Toshiba (??) is screwed!

At just after 3:00 am Eastern Time, Toshiba officially pulled the plug on its efforts to promote and manufacture HD DVD home theater consoles and disc drives, announcing it will shut down production by the end of March.

They just denied the denial... so it's officially OVER!

I leave you all with this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywWfmRdOmJ0

The war is over!!!! The superior format has finally won and emerged victorious

its over, now we only have vista to flame about.

LOL funny

http://www.abc.net.au/ne...7196.htm?section=justin

Japanese electronics giant Toshiba has admitted it has lost the battle to shape the next generation of DVD technology.

The company says it is abandoning its high-definition format, HD DVD, handing control of the market over to the rival Sony model, Blu-Ray.

The announcement ends years of fierce competition between the two companies.

Sony was able to gain the upper hand in the DVD battle by winning the support of Hollywood studios and major retailers.

The lies that Toshiba told have come out.. Anyone under the illusion that there were over a million HD DVD players out there? Well you were lied to..

http://www.engadget.com/...ess-conference-in-tokyo/

Q: How many HD DVD players and recorders, exactly, did you sell?
A: 600,000 players in the US -- 300,000 of which were Xbox 360 HD DVD drives. 100,000 units were sold in Europe. And about 10,000 players and 20,000 recorders in Japan. So about 730,000 units worldwide.

A MERE 300,000 STANDALONE PLAYERS IN THE US. LOL..

With all the twisting of numbers people have been doing during this war I dont think toshiba themselves actually released any statement on achieving one million sales?
Correct me if I am wrong but it was media sites touting what various members of the hd-dvd group said.
It was only some toshiba marketing 'genuis' who said there was one million in the market I.E not sold.

n/a

Tosihba have officialy thrown in the towel.

http://www.toshiba.co.jp...ress/2008_02/pr1903.htm

TOKYO--Toshiba Corporation today announced that it has undertaken a thorough review of its overall strategy for HD DVD and has decided it will no longer develop, manufacture and market HD DVD players and recorders. This decision has been made following recent major changes in the market. Toshiba will continue, however, to provide full product support and after-sales service for all owners of Toshiba HD DVD products.

By ceasing production of HD DVD hardware, this releases Paramount and Universal from their contracts, meaning both companies are free to produce Blu-ray if they wish.

Is this the end of stupidity finally?

Give him time...I'm sure that he has a few more miles on that...

On topic however, such is life.

As I posted further down this page, less than 2% of all movie sales in the US, last year, involved hd media. Quite a war they've won.

Finally, maybe you tards will go home now.

I dont care which way this goes HD DVD or BLUE-RAY. We need to sweep it under the rug and move on with one standerd HD format. So everyone can head in one direction, movie studios and consumers alike. Just give us one standard format!!!!!

Its not over till toshiba throws in the towel!
www.talkprice.net

throw in the towel Toshiba!...

if anyone is holding back the HD Media market right now its Toshiba...plain and simple...lets move on...I welcome Toshiba BD players...they will surely be top quality

I for once would haft to agree. Toshiba needs to just throw in the towel and move on at this point. No need in sinking more money in a ship that is already sank down to the sails. They are likely holding on to try and get rid of their stock which you can't really blame them. They can't really afford any more losses right now.

Although I still would prefer HD-DVD, I am still glad the war is finally coming to a close so I can get everything on 1 player. I just wish they would hurry up and get the Blu-Ray burner prices down. That will be my next investment.

"throw in the towel Toshiba!..."

Alright, so Toshiba throws in the towel. Then what? We're stuck with BD players in the range of $399-$1299 even if we include the PS3. Who's going to buy a $399 game console to play their movies? Not to mention BD is still an incomplete spec. There are no profile 2.0 players on the market right now. How is this a good thing?

Toshiba giving up would be one step forward and two steps back, as the saying goes.

Yeah cos it's going to stay at that price for years now, eh? Nope, obviously not.

*rolls eyes*

http://www.nikkei.co.jp/...9AT1D180DU18022008.html

here's the link.
Nikkei's probably one of the most trusted business news in Japan.
Go find any kind of translator to translate it.

HD DVD is gone.

They just can't really deny it from a stock point of view.

Edit: for those who's lazy to read, it approximately says HD DVD is going to halt production and development immediately, and sales are going to continue till March.
They're going to announce it 19th afternoon (It's 9:30 AM on 19th I posted this)

But also Toshiba's stocks are rising.
http://headlines.yahoo.c...080218-00000003-tcb-biz
due to people feeling positive about getting out of a non-profitable business.

I'm really looking forward to all the rogue DRM software installing on my machine whenever I pop a Sony Blu-ray disc in my PC...

/sarcasm

Not to defend Blu-Ray, but seriously...

Some software and Vista already have support for the protection on BD media. No need to "install DRM".

In fact, DRM in and of itself isn't a piece of software you'd install. It's a form of protection embedded in some content that requires supported software (and in some cases hardware) to play it back.

Software that supports DRM does just that. It does *not* hinder your ability to play non-DRM content, nor does it apply DRM to your Non-DRM protected content.

I know you were being sarcastic, but there are actually people out there who are stupid enough to fall for all the DRM FUD out there.

HD DVD also has AACS, the same copy protection..

http://en.wikipedia.org/...copy_protection_scandal

Replace CD with Blu-ray.

"In fact, DRM in and of itself isn't a piece of software you'd install."

An application that "supports DRM" includes code that supports DRM that is installed on your machine (this includes Vista). Therefore, DRM get's installed on your machine in one form or another.

I personally don't need any extra DRM entries in my registry. Poorly written uninstallers keeps it pretty full already.

*laughing*

Rootkits are not DRM as Rootkits have nothing to do with rights management. You do know what DRM is, right?

DRM support, for what it is worth, does not affect anything if it is not used. The fact that given player or piece of software supports it really doesn't have any effect on your or your PC if it is not used to play back protected content.

Funny thing is...if it *is* used to play back protected content, the worst it does is...play back your protected content. *gasp* Oh, the horror...

I am beginning to suspect you weren't actually being sarcastic and actually believe the tripe you are posting here, so I will bow out and let you enjoy your "DRM free" world.

