RSSUnified Next-Gen DVD Format Unlikely
By Ed Oswald | Published May 26, 2005, 12:55 PM
It seems as if the promise of a unified next-generation DVD format may be dead for the near future. This comes after comments from Toshiba president Tadashi Okamura to a group of Japanese business leaders that seemed to indicate that the two sides were far from any kind of agreement.
Sony, however, seemed to hold out hope while at the same time stipulating that any agreement must be in its format's favor. The inability to compromise is the key reason why the two sides cannot seem to work out their differences.
"The only hope is if we can reach an agreement in a week or two on a new format that is not that different from Blu-ray physically," Ken Kutaragi, the creator of Sony's PlayStation game console told a group of reporters. PlayStation 3 is expected to use Blu-ray as its primary disc format.
Toshiba is the creator of the HD-DVD disc, which it has touted as the superior of the two formats for its backward compatibility. HD-DVD discs actually have two layers of data that would allow the discs to still play on older players.
Sony's Blu-ray, on the other hand, has the backing of many computer manufacturers. Apple Computer signed on as a Blu-ray supporter earlier this year.
Toshiba's Okamura said that he realizes that a format war is not what the industry wants. "We may actually have a situation where merchandise from both sides is put on store shelves. But the market would not allow that situation to last very long," he said.
Industry leaders had hoped to avoid a format war much like the VHS-Beta battle over two decades ago. However, this week's comments seem to indicate that at least for a little while, consumers will be forced to choose one technology over the other.
Toshiba plans to have HD-DVD players available by the holiday season, with Sony expecting to debut Blu-ray early next year.
An HD-DVD disk does play in older DVD players, and in fact was successfully tested in over 200 players by Toshiba last year.
To date, Sony has not made ANY announcements regarding how they would handle the transition from DVD to Blu-ray - which means that manufacturers would have to produce two discs - one in the older DVD format and one in Blu-ray which would incur an additional expense.
We have not seen any tests of Blu-ray discs in traditonal DVD players, so until then - nobody can say for sure that Blu-ray discs would play in older DVD players. No reputable journalist could write that into an article because there is no basis in fact for it from Sony themselves.
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A HD-DVD will NOT play on a standard DVD player. Current DVDs are read with red lasers. Both HD-DVD and Blu-ray use blue lasers to read the disc. Blue light has a smaller wavelength than red light, which allows for the greater density of data storage. A red laser could not physically read the data on a HD-DVD or blu-ray disc because the wavelength of the light in the red laser is too great.
“We have not seen any tests of Blu-ray discs in traditonal DVD players.” The reason we haven’t seen any tests of blu-ray disks in a traditional DVD player is because anyone with a most basic knowledge would know it would not work, and neither would a HD-DVD. The only way either disk would play in a standard DVD player is to have standard DVD layers on the disc. It is physically impossible for a HD-DVD or blu-ray disc to be read with a red laser.
But let’s just ignore the electromagnetic spectrum for a minute and assume that the red laser in current players could read HD-DVD discs; there’s still the problem of the codecs. Most current DVD players only support MPEG2 while the HD-DVD standard also encorporate VC-1 and H.264. Since MPEG2 is over ten years old and rather inefficient for encoding HD video most releases will be encoded in VC-1 or H.264. Since the majority of current DVD players lack the software and processing power to decode VC-1 or H.264 video there is absolutely no chance of you playing a HD-DVD on a current DVD player.
So, either Toshiba have mastered the art of some form of black magic that changes the wavelength of light, increases the processing power in the player and universally adjusts the firmware of any DVD player to add two additional video codecs (not to mention the audio codecs) or you’re talking nonsense.
It seems the only people supporting HD-DVD are those without a clue, and they’re supporting it with inaccurate or completely false information. It just amazes me that people come out with nonsense statements from thin air with seemingly know knowledge of what they’re talking about.
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From Toshiba themselves, direct quote.
"Toshiba also announced a double-sided, dual-layer hybrid ROM disc comprised of dual-layer HD DVD-ROM side and dual-layer DVD-ROM side. The hybrid disc can store 30GB of high-definition content on the HD DVD-ROM side and 8.5GB of standard-definition content on the DVD-ROM dual layer side. More than 84 million DVD players and recorders were produced worldwide in 2004 alone. The standard definition content of the new hybrid discs can be replayed on these platforms, while their owners will also be able to enjoy high-definition content from the same source when they purchase HD DVD players in the future. The new disc further prepares the way for a smooth transition from DVD to HD DVD."
