God, I hope Sony looses this lawsuit. This is one good way we can teach these companies a lesson. They got what's comin' to them. Why do they have to do stuff like this?

Not only Sony do this thing, I`m quite sure taht Logitech does the same. This problem streted after installing the new G7 moues with
it´s new setpoint-program. Anyone else who´s notice this?
Rgeards
Lars

Sony also is installing the RootKit software on it trial versions of its professional media products. like Sound Forge V7.0 and other programs like Vegas Video. Each time you start these programs afterwards, the softeare tries to contact Sony's site to send information about the computer. Their invasion of our computers is much deeper than just the Music CD's. I had set up a Fire Wall prohibiting my Sony produsts form dialing home. I kept getting notices that the programs were trying to dial home. I downloaded the RootKit Revealer program to scan m computer and it found offensive RootKit programs installed. I have never put a Sony BMG CD in this particular computer or any on my network. Where did this come from. SOmeone should check other Sony programs to see if they are insatlling the Rootkit Software as well.
Regards,
Nick

Sony may lose more money on this lawsuit
than the money they think there losing over downloading music illegally.

Not even close...

2000: CD/DVD Sales 1,072.2 Million Units
2002: CD/DVD Sales 675.2 Million Units
2003: CD/DVD Sales 658.2 Million Units
2004: CD/DVD Sales 686.9 Million Units

(Info from http://www.riaa.com )

Now these stats include internet sales
Wow...that's a HUGE drop in sales I'd say this $100,000 lawsuit is pocket change compared to what these companies have lost due to piracy...

Thing is, I really don't know if I'd be willing to believe any stats coming out of RIAA out of hand....

But maybe that's just me.

lol yeah you've got a point there, but the RIAA isn't the only ones to report these type of losses.

> ...this $100,000 lawsuit is pocket change...

"civil penalties of $100,000 for each violation of the law".

That means $100,000 for each instance spyware was installed on someone's computer.

Still think it's not even close?

Good point...but the point of the matter is...Stop stealing, Piracy is a CRIME. no matter how you look at it...

I happen to think that stealing is a crime and copying isn't stealing.

Statement technically corrected for the anal-retentive:

Copyright infringement is a crime.

If you're referring primarily to P2P file sharing services, the record industry has lost very little from P2P. These losses are because the record companies were overcharging consumers for CD's during nearly all of the times you mention and consumers probably started listened to music from other legal sources instead of buying CD's.

Copying isnt IF you own the original media and the work being copied isnt copyrighted. Please get your facts straight

Copying isn't stealing. Even distorted US law says so. It says unlicensed coping is a "copyright violation" and nowhere in the law it is equaled with stealing.

they did this so they could see who is downloading music and than go after the avg customer now when the word of this gets around who u think is going to stop buying cds thats right the customers. I hope they get sued for billions.

Oh...So the RIAA and MPAA should be sued for billions too right? because they're doing the samething!

Hell! Lets sue every music record label, every movie label, every company in the world thats in the recording/software industry because we don't think it's fair that we're not allowed to steal from them.....idiot

These people must be sued because they think to be FBI, they want to be the Judge and Jury.
Also, "piracy" is driven by multinational groups in the first place with more or less known agreements and tricks. Why ? Just because with no piracy then producers wouldn't sell any hardware. Pretty simple.
Just think about the Playstation, PSX, PSOne,PS2, PSP.. and so on ... it's well known that Sony has interests in selling billions of CD and DVD blanks... and it makes huge profits on hardware there thanks to "piracy" .. And everyone knowns that hacking chips weren't born out of some reverse engineering and just that...
So it's pretty pathetic everytime Sony or Microsoft or anyone else try to sue people or shops for selling hacking stuff.

I'm glad to see affirmitave action is being taken...But what about all the other spyware companies out there? why aren't they being sued and shut down???? they're downloading, installing software onto peoples computers without thier concent, and then opening holes in security by the use of Trojan horses and downloading more spyware onto people's PCs, So why isn't action being taken on these people!? I mean, they got company names, addresses, and developers names all over the software...

So I guess it's the RIAA and the MPAA that pushed sony to create this DRM software, along with all the people pirating the music...I mean this just goes in a big loop.

So pretty much, people kept stealing Sony BMG Music, sony took action because no one else would. Created software that would prevent the theft, people got mad because they couldn't steal it or found ways to steal it, so sony put some spyware in to find out who's stealing their music, wow...this sounds familliar!!! The RIAA and MPAA are doing the EXACT same thing!!! They look around at limewire accounts etc, peer into peoples computers, find pirated software, and sue them...but that's ok!

Once again I've reached a point where piecing through this thread has become arduous.

I'm out.

Thanks for letting us all know.

Hey, in threads like this you gotta say when your out, otherwise folks will think you've lost.

:P

Hey roj, no hard feelings, man. We grew up in different societies and all that jazz.

The morality thing bugs the hell outta me though, perhaps another time.

cya, dude.

[P.S. I'll never look at frogs quite the same way]

Your focusing on the fact that pirating is bad and avoiding the issue. Yes downloading music illegally is wrong... it's illegal. However, music company's are making quite a bit from the honest customers, again that doesn't make downloading right, but the amount they are loosing in comparison to what they've gained through sales is minimal for a few reasons...
1. Many people who pirate music wouldnt buy it anyway even if they couldnt download it.
2. I know many people here on my campus that will download songs see if they like them then go out and by the cd... they want a preview, so in this case it HELPS the company's.

When things like this come out that Sony was being underhanded it effects the view of all of the major distributors whether they did something or not... the chance is now out there that a cd you play on your computer will put something there it shouldnt, this is the same for many software.

Again I reiterate, yes downloading illegally is wrong however being underhanded to stop that 10% when there making large profits from the other 90% is illogical and not a smart business move.

"1. Many people who pirate music wouldnt buy it anyway even if they couldnt download it."

Then why download it???

"2. I know many people here on my campus that will download songs see if they like them then go out and by the cd... they want a preview, so in this case it HELPS the company's."

