RSSSun Attacks Release of Java.NET
By David Worthington | Published October 9, 2001, 1:29 AM
As first reported by UK-based news outlet The Register, an early preview of Microsoft's version of Java intended to run in tandem with .NET headed out of the stables at Redmond. Although the 7 megabyte file as pulled from Microsoft's download site almost as soon as it make its brief appearance, enough time elapsed for a small number of fortunate souls to get their hands on it.
In essence, Microsoft has created its own cloned version of Java while circumventing Sun’s stringent compatibility requirements and downgrading Java's role to be merely a programming language instead of a platform. Although the product dubbed, Visual JSharp .NET version 7.0, is by definition an unfinished work, Sun is already pacing itself to make the distinction between its own offerings and what its calls "Microsoft FUD."
Sun Spokesperson David Harrah expressed the company’s viewpoints in a frank response issued to BetaNews.
"First, we need to keep in mind that we're still in the rumor stage on this, but from what we've seen, which includes the Microsoft Web site page prior to its removal, we think it looks like nothing more than a release of the JUMP software announced in January after the settlement of the Sun Microsoft lawsuit," said Harrah.
"If the download page's description is correct, the Microsoft software addresses only the use of the Java programming language, not the Java Platform. This is a crucial distinction as the platform incorporates the use of the Java Virtual Machine and this is what gives the Java technology its cross-platform compatibility and support, which is Java's fundamental value proposition. Microsoft has always tried to position Java as just another language, but the IT world knows better."
Harrah continued, "As described on the page, Microsoft Visual J# .NET is not a tool for developing applications intended to run on a Java Virtual Machine. Applications and services built with Visual J# .NET will run only in the .NET Framework." This means the Microsoft technology remains locked into the .NET framework and does not operate in the system-agnostic world of the Java Platform. Thus, applications developed with this rumored technology will not enjoy the cross-platform benefits of applications built with the real Java programming language that run with the Java Platform.
"Microsoft also says, 'It integrates the java-language syntax into the Visual Studio .NET shell. Microsoft Visual J# .NET also supports the functionality found in VJ++ 6.0 including Microsoft extensions,'" said Harrah. "This means the technology is probably the "bridge" software Microsoft announced in January that provides a minimal migration path for those developers who used VJ++ 6.0 thinking it was compatible with the Java Platform. VJ++ 6.0 and its "Microsoft extensions" were the basis for Sun's lawsuit against Microsoft because VJ++ 6.0 was not compatible with the Java platform, a violation of the licensing agreement."
Summing up Sun's feelings, Harrah downplayed the value of J#. "We view this rumored announcement, if true, as more Microsoft F.U.D. and reaffirm our desire that Microsoft license the Java technology in good faith and join the hundreds of other companies that participate in the Java Community Process that extends and maintains the Java technology.
"The rumor also is indicative of the pervasiveness that Java has attained in the past 6 years and the increasing demand from users that Microsoft products provide true interoperability with the Java platform. Last week's SQL Server/J2EE connector announcement from Microsoft can be inferred as a realization by Microsoft that they need to supply technologies that connect their software with Java. Full support and interoperability should begin with a license," stated Harrah.
According to product documentation, "Microsoft Visual J# .NET is a development tool that developers who are familiar with the java-language syntax can use to build applications and services on the .NET Framework. It integrates the java-language syntax into the Visual Studio .NET shell." Microsoft also acknowledges that applications authored with the development tool will not be compatible Java Virtual Machines (JVMs).
Microsoft is touting Java-like languages as viable alternatives to Sun that offer the full advantages of the .NET framework. Redmond is not the first company to attempt a cloned version of Java, however it is the most outspoken critic of the tight control Sun has exercised over the technology.
When asked for comment, a Microsoft Spokesperson told BetaNews, "Unfortunately we have limited spokesperson availability and are unable to provide anyone who can comment on this issue."
if you want to download the beta, use the following url:
http://msdn.microsoft.co...54/msdncompositedoc.xml
enjoy!!
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|if you want to download the beta, use the following url:
http://msdn.microsoft.co...54/msdncompositedoc.xml
enjoy!!
