Not to add more fuel to the fire, but I thought you guys might find this interesting - if not scary and disturbing. But some say we do not have a right to proactively attack these militant Muslims, because they were not direclty involved in the attacks. What are your thoughts? Can we really sit back and idly watch this continue?

http://www.usatoday.com/hear.htm

At the Haqquania madrassa, a student who says he has just attended one of bin Laden's training camps pulls out a training manual, called the "encyclopedia," which U.S. officials say is used at the camps in Afghanistan. "Now listen, American, and listen well," says Hussain Zaeef, 21. He reads from Page 12 of the manual: " 'Bomb their embassies and vital economic centers.' That's what I will do to you and your country. I will get your children. I will get their playgrounds. I will get their schools, too. I will get all of you."

Tempers then flare. Several students begin yelling at once, pointing their fingers and gesturing wildly.

One yells out the name of Mohammed Atta, an alleged bin Laden associate believed to have hijacked one of the two jets that crashed into the World Trade Center. Another says he will "kill more than Atta."

A third student then unfolds a picture of the Sears Tower in Chicago. "This one is mine," he says.

[quote]
The students, most of whom are from Pakistan and Afghanistan, spend up to 6 hours a day memorizing the Koran. Then, they spend 2-4 hours listening to lectures about the Koran and the Islamic prophet Mohammed. Their curriculum includes some mathematics and geography but little else. Critics say the schools are teaching intolerance.

"These schools are providing an education which is basically unchanged from the 11th century," says Islamic analyst Pervez Hoodboy. He says they produce "a student with a particular mindset, one who does not question and who can be easily motivated into fighting to the death."
[quote]

8-10 hours a day makes for a good brainwashing - This I think is the scariest point of all.

You know the playground comment did it for me, I say we melt the whole damn country. I don't want my children to die because of their beliefs, it's bad enough that they have already killed 6,000 of my countrymen. The soviets had a hard time? They didn't fight like the scum that they were fighting against. I think Mr. Bush needs to set an example, maybe a playground or two of osamas children would get their attention, and bring him out of hiding. Yes it seems sick, but what is one to do when their children's goals in life are to kill as many americans as possible. We don't need to use nukes, but there has to be something we can do. Chemical / Biological anyone? I'm up for a little sand dusting mission? "Do on to others as you would want them to do on to you."

They have done onto us, it's time to do onto them.

Hmmm, the American hater is getting slow :) I agree that we should fry the ENTIRE country after hearing this. They wanna see Allah? Well the sooner the better! I'd be more than willing to join a mercenary group and tote a flamethrower so I could cook a few sand n*****'s. F**K THAT!!! They wanna kill our KIDS!!!! They wanna blow up the Sears Tower?! They MUST die, and quickly at that.

If anyone thinks that WWIII isn't going to come out of this, then you better think again. Pakistan has nukes, and if THESE people get ahould of them, I'd seriously think about of moving out of major US cities. And I would do that anyway, bio and chemical stuff might already be in the US if they are grounding all crop dusters. Fred must be getting a kick out of this but he isn't Islamic so there is a target on his a** too, whether he likes it or not. Maybe you won't love those people so much when they bomb the European targets they are planning on next month. That was on CNN today. Go back into your shell OR get the f**k out of it. You can't have it both ways.

Worst of all, what they are learning is'nt correct at all. Islam does'nt teach intolerance in the first place. It teaches to respect others religion and their own beleifs. Secondly its totally against killing innocent people (specially women & kids). What kind of stuff are they learning in their schools then? For sure they are'nt true muslims without any doubt.

Its coz of people like these who don't even know the truth the way it is and give a bad name for the whole community/country. There ARE many people from their own communities who know whats right & wrong and oppose them, there are frequent clashes between the extremists & the right people in pakistan.

Here's some photo's of our ENEMIES:

http://www.msnbc.com/new...5.asp?pne=msn&cp1=1

Look like a bunch a muntants if ya ask me?! Don't much matter cuz they are frying in the fires of hell now. They must have said to satan "Hey, you don't look like allah?" before being escorted to their own private sauna's of molten sulphur. Now on to exterminating the rest of this bunch of worthless sand fleas. So you see Fred, Canuck and NOFEAR, unless you are a muslim, you and your children are targeted for death with no exceptions. This has NOTHING to do with whether you live in the US, Canada, or England and has nothing to do with the US "meddling" in International affairs. If you are non muslim, you die. They have hated non muslims for thousands of years and have been killing them for that long as well. Only now, thanks to modern technology, they can strike out worldwide against the enemies of "allah". I would be willing to lay money on at least Fred becoming a muslim soon. LOL! :D

Actually, WORST of all for YOU is that YOU are a target as well. The will not stop until they exterminate ALL non muslims OR we exterminate them. That is, unless you decide to join Fred in his quest for allah.......

This story was moved to:

http://usatoday.com/news.../2001/09/27/schools.htm

Perhaps you would like to comment on the following:
"...(Banouri) says America has implemented a foreign policy based on hypocrisy and self-serving interests:

? He ridicules U.S. support for Israel, which he accuses of brutalizing Palestinians and illegally occupying the West Bank of the Jordan River.

? He blasts U.S.-backed economic sanctions on Iraq, which he says are causing thousands of Iraqi women and children to starve to death."

As for the Pakistan president allowing the US to pass through it's country, they likely know who will eventually win such a battle...

Enemies? What the hell are you talking about? These terrorists are DEAD! Did you not watch CNN for the first few days following the crashes? Do you expect them to live through that? How do you plan on battling them? By killing anybody who looks like them? I do hope that you haven't acted foolishly wherever you live. You will only make a complete a** out of yourself.
I know of many people who remotely match the description of your image of a terrorist. Do I treat them like one? No. They will have absolutely nothing to do with it. Should I tell them to get the hell out of my country? No.
It seems that you think that *every* Muslim is a terrorist, from what you have just written. Gee, I didn't know that. Maybe I *will* go around killing all Muslims! Oh, wait! I know better than that! I don't think I'll do that!
Quit swallowing whole the paranoid reporting that you see on CNN. These people are writing these stories for ratings. Specifically, American ratings. It's only justified that they paint the perfect image of East vs. West. America vs. Muslims. They know that the majority of the US (and quite possibly the world) is watching them. They want to make it perfectly clear that now that the Soviets have collapsed, that the Muslims are USA Enemy #1.
Perhaps the Muslim world really does have a point of the unfair US foreign policies. But that will never change. Not as long as North America is supplied with their precious oil. But that's another story for another day.

sorry, I lost interest when you stopped being funny and stupid and started just being plain sick.

I just hope you DONT represent the majority of american opinion.

Most middle eastern countries have nukes now. I watched a program last night about how israel had its nukes armed and ready for immediate launch at iraq in the gulf war. They all have nukes now, and its almost certain that one of those groups/countries will get ..... suitably annoyed enough to use them if this war ever really starts.

Well after I forward this story which is strangely obscure there will be many more Americans that share this view. Once the muslims are done killing us, they WILL turn to Europe where I have many friends and I for one, will NOT stand by idly sticking up for enemies while this threat exists. Any one of these "innocent" people whom you are so fond of is more likely to join with bin Laden than us and that includes children.

The preceding comment made no sense at all, but then again...........

hehe.. he never did represent any actually besides those who are brain washed.

If u mean all non muslims then y are'nt they harming ppl/interests of canada, uk, etc ? u mean they don't have non muslims there? now u r sounding more stupid than ever. Its simply becoz those countries as written in one of the posts earlier are indeed global peacekeepers but not really law enforcers like police. They don't simply mess with other ppl's inside matters or really support few countries (like isreal) to make the whole arab world which consists of alot of countries upset.

no, it wouldnt make any sense to you would it. made perfect sense to the rest of the HUMAN population of the world though.

"...(Banouri) says America has implemented a foreign policy based on hypocrisy and self-serving interests"

Do you give your money to a person that willingly destroys everything they own or to a poor person that wants to better themselves but is down on his luck?

"? He ridicules U.S. support for Israel, which he accuses of brutalizing Palestinians and illegally occupying the West Bank of the Jordan River."

The REAL God gave Israel that land thousands of years ago because of the Arab's worship of false gods (allah?) Don't read your Bible much eh? (I will NOT go ANY further into this)

"? He blasts U.S.-backed economic sanctions on Iraq, which he says are causing thousands of Iraqi women and children to starve to death."

Do you REALLY think ANY money that the US gave to Iraq would go to starving women and children? If so, you are Dumb and DumbEST.

Unfortionately we do have a lot of middle-eastern vs white troubles in england already. Luckily there arent too many people here like compdoc, otherwise we would have probably had some form of civil war already. I assume compdoc feels safe making the comments he is making because there arent a large number of muslims or middle-easterners in general living in his area. He'd surely be dead and his head would be on a stick by now if he lived in some of the cities over here. Did any of you over that side of the world hear of the bradford riots earlier this year?

Here we go again ~sigh~ "the bible is the only truth blah blah blah" we'll just ignore how the new testament was written thousands of years after most other religions were established eh? we'll just ignore how most of it was written purely for political gain at that time eh?

It makes me what the throw up every time I hear an american thank "God". yeah thank God for helping with all the crimes against human rights that america has commited over the years. If I didnt already believe that most modern interpretations of the bible were based around the one that one of englands delightful kings had written for his personal gain, then Id have to believe that an american had written the bible...... but oh wait, if an american had written it jesus would have been an american wouldnt he?! Im surprised hollywood hasnt tried that out in a film before now! maybe they have, maybe I just missed that one.

congratulations, you have found a subject that will REALLY f me off. Christians are the most evil lying manipulative bas****s on the earth. (and no im NOT muslim, im not of ANY religion really, most religions have been manipulated over time for specific peoples personal gains. I perfer to follow my OWN beliefs and no one elses).

I hope you guys love these people right up to the instant before they kill you. That way, you are no threat to them and are actually helping them by sympathizing with them and persuading others to agree with your warped views. Mortal wounds feel warm and fuzzy too so I guess you won't even notice a change until everything goes black.

I surmized you were Godless by your "grey" color. That is why you have no direction, why you have 0% morals and why you cant side with what is right. There exists only black and white when it comes to morals. You have to choose good or evil not both or in between.

you're the one with the warped views. people like YOU are the ones provoking "these people" to strike out in the first place. I dont know how many muslims or people from the middle east in general there are in america, but right now I wish there was enough to start a civil bloody war cos someone needs to shut you up and thats about the only thing that will do it I guess.

ho ho ho....... a christian preaching about morals and doing the right thing...... LMFAO! christians only have morals when it suits them.

I'd rather be brain-washed than brain-less...

shame, what went wrong? you obviously ended up brainless by accident then?

Don't think so

It wouldnt be the first time american stupidity led it into a civil war.

Just one question? How much is bin Laden paying you guys to cause strife on the winning team? You people are TRAITORS to mankind in general and should be shot out into space so your corpses don't pollute this planet any further.

LMAO!!!! this just gets better and better! an american talking about polution now! LOL!!!!! hey thanks guys, you really know how to brighten my day!

how can you call it the "winning team" already? more proof that americans (or at least you) are far too arrogant for your own good!
Nothing has even really happened yet, certainly not enough for you to claim the american team is the "winning team".

I wonder how ppl around u actually tolerate u or maybe they r already insensitive towards u and the stupid comments u keep making all the time.

Winning team? not so soon without loosing more innocent ppls lives on both the sides. That would'nt be a true victory with so many deaths.

Its actually ppl like u who piss the so called terrorists off and then make them fry your a$$ up. And other innocent ppl suffer who are caught in the middle.

Secondly if you think the terrorists are after 'all' the non muslims then why don't they target other countries too? y only the US?
You talking about warped views? but u don't even have a view at all, ur mind is pretty much closed.

On the same hand, people like YOU are provoking all the pro-American people to keep going on and on about how much they want to 'strike back'. I'm not sure where you come off as some sort of saviour of human rights, to a bystander your views are no different to those of compdoc etc. They have strong views towards the Muslims as a result of a lot of anger etc, and you have strong views towards America and American's. You just seem to be pissing eachother off. Think about that.

Hey..p off. I'm not insulting your beliefs of god or Christianity or any other religion (just yet), please don't insult those that choose not to believe in any god or any religion (Note that I have separated the two, because I honestly think they are two totally different things, one is a faith in a 'higher being' the other is a faith in an institution of man). Just because someone doesn't believe in religion A doesn't mean that they have no direction of 0% morals.

but thats what christianity is built on. if christians admitted to themselves that they ARENT the only ones with moral values, or even that some non-christians have HIGHER moral values, then christianity would have died out years ago when they realized that it was based on lies.

btw, its good to hear of others who follow their own forms of faith instead of the lemmings effect far too many people follow.

I agree to a certain extent... anyone going against the pro-american belief unfortionately does seem to fuel their anger instead of them actually considering what people like me have to say. but when you hear people saying they want to destroy the whole country of afghanistan because of what one man (who wasnt even from afghanistan) and some of his people (most of which also werent from afghanistan).... its very hard not to react to that.

Not all americans are christian, or catholic, or muslim, etc some of us believe that there is no afterlife, and we are here because of any number of reasons. Don't classify a whole people based on your belief that christianity is bad. I think all religions are bad, but I also believe that people should have the right to believe in any "God" that they want. I'm glad someone finally pissed you off though, you have been pushing our buttons for days.

It's all about HOW you go against the pro-american belief. I am not calling all of your people idiots because of some of the things you have said, nor have I been so bold to say that I hated you because I don't. That is why I likened you to a forum troll in the other news article. I am all for you not believing in the american way, that is why you chose not to live here, HOWEVER, I would hunt you down and end your life if you were to prove (WTC bombing) that your intent was to harm my children (crop dusters?) (mine being any of my people's)

Can you quit the american cracks? No one is talking about your people that way. Maybe you would shut up if we did? I'm sure I can make 1,000 comments about your country that would send you through the roof.