Well, did you know you can goto the artists website? or MANY other websites where you can "preview" the music LEGALLY??

Did you know that CD sales have Dropped dramaticlly since P2P has been around? I mean, if Sales stayed the same I'm sure these companies would care less! 1 year after P2P became big, CD sales dropped 40%. I would say that's a reason for drastic measures...

Dead on, to add to this:

"Well, did you know you can goto the artists website? or MANY other websites where you can "preview" the music LEGALLY??"

There's also this nifty invention called the radio...they even have it streaming over the internet now for those into indie music.

Amazing....

Thank you

If I buy a cd, I want to use it to it's full potential... copy it to ogg, possibly have it stored on 2 computers that I own, along with my portable player, maybe even a dvd burned full of digital music and what not. These are all personal uses and should not be prohibited in any way, as long as that cd is rightfully mine.

I should not have to buy a CD of an audio cassette I purchased, as long as I can transfer it to CD myself.

I'm just saying that fair use should not be blocked, even if it is the hole that allows others illegal use.

Think of it as a spam blocker, do what you can to keep the bad mail out, but by alll means, legit mail must be allowed. Let's say the majority of spam has the word "purchase" in the message. Blocking all e-mail with "purchase" would prevent a lot of spam, but it could keep out legit e-mail out, such as any on-line purchases you have made.

Truth is, these companies don't give a s*** about your fair use, as long as you are a customer, they will not care about what you want.

When they prevent you from doing what is legit, especially if it is something a lot of people will be doing, you must stop being a customer.

I agree with you 100%, When I buy CDs or DVDs, I like to make a copy. I use the copies when in my car, or when watching the movie. Because CDs and DVDs get scratched and damaged, so I would rather scratch and damage a copy than the original. But people took advantage, Music, movie, and software companies are losing millions of dollars everyday due to piracy. Yes it's not fair to the consumer that we cannot make these copies now due to anti-piracy features. But don't blame the Companies, blame the Law-breakers that took advantage and pirated the software.

and they should investergate who else has got this info and sue then as well go get em

well done, we need more people like this

Actually many of us at http://rpg-exploiters.shoq.net really appreciated the rootkit provided by Sony. Thanx Sony. You see, it allowed us to run cheats, which Blizzard Entertainment (makers of World of Warcraft), could not watch. In fact thanx to Sony, they also blocked their own spy detection system, such as the one that overlooks Everquest and Star Wars Galaxies.

Thank God someone has the balls to sue them! Hooray! What goes around comes around...

See how they like the receiving end...

They are so blind to the damage they caused and still feel they did nothing wrong..aauugghh, they can't see in front of thier face.

…And then there were four: EFF sues Sony BMG
November 21st, 2005

It’s been expected for a while, and now it’s official: according to SecurityFix, which updated its post from this morning about the Texas lawsuit, the Electronic Frontier Foundation has brought suit against Sony BMG. This suit has been widely anticipated following the EFF’s open letter to Sony BMG last week regarding their XCP and SunnComm Media Max DRM schemes.

You can read more about the EFF lawsuit on their site; the brief should be posted later today.

Yes, sue them so they learn not to mess with consumers like that. And other companies will know not to do the same!!

Sure Sony released these CD's, however the technology was created by: http://www.xcp-aurora.com/ and if you look at the press section on their website, it's shows since May 2005, that Sony was planning on using this technology.

I'm not saying it was our job to know this, I'm saying Frist4Internet, needs to be held accountable as well. I'm happy to see all these lawsuits and enjoy seeing the tables turn on Sony and to RIAA.

This just goes to show you, they aren't only out to get the pirates. They want us all.

Agree. I think F4I needs to be sued and probably shut down as well. They are the ones making the harmful tool in the first place.

After all, isn't this the basis used by RI** and MP** to sue KaZaA and the likes (ie. "the software creators") in addition to suing the users of those software?

A lighter side of the story:

http://news.yahoo.com/ne...121/cx_ft_uc/ft20051121

Just in case anyone needed a laugh =)

Heh...

Celine Dion...

Heh...

She's like...so hot....

Heh...

And her music...it hurts....

Like a banshee's wail...

Yeah, a hot...banshee....

Heh...

(so much beer...so little time...)

Also, here's some food for thought... I bought a Sony MiniDisc a while back to record a high school band that I taught. It was a USB device, but I was not allowed to digitally upload the content, despite the advertising. The reason? Copy protection. The device has a mic port, but you are not able to upload your recording. It turns out that the hardware could in fact upload, but Sony turned off the ability to protect intellectual property. Funny; they protected it from its owner.

It's just another chapter in Sony's lunacy. Boycott Sony. http://cityofrain.com/?p=458 Give your favorite Sony story!

Find the 12yr old girl that the RIAA sued for MP3's, give her a sony Cd with the rootkit, have her install it, and then get her to sue Sony :)
(Seeing as sony is a member of the RIAA im guessing :)
She can get all her money back and more that the RIAA are trying to take :)

It would be nice if Bob Dylan, Carlos Santana, Celine Dion and other artists on the COLUMBIA label filed lawsuits against SONY/BMG the parent company. A corrupt record label is selling CD burners, blank discs and undercutting the retail sales of licensed products. They're ripping off other record companies, which don't sell the hardware or blank disks, to make pirated copies. Filing lawsuits against kids for downloading MP-3s is heer hypocrisy. The US Congress is brain dead and too corrupt to even ask why.

What else we use them for is our own business.

Why cant these corporate morons get it through their think skulls. IF SOMEONE WANTS TO PIRATE THEY WILL PIRATE, doesnt matter how many roadblocks you put in their way, they will find a way.

Why cant you be proactive, and recognize that music as it stands now is over priced, and lacking quality. Why must CDs still be 15 bucks a pop when they are cheaper to produce than cassettes and cassettes never cost more than 10 bucks a pop.

they over 30 in japan, you spoiled american :-P

I do wish we would stop complaining about prices here in the US...truth is we are TOO spoiled.

