I have spent the last few months reading a large number of online discussion forums regarding HD-DVD vs. Blu-Ray. I would suggest that you all do something that I did when blu-ray players first came out. Buy both formats and compare them for yourself in your own home, on your own TV and through your own sound system. Back in September, I purchased both the Toshiba HD-DVD player and the Samsung Blu-Ray player. I purchased movies in both formats, took all of these materials home, hooked both players up to my Sony HDTV at the same time and played both. In my opinion, the video images displayed on the TV were roughly equivalent. However, the sound output from the HD-DVD was noticeably better than the Blu-Ray. Given the minimal differences in video, the difference in price and the obvious difference in audio quality, I chose to hold on to the Toshiba and returned the Samsung. This is not to say that the Blu-Ray format is bad. It is noticeably better than standard DVDs. I simply preferred HD-DVD over Blu-Ray. I am not concerned with storage capacity on discs in the long term, as eventually all movies will be streamed/downloaded over the internet. The implications are, in truth, that neither format will win out. You may post your opinions/arguments, but until you have seen both players images in your own home, on your own system, I think it may be difficult to reach a good conclusion.

http://news.com.com/Blu-...41978.html?tag=nefd.top

Uh-oh.

Interesting article.

I'm beginning to wonder though. I stoped with the PS2 after my DVD drive went dead, so I'm thinking now that the people that bought the PS3 had to buy atleast 2-3 PS2's. I think people are just being cautious about running blu-ray movies knowing full well they WILL need to buy another PS3 in a year or 2 if they constantly make that drive spin.

Suck on it, Sony.

You've made your anti-consumer bed; now lie in it.

Oh yeah. There are many zealot fanboys like Hollywood but they make more damage than good for the poor sinking format (hd dvd) :)
Even if hd dvd has some presence in the USA, in Europe, Asia and Australia no one will ever use it...

I'm kind of confused. First you talk about the Blu-Ray format sinking, which I also agree with. But then you talk about that if HD-DVD had "some presence in the US, Euro, Asia and Australia no one will ever use it...", but the sales on Amazon.com in the US are telling the opposite. Did you mean to put Blu-Ray instead of HD-DVD?

could you explain a bit how did you reach that conclusion? what made you so sure no one outside USA will use HDDVD? or are you just being hatefull and mereley speculating? if so then your statement doesn't have much waight at all.

hd dvd is sinking i mean...

Proof?

http://video.movies.go.com/bluray/

All kidding and ball busting aside, how is that proof? That is a promotional site. You have posted links like this before and I am curious to know why you post them as statistical proof of anything? if you have a point I believe it has been missed.

Oh yeah, post a Disney site. Roll-freaking-eyes.

How about an unbiased consumer report not associated with any corporation who have taken sides with either of the formats?

Oh right, you won't post those.

We will buy which ever one becomes the most popular, and/or cheapest. At the moment we are leaning towards HD as it is cheaper, does what is needed and is more popular. We have never been fans of Sony, they come up with good ideas but always fail in the implementation (mainly due to greed/control issues).
We are in the UK and have seen neither in our local shops, and won't buy a player/recorder until they drop below the £200 mark. For now regular DVD does us just fine. We won't be buying a HD TV until our existing CRT one goes bust so there's no hurry.
Knowing Sony though BR will go the same way as BetaMax, due to managerial incompetence.

Mark and Dave don't like it when you compare the Blu-Ray to the Betamax. Because it might have some truth to it.

It is true. The only thing I see blu-ray being useful for is the PC realm. So you can't count them out, because I'd rather have more storage for backups. I just dont see them being succesful in the movie realm.

Even in the PC realm, external hard drives are a much better investment than Bluray discs.

From the article: "Many cited displeasure at being forced to use Blu-ray, whereas Microsoft provided a choice with making the HD DVD disc drive an external option."

Why wouldn't people want Blu-Ray in their next generation game console? For crying out loud the PS3 is 100% backwards compatible with both CD's and DVD's. I've also heard rumors that the PS3 can play SACD's as well. Would people rather that Sony sell separate external add-ons for both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray? Microsoft should have built HD-DVD into the Xbox 360. That might actually make it worth buying.

"Why wouldn't people want Blu-Ray in their next generation game console?"

Because one, it raised the price to $599. Second some people don't care if it play's high definition movies or not. And three, if HD-DVD takes off, like what the artical is suggesting is already happening, then Sony's screwed. Unless they also come up with an HD-DVD external drive, which I doubt would take off since the PS3 is already $200 more than the closest competition.

Also I don't see why making the HD-DVD built-in would make it any more worth buying than the way it is now. Except that if you don't care for watching movies (our you'd rather just download HD movies on Xbox Live for only $6), you can just save the $200.

