With all due respect, this entire line of debate is a bit wacked.

With regards to what Rijp has said, I will agree that the majority here have little or no understanding of business management. In fact, to step on lots of toes, few here demonstrate an in depth understanding of business or of technology outside what many would garner from reading a gamer magazine or doing admin work on a Windows platform! (And this suggestion is further reinforced by the repeated queries of those who have no idea of who such standard technical industry market reporting groups such as Gartner and Forrester, are!!) Rather it sounds like the cafeteria of a small college where a bunch of hobbyists are gathered to vent their subjective hang-ups and preferences, rather then using real tools to discuss and evaluate the technological choices and tradeoffs and/or the business considerations of each product or company as they attempt to address their own market niche.

And for any who might be interested in cutting to the chase and becoming familiar with a few of these real tools, may I suggest you pick up a copy of “Plan To Win: Analytical and Operational Tools for Gaining Competitive Advantage – A Strategy Primer” by John Nugent ISBN0072931612 http://www.amazon.com/gp...p;v=glance&n=283155

If such technological or business acumen were present, the recurring MS and Apple bashing would be greatly reduced and some quite interesting discussions regarding market segments, product mix and strategic planning options and ramifications could occur. Heaven forbid anyone here ever stop and do a cursory SWOT and TOWS evaluation of a situation based upon real objective data and not simply upon some emotionally based subjective perception; and Then proceed to speak from some semblance of an informed opinion!

Unfortunately, while Rijp attempts to make a case for examining MS from a strategic business management perspective, this call for logic, however rare when discussing MS, is even more greatly missed in the rush the minute the Mac or Apple are mentioned – heck, with each mention of the Mac, 80% of the pro-MS crowd STILL thinks that the new Macs AREN'T 'PCs'! …Talk about the need for some BASIC research!

So unfortunately,the net result is what you see – a mass of noise with little insight or value, but lots of egos and teenage bravado. Yeah man….Unreal Tournament rules….yaaaaaaaaa!!!!! Like any game means squat to the strategic operation of an enterprise! Oh well…

---------------------------

But to address this 'what is late and what is not and how stupid is Gartner and how right or stupid is MS regarding the release of Vista' is actually quite easy to evaluate!
Let's stop and look for a second!

MS is largely to blame for this, simply as it has consistently made grandiose pre-announcements setting forth what have turned out to be repeatedly overreaching and over hyped goals with extremely optimistic release/ship dates. They then radically modify the developing product jettisoning features left and right so frequently that if these features were actual physical items it would be hazardous to stand next to a MS site! And then that overly optimistic ship date slips umpteen times as still more features are jettisoned. That’s simply an historical fact!

Now if one were to simply make a list and to report the myriad product announcements and subsequent modifications made by MS, and this simple report were read and compared with reality - with the compiler of this list graded based upon a comparison of the list’s contents and what has actually become manifest in the real world, the author of this 'list' would be graded a fool! And hence Gartner’s role in this tawdry passion play.

So to criticize a reporting of the discrepancies between MS’s claims and reality as a “WAG” is absurd! The root problem is that a majority of MS’s original predictions are PURE FANTASY and wishful thinking – an hallucination!

After all, we have yet to see the fruition of the 'new storage paradigm' by which MS was going to transform computing known as Cairo! And that was made almost 10 years ago!

And this is precisely the situation we are repeatedly experiencing with regards to another MS product that was over hyped from inception and must now succumb to the pressures and constraints of the real world.

So, if MS wants to avoid this for the umpteenth time, maybe MS should assume a little more responsibility for its own self-made problem of over-reaching and under-delivering product announcements by not make such grandiose pronouncements and overly optimistic release date predictions! Instead, MS should s*** their strategy to announcing only those new technologies or features that they manage to actually get to work. Granted, the list will be MUCH smaller, but this same nonsense might be avoided where we debate ad nauseum as to just who is more stupid - the company who made the absurd claims to begin with (MS), or the folks (Gartner) who simply repeat the absurd over hyped pronouncements, OR the gullible consumers who are continuously amazed and aghast (oh my!), who listen to each camp and are repeatedly disappointed after the SAME nonsense happens for yet Another time!