Well thats ok then cos I have no intent to harm anyone! certainly not americans in general, or any other groups of people.

Hey now, I don't believe in any "God" and I have plenty of direction.

ok sounds fair, you and compdoc shut up with the pro-american stuff, and i'll shut up with the anti-american stuff.

Im in shock! we kinda agree on something!

You are glad that someone pissed you off too?? HAHA :-P!

Sorry for replying to this so late...
"The REAL God gave Israel that land thousands of years ago because of the Arab's worship of false gods (allah?) Don't read your Bible much eh? (I will NOT go ANY further into this)"

It is true that God gave Israel and his children the land Israel. He promised this to Abraham that it will be through Ishaac. One thing to keep in mind though is that Ishmael, is Ishaac's half brother. Thus the Isrealites and the Arabs are actually half brothers. That's why this is actualy a family fued. God told Hagar (Ishmael's mother) that Ishmael will be a great (many people) nation, and that there will be 12 tribes, also that Ishmael( Arabs) will be a waring nation, always at enmity with everyone else. (It is all in Genesis)

I'm just thinking it would be stupid to be against the people whom GOD are looking out for.

Sppire.

:-/ NO!

Just kidding ;-)

Good, I hope people like ME piss the terrorists off so bad it will bring them out of hiding so we may "fry THEIR a$$es up"!! I thought our president already said that countries that harbor terrorists are with the terrorists? Thats old news which I agree with completely....

No chance b****!!

AMEN, MY BROTHER!

At least you have morals though. I wish to drop the discussion of religion but rather focus on the side of right and wrong. You are on the side of right, and that is good enough for me.

One LAST thing about Christianity and I end the discussion of religion. At least Christians don't believe in suicide attacks.

Isn't patriotism a "religion" of sorts? Anything you believe in strongly can become a "religion"

Not so

This story was moved to:

http://usatoday.com/news.../2001/09/27/schools.htm

It deserves to remain at the top of the posts.......

I will fight with you shoulder to shoulder fewt.

One thing I must say is that BetaNews has the greatest forum in the world for allowing some of what has been said here, from myself included. True freedom of speech in a volatile forum.

That is why you piss people off. I'm sure you would not fight EVEN for your OWN country and that is a disgrace.

It's good to see that we agree with this, at least.
The Betanews guys have been very good with allowing us peoples to express our opinions.

give it up! you DONT KNOW ME.

Don't make such assumptions.
Should I be called by my government to fight, I would, without a moments hesitation. As it is now, I'm not needed.

Are you serious? If this whole argument is some type of joke on your part, I find it not funny.

I still have mixed feelings on the subject..

My origional message along this line was not meant to anger people, but to provoke a (somewhat) healthy debate. Note that I did not choose any particular sides. For once, an argument turned out with people agreeing with each other. Good for you guys. I'm pleased. :)

On the subject, yes. I'm sure many do.
But regardless of what has been written, it seems like nothing (or very little) has been deleted. This whole discussion has been quite an experience, and I'm honored to be allowed to have it.
Thank you, Betanews.

One thing I remember is the hostage situation in Iran in 1979. I remember vivid images of Iranian's whipping themselves with chains and chanting Anti-US sayings on national television. Scary thing is these people claim to be of a "non-violent" form of islam called "s***e's". I call 'em "s***ty" muslims as that is what they are full of. They don't fool me in the very least. They have violent minds which is where this stuff begins in the first place.......

Yeah, thanks for not banning me again ;-) (That was what I was referring to when I spoke of having mixed feelings, my feelings towards bin laden's crew haven't changed, there is nothing there but anger and hatred.) All in all I think this was a great discussion thread, and I appreciate having been part of it.

http://www.msnbc.com/news/629304.asp?pne=msn

http://www.msnbc.com/news/633205.asp?pne=msn

http://slate.msn.com/pol/01-09-28/pol.asp

Yes, we should feed them......LEAD that is :)

I on the other hand am normally non-violent but have been provoked to violence by the fanatic "islamist's" involved in attacking our country. They have shed the "First Blood" and now they have a BIG problem to deal with. Now they will get a one way first class ticket to allah courtesy of the US Military.

Yeah :D CNET or ZDNet would have deleted most if not ALL of our posts and banned us all for life! Rock on BetaNews!

Nate, please keep a link to this on the BetaNews main page as long as you can. Thanks

I hate no one here myself but rather find non-action, and "blind" love repulsive.

Are you sure? I believe in suicide missions against military targets.

"more than 480 people had been arrested or detained" yep, and how many of those 480 have they managed to find with the slightest link to bin laden? 3. THREE. hardly conclusive that it was actually him. and it certainly doesnt offer much hope of ever actually finding bin laden. I also hear there are calls for whoever the head guy at the CIA is to resign due to them not having ANY clues as to the where-abouts of bin laden so far.

Quotes from the bible prove nothing. Of course the bible is going to agree with american beliefs on the issue of israel. Do all other religious texts agree with the bible on israel? no? And what makes the bible right and all other religious texts wrong? bugger all!

and if you listen to true islamic people you would know that their religion is totally against that as well. as are all religions i assume.

The POINT is, YOU said, "EU ministers are now saying that they would never hand over bin laden or anyone else to america if they will face the death penalty."

But THIS story states, "Scotland Yard announced for the first time prior to the extradition hearing that he had been arrested on an international warrant originating from the United States."

If you think that this SCUM, will not receive the "Needle of Death", then you are sadly mistaken. Lethal Injection is, in MY opinion, FAR too mild for such a person. I would prefer that he would be placed in the Iron Maiden and forced to ROT to death in a cold, damp English castle's basment. You know, YOUR country is known for some of the most ruthless forms of capital punishment ever devised. Use them I say, Use them!

Well, there is no reason for us to do that with all the modern weaponry and technology at our disposal. This COULD be very surgical if done properly. I would die fighting for what is right, but I believe suicide is wrong in any case. Besides, they don't have permanent bases like we do, they move about quite a bit.

You don't care to understand and I won't reply just so you can disagree. So forget it.

Remember that we are only reaping what we have sown.

The crusades were waged against the Moors from the 11th to the 16th century. That is 500 years of continuous persecution; imagine the hatred it engendered against the exclusively Christian perpetrators. Further, the Afghans have been starving because of our foreign policies for over a decade. Should they love us?

Where people are fed and clothed there are very few martyrs or bloody wars. Feed our enemies. Clothe them. Strive to understand our cultural differences. When they become our friends, our allies, look back at the violence and be ashamed.

3 that YOU and I know of. That doesn't make it 3. It could be any number, and althought I'm not sure of this (as how can I be!) but I hope that for once they're not informing the media of EVERYTHING they know. There's a fine line between giving the media enough information to give to the public and giving the media enough information that the enemy can use. This is one of those instances where I don't mind not knowing everything from CNN or whoever the second it's done as it does not but screw up chances for everyone. Tell us all later. So my point is, don't assume you're getting the full story from the media - you may be - but chances are that they hopefully for once playing this out in a smart way and only giving out information that they either want the enemy to know or information they don't mind the enemy knowing.

I agree. Thanks BetaNews.

"Of course the bible is going to agree with american beliefs on the issue of israel."

I believe (and correct me if I am wrong) that the reason why America has had certain views of Israel are as a result of the large population of people from Israel there. So it's not a matter of the bible agreeing with anything. Of course the fundamental reason for it all is because Israel is seen as the holy land as a result of the bible...but what can u do =)

I'll put forward a ridicolous paedantic example -
I believe STRONGLY in gravity, and I believe even more strongly that in an system where no external forces act) gravity is approximately equal to 9.8m/s/s. Gravity will never be classified as a religion.

Now I'll put forward a less ridicolous (well depends on your beliefs) example -
I (don't, but for this example I'll lie) STRONGLY believe in astrology and that we can read our futures in the stars. I hardly see astrology becoming a religion.

Religion is of a specific nature.

I'll be a sarcastic prick....have you met/seen a 'true' islamic person lately? I ask because I've heard all sorts of muslims on tv etc talk about how 'true' islamic people would never kill etc - yet I'm still to be shown where these 'true' islamic people are. Are they the majority of all islamic people?

Correction, not a free ticket to Allah but to satan most probably.

Yeah.. here we know how the other ppl think about what happened and what should happen next. Best way to communicate ideas with each other.

Lethal injection or the Iron maiden? u r thinking too far. I bet Bin Ladin would'nt giveup so easily to anyone as long as he is alive, if he has guts to do something so horrible he sure has enough in him to kill himself, simply coz he for sure must be knowing what he'd have to go through once he is caught (alive).

NO, we are reaping what the ENGLISH have sown if you wish to speak in the context of the crusades. And WHY is it the responsibility of the US to feed and clothe the WORLD? Once again, F**K That!!! I don't want MY tax dollars going to "feed" a bunch of WACKOS! Besides, it would only be feeding those with guns, NOT innocent civilians. The UN just passed a resolution that would cut off ANY funding WHATSOEVER to countries that sponsor terrorism. GOOD!! STARVE!! If the women and children die, there will be NO little Osama's born and NO chance for potential Osama's to EVER grow up! Sorry if that seems COLD, but if thats what it takes.........

I agree with you on this one. I was just refering to where they "think" they are going. :)

This whole mess is tearing me apart. On one hand, my beliefs direct me to love my enemies, but when you see the wreckage of the WTC and the Pentagon, rage quickly smothers ANY love you would even TRY to feel towards these savages. Then, when you think of the prospect of future attacks that have already been PLANNED by them, it makes love almost impossible to feel. While it is true that we should love our enemies, governments have the responsibility to protect the citizens of their countries against such BLATANT hatred and evil. Maybe this is what we should do, try to love these people as fellow humans but let our governments deal with protecting us without questioning them. I'm not saying in ANY way that we should be soft on them as God himself would not after what they have done.

Any thoughts?

He has already said he will not be taken alive. His men have standing orders to shoot him if he is in any danger of being captured.

compdoc... think someone hacked your account! this cant really be the same person can it?

if this post shows your honest feelings then, im sorry for any abusive posts i made towards you. We're all in two minds how to react to this, I didnt realize this from your previous posts which seemed to show just pure hatrid for muslims, middle eastern people etc.

As for cutting off funding etc to the area, well from what I understand the only aid going out there now is food, medical aid and clothes... which seems very sensible to me, I dont see how anyone can object to that. had to laugh when I heard they are using 4000(I think?) donkeys(!!!) to take the aid to the people. The thought of 4000 donkeys just seems funny to me.

I can't beleive u wrote that above, I checked the name twice to make sure it was indeed you. Anyways.. I guess now u r getting it right.. never too late though.

umm.. Question. Where did u read/hear that?

No, but there probably are religions, or at least cults based around astrology arent there? :)

CNN I believe

Yes, but they STILL must be punished. And unfortunately, I think that means killing them. That includes the students in Pakistan who are more than willing to fill Osama's shoes when he is gone and ALL other enemies of peace, not just muslims. If we don't, they will lie in wait and attack us again when our guard is down. It is a sad thing that they have pushed us to the point that the ONLY option is killing them. They will not cease their hatred until they suicide attack us or we kill them ourselves. Re-teaching them is out of them question as they have been brainwashed into killing machines. Scary stuff.

I am not a hateful person and wish that we weren't pushed into this BUT we were. Now, the only thing we can do is respond in a way that THEY understand which is war to the death. This is an unfortunate reality and one we must face somberly no matter how we may feel about humanity. Very sad days for this world indeed.

And Fred, apology accepted.

The above story was moved to:

http://usatoday.com/news.../2001/09/27/schools.htm

And I still feel that much if not all of the aid that is on it's way will fall into the fanatics hands at gunpoint which is why I oppose it.

LOL! I too just heard that on bbc.. i can't stop laughing since I heard the UN has hired 4000 donkeys to get the job done hahahaaaaa.

Also, I am sorry about the abusive posts I made toward those here.

What if the West Nile Virus was just a test of a mild infection to see how well they could proliferate a virus. That started in NYC and it has traveled a good ways into Pennsylvania this year against the wind. When the West Nile infection first started, I thought to myself that this could be the work of Mid-East terrorists but never thought much about it as it only affected the the old and weak. I don't have any proof of this but it IS possible in light of hearing what they are finding out about the terrorists plans.

Well I even knew before this article we have the right to attack them. Any country harboring Bin Laden is obviously supporting them and on his side. If they don't turn him over, then we have no choice but to attack them (The Taliban).

As for Pakistan, I'm sure they are just as guilty. But trying to back out of being responsible by pretending to help us.

What scares me is the day one of these Bin Laden "cults" gets ahold of a nuclear weapon, which I believe Pakistan already has.

As far as I am concerned, all these Bin Laden "cult" terrorists are devil worshipers. Perhaps they don't realize it, but they are. Its definitely not the God I know.

I find your comment very cold hearted after what they have just done. Trying to justify what they have done (killing close to 7000 innocent people) is sickening.

If they had sanctions against them from the U.S. in the past, it would have only been because they have did this in the past to others. Bin Laden has been tied in the past to MANY terrorist activities. I think you better wake up out of your phantasy world you are living in.

Cheers to Mr. Tony Blair!!! May bin Laden feel the WRATH of the entire world on his towel assed head!! Read the story here:

http://www.cnn.com/2001/...et.diplomacy/index.html

Damn, ya don't wanna piss off an Englishman :)

http://www.msnbc.com/new...0.asp?pne=msn&cp1=1

IF YOU ARE NOT WITH US, THEN YOU ARE WITH THE TERRORISTS!!!!!!!

EU ministers are now saying that they would never hand over bin laden or anyone else to america if they will face the death penalty. So I guess the whole of the EU are harbouring terrorists as well??? so the whole of the EU are with the terrorists now.