$6 for a movie rental? dang

I think that's pretty good, also considering that there 720p which is better than DVD's. I did forget to mention though that that's the price for the New Release HD movies. The "classic" HD movies are only $4. You can also always get the Standard definition one too, which is $4.50 for HD and $3 for SD. Plus you don't have to go to the store to rent the movie and worry about late fees.

Sigh
I lean a little more toward Blue-ray, and considering Sony had the BIG chance of winning with the PS3.
Sadly, what they did is that they screwed it up with the PS3.

Hopefully there are still some better people in Sony that will try to at least make up a bit for this loss

O Mark and Dave are suddenly silent...They are still devising a plan for a counter attack!!!

Edit: So long and still no word from Mark and Dave?!?!? Wah?!?! Guess they don't show up in articles that are proving them wrong.

Whatever. Not everyone lives in your timezone. Because I didn't post within 4 hours of the article, means I am avoiding it?

This is what is funny here, all the posts about Sony being bad, HD-DVD being so great, it's a so introverted USA approach, in the real WORLD, things are very different...

Or maybe it is because Sony is bad and HD-DVD is great....

BTW...bout time you showed up I was about to get worried!!!

Blu-Ray discs are vastly superior than HD-DVD discs. One of the biggest reasons that Blu-Ray is not selling as good as HD-DVD is because movie studios rushed Blu-Ray movies to market by using old MPEG-2 video compression instead of superior VC1 video compression and old fashioned Dolby Digital audio instead of superior Dolby TrueHD and Dolby Digital Plus audio.

The first people to buy any of these new formats are likely going to be technology enthusiasts who would rather get a true high definition experience in both video AND sound.

Another reason that HD-DVD is outselling Blu-Ray is because it cost double the price and they both look basically the same. Except for, like you said, the earlier Blu-Rays that used MPEG-2.

"Another reason that HD-DVD is outselling Blu-Ray is because it cost double the price and they both look basically the same. Except for, like you said, the earlier Blu-Rays that used MPEG-2."

Ok everything he said...and all that extra space on Blue-Ray is not really needed. The HD-DVD can hold a movie just fine. Also most people wouldn't use the extra storage on a computer either, because you can do it much faster and easier on an external HD or something.

Such pompousness is such a Euro approach.

I think it was wrong to claim that surveying online discussions is an illegitimate form of research.

The traditional alternatives are phone surveys, questionnaires and personal interviews. Each one of these the researcher has to go to people and ask them questions. They may not be completely forthright, just want you to go away, or somesuch other thing.

Surveying online discussions is more organic. People, out of their own self interest, go to these places to discuss how they really feel. The results you get are more genuine, specific and up-to-date.

As an example, survey the online community on the Wii vs. PS3 debate and you will notice that the Wii has serious mindshare...the same result I have witnessed talking to people waiting in line to buy consoles, any consoles, where it just so happens they are all waiting for the Wii and could care less about the PS3.

I don't doubt that Cymfony has come to the same conclusions in their online research regarding the current format war.

Yes--but if you count the number of news reports that favored Democrats over Republicans, the percentages are much, much different than the election results were. Why? Because all it takes is 5% of the people complaining about something 99.9% of the time and that 5% becomes the majority.

It's called squeaky-wheel disease, and hard-core liberals (NOT necessarily democrats, people--just liberals. Many Republicans are this way as well--look at Webb) excel in this tactic. After 3 years of the hard-core liberals (making up less than 5% of America) constantly squeaking and badgering the same pack of lies non-stop, it is now almost a majority of America that believes them. Blogs and forums do this too--shove one future movie in everyone's faces enough and they will win people over, even if the reasons are completely invalid and lack any and all logic.

In this case, forums/online discussions are heavily biased because:

Most are started by someone who is misguided, thereby discouraging those who side with his/her issue while encouraging the other side to point out how misguided they are. Perfect example: Mark Gillespie has alienated almost every blu-ray supporter from the betanews forums. Why? Because they would rather argue about it where they have a chance of winning, and to them Mark has pretty much killed any chance of that happening. Thus, at betanews most posters support HD-DVD.

If not started by one misguided, like the mark example, someone who has a stance based on the wrong issues may come in and hurt their own cause. Again, many, many blu-ray supporters don't come to online forums to debate these issues, just as many HD-DVD supporters as well. But--how many Blu-Ray folks compared to HD-DVD folks? If we saw how many blu-ray players were purchased by those active in the forums next to those who are not in the forums, and do the same with HD-DVD player sales, then maybe these numbers might matter.