EXTREMELY spoiled

...and stupid.

(I can say that because I live in the U.S.)

By that logic, why bother having law enforcement whatsoever? People are going to find ways to break any law; no matter what it is.

I can say the same thing as I look south - I'm in Canada. :) :) ;)

waitwaitwait...

You saw logic in that? Where??

I am looking, but can't find it, for the life of me.

Canada...

Reminds me of a joke about how they got that name....

So...

They're at the meeting, to decide wat to name the country...and start drawing letters out of a hat..

*pulls out first letter*

C, eh?

*pulls out second letter*

N, eh?

*pulls out third letter*

D, eh?

And that's how it was named. C, eh, N, eh, D, eh.

Honest. It's the truth, I tell ya.

No offense, man. Just playin'.

Haha. I was like 5 when I first heard that joke...

Yeah, but the good ones never die, man.

A few years ago (few people will remember it, because technology moves so fast it is like the Jurassic age). With the advent of PC's, the large software companies were paranoid about how easy it was to copy software from one computer to the other, so they invented all sorts of schemes (dongles, copy-protected disks with deliberate flaws in them, license keys, etc etc) to prevent it.

They finally dispensed with copy protection schemes when they realised that it was hurting the people who were quite happy to pay for it: Corporate customers. The fact that individuals copied the software didn't really hurt them - in reality they are never going to buy the software anyway. Microsoft were actually smart enough to modify the license to allow home copies of software if you had a legit copy at work. This did wonders for their sales.

I know that this situation is different, because we are not talking corporate customers, but then again, is it really that different ?

If we assume that the world is basically honest, and happy to pay for things that are reasonably priced, then the scenario might look different. If music was cheap enough, I wouldn't object to paying a few cents for a track, and take the risk that I might easily lose it. Imagine how much music would be sold legitimately, and I suspect the record companies revenues would even go up (as would their public image).

They will never win the DRM war, computer technology is way too open, and unless they own all of the operating systems, they can never close all the options for copying music.

Let's hope they wake up and smell the coffee. If they offered 10c downloads, their online music stores would be swamped.

"If we assume that the world is basically honest,"

That's where your argument loses all ground.

90% of the world is part of the "non-pirate" crowd, so yes, the world is basically honest. We're not talking about them....we're talking about the dishonest ones.

Where do you get 90%? Where does that figure even come into play?

I think its more like 70%. Take a percentage of prison population, and people that break the law, everyday.. tickets. Add it up.. Its a LOT higher than 10% dishonesty in this country..

And just like your smug RIAA comment, what does this have to do with SONY? Nothing..

1.) I was replying to his the parent.

2.) Does arguing the percentage change the point? Even at 70%, the majority is still with the honest.

Add it up, indeed.

You're on a roll, man.

I disagree, tool. If given a roughly equal choice between honesty and otherwise, people LIKE to be good. If a song was, for example, a dime w/o DRM, no one in their right mind would bother to pirate. It's too easy not to. Make a track $1, and hang DRM around it, and now rootkits, and you make it very unattractive, and in fact you encourage pirating since there's less of a chance of your computer getting hosed.

One big label is going to have to take the plunge, and start selling at a discount without DRM. It will make business sense, but it will take a humongous pair of brass ones to do it. As the disc distribution model continues its slide into irrelevence, labels subsidize more and more. There will be a s***, and it's coming soon.

You are equating honesty with personal responsibility. But either way, downloading music without paying for it is dishonest. Choice made. Only being good when it suits one's situation or circumstances does not magically justify one's acts of dishonesty.

Apparently honesty, morals, and ethics nowadays are subjective. Right and wrong are no longer pure shining beacons, but instead change based on the current whims of society.

*shrug*

We agree that the current model is old and needs to be replaced. I just don't think that honesty is based on circumstances.

10% - Big Hairy Deal.

The 90% honest ones MORE than make those greedy ****ers an UNfair profit margin. In my former life I was a club DJ. i saw 12" product rise in proce from $3.99 to $25.99 in three years - for no good reason. I've seen vinyl replaced by CD - CD that initially was dummied down in quality because it was too expensive in the eyes of the majors to maintain their staggering profit margins and still provide quality even though the technology existed. They milked the public dry ("let's phase out vinyl quickly and force them to buy it all over again on digital") and that's where they acquired their taste for overblown profits - from an artificially created bulge in consumer buying trends which will never happen again. Now we have the "remaster"; translation: what we should have had to begin with. And don't forget about payola and racketeering - Sony settled out of court just this year on those charges.

Don't say the words "honest" and "entertainment industry" in the same sentence - that's an oxymoron.

Back to the 10%, give a little to get a lot...

...or risk losing it all.

That's what ahppened with taping back in the day.

So far they're well down the road to losing it all.

"But either way, downloading music without paying for it is dishonest."

Nope.

That's an intentionally propagated misconception based on what the industry would have you believe to their advantage. How can I say this? History. They tried to stop home taping using the same argument. Failed miserably too - at the legislative level.

Funny how that wasn't dishonest.

You see, morality isn't absolute. It's *always* negotiated - that's why it's been changing so much down through the ages. And the industry has deep pockets - which is why they own your legislature lock, stock and barrel.

And you let them.

Downloading TV shows isn't dishonest either - it's the same as taping them.

Taping from the radio - not dishonest.

Neither is making a copy of a book for a term paper.

Neither is...

I don't buy into the brainwashing. I'm surprised you do.

You can argue about the morality of it all day long, but downloading music without paying for it IS illegal.

The legality *should* come into play when you consider the morality of an action. I'm not saying all laws are right, but if a law is wrong, it should be changed; not broken out of spite. That IS wrong.

"You can argue about the morality of it all day long, but downloading music without paying for it IS illegal."

No.

It isn't.

That only happens in countries where their elected representatives are owned by the entertainment industry.

Not in this one (Canada), at least not at this time. We have successfully held the line against the greedy bas****s and hopefully will continue to do so.