Again, HD-DVD discs will play in older DVD players, which has been a hallmark of the format.
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“HD-DVD discs will play in older DVD players”
No, it won’t. HD-DVD discs will NOT play in older DVD players.
Read what you posted man!!! This is a “hybrid ROM disc” containing HD-DVD and standard DVD layers, not simply a HD-DVD. It is essentially a DVD and a HD-DVD glued back to back with the DVD on one side and the HD-DVD on the other. A standard DVD player can only read the standard DVD side. It cannot read the HD-DVD layers and will not read or play a HD-DVD disc.
To say a hybrid ROM disc will play in older DVD players is correct as it’s the same as saying a DVD will play in a DVD player. To say a HD-DVD will play in a standard DVD player (which is what you keep saying) is absolute and total nonsense.
It is physically impossible for a HD-DVD disc to be read by a red laser DVD player. It is impossible for a MPEG2 DVD player to decode VC-1 or H.264. A HD-DVD will not play in older DVD players!
As I’ve mentioned JVC demonstrated a four layer hybrid disc which has two blu-ray layers and two DVD layers, which would play on a standard DVD player. It is equally possible to produce hybrid DVD/blu-ray ROM discs as DVD/HD-DVD hybrid discs. However unlike the Toshiba disc you have mentioned which is double sided with two layers on each side the JVC hybrid disc is single sided with four layers on one side. I hate double sided discs since it's hard to get them out the box without touching the data side, so I'd much rather have the single sided blu-ray solution. I also think double sided discs are more expensive to make than two single sided discs which is why you always get two disc packs instead of a single double sided disc
In conclusion then:
1) HD-DVDs will not play on a standard DVD player as you repeatedly claim.
2) Hybrid discs have been demonstrated for both formats that can be played in a standard DVD player, but the Toshiba disc only has 30GB HD-DVD + 9.6GB DVD capacity and has the inconvenience of being double sided, while the blu-ray disc had 50GB blu-ray + 9.6GB DVD all one side.
Therefore Blu-ray offers superior backward compatibility if that is the way the industry had to go to make the change more gradual. Personally though I think we’re more likely to see separate releases in favour of hybrid discs of either format.
Regardless, for there end consumer HD-DVD offers substantially less than blu-ray, but sadly in most cases the end consumer is as clueless as yourself and unable to make an informed decision.
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I haven't heard back on the email I sent or seen you correct your error in the above article. I'll repost me email here:
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Your article is a little misleading as to how that backward
compatibility works. As far as I understand it a HD-DVD disc that
doesn't have a special DVD layer physically cannot be read by a DVD
player. The laser used to read HD-DVD is in the blue spectrum & the
laser used in DVD players is red. The physical differences in
wavelengths would make it impossible for a red laser to read a blue
laser disc, thus the need for new players. Otherwise HD-DVD would
have no need to add on a DVD layer, & they alread had announcement
about that technology. The native format for both HD-DVD & Blu-ray is
dual layer of their own standards. HD-DVD is losing a HD-DVD layer &
replacing it with a DVD layer.
Quote: "Memory-Tech will start mass production late next year of
read-only discs that can contain data stored in both DVD and HD-DVDs
(High Definition/High Density-DVDs) layers, a company executive says."
Quote: "The discs contain two layers, an upper DVD layer with a
capacity of 4.7GB and a lower HD-DVD layer with a15GB capacity, says
Masato Otsuka, general manager of Memory-Tech's engineering
department."
These quotes are from the PCWorld article you reference in your
previous article.
http://www.pcworld.com/n...cle/0,aid,118869,00.asp
This announcement refers to a transitional combination of the DVD &
HD-DVD formats. 1 layer is DVD & the other is HD-DVD.