And just out of curiosity, of those who even know who Gartner is (let alone the other market research firms such as Forrester Group, etc.), how many who are making such grand evaluations of their report (and many are!) have actually read the report??? Yeah, I thought so! But they still feel vindicated in evaluating not only the report but also the companies based upon some third party two sentence synopsis. But then why should this item be any different then the others! Good job guys!

So, what’s the big news here? Another MS feature or release/ship date has been modified? YAWN!

The only ones really affected are the channel merchandisers who were counting on the product delivery to stimulate sales. For everyone else, this news should simply belong to the din of the ambient noise floor.

You don't have to attend cooking school to claim that your meal is late in a restaurant or to notice that part of the entree is missing. The end user doesn't need an understanding of the company or business to form an opinion of the product.

You are right, but what we have here is someone eating mac and cheese with a salad fork and complaining that the mac is not staying on the fork.

This person would be best to know how to use the fork be fore complaining about its use or throwing away the macaroni because the fork doesn't work.

I believe MS tends to make these release pronouncements based on strategic info they get about competitors - not so much based off feedback from QA and dev teams about how close they are to the release.

Case in point - MS knew Boot Camp was coming and it might just sway quite a few people to make the mac switch (e.g. just like I did). So the idea is, release a new beta or build, let it leak around the web, let folks post screenshots, then say "We're almost there! Vista is coming! Please don't go buy a mac".

It's pretty clear to me.

Good, then the observation that should have replaced all of the associated rants is - "Oh, it is delayed again."

Check out Ed Bott's take on Gartner's track record on predictions:

I’ve lost count of the number of times Gartner has been off with similar predictions. This is the same company that called Windows XP “a minor service release for Windows 2000” and predicted that Microsoft would deliver an interim release of Windows (XP Reloaded) in the second half of 2005 (they weren’t the only ones to blow that call, of course). Gartner’s crack analysts, working hand in hand with Microsoft also were the first to report that Microsoft's enterprise server products would be released in late 2001 under the name Windows 2002. Oops. They got that right except for the name and the date.

Of course, it's hard to go wrong predicting a delay in any release of Microsoft software. But this one doesn't seem grounded in too many cold, hard facts. So let’s call this "prediction" by its real name: a WAG. Or maybe a SWAG.

I wish news sites would quit posting this so-called "delay". MS has officially said that its wrong and they are not behind schedule.

I finally broke down and got a new iMac. I figured it'd be safe knowing I could install boot camp and pop on XP. I love it and it'll certainly keep my attention well beyond the release of Vista. After using my mac for a week or so, I just don't see why Windows even exists (and I am a pro-Microsoft developer).

"After using my mac for a week or so, I just don't see why Windows even exists (and I am a pro-Microsoft developer)."
You just answered your own question: People working with MS software make $$$$$.

Welcome aboard. I have used Windows as a consumer/intermediate user for many years and I made the full switch last year. I only use my pc to act as a file server; everything else is done on the mac. I hope you enjoy it as much as I have!

Microsoft is the largest OSX developer as well.
Hope you "pro-MS anti-Mac" folks aren't too confused by this.

I think you may have misunderstood mjm01010101's statement.

Microsoft doesn't develop any major developer tool for OSX --> Therefore, .NET programmers won't be coding under OSX any time soon --> Therefore, no $$$ to be made.

I think that's what he meant.

Sorry for the misunderstanding, I wasn't debating his point - after all, if you want to reach the largest percentage market share, it certainly makes sense to write for the largest market!

My point in general was simply to add that for all the pro-MS folks that feel OSX is such a threat, MS is the largest developer for OSX as as well. So instead of merely seeing OSX as a threat, or as a 'non-threat that they seem to spend so much time obsessing about' ;-)) they might view it as MS does - as another market offering additional opportunity and choice, and another market where MS makes money - something few of the 'pro-MS/anti-Mac crowd' here have chosen to do...

I'm about ready to make the switch too.

I'm a Network Analyst and I work on Cisco stuff and servers all day.

I'm sick and tired of Microsoft and their Genuine Advantage BS. I have valid copies and I still hate the crap.

I actually have no interest in Vista at all. I don't plan on running it ever.
Gonna get an iMac soon to use at home for good.