Blu ray can lock disks to players can't wait for that to happen.

I honestly don't know what the future holds on copy protection, but for all of us I hope they don't get too crazy with it. The fact that they hold the patents to get too crazy with it worries me, and I am not trying to flame in saying this. The copy protection patents that they hold was the #1 reason I do not like Blu-Ray. I honestly hope that my concerns are proven to be unjustified. This is a time that I DO NOT want to be right.

Post a credible source for that "rumour" please.

How about the actual listing from the US Patent Office?

http://patft.uspto.gov/n...16972&RS=PN/6816972

The short form: Sony filed a patent for a piece of technology that can lock a disc (by way of code on the disc) to a specific player. While this is a means to prevent counterfieting (pirated media will be unable to reproduce this code), it also effectively prevents the loan, and or re-sale of legitimately purchased media.

Seriously, the information on this little gem came to light shortly after the PS3s release.

Granted, the existence of this patent in no way implies that they'd actually use it. Given their past track record with DRM, it's one more reason to not trust Sony.

Wow you heard it here first..

You would have to be a total idiot to think that just because of a patent filing, it automatically means it's going to happen.

Patents are filed, so to prevent others from registering them.

Not only does not NOT apply to movies, it applies to games, it's also never been implemented in hardware.

Anyone find the Sony haters arguments and FUD starting the get really embarrassing???

Benjamin Linus has already said it. Use your sense next time.

Further more, that page doesn't even mention Blu-ray, just "disk" so it could be for anything (maybe even removeable hard disks)! Try again!

The patent was filed before blu ray was a final product. Just because they do not name blu does not exclude it from use.

You have no clue as to what Sony can and can not do. But then again you do work for their PR department so maybe!!!!

Maybe YOU need a lesson on what DRM is. Here I'll make it easy for you and copy/paste from wikipedia.org:

"Digital rights management technologies attempt to control use of digital media by preventing access, copying or conversion by end users to other formats."

Sounds like what SONY's rootkit was trying to prevent huh?

"The fact that given player or piece of software supports it really doesn't have any effect on your or your PC if it is not used to play back protected content."

The assemblies are on my machine which likely includes registry entries for COM components and whatever else they decided to write there.

You have used a PC right?

Apparently you missed the part where I said that just because they have the patent, doesn't mean they'd use it.

You asked for proof of the rumor...I gave it, and well, you and Ben still find a way to whinge about it.

The fact of the matter is: Sony (as well as others in the BDA) have a tool in their arsenal that CAN do this. Whether or not they will, remains to be seen. When you consider the paranoia of the various studios, in regards to piracy and lost revenue from the resale market (the second mostly from game studios), it stands to reason that this is something to (at least) keep your eye on.

How is it FUD when the proof is right there in front of you?

How can you call anyone an idiot, when you fail to grasp even the most basic reading comprehension.

Go back and read the part, in my post, where I say that just because they own the patent, there's nothing to say they will actually use it. Go ahead, we'll wait for ya to catch up...

There's no way that you can honestly believe that IF implemented, it couldn't be adapted to work with any type of disc. Implementation could be as simple as a including it in an update package (kind of like how profile 1.1 was).

How embarassing is it, that even with the actual patent filing in front of you (assuming you even bothered to look at it), you still find a way to spin it off as nothing?

"Not only does not NOT apply to movies, it applies to games, it's also never been implemented in hardware"

Lets have a look
'By executing the game or other program, the CPU 51 controls the graphics system 60, sound system 70, etc., in accordance with input from the user, and controls the display of images and the generation of sound effects and music. '

Other program? Guess what, the VM fits that category very well right now :)

If Toshiba is smart they'll do what LG is doing and make duel format players. This way they can keep HD-DVD alive, people can buy a duel format player for about the same price as a blu-ray. Then when people have to buy another blu-ray player when they can't play their new movies in the next 3-6 months when the series 2 comes out, then Toshiba can go in for the kill.

Maybe Toshiba and MS have something big up their sleeves. I mean $ony screwed them over by playing dirty so maybe they have plans of their own?

Dual formats are disappearing quicker than Xbox marketshare...

Samsung knows whats ahead...

http://www.koreatimes.co.../2008/02/123_19049.html

Nice troll. You really work hard at instigating trouble.

By what, pointing out that Samsung are already cancelling their dual format players...

Probably more related to the unrelated comment regarding the Xbox, of which the link had no direct merit.

Maybe because they suck as a company and could not make them work right. I'm sure that had nothing to do with that.

Troll, troll, troll your boat, gently down the stream...

And Samsung is the one being sued because of their blu-ray drives. You know in all the times I've read your posts you always seem to take the other side. I figure either you do it because you like conflict or you just don't know anything about business.

If Toshiba makes a dual format drive that can compete in price with blu-ray it will sell, and probably better than just a plane blu-ray drive. Right now dual formats aren't being marketed, they just stick them on the shelfs. If people see commercials with dual format drives and they know they can watch all movies from all the studios by buying one and if the drive is competitively prices they will sell. Thats what happened with the dual format standard DVD drives.

Plus I mentioned LG because their a company I trust. Samsung only makes moderately better products than Sony but they share similar business practices.

http://www.youtube.com/w...s_the_Winner_2171.shtml

Roll on the Xbox720, with built in HD-DVD. Word on the street it is rox! (lol)

What next ...

Oh yes some rumours ...

http://www.gamesindustry...tent_page.php?aid=33119

Its from a site Ben uses so it must be true.

10 Years !! for the next PS, oh dear That's going to be some catch up.

Oh dear, another 4 year lifespan before the Xbox life machine gets switched off again. Looks like Xbox are designed for short lifes...

You heard it here folks, Galway tells you that don't buy Xbox, as it's gonna be obsolete in 18 months time...

PS1 9 years
PS2 8 years (to date)
PS3 9 years (claimed)

Xbox 3 years
Xbox 360 4 years

Who cares if the Playstations cost more, they are higher spec'd and last twice as long, and more importantly are reliable.

"more importantly are reliable"

PS2 and PS2 since when?

Since they sold 120 million of them with below industry standard failure rates.

