I profoundly disagree with the negative comments. If you want to make money in IT you have two related options:

1 - You understand that your job is to solve business problems. That means build systems that do what business needs, are adaptable and maintainable.
2 - You have a great idea how to use technology to address a common problem in a novel efficient way and start your own biz (eventually having the guys in #1 work for you)
3 - (yes, 3...) You don't care about money and find satisfaction in research and the resources you may have access to in such a capacity.

Either requires your ability to analyze and solve problems with the best available means. (That btw excludes most fanbois on this forum from getting anywhere unless they are actually vested in the products the defend).

IT work is not boring if you have the right skills. In a senior capacity you many be designing a system that directly affects millions of people or is processing billions of dollars (or whatever currency). You have access to insane amounts of data that can be mined for gaining knowledge about society. You can be working on cutting edge AI systems assisting humans in areas not previously accessible. You may be working on defense projects keeping some nations safe or destroying others. There is no limit to creativity if you've got it in you.

That said except for my 1st job (at IBM, who I forgive the pathetic salary for investing heavily into training) I never had to put up with single digit pay raises. While holding teams to high standards people keep calling back for more with bonuses that finance anything up to cars. We are not talking about percentage increases of income over time but multiplying it and making orders of magnitude more than what one set out with as a student's goal. I am not saying this to show off (I couldn't care less about the opinion of ppl who are proud to own a game system or use a particular OS) but to encourage those who might be put off by all the negative comments following this article.

If you've got it in you you *will* have to work hard in your early years to prove yourself (and enjoy doing it in the later), which is maybe not the right thing for the current generation cultivating a sense of entitlement without input (explaining the decline imho). There are great monetary and social rewards waiting. Only - you will have to deal with the guys posting negative below. Someone needs to take care of maintenance and support to keep things running after all...

Lastly - start by focusing on *doing* things instead of wasting your time on forums. I'll take that advice myself for the rest of the day... ;)

Very well said...finally someone that actually understand what it takes to make it in IT. :)

Sounds good.

You obviously weren't in Global Services. ;-) You know - the area with extremely high training and skill requirements where professional hires with higher salary and skill levels were seen as liabilities compared to contract and college new hires and where they, and later almost all, were subsequently outsourced to India...

Those "360s" sure came in handy then, didn't they?

You also fail to mention the average lifecycle of a technology. And you speak as if there is some linear skill progression. There isn't. The average life cycle is down to ~2 years now before you either are retrained or you are effectively obsolete (but oh! You have such a wealth of character building stories with which to marvel your colleagues!)
And pray you chose the right options as you anticipated market changes - of the several competing paths - lest you sit on your posterior wondering why you are an overly educated dinosaur and why the foreign kids from the vo-tech schools now have your job - unless you decided to maneuver into an outsourcing project management position!

I would love to push the idea that such character building exercises necessarily result in wonderful and valuable experiences and that the future is so bright. ..unless you are near , say, 50 and the cost/benefit of benefits, healthcare, etc. make you a statistical liability due to actuarial tables - regardless of your career history where you never missed a day - even if it meant foregoing your kids activities and your being sick, etc. etc. etc.! You know - all that character stuff...

And its neat to listen to the mantra that you are your job - and that is from whence you derive your meaning! Whoa! Now there is a load of crap!

I would hope that a few here are a bit MORE than their job.

The fact is, IT has been, and continues to be commoditized. Those who FAIL to understand this will be sitting on their posteriors lamenting the 'study hard and stay the course' lectures as they try to figure out what they should have in fact done - regardless of how many whiz-bang ways you know or resoling a shoe and the fascinating stories you can tell about the trials and tribulations of developing such insights.

I agree with your assessment of what the business SHOULD be about - and I also UTTERLY agree with your opinion regarding the idiocy of "the opinion of ppl who are proud to own a game system or use a particular OS" - as this perspective is a sure GUARANTY and indication that one misses the point! And the predominance of the focus of so many on this forum in this respect is a very scary indicator where business process implications and trends are ignored at the expense of the wants and desires of fantasies of desktop fanboys.