Simple. It's widely used and there is more software available for it.

Not to mention that it works well and is easy to use. Same can be said about Mac's too.

See here we go again.. You people just persist in bashing MS don't you? Everything they do is stupid or they are considered clowns...

you people have no real knowledge about how Business really works, I think ALL of you are some incapacitated, overworked, hourly paid losers with nothing better to do than to slam big business, specifically MS.

This is wonderful. I think you ALL should form your own self help group.

I would like to see ANY of you accel at a business, and we can redicule you, because apparently none of you have Macro Economics or Micro Economics.

MS is a standard company. They are the target because you use their products and that makes you some self imposed expert on their business practice, why? Because you actually use a product of theirs, and that makes you somehow smarter than they.

You don't have a clue. You b**** whine moan stand in judgement, and you have no concept of ecomonic principles, and what's worse, you people spread it like its the gospel..

Pathetic. One day, maybe you will outgrow this, and your precious liarfox and Linux will be treated with the same respect, by your offspring. I can't wait for that to happen, I only wish I could have each of your contact info, so I can nag, nag, nag until you are dead 10 years from now..

Perhaps you could switch to decaf... just for a few days?

;-)

LOL talk about pot/kettle

I don't bash MS for no reason (or any other company for that matter), and I don't spout of about big business sucks and they are ready for the loonie bin, so WTF are you talking about?

I will point out that in cases of browser wars and search engines, I will demonstrate that none of them are perfect, and they ALL suffer from the same defects, that's where you people falter. You don't seem to realize, its perspective...

Umm, I don't touch coffee, drugs, sodas ( since my doctor told me I could get diabetes), milk, or anything stronger than Tea. I don't do drugs, or any smoking, no bad stuff.

Am I prude, no, just don't like it and I have low tolerance. I am just getting real tired of the MS bashing day in and day out, its totally monotonous, and there is no reason for it. Its just herd and group frenzy talking.. It only takes 1 person to get everyone's panties in a bunch over stupid stuff.

MS is running a business, and they do it very well. I think they managed to build an empire using ONLY their products, so how bad do you think their products are? They manage to keep growing every year, they make people a s***load of money, and stockholders are tickled pink.

Evidently, you minorities have a problem with that. Well tough. Get your own damn company, and let's see how well off you are in 25 years.

I doubt you could be over a half billion dollar company.. Its a LOT tougher than you give MS credit for.

Their products are good.

The MAIN problem I have is people don't follow directions.

HCL. What is that for? Hardware Compatibility List.

Take your machine, get ALL the EXACT part numbers. If even 1, just 1 piece of hardware isn't on that list, then you don't have a compliant machine. Similar products isn't the same as products that are SPECIFICALLY support on the HCL. That means MS cannot account for driver support.

Software, there is a huge disparity between programming the right way and programming just to make things work. You follow the guidelines MS sets in a standard, and your software is approved, then everything is golden, but no, people buy whatever the hell they want, put it cheap a** machines, expect everything to be all peaches and cream.. well I am sorry, but you are living in a dream world.

You want things to work? Stick to the HCL, strictly. I don't have hardware on the HCL, but then I don't complain about how much MS sucks like you people seem to gloat every chance you get, and its your own damn fault.

MS gives directions, standards, and a list of approved hardware (6000+ components) yet people manage to use a couple that aren't listed.. gee... who's damn fault is that?

I suppose MS should test EVERY piece of hardware just to make you happy, huh? In the automobile world they have OEM parts (parts that are manufactured spec, and parts that have been TESTED and APPROVED to work) then they have aftermarket. Some work, some don't, if you use the, guess what?!?! You VOID your warranty, and why do you think that is?

Well gee you think it MIGHT have something do with liability? If they gave every one carte blanche to modify, change, or do things willie nillie, GM, Ford, Chrysler, Honda, etc.. they are supposed to support you?

GET REAL.

You use what MS has deems acceptable, you will not have a problem. We have servers, we have Dell machines. ALL of them have up times around 200-400 days, depending on which one does what, they don't crash, why? Because *I* took the time to insure their proper support and spec.

