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U.S. Attorney General Wants ISP Customer Data

By Scott M. Fulton, III, BetaNews

September 19, 2006, 4:01 PM

In hearings before the Senate Banking Committee this afternoon, the Associated Press reported, United States Attorney General Alberto Gonzales told committee members he would support a tightening of federal requirements for Internet service providers to hand over information on their customers. Specifically, he is asking senators to extend the law to require ISPs to retain data on their customers, should that data become necessary for use in a federal investigation.

"We have to find a way for Internet service providers to retain information for a period of time so we can go back with a legal process to get them," Gonzales was quoted as telling committee members.

The Attorney General's statement echoes sentiments he expressed last April during a speech to the National Center on Missing and Exploited Children, which would be the agency to which ISPs would report this data.

"The investigation and prosecution of child predators depends critically on the availability of evidence that is often in the hands of Internet service providers," Gonzales said at the time. "This evidence will be available for us to use only if the providers retain the records for a reasonable amount of time. Unfortunately, the failure of some Internet service providers to keep records has hampered our ability to conduct investigations in this area."

"Record retention by Internet service providers consistent with the legitimate privacy rights of Americans, is an issue that must be addressed," Gonzales later added.

Under current U.S. law since January 2002, ISPs that become aware of child pornography transactions taking place over their systems must report having witnessed that transaction, as soon as possible, to the NCMEC, or else face a fine of $50,000. However, the law only states the transaction itself must be reported; what the Attorney General seeks is a clarification, stating ISPs should also turn over the personal records of those involved.

In opening remarks, Gonzales said the additions he's requesting "would strengthen [existing law requiring] Internet Service Providers to report violations of child pornography laws, by increasing the criminal penalties for knowing and willful failure to do so, and also establishing a new civil penalty for negligently failing to do so."

In addition, the Justice Department seeks the government to institute a new system of warning labels, declaring that a Web site may contain sexually explicit material.

The New York Times reported last June that the DOJ would ask that ISPs make available not just personal records, but the Web-surfing histories of customers, in case of a possible federal subpoena.

However, one very large potential legal hurdle facing the DOJ is that the NCMEC, which is the designated recipient of child pornography transaction information under existing federal law, is not a U.S. government agency. According to the Center's own Web site, it is "a private, nonprofit organization to provide services nationwide for families and professionals in the prevention of abducted, endangered, and sexually exploited children." As a result, it would not have subpoena power.

So conceivably, any rewrite to the law might have to change the designated recipient of data from the NCMEC to a federal agency, such as the FBI. That fact may not yet have been made clear in testimony today. Attorney General Gonzales did not mention the NCMEC in his opening statements to the Banking Committee.

In June 2004, the U.S. Supreme Court upheld a lower court ruling overturning an earlier law -- the Child Online Protection Act of 1998 -- on the grounds that it overly restricted the rights of adults who might not be engaged in illegal transactions. However, ironically, language in that earlier law exempted ISPs and telecom carriers from liability or responsibility for transactions made by their customers, even if those transactions fell under the guidelines for child pornography spelled out by U.S. Code.

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By Reap_r

edited Sep 20, 2006 - 12:32 PM

Some excellent comments here. I am glad that there are still some folks that are concerned about the unconstitutional powers that our current government is taking for itself. I am not Bush bashing, nor am I defending him. He has done some good things...and some bad things. Enough bad things that he should be impeached for violating his oath of office to defend the constitution of the United States. Too bad that most of the polititians (both sides of the aisle) are more interested in re-election than in protecting the constitution.

Anytime the government takes upon itself a power not specifically given to it by the constitution, it stands in violation of that constitution. There are provisions for modifying the constitution as needed to keep up with technology and to protect our nation but the bar is high...purposely so. It is the only real bulwark against tyranny before blood needs to be shed.

The bill of rights is just a dummy check to make it easy to tell when the government is in the wrong. It is not really needed at all because any power not granted by the constitution is prohibited. Just because the government is not specifically violating the bill of rights most certainly does not mean that they are still in the right. It simply means that you must look the the rest of the constitution to see if the government is allowed to do what it is doing...

The fallacy when looking at the bill of rights revolves around narrowly interpreting it and thinking that as long as the government does not violate it, it is in the clear...this is wrong thinking and ignores the fact that the constitution uses absolute terms regarding the rights of man. These rights are only infringed upon in specific ways as absolutely necessary to make the country function.