DO YOU REALLY THINK THE PS2 WOULD BE SO PROFITABLE FOR SONY IF THEY HAD SERIOUS ISSUES WITH THEM?

We all know you are an idiot, and can't get it into your thick skull that when you ship 120 million units, there will be failures. I would be suprised if the failure rate of PS2 is above 1%

Can you say class action lawsuit. I'm sure you can't since they would stop paying you for your trolling.

4 year life span maybe??? well for one that would make sense as the rest of us know with tech changing on a daily basis this means CONSOLES HAVE TO EVOLVE.. in 3 years we aren't going to be using the same MS console we will have moved on to next gen while Sony will wait and see what Microsoft comes out with in an attempt to compete. By then i hope Sony is soo broken by Blow ray losses that they will see that their expansion into a further depleting video game market will force their decision to move onto another technology which they will market as a copy or of some other finished format. As for reliability by your sources *no doubt Sony internal sources* your console still lacks exclusive content or the game market that MS and the 360 continues to have.

Not to mention it seems further proof that MS sees an OD market for HD content as they continue to sign deals with studios to provide content online.

I smile every day I see a MS *which I agree is greedy* succeed in another victory over Sony which continues to lie and spread rumors through its representatives as they see no near end to a format war *which they created*. In which said lies to the consumer base and a company continues to provide substandard and unfinished into the market.

"I would be suprised if the failure rate of PS2 is above 1%"

Keep dreaming. They wouldn't have gotten slapped with a class action lawsuit if that was really true. Stop your pointless trolling already and give suicide a try. We'll all be happier that way.

So for easy reference, it's hard to put a life span on a product that is being replaced by it's next system. Saying PS3 will last for 9-10 years, versus saying xbox 360 will be 4 is nearly speculation so those time lines don't matter currently.

Now here is the real info
PS1 1995-2000 5 years
PS2 2000-2005 5 years
PS3 2005-xxxx unknown

Thats a 5 year lifespan, people still play the xbox so technically does that give it a longer lifespan?

Xbox 2002-2005 3 years
X360 2005-xxxx unknown

NES 1985-1991 6 years
SNES 1991-1996 5 years
N64 1996-2001 5 years
GCN 2001-2006 5 years

GB 1989-1996 7 years
GB Pocket 1996-1997 1 year
GB Light 1997-1998 1 Year
GB Color 1998-2001 3 years
GBA 2001-2003 2 years
GB SP 2003-2005 2 years
NDS 2004-xxxx unknown

Now checking all those excluding PSP as it really hasn't had a physical hardware change only appearance. Sony averages 5 years till their next successor, Nintendo the same, Microsoft launched a new system cause everyone else did. I am also not going to list Sega as they have had a great handful of machines along with Nintendo that aren't worth listing.

As you can see the average console is about 5 years. With technology developing so rapidly it's not surprise. Everyone said the original xbox was so powerful yet it was replaced with the 360. In order for Sony to keep with sales they must and will release a new system within plus or minus a year's time over Microsoft and Nintendo. They will do the same thing Microsoft did by releasing a new system.

I was actually having a laugh. Naughty Galway, Shouldn't mock the afflicted.

toshiba and the rest of the remaining HDdvd ppl should just ignore all the rumors and keep on pushing forward. Strange as it is, this "hddvd is dead" stuff sounds more like Apple type propaganda convincing you their stuff "just works" and doesn't crash.
I own neither Bluray or Hddvd but I'm much more inclined to buy hddvd just because i don't want to be a part of that particular crowd.

Any Toshiba people who might be looking at this(toshiba company people) - join up with the Asian alternative hi-def market and reign supreme. Let the overpriced hollywood hi-def format have a victory in the US.

OK, time for a Hollywood style prediction.

By this time tommorrow, it will be official with a Toshiba annoucement. Even if they don't want to call it a day, the shareholders have spoken, the studios have spoken, the retailers have spoken, and the consumers have spoken.

WHEN Toshiba call it quits tommorrow, it also releases Paramount and Universal from their contracts, and meansd Warner does not have to honor it's May deadline for HD DVD releases.

http://online.wsj.com/ar...l?mod=hpp_us_whats_news

And ben has spoke ... Anyone still awake ? Did anyone notice ?

At that point is when the "news" sites should be reporting this. Not a day or 2 before. I think the press should let Toshiba run it's business and not try to pull the rug out from under them by posting rumors as news.

I dunno, I mean I'd rather they just call it quits and start working on bringing affordable blu-ray players to everyone.
Then content providers can focus on bringing content via the internet in partnership with ISP's.
Win for everyone

Is this from the same source that told you the end was within the week and both studios were to sign bloray exclusives by the end of the said week.

BTW that was more than a month ago.. Any idea on a new eta? Or is your propaganda division too busy trying to call someone else who will publish your lies on another website?

I agree completely.

Although, unfortunately it seems that most past rumors regarding this high-definition format war have eventually been proven correct.

I don't take anything for granted or at face value anymore. Hope for the best, prepare for the worst.

Looks like the difference between Hollywood__ and myself, is that my predictions come true..

http://www.toshiba.co.jp...ress/2008_02/pr1903.htm

TOKYO--Toshiba Corporation today announced that it has undertaken a thorough review of its overall strategy for HD DVD and has decided it will no longer develop, manufacture and market HD DVD players and recorders. This decision has been made following recent major changes in the market. Toshiba will continue, however, to provide full product support and after-sales service for all owners of Toshiba HD DVD products.

I like the way so many blu ray shills are so busy attacking the news and the people here. I guess that people forget the fact that Toshiba will be done with HD DVD when they say they are not you or anyone else. I hope Toshiba holds out a little longer knowing that the delay is just pissing you off.

I like how HD DVD supporters like you cling on to the belief that HD DVD is still relevant. Blu-ray has already moved on after establishing itself as the standard High Definition media. Move on.

It isn't and I have stated that. God you people just won't stop putting words in my mouth. I have stated that its done how much more clear do I need to be. If it makes you happy in your little world then by all means think what you want to think.

It isn't? Only two major (read major, I didn't say they were the only ones) high def media out there... and one has just announced that the main backer is pulling out.