So, I have a background in this arena, EVERY time a user says they ahve a problem. what are you using? AOL, Trillian, I won't even mention Firefox, that seems to be fine. We have Linux Unix boxes, they are fine too... but don't give me this damn song and dance about how Unix sits in a corner and never needs a single moments attention and make me beleive that MS has aaaaaalllllllll these problems. Sorry, won't cut it.

Use the damn HCL. READ. Follow instructions, quit using the crap software, use MS products (which we are about 97-99%) and we don't have ANY issues.. until a user gets a hold of it..

I will bet you a dollar to a donut, they put something on their machine, that CAUSED the problem... And you people want to blame MS because you introduced something they can't control.

Yeah, that's realistic.

Would you be so kind as to enlighten this group about how business works? share some economic principles? Maybe you would convert some of the nay-sayers back to Microsoft.

...or you could just keep criticizing without backing up your smack.

I'm a Bachelor of economics, a Bachelor of science and a soon to be Master of science (last two both in Real Estate Management). I've had my fair share of courses about economics, law and management. So don't go saying all of us don't have real knowledge about how Business really works.

As you probably know - companies that operate in the foreground are the first companies that are gonna be hit - always has been, always will be. Look at Google. They're now going to face the same problems that MS has had for years and probably Yahoo! will profit from this.

But you're right about bashing MS just because it's MS is plain stupid. But it's just as stupid to defend MS on all fronts.
It's just like you say. MS understands economics very well. All the more reason to keep an eye on them.

And at last about liarfox and Linux. That they also have security holes is something that can't be denied. But fact is that those security holes are in a lesser number and are patched (far) more quickly than Windows or IE. This is not MS bashing but are clear facts.

Microsoft is an evil souless company without a shread of moral or ethical principles. And your thoughtless foul-mouth rants make your character equally clear.

Nah, you just come in here and insult people for no reason what so ever. Most of your posts have nothing to back them up, maybe 1 in 10 has some meat to them with something to really say. The rest are just pure bile or unsubstantiated conjecture. You seem to love making wild sweeping assumptions of everyone who doesn't agree with you, usually those assumptions are covered in worthless insults and temper tantrums. In short, you have all the courtesy and etiquette of an angsty 14 year old boob.

Why dosn't MS just admit it & say, ok, We're delaying till 2010?

Just to finish, & if it comesout before that they'll get a nice pat on the back for being early.

...

"Vienna's gonna ROCK!
don't knock it, it'll
blow you away"

...

This is a "the check's in the mail" thing.

You're dreaming about Vienna ...when Vista
has been delayed YET AGAIN !

Microsoft is getting to be like the federal
government: It can't reform itself.

But, who knows ? If Vienna ever comes out
(release date: 2020) maybe it'll have some
of the features dropped from Vista.

...

The Computer Rodent

...

ffs use the "Post a Reply" button for once. i'm so tired of seeing (not reading) fragmented posts from you.

come on betanews ... let us block individual users comments!

"Gartner says that Vista is much more of a technological improvement over its predecessor, meaning it could take much longer."

Prove it, I'm sure with some extra programming that XP could support the new Direct-X standard as well. Windows Vista is bloated, and will be far from perfect. It may be solid, but what's a solid software product with bloat? Sure, it's done well for Azureus, but this goes beyond that. 800 megs of memory for the sake of an assanine 3d GUI is rediculous, they better have an option to disable that, otherwise I will support IBM all the more in their move to Linux.

Haven't read the news? IBM(Lenovo?) will not adopt Vista for any of it's machines, and it stopping it's licensing with Microsoft in September.

Also, HDCP sucks.

1.) You seem to think DirectX is the be-all end all of Vista.

2.) You claim it takes 800MB of RAm for the GUI.

3.) You apparently don't know the GHUI (Aero) can be disabled.

One can surmize from the above, that you are, in fact, clueless.

Good-day.

How many delays are too many? Microsoft should do away with release time tables then. Why keep hypeing it up and telling people it will be release at this time then backtrack 12+ times?

Microsoft should stop looking at other compines and focus on their own and release products in a timely fashion.

Bill Gates said a long time about every 3 years we should upgrade windows. How can we when they can't get it out the door?

Hey, the more delays the better in my point of view. This all just means that they are taking their time with this OS, and not rushing it out loaded with bugs and problems. Kinda like what Sony is doing with the PS3. Making sure everything is "perfect" before releasing the final product.