The fact is, simply looking at IT from a myopic project to project POV is a very limited perspective, and you are almost sure to miss the larger trend necessary to persist in this developing market.

And in an even larger and more important sense, simply knowing IT is a sure way to fail in IT. Oh sure, you will be a very fancy plumber (in an industry where they change technologies and obsolete you in a flash).

But if one fails to understand the larger BUSINESS implications of IT - and how IT is simply a facilitator for doing business and NOT an end in itself, you are doomed to failure. IT is not the goal of a business. IT is a cost! Unless it directly reduces costs and increases income it is a LIABILITY. And the mission of many areas of the business are specifically oriented to reduce this cost! Hence IT is a liability. Unless you can understand how IT can serve to enable business and its goals, you will have trouble.

And this forum aptly demonstrates that most lack insight into this aspect of the BUSINESS of IT and the BUSINESS OF BUSINESS - as is characterized by the insane debate over 'my OS is better than your OS'. A perspective almost guaranteed to get you canned if not simply marginalized in an enterprise setting.

Sure you can succeed. But a larger perspective is necessary other than the focus on some desktop system - regardless of how rad it may be! As I can guarantee you, it is about as insignificant a consideration in IT as it gets.

And awareness of such issues as IA policies and procedures, best business practices, and a better understanding of the business of business - especially that of YOUR business where you might be working (and if you aren't aware of the focus of your CFO and where they need to cut expenses and grow revenue is a sure sign of this! - not what desktop OS you have!) you are destined to remain simply an expendable functionary.

Ha...the constant superiority complex of foxfyre is still shining through...

Hey listen, I don't mind all these people leaving IT...leaves more opportunity for me. So, preach on, brotha!:)

Sorry.

Here, I'll put it in language you can better relate to:

My Window box rules, your Mac sux. My Zune rules, your iPod sux. My whatever locked, overpriced and underfeatured cell phone with the umpteen year contract rules, and your iPhone sux. (Reverse for the other fanboys!)

Oh, and I almost forgot the other lost souls:
I can't believe anyone would get upset that i copied and redistributed 1000 copies of a CD or a file I got from another guy who got (read: "stole" - as in "without compensation to the legitimate owner") a copy of a file via some P2P network! Don't they know that music is public domain and that I am entitled! The meanies!

The Cliff's Notes version of the forum... LOL!

LOL...preach on superiouly wise one who hates his career, preach on brotha!! LOL.

What really happened fox? Did you get fired after not patching anything for the day light savings time changes because you thought NTP had you covered? :)

Hates his career?

LOL!

I just fear for those who haven't a clue regarding the real business of IT and myopically think its coding or arguing which OS is best - something that is wantonly in evidence here.

And who does coding (yecch) or admin work? Those are entry level jobs. As was suggested above, one might want to set their sights just a BIT higher than simply being a gopher or a technician. Besides, IT is simply an enabling technology. It pays to have a few more fundamental skills in fundamental sciences and business. Grease mmonkeys don't drive the race cars.

Besides, our backend systems were fine without any freaking out at all over local time changes. And yes, NTP DID indeed address ALL the issues which had been identified as soon as the changes were announced.

Our systems are scattered and linked all over the globe in HA-GEO configurations. Local time zones and multiple time changes/resets all over the world don't present a problem at all. Tied to an atomic time server and the parameters manually defined, they changed just like any other update (for those referenced to local time).

You don't tie filesystems concurrently accessed by distributed systems to local timezones when they are distributed across several continents.You see, you 'generally' don't want distributed concurrently accessed resources having different time stamps. LOL!

But you missed the point then, and you Still miss the point. A DST change is no different than any other manual time reset - if you have a system that supports it. Windows...well, that's YOUR problem.

So not everyone was running about in a panic, unlike so many others who ran around like chickens with their heads cut off in a tither at the last minute waiting for someone ELSE to solve their conundrum! Oh, but then you guys are using the 'big'(sic) enterprise systems aren't you? How's that Win2003 Server workin' for you? LOL!

