RSSThe Mac Comeback Continues as Board Responds to Jobs Charges
By Scott M. Fulton, III | Published April 26, 2007, 3:53 PM
Just prior to its quarterly earnings report to analysts on Wednesday, Apple Inc. released some typically astounding figures, and one atypical surprise: Net quarterly profit growth at the end of fiscal second quarter 2007 is now nearly 88% annually, at $770 million on revenue of $5.26 billion.
In other words, Apple is now earning close to double what it earned at this time last year, on revenue that's only just under 21% better. That's a sign of a much stronger company.
Now, for the surprise: You'd think the reason for that strength is the iPod's continued growth. Sure, iPod sales growth is now 24% annually. But the hero of the second quarter is about to make its entrance, and its opening line is, "Hello, I'm a Mac."
Apple shipped 1,517,000 Macintosh computers during Q2 - 36% more than in Q2 2006. This shows that the switch to Intel didn't lead to just a seasonal bump, but a continued growth pattern. How does that compare? At the end of the fourth calendar quarter of last year, the #5 ranked PC supplier on iSuppli's list, Toshiba, shipped 2.45 million PCs worldwide. With Apple at 1.52 million (by Apple's figures), all of a sudden, it's not far behind.
In an attempt to put the bad news behind it early, Apple's board of directors - which includes Google CEO Eric Schmidt and former US Vice President Al Gore - issued a statement in response to former Apple CFO Fred Anderson's claim Tuesday that CEO Steve Jobs okayed an inaccurately dated stock options dispensation for the board.
"We are not going to enter into a public debate with Fred Anderson or his lawyer," the board's statement reads. "Steve Jobs cooperated fully with Apple's independent investigation and with the government's investigation of stock option grants at Apple. The SEC investigated the matter thoroughly and its complaint speaks for itself, in terms of what it says, what it does not say, who it charges, and who it does not charge. We have complete confidence in the conclusions of Apple's independent investigation, and in Steve's integrity and his ability to lead Apple."
3:45 pm ET April 26, 2007 - While a statement on the Jobs investigation was not part of Apple executives’ prepared remarks during their analysts’ call on Wednesday, the first question from analysts was about the board of directors’ statement, and Apple CFO Peter Oppenheimer’s response seemed somewhat prepared anyway:
“The Board put out its statement today to express confidence in what we have said and done. The Board said that Steve [Jobs] cooperated fully with Apple’s independent investigation and with the government’s investigation of stock option grants at Apple. The SEC investigated the matter thoroughly, and its complaint speaks for itself in terms of what it says, what it does not say, who it charges, and who it does not charge, and the Board has expressed its complete confidence in the conclusion of Apple’s independent investigation and in Steve’s integrity and his ability to lead the company.”
That was the only serious discussion of the matter throughout the entire conference, as analysts turned their attention to matters such as gross margin. While the company’s gross margin rose in the last quarter, it rose to only 36% - which is not all that good for a company that, in every other respect, is doing so well. Because Apple doesn’t give a breakdown on gross margin, it’s difficult to say whether the relatively low margin can be blamed on the Mac or on the iPod. And in the future, with AppleTV and iPhone to think about, guessing the breakdown will be even more difficult.
But analysts hunted for clues anyway, as Oppenheimer predicted next month’s gross margin would actually decline to between 27 and 28%. “Looking forward, we are likely to see other factors which will drive gross margin down, such as a different commodity environment or product mix,” he said, referring to that new four-tier product line replacing the current two-tier line. “We do not see the current gross margin levels as sustainable, and don’t want you to count on them.”
Later, though, Oppenheimer revealed some key clues anyway. Lower projected revenue for the next quarter, he said, would be due to seasonal factors. The June quarter is typically down even though that’s when schools tend to purchase new Macs, and the reason for that is because sales to schools drives Macs’ average selling prices (ASPs) down.
For those who think Apple reaps a huge premium on Macintosh sales, there’s your first clue.
Not long afterwards came another one: “The corporate gross margin was over 35%, which exceeded our guidance,” Oppenheimer remarked, “and iPod was key in achieving that result.” If he’s saying what we think he’s saying, Apple’s multi-component deal with Samsung for iPod parts such as flash memory and DSP chips may be paying off. That’s where the margin is.
But compensating for that problem, Apple COO Tim Cook told analysts, was the fact that the overall Mac market growth worldwide is 36% annually, with 36% growth in the US and 38% growth in Europe. The company began the quarter with three to four weeks’ worth of Macs in the channel, and ended the quarter the same capacity, meaning the company is scaling up production to meet demand, and that warehouses and retailers are neither overstocked nor understocked – an almost perfect market situation for a brand that can now be considered once again a principal factor in the global PC market.
Those Mac vs PC ads have everyone's panties in a twist... LOL
Does it hit a little to close to home? Awwwww poor babies.