And I never argue about morality for the simple reason that it doesn't really exist. It's either bought and paid for by those who have the wherewithal or imposed subject to the whim of the latest religious lunatic in power. I'm sure you can think of more than a few examples within your own borders.

In short, it's purely subjective.

Bull.
Sh1t.

Morality is NOT relative. It is absolute. What is wrong now, was wrong 100 years ago, and will be wrong 3 millennia from now.

This relativistic attidute just blows my mind. Just because slavery was acceptable 100 years ago DOES NOT MAKE IT RIGHT! It was never right, and never will be.

Not paying for something that the person who created it is charging for is wrong. Period.

Should they choose to give it away, fine.

It is morally wrong to not pay for something that you are supposed to pay for.

It's not enlightened, it's not new-age, it's not hip. It's immoral, childish, dishonest, and disrespectful. Justifications are simply excuses to help those people sleep at night. There is no logical justification for immoral actions.

Funny how you believe morals, ethics, and honesty can be bent to societies' whim. With ethics like that, why even bother to have them.

ROJ...I like teh way Canada is handling their IP/copyright, but I simply cannot accept the assertion that morality and ethics are subjective.

It's not a problem I have with you personally, just with that illogical belief system.

I disagree. Details may be subjective, but morality certainly isn't.

That's all I'm gonna say...

Dead on.

PhoenixPath!!

Well said.

*breathes a breath of fresh air*

Ahhhh...

NO, if you disagree with a law that is unjust then it's your moral obligation to break it.
Doing the right thing is independent of legal or illegal status.

Did you COMPLETELY miss what I said?

Breaking a law out of spite is just plain stupid. All you're going to do is screw yourself if the authorities come after you. If the law is wrong, CHANGE it. That's what democracy is for.

Am I talking to a wall?

"The 90% honest ones MORE than make those greedy ****ers an UNfair profit margin"

So the honest one's pay for the pirates music? Ahh...no.

"Don't say the words "honest" and "entertainment industry" in the same sentence - that's an oxymoron."

Cuz as we all know, if one of them is bad, so are the rest, right?

"Back to the 10%, give a little to get a lot or risk losing it all."

What? No, really...what? The Music industry should give music away to the pirates so the honest can pay them exorbitant prices for the same music? OR do you mean that lowering the prices will end piracy? God, I hope I'm reading that wrong.

As far as taping goes.. it took 60 minutes to get a 60 minutes tape, 30 if you used high-peed dubbing, and you only ended up with one copy. Now, you can rip and entire CD in 10 minutes and upload it to a P2P service distributing it to 1000s in hours.

The comparison is ridiculous.

What are they going to lose? Really? Where else are folks living in countries without levies and royatlies from blank CDRs going to get their music? Online? Pirating?

Believe it or not, the future DRM will be so incredibly restrictive that piracy will no longer be feasable. Why? What other options do they have, now?

ALL of their focus is on piracy now. This Sony issue is the proof of that. They want to end it regardless of the circumstances, and with their money, they may well succeed.

*sigh*

DRM sucks. Piracy sucks more because it is the *reason* it exists.

Hey, man.

I gotta stop reading Betanews on MGD. Makes me post in these topics.

Of course, that ain't the only thing beer makes me do, but I have a can of Oust for that.

*breaths a breath of fresh air*

*coughs*

Yeah, need more Oust.

:P

(Did I say attidute in the post above? I need new fingers, man.)

Dude, dude, dude...

Breaking a law is not, in itself, civil disobediance. And don't believe for a second that your music downloading equates you in any way, shape or form to the good folks in Boston who decided they liked their tea with salt-water.

You speak of morals, and the "right" thing.

You are right, the "right" thing is independant of the law. We like to think they are one in the same, but that is not always the case.

However, the "right" thing and the "moral" thing are tied. And no, theft, IP infringement , whatever you want to call it, is NOT moral....or right.

1) You'll always have a minority that doesn't play by the rules. Learn to live with it instead of branding all as criminals.

2) Name ONE entertainment company that isn't trying to grab consumers by the short 'n' curlies today. One. I dare ya. Now you'll say that this is as bad as the companies branding all consumers as criminal but it isn't. Why? Because unlike them, WE haven't demonstrated time and time again that we're ALL criminals. They have demonstrated time and time again that they're not only criminals (payola, etc.) but greedy and unrealistic ones to boot.

On the taping comment: I see you never noticed the vast number of bootlegs available on the street over the years. Mass distribution indeed...

On levies: If countries adopted a more logical policy regarding levies, the REAL crooks and pirates, er, entertainment companies (you know, the ones who rip off consumers with their pricing and the artists with their wonderfully restrictive contracts regarding royalties - this last from the artists themselves), wouldn't have a leg to stand on. Blame yourselves for not being intelligent enough to institute the levies.

On the concept of your pie-in-the-sky view of the future success of DRM, I have only two words to say:

Moore's Law.

That, and the massive diversity and brain trust of the internet make Draconian DRM UNfeasible and wholly laughable. It's a battle that cannot be won by companies.

Period.

So here's another scenario for you:

They'll keep plowing more and more money into this BS and to pay for it jack up prices. That in turn will lead to more people downloading music because the prices are too high.

And you think this is a solution?

Does myopia run in your family?

"Morality is NOT relative. It is absolute. What is wrong now, was wrong 100 years ago, and will be wrong 3 millennia from now."

And the myopia continues. Go read history. Then we'll resume the discussion. Let me illustrate:

The Crusades were "moral". So were the witch trials of Salem. So were the atrocities of Vlad the Impaler. So was the prohibition of homosexuality. So was the prohibition that in-laws (not genetically related) couldn't marry. So was...

And this is "forever constant?"

Um, right.

As the race continues to evolve - and also devolve - what is considered to be "morals" changes.

This isn't conjecture. It's documented history.

It is indeed wrong (forget the morality nonsense - I've already dispensed with that rubbish) to not pay for something that you should. But who decides what you should pay for? Taping a TV signal used to be free. Now companies want to lock it up. Reason? Greed. Making personal copies used to be free. Now companies want to lock that up. Reason? Greed. Have you read Sony's EULA lately? And you want to put the decision of what's right and wrong in the hands of THOSE people?

