RSSWarner Hybrid Discs to Premiere at CES
By Scott M. Fulton, III | Published January 4, 2007, 6:47 PM
Though the formal press release has yet to be delivered, press services including Reuters were formally alerted this afternoon that movies made using hybrid multiple-layer, Blu-Ray/HD DVD/DVD disc manufacturing system for which Warner Home Video applied for a patent earlier this year, will be formally revealed to the public by Warner Home Video next week at CES 2007.
It may seem like magic, but Warner's format, which reports say will be christened Total HD, can sandwich up to three data layers atop one another - not one format on one side and another on the flip side - with each layer capable of being read by its respective player. Up to 22 configurations were described in the application, including mixtures using the high-capacity DVD format SD-9, with the objective being to create a single disc that can be operated in more than one type of player - conceivably as many as three.
The key is enabling what the application calls transmissivity of the lower layers in the sandwich, by reducing the reflectivity of those above them. Warner's inventors claimed to have discovered that high reflectivity was not entirely necessary for even existing players to read the signals from thinner, underlying layers - transmissivity could theoretically be reduced from 100% to as low as 12%, and still be effective.
A Total HD disc would not need a hybrid player such as the one LG plans to announce next week, and may solve the problem of media retailers having to divide their high-def shelves into separate segments.
"The Warner Bros. announcement is potentially more advantageous to the market [than the LG announcement]," said NPD director of industry analysis Ross Rubin this afternoon, "because it allows retailers to stock one copy of the movie that will play on both [high-definition] players, and it could have more of a market impact too, because even though consumers don't welcome paying more for a universal product, they're more likely to pay a few bucks more for the content than conceivably hundreds of dollars more for the player that supports both formats."
But the party may not be over so soon for LG. If its hybrid player announcement picks up the anticipated level of momentum, Rubin continued, other manufacturers could conceivably follow along in a sort of domino effect.
But studios have already had plenty of opportunity to support both high-def formats if they wanted to simply by producing titles for both, and so far, Warner and Paramount appear to be the only ones willing to do so. Even if Warner were able and willing to license its hybrid format to other studios (which it presumably would), their notorious egos - as exemplified by the stalemate in the format war to this point - might not allow any of them to be the first to "cave" to pressure.
Setting aside the studio wrestling match, however, Warner's announcement, once it comes, could technically be as ground-breaking for the industry as Columbia Records' initial unveiling of the LP record album format in 1948. It may also be the star development of this year's CES, even if only Warner's own titles ever come to bear the Total HD brand.
what?! another patent?! screw that. I'm staying with theora/vorbis.
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|Good luck finding any movies in those formats. ;-)
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|I think it would be great if the DVD plays as advertised. Most people want convenience. My only complaint about the two competitive formats is DRM which I think is utter crap. It would have been nice in the Beta Max and VHS days if a player was made to play both formats.
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|People hate flipper discs because there is no label but having a flipper with a rival format on the other side might be enough reason for some people not to even consider buying it.
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|These aren't double sided though, the HD-DVD and Blu-Ray content would be on the same side using different layers.
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|But SINGLE layer. So in the case of Blu-Ray 25GB, in the case of HD-DVD 15GB.
Thanks, but no thanks...
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|to hell with sony and all their products... they are untrustworthy, dont you all see that?!
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|have you ever played any of the playstations?
have you used a memory stick from sony?
Or are you just mainly focused on one glitch and trying to whine about it?
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|What benefits does a memory stick offer over a secure digital memory card?
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|It costs a lot more and it doesn't work in very many devices. Oh wait, you said benefits. Nevermind.
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|What Like Microsoft, and the new improved Xbox360?
Talk about telling lies, they even managed to have all their owners acutally believing the original Xbox360 was capabable of HMDI via the vapourware HDMI lead, now guess what, the lead is not possible, you have to buy the new Xbox360 console..
http://www.engadget.com/...evealed-codename-zephyr/
The original Xbox360 is obsolete after a year... LOL....