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|I see the exact same thing on other forums... Those Mac PC Ads sure hit the nail on the head even if it does piss off some fanboys..LOL
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|Yeah, yeah, the Mac is gaining market share, whatever. I don't really care that much, but great for them I guess. I just wish they would stop with those idiotic and misleading ads of Mac vs. PC. All they're doing is alienating everyone who is even the least bit software/hardware savvy (the analogies they present are obviously skewed ore flat out wrong) and attracting the computer illiterate. Is that what Steve Jobs really wants? A bunch of dumb a** computer illiterates afraid of PC viruses and confused by a mouse that has two buttons on it. Seriously, I'm starting to hate those Mac tards in the ad as much as I hate the "Can you hear me now?" guy. Enough already. Find a better way to attract customers, without lying and misleading them.
First they tell you it's Mac vs. PC, but then they proceed to attack Microsoft and Windows directly. Give me a break. Of course Windows has the most viruses and malware, because it's the number one platform. If Linux were number one, then most exploits would be for Linux. I know some of you would have the urge to say something dumb like "but Linux is impenetrable!" *yawn*
To The Dave:
What does Steve Jobs being a cool guy have to do with Mac hardware and software? I could argue that Bill Gates is a cool guy, therefore you should only buy Microsoft products. Gates and his family donate hundreds of millions of dollars each year to schools, hospitals, medical research, etc. but nobody cares about that. They just figure, Bill Gates is the riches guy on the planet and makes some crappy operating system and office suite, so let's all hate him for it.
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|I completely agree. However linux is open source so tons of people are always messing with it, and any exploits are always plugged. The only thing saving apple is the Ipod.
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|See with people messing with it can also cause more issues too though, when you have all these different viewpoints in fixing something and not one unified way there is bound to be someone's fix will albeit inadvertently mess up another.
Until Linux decides what it really wants to be its going to stay a niche market
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|Steve Jobs is a cool guy.
He could take a crap right in the middle of the street in broad daylight and I would still buy Apple computers.
People are just mad because he kicks so much booty.
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|its not that you dumb one, its because they are more expensive
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|It's amazing how quickly any Macintosh thread derails into a debate about market share.
It seems pretty clear to me that the Mac will never become the dominant platform, but that market dominance has nothing to do with the long-term viability of the Macintosh or Apple.
Nor has Apple ever made a claim that the Mac is the absolute cheapest computing platform for entry.
And despite Tool's propensity for finding some component built whitebox cobbled together in some Zimbabwean hut for $5 less than a turnkey model, among all retail turnkey computers, the Mac is very competitive price wise.
Oh, and while we are addressing all of the cliches treated as news with every freaking thread, Steve Jobs is an egotistical @ss and Microsoft is the scourge of the earth.
Can we all agree on that, and move on to talk about something interesting?
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|It's amazing how quickly any Macintosh thread derails into a debate about market share.
It seems pretty clear to me that the Mac will never become the dominant platform, but that market dominance has nothing to do with the long-term viability of the Macintosh or Apple
Actually, I see it as *the* reason to debate the long-term viability. Apple has already told us that the iPod and iPhone are more important to them.
Why? Market share = revenue.
When I see the Mac's market-share I ask: How long before they stop trying? How long before they realize the resources they are devoting to this could be put to much more profitable use elsewhere?
I'm amazed you don't ask the same questions.
and despite Tool's propensity for finding some Top of the Line, retail components put together by himself for hundreds less than a turnkey model
Fixed that for ya... (If you have a point to make, make it without changing the facts, eh?)
Can we all ... move on to talk about something interesting?
Bought the Mandriva PowerPack last weekend for an old (3 years) HP laptop we've got laying around here. Haven't attempted the install it yet. Anyone care to wager on whether or not it'll work?
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|Oh the angst!
Gee, and when will MS fall from grace or when will the US cease to be a major economic and political player.
Yup, all major sources of worry. I guess... Yawn...
I don't really care, as they have no significant impact upon me accomplishing my work in the foreseeable future. And that's why I buy a particular machine, to better enable me to complete a task.
And unlike far too many here, I do not define my self by a tool that I employ. I am not my car, nor am I the defined by the brand of jeans I wear.
And the irony is that I use many very narrow market share products to great advantage!
And I guess Lawrence Berkeley should be very concerned that the RS6000SP complex they employ is a niche product! Oh my! That must certainly limit their functionality and cost them sleep!
The Porsche GT3 doesn't outsell the Toyota Corolla! Nor does the Syncardia CardioWest temporary Total Artificial Heart outsell the hoola hoop. But I have a feeling a few folks could care less. That makes it no less useful.
So your angst over when the world will end aside, market share as an determinant measure of usefulness is an infantile consideration.
Productivity is not defined by how many other people use the machine. Some of us don't care. Besides, those other's who we should care so much about, aren't contributing anything useful to my goals either.
But its instructive to know that you seem to think that such is the case.
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|As a PC user for almost 2 decades I understand the desire to use a mac. However the marketing drives me nuts, and I'm drawn personally to linux variants. (Although professionally I admin windows boxen.)