Your "argument" falls under the weight of its own inadequacies (not to mention the unbridled avarice of the companies concerned) and we're back to "he who has the gold makes the rules" or rather "he who WANTS more gold makes the rules".

Morality has nothing to do with it. Greed does.

"DRM sucks. Piracy sucks more because it is the *reason* it exists"

Oh please! (where do I even start?). If you really believe that, then I have some time-share that you might be interested in.

"1) You'll always have a minority that doesn't play by the rules. Learn to live with it instead of branding all as criminals."

Roj...really? Live with it? If that were everyone's view, why would we need police? Crime will always be here...therefore we should just live with it.

Nice.

"2) Name ONE entertainment company that isn't trying to grab consumers by the short 'n' curlies today. One. I dare ya. "

Pixar. Ever heard of 'em?

"On the taping comment: I see you never noticed the vast number of bootlegs available on the street over the years. Mass distribution indeed..."

The number of bootlegs on the streets I doubt comes anywhere near the same galactic neighborhood as the number of bootlegs downloaded off the net.

"Blame yourselves for not being intelligent enough to institute the levies."

Yeah, I'll take the blame for that. I must have missed the vote on that one.

"That, and the massive diversity and brain trust of the internet make Draconian DRM UNfeasible and wholly laughable. It's a battle that cannot be won by companies."

Optimism. Be glad you still have some.

"And you think this is a solution?"

A good one? No, not even close. But entirely possible.'

Did he insult you? Did he call you myopic? Did you really have to drop that in there? C'mon, dude....

*bleh* whatever.

"DRM sucks. Piracy sucks more because it is the *reason* it exists"

This is one person who thinks this comment was dead on. ESPECIALLY that sentence.

Anyone who says otherwise must be a pirate...

**EDIT**
Like the guy down there
\/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/

Roj? Are you awake? Still dreaming?

Teh crusades were moral? Wicth burning was moral? Vlad? Oh...my...God....

You mention they now charge for what used to be free....

Amazing...that's never happened before...

Ya know what? They can, they will, it's their right. They produce it, they distribute it, they have every right to charge for it.

Just because you used to be able to tape it doesn't mean they wanted you to be able to. Technology is now getting to the point where they can feasibly try to control it...and would ya look at that...they are.

If your argument for morality were true, and that ethics were based on the whims of society, the all-powerful majority, then DRM is moral and ethical, buddy. Draconian laws and litigiousness are the new "path to enlightenment".

Thank god I don't fall for relativism.

I see what your problem is. You're mixing up the PERCEPTION of morality with actual morality.

Sorry. Can't help you. You're too far gone.

Hit. Nail. Head.

*ding, ding*

Somebody get this man a cookie!

your well laid-out argument and stunning no-nonsense fact to back up your claims intrigue me...

Tell me, where can I subscribe to your newsletter?

Is it chocolate chip or peanut butter?

I do love a peanut butter cookie.

mmm...

Who's more at fault, Sony, Microsoft, or anti-virus companies for not catching it? I have a discussion at http://cityofrain.com -- your comments welcome.

And for the record about the RIAA; "how many times SOFTWARE APPLICATIONS..." -- that's the point you hosehead, they weren't software, they were audio CDs.

Just think: $100k*10k cd's sold = 1Billion. That doesn't seem like a hard number to get to.

Boycott Sony.

why the hell would MS or av companies be at fault for Sony being a bunch of asses?

Um... (for all of you Bush-haters; which is NOT me) it's Bush's fault!!!!....lol, jk. This is an insane argument. It's Sony's fault. They put THEIR merchandise on the shelves with the KNOWING INTENT that the software, that could EASILY be categorized as a backdoor into a PC, had many characteristics commonly associated with virii on the market for all to use/buy/etc.

If you authorize a plumber to work on your home equipment, and have to leave, the PLUMBER is responsible to lock up your house. If you get broken into, it's their fault (assuming you can prove beyond a reasonable doubt that they were at fault for leaving it unlocked). This is similar in principle to the age-old argument:
People kill people, guns don't kill people. It's all about ACCOUNTABILITY.

"RIAA president Cary Sherman has backed Sony's use of spyware rootkits and claims that other companies do it all the time."

This guy is a complete moron. Apart from the obvious reasons, he's also demonstrating a complete disregard and contempt for the new anti-spyware law and encouraging media companies to ignore it "because we're media companies and rule". Can you say "criminal prosecution"? There boys and girls, I knew you could.

That law is the first decent legislature I've seen passed in the US in over a decade.

The backlash against DRM is indeed growing - it'll reach fever pitch this holiday season.

Remember to boycott products from EVERY company that embraces DRM. They can't survive without us - always remember that.

Damn straight!

God, I think I actually like you.

Now, by boycott, you mean do without, right? You're not suggesting they download the music they want wen the laws in thier country forbid it, correct?

I'd hate to think someone became a RIAA target because of that.

RIAA BACKS SONY's DRM

RIAA president Cary Sherman has backed Sony's use of spyware rootkits and claims that other companies do it all the time.
Sherman said that music corporations have the same right to protection as movie studios, video game makers, or software companies.

He said that there was nothing unusual about technology being used to protect intellectual property. He said that you can't make an extra copy of Windows or virtually any other software. Why should CDs be any different?

The only problem he had with the Sony BMG situation was that the technology it used contained a security vulnerability.

Sherman said that Sony had handled the situation well, by backing down. He said that Sony had apologised for its mistake, ceased manufacture of CDs with that technology,and pulled CDs with that technology from store shelves.

"Seems very responsible to me. How many times that software applications created the same problem? Lots. I wonder whether they've taken as aggressive steps as Sony BMG has when those vulnerabilities were discovered, or did they just post a patch on the Internet?" Sherman said. You can read a transcript of the interview here.

Courtesy of the Inquirer.net

Anyhow, the only way to trully punish a multibillion dollar corporation is with the courts.