Not only that, Microsoft admit, HD-DVD is likely to be the next Betamax..
http://www.joystiq.com/2...x-switch-to-blu-ray-sti/
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|Isn't that just a picture of an old Xbox 360 development kit? Either that or perhaps a photoshop. I'll wait until I hear something from Microsoft, until then I am calling this fake. If it turns out to be real, it's still no big deal. New console revisions are nothing new and this will NOT make the current 360 obsolete . No 360 game requires HDMI, not one.
Now for your second "article"...
"[we] don't want to charge customers $200 extra for something that may be the next Betamax."
Notice they said "may", just as it may succeed. They did not say it was "likely" to fail. Nice way to twist the truth there; you should go into politics. Personally I congratulate them on this move as they are not forcing customers to pay for what may be a flop format. Blu-Ray may be the next Betamax also, and if so PS3 owners got screwed. As your article plainly stated though, no one knows.
Just curious, are you Mark Gillespie posting under a new name, or his long lost twin?
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|Speed? 3x the write speed of SD. Thanks my camera works really well when taking fast shots.
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|You can think that your beloved Microsoft would not do this to you, but here is more evidence around on the net that Micro$oft is about to dump on it's 8 million xbox 360 owners.
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|My beloved Microsoft? I don't have an xbox or a 360. I'm just pointing out what a fanboy muppet you are Mark Jr. In case you haven't noticed this article has absolutely nothing to do with either Microsoft or game consoles.
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|Have a go at Slimberg, he started the mud flinging...
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|What the heck does Microsoft being untrustworthy have to do with Sony being untrustworthy?
I think you missed the point.
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|Sorry. Not true. High speed SD cards are faster, and cheaper.
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|Overpriced most of the time, here at my country MicroSD cost $150, but M2 cost exactly double the amount!
It's a shame really, because Sony Ericsson do make really nice phone
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|Please... and you were the first to chime in and fling twice as much back. Mature...
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|IMHO it was pretty obvious Microsoft was going to release a second revision Xbox 360. A 20GB hdd wasn't going to big enough for its 5 years predicted life. Im not too sure why HDMI was not included in the original 360, perhaps cost? Providing all games will work on both versions I don't really see the problem. Nintendo has released new versions of the same product for years just look at the GBA range, it has had at least 3 updates of exactly the same product, the DS has already had 2. Technology changes quickly and things don't last as long as they used too, unfortunate (for your wallet) but true. If HD-DVD becomes the standard next gen format I would expect to see another revision of the 360 in 2-3 years with an HD-DVD drive as well. 5 years is too long for a console to be static. I am sure you will see Sony release an updated PS3 in a few years with a bigger HDD as well.
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|Sony already allow you to swap the HDD in your PS3, the instruction book details what type you need..
Sony understand the console market, it's obvious Microsoft don't by increasing the Xbox360 feature set. Why? Take Sony, they have never added features during a products lifespan, the slim PS2 added Ethernet, but that was already a extra for the original PS2, they came out with new smaller models, same functionality. The only other change during the entire PS2 life, was the removal of the unused firewire port.
Nothing added that was not available for earlier models, only cost downs.
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|Thanks for your reply, you raise some interesting points.
I think this is less about Microsoft not understand the console and more adapting it while things change in the home entertainment market. The HE market is going through a huge change at the moment with the push to HD. The last time something like this happened was from B/W to Colour. Not much happened during the lifetime of the PS1 or for the majority of the PS2 lifetime. We have one third of the way through a very big transition from SD to HD that will take several years (if not a decade or two). Microsoft updating the 360 with a newer revision is a natural and sensible decision IMHO. Microsoft wanted the 360 out before the PS3. I don't think many people thought the 360 would be out when it came out, not many people thought Microsoft would be able to get it out that quickly but they did. Because of this they rushed a bit, rather than build in things such as HDMI, WiFi and a higher capacity hard disk they cut corners. This is obvious now, and was obvious back when the 360 was released it is just most/all (including myself) were blind to it (as you would be). Microsoft are now able to introduce these new features and re-release the console as such. Yes it is unfair for those who have already bought a console but that is life. If Microsoft bring out a HDMI cable or adapter for the current 360 (I am not sure if this is possible however) this way nothing was added that was not available for earlier models, just as you state regarding the PS2.