SHUT UP!

Now the a$$hole is PROUD that if the EU finds bin Laden first he will not be punished? Just shows how sick YOU are! I guess WE will have to find him first then :) Maybe you should join the Al Qihad if you are so much for poor bin Laden getting off the hook?

AND I WILL NEVER SHUT UP A$$WIPE!

Check this link out:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi...sid_1550000/1550327.stm
Seems like there are traiters in your own country, since they don't share your view.

According to the topic of this post it seems that countries like Iran,switzerland,etc who are not really with the US (although they denounce terrorism in all forms) are with the terrorists? they can't remain neutral?

Btw its Al Qaeda not Al Qihad.

An advice, give a visit to a psychiatrist who (might) be able to help u utilise and access some other parts of your brain so you can stop thinking so narrow mindedly (if u hav a mind).

I'm sorry then they will become the enemy. He will be put to death if he is found guilty. There will be no redemption for his crimes against humanity.

If you accept Bin Laden into your country, and do not turn him over without terms, you are no longer neutral.

As many as 53 of your countrymen are missing from the September 11th terrorists attack. I suppose you still dont care, so whatever.

As many as 250 of your countrymen are missing from the September 11th terrorists attack. I suppose you still dont care, so whatever.

It causes grief, yes. If they killed 6,500+ Canadians, I would still grieve. But I would NOT go on insane rampages saying that all Muslims, whether Pakistani, Afghani, or whatever, should rot in festering hell!
Also, even if our country had the capability of bombing the whole country until it's a smoldering pile, I would oppose it.

Oh, and you didn't reply to my comment, either. How about it? Would you turn your fellow American over to the authorities, should they oppose your view in any way?

I'll put it this way. When the s*** REALLY hits the fan and the president puts Executive Orders into effect, I will remain loyal to the United States. The PANZY ASS, whining little girly men who still tiptoe through the tulips and preach their FALSE PEACE and insert flowers into guns will get their F*****G hands blown off by me.

You STILL don't get it. YOU are an enemy of muslims JUST because your AREN'T one!!! bin Laden, the Taliban and all other parties allied with them want YOU dead as well as us. If you would rather let them kill you first, so be it. It's free in Canada as well as here. You have a right to let yourself be killed, if that is what you desire. Seems very strange to me that you would want to, but..........

no YOU dont get it. the "muslims" (your generalisation not mine) are only reacting this way due to years of christians (mainly americans not surprisingly!) going to the middle east and pushing the western ways and christianity. I remember a news report a few days ago saying that the tensions really flared up in afghanistan when american "special forces" (which seems quite a contradiction in itself!) were found to be preaching christanity in afghanistan. If america/christians had respected the religion values in afghanistan to start with, maybe none of this would have happened. Its christians going and trying to break down the existing religions in the middle east that is causing half the problems out there.

I have previously said I DO care. Are you blind as well as stupid? apparently you are.

I have previously said I DO care. Are you blind as well as stupid? apparently you are.

awww looks like america isnt going to get its way so easily afterall then. EU countries have terms, they are just very different to american terms. EU countries WILL hand him and other terrorists over, just not if they will face the death penalty - which Im sure america will never agree to so this could get interesting!

lol americans talking about crimes against humanity again....... lol this is more funny than any american comedy show!

My comment was simply to illustrate how the american "you are with us or with the terrorist" statement just will not work. Personally I think the death penalty would be letting the guy off lightly. Dont ya think putting him in a high security prison full of serial killers and other nutters who will attack him in various ways most days for the rest of his life would be more suitable punishment?

I certainly DONT believe he should be allowed to "get away with it" (assuming he WAS actually involved), so there is nothing there to be proud or not proud about.

No, as long as he has any form of connection to the outside world the terrorist factions will attack us until we release him, AND he will be able to lead his followers from behind the safety of a cell. (Though the thought of bin laden being bubba's b**** would make for a good anti terrorism billboard ;-)

F**K OFF, American hater. I STILL have not insulted your country as fewt pointed out and I will NOT as I have many British friends. I will NOT respect ANYONE who believes what these fanatic muslims preach or sides with them in any way, shape or form.

IF YOU ARE NOT WITH US, THEN YOU ARE WITH THE TERRORISTS!!!!!!!

btw, repeating it just makes you look more silly

IF YOU ARE NOT WITH US, THEN YOU ARE WITH THE TERRORISTS!!!!!!!

And if you don't like it, too F*****G bad. You peons may have the last word here as I am tiring of trying to get through your concrete and steel skulls but WE, The United States of America, WILL have the LAST word in the world forum.

Good for you.
I hope you are proud of that.

Actually, I'm proud to be an American and that we will not let these world bullies get away with what they have done no matter who's toes we have to step on in the process. We are looking out for the betterment of the world whether you realize it or not.

lol an american talking about world bullies eh?! lol

They won't get away with it, and I'm sure that everybody here knows that.
What we appear to be disagreeing with is how to obtain justice.
Perhaps we should try to work out an understanding, instead of continuing this slugfest. To be honest, I'm tiring of this argument and would like it to be resolved quickly.

That, my good man, is WHY we have forces in the mid-east right now. Besides, it really doesn't matter what any of us thinks, life OR death will happen as it will while we are making other plans.

With that being said, I'll take an example from IssacNewton and cease my ramblings on this. It's been a good discussion. For me, it's on to other things. Good day.

How about a new interface? This site has too many bad memorys of the eFront Days.

I've seen places in the US that look that bad as a result of people that live there MAKING them that way. Take a ride down to the slums in Newark, NJ and you will find dirt yards, bark stripped from ALL the trees and graffiti on EVERY house for as far as the eye can see. Who's fault is it? The animals that live there, thats who! Before the Taliban took over there were as many as 8 mini-armies in Afghanistan fighting amongst themselves with PUBLIC support for each. Now if the CITIZENS were backing these actions and taking pot shots out their back doors when they got the chance, are they really THAT innocent? NO! So, once again it comes down to:

IF YOU ARE NOT WITH US, THEN YOU ARE WITH THE TERRORISTS!!!!!!!

So you are now blaming the whole of afghanistan just because they have had a civil war? hmmm and of course they are the only country to ever have one of those arent they....

Well, here is the facts. I deeply and unreservably feel for those inocent people who lost there life in the USA disaster, it was shocking and proves that there are madmen who are hellbent on destroying others.
On America, well the goverment and its agenices are a differant story. The USA goverment and CIA and FBI are indeed war-mongers. The CIA put Saddam Hussain in power FACT, the Goverment sent in US troops to Vietnam under the mad-hatter president of the time Nixon and American soldiers were toasted with large casulities.

Then, because of these misdimeanors some madmen terrorists reverse the roles on america and suddenly america wants WWIII. Its incredible that those in the goverment of the US want revenge using the generallity of the whole of Afganistan and they instead to more or less inilate it.
The Afgan people are super resiliant as the russians found out, the afgans ever quit.

So, you have another potential vietnam in the making waiting to happen.
The conclusion is what goes around will come around.

If you care to study this IN DEPTH, you will find out that the Soviets WERE kicking the Afghani's a** BUT we stepped in and gave them Stinger missles and other weaponry. They did a special on this very subject last night on CNN. They might have SOME of that stuff left over from the war with the Soviets but I highly doubt that it is enough to fend us off if it is even in working condition.

So, you are saying that it is OK for the American people to pay for the mistakes of their leaders but NOT OK for the Afghani's to pay for their leaders mistakes?

We WILL win, there can be no mistake about that.

It doesnt take studying the russia/afghan conflict in detail to realize that after 8 years russia still hadnt managed to achieve a whole lot.

winning depends on the actual goal. Ending terrorism.... err no you wont win. Capturing/killing bin laden..... err no you probably wont do that either (you gotta find him first!)..... killing a few of the taliban and MAYBE removing them from power - ok you MIGHT manage that, but it wont last, the taliban will regain control as soon as america gets bored and leaves. Getting a little REVENGE. yep you will definitely manage that, although what comes after that is anyones guess.

So generally, winning depends on how sensible america is, as they dont seem to be very sensible at the moment, i very much doubt you will win.

This statement is rightly justified in a very well written article which can be found here - http://www.latimes.com/n...la-000075191sep19.story .

For those of u (specially compdoc) who after reading this article STILL think the innocent afghan civilians should die for just being in a place where the terrorists hide, then u r actually worse than the terrorists, a shame to humanity itself.

Be sure to see the photo gallery on the same page.

You want that we should just forget about ANY action whatsoever don't you? Unfortunately, we will not be able to "miss" every single civilian. It is a sad reality of war. Get your head out of your a** and realize this already!!!! You know, I am getting SO F*****G pissed with you people caring more about the poor Afghan's than the Americans that were fried, blown up and crushed in the attacks on Sept. 11th. STFU and go back into your SMALL little worlds!!

I am really out of words to describe you as a human being (even thats too much to say about ya). Not that no action should be taken.. but not just bombing out the whole country for which the US seems to have moved so many hundreds of fighter jets and carriers.
Where do the terrorists live? in places where the civilian population stays. I don't think you really need any replies now on after you have shown ur mindset here through your posts.

Allah is reported to be heading toward FunkyFred's dwelling to piss on his soul! LOL! :D

After he does this he will also visit theye, N0FEAR, Canuck, hummy, dubbs, Espique, wodez ,thibot and H8TEIRIS to piss on their souls as well.

Next, he will visit chris_kabuki, fewt, CPUGuy, Asheron, mmatheny, grturne, innersanctum, fusewerx, falcocw, IssacNewton and myself to thank and reward us with the heads of those above on sticks.

I said it earlier and would say again your sense of humour sux as much as u do. Nothing much to say & make out of your posts now.

Is this really necessary? I don't agree with the America-bashing, but insulting somebody while trying to make a point just displays ignorance... c'mon.

Hi MurdockAT,

You're right. It's just my warped sense of humor at work in trying to get through to these guys. I do not wish innocent people to die any more than I would want to die myself BUT it is the sad reality of war. Innocent people die in ANY war and this one is no different. But the fact is, the US Military is not on a bombing mission to Kabul, it is on a bombing mission to terrorist camps and hideouts in the mountains of Afghanistan and if curious "innocent" Afghan civilians are stupid enough to be there when it happens then it will be stupidity that kills them, NOT US.

For the Afghan civilians to be in their homeland/areas they live in where the terrorists also hide is their own stupidity?? I am sure u left ur brains back at home before you came to work.

How about the "innocent" 5 and 6 year kids that walked over to American Jeeps in Vietnam and dropped hand grenades in them? Were the Americans supposed to say "Gee Joe, isn't that cute, that little kid just dropped a grenade in our jeep?" I have seen ACTUAL scrapbooks of US troops from Vietnam and they are something out of the most horrible nightmares you could ever imagine. Nevertheless, this stuff happens and can't be ignored by our troops. You guys should go put flowers in gun barrels.

Although not all of us, but a number of us are capable of considering things from several different angles. Please do not allow Compdoc and fewt be an example of all Americans who's close mindedness only allows them to see two sides to every situation. Unfortunately, while not as aggressive, I fear their opinion reflects the majority of Americans in the terms of revenge and will only deepen the scar America has already created for itself within foreign policy. Nothing good can come from this situation unless we re-evaluate our approach to the rest of the world. Which does exist in greater numbers and diverse minds. Sometimes I think Americans forget this..

yeah.. looks like the good/intelligent american ppl r beginning to show up here now :)

Its good to see there are some pleasant and rational americans out there somewhere. Hopefully this will begin to spread a little as people calm down as time goes on. The world can certainly do without too many people with fewts and compdocs attitudes.

So you are saying that we (The majority of Americans) are stupid because we want justice/payback/revenge? How dumb is THAT? Step up to the plate, are you man enough to back up such a statement on American soil? We have most of the world behind us remember? Who's closed minded?

fewt. if you want all afghans dead (and heads on sticks and whatever other sick things your sick mind can come up with) then why dont you get yourself out there and get started on it then? or maybe you are only saying these things because its easy for you to say things like that while you are in a nice warm comfortable office not getting your hands dirty? Maybe your opnions would be different if YOU were out there fighting, if YOU had to watch fellow americans around you being killed?

I think you should enlist and go fight the war that is so right if you believe so strongly its the right thing for america to do. I suspect you wouldnt be missed by many people when you came back in a body bag.

NOFEAR = Paradox

Perhaps FunkyFred remembers the British TV show "The Prisoner"?

Good/Intelligent American people would skin your a** alive for stating such things in public. Maybe you guys should take a trip to the WTC wreckage and preach your tripe? They have extra body bags I'm sure.

I did enlist.

Watching fellow Americans dying around me would only push me further towards my goal of eliminating the enemy, and were I to die on the battlefield I would not do so without eliminating as much of the threat as possible, even if that included the intentional ending my life in the process. That is what differentiates me from you, while you are pissing your pants I would die to save your g** d***ed life.

Oh good! hope you get called up!

It always amuses me when people insult people they obviously dont know at all. like you dont know me at all.

Compdoc's 1 out of many problems is to recognise what is good/intelligent and whats 'plain stupid'. Even if I go there at WTC the ppl overthere would say the samething which I and someothers here said besides some brainwashed ppl roaming around the area who want blind revenge and never knew what justice was. Its good 'most' of the US govt does'nt have ppl like u in it else god knows where US would be right now.

fewt? try to understand things in the way they are meant. By the words 'majority of americans' in my context is the majority of them here (the list starts by compdoc and u following it) are stupid to seek revenge not justice. And yes if i was asked to say that on US soil I'd and probably get supported by lots of ppl there. unlike those I mentioned earlier.
You said u'd die to save other allies life? thats the biggest joke so far in these posts. Many more still to come from u guys no doubt..