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|Why would anyone like to use J# instead of C# for building applicatons that uses the .NET framework? As previously posted, Java is a language and a framework, where mastering the framework is the hard part.
I doubt that a MS J# will be a commercial language, but let's assume that for the sake of argument. Why use J# over C# when the languages are very similar and C# adds nice things such as enumerations, overloaded operators, etc? Add all the MSDN articles, books and other resources on C# for .NET and I don't have to hesitate...
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|For those who are wondering about the crossplatform possibilities for .NET. Ximian (maker of Ximian GNOME) is working on an open source (.NET) CLI implementation for Linux. I don't recall where I read this now... but I believe someone is working on a CLI implementation for BSD (unfortunately I can't find proof of that right now :).
"Ximian announced the launch of the Mono project, an effort to create an Open Source implementation of the .NET Development Framework. Mono includes: a compiler for the C# language, a runtime for the Common Language Infrastructure and a set of class libraries." -- [source: go-mono.com]
project mono:: http://www.go-mono.com/
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|Where can i download this beast ?:)
Ive always wanted Java have more compatibility for windows, i mean it is the most common desktop envirnment to build applications for and extending the Java lange further can only be good not bad.
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|If this rumor is true...I'm wondering how long it will take for Visual J# to circulate the warez sitez.
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|hehe very interesting microsoft :)
so you arent allowed to make a Java VM do what you want anymore, so you simply allow java developers to make code to your common language runtime system instead!
"Thus, applications developed with this rumored technology will not enjoy the cross-platform benefits of applications built with the real Java programming language that run with the Java Platform."
now now sun... thats not strictly true is it... it all depends on how many platforms .net/clr gets ported to, just like the "cross-platform benefits" java originally depended on how many platforms had VMs developed for them.
Im sure sun are far more annoyed by this than they are letting on at the moment.
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|I do belive SUN is shaking right now ..
If Java coders don't need to use the slow VM and still can use their knowledge, will they stick to SUN and their dinosour attitude??
When was the last time SUN made a great invention in the Java langugae?? Long time ago, wasn't it ...
Well, the JUMP utilty will blow som e wind in the JAva community, but this will rock the foundation totally...
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|That's not entirely true, Sun have made constant improvements to Java, the upcoming 1.4 release has major additions/improvements made to it. And let's not forget all the other work that they have been doing - Jini, J2EE etc etc. The one thing you can criticise they on is the fact that they refuse to open up Java after promising to do so in the first place.
But yeah, I think that if this turns out to be true, SUN is going to start rounding up lawyers anywhere they can.
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|This past year, I attended JavaOne (the official developer conference for Java developers) and know Java is here to stay. I have no doubt in my mind that some companies will choose to adopt Microsoft's .NET platform. I also sincerely believe, however, that more companies will stick to the J2EE platform. In the OS and productivity environment, MS applications remain pretty much undaunted in the SOHO environment by the Linux 'Windows Alternatives' (i.e. Mandrake and products like StarOffice). However, when it comes to application servers, J2EE is more widely adopted by the industry and is a more mature and robust. I suggest anyone to read an article from http://www.sun.com/software/sunone/wp-j2ee/
Yeah, it's linked off Sun's site, but the article is relatively objective. I won't regurgitate the article here, so go read it!
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|Have you actually done any development with Java and .NET? If so you would understand the conundrum--it is easy to create a quick and dirty application in Visual Studio/.NET. It is a b**** to create a flexible enterprise application in same. It is non-trivial to create an enterprise solution in J2EE. It is much easier to modify an enterprise solution in J2EE for other customers. Microsoft will be stuck at the company level for at least two more years. By that time Sun's J2EE platform will have a substantial lead.
You read it here first: If you are building local apps and do not foresee major changes, .NET is the ticket. The closer you get to enterprise products that require customization, the better off you are with Java.
You are missing the boat about Java. It is not only a language, which Microsoft is supporting, but a platform. It would be no different than if Sun provided a VM for C#. So where's this vaunted cross-platform porting of .NET? I'll believe it when I see it. Heck, it has taken Microsoft three years and they still aren't ready for their own platform. Do you seriously think they will port the full-blown system to a competing platform?