I own a 360 and while I am a little annoyed I know I can sell my current console on eBay and use that towards a new model 360, sure I will lose some money however I have always had a 360 for the past 13 or so months, I cannot expect that for free. Companies update their systems, that is life, with how fast the home entertainment market is at present I wouldn't be surprised to see a revision to all the consoles in the next few years. The upgrades are optional however and will not prohibit you from playing a 360 game, it will work regardless of which console you have.
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|So if you put one of these discs in the LG Player from the other article, which format does it play? Or will it explode trying to decide? :)
TowerDave
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|Its like crossing the streams... you just don't do it! ;)
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|The hybrid disks are not new, they work at reduced capacity, thus reduced quality.
No thanks i'll stick to 50GB Blu-Ray thanks, that where the quality is...
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|Video compressed with MPEG-4 is where the quality is at. Since Blu-Ray only uses the older low quality MPEG-2 compression, HD-DVD wins when it comes to video quality.
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|I'm not a Blu-Ray supporter but they have been using H.264 and VC1 for some time now.
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|If you want to talk codecs, it's worth mentioning that HD-DVD only supports MPEG2 and VC1, Blu-Ray supports MPEG2, H264, VC1.
There is nothing inherintly wrong with MPEG2, it's low compression. on a 50GB disk, MPEG2 looks better than VC1.
Early Blu-Ray titles were MPEG2 on 25GB discs, which was a bad more, but Sony were forced into it, by disc manufacturing issues.
50GB titles are now a plenty, and looking great in VC1 and MPEG2.
If you want further proof HD-DVD is inferior quality, check the data transfer rates between HD-DVD and Blu-Ray, Blue-Ray is over 40% higher, HD-DVD is already hitting the ceiling on available bandwidth in some movies.
Capacity
Blu-ray = 50GB
HD-DVD = 30GB
Max Bandwidth (Video+Audio)
Blu-ray = 54.0 Mb/sec
HD-DVD = 36.5 Mb/sec
you don't seem very smarterthanme...
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|"If you want to talk codecs, it's worth mentioning that HD-DVD only supports MPEG2 and VC1, Blu-Ray supports MPEG2, H264, VC1."
That is incorrect, Blu-Ray and HD-DVD both support exactly the same codecs.
"HD-DVD is already hitting the ceiling on available bandwidth in some movies."
Once again you are wrong. A bit rate of 36.55 MB/s is more than enough for full 1080 video. Blu-Ray does have a higher bit rate, but it is of no benefit for movies. Especially using modern codecs like VC1. It's nothing more than marketing.
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|Here's the problem with Blu-Ray. First, HD-DVD titles were released from the start with the best HD video quality available (MPEG 4). Furthermore, every single HD-DVD title ever released has at least had superior Dolby Digital Plus sound (and in some cases even better Dolby TrueHD sound).
Since early Blu-Ray titles were released using sub par MPEG 2 video and older Dolby Digital 5.1 channel sound (the exact same crappy sound as standard DVD's) this means people who bought Blu-Ray players got ripped off because movie studios falsely claimed their early Blu-Ray titles were HD when in fact they obviously were not.
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|Well that solves the pricey licensing issue of Blu-ray saying you can't play their discs on a hybrid player.
wOOt!
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|Most people are playing the waiting game. Netflix is great because they rent both formats. So far we've mainly watched movies that I wouldn't buy, just ones I was interested in seeing.
The dual format disc makes sense but someone has to win this thing, this will only prolong the waiting.
Comcast is going to roll out same day releases for On Demand later this year, I'll be able to watch Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix the same day it comes out in the theater on my own projector in HD....for four bucks.
Thank Warner Brothers for that, and the dual format discs.
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|I thought they would be releasing the movies the same day the DVD was released, not the same day it hit the theaters?
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|The only problem with Netflix is if you get a damaged and unplayable Bluray or HD-DVD disc the replacement Netflix sends will be a standard definition DVD.
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|I heard it was the same day as the theatrical release, I'll have to check on that.