I think that is the whole point to my message, if you had read it you would have understood. "While you are pissing your pants, I would die to save your g** d*** life"

means: You are chickens*** and probably afraid to fight (read: tree hugger, don't prosecute anyone for breaking laws (read: your views on microsoft compared with posts here tells me that)), I would die to protect you even though I don't know you, AND know that you HATE ME. That is what makes me different from you PERIOD.

Tell me, what is so funny about the fact that I would gladly give my life to save another? How is that a joke? You obviously do not understand American culture if you think that I was joking.

Whats so funny is that, a guy like u who does'nt care about anything just wants revenge would care to 'gladly' give life for another? very easy to say u know.
I do understand american culture coz I've stayed there as well, there are many (i mean alot) of americans who can and will sacrifice their lives for their allies soldiers but none of them would have the sort of thinking similar to yours, and by the way STOP thinking that whatever I post here about u n compdoc is meant for the 'rest' of the american ppl, it does'nt apply for them.

Did I say I didn't care about anything? Did I say I only wanted revenge? Don't put words in my mouth! I want justice, I want the end of terrorism. I want the world to know that the civilized world will not tolerate terrorist actions any longer, I don't want innocent people to die, forumtrollfred put those words into my mouth. I do however want action against the taliban for allowing bin laden to flee the country while they covered for him by demanding proof. THE WHOLE WORLD KNOWS HE DID IT! I want the US to remove the taliban, and give the country to the northern alliance, I want those who cheered that my people were killed at the hands of a terrorist eliminated. Unfortunately innocents will die in the process, it is something that can not be avoided in a time of war. Personally I want bin ladens head hung below the american flag blowing in the wind over the remains of my dead countrymen I want the image of the terrorist groups dead leader to BURN into the minds of those who would revenge his death. I want the people of the WORLD to be free of terrorism PERIOD.

Better me than you right?

Fine with me.

And so you prove you DONT know me. I too would fight if I thought it was the best option. I too would die fighting for/protecting someone else. If you stopped having tantrums all the time and responded more sensibly you might have learnt that about me a long time ago.

We all want the world to be free of terrorism here, who does'nt want that, who said anything against that in all the posts till now? No one.

We all support seeking justice BUT not revenge, coz revenge is immature and would just increase the problems actually creating more osama bin ladins. You say u never wrote anything about wanting the innocent ppl getting killed for no reason, well ok.. but u seem to be sorta supporing compdoc who in any and every way seems to ask for revenge (which he terms as justice) but thats not what true justice is dude. If u too care about the helpless ppl's lives who hav nothing to do with their ruling govt taliban then thats good.

You might have seen footage on bbc/cnn or any other news channel about the way of life in Afghanistan, even the most urban areas overthere look like a village. Any one would feel pity for them, don't they have the right like all of us to live a life of peace and harmony? UN aid workers there say many ppl would just die due to starvation as they get more n more displaced due to the refugee crisis and the increasing strain on UN's own food supplies. They hardly got over a long war with the soviets and now they face even bigger intl' war crisis for how long, only time will tell.

I have been listening to voice of america radio regularly and just after what happened on the wtc and pentagon, the UN workers in afghanistan themselves (who are of mostly western origin) said that the ppl there do feel bad about what happened and they don't support such attacks on innocent ppl getting killed as they themselves experienced that in the last decade having lost many of their loved ones in the war against soviets.

Unfortunately Fred, it is the ONLY option at this point and the sad reality is that innocent people will die in the process. It happens in EVERY war, not just this one, and will happen in every future war as well.

Well written, theye.

It just seems to me that the current non-military methods (better use of inteligence, blocking funds etc) seem to be having good results already.

The only thing that is currently worth bombing in afghanistan are places linked with the opium production which is apparently a major source of funds for the terrorists. Other than that, (supposedly) no one knows where bin laden is, the terrorists left the camps days ago. There are no other obvious targets that have more than a slight chance of hitting something of importance, but all of them will almost certainly have huge loses of innocent people.

The miliary conflict (if it ever starts) just seems pointless to me. There is just a bigger risk than there is anything to gain from it. Besides, war wont end terrorism, it will just fuel it more.

Well i dont mean to be insulting or anything, but this place would be a lot more pleasant without you picking fights with anyone who doesnt even appear to share your opinions!

That comment should not be one sided ;-)

fair enough! but i dont plan on going anywhere!

For a break from the bloodlust, check out the new stories on The Onion.
Especially read the Point-Counterpoint.

...........IF YOU ARE NOT WITH US (THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA)

THEN YOU ARE WITH THE TERRORISTS!!!!!!!

YOU HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THAT THEN MAYBE WE SHOULD HAVE YOU INVESTIGATED BY THE FBI AND SEE WHO YOU ARE AFFILIATED WITH?

GOT IT THIS TIME?

HOPE SO

AND I'M SURE TONY BLAIR WOULD HAVE NO PROBLEM HANDING OVER YOUR TRAITOROUS a** TO THE FBI.....

WANNA FIND OUT?

Quit being so self-righteous.
You (you personally, and the country of the United States) cannot order the rest of the world to fall into place behind the USA. It is statements, actions, and attitudes like this that breeds the extreme actions that had recently happened.
I, for one, am quite disturbed by this situation. Canada has long been known as an international peacekeeper. Peacekeeper, not Global Police Enforcement. We will not force our ideals onto the world. We will not attempt to control some other countries' government, civilians, or economy. It's because of this that we as a country have few enemies. Now we're expected to either pledge our complete and utter loyalty to the US, or we will (likely) be threatened with attacks from our neighbor for not completely siding with them.
Not to get me wrong, I do not support, endorse, or encourage in any ways what happened. But does the attitude "JOIN US OR DIE!!!" not sound grotesque? You people need to exhibit *some* restraint and self-control.

I agree with u completely on this Canuck , ur posts show their r still ppl in northern america *who can think* rationally.
This compdoc guy needs to visit some psychiatrist soon to help him understand things in the way they really are and not the other way.

You REALLY have NO idea what freedom is do you?

Cant wait for america to bomb countries who are famous for being impartial during conflicts such as switzerland. They probably wont fully support america, so obviously they are with the terrorists as well then?! dumba**!

Exactly my point.

*rolls eyes*

Do you exist for the sole purpose of disagreeing with others? You are clearly someone who is likened to the defence attorneys of the US but much worse. They routinely use the same tripe to free their GUILTY clients as you are attempting to use to free the poor innocent Afghans. Like I said previously, guilt by association. They live in Afghanistan with the Taliban rulers and could have went to Pakistan before the borders closed or to the Northern Alliance as well. Eveidently, they have no backbone OR they aggree with the Taliban. If the latter is true, they DESERVE to die. They chose to stay, they chose to die. Thats it. Do you also think Hitler shouldn't have been punished for bombing the hell out of London in WW2 and killing YOUR countrymen? Probably! Stop hiding behind your rediculous self righteous defence of "human rights". "Don't execute vicious criminals, just love them and they will stop their evil deeds". LOL! I heard someone who should be ashamed to call themself an American state just that on "CNN - Talk Back" the other day. I wanted to THROW UP! The SOB is a damn traitor. Like it or not, there are innocent deaths that occur in ANY war and this one will be NO exception. ALL is fair in love and war baby.

"Bring his head home on a stick, and hang it over the remains of the 5000+ world citizens that he has killed! May Alah piss on his soul!!

WOOHOOO!!!!"

This was the funniest thing said in the thread so far, I've been laughing about it for days now!! LOL! {:D

you're just sick. simple as that.

You know, I used to laugh at people who claimed movies and games were lowering moral standards and values of human rights etc. After the comments of you and fewt Im beginning to wonder if there is a link there. America and americans one of (if not the) biggest producer of material that could be causing it now seems to think blowing things up is the only form of justice and sick comments like the head on a stick comment... america does seem to have a real problem growing.

LOL! Once again Fred shows his true colors by distorting the TRUTH and ignoring the FACTS! LOL!

May Allah piss on your soul as well! LOL!

Thanks :-)

If thats freedom, maybe afghanistan is a better place to live afterall! Being abusive to someone simply because they dont share your opinion is pathetic. Is there any wonder I made my comments about americans if you are an example of one?

Some people might think that by considering this to be true that I am being open minded. But you and fewt obviously dont understand what open mindedness is.

You want abusive? huh American hater?

I once read about a particular law not unlike Murphy's laws, that once the Nazi's have been mentioned, the argument is lost. Perhaps this pathetic display of hatred should end (and quickly).

uh.. ur sense of humour sucks dude.

If you were an afghani national I don't think u would say the same thing here, u too would voice ur opinion regarding ur safety eventhough u were'nt on the Taliban's side.

Everything is fair in love n war? yeah when it comes on u then u evaluate this saying urself. Know what? ur sense of humour sucks.

Also why should the afghani people leave their own country and homeland, to save their lives? and become refugees for god knows how long till the war is over? i guess u need to do some serious rethinking about urself.

Guilt by association? what the hell can the ppl do under such a dictator-like govt? they are only associated by their nationality/religion but not with their frame of minds with the taliban regime. Get it?

I don't think *any* rationally thinking american would agree with u on these above standpoints, no matter how much anger n grief they have over those terrorist attacks.

You an Afghan? If so, do us all a favor and off yourself before the US Military does.

The quote concerning the Nazi's,

"Do you also think Hitler shouldn't have been punished for bombing the hell out of London in WW2 and killing YOUR countrymen? Probably!"

was directed to FunkyFred, who seems to think that we should all "Tiptoe through the tulips" and let murderous scum live!!

I'm REALLY getting pissed by all the septic tank foam here with their lofty visions of some man made "Shang-Gri-Friggen-La" and thinking that NON-ACTION is the best course for The United States Of America!!!!!!!

Well F**k That!!!!!!

You're gonna see action baby!!

Kill 'em all and let God sort em out!!

It'd be more appropriate for u to do that so other users don't start thinking that the whole US is filled with ppl like u who rarely ever use their bean sized brains.

You give him far too much credit.

Did I say whoever did it should survive? nope. Just that the people of afghanistan people in general DID do it so shouldnt be punished.

I have no desire to be abusive or to have conversations with abusive people like you or compdoc.

This "american hater" thing is getting very old and tiresome btw. (and still very inaccurate).

Then shut the hell up, and go away. Quit replying.

Why is the American hater still here? Does betanews.com support his Anti-American attitude? Get him the hell out. Don't go quoting freedom of speech either.

I have as much if not more right to be here than you. I havent been banned in the past and dont regularly have my posts deleted unlike you.

Shut the hell up, if memory serves you were the prime target of 9/10ths of the deleted messages too. If your statement was accurate I would still be gone, obviously you do not know the whole story.

lol you really are living in a dream world arent you? ONE of my posts has been deleted, and I suspect that was only because the whole thread was deleted. ONE.

Who was the one having a right little tantrum in another article at having so many of your messages deleted? YOU.

As for you being banned, well I was only going by your previous bragging of how they couldnt get rid of you.

I don't think fred is saying anything anti american here in the real sense.. from his posts it seems that he is concerned about the innocent afghans getting killed for no reason or their involvment with the Talibans, whats wrong in this? Many americans do share the same views as well and I also agree with him here.

Secondly does'nt he have the right to post his opinions here? even if it was anti american (though its not) he STILL can post it here. Betanews is'nt all american national website, its for visitors from all countries all over the world who have different opinions.

I guess some of you were COLD HEARTED people that couldn't give a rats a** about what happened on 9-11-01 and now think that nobody should be punished for it. Well go to hell, go straight to hell. Do not pass go, do not collect $200.00. Freedom...... such a strange prospect. Unfortunately for you, our founding fathers did NOT mean for anyone to have the freedom to commit acts of terrorism and go unpunished for it. Freedom comes at a great cost and when you VIOLATE the sacred trust given to us to DO THE RIGHT THING in a free society, you can expect the ultimate punishment.

I do care what happened very much btw. And yes the people who did it dont deserve freedom and should be punished. THE PEOPLE WHO DID IT, not the innocent people from a country they were believed to be from.

If you harbor a criminal, you are just as guilty as the person who committed the crime. It's called "guilt by association". That is the law in the US, the UK and all other civilized nations as well. They committed a crime in the US and therefore fall under US law. CASE CLOSED.

Now we can do as fewt said and,

"Bring his head home on a stick, and hang it over the remains of the 5000+ world citizens that he has killed! May Alah piss on his soul!!

WOOHOOO!!!!"

Please note that the victims in the WTC were WORLD CITIZENS, NOT just US citizens. This was an attack on the WESTERN way of life, the symbol that represented it and those who loved it. They wouldn't hesitate to kill YOU as well Fred, you may now remove your head from your ass.....

CASE VERY NOT CLOSED!.
Its the taliban how are supposedly harbouring bin laden. Are the taliban the only people in afghanistan apart from the northern aliance? no? oh so why should the innocent people there be punished for the crime then? Did they elect the taliban? no? So there is no reason what so ever to punish the people of afghanistan then?

Besides, Im no lawyer, but I thought punishing people under US law only applied if they were actually in the country. The taliban havent been in america so therefore cant be punished "due to US law". Bin laden most definitely cant.

Well the only good thing that would come from that would be the certainty that USA would never have ANY input or belong to UN (and other aliances) human rights panels ever again!

So you are a UN official now? That's a large claim for such a narrow minded man.

You obviously don't know US law.

I kinda said that in the post. Guess you just like making yourself look stupid?

Um quite a justifiable claim considering USA has already been kicked off the UN board of human rights earlier this year.

Why is it always the people most narrow minded that constantly go on about other people being narrow minded?

Do I even need to reply here? .. .. I thought not .. ..

Go home American hater.

Why is it that only you are right? Go away already.. Enough trolling already. This isn't the damn place or the time for it!