But then some of us don't spend out time worrying about desktop systems and whether or not the iPod or Zune matter either...nor the myriad oh so complex conundrums that result from such important matters.

On the other hand, if my life did indeed consist or worrying about such mundane matters and if I did sit around and worry about such concerns, life would suck.

But its a lot more fun ascertaining what roll IT will play, rather than simply being a glorified technician. And if you haven't figured it out from the posts yet, the technicians are the expendable commodities.

Ooohkay... Thought of popping in for a look what this turned into by lunch time and now you respond with an even longer pamphlet than the original post.

You know... In essence you seem to be agreeing/saying the same thing. I tried to spin a positive note (a personal 1st on BN!) so what makes you so angry?

There are two points I'd like to address:

1 - The two year life cycle is spot on. However, the essence of IT does not change, just the tools do. Significant experience paired with the ability to stay on top of new trends is a true asset. There is no revolution (no way big biz would sign up for it) but steady evolution.

2 - I am not sure where in my post you picked up the mantra 'you are your job'. If you are successful and happy in any job it is most likely matching your character. To be successful you have to have a certain passion and drive, which is not sustainable without finding personal satisfaction. However - true success comes from being different enough from the average to make a positive ...difference.

(btw. between you and me... I was in GS and deal a lot with teams in India to this day...)

I think we agree on much more than we might disagree!

Your post served as a springboard to both amplify a few ideas and to present perhaps a different perspective on the same thing - more as a foil to address many of the attitudes that seem so prevalent on this forum that you indeed made mention (eg which desktop OS matters! - hint folks: they DON'T! And I fully expect you to see more virtualized desktops aka Windows via Citrix and various thin terminals.)

But the most important point was the different perspective offered - that IT must be perceived from the POV of "what is your business?" And that is MUCH different that the notion that IT is a self-existing technology that exists simply for playing games or for some subject of fanzine adoration and worship. IT is a tool - a facilitator of some larger function. Not an end in itself! And the more closely you can utilize IT to facilitate this business will result one's greater success.

And in the end, no one is going to ask "So what desktop OS do you like best?" In fact, the most successful installations will make such a question superfluous.

;-)

I dunno Fox...you somehow assumed I work with desktop/servers and based your entire essay based on that assumption...if you were right, maybe I'd have a response...but you're not, so...sorry if you wasted your time with that paper. :)

You may be offended, but I don't care what you work on. I have no way of knowing and no one specified the platform nor the configuration.

My response was targeted for our particular environment, as I found so many folks' conundrum rather humorous. Especially as they were busy whining in the same sentence in which they claimed their platform was so superior.

The fact is, for many platforms, just like with the Y2K 'crisis', the problem didn't exist. For those of whom it did....my heart goes out to you for working with a systm that lacks flexibility and relies upon canned one shot solutions.

For us, ntpd (along with a user defined script, as needed) will modify any setting needed. Coupled with filesystems referenced to a shared standard rather than some local isolated desktop system - and the problem was never a problem.

But when the Windows world panics, its assumed that the rest of the world panics as well. Sort of like Y2K - where UNIX never had a Y2K issue - imagined or real.

Unfortunately it took me 3 weeks of working with Intel's management to explain to the erudite folks at Intel that the problem never effected their RS6000SP. Counting seconds from epoch?...what's that. But they were more freaked over the use of a capacitance voltage backup rather than a battery for a system that lives powered 24/7/365! Such technology simply confounds the desktop mentality.

It certainly makes sense to me. The field isn't all it was cracked up to be when I was first looking at college. Now after my Master's degree, I don't earn a penny more than before I got it - of course I haven't changed jobs either, but where I live (boonies) I work at the only company with a respectable IT staff. I would have to move at least two hours away in order to find something equivalent and then my cost of living would also increase.

The thing is, now we are starting to have trouble hiring entry level IT people. New hires in IT make more than I do and with significantly less experience and less education. They keep dangling the carrot for me, so I stay, but it won't be much longer unless I get a bite.