JVC did the same with Blu-ray a few weeks later, December 24, 2004.
http://www.jvc-victor.co.../press/2004/bd-dvd.html
Quote: "The new Blu-ray/ DVD combo ROM disc has a one-side readout,
triple layer structure comprised of an outside Blu-ray disc (BD) layer
and inner DVD dual layer (Fig. 1). The outer BD layer is capable of
storing high definition video signals up to a capacity of 25GB. The
inner DVD dual layer can store up to 8.5GB of standard definition
video signals. During Blu-ray reproduction, blue laser read the outer
BD layer, while red laser read the inner DVD dual layer during DVD
reproduction"
Quote: "Users that do not have a Blu-ray disc player can view the
video content at standard definition using their current DVD player,
and enjoy the same content at high definition resolution when
upgrading to a Blu-ray disc player in the future."
Quote: "The company is also working on a Blu-ray/ DVD combo ROM disc
with an even larger 58.5GB storage capacity. The proposed disc will be
comprised of a 50GB Blu-ray dual layer and 8.5GB DVD dual layer
structure."
NEITHER format can be read by DVD players in its native form (blue
laser layers). BOTH need a special DVD layer(s) in order to do so.
As you can see from these links & quotes, your statement that "Toshiba
is the creator of the HD-DVD disc, which it has touted as the superior
of the two formats for its backward compatibility", is erroneous. If
anything, backward compatibility is worse on HD-DVD as it only
supports 1 DVD layer. Blu-ray on the other hand can handle dual
layers of DVD content.
Thank you.
- DaVinci42
P.S. If you are curious, I initially supported the HD-DVD standard.
But after finding out that it isn't a purely Sony standard (unlike
memory sticks & beta max), my research showed the technical
superiority of Blu-ray. The ONLY advantage HD-DVD still has is that
initial production costs will be lower because of the ease with which
DVD production lines can be retrofitted.
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You people aren't listening. NEITHER format will natively play in a DVD player. BOTH machines will play regular DVDs. So there is no need for a second player.
HD-DVD can add a single DVD layer to play in a DVD drive.
Blu-ray can add dual DVD layers too play in a DVD drive.
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For the record, I was listening :)
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Despite the research and hype presented these past few years, Sony's Blu-Ray technology is looking to be on par or perhaps in the end be a little bit inferior to Toshiba's HD-DVD.
Unfortunately Sony has already invested vast, unrecoverable amounts of money into Blu-Ray, and products that will incorporate this technology. The Playstation 3 being one example. Because of this, for Sony to merge their technology with Toshiba's, will make the hundreds of millions they've invested all go to waste. Also, this will cause a delay of their PlayStation console, of which must be released as soon as possible to compete with the X360, and minimize market loss in the game console industry (multi-billion dollar industry).
I believe the merging of standards is not a pride issue, but more importantly, an economical one.
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Explain to me how blu-ray is inferior to HD-DVD? The highest capacity disc we’ve seen from Toshiba is a 45GB three layer disc, which is still smaller than the dual layer 50GB blu-ray.
TDK recently a four layer 100GB 2x (72Mbit/s) disc which they’ve submitted to the blu-ray disc association for approval as standard. While that might not be showing up until 2007 dual layer blu-ray discs are still 11% larger than three layer HD-DVDs.
The two formats support the same codecs so it just comes down to the physical media and with a substantially greater capacity and higher data transfer rate exactly how does Blu-ray look “a little bit inferior” to HD-DVD?
It seems to me that your opinion is entirely based on a dislike of Sony than any real information. I'm not a huge fan of Sony myself, with the poor reliability their products have offered in recent years, but I want the highest quality audio and video possible on the next generation optical movie disc standard and in that respect I’m fully behind blu-ray.
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HD-DVD is no more backwardly compatible than Blu-ray as neither format can be read by a current DVD player. Backward compatibility is achieved by adding a standard DVD layer to the disc, which is equally achievable on either format.
Up until recently HD-DVD could only have two layers, which leaves only 4.8GB for the DVD movie and 15GB for the HD movie, which isn’t enough for either. Toshiba did demonstrate a 3 layer disc last week, but that still leaves insufficient space for either the standard definition or the HD movie.
JVC demonstrated a blu-ray disc with two DVD layers and two blu-ray layers giving 9.8GB for the DVD movie and 50GB for the HD movie, making blu-ray superior for backwards compatibility.