"Kinda like what Sony is doing with the PS3. Making sure everything is "perfect" before releasing the final product."

I sure hope what you say ISN'T true!
With the significant systemic internal problems Sony has experienced, not to mention approaching a 4 year delay in shipping BluRay, if they wait to have a near perfect product we will never see it in our lifetimes!

On the other hand..........., hey, I can see the upside to this!

Ya know if I was Billy Gates I'd drive over to this research company and do some serious spray painting on their walls.

I'm actually looking forward to Vista. They've been working on this damn thing for over 6 years now. So it better be some Star Trek like OS.

As a Linux user I get pissed off when there's no new release after a week. At least with Linux, every couple of weeks you can see some minor and even major changes in the OS. You don't have to wait 7 years to be disappointed.

SUSE LINUX Rulez!!!

once a month, MS releases minor updates to their OSes as well. These patches are the same as Linux updates.

Dude, I'm talking about Alpha's, Beta's and RC's not patches.

MSDN subscribers can see ALL windows updates, Alpha's Beta's and RC's. Just because YOU don't have access to them, doesn't mean they don't exist, linux scrub.

MS has multiple builds a day for their OS...

I agree with the commenters that Microsoft should take their time and make a good product than rushing the release date.

That is until you realize that all of the releases from NT 3.5 were beta tests for XP with consumers being the unwitting beta testers (although Big Business knows better...see how long it takes them to adopt Vista after Microsoft stops blowing deadlines...two years minimum guaranteed or around the 2009-2010 time-frame.)

And before you think I'm some Mac or Linux troll my first "PC" was an IBM System 390 with two 8 inch floppies. I have no love for Windows but I use it because its the only game in town for the majority of apps that I use.

...

Ha ! What did the PC Rat tell you !

It takes Bill Gates a dozen committee meetings,
and 16 months, just to tie his shoe.

Microsoft is a hapless giant unable to accomplish
much of anything in a timely fashion.

WinVista ought to have come out a couple years
after WinXP. And -right now- we SHOULD be
waiting for the next version of Windows ~after~
Vista !

...

The Computer Rodent

...

These clowns are already dreaming about something else called VIENNA! Longhorn/Vista still isn't out of beta. Maybe it will never happen because Micro$oft is geting ahead of themselves. This bloated beauracracy takes forever to get things done. I am reminded of big government...

Vienna's gonna ROCK!

don't knock it, it'll blow you away (literally, they're arming this one)...

That's called forecasting. They have been doing this from a long time ago, Windows 95 was called Chicago, before that NT was called Cairo. Then Server was announced during the Windows 95 beta..

This is a common tradition..

Many companies have a timeline of projects, that's called "projection". They outline their company goals, they want to have X product out by X time, and Y product out by Y time.. Z.. etc..

This is common in the business world. Sun does the same thing, Novell, Unix, even the Linux community have planned releases beyond what's currently out.

yeah you're right ... that whole xbox360 beating sony to market a year in advance didn't happen.

in fact i could go on and on about the deadlines they do make and the scope of putting together an operating system that runs across so much hardware but you refer to yourself in the third person, make yours post obnoxiously long with a bunch of "..." and line breaks and can't master the "Post a reply" button. do i really need to waste anymore time?

November 2006: Release half cooked beta
November 2007: Release SP1 {fix some bugs}
November 2008: Release SP2 {finally complete the beta}
November 2009: Release SP3 {fix all the bugs from SP2}

November 2010 MS delays release of Vista R2..lol.

Its quite natural, Microsoft had repeatedly proved its a company which is not reliable.They have no integrity.

If you don't have anything useful to say just don't post.

Thank you spef for posting something worth reading! A discussion of the topic rather than the age old Microsoft is evil comments (real original) would be refreshing.

Except for the merchandising aspect (the selling of new software and hardware), I really don't see a major issue here for the Windows consumer, simply because there seems to be little to no pressing necessity to upgrade to Vista. Rather the issue is simply whether MS will meet an artificial and abstract release date. And as many have expressed, MS would do well to offer a more refined and finished product then to rush a product featuring an increased number of bugs and incompatibilities.