Once this case is done, dont forgot the lawsuit thats comming for Copyright infringement of the LAME code =)

Sounds like this guy is a real idiot who doesn't even understand what this rootkit does. Comparing it to Windows Product Activation for example? What a moron!

That's good ole' Cary Sherman for ya'.. Just Google him for all the brilliant quotes he's made in the last 2 years regarding music piracy/p2p/etc...

More proof that the people who seek power and gain it are the least deserving of it.

"Anyone who is capable of getting massive power should on no account be allowed to have it."

- Severely Mangled Douglas Adams Quote.

What it all comes down to is...

If all the loosers who stole from Sony and other media companies stopped doing it, they wouldn't have to put copy protection on their CDs and DVDs to protect their investment.

So it's your own damned fault.

Makes me think of that song by "The Eagles", "Get Over It".

I guarantee you that if it was your work that the kiddies were stealing, you would be singing a different song.

Interesting point of view, except for the fact that:
a) none of these scheme's actually stop the people who will distribute these songs as mp3's from actually doing it
b) the people who purchase cd's (i.e. don't download mp3's) are the ones who will be hit by this

So it isn't hitting "the losers who stole from Sony", it is hitting the suckers who decided to purchase from Sony.

How pathetic. Oh yes, it's all the "loosers" fault. Whether they are "losers" and steal music DOES NOT excuse what Sony did. Microsoft and Valve are two companies that use very good anti-piracy schemes that not only work well but they don't hide rootkits that screw up people's computers and open them to virus risks. Sony's DRM doesn't work worth a crap either; you can simply hold the s*** key to avoid it. Not to mention that there is no way on earth they can ever stop people from copying audio cds. It is simply not possible. So not only did Sony screw up big time, they did it for nothing. I'm just surprised that there are some losers actually defending Sony for what they did. If it was your computer that became infected or all of your data corrupt and lost forever, would you just "get over it"? I really doubt it. >:-/

You're either a troll or a shill - which is it?

Why is anyone who's views differ from yours a troll or a shill?

I mean, you're not perfect...are you? Are you GOD? Is GOD posting on BetaNews now?

Wow! How totally frigging awesome, man!

Hey, I always wanted to ask you:

Why'd you make frogs? I mean really...what purpose do they serve?

I agree that these measures would not have been taken if piracy was not an issue, but there are methods, and there are methods.

While some may be legal and have my support, this one....does not.

With this they have jumped right into the same boat as those writing malware to infect your computer. The sheer illegality of it alone confounds.

The ends do not justify the means. 1000 years of pirating and lost sales would in no way justify the invasion of MY privacy and MY right to personal property.

*I* am not a pirate. *I* do not break IP laws. The fact that they chose to infect *my* PC leaves me absolutely livid.

They keep the world from being over-populated by insects ;-) However, the 'shill' poster I believe was not referring to your post, but rather the person you were replying to ;-) PC_Tool, another great assessment of the problems facing the world (honestly). I'd have been livid if I would have been infected by Sony's malware by 'legally' purchasing their music...dang. What a way to give back to your community!

I know he wasn't replying to mine. I still felt obligated to point out the gross generalization.

You don't have a clue what a shill is do you?

He didn't say he was acting as mediator.

you should really learn the big words before you attempt to contradict them there snagglepuss.

Interesting side point. I see that, and I would agree somewhat.

Sony did exacerbate the situation by trying to take control.. and in doing so, they made a mess of things.

But that is a very good point. Well said.

Shill is a big word? Wow...get out much?

Do *you* know what it means? Really? So the guy I defended is actually paid by Sony to "act like a happy customer"? Got any proof?

Did I say anything about mediation?

I really wish I knew what the hell you were talking about...

"Exit...stage right, even."

Please.

"I mean, you're not perfect...are you?"

Sure I am. All you have to do to verify that fact is ask Me. :)

And yes My child, I am awesome. By definition.

As to frogs, they fill a Province here in GodLand, er, Canada.

To be serious for just a wee moment, you don't think that someone calling the vast majority of consumers "loosers" and thieves isn't a troll or a shill? And what color is the sky in your universe exactly?

Frogs were made to sit around drinking water all day long just waiting for someone to pick them up

Well and good.

Now consider yourself chastised, My child. Run along and be a good little DooBee...

BTW, you do realise that I'm gently tugging your chain, don't you? After all, I'm reputed to be subtle but never malicious. :) :) ;)

I always thought they were there for the squishy sound they make when you run over them.

Blue during the day, black at night, here.

"you don't think that someone calling the vast majority of consumers "loosers" and thieves isn't a troll or a shill"

NotNot here.

He expressed a valid opinion, right or wrong. To simply lump him into the "troll" or "industry shill" for doing so is just wrong.

Yeah, he may have missed the point entirely, but instead of flaming him, try explaining it to him.

*shrug*

Just a thought. YMMV.

Subtle?

Roj...you wouldn't know a subtle plan if it painted itself purple and danced naked on top of a harpischord singing, "subtle plans are here again!"

:P

BTW...that was a slightly maligned Blackadder quote, in case you missed it.

yeah... subtle...

A sunrise is less obvious IMHO.

I miss blackadder. Gonna have to go *BUY* the DVDs one of these days.

poor old baldrick....

Hey don't stop at sony... we need to spread riaa's cinnamon ring over their 'support' and some federally related bs excuse also. get this to cover up all the $10,000 fines they charged for EACH MP3 track. also include INTENT to sell for EVERY CD produced - not just sold. sony you are going to regret the day you started all this right from making your own memory stick! rip in hell riaa, mpaa, sony. they day you started nailing kids for non-commercial downloads is the day apologies got no value. time to lick your own funnel-tunnel.

This is really good news. Hit Sony in the pocketbook where it will get their attention. Now we just need to do the same for all thr RIAA. I hope Texas makes a bundle off this suit.

Hell. About damn time.

Apologies, regrets, balhblahblah...do you really think that Sony would change it's course of it's own volition?