It was understood by the founding fathers that it was risky to limit the goverments power so much. It would hamstring the government in fighting crime and defending the nation...but the alternative was so much worse, that they knowingly limited the governnments power. This my friends is true wisdom.

I think that the liberals have a good track record of interpreting the constitution in such a way as to guarantee the maximum liberty. The conservatives do not, however the conservatives have a good record for enforcing existing law. In this time of conservative rule of both congress and the white house we have seen a great deal of trampling on the constitution.

Good thread so far, except for the fanboys (Bush) or the frothing at the mouth bushaters who really don't know why they hate him.

I am trying to get beyond ideological or policy issues and talk about the constitution. That is why I think the comments in this thread are so good. The child porn issue is just a red-herring. Sure they want to put a stop to it, who doesn't, but they don't need to violate the constitution in order to do their job. Just as we hear all the FUD about terrorism and such as they take away our God-given rights from us, we now hear about this issue. I think they would get far more bang for the buck by instituting the death penalty or life in prison for child-sex offenders. Since 80% of those crimes are re-peat offenders, they would cut it by 4/5 immidiately. I would rather infringe upon the rights of these perverts than infringe on the rights of the law-abiding.

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By Scotch Moose

posted Sep 21, 2006 - 11:32 AM

I watched the web cast of yesterday's senate hearings on child porn. There were many disturbing things said, but what bothered me most was the phrase "not protected speech". The first amendment couldn't be simpler "...shall pass no law ... abridging freedom of speech". All speech is protected, and free, the government has no authority to pass a law that says otherwise. That does not mean you can say anything you want without consequence, if what you say or publish causes harm you are responsible.

Gonzales wants to escape the first amendment restrictions on the government by declaring some speech so horrible that it's mere existence would cause harm. They might be right about that, but unless they repeal the first amendment they have to wait for a real specific harm to be done before even the most honorific speech is part of a criminal act.

No one ever said freedom does not have a price.

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By bourgeoisdude

posted Sep 21, 2006 - 1:09 PM

Well--Congress did not make a law against his speech, did it? It used his speech to provide evidence against him. That is where the problem is. We've been mis-interpreting the Constitution the past 40 years, not the past 200 before that. Sadley, 200 years of legal precedence means dips*** in the US Supreme Court. They aren't the problem, though--we are theproblem for not speaking out against this. It is sad that we have come so low in our country...

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By Grazer

edited Sep 20, 2006 - 12:57 PM

Good thread so far, except for the fanboys (Bush) or the frothing at the mouth bushaters who really don't know why they hate him.

I know why I hate him, I just didn't feel the need to shout at the deaf. Actually, it is not that I hate him, I just feel he is a danger to the country.

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By Reap_r

posted Sep 20, 2006 - 1:21 PM

I understand and agree with that last, but for those that sound quite emotional about it, the irrational nature of their rantings undermine their own position and credibility. When the call him bumbling or stupid, I can safely feel that they are quite gullible and have bought the public persona he has cultivated. I don't go so far as to say he is diabolical, far from it, rather I think he does what he does for good motives. Unfortunately he is misguided and unscrupulous in pursuit of his goals.

At the same time, it does not matter how good the motives are, if you drill a hole in the bottom of your boat it will still sink...at least you will drown with a clear conscience.

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By Scotch Moose

posted Sep 20, 2006 - 10:20 AM

Child Porn – the root password to The Bill of Rights.

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By Reap_r

posted Sep 20, 2006 - 1:23 PM

close, but actually that password is "Terrorism"

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By zridling

posted Sep 20, 2006 - 12:00 AM

Why do conservatives hate America and American values so much? Go back and read the Declaration of Independence. Trust me, this administration does not want you to read that document. It applies to why we have a duty to overthrow the idiots in power.

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By ds0934

edited Sep 20, 2006 - 8:09 AM

Don't even go there. As if party-lines draw logic lines in America (or anywhere else). There are plenty of zealots, morons, crooks, liars and misguided efforts on all sides of the political divide. Ben Franklin had it right: never trust ANYONE that WANTS to run for office. They should be drafted into service. :)

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By iamtux

posted Sep 19, 2006 - 10:54 PM

All this under the guise of protection of the children and "safety". They cannot keep exacting more of these laws and gaining more power under this facade. Why do we continue to let this kind of power mongering go on?