What will be interesting is to see if others such as Apple can leverage this time to market advantage with their new release of OSX,new Intel based hardware, as well as the forthcoming introduction of still new higher end machines this fall to substantially increase their market share with their hardware.

Well put. I agree with your statements.

I think if Vista is delayed again then Steve Ballmar should step down and Bill Gates should have to explain why he can't lead the software team to release products.

I understand Windows is a major product but still Micosoft should be run and manage better then it is. Microsoft seem to cares more about crushing Google and Firefox then working on Windows.

This may be why a lot of people may jump on the MacIntel machine.

I agree. Better late, and good, then soon and broken. Personally, I have very very few problems with XP. The only one i have is the occasional PMD (physical memory dump) which rarely happens (on the order of 3 months). It doesn't complain when i leave my computer on for weeks at a time, and its quite easy to use.

So, again i say: Wait on the release and make a quality product. (is that possible with MS? :-P)

You should *never* be getting a Blue screen. If you are, there is something wrong with your setup. (likely device drivers or hardware)

It's silly to put up with that every x months, let alone 3.

Agreed as well. Let's wait and be assured that it is relatively if not completely free of bumps.

Agreed. I would like to upgrade for fun when it ships, but won't have a need. My XP is flawless and love the Media Center functionality. (I don't use IE, which probably explains why my XP runs so well)

1 out of 10 times I can't come out of hibernation or sleep. It happens on two completely different systems (100% different hardware even CPU brands and memory speeds lol).

I can't complain though, with Linux on this thing it NEVER comes out of hibernation HEH!

Definitely driver related. As soon as I turfed all these WHQL drivers out the window and installed hacked ones, as well as gutting almost everything from driver.cab, all my BSODs went right away!

I've found the same thing on my system, but placing hacked XP system files into Win2k leaves Windows 2000 hibernating and unhibernating flawelessly, even if XP can't do it itself.

Since when does some 3rd party group like Gartner get executive decision rights for deciding when Microsoft will or won't ship a product?

I'll continue to say it-- I wish news media outlets (BetaNews included) would stick to reporting facts, not rumor.

Ahh, they only report selected facts, that suit their biased reporting.

For example, I note with interest, that the $399 PS3 price story was skipped, I believe because it's not their beloved Xbox360, and it may hurt sales of a product from an American company...

Yeah I agree with this group, we don't need no stinkin' Vista!

I like my XP, its been perfect. No reboots, no security issues, IE 7 is good (waiting patiently for LiarFox fan's to say something about this), and all my software (finally!) support XP.

I don't know about anyone else, but I don't want to go through this process again with ANOTHER OS...

That's life. Otherwise you'd still be using Windows 1.0. Just don't be an early adopter.

No reboots? 90% of their security patches require reboots!

I agree too. They worked long and hard to get XP right, and then fix it, and improve upon it, and I'm settled in. Why exactly do I need something new? I mean really? Why? It's not an app, it's just the OS. And XP is getting to the point where it's so friendly and rock solid, they'd have to come out with something incredibly USEFUL in Vista -- that can't be done in XP -- to get me to go through all the trouble of switching. I'm not talking whizz bang neato, look at that, oh wow it LOOKS nice ... it has to be something that makes my life EASIER. So far from everything I've read, all Vista adds is a pretty front end and a lot of DRM (which I DON'T want).

Oh, yeah, and I'm a FireFox fan, but yes ... IE7 is really nice.

You have to look at it this way ... without FireFox nipping Microsoft in the butt, they never would have come out with IE7. FireFox, Linux, et all is GOOD for Microsoft and us users, no matter which one we use.

Actually, I kinda hope they break a lot of compatibility. Keeping around all the crap necessary to support legacy programs is frankly beginning to piss me off.

No compatibility mode. No 16-bit layer. Kill it. If they want to run 16-bit apps, they can install Windows 3.11, for God's sake.

There's an idea. Allow users to reboot the computer into Windows 3.11 "Classic" mode. lmao...that'd be good.

"It's not an app, it's just the OS."

So, you're saying that all great apps are 100% coded by hand these days? If so, let's just go back to DOS 4.0! My point is that Vista will offer cool new capabilities for programmers. Saying it is "just the OS" makes it sound like it does very little.