I simply would feel like a marketing fool for falling for/supporting the inane Marketing speil coming out of Cupertino. Apple's smugness, hipness, design drives me batty. At the same time I can recommend it to others because it's obvious that the PC model (AV/spyware/definition based security model) is *very* broken, and Linux isn't a real alternative for people that just want to get their stuff done without figuring out what the computer wants them to do.
Strangely, whenever I recommend to someone griping about Microsoft to go get a mac and stop bugging me about it, they sort've shrug off my suggestion as if it's an impossibility. Strange. I guess people have gotten comfortable with paying several taxes for MS software.
I heart ubuntu and the strides it's making. There is no way it's a windows replacement yet for the majority of user groups out there though.
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|The bottom line here is Apple has some incredibly good marketing schemes. Ones that are proving themselves to work and work well. I'm a PC user, but even I enjoy the "Hello, I'm a Mac" commercials. They're simple, funny, and make PC's look bad. Take that marketing scheme and implant it into the minds of millions of people who aren't computer savvy and revenue is sure to increase.
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|Rant all you want, it doesnt make a s*** of difference. Have a nice frustrating day.
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|He makes a point, the average joe computer user who has the extra money and doesn't mind starting over have moved to macs because of viruses and spyware. A lot of us have never had these problems so there is no difference.
Use whatever you want but macs are still a very small fraction of the market.
Try releasing OSX for a typical pc, do you really think apple would continue to sell their computers? They use the same hardware now the only difference being a bios setting.
(fixed)
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|most average joe people have moved to macs because of viruses and spyware.
Well, that definitely explains Mac OSX's 2% market share... I find your definition of most intriguing. :p
I know what you meant, but it didn't come out that way. It's probably true though, most folks who moved to Mac probably did so because of viruses and spyware. Which is probably the best reason for such people to do so.
Thank goodness the Mac is so invulnerable to such things... ;)
http://www.betanews.com/...abilities&sort=date
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|"do you really think apple would exist as making their pcs then as they do use the same hardware now the only difference being a bios setting"
What? English plz?
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|Your right, they arnt.
Your link doesnt work.
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|6%, and growing!
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|Back it up, or don't even bother.
http://www.onestat.com/h...stems-market-share.html
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|Works fine. Click it, don't cut& paste it.
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|Tool, you disappoint me.
This propensity to try to make a case that th Mac is just as susceptible to malware is absurd.
And the way you do it illustrates you misunderstanding of the environment.
So you read a fatal flaw as every buffer overflow that Apple or MS fixes, as that is what the majority of the fixes are.
But you simply stop there, and unfortunately, that is far too soon.
In Windows that is usually sufficient for the malware to compromise not only the immediate environment, but to compromise the entire system and all accessible resources. Thus you either end up with corrupted data, a zombied machine, or both.
Not so with the Mac. Having learned a thing or two from the UNIX legacy, the system is completely sandboxed. "So what" Tool says. But the critical feature of this is in the event that you DO get a virus, it does not traverse to the other resources nor take over the machine. The worst that happens in the protected environment is that the app crashes. Whoopee! tragedy. Doom and gloom. And you can either repair it (as there was Anti-virus available for the Mac - it was just that NO ONE bought it!), or, you delete it and restore the app.
Now compare that to the potential for a totally corrupted system, not even considering the potential to use that system as a nexus to compromise the associated network.
Let's see, and since you like to downplay the need for such concerns, tell me what the main focus and impetus for Vista was, aside from the eye candy and desktop apps that every Windows person can't live without?
So cite searches fixing what are predominately buffer overflows, but while you are at it, not how many of the fixes are for 3rd party apps, and especially the MS apps written for the Mac. Oopps!
Innuendo is cute. But substance is better.
Face it, for whatever reason one wants to ascribe, OSX is inherently more secure than Windows. Does that solve all of the world's problems? No. But it is a fact. And it is due to basic design factors largely inherited from the BSD heritage, not percentage market share as some ignorant of OS design maintain.
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|even windows ME is beating linux, lmfao
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|I've been backing this up numerous times in postings on this site over the last 6-9 months or so. While I recognize that it's possible to find articles claiming marketshare almost anywhere, most of the articles I've seen have hinted at about 6%. Perhaps more relevently, Wall St. has acknowledged that growth, and more importantly, the rapid rate of change of their growth.
But for example, see
http://arstechnica.com/j...ple.ars/2007/03/02/7296
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|Thank you. I have not seen anyone post that link here before.
More recent than my stats.
I went to the site that Ars got it from, and I can't tell if they're US only, or global. Any idea?
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|You can argue how well protected the OS is when there are no exploits out to prove you wrong quite well.
I'm sorry I disappointed you. I'll try harder next time. :p
Untested=unproven. Still, a large part of me hopes that either it never gets tested, or your lack of faith in the hacking community (marketing community?) proves correct. People need an option that isn't under assault.
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|Actually, I've found the 6% claim on a number of sites over the last 6-9 months...and have posted those links on this site from time to time to refute the claim that Apple's marketshare is tiny and/or dwindling. In general, the big analyst companies (Gardner, Jupiter Research and others) have all been saying 6% for some time. More importantly, the rate of growth and the rate of the rate of growth of the Mac is a much more significant indicator of what's happening.