Not unless it hurts. The consumers from Cali and NY along with the AG of Texas is a good start.

It needs to be severe enough to make future companies and CEOs think REAL hard before even thinking of pulling a stunt like this.

Sony must be held accountable for stomping on our rights to privacy and personal property.

Though isn't it interesting that Sony never really apologized? I mean, they basically just said 'Sorry for your luck', or 'sorry that you bought our CD's and can't get our poorly-written code off of your PC to prevent you from being infected by malicious viruses and have your CPU ridden around the block like a cheap little hoe'. I mean, really... Who truly believes anything that Sony has posted? Their 'fix'..??.. was just a further potential infection waiting to happen that really didn't cure ANYTHING... Gotta love this. You'd think they would learn.

- Apologies, regrets, balhblahblah...do you really think that Sony would change it's course of it's own volition?

Dunno, but have you even TRIED? NO. I suppose when your meal is wrong, you ask to speak the General manager, because going to the top is the only way something gets fixed, eh? Well the server or floor manager will do the same thing, but you don't give anyone a chance to do their job.

The General Manager is going to ask the floor manager, did you know about this? "NO". Well see what he wants, and lets take it from there..

But he is thinking why didn't you attempt to solve this through proper channels?

And your response would be? Because you are a pompous ass, and you want attention, just like the AG in Texax.

That's my point. They won't. Not until it seriously threatens their cashflow.

Wow.

If you want something done quickly, instead of dragging it on, what do you do? You go to the top. Because who's got the most power to GET it done? The guy at the top.

Does this apply to EVERY situation? No...your generalization does not apply.

As far as wanting attention, I'm sure the AG has enough, unless he's running for office. Either way, I don't know the guy.

And since you don't know me, well....I suppose your guess is as good as anyones...of course, you do seem to have some bias in that regard.

Finally, something good coming from Texas... :P

Aw, C'mon, the Cheerleaders are quite nice.

Everything's BIGGER in Tx ;-)

lmao..

Serves them right. What goes around, comes around. I like many Sony products...or at least *did*.

So your telling me, its ok for Sony to infect your computer with a rootkit, but since the admitted they really did do it, they shouldnt get sued.

If you installed a rootkit on Sony's computers do you think they wouldnt sue you? But wait at the last second you gave them a patch to remove it, That means it never happened right?

Hrmmm, I believe Sony was also one of the first to start sueing mp3 user's. So if an mp3 downloader simply admits they did it, Sony wouldnt sue them?

http://www.mp3newswire.n...ies/5002/internet2.html

What comes around goes around.

Yes, so if you go into Bestbuy, and they install a virus on your machine, you think they deserve to get sued? What if it was every best buy in Texas.. For those people that didn't get satisfaction from either the store manager or Best Buy corporate, they would make amends.

Taking them to Court first crack out of the bag, is not only irresponsible, its not even prudent. The courts are going to ask to see what documentation they have that showed they tried to work something out with Sony.. When they see that all they did was file a lawsuit it will get kicked out. a lawsuit is designed to protect the citizens AFTER the participants haven't been fully satisfied. They didn't even give Sony a fighting chance.

I am not defending Sony. I agree they did wrong, they screwed up.. ok, so what. Make them pay, make them fix the problem, give free hardware, whatever.. but just taking them to court when Sony hasn't even been given a chance to rectify the situation, is an example of greed.

Ok rijp why dont you tell that to the RIAA. They are suing ppl all over the place for a minimum of 3000 dollars on first offense. They dont give them a warning they just sue.

Therefore Sony being a part of the RIAA deserves every last lawsuit that comes their way.

Not to mention in the not so distant future, a COPYRIGHT infringement SUIT.. OH YEAH THAT ONE IS GONA HURT.

"work something out"!?

I'm really curious. What is your alternative suggestion?

He doesn't have one.

He seems to constantly yammer, "FIX IT" and "WORK IT OUT"

But never has anything worth saying to actually *do* something about it.

Well...sony did violate the Texas' Consumer Protection Against Computer Spyware Act of 2005, but earlier comments are right--lawsuits should be a LAST RESORT, not a first one. I don't know the situation in this case though--is this the AG's first response or has he spoken with sony in attempts to resolve and sony shot him down?

Sony just gave me the run around for about 4 days of phone calls and blamed everyone else.

If it happened when my AG contacted em about it too, then I say sue the @#$%! out of 'em, Greg.

Well that was my point. I don't think they did. The AG is trying to s*** his weight..

Normally I'd agree.

But a taste of their own (RIAA) medicine is poetic justice.

Sue them into submission. They don't care about customers, but this is near and dear to their hearts. It will cost lots of money no matter the outcome.

Um..

Again, what the hell does RIAA have to do with this?

Yeah, the RIAA has absolutely nothing to do with this. BUT....

http://www.pcw.co.uk/vnu...d-praises-sony-root-kit

I thought this was a good opportunity to add a note about them. Basically, the head of the RIAA praised Sony for putting the rootkit DRM on their CDs and said the only problem was the fact it had a security vulnerability.

The RIAA have nothing to do with the CD problems, but they're still sticking their oar in!

Um, before you go getting all sharp-tongued with him:

http://yro.slashdot.org/...pl?sid=05/11/21/1232207
http://www.boingboing.ne...aa_prez_lots_of_co.html

lmao..

quoting slashdot...now if that isn't the funniest thing I've ever seen.

Yes, they, and my mother, and possibly even my dog, have commented on this.

Does their stance suprise anyone? Doubtful.

Does a RIAA troll/flamewar belong in this topic? Definately not.

No the funniest thing we have seen is you spouting babble that is completely and utterly incoherent because you talk out of your derrier.

Would you actually read the post? Or are you so opinionated that whatever anyone else says, doesn't concern you? He said it was relevant due to Sony's involvement. And I agree with him. You are voted off the island..

So whatever your comment is, it has no relevance. Have a nice day, someplace else.

He is a wannabe, he isn't all that sharp, he likes to pretend..

you give him waaay too much credit.

Did you read the post?