Like everyone its all about choice, if you like xp then stick with it, i know of plenty who use 2000pro. I will more than likely use it and since i have a powerfull pc it will more than likely use it.

Its all about choice. and the fact that while xp is good, its not perfect. MS wont earn a living if it does not inovate and improve on things and to some degree this can only go so far with updates and service packs. Sometimes you just have to break the mold in the way of progress.

Saying it is "just the OS" makes it sound like it does very little

Exactly windows is not just an operating system it is virtualy the complete computing exerience out of the box.

I am only looking towards the future and to see what else is there. Much like wanting to buy a new car. Your right, XP works fine, but staring at the same thing day-in day-out does draw on my brain. I am looking for the new one. It will bring more headache as well as happiness in a business/profession that I enjoy.

Gartner has become a farce in the industry, selling their "results" to whomever pays, much like political consultants. The longer Vista is delayed the better IMO. Get it right, take your time; XP is working just fine.

Yup, I agree with you, take your time making Vista!

Do we have a way of measuring Gartner's accuracy in predicting this stuff? They've been doing this a while, surely they have some numbers they can show us.

Microsoft is slipping--and again, the EU and Federal Courts didn't fix them--competition did.

I wish the EU could understand that concept. Or worse--maybe they already do!

I'd rather see MS produce a quality product and take the time to do it as well. Win2k is probably their best windows product to date, and it would be great to have a good comprehensive driver database for this new version as well.

I'm willing to wait for the quality product.

I won't buy it if it doesn't reach my quality standards. Win2k did, but XP fell somewhat short...

Kramy whats your point?

XP is more secure easier to use.
Windows XP builds on the stability and strength of the Windows NT/2000.
Start Saving

i agree with kramy, win2k is the most stable windows yet, i still use it

The problem Microsoft has now is that as much as everyone jokes about their OS being crappy, and prey to viruses, spyware, and so on, by the time they reached Windows 2000 and XP (to a lesser extent) they'd essentially made a half-decent OS.

Given 95% (roughly) of the OS market belongs to them, their biggest competitior is suprisingly not Apple or Linux, but actually themselves.

People are quite prepared to carry on using W2K and XP for a LOT longer from what I can see. The only way they're going to get people to upgrade is by doing forced upgrades via OEM PCs (hence the "stop selling naked PCs" stuff), tied in with yet another HUGE marketting campaign costing millions of dollars to try and glamour people into upgrading.

Does big business need Vista? Not really. They might go doo-dad over some fancy bit in the new version of Office, but Vista doesn't seem to have any compelling draw for a business to do a major upgrade and pay out yet again...

XP is a sugarcoating of candy ontop that all the little kiddies love, but then SYSTEM(the parent) slaps their hand when they do something they're not suppoed to.

I dislike the extra security features of XP. It has all this driver protection and stuff...well, tell you what - if I'm stupid enough to install a driver that has malicious intent, just let it screw me over.

I have two or three people IM me every day asking how to do things in XP that work flawlessly in Win2k. In the end, they revert to just letting the built-in programs handle and fix things, rather than forcing it to work their way.

So, for me...Windows File Protection off - Admin access - Silent driver installs - hundreds of programs installed. Yes, that's my machine, and if it dies I have noone to blame but myself.

It hasn't died yet though, and it has only BSOD'd once(when I asked it to run 66mhz FSB: 2.25ghz -> 825mhz). I installed XP briefly, but it kept blue-screening when I tried to install or run programs, so now I stick with Win2k.

Edit: I find Win2k easier to use. XP lacks certain things that I use daily. My XP CD is also apparently impossible to network. :-/

Yes, Mr (Over)Rijp is at it again.....by all logic, Vista seems to delay to mid 2007 YES you cannot convince me otherwise! Now i was intending to by a laptop for on the road work.....since the specs are still not set, i wont buy a "Vista Ready" machine, if they exist, so will be going out for an Apple.....oh have i ogled them so many times, now i'm pursuaded!

BTW, low and behold, I walk around in a discount shop where they ask 489 Euro's (USD 635) for WinXP Pro, something which is 5 years old. So whats Vista going to cost?