I see this whole thing as just a balancing act. If the market really does become short on IT workers then salaries will adjust to attract those good IT people who decided to work on the manufacturing line or drive a truck because they could make more money there. They'll also have to adjust the work load down for the same reason. Also, they'll give good existing workers salary boosts when people right out of college have to be offered more compensation in order to attract them.

Of course, when all of that happens colleges will adjust by turning out more IT people than the industry needs and we'll end up with 60+ hour weeks and less adjusted for overtime hourly pay than the union line worker again so all those IT people will become disillusioned and end up working other jobs.

I used to be a web developer and made about 40k per year back in 2003. Now I'm a street striper (you know the lines on the street? Yeah, I paint those). I've been in the industry for 3 1/2 years and I'll pull over 65k this year. Plus, all the education required for this career is on-the-job. Meaning that while you were compiling debt over the 4 to 6 years to get your degree I was earning money getting mine.
That's not to say its a great career. Its dangerous, you're subject to varying weather conditions (although we don't work in the rain) you have to work nights a lot, and you're treated like a piece on machinery rather than a human being.
Now, I just use my computer for information, communication and (get this), fun.

No offense...but, as a street striper, what are you ambitions and goals?? You'll pull $65k this year, what's your career goal in this job? Sr. street striper? Does that exist? Manager? Then what? $65k now, 5 years from now what will it be...$75k? $80k in management, maybe $85k? What's your ceiling?

I don't know, I don't mean to put you down, but there's alot of growth in the IT field, and that's a big draw. I made $33k when I first started in 2000...I make a hell of a lot more now, and I won't lie I had to work very hard to get where I am now, a lot of studying, a lot of pissed of girlfriends, a lot of BS I had to put up with. But now I'm doing pretty well and I don't really have any complaints.

A lot of people think IT is easy money, and when that "easy money" doesn't come in the first 2 or 3 years, when they realize it takes a lot of work to get a respectable salary/position...they give up, those are the people that tell their friends not to take up IT in school. I know people that have been doing desktop/helpdesk for 10 years! THOSE are the people that tell their friends not to take up IT in school...who wants to do that for the rest of their lives?? Take anybody in a respectable position, and the story changes.

Contrary to what one poster said earlier...you CAN get a job right out of school, MANY companies are hiring graduates. Not only are they cheaper, but they're usually more eager and are easier to train and shape into the employee you want....and if they stick through it, the money will come.

Ambitions? hahaha. You work to make money. You make money to live, to buy food. That's it, that's all. What kind of goals you need? Promotions? You need that kind of motivation to work? Please..

IT jobs suck. They really do. It's either very boring or you're always under massive pressure, you gotta be like 5 guys in 1. You need to learn stuff at home to stay on track. Believe me, I know what it is and I'm getting frankly very tired of it. I wish I could just find something else. They say IT jobs are well paid? Yeah right. They probably don't know what a good pay is.

Desktop/helpdesk jobs are the only accessible jobs out there. If you want a better job, you usually have to get one of these and then hope for some opportunity. Who wants to do that over and over again? Unless you know something rare (in demand), you're doomed. I've asked a few HR managers and they told me: "You wouldn't believe how many resumes we get for IT positions." So yeah, if you're lucky, you might find a good opportunity. Even better if your social network is like Paris Hilton's one.

We'll talk about it when you lose your job and have to start all over again, learn the new stuff, what they currently need.. Why? Because lots of people will be applying for the same job and there's always a few guys who know what they want.

Who wants to be manager anyway? Not everyone for sure. Some guys, like me, just want to make money and not deal with all the bulls*** in the company. You go to work, then you go home in peace.

Oh, and I forgot all the companies abusing IT employees. You're being paid 40K a year, but hey.. don't tell anyone, but you'll work 50-60 hours a week. No overtime paid.

Yea...you work to make money...motivated people (who are actually smart) get promotions, promotions bring more money.

I guess that's where we're different...i see myself making a lot more money in the future...where as you're content making what you make forever...at least you're making money right:)

If I was being paied $40k/year...I would have found a new career a long time ago...:)

I've been in the industry for over 8 years. When students ask me, "should I go into Computer Science?" I repeatedly answer, "NO! and here's why:".