Prove it, where are the "non American news report so it will be accurate" news links?

Here's one:
http://www.globalissues....anRights/Abuses/USA.asp
I'm not sure about how truthful it is, but there it is, nonetheless.

Did I say only I was right? there are several posts in here by other people who seem to have simular opinions to me (maybe you dont even really KNOW what my opinions are?). Infact tere seem to be more in here that agree with me than there are that agree with you (hmm deja vu... I remember this situation in an older article where you claimed you were right and everyone agreed with you until I listed all the people who agreed with me).

heres another (just the first one of over 1000 results when I did search, no doubt there were more credible news sources in there somewhere but Im not wasting time on you looking).

http://www.newsmax.com/a...s/2001/5/3/195150.shtml

Now will you please shut up?

I just found one on CNN.com:
http://www3.cnn.com/2001...06/us.rights/index.html

strange.. never expected this sort of news about US who itself talks the most about human rights and related stuff.

exactly.... makes you wonder exactly what america is fighting for, because it certainly cant be human rights or freedom. Maybe there OWN freedom at the cost of the rest of the worlds, but thats about the only form of freedom and human rights america seems interested in.

Someone brought it up, so I felt inclined to give a brief response. But as you say, that barrel of monkeys should be released some other time.

I am ashamed I even let myself fall into this rhetoric. I respect all of you when it comes to discussions about the tech world (yes, even the Linux vs. MS debate), but when it comes to politics and world affairs..... that faint sucking sound keeps getting louder and louder. Oh!! It's all of you with your silly opinions of what is right and what is wrong. Some of you are brainwashed into thinking one way, while others are so damned stubborn and narrow minded that you think everyone else sucks if they don't think like they do.

[purposeful cap lock moment]
THIS IS NOT A POLITICAL FORUM! MASTURBATE WITH YOUR OWN SELF-RIGHTEOUSNOUS ON YOUR OWN TIME. HEY BETA NEWS...HOW ABOUT SOME NEWS ON TOPIC!!!!

[flame away kids]

And so the geeks of Betanews have spoken their minds, minds that, true to geek form, cannot be persuaded to view something from another perspective.
Bravo!
The discussion in this one article would make quite the case study.

Over-reaction?
Fair enough this news isn't about a beta product or even IT, but a lot of sites despite their usual content have included something in regards to what happened in the USA. So I think it was quite appropriate for BetaNews to show 'their respects' so to speak. Althought with half of the posts on this topic being of the nature that they are, this story should be moved along and replaced with a different 'top story'. And yes everyone here thinks they're right - that doesn't end with politics either.

Yes Canuck, it is true. I cannot let myself be persuaded into thinking that comments such as "Bring his head home on a stick, and hang it over the remains of the 5000+ world citizens that he has killed! May Alah piss on his soul!!" and "England doesn't do much of anything without the US." are coming from educated American citizens. These comments sound more like something my 10 year old would say to his group of buddies to look cool. "Yeah! I got an opinion! Let's kick their ass! Huh huh, heh he."

May this thread rest in peace (or someone here might kick it's ass!)

Well believe it.

I completely agree with Hummy about his second post in this thread (but not the first ones the way he wrote it). Surely Betanews did the right thing by posting an article about the terror attacks to show their respect. I think its good to discuss things here so other users can share their views and also understand others opinion regarding it but ofcourse in the right manner, not like flaming eachother off.

I think it's great that the article was posted here, I'm all for talking about it, I'm also all for posting my views (I want his head on a stick, there is nothing wrong with that, that's the majority vote here in my office.) and not getting blasted (That has never happened here) for it. I don't however think that the nationalistic sort of racism that has been shown here belongs here. I won't tolerate it, the moderators had better take action against him, and let americans know in this thread that they have done something about it. Betanews banned me because I chewed rear including theirs, that is NOTHING compared to what fred has said. Anyway I'm done with that subject. Lets talk.

Thanks.. I too fell victim to the hot headedness of the room.

Oh give it up already. I havent said anything near as bad as most of what your posts are.

fewt hit the nail on the head with,

"Bring his head home on a stick, and hang it over the remains of the 5000+ world citizens that he has killed! May Alah piss on his soul!!

WOOHOOO!!!!"

So let it be written, so let it be done.....

The then Soviet Union tried for almost 10 years to conquer Afghanistan (some of you were probably still in diapers). The Afghanis lost hundreds of thousands of people, the Soviets lost around 15,000 soldiers. Did the Soviets end up winning? NO! It was the Vietnam of the USSR.

Afghanistan is a desolate landscape, locked in by Muslim neighbors in every direction. Very few maintained roads. Lots of rock. I can't imagine what the US could possibly gain from attacking such a region. I suppose the body bag industry will see a sharp increase, but that is about it.

Ok.... do you have any clue at all?

The US isn't trying to "gain" anything from it, except justice.

We are now at war with terrorism, and countries that harbor them, we aren't trying to take it of.

We (england) recently released hundreds of IRA terrorists back into society, does that mean america is going to have a go at us at some point? come on then! have a go if you think ya hard enough! Oh no wait, america darednt do anything these days unless england is on their side.

I hope that the United States exacts revenge upon the guilty party responsible for the WTC attacks. But they have an impossible battle if they think that by killing Osama, that suddenly all terrorism against the US will cease. That simply isn't clear thinking. Regardless of how many grunts they kill in Afghanistan, the religious hate will still exist, and likely greatly increase it through warring with them. This hate currently exists in many countries besides Afghanistan, so levelling one country will accomplish little.
The US media and president should not attempt to fool the public into thinking that the world will be transformed into a peaceful utopia from attempting to kill one person. It will not happen.

Hmmm... I don't think you read.

There is a difference, England isn't harboring terrorists, places like Afgahnastan are.

Second, that's b/c England is our greatest allie, as Bush said rightly when he addressed Congress and the nation the other night. England doesn't do much of anything without the US.

you r right but not exactly religious hate, the terrorists are actually against what they call US globalisation to be specific, they have nothing to do with religious hate (although they might be against US supporting israel all the time), but besides that nothing else really which would make them do things on such a big scale on the WTC.

ya.. justice.. that will make me sleep better at night.

This is going to turn into a giant Whack-A-Mole game. Osama moves from country to country and the US - with all it's might - smashes all the countries he hides in.

CPU...hope he hides in your neighborhood.

...Then you might understand - even just a little - how all of the civilians might feel that live in that part of the country.

Um what about the world wars? what about the various yugoslav conflicts etc of recent years that america entered into late if at all?

Do you think at all? It doesn't seem like it.

What the US is looking for is cooperation from the government, not to flatten whatever country he is in.

I am wondering if some of you have even one OUNCE of commen sense.

I tell you what, the US gets blamed for crap if they don't help at all, and when they do help... it's not America's job to keep peace, but we do it anyway.

Those things, we did something about the problem, unlike any other nation in the world. (excluding world wars, which were thought of as European wars until for WW1, our ships started getting attacked, b/c in reality, we WERE indeed helping the effort, giving Britain supplies, and in WW2 when we were attacked by Japan at Pearl Harbor).

Basically, you need to shut your mouth and then learn something before re-opening it.... ungreatful idiot.

Agreed.

lol

I desire an intelligent reply, CPUGuy, and not your standard "I'm better than you and I know it" reply. Try again.

Maybe if you read the comment, I could do that.

"We are not deceived by their pretenses to piety. We have seen their kind before. They are the heirs of all the murderous ideologies of the twentieth century. By sacrificing human life to serve their radical visions, by abandoning every value except the will to power, they follow in the path of fascism, and Nazism, and totalitarianism. And they will follow that path all the way, to where it ends: in history’s unmarked grave of discarded lies."

"By sacrificing human life to serve their radical visions, by abandoning every value except the will to power, they follow in the path of fascism, and Nazism, and totalitarianism. And they will follow that path all the way, to where it ends: in history’s unmarked grave of discarded lies."

Yep that sums it up perfectly. There is america yet again going to the middle east with what most people in afghanistan would regard as "radical visions". America abandoning all the values and going over there with awesome firepower obviously with the intent on "sacrificing human". "And they [america] will follow that path all the way, to where it ends: in history’s unmarked grave of discarded lies." (there will be a LOT of unmarked graves again, of allied soldiers, and we know the american government lies when it suits them - you said so yourself).

Firstly, you forgot to mention "murderous ideologies of the twentieth century" in there somewhere and although the majority of the world would apply that statement to terrorists I'm sure you'd still find a way to apply it to the Americans.

Secondly, those "radical visions" are fairly much shared by most if not all of the civil nations on this planet, not just America.

Thirdly, "America abandoning all the values", i don't think you could be more wrong. They're abandoning all their values by standing up for them and trying to protect them? How'd you come up with that?

Lastly, "sacrificing human" is an unfortunate part of war. Unless you can come up with some magic bullet or bomb or whatever that targets only bad people, innocent civillians will always be killed. That's not to say that killing innocent civillians is right - but you tell that to the terrorists who killed over 5000 people in New York, including themselves.

America wants revenge. America wants to kill people in revenge. Why else would there be so much fire power heading to the gulf? there is nothing left in afghanistan to target with that amount of fire power!

The loss of human life is usually an unfortionate side effect. However, I dont think its a side effect this time, its the number one aim this time.

No, the number one aim is to wipe out, or cripple terrorism. The point of this is not "revenge", and it's not to kill humans.

If you see it this way, you really should evaluate how you think.

How else am I supposed to think with the huge fire power heading towards the gulf? I mean.... america is even moving several submarines into that area! what on earth do they need to be there for to fight just a couple of hundred terrorists (which almost certainly arent in afghanistan now anyway!)

WILL SOMEONE PLEASE BAN THIS GUY!!!!

damn!!

You want him banned because he speaks his mind?
He has as much right to an opinion as you do.
Try to respect that.

He's a biggot, he does not belong here, he has said so himself in other posts, then corrected himself when called on it. You can see by his posts that he hates americans. He needs to be shown the door.

It's called war, once we make our first strike, there will undoubedly be attacks against us by Afghanastan, and probably other nations.

And by wanting him booted because he hates Americans, does that not make you a bigot, also?

Please explain how terrorism can be wiped out on a global scale.

yeah, I am a biggot biggot, make you feel better? I hate biggots, I hate the thought of biggotry, that makes me a bad bad man. Ban the guy already and end this damn thread you are making yourself look like a fool.

Notice I said "wipe out, or cripple". As the press uses the term wipe out, but it really means to cripple it.

So you hate yourself then? Quite understandable. Anyway give it up with this biggot rubish. I cant help it if some americans seem to make it their main aim in life to make the whole world hate them can I? (you being a perfect example of this).

Shut the hell up you useless piece of s***, and go the hell back where you came from you will find no love from anyone here. American hater..

Are you making an example of an american?

No, I'm making an example of a lousy no good biggot. (yeah, I'm taking your words out of context)

its spelt bigot btw.
big'ot n. person intolerant or not receptive of ideas of others.

Id say you were just as much if not more so a bigot than I am by that definition. so shut up already.

That's right, I hate "bigots" excuse me for the spelling error, I didn't know I needed to spellcheck "get the fsck out posts". You have major issues upstairs, I'd like to suggest professional help. In the interim, get lost.

ahhh nice to be back to the personal (and groundless) insults again eh? :)

It has been personal since you opened your mouth about your feelings towards my people.

Yep its been very childish on your part since then also.

So when they say "eliminate terrorism", they really mean "temporarily slow it down"?

We need to WIPE OUT TERRORISM, that means anyone that is quasi related to a terrorist needs to die, period. Leave no room for retaliation period.

You really do believe that is at least almost achievable dont you?!

If you are thinking realistically, yes.

As long as people are oppressed, terrorism will flourish.
Stop the oppression, and you will stop the terrorism.
Maybe the world should work on *that*.

To those responsible for the attacks on the United States and her Allies... May God have mercy on your souls, for we will not. God Bless America.

how hypocritical - you're saying "May God have mercy on your souls, for we will not." - if you're saying that God have mercy on their souls, why aren't you being merciful? i agree that they need to be punsihed, but they need to be forgiven at the same time. we, as individuals need to forgive the terrorists; the US government, as a government, should punish the terrorists

I seem to remember an old US Marine saying: "Kill em all and let God sort 'em out." I guess you would have to go to NY and stand in the 11 day old wreckage of the WTC without a mask to realize how stupid you sound. Human flesh starts to smell pretty bad after 3 days and the job won't be finished for 6 months, they say. There ARE 20,000 feared dead in the two towers and another 10,000 feared dead in the shopping mall below street level. This was reported on CNN the night of the second day after the attacks but withdrawn before they had proof. We'll the rotting proof is being uncovered at a much more human to rubble ratio than previous days, as of today, and will get much harder to identify as they get deeper. The people on the lowest floors actually got the worst of it and they are most likely paper thin from 110 stories of concrete slabs successively smashing lower slabs ever closer together as they fell. Sleep on that tonight.....

surely the 20,000 and 10,000 figures were withdrawn due to the MISSING numbers being much lower than that, not for the reasons you mention?

Oh well, at least america wont leave the smell of human remains when they incinerate the whole of the middle east.

I have just watched the repeat of the telethon from last night, and from the look in the eyes of all the entertainers on there it is obvious that the whole world should be scared. America doesnt want justice, it wants revenge, it wants to at least equal the numbers of dead in the middle east. If I was in the middle east Id be VERY scared right now, no matter what country I was in. America wants to kill people, anyone. The biggest, most powerful super power, with almost every member of their population united wanting to kill people in revenge. THAT is VERY scary.

As the days go on, the more I hear people compare this to pearl harbour and we know how america ended that. Bush has already proven he wont think twice about ripping up previous treaties. This war could very easily end with america using nukes again.

Just as FunkyFred says:

"The biggest, most powerful super power, with almost every member of their population united wanting to kill people in revenge. THAT is VERY scary."