"But a taste of their own (RIAA) medicine is poetic justice."

Pleas tell me how is RIAA tasting their own poetic justice? Did Sony buy out the RIAA? No?

lmao...

Wow, dude.

Did I, like, run over your dog, or something?

HAhahahahahahahaha...

Its the American way sue sue sue, my coffes to hot sue, this mouse made my hand hurt sue.
Thats why the USA going down hill we spend tomuch time on dumb crap, and not enough time on good crap. I think Sony Japan owned bizz should just give a nice shinny laptop to all the people infected:)

Oh give me a damn break. There is no way, this Lawyer even TRIED to work things out with sony, the ink isn't even dry on the last posting about Sony finding a problem with removing the rootkit.

Why is everyone in this country obsessed with suing over stuff, what happened to TRYING to get the problem fixed, before we jump right into the courts, this is why it takes 5 years to convict a murderer, because there is much stuff clogging the system.

You're right of course, we really shouldn't keep our murderers held up in court by something as silly as our rights to privacy and personal property.

I would like to be the first to give up all my personal rights so that Joe Murderer/Rapist can get through court in a week.

Anyone else?

Didn't think so.

BTW: What's your suggestion to "fix" the problem, and how do you propose to push it through all the red-tape and bureaucracy without involving the courts?

Umm.. We are a litigious society. We sue first, ask questions later, and proceed from there.

So sony made a mistake. Now the Attorney General is involved, why? To make a name for himself. Has sony been given a fair chance to rectify the situation? NO

They installed a root kit, everyone raise your hand that has NEVER made a mistake before!... Yeah, that's what I thought.

So we sue Sony over what? What damage has it caused, suing should be a last resort, not a first initiative.

I don't have any suggestions to "fix" the problem, but suing a company 5 minutes after the problem has been found is not the answer either.

So are you part of the group that suing Sony? Did you have a rootkit on your machine? NO?

Ok so you shut the hell up, google jr.

"Umm.. We are a litigious society. We sue first, ask questions later, and proceed from there."

Not denying this.

"So sony made a mistake. Now the Attorney General is involved, why? "

Because they broke a few laws? Don't know about you, but that seems like a damn good reason to me.

"They installed a root kit, everyone raise your hand that has NEVER made a mistake before!"

Hackers of the world unite. You can now make all the "mistakes" you want. Yeah, whatever.

"What damage has it caused,"

Have you read any of the problems caused by this? Non-functioning CD-ROM Drives, instability, backdoor left wide open for viruses... Plenty of damage, if you ask me.

"So are you part of the group that suing Sony? Did you have a rootkit on your machine? NO?"

Am I part of the group? Unfirtunately, I live in neither Cali, nor NY.

Did I get the rootkit in question? Yes. Of course, I have since formatted and reinstalled windows. I have also tossed the CD.

Google Jr? That's clever...

A mistake? Writing and distributing a rootkit that calls home on 52 CDs for 8 months was a mistake?

I would venture a guess as to where you work, but then I would be just like you.

Well....there are mistakes...and then there are mistakes.

This was definately one of the latter.

Sony is one of the larger member companies of the RIAA (Recording Industry Association of America) and they have been buying other recording industry companies, that is how the RIAA is relevant to the discussion.

The blanket statement that it is illegal to download copyrighted music without paying for it is incorrect, but that is what the RIAA wants you to believe. There is plenty available that the copyright owner allows you to download without paying for it.

In the Texas case, Sony broke a law and frequently that results in being taken to court immediately. In the other cases they are class action suits. They typically indicate a large corporate entity has run roughshod over consumers' rights.

Does Sony deserve this? Well first they implemented an ineffective DRM scheme which can be avoided with hardly any effort. Part of the CD price is to pay for that. Then they hide the DRM with a rootkit. According to Sony and the rest of the RIAA and the US DCMA law, DRM is legit, so why hide it? Either the DRM or their media player has spyware like actions. The DRM enforces restrictions which may not be in the spirit of the fair use doctrine. There was no uninstaller on the CD. The rootkit is buggy and the DRM is buggy. The rootkit hide any file starting with $sys$ so there were viruses created using filenames starting with $sys$. The first uninstaller only uninstalled the rootkit, the DRM remained. The uninstaller was only available with a patch/service pack (the second since May). The uninstaller used a risky process to remove the rootkit. The second uninstaller would remove the DRM also. Both utilized an activeX control. That dictated using IE. The activeX control once installed, remained and allowed other activeX controls to be installed without user notification even if they were not from 1st4internet or Sony. Sony is not taking measures to recall all CDs with the flawed software, only those unsold and those sold for the relative few who know to ask for a replacement. And finally both the DRM and media player contain evidence that copyrighted software components may have ben incorporated without authorization of the owner. All this can be validated from more authoritative sources than me. Then you have all the additional collateral damages caused by these irresponsible actions. I think Sony just might deserve this.

"The blanket statement that it is illegal to download copyrighted music without paying for it is incorrect, but that is what the RIAA wants you to believe. There is plenty available that the copyright owner allows you to download without paying for it."

You are right, of course. I suppose for folks liek you we should now specify "restricted" copyright? I mean, since everyone else seems to be able to take that as obvious....

I mean, if we were talking about unrestricted copyright...well, we wouldn't really be talking about it,. now would we?

I think Sony needs to get sued for these reasons:

1. False advertising. These "CDs" are on the shelves next to non-DRM "CDs". If a music disc has software on it, it is not a Compact Disc anymore. It does not meet Compact Disc standards.

2. They install the DRM software BEFORE you agree to the EULA. So you have no chance of opting out. Yes, you can choose not to use it, but the damnage has been done.

3. The average user is not smart enough to know you to secure there pc again. Most don't even know that holding down the s*** key while inserting the music disc, will temporary disable autorun.

Let's just kill Sony, they don't make music, artists make music. Sony just distributes it in a very old fashioned way. Now they're criminals too. Bye Sony, it was nice knowing you and your walkmans, but now we have iPods and internet, so it's time for you to go.