There is a misconception that HD-DVD is cheaper, though there is no data to back this up. Even if it were cheaper it would make no difference to the end consumer and both formats will have the same retail price. The manufacturing costs for VHS tapes are far higher than that of DVD and yet they sell for significantly less, because studios set their price point based on the market and not on the media cost.
Players of both formats will play current DVDs, both support the same three video codecs and both will be priced at the same level. Ultimately it comes down to storage capacity and HD-DVD does not have sufficient capacity for HD movies with lossless HD audio, nor is a single layer sufficient for a standard definition movie. HD DVD will have to use a higher level off compression leading to low quality, artefact ridden video and audio. Blu-ray has sufficient storage for HD video and audio without the need to compress them aggressively, so is the only sensible choice.
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Pfft, optical disk: they're so flimsy. HDDs are the way to go. Maybe if they developed the lasers in them some more we'd have more bits stored per 1cm^2 (or cubed, if they bother to go into multilayer) *platter too*
Optical disks are a economically cheaper alternative to buying products. ;-P
Unless everyone in Australia is about to become the next Steven Spielberg, I doubt there's any valid use for the average user. If Australia grows a spine, refuses the US-FTA and adds a clause to allow people to backup copyrighted material they've purchased THEN you'd have a practical reason.
Comparing LASERs: if you bother to learn the light spectrum and frequency I'd think Ultra Violet would be the way to go. Just increase it's intensity for really small writes and you'd have a pretty good HDD.
Scratch n Bin it: you'd need air tight cartridges for 1TB+ optical disks. Not having them would just be idiocy as users are mostly likely to scratch it or dust will render a few Gig corrupt for that "session" of reading/writing.
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BlueRay has more capacity and a faster data transfer rate, and they can add even more layers to add additional capacity in the future. The only thing HD-DVD seems to have going for it is backwards compatibility, but it is likely that Blu-ray players will support both Blu-Ray and "classic" DVD, just as DVD players today (or at least computer DVD drives) can also read CDs, making the only disadvantage the fact that the actual Blu-ray disc doesn't have a DVD-compatibility layer like HD-DVD can.
The other disadvantage is for both discs--the data density. The more data you try to pack in a 12-cm circular disc, the more I fear a simple scratch may make some data unreadable. (I know Blu-ray is working on more scratch-resistant surfaces; don't know about HD-DVD).
Back to the formats ... in the future the larger capacity may be more important, as will the faster data transfer rate. We'll get over any compatibility problems, which would probably eventually be an issue anyway with either format. (IIRC, HD-DVDs can't hold as much when one layer is dedicated to "classic" DVD compatibility, and they'd eventually become "non-compatible" if/when manufacturers decided to give up backwards compatibility in favor of extra storage.)
That being said, geeks don't always know what's best, and someday we may be forced to welcome our new HD-DVD overlords. :-)
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Like they expected them to agree? Unless you get a third non-bias party involved there is no way they'd agree on a format.
Although Sony of course is "stuck" since they already plan to have Blu-Ray in the PS3.
Personally I like the idea of HD-DVD so that I don't have to have two players hooked up as I would with Blu-Ray (at least how it sounds to me)
Even so I think it will be a couple years before the average consumer is even interested. There are still hold-outs on VHS as it is. Plus many people don't have a TV to take advantage of what high def DVD can produce.
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In the end, customers will vote....no wait, I was about to say customers were smart enough to decide. How stupid of me. Customer will buy whatever Walmart stocks for them!
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Who ever comes out first will be a clear winner as history has shown.
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It has? I don't think history has as much to do with it as do things like cost to the consumer, availability, compatibility. There is also the possibility that both formats are outright rejected and some new unannounced format takes over.
As for the consumer, they are slow to adopt anyway, so this won't be decided this year and likely not next, either...
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I can't understand why anyone would want to use the HD-DVD format. It isn't as dynamic as Blu-ray. So you have to buy another DVD player. You would have to do that anyway, and you wouldn't throw out your old one, so what's the big deal.
Going half way to be backwards compatible is just not a good enough reason to support the HD-DVD format.
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I agree. There is not point in HD-DVD. To me it just sounds like SACD that sony made. I've barely seen any of them!
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Not everyone plans to buy a new DVD player anytime soon (or much later even for my case). Thus, it will be a plus if my current Pioneer DVD player can play HD-DVD too (no need to splash money on a new Blu-ray player).
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