You can keep believing the opposite, but some of us here will just get on with our lives.

Ok, once again let me repeat what I have been saying for days if not weeks. I admit that HD DVD is a dead format and really could careless. I already had both formats. Maybe you trolls have missed the part that I do have a PS3. I just preferred HD. I guess since I don't worship bluray like a religion the way you people do I am wrong. For God sake you people need to read what is saif rather then hear what you want to hear. You can say what you want but you know what the sun keeps coming up and that is all that matters. I could really careless about which format wins or won in the end.

You can keep believing the opposite which is a complete load of s***. I know who won and I have seen it coming. I didn't wet my pants and stand on the roof like you people. It is after all just a format. There are much more important things in my life than HD or Blu.

Am I bitter, not a chance. Early adopting is a risk. In the end the HD player will sit next to my laser disk player and all will be good.

Walmart disagrees. Sorry Toshiba, but it's over.

Walmarts not important anymore it seems. It was only important when them cheap Chinese players were on their way...

Walmart really is not that important at least by me. They carry maybe 15 titles out of the how many hundreds of releases?

You really like that line don't you? Some day you will give it rest.

Let's not forget the blu-ray supporters' opinion of Walmart, when they were selling the HD-A2 for $99.

Honestly, though, their selection of movies (in all formats) is pretty paltry in their brick and mortar stores.

I guess all the trailer park trash will start buying blu ray. Is that not what they have been calling Walmart shoppers?

If Toshiba can make money on $99 HD-DVD players (as the pro-HD-DVD camp is always saying they are not selling below cost), are they not in the best position then to make the cheapest Blu-ray drive and be a leader in that area?

The issue really is with media companies, hardware companies and software companies all being the same entity... and the simple economics of 'who can make it cheapest' is replaced by selling hardware at reduced prices and making it up on licensing to studios. Esp when SOME studios are in fact yourself...

Toshiba are losing hundreds of dollars on every $99 HD DVD player sold. Anyone that thinks otherwise is an idiot. There is very little component-wise that seperates HD DVD and Blu-ray players.

The fact Toshiba's share price rocketed on rumours of them ditching HD DVD, shows what their investors are thinking...

"There is very little component-wise that seperates HD DVD and Blu-ray players."

Yea, its the features that are somewhat lacking.

That's not true at all.

The numerical aperture of the Blu-ray disc is vastly different than that of HD DVD, which is far more similar to DVD. That means the disc content is closer to the surface, which is why Blu-ray discs require the special coating.

It also means the laser in the player must also be far more accurate and the margin for error is much slimmer. HD DVD is more similar to DVD in this regard, which makes manufacturing the players cheaper.

Blu-ray drives inherently are more expensive to produce because of the requirements of the laser to read data on the disc. The numerical aperture of Blu-ray discs is much higher, which is how they can store more data. It also means the laser must be more accurate and less prone to error, which makes the whole setup more expensive.

So even if Toshiba started producing Blu-ray players, it could not make them as cheaply as HD DVD, which is more similar to DVD in this regard.

More information is available here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Numerical_aperture

Haven't these products both reached the point where the laser is relatively cheap? Even if the Blu-ray costs twice as much, i can't imagine these arts are more than $10-$20 right now to start with...

You heard it here first. HD DVD is less accurate.. LOL.

No wonder it failed.

The appature size has very little bearing on the cost. The bulk of the cost is decoding hardware. Most HD DVD players use PC based chipsets and Pentum 4 processors. Only very recent ones actually had dedicated chipsets, which where still very costly.

There is a iSupply breakdown of, I think, the HD-A3, and it came to over $300.

Indeed, the lower disc space, the lower bandwidth, the crappy iHD scripting, the SD PiP..

The less accurate one would be you.

The appature size has very little bearing on the cost

I'm guessing you don't play with lasers very much, do you?

For God sake knock it off already.

Disk space is such a load of crap and everyone knows it. I guess they need all that disk space for the audio in 15 different languages.

SD Pip and all the other stuff who really cares. How is the PIP working on those profile 1 units? Oh yeah they needed that extra disk space so that could put the movie on the disk twice to have Pip. We could go back an forth all day. The war is winding down can not just grow up and move on. We all know that HD DVD is about dead but oh no you have keep spilling your vial mine is better than yours crap. What are going to do when HD is no longer in the news? I know you bring it up over and over like you always do. Get a life Dave.

See it works both ways.

iSuppli didn't do a breakdown of the HD-A3, only the first-gen HD-A1 model, which really was a computer.

iSuppli also priced the PS3 at over $800. Also note that in the PS3 break-down, the Blu-ray drive was $125 on its own: http://www.isuppli.com/news/default.asp?id=6919

Toshiba is obviously taking a loss, but so is Sony. Still, the question was whether Toshiba can make the players as cheaply and the answer is no :)

Okay...

The laser pens you buy at stores? Totally different animals than those in HD/BLu-Ray players. Both in tech, design, and function. The pens are not held to any standard other than not burning holes in things and not interfering with other devices. The lasers in Blu and HD are held to *very* strict guidelines, must be *very* precise, and are heavily regulated.

Not cheap to produce except in *massive* quantities, the likes of which we have not seen in the HD market to date.

"...the lower disc space, the lower bandwidth, the crappy iHD scripting..."

And yet, with these 'limitations', HD DVD has given a solid HD movie experience (as well as one that's more feature complete).

"...the SD PiP.."

Sorry DJ Ben, but nobody...not even you...is going to be looking for the detail provided by the higher resolutions in the PiP window. The only way that this is a benefit, is if you can switch the windows, at any time. I've seen speculatory forum posts about this happening, but nothing official, yet...

When when a Blu-ray laser costs $18, how much cheaper is a HD DVD one? Even if it's $10, that means the rest of the components are over $290.

I'm guessing you don't play with common sense much...

As PC_Tool noted below, the blue-diode lasers used in these HD players are still very expensive and their availability is limited. Just the optical disc reader in the PS3 alone cost Sony $125 to manufacture, according to iSuppli.

But you are correct that over time, as production increases, prices will fall. But right now the laser is most likely the most expensive part of any HD player.