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|Global, or US?
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|I don't know - but I'm sure you can look it up as easily as I could!
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|Couldn't find it on the first page you gave me, which is odd, because that's kinda important when talking stats...
*shrug*
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|It's good to know the market is wrong! I'm sure that all those people who bought Apples will feel quite silly after reading your comment.
(sigh)
--->...until then it's overpriced and underpowered compared to what I can get from the Windows camp.
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|Excellent trolling.
Post a reply outside of the thread in an attempt to avoid that nasty "context" issue, and then make asinine comments about how ridiculous it sounds, ya know...out of context.
all those people who bought Apples will feel quite silly
lmao...
I hope no-one's buying Apples now. They're ancient. They should probably think about upgrading to a PC...
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|Well, you missed the point then. These days, the price differential is not that much for typical machines.
Further, I bet that your "comparable" price did not include the cost of Windows OS. Further, I suspect you're also ignoring the wealth of software that comes with every Mac (I'm thinking of stuff like iLife, iPhoto, iMovie, iWeb, iDVD, iTunes, GarageBand), all of which are integrated and make it TRIVAL even for newbies to do pretty sophisticated stuff OUT OF THE BOX.
Certainly, if you wanted to argue Linux vs Mac, the discussion would be a little different but for the mass market, the Apple environment is very very compelling these days (try it!)
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|moved...
and as far as being "overpriced and underpowered", see below...
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|That'd be because the last time Microsoft bundled anything they got sued.
Internet Explorer (though they eventually got away with it), Windows Media Player, etc.
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|Moved
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|No.
MS got sued over IE because it was integrated into the system so that 3rd party browsers could not use all of the functionality that IE could. They got sued because they were activly and purposely preventing 3rd party browser competition. Check out the articles next time you are doing research.
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|You're right, I didn't include the $195 for Vista Ultimate. That would bring it up to just under $800.
Further, I suspect you're also ignoring the wealth of software that comes with every Mac (I'm thinking of stuff like iLife, iPhoto, iMovie, iWeb, iDVD, iTunes, GarageBand)
None of which I will use, but would be forced to pay for in the price of any Mac.
the Apple environment is very very compelling these days (try it!)
I have 2. I have a Dual 1.5Ghz PowerPC G5 as well as an Intel Macbook (okay, the Macbook isn't mine, it's the companies, but I own the company, so...)
The G5 is a piece of junk. Yes, it's outdated, but a comparable single-processor WinTel system kicked it's a** in almost every way.
The Winbook is cute. It also would have cost us quite a bit (comparatively) to get it to authenticate on our AD Domain and to function at least marginally as well on our network as a workstation. At least it makes a decent machine for business trips, but even then, I'd rather have my Dell D620.
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|Nobody asked you to buy one - I'm simply pointing out what you get if you buy one...and based on the many families with whom I've spoken, they are all thrilled to death with their Macs, compared to what they had before (recent vintage XP, etc)
--->None of which I will use, but would be forced to pay for in the price of any Mac.
Well, I'm still using an old Dual G4 for my music composition and it works wonderfully, far better than a much more recent Windows box with ASIO, for example. So I guess it depends on what/how you measure.
--->The G5 is a piece of junk. Yes, it's outdated, but a comparable single-processor WinTel system kicked it's a** in almost every way.
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|the Apple environment is very very compelling these days (try it!)
Nobody asked you to buy one
...so which is it?
Your defense of the additional cost was programs I will never use. Since I can only speak for myself, I did. Sorry if that was not what you were looking for.
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|Actually, I'm not looking for anything other than making sure that the FACTS are there.
Nor am I defending the additional cost based on programs - I was simply pointing out that if you're trying to do a cost comparison by comparing every piece of the system, then you need to compare EVERYTHING, not just the parts YOU like.
I don't use those programs either, preferring the more professional versions (Aperture, Final Cut). But the reality is that value isn't just about adding up the cost of the bits of hardware. The total experience is worth something too. And as someone who uses Windows, Linux, and OS X on a daily basis, I continue to find OS X to be the best environment overall FOR MY NEEDS (i.e, also speaking for myself).
On the other hand, since I switched my family from Windows to Macs a few years ago, I have saved myself many many hours of effort because there aren't as many maintenance and support problems. Based on the value of my own time (which can be quantified, not just ego [grin]), the Macs have paid for themselves many times over. And that alone can justify the added cost (where applicable) for many people.
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|I was simply pointing out that if you're trying to do a cost comparison by comparing every piece of the system, then you need to compare EVERYTHING, not just the parts YOU like.
Okay, point taken. You weren't necessarily arguing against my point, but presenting another tack.
The total experience is worth something too. And as someone who uses Windows, Linux, and OS X on a daily basis
Agreed. But that depends *greatly* on the person in question. Additional functionality means squat if you're never going to use it. But I'm not the only person, and others probably will use it.
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|Maybe - I think the more general point I was trying to make is that value of something is not generally just the sum of the physical parts that go into making it. If it was, then the value of the Mona Lisa would be the same as the value of a painting my 5 year old made, i.e, the cost of the canvas and the paint. Intellectual property is worth something.