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|First off, the only thing that Java(the language) and J# have in common is their syntax. Their class libraries are completly different. Therefore your belief that Sun is currently horrified at the prospect of J#.NET is very much false. Java developers will find it no more easy to transition to J# than they would C#. When you start writing J#.NET Applications start praying to the Microsoft gods that you never need to port to another OS because then you will truely be SOL.
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|With all do respect to all the 'by hearth java programmers' out there..
I've been developing in the ,NET framework for some time now and ther is nothing hard in the process to create true enterprise solutoions, ther's nothing confusing about making changes in the solution afterwards. By the conterary, with the new way in wich meta data is saved in the assemblies instead of in the registry, we have a way to
distribut changes in a second, with things like side-by-side executon, ther won't be too many comapbility issues to worry about.
It seems to me that it is you that haven't bothered to look at the .NET framework.
J2EE is probably a good technique to use, but i prefer COM+ instead, and COM+ is weel integratd in the .NET framework.
The statement that J2EE will role the world is absurd. COM+ hasn't changed with the .NET framework, WIN DNA hasn't changed. MS is just giving us new tools to develop these things more efficently.
And yes, it's only the langauge that are similar in J# and yes you need to learn the ,NET base classes instead of the java counterpart..
I'm curious. your talking about changes to JAVA, u mean the engine ?? NOt the langugae right ...
And in the end I just want to say. IT will all come down to resources, the company putting in the most effort, people and money to develop a platform for us developers. Look at the figurres, whisch company puts in the most resources on their technology?? SUN/IBM or Microsoft??
BTW, attending a JAVA conferance and listen to the people there saying that JAVA will rule the world, is as bad as listening to MS saying the same or SMallTalk pepole saying their langugae will be the dominating.. It's all marketing bulls***...
HE who live will see ...
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|I read the article 'http://www.sun.com/software/sunone/wp-j2ee', it is too bad it is filled with inaccuracies. I am not on betanews often so I will not be able to debate the next replies, sorry.
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|It's a pity you couldn't be on BetaNews long enough to debate your initial point, saying there are inaccuracies and then not point a single one of them out is like answering a question with "because".
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|Regarding http://www.sun.com/software/sunone/wp-j2ee , and its inaccuracies, how about these, for starters. The paper claims that:
(1) J2EE has been extended to support web services. Not so fast, the JSR (109) was rejected. The J2EE guys are still considering how to do this. maybe in J2EE 1.4.
(2) .NET replaces COM+, MSMQ, Biztalk, and SQL. In fact .NET complements these. So obvious, maybe this was a typo?
(3) MSIL is interpreted. NOT. MSIL is always native compiled. Sometimes JIT, sometimes pre-compiled. And the .NET JIT kicks hotspot's arse. (authors failed to note that)
(4) .NET lacks custom tags in ASP.NET, or session state management. wrong again. Check the docs, try it out, it works.
Do I need to go on?
Wrapping up, the authors wrote ".NET is a monopolistic initiative. " Bye-bye, journalistic integrity and impartiality with that one. [But Sun paid for the paper, so is anyone surprised? ] Which poster said this paper was "objective"?
This analysis is worthless, unless you are looking for a J2EE pep rally.
I want to see a real evaluation, but there is no source for unbiased, technical analysis. Everyone has religion.
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|You're kidding, right? Easier to maintain a J2EE app than a .Net CLR app?
J2EE requires all kinds of XML deployment bulls***, as well as three different types of packages. Plus you can't just copy in the packages, you have to fart about with a deployment tool, which is different on EVERY implementation of J2EE.
Contrast to .Net. Copy .asmx and .aspx files to web root. Copy .dll's to bin under web root. Done.
I don't mind the Java language, but J2EE is horrible.
WRT to this J#, it compiles Java programs written for the 1.1.8 JVM and compiles them to a standalone .Net .exe. It supports most standards in the 1.1.8 VM.
Finally, there are .Net implementations coming along for BSD and Mac OS X (MS are involved in these), as well as other Unices like Linux (check http://go-mono.com/ - it can run basic .Net .exe's now!)
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