* Even with high entry level salaries, you will only end up being paid 10-15/hr.
* Because of the long hours and unrealistic expectations of "how long a business stakeholder thinks something should take" you'll always have to put in the "extra hours".
* When most skilled workers getting paid overtime after 40/hrs, you won't but you'll be expected to work 60+ hours to finish a task that wasn't scoped/planned correctly.
* The enjoyment you experienced programming in University will fade quickly and you'll wish you went into a true profession.
* Finally, a masters degree only gets you 65K. You should be being paid over 90K for that level of education (debt).

computer science/engineering != Information Technology / MIS.

Very different topics, and at my college, computer science was a much more difficult cirriculum.

MIS is more of the application of technologies to business environments.

CS includes all the skills of MIS but adds a ton more like digital logic, circuit design, descrete mathematics, artficial intelligence, etc.

CS is not limited to the business world, you can make a lot of money in R&D in many industries, get into building expert systems, computer models, etc. Plus, you can easily fall back on to IT if necessary.

IMO - CS gives you a much more fundamental understanding of computing technologies that allows you to easily adapt as new technologies come and go vs. MIS which is more of the application of today's technology applied in the busiess world.

I never took a class in college on how to use computers. The closest thing I got to learning about how to use an OS was in Operating Systems Theory.

As our head of the CS department, who had a PHD in CS himself, stated:

A computer to a Computer Scientest like that of a microsope to a biologist. It is nothing more than a tool to study computing science.

I do agree that the MIS field is a bit flooded and limited. It's an easier cirruculum typically (depending on where you went to school, a lot of the kids that started in CS at my school went to MIS because it was easier) and in my opinion has less opportunities that CS, is not as respected as CS in general, and has a lower lifetime earning potential than CS.

and to address you comments below:

"* Even with high entry level salaries, you will only end up being paid 10-15/hr. "

Are you nuts? Typical entry level salaries for CS majors are upper 40's lower 50's and that's for Junior level positions. And dont' call BS on me, I hire these guys all the time, and have done so throughout my career at several companies.

"* Because of the long hours and unrealistic expectations of "how long a business stakeholder thinks something should take" you'll always have to put in the "extra hours". "

To be excellent in CS it has to be a lifestyle, it can't be a side hobby, you can't turn it off when you go home, you live and breath it. You do it not because of the required hours or pay, but because this is what you like to do. If CS is not your lifestyle, then yes, failure is likely, but for those of us where CS is more than just a job, it's an identity and there are great rewards that come with it.

"* When most skilled workers getting paid overtime after 40/hrs, you won't but you'll be expected to work 60+ hours to finish a task that wasn't scoped/planned correctly."

Most CS jobs are paid much higher than a standard 40/hr week hourly person. The OT is typically baked into their salary. There are benefits to this scenario. In solid CS careers, you're not paid to be at your desk or at the office, your paid to deliver objectives. This give you a much greater time in personal time management without being held hostage by the time clock.

* The enjoyment you experienced programming in University will fade quickly and you'll wish you went into a true profession.

again, bs. First of all, I take great offense that you would refer to Computer Science as not a "true profession". If you enjoy programming, you enjoy programming. It's all about living the CS life. When I was a younger Software Engineer, yea, I wrote code at work as part of my job, and loved every minute of it. if anything, I enjoy writing code in my career more so than at college because of its real world application. Now that I'm into higher level positions (Software Architecture / Systems Analysis) I do very little programming at work (beside prototype/proof of concepts), but I still program quite a bit as a hobby at home. Not only to keep my skills in check, but because I also enjoy it.

* Finally, a masters degree only gets you 65K. You should be being paid over 90K for that level of education (debt).

More BS - with my undergrad out of college I was well over 50k. Within years I was in the 80k range as a Senior Engineer. I receive my masters and now make well over 6 figures and I've never gone into management. And I just turned 30. I'm sure there are people even younger than me making much more in the CS profession.