Certainly, commoditization drives costs down, and that's a (probably the most significant) reason you can put together the parts you need to make a PC at a cheap price.
Apple has managed so far to prevent their environment from being commoditized, hence the reason they resist making OS X generally available for the PC and as long as people can see value in Apple/OS X, they will continue to be willing to pay a premium. That's just how the market works and it SHOULD work like that.
And yes, you're right that it depends greatly on the person. No matter what, the value of something really does ultimately depend on what people are willing to pay for it. In the case of the Mac, people have demonstrated they're willing to pay a premium (with respect to some PCs) and I think there's good reason for it, based on my own experience.
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|What I am curious about though is if someone does not want to use garageband, iphoto and the other apps Mac bundles can you uninstall them or are they integrated in?
(serious question because I do not know)
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|You can just delete them if you don't want them. When I said they were integrated, I just meant that they know how to talk to each other, which eases the workflow (e.g, if you're making a movie, iMovie will let you see all the photos you have stored in iPhoto, all the music you have in iTunes, and it knows how to startup iDVD)
Similarly, iPhoto knows how to send images by email, or generate a web presentation and publish them through iWeb.
But there are no OS dependencies that would cause the Mac to break if you deleted those apps.
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|The biggest reason for Mac's latest ascemt is the same that is giving all other OS a boost / chance: MS's delay in getting 64 bit to the masses.
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|I'm glad the Apple is growing, but what really pisses me off is when Apple runs a smear campaign on PC users while Apple fanboys, look on every technology news website for a story about Microsoft, then go in and spam the comments section with how much they hate PC's and anything Microsoft, needlessly screaming about Apples superiority as if Apple cannot be hacked or viruses cannot be written for it.
it gets quite annoying to have to hear people hate when all you want to do is read conversation from mature people.
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|Thank you for an apt illustration of the very point you seek to make.
The irony is, it isn't an Apple fanboy rant...
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|Moved
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|"In other words, Apple is now earning close to double what it earned at this time last year, on revenue that's only just under 21% better. That's a sign of a much stronger company."
More precisely, that is a sign of people paying a premium for the same or very similar products, simply due to the brand name.
In other words, everything is more over priced this year, than last year.
Latz, SB
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|Cute, but factually vapid.
This is simply a retread repetition of a 15 year old rant (despite the fact that 15 years ago the ~$300 premium paid for integrated graphics, audio and plug and play which could not be duplicated on the PC for the same price).
Gee... And you missed the other half of the classic rant that Macs are incompatible because they adopted some arcane technology called TCP/IP in 1993...
And if your rant has any basis, it implies that the price of the units has gone up a proportionate amount in the last year? Do us a favor and share the source of the drugs you are using...
Macs are very competitive in the marketplace, and in the case of high-end desktops, they are much cheaper than much of the competition.
But now you get to drop the old nonsensical rants and choose on the basis of basic functionality.
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|Let me know when I can get a Mac with 2GB RAM, a 512MB video card, 500GB storage, and an AMD X2 64 4400+ (or equiv Intel) CPU for under $700 and I'll jump ship in a heartbeat.
...until then it's overpriced and underpowered compared to what I can get from the Windows camp.
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|Ah, here it is! ;-)
Let's see, Dell offers a
Dimension C521 for $788 with a AMD Athlon™ 64 X2 Dual-Core 4000+
Or a Dimension E520 for $819 with a Intel Core2 Duo Processor E4300 (1.8GHz, 800 FSB)
Both with:
OS:Genuine Windows Vista™ Home Premium
Video: NVIDIA GeForce 6150 LE Integrated Graphics GPU
Memory: 1GB DDR2 SDRAM at 667MHz- 2DIMMs
Hard Drive: 250GB Serial ATA Hard Drive (7200RPM) w/DataBurst Cache™
You may be able to find your deal with a BigLots whitebox with an ECS motherboard, but even Dell's best deal falls substantially short of that.
And if that unit does what you need, buy it!
But the fact that you can find some cut rate model for less than what another retailer sells a machine for does not render every other vendor deficient.
The fact is that Apple is relatively comparable to mainstream PC vendor prices, some a bit higher, some a bit lower.
Not bad for a manufacturer who makes NO claims as to being a budget manufacturer and who in fact they consider themselves a premium manufacturer.
And I hope that your Yugo is serving you well.
But that doesn't render a Kia, let alone a Toyota or a Honda as being 'overpriced'.
But nice try... ;-)
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|Actually, you are only partially correct.
Yes, if you buy a stock pc that price would be correct, he's not pricing a stock machine, those are parts or barebone systems which can be purchased significantly cheaper at new egg, tiger direct or your local computer shop.
Since apple is based on wintel they conceivably use the same parts, but you cannot build an apple pc from the ground up yet.
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|Actually, we credited that:
"You may be able to find your deal with a BigLots whitebox with an ECS motherboard, but even Dell's best deal falls substantially short of that."