That is g** d*** scary. And what scares me (as a european) the most is your blood hungry stupid president Mr. Bush. He is going to bomb the whole middle east without the slightest blink of evidence.

"This war could very easily end with america using nukes again. "

So someone please stop that jerk!

I would'nt really be surprised if Bush does go on to break any previous treaties. He has already broken the anti missile (test) treaty or whatever its called (in the favour of the nation as he says).
The previous posts have said it right , most americans want revenge not justice (except a few of them who don't hold any power), I have seen many veteran americans who have echoed the same thing, they don't want more bloodshed for clear revenge just justice, but unfortunately they ain't the current security advisors anymore.
US already has proved earlier that to seek 'revenge' it'd take any move even if it helped them or not acheive what they wanted, like what they did the last time in afghanistan by firing cruise missiles, did it help in any way? not at all besides inflicting innocent civilian casualties. Y don't ppl remember that? That incident proved that US does'nt really have much of a planning & strategy, besides moving all its firepower to 'scare' their enemies (which has never helped them till now).

Ok.... the war with Japan was not a "war with nukes", exactly 2 nukes were used, that's hardly what you describe it as.

Second, if you cared to read ANYTHING on the war, or on the Japaneese, you would know that they have a very different perception of life. The Japanese fight to the death, and we knew that.
It would have cost more lives on both sides if we just tried to defeat their military by what was then "conventional", than using the nukes did.

And yes, the look on a persons face after a loved one has been purposfully killed is that of revenge. However, the US is not out for revenge, it's out to stop terrorism.

We are at war, when you are at war, you move your weapons to a stragegic place. They aren't there just for the simple purpose of obliterating Afgahnastan. They are there to provide support for our
"special forces" units who will be the ones that do the real attacing.

You three have absolutly no sense at ALL.

Just out of curiosity, could you tell me how many times in history have atomic/nuclear weapons of mass destruction have been used on people?
I realize that the bombs dropped on Japan were the deciding factor in ceasing the war, but doesn't common sense tell you that such attacks should never be used except in the most extreme situations? This does not qualify for such drastic measures, regardless of what the population thinks. As a Canadian, I would be extremely against supporting such a decision by the US.
As humans, we're supposed to learn from our mistakes. Using nuclear weapons for such a small task would be one of the biggest mistakes in this century.

(marking on the calendar)

I totally agree with you.

Most of us agree that nukes are NOT the answer. There is a new form of bomb, claiming to be a nuke that seems promising (I can't say that I think we should use it or not mind you, as I haven't seen a whole lot about it) It embeds itself 500 feet below ground, then detonates creating an earthquake like reaction. Want to see a mountain killer, this appears to be the one. It claims to create minimal above ground damage, even still though I wouldn't want to drink the water after it hit. Just an opinion mind you, I've read about it in the news recently.

Now wait, I didn't say to use nukes? Did anybody say to use nukes? No, that was Fred being an idiot.

I can tell you right now, there probably isn't a single country right now that we would consider using nukes on in a time of war, unless a communist gov. is put back into Russia, and regains the might that they once had.

to move the weapons to a strategic place to provide support is ofcourse understandable, but in such vast numbers? few hundreds of fighter jets with so many aircraft carriers? i don't think so. i guess u need to use some sense while making comments here. Maybe US already knows (by the soviet's example) what they are heading for ie. lots of casualties on both the sides, it might very well turn into something worse than vietnam for which US is ready to put alot of whatever firepower its got.

They asked for it didn't they? You want we should send a few hundred troops over there, and call everyone else back? They wanted a war with the USA, we are sending the frickin USA!

Hey, now you know how it feels to be me, brian, aitvo (also me.. That's right they couldn't keep me out..), and many others that post here. United we stand, and it's about damn time!

Bring his head home on a stick, and hang it over the remains of the 5000+ world citizens that he has killed! May Alah piss on his soul!!

WOOHOOO!!!!

I think dear sir, its you that should be banned (again).

Strange, the US military leaders have repeatedly said they have no weapons that can do anything if he is in the mountains. But in your strange head you have still managed to come up with one! hmm.

Um well no the population of afghanistan didnt ask for it actually. A relativly small group "asked for it". Im pretty sure that afghanistan isnt a democratic country (but then again neither is america) so the population had no input into giving the small group in question the power to do such things.

Screw you lady.. Go back to your hole with the rest of the biggots.

Did I say that it was real? I said "I read about it in the news" what does that mean to you huh US hater?

Absolutely that's why they have all now gone to pakistan where they spew their hate for americans just like you have right? The taliban is bad, I think the US should move in, and give the country back to the northern alliance. Then we should move on into pakistan and anyone who fires on UN troops should be shot dead on the spot. Same with all other countries in the world, tell me fred, where are *YOU* hiding? biggotry breeds terrorism breeds violence.

That the US media is yet again pumping out propaganda to boost the "afghan bashing" attitude even more?

~sigh~ why cant americans see the bigger picture? Im from england (and am in england), but you would already know that if you actually read my posts.

I didn't know that I was so closed minded that I only read US news on the internet. I thought I read it on a WORLD NEWS SITE, the very same site that anyone else in the world can read. (provided that your government allows it) Are you sure you are english? You sure don't seem to know much about anything. You didn't just stop in on your way to mars or somethin did you??

a "WORLD NEWS" site based in and written by americans then?

I did know that, you need to learn how to read between the lines, that's half the battle towards ending your ignorant view of life, which in turn will help you see past your biggot ways.

Yeah, so I watch BBC too what's your point? Crawl back in your hole. See there's something we have, it's called freedom, freedom to read US news, freedom to read BBC news, freedom to read UK news, hell I've even been to saudi news sites lately, and yes we have the freedom to take all of the information from around the world and see things as they really are, and come to our own conclusions.

So how come you have completely missed the point that its the sanctions against ... well most of the middle east lol, its the air patrols, its the whole israel issue, its a million and one other things the americans are doing in the middle east that some people from that area dont think america should be doing? Just pure marrow mindedness then I guess.

Funny, I thought we just lifted most of those sanctions against some of those countries. So we shouldn't punish anyone for anything now right? That seems to be what you are saying.

If you are speaking about the sactions lifted today(?) against pakistan and india, then you should have also read that only some were lifted. Specificly the sanctions relating to the production of nukes I believe were the ones that were lifted. Hmm I wonder why that would be? Could it have anything to do with america hoping that another country throws a nuke at afghanistan first? Seems strange that america didnt want pakistan or india building nukes a few weeks ago, but now america has something to benefit from it they are allowed to do so again doesnt it?

So what!? We lifted their sanctions in order to use their land, it's called a deal, WTF is wrong with you? Take your head out of your a** and open your eyes.

...on this tragic date about 27.000 children died because they don't have enough food.

America, go get a life!

mmhmm, and America gives a LOT to the poorer nations, and makes donations to them to try and feed the hungry, and the poor.

The fact is here, 5000+ people were murdered for no other reason than to take away our inalienable rights as a human being, and to spread fear.

where do you americans get this rubish from? they did it because of america involvement in the middle east. They obviously thought what they did would get the reaction they wanted. They were maybe wrong.

Funny, now it's our fault because we stopped feeding them. Read the news lately? We just moved redcross and several other groups out of the area, but we didn't do anything to help them. Quit stinking up this forum with your garbage.

Is the american media really pumping out that much propaganda? Or are you just ignoring the real issues?

Funny, BBC is American? go figure. That's an odd accent for americans, but it's all good. I guess I am just blind to the fact that this internet thing lets me read news all over the world, and that I'm limited to viewing only American media. Damn.

Nope, BBC is allllll british. Although unfortionately they are quickly getting a reputation for biased news over here recently.

really? WOW, learn something new EVERY DAY!

Just like how they recently gave $43 million to the Taliban. Right?

The US STILL has'nt really proved in anyway that Osama bin Laden was indeed the one behind the attacks on the WTC and it started targetting afghanistan. They only say he might have links with some of the suspected hijackers. Just having links does'nt really mean he did support/organise the attacks. Also it ain't that easy for some one without any communication facility (as the taliban were quoted saying) to organise something of such a scale so far from afghanistan.

Secondly, Afghanistan's desicion to not handover Osama bin ladin can be justified in some ways like:

1. US still has'nt given concrete evidence that osama bin ladin was really involved, Taliban said it would handover osama for trial if they did get enough evidence he was the one behind.

2. Besides the above, osama is not just any civilian living in Afghanistan but a 'guest' as the talibans say.

3. He fought for them alongside against the Soviets.

4. Every country has the right to protect any civilans (not proved guilty) in its territory.

So taking into view all the above points it'd be very difficult for any country and not just Afghanistan to handover anyone, even the US would'nt really do that if it was in such a situation.

If you would rather believe a bunch of radical lowlife scumbag terrorists, go ahead. Perhaps you would like to make friends with these people? Have them over for dinner and maybe catch a Broadway Show afterwards? They would embrace you I am sure, just before they slit your throat from ear to ear and spit on your dying body as they said "One more of the Great Satan's followers is dead, thank you allah!"

Stop showing your ignorance by posting such comments. I am not supporting them as i mentioned earlier, but just trying to show their point of view about the topic of handing over osama bin laden. What would u really do if u were in their place under the same situation? just bow down under intl pressure and just do anything without even being convinced about anything? if u would then u would prove u r dumb!

Intense FBI scrutiny? yeah that showed when they did'nt have any clue as to something on this scale could happen, where did all those billions of dollars spent on the intelligence end up? The so called intense scrutiny is too late and just for a few days, its useless and causing trouble for other passengers.

Secondly it seems as if your mind is filled with crap which makes it difficult for u to understand what someone is trying to say here. I don't care what happens to the Taliban, its the innocent ppl whom I care for, they already have been living life as refugess in their own country and now they have to gear up for more trouble just a few years after the soviets went back. Why should they bare the problems and share the fate of the Talibans? If the US just wants to get rid of Taliban & Al Qaida group then what does it need so much fire power for? to scare the Talibans? if so then I don't think that will work.

The so called military might of the US should be used not to crush a particular govt/regime but it needs careful planning and strategy to eradicate terrorism not 100s of fighters, bombers and air craft carriers as if its going for a straight forward war with a known enemy or country there.

They need that much fire power because they know most of it will be destroyed by the afghans. The conflict hasnt even really started and america has apparently already had a spy plane shot down!

yeah maybe u r right, and then fighting from their bunkers dug into the mountains which can withstand anything, it seems US wants victory at all costs unlike the soviets who gaveup in the end after heavy casualities.
The plane shot down news got me by surprise, I did'nt expect things to actually (sort of) start that soon. At first I thought it was a rumour till I read it on CNN.
But the US does not want to elaborate on that.
One of the same spy planes was also shot down by Iraq this year.

wonder how much one of those things is worth? probably several million dollars wasted already.

In america like the hijackers did for the last year?

It has never been confirmed that it was a US spy plane, and ACTAULLY it was a helicopter that was shot down.

Wasted? I'd offer up some of my paycheck for another one, it's worth the risk.

Why? to fly around for a while, realise that there is no useful information to be picked up by spying, then get shot down. The guy isnt even in that country anymore!

Yeah, no use huh, where did you read that? I thought we were keeping the operation under wraps, even if they did get nothing, it was well worth the risk, and the dollars.

maybe a million dollars lost when the inteligence agencies have already admitted that the afghans have resorted to "no-tech" methods of communications since the attacks. Personally Id consider that a waste of tax money, but at least its your tax money being wasted and not mine at the moment.

Of everything that has happened in the last 2 weeks, I am very pleased the way the government has handled this horrible situation. One thing that I would like to request is that the government would confess to the lie they have told concerning the flight that crashed in PA. While it is nice to think that passengers overthrew the terrorists, it simply isn't true. I have a friend in the military and was told that Flight 93 was indeed SHOT DOWN by the US Air Force. Even though this is the case, did the government have a choice? If I was the President, I too would have ordered the plane shot down to save thousands of other lives. The government is doing a good job, but now, more than ever, is the time to be TOTALLY honest with it's citizens.

This does seem very odd. From what I have heard, the government say that air force jets were sent after the plane you mention and the pentagon one but neither got there in time. So why say jets were ordered to shoot down the planes, yet (if what you say is true) lie about one of them being successfully shot down?

The other thing that concerns me is what other lies are the US government telling people or what else are they covering up about all of this?

How do you suggest we handle this? A government cannot be seperated from it's people, and that is the unfortunate reality of war. You cannot declare war on a government and not harm it's innocent, and most of the time unwilling, citizens. Sorry for flying off the handle earlier, I personally was moved by Bush's speech. Our interference in (most) other countries is to deter and halt the inhumane acts that some governments enforce on it's captive civilians. It's been said most of the Afganistans don't believe in the ways of the Taleban, but how are they going to change it? Elect a new leader (as civilized countries do)? What's to keep the next attack on America (or anywhere) from involving a small nuclear device? What would you do then? I personally don't believe terrorism will EVER be stamped out - it's the easiest kind of warfare. I don't think we'll flatten Afganistan, but I may be surprised. And lastly, as for the 'I wasn't there, I'm alive' purported terrorists, lets see them alive. There is no need to hide if there weren't there or not involved. And yes, I'm predjudiced in my views, but again, isn't everyone posting here? And the ability to speak freely is what freedom is all about.

I dont know what the best option would be, but I would like governments to risk trying out a few more things first (yes I know there might be more attacks in that time but I believe going to war will sure have more allied casualties). One of the most interesting ideas that I would like to see given more time to work is the tracing of money and freezing bank accounts through out the world of anyone thought to be connected with terrorism.

