's disturbing that a company with such large marketshare illegally bolts software to their OS that pushes them to the front of a new market overnight. That's why capitalism without law is anarchy. We have laws to protect entities from each other, god forbid we actually use them.

"So ask the guys at nullsoft to implement it. Quicktime doesn't seem to have a problem."

There you go...what's the problem then? Everything works, microsoft is not stopping anybody from making this work, so what's the problem? You're not making any kind of argument in favor of the EU, you're just "agreeing" with them for no particular reason other then the fact that you must hate microsoft. Don't use the OS if having a media player that you'll never use installed on your PC bother you that much.

Hey...the consumers make the product popular...not the company, not even microsoft. Believe it or not...consumers aren't dumb zombies that just take what's given to them. Everybody knows they have a choice...I don't know anybody that didn't know that other media player exist...they either use media player because they like it, or they purchased one that they like better. Windows isn't the most widely used OS just because MS said it's a good OS.

"So ask the guys at nullsoft to implement it. Quicktime doesn't seem to have a problem."

"There you go...what's the problem then?"

The hood is welded shut. It's not good enough to say "Ok, well that radio is there but you can just bolt this new one underneath it."
5MB adds up, I think it's more than fair to force them to share information on how to hook to their OS. I think it's more than fair to fine them $600M for not providing a way to remove components from their OS. I think it's more than fair to fine them $600M for their poor behavior in the world market. I think $600M is a LOW number, and if I had any say so in the matter I would have fined them $6B. Does that mean I hate MSFT? No, absolutely not. I think ALL of their products have so much potential in the grand scheme of things that they are ultimately hurting ME by not allowing ME to innovate, and by not allowing ME to enter a market that they want to be in, and they are hurting ME by crushing products that I have paid MY hard earned money for leaving me to be forced to use something that they created in a way that they want me to. That kiddo is not capitalism, it is communism. That is unamerican, and it's pathetic that our current government has no interest in stopping them leaving it to outside countries to put them back in their place where they belong as a competitor and not a corporate bully. I need no other reason than my FREEDOM to want them dealt with as I am not the one that has broken the law. Again, you resort to personal attacks and bulls*** claims to make your pathetic excuse for an argument work in your measly little mind. In fact I actually prefer Windows Media Player to any other on the Windows platform for video playback, but that does not mean I do not want them to be forced to allow me to remove it on systems I do not want or need it on. My OS choice should not be based on what is bolted into it just as my choice in cars should not be based on what brand head unit is installed in it. Including it is fine, as long as it's removable. They argued it was not, they lost the end.

You are absolutely correct, It is the most widely used OS. It is that way because Microsoft penalizes anyone that sells a computer without their OS, leading to a market where it is more difficult than it is worth to purchase a computer without Windows. I know, I've purchased computers and attempted to get the refund because I did not click I agree, just as I have purchased computers and used the Windows license that came with it.

Don't forget, once upon a time there were multiple OS choices. We had DR-DOS, DOUBLE-DOS, MS-DOS, PC-DOS, GeoWorks, etc.. etc.. Now, we have Windows sold on 99.9% of all PC hardware and Linux on .8. I see the choice there.

Ok...this is a point I can agree with you on, MS should be fined and sued for penalizing companies for not using their os...but I still don't think MS should be penalized for making their own product the way they want to make it. They're just being fined for the wrong reason...if the headline said "ms to pay $500 million for forcing dell to use Windows"...I'd agree with that.

Thanks fewt that's all I was asking for...something to back up your argument instead of just saying that I'm wrong. It's hard not to make it personal when I write a few paragraphs only to get a response of "you're wrong you don't know what you're talking about". I still don't agree tho'...MS shouldn't be penalized for including something in their product just cuz they're a big company. If someone can make a good product, and they can market it well, they'll be able to survive. nullsoft is still around even tho' media player is included with windows. Nobody said it's easy to be a startup company.

I would completely agree with you if they would only work towards becoming a better corporate citizen by for example laying off and allow components to be removed instead of lying to lawmakers about how it can not be done. Honestly, look at Martha Stewart. She would be enjoying her cooking shows, or meeting with her company execs today if she hadn't flat out lied to the investigating team. I think Microsoft being so many times bigger should be a role model of how business is done, and not the most feared company in existance. Personally I would not only have gone for $6B, but I would have gone after it and a 100% management change. It's not the company that's the problem, it's the people running it.

Here is ultimately the deciding factor in why I agree with this.

"The Commission's investigation revealed that Sun was not the only company that had been refused this information, and that these non-disclosures by Microsoft were part of a broader strategy designed to shut competitors out of the market."