I think you mean adequete HD movie experience.

What you miss of course, having never owned a Blu-ray player, is what could be..

Well the PiP on Blu-ray allows you to swap PiP and main feature, so having both streams 1080p means no loss of quality. Even if HD DVD could swap streams, the PiP would be SD and the PiP HD..

Try over $100 for the laser :) That's why Sony recently announced plans to make a new one with LED manufacturer Nichia.

iSupply PS3 breakdown was in November 2006. The latest price breakdown showed the PS3 at $400. Nice of you to omit that.

You also fail to mention how that Sony can do loss leaders, as it's multiple revenues to win it back, PS3 games (media and downloads), Blu-ray movies, DVD movies, music downloads and soforth. Every addition PS3 owners will be particpating in at least some of those.

What has Toshiba got?

No, I mean solid movie experience...just like I said.

And 'oops'....sorry, but I own (and have used) both formats (my blu-ray player is your blessed PS3). My preference is based on this fact.

Considering that each profile update/upgrade is giving BR users functionality that HD DVD has had, from the start, I'm not missing 'what could be...'

When blu-ray actually meets its potential, I'll start buying that formats discs again.

Bzzt wrong...

http://www.digitimes.com/news/a20070507PD200.html

$125 back in 2006, with $100 price reduction May 07.

Another laser price drop is due soon..

http://www.gamesindustry...tent_page.php?aid=32468

Do you make your news up?

Why not CNN does.

...I bet you still think aperture size has little to do with the cost. (You can't even *spell* aperture correctly)

Get back to me when you're responding to what I've actually said, not what you've imagined.\

Thanks.

"No wonder it failed."

Bluray did not win based on its strength as a superior format, and HD DVD did not fail as a format. I'm sure that you think that the studios and stores just loved Bluray so much that they decided to ignore all of the HD DVD owners out there. It is more likely that they are getting advertising kick backs and other incentives to go exclusive.

"Bluray did not win based on its strength as a superior format,"

At least people are now admiting Blu-ray is superior... That's a start I suppose.

Way to ignore the point Ben...

To say your not a fan boy, you sure like to post fan boy news about all things sony. Or are you a blogger, paid to come out with all this crap.

Your information though is flawed. Both say COULD, and yet no mention of an actual reduction of cost is made. Yet in the manner you sell it implies it is actually proving your main argument.

You claim not to be a fan boy, yet it so desperately appears to be true. You might want to get your researchers to do some actual real evidence next time.

We all know there is only one company that employs viral marketing companies, and bribes bloggers with laptops to say nice things about Vista..

Yes the cost reduction is implied, if it makes you feel better.. However, with this news, and the latest price breakdown showing the PS3 costs $400 to make, it has very strong creedance.

"We all know there is only one company that employs viral marketing companies, and bribes bloggers with laptops to say nice things"

I know of two, Microsoft and sony.

"We all know there is only one company that employs viral marketing companies, and bribes bloggers with laptops to say nice things about Vista.."

Just like we know that there is only one company who would employ a viral marketing company, to push the PSP? Or doesn't "All I Want For Xmas Is A PSP" sound familiar to you?

"You also fail to mention how that Sony can do loss leaders, as it's multiple revenues to win it back, PS3 games (media and downloads), Blu-ray movies, DVD movies, music downloads and soforth."

Wait, there are PS3 games that are good and selling well? Did hell freeze over? Media and downloads? Riiight, what media exactly? If you think Sony is making much money on anything downloadable for the PS3, you're sadly mistaken. Blu-ray movies you say? What's the movie attach rate of the "cheapest" BD player (aka. POS3)? Like, 0.1 or something? Hilarious. DVD movies? Music downloads? Now you're just lumping ALL of Sony's business together to make it seem like it's alright for them to be losing BILLIONS on a game console. Yet when people try to do this with Microsoft, you start foaming at the mouth about it. Funny how that works.

"We all know there is only one company that employs viral marketing companies, and bribes bloggers with laptops to say nice things about Vista.."

You're absolutely hilarious, because Sony never bribed anyone, EVER. Damn, what was that website that Sony opened secretly pretending it was an independent company? I can't remember what it was for though. I think it was for promoting the PSP or PS3. Anyway, that was another PR disaster in typical Sony fashion. Boy did Sony have eggs on their face the day someone pulled up the website's registry info and it pointed directly at Sony. Lucky for you I'm too lazy to look up the full story, but I'm sure someone around here knows what I'm talking about.

Is this all you do in your spare time?
Troll forums and do your Microsoft bashing?

Two words about BD: INCOMPLETE SPEC.

BAM! Even now there are no 2.0 players. It only took Sony three tries to try and get it right. HD-DVD got it right the first time. Now we're trading in HD-DVD for BLO-RAY. Most of the features of HD-DVD, two years later, for three times the price. Isn't Sony bribery wonderful? I'm sure if they paid off enough people, they could convince us that lead paint is healthy and we should eat some everyday!

"When blu-ray actually meets its potential, I'll start buying that formats discs again."

Sometime next year.. maybe. I wonder how long before 3.0 looms on the horizon and 2.0 owners get shafted again in predictable Sony fashion. Why screw your customers once or twice, when you can do it three, four, five, etc. times?

http://www.wickedlasers....AR_II_Burner-73-24.html

Thought someone would get a kick out of this. :)

All the troll tards will respond back with Drakes, Ratchet and Clank an other new games that in reality have sucked as far as sales go. If the games are so good why are they not selling?

I look forward to HD DVD continuing to confound the critics.

Sell it as DVD+; a high quality upscaling DVD player that happens to do HD DVD.

Keep selling the HD DVD burners & all the existing media.
See what happens.

Give us a little shrink program and let us burn all the 450+ Blu-ray moves ripped on the net.

F*ck 'em, give the b@stards nothing.

It's all BS anyways.
Blu-ray will never replace SD DVD, they're just driving it up a little niche and will shaft their captive audience merrily.

HD TV & downloads are the future.

Blu-ray will never get a range of finished final spec goods out at genuine mass-market prices in time - and they themselves have repeatedly said they don't want cheap pricing.