So, if you want to assemble the parts, build the unit, and support it yourself, we are not talking the same thing as a retail unit either, are we?
That is rather like comparing a turnkey house to a credit card and the directions to a lumber yard!
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|which I believe was his point, its under the assumption most people that post here have an idea how to build their own systems and would not bother buying name brand pcs.
Only problem is Tiger Direct and New Egg have more then bottom line parts (which if you went with bottom line parts the price would be cheaper then 700)
They sell all grades and again you cannot freely swap out parts in a mac and once you can build a mac from the ground up and have osx running on a pc without any hacks why would you buy a mac then?
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|Let's see, Dell offers a
Dimension C521 for $788 with a AMD Athlon™ 64 X2 Dual-Core 4000+
Or a Dimension E520 for $819 with a Intel Core2 Duo Processor E4300 (1.8GHz, 800 FSB)
Both with:
OS:Genuine Windows Vista™ Home Premium
Video: NVIDIA GeForce 6150 LE Integrated Graphics GPU
Memory: 1GB DDR2 SDRAM at 667MHz- 2DIMMs
Hard Drive: 250GB Serial ATA Hard Drive (7200RPM) w/DataBurst Cache™
Nope. Doesn't cut it.
My system isn't whitebox either. Same Mainboard HP is currently, using(asus). XFX video card, and seagate hard drives.
Definitely not cut-rate.
You're right, it's not mainstream. But guess what? There are a *lot* of folks out there who build their own. You cannot go around saying Macs are comparable to windows boxes without taking those folks into account.
You simply cannot "build your own" Mac (legally).
Sorry, I've got what amounts to a top of the line HP (reliable, well known parts including a mainboard HP uses themselves) with a few extras for much less than HP or Apple could ever sell a comparable unit. Until you can include home-builders in your price comparison, it falls short of being relevant.
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|I don't believe that for one moment. I would bet that the percentage of people who build their own machines compared to the total number of machines (or people) out there is minuscule.
--->But guess what? There are a *lot* of folks out there who build their own. You cannot go around saying Macs are comparable to windows boxes without taking those folks into account.
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|"most people that post here have an idea how to build their own systems and would not bother buying name brand pcs."
Really?
Most people here still don't know that a Mac is a "PC".
Go back and read the majority of the fanboy posts and then tell me they have a clue what the #%$@ they are talking about! And, oh brother, another post telling us how technologically erudite folks are here! :-O
I understand both PCTool's and your points, and in exceptional cases you Can save some money. But they are the exceptions!
And it is valid to compare a retail unit to another retail unit! I mean, if we want to take your example further, mine beats your whitebox because a relative got it for me for my birthday. And gee whiz, you both conveniently fail to valuate the value of your time to order, assemble and configure your cheap unit..or maybe you have! ;-) ;-)
So there, my 'gifted' machine is much cheaper than your whitebox or home brewed unit which is relatively ridiculously expensive!
So much for making equitable mass market statements.
So what is really killing Dell are the home builds! Now THAT'S news! But keep citing exceptional cases in order to make a generalized conclusion. And then learn he basics of logic. Citing an exceptional case does not invalidate the statistically large sampling that generates the retail market generalization.
You guys can do better. (And PCTool can be funnier! ;-) Get to work buddy! ;-)
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|lmao...
Yeah, that must be why there are so few places around selling bare-bones units and system building parts...
/sarcasm
Believe what you want, man.
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|Wow...
nd it is valid to compare a retail unit to another retail unit! I
That'd be wonderful! If that had been at *all* what I was doing in the first place.
You may recall my first post *pointing out* that I was talking about a home-built. You are the one who then went off on the retail-vs-retail to try and dismiss my argument. We kept pointing out to you that we were not discussing retail-vs-retail, and you kept bringing it up as if it somehow had anything to do with retail-vs-homebuilt.
The homebuilt crowd is not as small as some folks here seem to believe. The market for such folks is absolutely *huge*.
I was merely arguing the fact that when someone says PC's are cheaper and gets the standard reply that they are not, the person replying has utterly failed to take into account the massive homebuilt market.
Sites like Newegg, MWave, Tiger Direct, Micro Center, etc depend on this market. And they do quite well. This market isn't moving to Mac any time soon.
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|And with laptops surpassing the desktops in market percentage, it must be due to NewEgg, et. al. selling millions of build your own laptop components.
Right...
But its nice to know that what is sinking Dell is the sales of components.
And if ALL you want is a Windows or Linux PC. By all means do that! That point was granted yesterday! That tangent is simply a fanboy rant!
The advantage of running a Mac is the option of running multiple concurrent environments with OSX as an option that speaks to both UNIX and Windows natively.
But if you want to futz around with the PC to run OSX on a whitebox, you might want to hack the Trusted platform Module code from the load. In OSX the TPM kernel extension called AppleTPMACPI.kext
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|Actually it is factually correct.
A company derives profit from selling a product above cost.