"Record retention by Internet service providers consistent with the legitimate privacy rights of Americans, is an issue that must be addressed," Gonzales later added.

That's a joke.
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
--Ben Franklin

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By ds0934

posted Sep 19, 2006 - 10:21 PM

This whole thing smells of election campaign fodder. They're only trying to pump up their appearance in front of the millions of AOL users that can't spell "infringement" or use a "real" web browser (whatever that is anymore). I thought the NSA was so incredible they could mine that stuff in seconds anyway. Are they admitting they don't have hollywood level capabilities now? Oh boy.

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By drumcat

posted Sep 19, 2006 - 10:09 PM

Actually, would you find it acceptable that AT&T kept your phone records indefinitely...

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By Joe Dirt

posted Sep 19, 2006 - 10:48 PM

Welcome to Google. :)

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By eunichman

posted Sep 19, 2006 - 8:55 PM

Ummm.. no...

If you suspect a person of committing a crime, there are currently sufficient rules regulations and laws in place to secure the data required to take the person to trial and seek a conviction....

We are innoncent until prooven guilty... right?

if i wanted to live in Nazi germany i would build a time machine and go live there... this is the USA, where freedoms are supposedly guaranteed

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By AaronDobbins

posted Sep 20, 2006 - 8:43 AM

Well said! By the way, if you do figure out that time machine business let me know, there are some things I'd like to go back and redo haha.

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By Wyojake

posted Sep 19, 2006 - 8:46 PM

He show know how to get a warrant if it is a valid investigation. Think ISP's should b sued for disclosures that violate agreements between the customer and the ISP. Maybe we should read that fine print more. As for Gonzales - he can stick life where it doesn't shine - in the Bush hell he sold himself too. What thing I find absolutely satisfying - what goes around comes around.

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By Grazer

edited Sep 19, 2006 - 8:38 PM

So are they going to start having the phone companies record the content of our calls? Because you never know, they might need to search historic data for evidence after I have been convicted.

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By Tenoq

posted Sep 19, 2006 - 7:46 PM

Child predators? Bulls***. They're targetting cases that make money, not cost money: copyright infringement. Big brother takes another step?

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By drumcat

posted Sep 19, 2006 - 7:41 PM

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

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By zenarcher

posted Sep 19, 2006 - 6:47 PM

Of course one would expect the government to base their request on using the information to prosecute pedophiles. Why? Because no one in their right mind would object. As is the nature of government intervention, you can count on the fact that investigations would not stop there. Once the authority is granted and the system in place, you will see financial transactions and records being checked for the I.R.S. as well as any number of other federal, state and local agencies joining in on the information gathering.

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By BIL

posted Sep 19, 2006 - 5:27 PM

Mr. Gonzales is just another Bush flunky (appointee) trying to legalize invasion of privacy. Many of the intrusions have already been ruled illegal. I have no use for sexual predators of any sort. This is not really about that this is about the government culling more and more data that should be none of their business. I truely belive they will be the downfall of our nation if not stopped by the courts. We can not be destroyed by outsiders, but we can be by politicians and jerks like Bush that don't really care about anything except their own agenda. Look at what he has been saying about Colin Powell (Secretary of State and military leader) and the way he has been saying that the people have no right to think and speak out about his decisions. He is obviously not mentally stable. This country was founded on the right of the people to speak out and differ from the elected officials.

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By davewalden

posted Sep 19, 2006 - 7:47 PM

Open your mind.... not your mouth. You are a whining Bush Basher. Probably a liberal too... It will be the liberal judges and the ACLU that will be the downfall of the U.S. Please do not make me cite countless examples to prove my point.

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By Reap_r

edited Sep 20, 2006 - 2:35 PM

mmmm...namecalling...
The final refuge of the inneffectual and powerless.

While I agree that the ACLU and liberal judges are indeed quite harmful, they are not the worst problem we have.

In my opinion the biggest threat we face is to undermine the constitution.

Although to be honest, liberal judges and the ACLU have done thier best to re-create America into a purely secular society that embraces moral relatavism and rejects the idea of God.