Too little too late.

The upshot of this little war was both formats lost.

Way to go PS3 w@nkers.

sour grapes
pl.n.
Denial of the desirability of something after one has found out that it cannot be reached or acquired.

How did this one get a negative score, and it's parent comment didn't?

I think you guys moderated the wrong post.

Heh...

Did the bias go over your head? OP is pro-HD, respondent is not. Respondent got modded down.

Hmmm....

I've defended Nate in the past against calls of bias, but that moderation leaves me very suspect, indeed.

Did someone get upset at HD DVD being canned? I think they are!

Silly Hocuspokus!

YOu can tell from the title, it's a "Nate HD DVD Fanboy Mook" article...

Toshiba are on the very edge of closing HD DVD, just look at the wording...

"The media reported that Toshiba will discontinue its HD DVD business. Toshiba has not made any announcement concerning this. Although Toshiba is currently assessing its business strategies, no decision has been made at this moment,"

NOT MADE ANY ANNOUNCEMENT...

surely if they were carring on, that should read "WE WILL CONTINUE HD DVD PRODUCTION"...

The end is coming, this time tommorow, Nate and Hokuspokus will be reading the news we all know is coming...

There is a big difference between on the edge and actually do something. Shouldn't the news wait until a decision is actually made.

Careful Ben, you'll have your comment deleted.

The funny part was when Nate called HomeMediaMagazine.com "an unabashedly pro-Blu-ray outlet." Because it had editorials that HDDVD should call it quits. The only site not calling for HDDVD to quit is BETANEWS.

Then by that respect, BETANEWS is unabashedly pro-hddvd.

Not in todays day and age. Do you think CNN and FOX news call elections based on actual vote counts? Nope, exit polls.

And judging by the exits polls of Best Buy, Netflix, and Walmart, CNN is projecting that Bluray has won the high def war.

Isn't that sad though.

For what it is worth CNN blows.

yea it is. But I don't think calling this war over or that toshiba is about to pull the plug is that far fetched.

Isn't it sad when you have to come out and deny rumors that the media is reporting. I remember when newspapers printed the news as in what happened today and left out all the rumors and speculation.

Toshiba is anti-consumer.

THIS denial is what's hurting consumers. Pretending that they still have a chance and tricking people into buying a dead product is what will p1ss people off. Someone had a good idea. they still have inventory, well then sell it as a good upconverter in the dvd section for $99 and begin to manufacture blu.

I can't believe you people aren't more mad about this.

"THIS denial is what's hurting consumers. Pretending that they still have a chance and tricking people into buying a dead product is what will p1ss people off."

Too true, they doing exactly what sony did with beta, and look how popular they are.

"I can't believe you people aren't more mad about this."

Easy, because HD-DVD has the better features, is cheaper, and is not backed by sony! Not allowing consumers to choose is a bind, but we are dealing with sony here. How to they phrase it? What they dont know about wont hurt them.

what are you talking about. it has been reported TIME AND TIME again that the consumers DONT want hddvd. consumers want BLU.

Best buy knows what consumers want, so does Warner, walmart, netflix, and toshiba. consumers chose BLU all year last year when this was still a "Stalemate".

not once since this war was started have consumers wanted HDDVD... not once.

Tell me again how I had a choice in this. If I wanted Cars I had to get Blu-Ray. If I wanted Rush Hour 3 I had to get Blu-Ray. If I wanted Transformers I had to get HDDVD. I'm not seeing choice here. Consumers had no choice. Movie studios did.

Yeah, this was when the studios started to go exclusive on one format, AFTER they had been selling plenty various films on BOTH formats. Why do you think they switched in the first place? Cos either one format wasn't selling, or they were making more money on one of the formats (taking into account development and manufacturer costs).

Most studios went Blu-ray exclusive, cos HD DVD disc sales were less than Blu-ray. Paramount and Universal went HD DVD cos they felt manufacturing costs was cheaper in the long run.

So yes, the consumer DID choose.

Actually, Fox, Disney, Lionsgate and Sony never released any movies in HD DVD. And Warner Bros. charged more for its Combo HD DVD movies than it did for its Blu-ray-only movies.

That's not choice.

Yeah, you're right. But then again, did you really think Sony would release in HD DVD to make it easy for them? Come on, this is businesses.

Fox and Disney had their own reasons, but at the end of the day, the majority of the studios were supporting both in the early days. Now seeing as more of those ones have switched to Blu-ray (and the fact that Blu-ray disc sales have been much higher than HD DVD), we can reasonably conclude that the consumer did have a large hand in it.

Exactly TESTMAN.

I hear what everyone is saying, I wish there was never a war too, but there was and it was up to the consumer to chose. When warner was selling for both blu and hddvd, consumers chose blu twice as much.

Regardless of the issue of who chose to end this war, its over whether toshiba or betanews says it is.

Paramount and Dreamworks went from supporting both to supporting HD DVD only.

Warner Bros. and HBO/New Line went from supporting both to supporting Blu-ray only.

The majority really weren't supporting both from the start and the majority didn't switch to Blu-ray. One big studio and one small studio switched to each format. But Sony had more support from the beginning, with Sony Pictures (of course), Fox, Disney and Lionsgate, which meant losing Warner Bros. was a huge blow to HD DVD because it is such a large studio.

Consumers never really had a choice here...

You mean Blu had more support from the beginning.

By your theory, then HDDVD was doomed from the beginning. Blu had more support and was naturally going to win because of it.

Nate, do you really think it's not over?

So if Blu-ray had more support from the beginning (as you say), that's a BAD thing? If the majority of films are going to be on one format, you'd pick the minority?

Until Warner Bros. stops making HD DVD movies in June, the actual number of available titles is about equal in each format. In fact, in the beginning there were more titles in HD DVD format.

That's why the Warner Bros. decision has sparked Toshiba to evaluate its future plans, because now it will be about a 70/30 split in terms of available titles. It has also hurt current sales.

But the point that was made by lvthunder above is that consumers never really had a choice here, which is accurate.

??? You're going back and forth now.

If the number of movies for both were "about equal", then how was this not a choice by consumers. If it was an even playing ground from the beginning, it was up to the consumer to chose blue or hddvd. And they did, 2-1 all last year.