Well if you want numbers, here they are
http://www.thedvdwars.com/index.cfm
http://www.gamesystemwars.com/index.cfm
http://www.nexgenwars.com/

On the dem/repub issue. Well people are full of talk (Mark), but most dont actually vote (Mark no blu-ray yet). So your right to a certain extent as far as these people on the forusms probably dont own either blu-ray or HD-DVD players. I for one own an HD-DVD player, and I assume a lot of people do also based on the numbers in those links.

That is why getting a large cross-section from many diverse communities is key and what better way to get that than from the internet?

I am sure Cymfony didn't make the mistake of obtaining all of their research from a single community.

would you PLEASE stop posting those links, it's starting to look like you're spamming the forums.
i've seen them posted up to four times in the same article.
try finding some other sites to back up your claims eh.

???

So are the current links inaccurate? IF so state why, find a link to counter. Either that or shut it.

http://www.thedvdwars.com/index.cfm
http://www.gamesystemwars.com/index.cfm
http://www.nexgenwars.com/

He noted at this point that a majority of the discussion was still among early adopters

As you said yourself, it's the same 'squeaky-wheels' that form the opinions for many. Most people are just sheep - and in this case, if the early-adopters prefer HD-DVD, then your average consumer is going to follow their recommendations.

Again, as you said, it matters not whether or not the reasons and justifications are correct, just what opinions are passed on to the 'sheep'. It's also makes the method of data collection irrelevant: unless you believe people are saying one thing on a forum and are then likely to turn around and give a completely different answer to an anonymous phone call.

Are you starting to loose your faith in Blu-Ray, because your looking at the facts?

Hahahaha, I knew that when THG released this (http://www.tgdaily.com/2...u-ray_hddvd_discussions/ )and then finished with the words "these data collected from online discussions should be taken with a grain of salt" that betanews would be all over it!

Seriously, as pointed out, this article is nothing spectacular. HD-DVD would be leading anyway because the fact is most blogs and forums are even more biased than the associated press--and since Sony is big, and forums tend to side towards BIG == EVIL, then sony will always lose.

Having said that, I do still stand on the fact that it is likely people will side towards HD-DVD only because of Sony's***ory dealing with new formats, as well as price, bigger DRM worries (even if Sony's DRM is less strict than HD-DVD, even Mark has to agree the overall press will always lean against Sony on that issue), limited supply (again true or not, that is the overall fear from consumers), etc. So IMHO I believe HD-DVD will eventually be the winner, but this "consumer report" is about as reliable as the World of Warcraft servers are.

Well I personally when the HD-DVD route because I already had a 360. So $200 more for HD-DVD is a great deal for me. On top of that I've seen plenty of displays at Best buy to notice that the blu-ray content is grainy.

I can confidently say that the picture quality looks better on my HD-DVD player than what they play on blu-ray at best buy. Then consider the price. Why pay more, when for half the price you get the same thing in quality.

Here's something I don't understand yet: Toshiba may only be a $42.5 billion company versus Sony at $90.2 billion, but Toshiba isn't exactly small. Somehow, I doubt the average forum user is checking the balance sheets of the various company players before deciding which way to point their compasses of relative evil. I do believe there are some frank and honest assessments out there in the forums. But I also think if online forums were the true measure of any campaign's success, I think Howard Dean would already be the President of the United States.

So when do you see Toshibas name plastered on every single billboard trying to market HD-DVD? As far as I known, no where. I could be wrong, but I know that SOny pretty much stamps evertyhing they manufacture.

"I can confidently say that the picture quality looks better on my HD-DVD player than what they play on blu-ray at best buy."

The picture should be almost if not exactly the same...you might need that updated firmware on your samsung blu-ray player, perhaps?

Discuss it with the best buy staff then.

Actually, that's not correct. Picture quality in the high definition DVD world is based on many things, not just firmware.

Take for instance today's discs themselves. Most if not all of today's BluRay DVDs were encoded in MPEG2 - not H.264, VC-1 - on 25GB platters due to a decision made by Sony to only provide mastering tools that used MPEG2. They look awful on any BluRay player compared to HD-DVDs which are, as far as I know, almost entirely encoded in VC-1 (WMV) on 35GB platters providing a much better picture.

My understanding is that Sony believed 50GB BluRay platters would be available by the release of the first gen players and encoders believed that MPEG2 using 50GB provided a better picture than VC-1 or H.264 so they only prepared for MPEG2. When it became apparent that 50GB platters weren't going to be mass producable in cost-effective manner in time for the release of BluRay, they were stuck between a rock and a hard place, being forced to use tools focused entirely on MPEG2 using 25GB platters.