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|A multiformat disc is awesome. Currently DVD-R and DVD+R are different formats, but the same players will read them both. Now, apparently, similar (albeit entirely different technically), functionality will exist for Blu-Ray and HD-DVD. Personally, I'll wait a year before moving up to Hi-Def - don't want to end up with the ''BETAMAX'' instead of the ''VHS'' in the format war :-)
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|DVD-R and DVD+R weren't all that different though and more importantly once they are burned they become plain old DVDs. Burning them was the problem, once burned you could read them on any DVD player though. It was all about greed, the side for +R caused the whole mess because they wanted more royalties. Other than that there was no reason to have two formats that basically do the exact same thing. It's even sillier now with dual format burners out.
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|Eh, not entirly true. A LOT of first and even second gen DVD players could't read DVD+R. Or was it DVD-R? Christ I don't remember anymore.
Still, there's a pile of early players that can't read the discs--whatever the one. ;)
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|The first version of DVD-R was not even designed to be compatible with standard set top DVD players. Why do you think the DVD forum released version 1.1 DVD-R discs and later version 2.0 DVD-R discs? This never happened with DVD+R which was compatible with most set top DVD players from the start.
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|You have that backwards. DVD-R was designed from the very beginning to be compatible with all DVD players and is still the most supported format for that purpose, though practically all players today support both formats just fine.
The new revisions were released to enable support for things like copy protection or faster write speeds, not because of compatibility issues. From the specifications:
"As described in the previous section, consumer-oriented DVD-R for General discs and DVD-RW version 1.1 discs are provided with a copy management mechanism that exists physically on the disc."
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|Despite what the DVD Forum might claim, DVD+R single layer discs were readable by 99% of second generation and later set top DVD players upon their initial release. DVD-R single layer discs hardly worked on any set top players upon their initial release.
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|Sorry, I disagree.
http://www.videohelp.com/dvd
http://www.digitalfaq.com/media/dvdformats.htm
http://www.cdrinfo.com/Sections/DVDMediaFormats/
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|I've yet to encounter a set top DVD player that can't play a DVD+R single layer disc. I've even used one of JVC's first second generation set top DVD players (meaning one of the first JVC DVD players to fix the problem of not being able to read CD-R's) to successfully play a DVD+R single layer video disc.
Basically if a manufacturer of a set top DVD player specifically mentions DVD-R compatibility it will definitely play a DVD+R single layer disc. The reverse is usually not true at all. Show me a set top DVD player that will refuse to play DVD+R single layer discs and only play DVD-R discs.
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|"Show me a set top DVD player that will refuse to play DVD+R single layer discs and only play DVD-R discs."
I believe I already provided you that info in the links above which you apparently ignored, but here are a few examples:
Afreey LD-2060
Aiwa HT-DV1
Amstrad DV-200
Apex AD-1201
Audiovox D1501
Curtis DVD5038
Daewoo DVG-9000N
Denon DVD-5000
Emerson EWR-10D4
Grundig GDV 100
Hitachi HTD-K170
JVC RX-DV31SL
Koss KD230
LG LH-C6235
Magnavox MDV435
Panasonic CV37
Sanyo DVD-SL20
Just because you have yet to encounter one doesn't mean they don't exist. One last time, DVD-R was designed to be more compatible, was more compatible, and to this day still has a slight edge. I've given plenty of sources for that but if you choose to ignore them so be it.
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|That's a load of crap. DVD-R came out five years before DVD+R even existed and it has always been more compatible with home players, especially the older ones. If you're going to post nonsense go find a less technical forum where people aren't as likely to call you out on it, smarterthanfew. Might I suggest Nickjr.com?
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|Thank you, Banquo. Some people are seriously and arrogantly ignorant.
I had a Panasonic CV37. I tried 7 different brands of DVD+R discs, and every one of them would cause my player to spend 5 minutes trying to figure out what was in the drive, then give up. The first DVD-R I tried worked fine.
The label on the front of the unit stated "DVD-R"... and they meant it! :)
I grew severely tired of trying to explain the differences to people who would ask about the different DVD-recordable formats when I worked retail. I truly empathize with those in retail outlets who are now faced with the "Blu-ray vs HD DVD" questions.
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