NO! Consumers DON'T want Blu! They were tricked, conned and SCAMMED into buying Blu by companies like Sony that made a concious decision to knowingly and willingly withold material information about the players: the fact that they couldn't be upgraded from one BD profile to another in the future.

This is called FRAUD. I don't think too many consumers want to be defrauded, do you?

By testman

posted Feb 18, 2008 - 12:28 PM

Yeah, you're right. But then again, did you really think Sony would release in HD DVD to make it easy for them? Come on, this is businesses.


...and business isn't about choice.

That is complete BS. Disney and Sony never sold a HDDVD disk in the US. Just as Universal never sold a Blu-Ray disk.

Not all movies are made equal. You can't compare them since the movies are different titles. You have to look at both sides and say which side has more movies that I will enjoy.

The consumer didn't have any hand in it at all. All the consumer wants is to buy their favorite movies. If they are only on Blu-Ray well then they buy Blu-Ray. If they were only on HDDVD they would buy that. That's why people went neutral so they could pick from both sides.

Let these conspiracy theories go man.

"NO! Consumers DON'T want Blu!"

Is that why Blu-ray has 11 million players and HD DVD has only a million?

Is that why Blu-ray outsold HD DVD every single week last year?

Is that why Blu-ray has a 9:1 advantage in Japan, a 5:1 advantage in Europe, and a 3:1 advantage in US?

WAKE UP, WHILST YOU OBVIOUSLY HAVE NOT, ALMOST ALL OTHER CONSUMERS HAVE CHOSEN BLU

...And your tipical BS comparisons from little Benny.

THE CONSUMER HAD LITTLE CHOICE IN IT.

If you consider less than 1 percent of the population equals what the consumers want that your a fool.

While marketing and use of the PS3 was brilliant, don't make yourself look stupd by implying that the consumer had any real choice in that at all.

If anything, they chose convenience (already owned a PS3) over anything else (meaning quality, cost, format differences never even entered into it).

Don't fool yourself, or at least, stop trying to fool others. The choice, if any, was one of convenience, not of which was the better format.

Blu had less consumer support and more studio support. If Toshiba discontinues HD-DVD and consumers can no longer buy high definition movies (since the majority only own an HD-DVD player) then people will simply go back to regular DVD's. Consumers aren't going to spend another $300 or $400 on a Blu-Ray player to replace their HD-DVD player.

The number of available titles doesn't necessarily mean sales will be equal. In addition, disc sales were so low that consumers never had a chance to choose. We're talking the difference between 100,000 and 75,000 vs. tens and hundreds of millions of DVDs being sold.

If most movies were in both formats from the beginning, consumers would have been able to choose. Unfortunately, as PC Tool pointed out, this is business, and consumers often don't get that chance. The problem is they took too long to decide for the consumer, so now the consumer is losing out. If they forced one format on the consumer from the beginning, it would have been different, clearly. But neither Sony nor Toshiba would give in to a compromise.

He's not going back and forth at all. You misunderstood his comment.

The number of MOVIES available was about equal; the number of supporting studios has not been. And that's the sticking point.

Because of the number of exclusive titles in each format, the hd media consumer really only had 2 ways to go:
a- pick a side, while only buying the other format's exclusives on standard DVD. OR...
b- buy into both formats.

The only way to accurately say that the consumer picked a format, would be if the studios had given equal support to both formats, and counted sales figures for each. The choice would have been made based on the tech (who had the better picture, who offered the best feature set, who offered the best value for the price, etc...).

Well duh.

If you can get a Blu-ray player for $400 less than any other high-definition format player (at the time the PS3 was released), then why wouldn't you buy it? Oh yeah, and it also happens to play games. =p

That was a brilliant move by Sony.

I agree, to a point.

A lot of people (those who bought into HD DVD based on price), will probably be willing to sit this one out. They're going to feel burned, and rather than jump back into the fray, will stick with the movie format that they know (at least until blu-ray proves itself to the mass market).

It's going to take a lot of work, on the part of the BDA, to regain this type of consumer's trust. Only time will tell if they're able to do it.

Almost all other consumers have. Really, how is just about everybody in my office has never heard of either format! So the almost is more like 3 or 4% of the market. You fail to understand that blu ray may have won this battle but far from winning the war. Almost all other consumers will not interested in buy a device that plays movies that costs $300 and the movies $30. The war could and most likely still can be lost.

So in saying that congrats to blu for a victory in the battle but not the war. Who knows blu could turn out to be just like UMD, an over priced propriety format. Then again it could also win over DVD. But according to you it is all but a done deal. How naive.

So far the games part is seriously lacking, good thing for the movie part.

I wonder now that HD is out of the picture if blu will start locking disks.

Who knows? I'd have to say not, though, considering that would only further alienate the people that they're trying to convince to invest/re-invest.

On both sides, so lets stop pretending that because Blu-ray seem to now be the HD standard, they must have done something. Only people who are embarrassed at backing the wrong horse say that. Both sides, in the business sense, have been as bad as each other. Toshiba simply were the losers this time.

Funny how you and a few other HD DVD supporters are bleating on about choice NOW. When HD DVD were doing well, you weren't saying anything about consumers not having choices then, were you?

Sorry, what?

You argued that this was the consumer's choice, folks argue that assertion, you back yourself into a corner....

...and now we should just agree that they were both behaving badly? (A totally different statement than the discussion revolved around)

Nice tactic. Some of us happen to be smarter than rocks though.

Only in response to your cries of how this was decided by the consumer...

It's funny. You guys all claim the choice was made by us (The consumer), and then blame us for making that kind of statement when we call you on it.

Man, you should run for the Democratic nomination.

Ok, now just stop and think for a second here. Do you honestly believe that if the Blu-Ray camp had been UPFRONT and FORTHRIGHT about the fact that the stand alone Blu-Ray players could not be upgraded from one BD Profile version to another that ANY of those "early adopters" would have actually bought their Blu-Ray players? Whould you have? I think not.