SInce prices of, for example, iPods have stayed pretty much static this past year, as well as the rest of the Apple products, and manufacturing costs have undoubtedly dropped, you are essentialy paying a higher premium for the same products that you payed for last year, making them even more over priced ( above the manufacturers cost ) than they were last year.
Simple economics : Price of sold item - Cost of item = Profit.
Latz, SB
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|Laptops?
Dell's dropping sales?
Is it just that you forget what the topic is about, or are you trying to save face when you bring up things that have nothing to do with the topic?
My point wasn't a tangent, your responses have *all* been.
Whatever.
Yeah, we can get OSX working on whitebox (and even retail) windows systems, I think we all know that. The problem with that is why? It's unsupported, illegal, and problematic at best if your system isn't 100% compatible (ie., basically a Mac). What's the point?
Is being able to run GarageBand *really* that big a deal?
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|I have been a PC user for a very long time. When the Intel Mac was introduced, I purchased my first Mac (top of the line), as it offered some advantages for my work and research. My plan was to continue using both PCs and Macs, depending of the task at hand. I am very practical and not fanatic about either kinds of machines. I do not play games on PCs. The consequences of that move still surprise me. At this point in time, here is what has changed about my use of both kinds of machines:
1- Laptops: I have completely stopped using all PCs laptops for myself and only use Mac laptops, given their incredible superior functionality. I could never use a PC laptop without a mouse hooked to it. I never needed a mouse for the Mac laptop. The Macbook Pro 15" is the best computer I have ever owned, period (and I have owned many). My kids still use PC laptops, as they mostly play games on them, and I maintain them, so I am constantly reminded of the superiority of the Mac laptops over PC laptops (except for games). When virtualization software on the Mac (e.g. Parallels) will use 3-D graphic card functionality, I will most likely completely switch my kids to Macs.
2- Desktops: I use Mac desktops 95% of the time and PC desktops 5% of the time I work on a desktop. When I need to run a PC software, I much prefer to run it in Parallels on a Mac than on a PC. My PC desktop use is now limited to the Media Center features of Windows, which are still not available in Mac OS X. When the Mac introduces the equivalent to a Media Center edition, I will have no further uses for PC desktops.
I am still surprised by the consequences of that initial switch. This was not expected, given my lack of fanaticism and very practical view of computers. I have purchased 3 Macs and no PCs since the initial switch. I have been very disappointed by Vista since I started using it on my PCs.
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|I can't help but continue to laugh at the folks who are still mired in the Apple vs MS debate.
Who cares...If that is the level at which you operate, you have nothing constructive to add to the discussion.
But why does the Mac matter to some? Do you have to hate MS to use it? Heck no. There is still a part of the world, especially in the high end segments, that use UNIX. Surprised? And no, as much as Linux might wish they were, Linux does not quite equal the larger more robust UNIXes. Neither does it communicate with Windows in any reasonable manner.
If the PC does everything you want, and you have no need for anything else, that either means that you are very lucky, or that you do not get out much and aren't aware of other platforms and tools, especially vertical environments.
But if you have a need for multiple tools on multiple platforms, and ESPECIALLY if you have a need to deal with cross-platform UNIX/Windows environments, the Mac, and OSX in particular is a godsend.
Why? Quite simply because it not only can run both environments concurrently, but it is able to communicate between the two environments seamlessly in native mode WITHOUT the need for godawful terminal emulation!
And quite frankly, its a pleasure to be able to s***o a secure UNIX server while administering a Windows desktop from the same machine simultaneously, if you have the need.
This ability, plus the ability to pick best of breed applications as needed is a major improvement over the one size fits all solution offered by the Windows Linux options, where sure you can run both, but they do not communicate except via terminal emulation, which is to say that the two dysfunctional environments can sort of talk...a little.
And if that 'works' for you, or you are one of the erudite folks whose life revolves around games, then be happy.
Some of us require greater functionality, and we really don't care about the fanboy rants of either camp that are oblivious to greater capabilities and challenges in the marketplace.
And having greater choice creates greater advantages than being limited to more limited OS environments. But then, this seems to confuse many who seem to find solace and security in an environment with fewer degrees of freedom and functionality.
But I guess we will have to keep listening to the tired pissing contests of those who think that because they like one platform or the other, that the others will go away.
Use whatever OS environment works best for you. The Mac simply offers greater choice and hence functionality in this regards.
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|I used to be hard core PC and very anti-Mac (like many here) even though I had never tried one (like many here). I made the switch to Mac and would never go back.
I have Vista installed via Boot Camp but have only booted into it once. I was holding onto Vista to play Enemy Territory: Quake Wars, but now I see that is being released on Mac too. I may just get rid of Vista and reclaim that hard drive for extra storage.
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|that's funny
I used to love Mac and never used one, me and my bro started on the Apple IIe. I used to hear a lot of good things about the Macs when I got older, like no viruses and does not crash.
Boy when I actually started using them was that a bunch of hogwash. Crashes galore, with software made to recover from those known and constant crashes...and the software to recover regularly corrupted data. Oh and not to mention those viruses that wiped out their old data...but of course, does not exist.