Better use of inteligence information would be an obvious thing to work on as well. I have heard several stories of how the FBI/CIA were tipped off about various aspects of the attacks weeks in advance. Why didnt they take them seriously enough to throw the people and resources at investigating them then like they have done now? Yes they supposedly take all tip offs seriously, but I bet they didnt put 1/10 of the people/time/resources into it then as they are doing now. It took just a week afterwards for the FBI to compile a huge list of people suspected to be involved in this, if they had only put that much effort in two weeks before when they were getting the tip offs maybe they could have done more to prevent the attacks in the first place. Prevention before hand is always better than a cure afterwards isnt it? Inteligence wont work now, its too late, its probably too late to even FIND bin laden. He knows they are looking for him now.

I just think there ARE other options that maybe should be given more time to work before the military go in and kill millions of innocent people and get themselves killed.

You fail to realize that there are terrorist threats against the US on a daily basis.

Why do you think that millions of innocent people will be killed? Do you EVER think?

Why do I think millions will be killed? well because thats generally what happens when america decides to start shooting at a country.

Oh, only when Americans start shooting huh, how many of us Americans did your ancestors shoot at? Go away biggot. You are really showing your holier than thou attitude tonight aren't ya heh heh

Ok, so millions died in the Gulf War, and millions died in the attacks against Iraq, Afgahnastan, and Yugoslavia, and all wars/battles of recent years?

Oh, but you are reffering to the nuclear bombs sent to Herojima and Nagasaki in WW2 (56 years ago), where not even a million died.

Read a book.

God Bless NATO AND ALL OF THE COUNTRIES STANDING BESIDE THE USA!

Fred: You are a biggot and need to be banned.. This is my formal request mods.

but I live in the western world. I have freedom to have opinions.

You live in your own world, you said yourself you hate americans, you need to go where there are none. You do not have the right to be a biggot period. End of communication.

um where exactly did I say I hate americans on this page? If you are refering to a previous stories posts, then you will remember I corrected that statement later.

the only thing you HAVEN'T come out and said on this page is "i hate americans".....everything you have said seems to point that way thou.

But like you said - you have the freedom to express your opinions as I do mine and I think that it is great that we can do so. I just think there's appropriate and non-appropriate times for one to express their opinions. After all, just as an example, your opinion might be that all non-anglo-saxon people are below you - you have the freedom to say that, but it's also being an ignorant racist.

So when is the correct time to speak out and say that I think america is making big mistakes with their need for revenge? AFTER america has killed a few million innocent people?

Yeah, I lost that freedom once, I couldn't even browse these pages unless I masked my IP, and bounced off other computers. When I could read, I could not post. Fortunately they can't keep me down, where there is a will there is a way. Fred needs to go period. I'm sure I'll be gone again for a few days soon as the moderators see that I'm posting (HAHA) until enough of the other readers on my network complain that they can't get to betanews.com.

And why did you lose that freedom? wouldnt have been your abusive ways to other people on this forum would it (which you will note I try to avoid being because abusive posts get you nowhere apart from making you look very childish).

Who asked you biggot? The only reason they were considered childish was because they were aimed at *you*, now end this thread before I open up another can.

You think that right now is an appropriate time? Please keep in mind that I only ever made such a comment regarding your opinions of America and Americans due to the number of posts you have made. One would imagine that only a single or perhaps several posts would be required to get your opinion across - rather than 'fighting it out' with various people over a huge amount of posts.

America has just lost the World Trade Center and over 5000 lives, some of which were of those people trying to help others - don't you think that maybe this isn't the best time for anti-US comments? How would you feel if a similar attack occured in England - maybe even to someone close to you. Would you appreciate someone acting in the same way towards the UK as you do towards the US?

Ahhhh, but that would never happen right? Well I for one hope it doesn't, I wouldn't wish that upon anyone.

All I'm saying is have some respect, there may be a lot of 'bad' in America but there is also a lot of 'good'. Just because you currently believe that this occured as a result of the US' involvement in the middle-east doesn't make it right. There are several possible reasons why this might have occured - all with their fair share of credible information - and we don't know for sure exactly which is right.

Fred wrote:

Re: usa
Posted by FunkyFred on September 7th, 2001 at 7:40AM ET

never said we were. I just hate america and americans passionately

^^ That's enough for me, get him the HELL OUT OF HERE!

lol yeah just ignore my other post that followed.

Yeah, no problem, the truth was posted in the first message, you can't cover that up with an excuse as you so poorly attempted.

do you always ignore the details of peoples posts when they disprove your assumptions?

Look at the unity of the Republicans and Democrats........ And not just that, it is the ENTIRE FREE WORLD that is standing against terrorism now!! Those that live and these countries that are FREE and support or feel sorry for Osama and his cronies should be exiled to Afghanistan to fight with them if that is the way they feel. There is NO place for the weak in this battle. Stand with US or DIE with THEM!!

the weak vs the stupid eh? hmmm

Yes, kind of like the two sides of YOUR brain.

You will notice I generally dont respond to your direct personal insults. thats because I think I dont need to, its you that makes yourself look stupid with every one you post.

Isn't it funny how quickly the tides change, I agree with you too Compdoc!

huh? what on earth are you going on about now?!

Climb back into your hole and rot. If the US does not show the world we will not tolerate terrorism, then the whole world will be held hostage. THAT'S what bin Laden wants. If that's what YOU want, move to a country that already holds it's people hostage and make room for real men and women. OH, and also, don't expect the US to come to your aid next time you have an earthquake, flood, war, riot, or any other kind of disruption. Take care of your own a** from now on. I personally am tired of us doling out aid only to be slammed constantly. Basically, screw yourself! Looks like most of the negative posts are from outside the US. Obviously none of you lost anyone you know to this devasting act.

First and foremost, I would like to voice my formal objection to this political story on BetaNews (are we going to beta test a new missle?). Secondly, I find it disturbing that posts such as 'go back in your hole' are even real!

Note to the rest of the world: Comments such as the original post of this thread are not representative of the majority of citizens of the United States. Please ignore the ignorance.

You just don't seem to get it. The posts below don't really mean that the US should'nt show that it does not tolerate terrorism. US should give out that message that it does not tolerate it but not in this way by bringing 100s of fighter jets & bombers with so many aircraft carriers which would be enough to wipe out the whole country where more than 95% of the civilian casualties would include ppl who are innocent & have nothing to do with the taliban regime. They are already ppl ravaged by previous wars, there is'nt actually much left to target, no infrastructure there.
And don't think all the countries who have natural disasters/famines are living on the US support/aid, its the UN (collection of its members specifically) and not just US itself, so don't be mistaken about this.
Its not that we are insensitive and don't feel the pain of the families of the attack victims, we do share their grievances. But there are many ppl from the US itself who want to exercise caution while seeking justice so that it does'nt just clearly turn into blind revenge and costs millions of innocent lives more (including the US soldier's own casualties). I guess you might have already read the article on the url I had given below ( http://www.guardian.co.u.../0,4273,4259230,00.html ) . So it might turn into something worse than what happened in the Vietnam war, the Soviets could'nt conquer the afghans for 10yrs and retreated back, even if US manages to overcome the taliban it won't be without heavy casualties, which will make things worse above the current 6,333 ppl who lost their lives/missing.
Don't take this in a sort of offense, what my point is that US should be cautious in seeking justice for what happened on 11th and not just take it out on any country (most probably to show their might that they WERE invincible). Above all has the US given a concrete evidence that Osama bin laden is indeed involved with the incidents? Not yet! Just putting it all on anyone's name is'nt really going to wipe out terrorism. Even if it says that bin ladin has links with the hijackers does'nt really mean he is involved with them. And some reports on cnn suggest that 1 of the persons 'believed' to be a hijacker is alive and he called up his family soon after the plane crashes and told about his stolen identity. Same for 1 more person who is in Saudi Arabia and had NEVER been to US in his life, what you have to say about that?

Glad to hear it. From what I have seen from news coverage, on other forums, in chat rooms etc it was starting to appear that ALL americans are just plain blind as to what is going to happen from now on.

Glad to hear it. From what I have seen from news coverage, on other forums, in chat rooms etc it was starting to appear that ALL americans are just plain blind as to what is going to happen from now on.

Firstly, "then the whole world will be held hostage" is utter rubish. bin ladens problem is with america and america ONLY. IF britain etc become involved in a war with afghanistan THEN he will have reason to dislike other western countries.

Secondly, I am confused how the opinion inside america of what bin laden wants seems different to what a lot of people outside america are saying he wants. Americans say he is simply "jealous" and wants to hold america hostage for .... what reason exactly? People outside america are saying that he wants america to stop getting involved in middle eastern issues, to stop taking "western ways" to the middle east and "corrupting" middle eastern values. He apparently especially resents the way america has helped out israel with their issues. Yet americans ignore all this. Bin laden is simply "jealous" hmm.

problem is, if bin laden is simply "jealous" then retaliation may well be the best solution. However, if he wants america out of middle eastern issues, then retaliation will simply PROVE his point and gain him stronger support and additional support on his issues. Retaliation could very well just provoke him and his followers more, most of which will be out of afghanistan and planning their next attacks against america by the time america does anything.

Incidentally, Im from england. Your comments about america helping out england at least are utter rubish. We dont have earthquakes, we have floods every so often, but america has never done anything to help, as for wars, well last time america really helped out there was WW2 where america arrived VERY late, did very little apart from drink our drink, chew a lot of gum and seduce our women, and claim from then on that america won the war pretty much alone.

I have not lost anyone from anything like this, but you know what? thanks to the war that america is dragging the whole world into I may very well lose a lot of friends or family. Thanks america. Thanks a lot.

Ya know what Fred......... Take yer Socialist crap and stick it where the sun doesn't shine. I am an American and I have English friends but your tripe is very similar to the southern attitude in the US. The south STILL has pity parties for themselves because the north kicked their asses and outlawed slavery. Are you still upset over the Revolutionary War? Most of your countrymen have gotten over it and it is time for you to as well. Tony Blair is with us so it really doesn't matter what you think. You and your kind are without a doubt a VERY small minority in England which is a good thing. We have a number of mealy mouthed citizens who want to go and hug Osama instead of "Giving him the Smacketh Down" which he deserves and brought on himself. CNN reports that 95% of the American public is 100% in agreement with President Bush and thats good enough for me. The 5% fringe of tree hugging a******s WE DO NOT NEED and that applies to ANYONE that disagrees with our Presidents plan. IF YOU ARE NOT WITH US, YOU STAND WITH THE TERRORISTS AND WILL DIE WITH THEM!! Thank you for your time and I would like to personally thank ALL the countries that stand with the US in this matter. May God bless all of you.

Revolutionary War? oh yeah that was the war that was actually america, spain, france and probably a whole lot of other countries against britain. As usual most americans totally ignore the other countries involved and only mention how the powerful america defeated the "enemy". They ignore how it wasnt a Revolution, but more of a civil war with americans fighting other americans, that america yet again nearly turned into a world war.

But then again thats just another bit of history that america rewrote after the event hey? :)

Stop yer whinin and take yer Prozac

prozac is soooooo passé

I hate to tell you this, but all revolutionary wars are civil wars.

And as I recall, Britain sent British troups to fight the British-Americans (and allies there of).

As for your comment about WW2... I hate to say it, but all that was left by the time the US came into the war was a very much crippled Britain, and Russia. Also, I believe it was America who coordinated Operation Overlord, and America who ended the Japanese threat to the world. I also believe it was America who said "No, don't do that" when Britain, France, etc... all wanted to totally sanction Germany, and take away their land, and make them pay outrageos reparations after WW1.

Basically, the war would have never been won by the Allied forces if it weren't for the USA.

The problem with Middle Eastern values is that there are two sets of Middle Eastern values which conflict with each other and cause a war. The United States has been involved with trying to make peace in that area, and if you think otherwise, just think about what America is all about. That's right, it comes down to the money. By creating a stable area in the middle east, the United States creates a new area to open up trade and MONEYMAKING in. So peace is the ultimate goal for the US in the middle east. Osama has a problem with that because peace in the middle east involves making compromises to certain Holy Lands for his and others' religions, and men like Osama don't compromise.

The events of September 11 have shocked the world and caused sadness and grief in many nations, including my own. Like so many others I have felt numbed with sadness for the victims in New York and Washington and feel sympathy for the people of the USA. I support an effective response to terrorism in all forms because absolutely nothing can ever justify an expression of views or ideals through commission of terrorist acts, nothing. It will be almost impossible to stop terrorism completely, but I support developing effort to try do so and hope those efforts are maintained for as long as necessary. Issues that breed terrorism are complex and sometimes very sad and they deserve extensive study. It is true that nations fostering or harbouring terrorism contain many innocent and good people who have no part in it. The role of the free world will be to help and assist those people, but it remains that the first assistance we give them will be the action we take to bring terrorism to an end. This, in my view, is the only realistic approach.

Greg, Sydney, Australia.

I dont like this one little bit. I dont like how americans have reacted to this, I dont like how america is forcing ("you are either with america, or against us") the whole world into a world war, I dont like how the country forcing us into this war is led by a guy (bush) who came into power through not so democratic methods, I dont like how america seems to be seriously under-estimating the repercusions of any form of attacks on afghanistan. I also dont like how america is doing EXACTLY what bin laden wants them to do - his main complaint is how america throws its weight around in the middle east (israel etc) where it has no real business to do so, so what is america doing? giving the guy MORE PROOF of what he preaches against america. Worst of all, are the stories I have read today that there are small and maybe fake bits of evidence, yet they still should be considered but i bet america does not investiage them, that the trade center attacks maybe have been commited by israels secret service in an attempt to frame people from other states (afghanistan being just one of them). The father of one of the main hijackers claims his son CALLED him 24 hours AFTER the attacks saying that his passport etc had been stolen and he was being framed.