I know what I am talking about here because I actually sold the Blu-ray players in a major retail store for MONTHS. Not one single manufacturer of the stand alone Blu-ray players ever made ANY effort to disclose that their players would not be upgradeable to the new BD Profiles. Not to the sales reps working in the field and certainly not to the consumers. Why? Because they knew full well that if they disclosed that one tiny little tid bit of information, NO ONE would buy their players! Had they been HONEST and UPFRONT with consumers from the very start, their format would have been dead in the water from DAY ONE!

These companies knowingly and intentionally misled the public by withholding MATERIAL facts that would have substantially factored into the consumers buying decision - and greatly impacted it. Last time I checked, this type of thing was still called FRAUD! Companies get SUED for that type of behavior and their reputations get RUINED for it every single day.

Now, I challenge you to go back and ask those "11 million consumers" that bought Blu-ray stand alone players if ANY of them were EVER made aware of their player's non-upgradeablity BEFORE they bought them. You know how many were made aware of that fact? Try ZERO.

How many of them do you think would have actually bought their Blu-Ray player had the manufacturers been honest and upfront with them by putting a sticker on the outside of the box letting them know they couldn't be upgraded to the any of the new BD Profiles that would be released in the future? Try ZERO.

Now, here is the real rub: NONE of this was even NECESSARY! If Sony had the ability to make their PS3's Blu-ray player fully upgradeable, then they, and every other Blu-ray manufacturer as well, also had the ability to make their stand alone players upgradeable. They chose not to do that.

So, that poses one all important question: WHY DIDN'T THEY DO IT? Well, the obivious reason is cost of course. And that just boils down to corporate greed really - you guessed it, at the expense of the unsuspecting consumers that were duped into buying a stand alone Blu-Ray player. They had the wool intentionally pulled over their eyes by these big, multi-million dollar companies. Plain and simple.

Now, if this isn't the makings of a massive class action law suit against these manufacturers, then I don't know what is.

You see, this is really an ethical issue here when you boil it down to its component parts. These companies in the Blu-ray camp made a concious decision to mislead and defraud their loyal customers for the simple reason of sheer greed and profit, nothing more.

Now, if you want to sing their praises from the highest rooftops and dance with joy over the fact that "Blu-Ray won the format war!" like a ten year old school girl who just got a new bike, be my guest. However, when corporate greed wins and consumer choice loses through fraud, deception and misrepresentation of material fact, I can assure that I for one, will not celebrate that for one second.

So in short that means when the people who purchased these players from these locations go and purchase new Blorays next year and can't take advantage of the new features they will be pissed off and look at why they listened to the sales people in the first place and should have made more informed decisions. They will look at the market online and see that Blowray isn't the way to go anymore as the new market is On Demand HD and will move onto that format. In hindsight as many consumers do they will look at reasons why in a year their player no longer plays the new videos and will see the problem is a flawed company who time and time again tries and sells its poorly made crap as state of the art etc (10 year life expectancy of the POS3 LOL keep to that Sony the rest of the world will move on) As in my case will vow never to purchase a Sony product in the future thereby reducing its consumer base.

No games... Genius man! Never heard that before. I would post all the games out now and the ones coming, but you'll ignore it or say that those arent your type of games.

Try again when you come up with something new.

Figures you would be a neocon.

Sorry PC_Tool, that reply was weak.

And it looks like CHECKMATE for TESTMAN

Don't bother trying to argue with Benjamin Linus. It's like that old saying: You can't argue with idiots, they'll just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

Don't bother trying to reason with Benjamin Linus, because you can't troll a troll.

You just love that 11 million player tripe don't you?

And exactly how many of those 11 million are actually blu-ray players, not PS3's?

MikeTechno (and countless others here) are right. Consumers don't want blu...or HD DVD for that matter (at least not in any quantity that really matters).

According to sales data from DEG, there was $23.7 billion in DVD spending last year, on the consumers part. Of that, $300 million is attributed to both HD media (both formats) and VHS tapes that are still (somehow) in circulation. For the mathematically challenged, that's less than 2% of total movie sales/rentals (never mind that it includes VHS sales ffs...).

Yep...less than 2% of a $23.7 billion industry. Quite a war they've won...

All the wondeful games that you can't think of matches the actual sales. Ignore it you like but as I recall only one game for the PS3 is in the top ten and that is Call of Duty. If memory servers me right it is number 8 and the 360 version is 4. Funny how the great games like Drake is not even listed. Say what you will people are not buying the games so they must not be that good. That or maybe most of the PS3 sales are for watching movies only. Hum I wonder.

Actually I find it interesting that a real crappy game like Kane and Lynch has sold more than Drakes and that is supposed to be so good. Granted the Call of Duty part is wrong it is not even in the top ten anymore. Devil may cry is in the top ten for the PS3 but that is it. But guess what the 360 has sold more copies.

You can talk about all the great games but you know what look at sales they just are not there.

Dude, you're an idiot. Go away and let the grown-ups chat, will you?

I know you feel the need to defend your pet here, but seriously, your childish antics are doing more damage than good.

lack of sales much like the 360 consol. but hey, at least they did have a shortage...HAHAHAH. Shortage, classic stuff!

With over one million customers and two Hollywood studios still exclusively backing HD DVD, the company would face numerous lawsuits from individuals and companies alike.

Doesn't mean it's not going to die.

I hate to admit it too, I love HD-DVD, but it looks like it is going to lose, not because consumers are choosing blu-ray, but because studios and retailers are.

Too true.

And it not appears they are spreading FUD to achieve this as well.

I think, especially with the recent reports regarding what consumers want, they should market it as a DVD upscaler AND a HD-DVD player. This is what consumers want, having DVD's to play and yet want the benefit of HD.
I dont think the ability to upscale has been pushed enough, and is a market Toshiba have neglected and underestimated.

see above

It's an alternative strategy and something that they are probably now forced to push. But seeing as they invested millions of dollars in helping creating the HD DVD standard, obviously they would want to push that first.

The problem in pushing the "upscaling" feature as the main bit of it is that it's focusing on something that is definitely a minor feature. It's like (not a brilliant analogy but still...) deciding to push the SEGA 32X instead of the SEGA Saturn because the Saturn is not getting the sales you want.