I'm sorry, and I'm not trying to start a flame, but it disappoints me to hear people who consult young future professionals who are trying to figure out what they want to do in life provide them with inaccurate information.

I wonder if you have family, kids. If you do, I am sorry for your wife, unless she is REALLY into computers. In such case, I am SUPER REALLY sorry for your kids.
By the look of it, you are married to your job and expect the same thing from others.
Sorry for the sarcasm. I used to be like you, but life goes on, priorities change... Eventually, it becomes no longer as much about money or love to programming, and family and health (including mental) become priorities #1.
Let me ask you. If you get into a car accident and can't work in the industry for a year or two, how hard would it be to come back? Would you be able to fulfill the same position without training?
BTW, in Alberta, Canada information technology professions are exempt from overtime: http://employment.albert...hg/hre/hs.xsl/1470.html
That is one of the reasons why the number of IT/CST graduates is dropping here.

So you are slamming the guy because he is excited about what he is doing while you follow common genetic conditioning and started breeding?

That's fine and your choice but how is what you are saying different for any other career than IT? It's simply a question of priorities. You want to reap extraordinary rewards you have to show extra commitment. Simple as that.

Why should they? IT is essentially a thankless non rewarding position that at every opportunity is demoralizing and dismissive by managment. When everything is great and running smooth, No one notices you. The only time they notice you working hard is when everything is falling to crap around you. Is it any wonder it gets outsourced to the foreign countries to do at the lowest possible cost with the least possible service? And during disaster times they tend to outsource again with contractors to fix it.

And in house IT is at an all time low at retention of new employees. Most are temps that vanish after every major project. Lasting employment in the field is pathetic and many companies short of large corporations want little to no budget for IT at all. The less they can get away with, the better. The last thing they want is some IT Manager coming in telling upper management they need money for upgrades or new equipment. All Management wants to hear is it will get done... Not its going to cost money. They expect you to find a way with what you got or your gone.

So upcoming IT graduates are lucky if they can find gainful employment at all with just a 4 year degree and a few certifications. Certifications only, or 2 year degree, might as well forget about working at all unless you subcontract with someone. Indeed unless you have been working in the field already for at least 5 years no one wants anything to do with you at all.

Personally I think my bachelors degree in MIS was the biggest waste of money and time I have ever done in my life. Might as well wipe my Butt with it for all the good it is.

AGREED

hahaha funny. Here's what I always say about IT jobs. "No problems? You're useless. Why are you even working here. A few problems popping up? You're guilty. Not doing your job right.."

Good salaries? You've gotta be kidding. Most tradies make more than IT grads, and they make it much sooner. In fact I'd go as far to say that until you're 25-30, you'll be earning about half what a plumber has been earning since he was 18. And you've got tertiary education debt to take into account. :p

If I had to do it all over again, I wouldn't be in IT. I'd be driving a damn truck in the mines for 3-4 times my current salary.

Right there with you...

The majority of IT jobs have been commoditized.

And the foreign market such as in Eastern Europe provides a training methodology that makes the US's look lame in comparison. In the US many move to computer science to avoid the math required in other areas of engineering. In Eastern Europe and the Former Soviet Union, a rigorous study and application of such math is fundamental to the study.

And when you consider that these markets are now eager for a piece of the world market for but a fraction of the price, it diminishes the value of a significantly less rigorous education.

Especially as the emphasis is away from a higher level of understanding and an increasingly focused need for upon the latest buzz word technologies with a the life-cycle of a fruit fly. You don't need engineers when you only need a technician.

Why? for the same reason that it doesn't make much sense to study shoe making? Both have been commoditized. And the rest of engineering is quickly following.

I tend to agree with Fox on this one. The fact is that it is both the IT and health industries pushing the hardest for extended work visas because they know labor is cheaper abroad.

For example, in the health care field which is being overun by people from India, India instituted a few years ago a 2 year program to teach people the language, how American health works and how to pass the test. As a result, in some areas the average wage is starting to go down.