- http://europa.eu.int/rap...D&lg=en&display=

I agree, they should not be penalized for including bundled software. They SHOULD be penalized for not allowing people to uninstall them. Components like these used to be optional in Windows and things worked just fine then. During setup you could choose what to install. Now you install what they tell you to, and you like it. As far as playing files in IE, doesn't it stand to reason that if I want to remove Media Player I would also not want IE using it to play files?

Another program that shouldn't be tied in is Movie Maker. It is nice that it is included, but what reason is there for it to be a required part of the OS that cannot be uninstalled? I have never used it and probably never will. Finally as for "hiding the icon" that whole thing was a joke. If I want to uninstall a program, I want it uninstalled. Not hidden away so I can pretend it's not there.

Feel free to disagree, you have a right to your opinions as much as I have to mine. However if you wouldn't mind to much do try to do so without throwing out childish insults.

Well, that claim assumes that windows media player is popular because it's bundled with windows...it assumes consumer won't download a better media player because one already comes with windows...and it basically assumes consumers don't have a mind of their own and can't make their own decisions. So MS has to pay half a billion dollars because the EU is saying that they're governing dumb, mindless people...I feel bad for any Europeans...your government thinks you're all retarted...come to America, where the government knows that if you don't like something, you're smart enough to get something you like better....but then again if the EU is right...don't bother coming we got enough dumb people living here already.

disclaimer: This post wasn't targeted at europeans, only at the assumption by the european government that europeans are dumb brainless consumers.

First, if you couldn't understand my argument, then you should really go back to school.

Second, I would love to have the option on what can be and cannot be installed.

third, I prefer if MS does not bundle some of 'stuff' since it would definitely reduce the quality of future products.
You could of course go and purchase a third party product, but most new consumers wouldn't bother.

Fifth, do you always get excited? With the times and dates, it seemed that you were too eager into responding without even thinking.

and the final, your personal attack on me was unwarranted. And frankly, if you don't understand what I'm talking about, its only you. I deserve an apology. :)

To say the truth, Linux isn't much cheaper than Windows in many ways.
Desktop, Linux, Free, yes.. but you can't play many games.
Server? 1. to get supported Linux, it cost you some money.
2. technical problems: hiring a guy who knows linux cost more than windows because even a newbie can just "click" "click" and set up windows.

I'm not saying Linux is bad, but too many people just think that you can get away with Linux for totally free.

Next, on Microsoft's case of 6B, I CAN understand why they did it, although I don't agree with it. I don't understand why Microsoft would be penalized for including Windows Media Player in their system. First of all, there ARE ways to TOTALLY remove windows media player from your computer, or NOT install media player at all when installing windows (by modifying your installation file and CD a bit). IF people don't want to do that, it means they're lazy enough to ACCEPT Windows the way it is now right? why should they fine Microsoft then?

sorry I meant, I don't THINK THAT IT'S FAIR... to penalize...not I don't understand. I do understand considering the world is concentrating on "protecting the weak" nowadays.

Well I never said Linux is free....cost really depends on the company and it's employees knowledge. But other then that I agree....this is all the work of a bunch of money sucking lawyers.

Because many users do not know enough about computers to go to all of this trouble. Nor should they; computers are not just for those who know how to get a computer to do exactly what they want. The only reason that Microsoft would make this task so tedious in the first place is to discourage people from performing it.

you forgot macs (like anybody cares anyway!)

we are missing the main point that EU dosn't even have the jurisdiction to fine microsoft about this topic anyway. of course that is for the lawyers to debate about. and very little will actually come of all this wasted time. besides, did anybody stop to wonder where this money is going to?

"EU dosn't even have the jurisdiction to fine microsoft about this topic anyway"

They certainly do, their alternative is to pull out and lost 30% of their market. I don't believe for a second their shareholders would allow that to happen.

It's simply greed and jealousy. You may be able to say that it's illegal according to the EU but everyone knows that their decision is not just. It's Microsoft's product and they should be able to do with it what they want. It's plain and simple.

"everyone knows that their decision is not just"

Everyone who? If you had read the comments you would see that I thought it needed to be more harsh, so I suppose that not EVERYONE thinks it's unjust.

"we are missing the main point that EU dosn't even have the jurisdiction to fine microsoft about this topic anyway." Man are you from planet "stoned"? If microsoft want to trade in Europe then they obey the law like everybody else - thats EUROPEAN LAW... not UNITED STATES!!

I've just read a statement from the MS CEO stating their appeal case "Microsoft is an American company, the complainants are American companies, the software is designed in the U.S.", doesn't this stink of hypocracy? Microsoft are willing to use EU law to stop Lindows trading is some european countries.

then a Senator went on to say "Today's ruling by the EU is yet another example of Europe's consistent harassment of American industry", what? and the US putting tarriffs on Steel imports is any different? get real.

Thats my rant over with :)

so why do you think it should be more harsh?

The punishment should fit the crime. Microsoft won't learn a lesson by being fined .05% of their profits.

fewt wins!