America could be walking into the biggest trap ever known. They are so blind to the terrible things israel are apparently up to it wouldnt surprise me at all if america were being tricked into going after the wrong country. Then there is the issue of pakistan people not supporting america at all so american troops will have a little problem there to start with (and thats with a supposed alie!) before they even get to afghanistan.

And what the hell do america need all that fire power heading towards the gulf for?! there is nothing in afghanistan to bomb anyway.

I dont like this at all :-/

I just don’t like you, any of you, good bye beta news, the people that are talking s***, have now made me resolve to never come back to this website, I have been around since '99, good bye guys, and to all the none Americans who want to talk trash, I’m glad that you feel this way about me as an American, who made who, and who made you. The EU and the UN can eat my fesses.

You don't like how America reacted because why? Because your liberal beliefs don't allow you to is my guess. This country hasn't done anything to another country as of yet. I think that our measured response is a testament to that. Now for the demands, I can understand what you are saying to an extent but it wasn't your family crushed or burned up in those buildings. It wasn't my family that was involved but I bet if you looked far enough into it, it wouldn't take a six degrees of separation to find someone who is close to me or possibly you that does have family involved. When or if the United States does take action against anyone, there will be no remorse for them from me as I have seen that they were not remorseful for us. I saw women, children, men....both young and old celebrating the loss of over 6000 Americans, Pakistani's, British, Austrailians, Turkish and many others. What our President is telling the world is that Terrorisn doesn't have a place in it anymore. He is going to take out the terrorists and rid us of them by whatever means in his power. Terrorists are the United States enemy. If you don't see that after what happened on September 11, then you are not obviously with the United States and by that I think that you stand with the terrorists. I stand by my President as a citizen of this great country and will defend my country if necessary against any enemies foreign or domestic. If you become my enemy by standing with the terrorists, I will defend myself and my country against you if necessary. I am not speaking as an opressor or dictator. I do not want your country. I just want to keep mine the way it is. As for the election process that you have decided to comment on, well, if you don't understand how our Constitution is written, then you don't understand democracy. There are checks and balances written into the Constitution to prevent one state from overwhelming selecting the President and to allow all Americans the opportunity to select the President that best represents the whole population. California could easily put the President in office almost single-handedly with their votes and if they teamed up with N.Y. then the rest of the country wouldn't even need to vote. Anyway, I am not going to give you a civics lesson right now. It's something that you will have to research and find out for yourself.

Good luck to you "Charlie"

This country hasn't done anything to another country as of yet. I think that our measured response is a testament to that. -> yeah the 2 bombs on hiroshima / nagasaki showed how measured the response of US really is, its more into showing its might than to just giving enough of what is really required, this time too i guess it will be blind revenge on the minds of US rather than giving a measured response in the real sense.

"When or if the United States does take action against anyone, there will be no remorse for them from me as I have seen that they were not remorseful for us."

If it was bin laden etc then you have seen no remorse from the innocent afghanistan people because they dont even know what happened in america. Im sure if those innocent people DID know what happened at least some of them would be remorseful. Either way, the innocent people of afghanistan do NOT deserve to die for this.

If it was israels secret service, then israel people have shown sorrow.

so either way, your comments are kindof thoughtless.

I am sorry...Pearl Harbor was? That was not done until the end of the war but the war ended at that point. There was no negotiating, there was nothing. The Japanese were required to meet our demands as we said they would be. Remember, we weren't even involved in the war until the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor. Now we defend the Japanese as part of that agreement. We DO NOT legislate or control them.

The ones that I am talking about not being remorseful are the men, women and children I have seen depicted on the television celebrating what happened to the WTC buildings. They were interviewed and even told of how these terrorists would be martyrs' to them. I would say that is not being remorseful. Those people may not have been Afghan's but I never said they were. I was talking in general about any group of people that did "celebrate" the death of over 6000 people after a terrible tragedy. I think terrorism has long outlived it's usefulness (not that it was ever useful) and if a government is supporting the actions that allows innocent people to be killed in such a way as what happened last week, then why shouldn't that government suffer the same fate. If you do not like this country, that is fine with me. I don't care where your allegiance lies unless you are breeding the next terrorist that will kill me or my family the next time.

I believe there is an on going investigation into whether the CNN footage you are talking about was accurate or not. Something about it was inaccurate - it might have even been old footage apparently.

Seems like the american propagander machine is well oiled as usual.

Correction, there is no investigation. It was just a rumour, however for all you americans know, it could be true. If it isnt, maybe the people in question had not got the true story? most people in that part of the world do not have good news services. OR maybe they were told something more appropriate to celebrate (less innocent people involved for example) by someone and they believe the first person that told them and ignored future stories - hmmm there is another country that seems to do that quite often.....

As far as I know religion isnt such a strong part of japanise life though. The fact that "Western ways" conflict with many parts of religion in the middle east makes this a totally different situation.

As for pearl harbour.... well I would think that two cities being nuked resulted in hundreds of thousands (millions even?) more innocent people as casualties than there was at pearl harbour.

Dont let the door hit you in the ass...

I'm sorry - did you learn your history of what happened to Hiroshima from Japanese museums? I think that's fairly much the only place on this planet where they make you think that America, completely out of nowhere, for no reason whatsoever, and without any warnings, just decided to drop a nuke.

If the US attacks Afghanistan guess what most probably will be the outcome by reading this interesting article at http://www.guardian.co.u.../0,4273,4259230,00.html . I am with the people of US, my sympathies are with the families of the victims of the attack. I do denounce terrorism in all forms, but attacking the whole country (afghanistan) due to just a few ppl (taliban & osama bin laden) is'nt justified. Surely most of the ppl there are against the govt (taliban) and they would be happy to overthrow the govt and join forces with the opposition govt (which controls approx 10% of the area) & the outside world to takeover. But I don't think US is really trying to help them do this by bringing so many Fighter jets (above 100) and aircraft carriers. I don't think destroying the country with most of the innocent afghani ppl who have nothing to do with the taliban will help eradicate terrorism in any way. Secondly I'd like the US govt to just give a small thought as to what possibly could be conflicting in its foreign srategies due to which ppl (the hijakers specifically) are ready to end their lives to bring to notice a point which they wanna make, surely its not the freedom of ideas or democracy (which the US govt talks about most of the time) which the terrorists are against. Once again I'd like to state that in no way am I supporting what the terrorists did, but for once it makes us think why would they do this for which they are ready to even give their lives for?

Either Bush wins or the terrorists win. Either way morality loses out big time.

I thought you guys might be interested in hearing this

http://www.fusewerx.com/

I’ve written a piece entitled “Nine Eleven”, combined with audio samples from news broadcasts and speeches, in memory of those who perished and those who lost loved ones in the recent terrorist attacks against the United States. Please do what you can to get the word out. I want everyone who has been affected by this tragedy to know that they are not alone in their sorrow; they are not alone in their anguish. God Bless America.

I've made a historical/memorial screen saver, that shows the chronology of the events of September 11, and shows us America is still STRONG!! Features 85 pictures and music from the armed forces andother sources.

http://www.graphicsblandishment.com

GOD BLESS AMERICA

Chris

Hmm... why do americans brag about themselves all the time? Just listen to Bush. "The light will keep on shining, nothing can destroy our great nation". Hellooooo... there is a world outside the US!!!!

I think he's right, Guys nothing happens for nothing. It's a sad thing that happened. But you guys had to expect it. When you sell your old weaponds to these people, you force your way of life to other nations. We all knew that one day this was going to happend. Let's just hope, they don't do this again. I think/hope the americains got their lesson this time.

America very clearly hasnt learnt jack s***e from this.

I am responding just once and will not be back to even read any further of what appears to be some form of spin doctoring. Bottom line what you or I might think is right in this conversation is rubbish as you put it. What is in fact right concerns the world as a whole . The argument in question is over the fact that the terrorist do not like christianity of any type and are not really just calling Jihad against only Americans. In fact they have called it against numerous other countries already. Old News. Right now meaning presently they are calling it only with america because they simply have written too many checks their asses cannot cash. In the end if you have something they want or if you threaten to change their way of life which is designed for them whether you were soliciting or not , then you will be targeted. Sounds alot like Clockwork orange doesn't it? I suggest you calm down and try to use a little more prundence yourself. I have many friends abroad some of which are muslim and it doesnt matter what your religion is . There are people with temper problems everywhere just like there are people who would be bullies to others everywhere. Make no mistake that we as americans are taking all people's situations everywhere into account. Otherwise all their bases in at least the talibans area would belong to Us already. I have even thought on occasion that since the bottom line here is that money is motivating all this and the wanting of more except in Bin ladens thoughts "He wants Power and Control" , That there could be a solution by introducing venues of different things that draw money and help each countries economy without the need for them to strike a war against the USA. Yes we didnt declare war as you said up the board and also the rest of the world did know and the Afgani's would have posted something in the way of regret if they had something to post or if they were not in fear of further rape of their country as a reprisal or imprisonment by the taliban for speaking out for what they knew was right.
example: the world knows>
http://stonekitty.net/wtc/thankyou/
I am also quite sure that the rest of the esteemed Islamic world has realized that Osama's move was to get more of that power/control he seeks by dragging them into a war that they did not in fact want. They are seeking a way out right now in truth and with wisdom which is recognized by most people and they seek a dignified way to do it.
If Osama had been born here , he would have corrupted himself long ago and be nothing more than a drunk living by a dumpster somehwere broke from gambling. That opputunity exists all over the world and is in fact a descision and responsibilty from freedom that is either taken by someone who thinks he is created superior to others and falls victim or simply is denied by the prudent who ends up with the headaches of trying to do the right thing and sleeps at night because he knew he did his best for all . No one wants to change anyone elses culture unless that other culture was not really read as it was written and had been perverted into something ugly by the ignorant. The Taliban were right at the doorway of being accepted and Osama could not afford that. You dont think for a minute that all of the money he invested was for the people do you. It was simply so that he could use them to get all of it under his control. Kind of an Islamic Charles Manson if you will. The only problem here is that in their culture it was easier for him to devise it. I am on to other things now and I hope that I have helped you as well. sincerely, James

This guy speaks a lot of sense. The only part im not so sure about is bin ladens involvement in the talliban, you make it sound like he doesnt agree with them and he would be more corrupt if he had more freedom where as it MIGHT be that he has a lot more influence over them than that.

Ok yeah I cam back once to check : ) I owed you that because it was respectful and I have many English friends.
Make no mistake on my point of view which might be yours as well. He has a different agenda. We all kind of see that there is a hint of that same wisdom in the way its being handled at the taliban end. I just hope that they do not allow what they consider to be an obligation from his monetary support , to affect them . Also I believe fear of his followers is hampering their descisions. I read some thoughts of an Afgani here in the states who is close to home via phone and had been for about 20 years following the goings on. He basically pled with the American side making us aware of the suffering his people had endured by the Taliban and begged that we do not take it out on his people. I think all americans and all people for that matter agree that 2 wrongs never make it right and our government system has some age and wisdom although there have been quite a bit of strong words. There are no wishes to stop anything other than terrorism no matter who it is. People have the right to lead any life they choose as long as it hurts no others and we would be hipocrits if we proceeded any other path. I too hope that and am confident that they will keep that thought through this. Hopefully the policing being done here along with freezing assets of these people who would do harm along with anything that doesnt put innocence in harms way will suffice. I am a bail agent in the USA and over the years I developed other ways that were far more effective than busting down a door to apprehend a convict and safer for all.
An old addage from star trek and James T. Kirk which I will explain after I quote him. He said if they act like children I suggest that we treat them that way . It was in a fatherly sort of light that he said and not without compassion or sympathy for ignorance. The whole world is trying to give the eastern Islamic world the chance to show that it does recognize this ignorance although it is kind of fiendish
and certainly not childlike in its totality but rather almost chess like. He might get pressured and speak out to show them his true goals which I do very well suspect include controlling all the cookies at his end. He almost succeeded but he under estimated the west by thinking that we were ignorant souls who were driven like cattle or something simply with emotion. God created all men equal but the ones who would do bad out of sins such as thinking they were superior to anyone around them , he left the mistakes. Soon enough Osama or anyone else that would harm others for greed or power or even money will always fall from grace and be punished. The rest of us take no responsibility for what he did and since I believe that all people everywhere make up the whole of god , no matter where the bad will go , they will be watched by someone good who will at the right time make the descision to stop them . This usually happens with just a very few words. All souls possess a concience and that concience will be the judge and jury in the end. Look at hitler for example. How did he aquire that disease that drove him mad thus causing him to make irrational moves and well ending his own life?
Anyway the world is quite safe these days with many walks of wisdom and the greatest thing in our time is that we are all communicating more and more and finding out that we laugh at the same jokes even if it is in different languages and we have alot in common. Geographically maybe not but here in the heart and mind we are all One. No more rambling but rather my thoughts so that you would know reguardless of hustle and bustle of everyday life in the city that all these people are tied together by common decency reguardless of what they might say if their morning isnt stellar : ) All we need is more faith and yes with one guy in charge and alot of advisors I too lose my breath over it sometimes and we certainly are not out of the woods yet but as bad as it looks there is some good shining through. Good night my friend and keep the hope because without expression of views to keep the idea of stupidity in check , it could surface and be another big mistake in history . sincerely James

The World will never be safe and that is a fact as long as
humanity exists.
Us the Citizens of the world should not be constantly criticizing what every body else around us does but instead we should try to shape the world to exist as one. There should be subjects that the UN
should agree upon like a standardized education across the world and
certain rules for e.g no childlabour, terrorism, etc...

Because if we allow our differences to seperate us any further there will be a conflict between the governments which will result in utter destruction of this planet and who is going to pay for all of this?
We are!

I mean if we have to be allies with a country might as well share
some of the regulations
and for the world to work as a whole, all the countries have to share
regulations
other wise different ways of understanding this life will bring consequencial conflict e.g Sept /11 /01