The problem with that is that the constitution loses all meaning if God does not exist in some consistent form. Bear with me, I will explain: If there is no higher power which has defined man's rights and that stands in authority over anything instituted by men, then our rights are whatever the strongest among us say they are. Besides being self defeating (how can you say that there are absolutely no absolutes), moral relatavism is extremely dangerous to liberty. This philosophy has been used for thousands of years to justify atrocities. I feel that if the ends justify the means but the means are wrong, then the ends become irrelevant...so then the means must be constantly examined in light of natural law (golden rule) and the rights of man.

Sorry to bring this conversation down to such a low level (philosophy) but I just can't help myself when I see comments like this.

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By AntiochMedia

posted Sep 19, 2006 - 9:31 PM

Bush has appointed numerous 'dubious' people to his cabinet. His cabinet and his administration was planned in the late 90s under the name 'The Project for a New American Century'.

http://www.newamericancentury.org/
http://en.wikipedia.org/..._a_new_american_century

If you look at the list of members of PNAC and the history of Bush appointees - you'll notice a very scary connection.

So what's the big scary deal with PNAC? They propositioned Bill Clinton to take out Saddam in 1997... that's a good thing I guess (?!) and they argued that securing the oil pipeline in Iraq would be best for the world if it were done by the US... which okay ... if you are super patriotic and really think that America is the best - then yeah that's good ... and ... they stated that the only way to convince our country to go to war would be if something on the scale of Pearl Harbor were to happen.

Clinton didn't listen.

3 Years later, the president of PNAC became the Vice President of the United States of America, bringing along Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz who engineered a war of profit against Iraq and used 911 to deceive the public. Rumsfeld was assisted in doing this by establishing the office of special plans:

http://en.wikipedia.org/...Office_of_Special_Plans

Which undermined the CIA and helped to convince the public that we should go to war with Iraq.

While this is greatly off the topic as far as Gonzalez is concerned -- Gonzalez has his Houston ties with Enron as with every appointee (except Condi - God Bless her soul that she sold!). Gonzalez has taken endorsements, lied to congress, encouraged detainee abuse, and worst of all -- he's a total douche!!!!

Sorry for the rant - but one last thing -

The word 'liberal' is not a bad word. Some people believe that calling someone a liberal is like calling them a c*nt. The proper definition as far as politics go is someone who interprets the consitituion liberally, not by definition.

This administration is made up of traditional liberalists as proven and fortified(!) by the patriot act and the NSA wire tapping that has greatly reduced our rights to freedom of speech and privacy.

What on earth are you thinking when you defend this group of corrupt, immoral opportunists who prey upon the good faith of the faith based movement's vote for the interests of their big business rolodex?

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By Wyojake

edited Sep 19, 2006 - 8:56 PM

I know we are suppose to pity the blind and the deaf. but puleaze recognize the sleeze you call a good thing before you all go to hell with them. there is no rapture for you.

know when you support a man who doesn't know how shi**y his shorts are (or how bloody his hands are) you will succumb to the smell. and saying it smells like flowers doesn't protect you. Supporting fascism makes you a fascist, whether you quietly ignore it or dance down the street in support of it.

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By Grazer

posted Sep 19, 2006 - 8:36 PM

You are a whining Bush Basher

Bush needs bashed...alot.

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By bsf

edited Sep 19, 2006 - 8:45 PM

bush doesn't need to be bashed at all.
he just needs a babysitter.

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By Xypheri

posted Sep 19, 2006 - 8:24 PM

Please cite your countless examples.

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By RWW

posted Sep 19, 2006 - 6:50 PM

Well said, BIL! I am ashamed of this administration's actions as most thinking US citizens should be. I cringe at what the next two years could bring.

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By alexsch8

posted Sep 19, 2006 - 4:25 PM

I think using the data to catch pedophiles and sexual predators is good. I would object though if this data is made openly available to others, such as the music industry.
As an ISP I would dread having to keep track of all these activities. The amount of storage and administration is just not feasible.

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By Wyojake

posted Sep 19, 2006 - 8:51 PM

haliburton or debold would get the contract maybe even Tom Delay :-)

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By AaronDobbins

posted Sep 19, 2006 - 7:20 PM

I think that's the hesitation from everyone who is wary of allowing ISPs to store this information for the government. Of course no one wants to protect child predators and pedophiles, but we also don't want the government to start "extending" the law to allow other agencies to look at the information. The same hesitation applies to the warrantless wiretapping.

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