The one comment in this article that concerns me is the following"

"But at the same time, the US Bureau of Labor Statistics estimates that 856,000 professional IT jobs will be added between 2008 and 2018 -- amounting to one out of every 19 new jobs that will appear over the next decade"

Can anyone say another tech bubble and another meltdown?

Have a nice day)

I would think one of the major reasons is a company would much rather hire someone with 10 years or more real world experience for the 100k and get their monies worth than a masters degree with no experience for the same amount. You can learn more studying on your own and taking on line courses specific to your needs than classical training that still teaches base DOS on 386 computers. In this particular field a classical education is not where it is at. Even the tech schools teach you more. Its a shame that our higher education system does not pay attention to the real world and adjust their course of study to match it. Other countries do.

I understand what you're saying, and I'm sure they're not oblivious to real world changes... but I don't see a feasible way for those institutions to modify their curriculums twice a year (at the very least) to keep up with the changes that take place in the industry.

Every (American) teenager I have asked about this subject says the same thing: "Why? All those jobs are going overseas." The reality of this can be argued all day long, but the perception (to them) is all that matters.

I don't see this plethora of jobs they talk about. I have a relative who handles HR all over the US and she says the number of IT openings has dropped sharply over the last few years. Five years ago the IT training industry was beating the drum furiously and a lot of people jumped on their bandwagon. Now we have a glut of entry-level professionals, and new college students know this full well. They know you can make a lot more money in management, finance or just about anything than you can in low level tech jobs. If you still want that kind of work a 4-year program makes no sense unless you're becoming a programmer or software engineer. You get your associates and supplement that with the certifications that employers really want. Funny how the trend watchers with their statistics never seem to know whats actually going on.

Since any moron can seemingly attain any kind of exulted qualification these days as long as they a) have enough money to buy one, or b) are sufficiently impoverished, or disadvantaged to qualify for an affirmative action placement at one of our esteemed institutions of learning, it's no wonder the smart people don't even bother with higher learning. It's for losers.

"it's no wonder the smart people don't even bother with higher learning. It's for losers. "

sigh....

More than likely it's because the courses are out of date and don't teach anything like what is currently in use for most computing. My first CS course was a Pascal course, on a Mac. Sure I learned basic programming skills, but that is as far as we really went. Even then, people were doing GUI programs for PCs and some basic HTML. MacPascal? Fortran? Lisp? Yes, they were used a little, but not much at the time. (Arguably Lisp more than the others.)

Now, I've chatted with some CS students and it's not a whole lot better in most cases. Why do I want to drop so much cash on a CS degree that doesn't prep me for what I'm going to use in the real world?

lol. go ahead and learn a modern language without a "primer" language...

What they say high beginning salaries isn't that high now a days. If the entry level amount isn't at least $100,000 a year (and thats still a little low), its more worth trying to make it on your own.

Yea...$100k for an entry level IT job...sure buddy.

All our desktop guys get paid at LEAST $100k/year!

/sarcasm

$100k is a salary I bet most people that have experience would be happy with...let alone an entry level IT guy!

Holy cow! You must be referring to SF area. Some areas you're doing *great* to make $45k with a cert and a degree.

Yea, ok...

"a 20% drop between 2005-06 and 2006-07 in students completing bachelors degrees in professional IT fields."

I wonder if that's because people are jumping into their careers after completing their associates and not bothering with the Bachelors?:)

hahaha
used to get paid 1.8 euros per hour now i get paid 5 euros per hour (about 8 dollars)

18k dollars per year is the basic here in Greece minimum wage... if i worked to the factory with no degree i would get 30k per year...

I've been working in the IT field for around 5 years now.
I'm a Lebanese who recently graduated in CS The wages here are very low (compared to neighboring arab countries). My salary throughout my career varied between $400 and $1200 per month. Why should I stay in IT? Well simply because I adore it. Why should I major in a field I do not enjoy working in? (even if I get paid more). I know people in the IT field who are making over $80k / year and I'm sure there are many more. IMO whatever your field is, always look for the fun side of it and not how much money you will make. Money comes by itself :).