Could BluRay simply use a better compression codec like VC-1 or H.264 later to obtain the same quality-on-disc as HD-DVD? Sure. But they'd be stuck doing it on 25GB platters unless they figure out a way to mass-produce pre-mastered 50GB discs.

And besides, all BluRay's existing and upcoming content is already encoded poorly making BluRay a bad decision for existing HD TV customers.

That's some interesting info. Thanks.

Sony have not helped themselves in the last 2 years, they have made some silly errors of judgement, and their marketting department should be shot for this. They also don't understand western media. Many of the things they have done, my initial reaction is "what on earth were they thinking, don't that know how the westen media will interpret this", that said, they still make he best and most desirable products on the market...

"they still make he best and most desirable products on the market"

Really? I don't get what's so desirable about anything made by Sony. They used to have a highly desirable brand name, but that doesn't automatically make all their products great. Key phrase being "used to have".

You know the old saying, one man's garbage is another man's treasure. Also, there are companies who make highly desirable butt plugs, but I'm not going to buy those either.

"they still make he best and most desirable products on the market"

Whoa, what an ignorant comment. Looking around my home I have a Sony universal remote....and nothing else.

Most desirable by who? Not me. Best according to who? Not me, not Consumer Reports, not Sony's profits.

"they still make he best and most desirable products on the market..."
No, not really. They just get sheep like you that'll buy anything that has the Sony stamp on it.

HI DAVEBG! :)

Way for that research firm to summarize what we all see here on a weekly basis. I am guessing that was a non-commissioned study they performed to get their company's name out there. Searching forum posts counts as research now? Maybe I should start my own firm.

Like westonc stated above. This seems more genuine than walking door to door. Online post better reflect what people really think.

However, online posts are not necessarily representative of consumers in general.

they aren't representative *at all*. There is no scientific or statistical way to extract actual purchasing patterns, preferences, or future patterns from online posting. none!

"actual purchasing patterns, preferences, or future patterns"

This should shut you up then
http://www.thedvdwars.com/index.cfm
http://www.gamesystemwars.com/index.cfm
http://www.nexgenwars.com/

In that case, what is?

Ok... so online posts don't represent what consumers like and sales numbers from major online retailers don't represent their buying preferences. what does? Speculation from lovestruck Sony fans? I know... the Sony naysayers are just more vocal. In my opinion it is still too early to tell, but that doesn't make this information irrelevant.

You seem to be under the impression I am a Sony fanboy. Let me clarify something, just because I doubt a study's path to its conclusion, does not mean I disagree with its conclusion. I lean more towards HD-DVD at the moment, but am staying out of the market until two things occur. The first being me actually purchasing an HDTV. The second being the presence of a clear winner in the HD format war. The study used sales numbers, I thought it as just posting trends? How did they count trolls? (Not saying you are one, just pointing out one source of inaccuracy for their survey. And by trolls I mean true trolls, ones that will say things they do not believe in/agree with to get a rise out of people, not rude zealots.)

My comment was out of context in that it was more of a response to this and other discussions here about the two formats rather than this study alone. I didn’t intend to accuse you of being an ignorant fan, I got caught up in some of the posts here and this is where it landed.

There is no way to measure the accuracy of a study like this which makes it difficult for some to accept. I believe that discussion boards are fairly accurate in their overall opinions of technology and products, but there is no way to account for the findings so it becomes easy to discount them.

Yeah because online posts represent consumers at large.

Give me a break. Why are we seeing this pointless article? This isn't betanews typical quality.

"Yeah because online posts represent consumers at large."

Then explain the success of sites like ePinions and why every decent shopping site online has user reviews and comments. The problem is cutting through the marketing hype to figure out which is the best format. If HD-DVD consumers are out there being positive, and Blu-Ray users are not then it is a poor grassroots campaign on Sony's part.

epinions? fine, it's successful, but I don't use it. The few time's I've been directed there by a google search it showed no reviews on the products I've looked at or they were under 10. Sorry, that doesn't help me.

I rarely buy anything electronic without reading reviews and or forums. It is good real world information as long as you are smart enough to be objective and read more than one or two reviews/posts.

Do you shop online? Most online shops have reviews on products that you can buy. I read them a lot on sites like Newegg.com. They come in handy when I want to buy a computer part or upgrade so I know what other people think before I spend my hard earned money.

Of course, in those cases you are actually looking to buy, and the reviewers (hopefully) have half a clue of what they are talking about, or at very least can give their own first hand (if inept) experience. Message boards and discussion groups (about new anything) are usually 99% people asking for information or spouting pure speculation. The buyers are out buying, the window shoppers are at message boards.