All PC, all Windows...never going back. Strangely enough, why do Mac people always want to load up MS products to use PC software if it is so bad? It isn't of course...just denial. lol
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|"Strangely enough, why do Mac people always want to load up MS products to use PC software if it is so bad?"
One, and *only* one, word... games!
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|yep... games are the sole reason most mac users would really want to deal with windows.. same for the unix varient users..
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|Its obvious that this is an ignorant PC fanboy rant. Why?
The Mac is a PC. Period,
You don't have to load Windows to run MS apps! That is not why 'they do it'! MS is the largest Mac developer, and MS products run in OSX - often with greater functionality then their Windows counterparts! Oh...
And if you live in a real world, interacting with others, (while in your case I can see why this would be a foreign concept), you just may need to interact with others running another platform where you need interoperability. The nice thing with the Mac, this works both ways - you can interact with both the Windows world and the UNIX world as necessary. Confusing isn't it?
While someone may prefer the OSX environment, there is MUCH more than the OSX/Windows debate. There is the potential for greater interoperability which translates to greater productivity. AND you have the choice of environments in which to conduct your personal business!
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|lol...of course I'm a PC fan...but more importantly, I am an MS/Windows fan...nothing to hide about.
The sad and funny thing about your arguement, is that you are going against what the Mac commercials say and what many Mac users say...they aren't PCs. Of course it could be from all that arrogance and smugness...but that's what is. Logically they are all computers right? But in the Mac world, it just has to be so special right? So I give that to you if you need it. hehe
Some HAVE to interopt with others, some don't. Nobody should be required to do so...not communism afterall...at least not for me.
Cheers
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|It still must be nice to have an O/S that isnt littered with spyware, spam, viruses, trojans and other fun stuff like that.
I do think Vista does a great job of keeping that s*** out of my computer but XP is a joke full of holes.
You cant wipe your a** without Vista asking you to cancel or allow but in three months, not one piece of malware has made it's way into my computer.
I would consider a Mac if it would actually run my software and not just iTunes and programs for editing video and music.
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|What software can't it run? I'm considering the switch, and realistically, the only 'programs' I'll have trouble with are games. I'm sure there's some specialist software that isn't on both Mac & PC, but I don't use anything that fancy.
It was interesting to note your opinion on Vista vs XP security. Do you really think it's that much better? I've spent the last 2 years without getting any malware on my XP box, without any AV. Kaspersky head honcho seemed to think that Vista was actually less secure than XP SP2, if the UAC is turned off (I know it would be on mine, it bugs you WAAAAY too much!).
How many bugs did you load on your system under XP?
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|Let me know when the Mac's market share matters.
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|Exactly.
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|Right Now. (...there are other people on this planet besides just ignorant PC users.)
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|Wrong.
1. Windows XP 86.80%
2. Windows 2000 6.09%
3. Windows 98 2.68%
4. Macintosh 2.32%
5. Windows ME 1.09%
6. Linux 0.36%
7. Windows NT 0.24%
8. Macintosh Power PC 0.15%
These stats are from August 14th. I'm sorry, but a 2% market share does not qualify as anything but roadkill to most folks.
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|ding ding ding! bingo!
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|Whoop-de-****ing-do
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|This really shouldn't be that surprising.
Their current strategic advantage combining PC hardware compatibility with the ability to run OSX, MS and Open Source environments concurrently, offering an advantage over the 'traditional' PC which does not as easily run OSX, is a very attractive alternative that offers greater choice and functionality.
That combined with an extremely good pricing structure for their high end Big Mac desktops with dual quad core Xeons for ~$3600 makes for a very attractive desktop.
Now, for the 'not so good'.
Apple would benefit from: a transition from the cult of personality around Steve Jobs into a more progressive company based upon competitive innovation; as well as from a rigorous house cleaning while offering above the board financial ethics coupled with more aggressive corporate governance. Such developments would offer significant advantages.
Another aspect where they would benefit would be in more aggressive high end laptops with increased RAM and video capabilities, combined with reasonable bundled configuration prices for their peripherals such as RAM and video cards, which quite frankly border somewhere between the absurd and the obscene.
They would also benefit from separating the accessory iPod, iPhone, etc., divisions from the computer division and make them each self-sustaining, thus creating a more competitive environment for each.
And with their XServe and XRaid products, and an OS that could easily be morphed into a full blown enterprise class product, they would do well to finish certifying OSX via the UNIX 03 Product Standard, thus allowing major databases, CRM and SCM products to run on OSX without requiring a special OSX version...in other words, they could run any of the POSIX compliant versions, be they AIX, HP-UX, Linux, or Solaris, as the applications would not require any special platform tailoring. This would offer significant opportunities for penetration into enterprise environments while leveraging their already present ability to administer Windows desktops while natively interfacing with the bigger UNIX backends.
Lots of challenges, but also lots of opportunities. And if they can pull it off, additional options in a more competitive market offering everyone more top of the class options and choices.
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|Here, here to all of that.
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|Please.
"Hear, hear"
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|*yawn*
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|Mmm. Good point. Was tired and rather drunk.
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|